My main class is the hardest, yours is the easiest, and the rest are medium.
It can also go this way: my main class is the hardest, and the class which keeps destroying me everyday is the easiest.
So your saying you play a thief
Hey everyone, the point of this topic is to post your rankings of what you believe is hardest class to play in PvP (sPvP / tPvP) to the easiest.
1- Ranger
2- Engineer
3- Necromancer
4- Elementalist
5- Mesmer
6- Warrior
7- Guardian
8- ThiefSo thief is easiest and ranger is hardest overall, in my opinion.
I totally agree with the OP and here’s why.
1. Ranger- No other class do I find myself waiting for the weapon swap as if it could never come fast enough every ability is used in a fight and timing is crucial.
2. Engineer so many weapons that can be used, postioning is so important due to stationary turrets.
3. Necromancer- Timing Death Shroud/Plague/Lich is so important, as is postioning for wells, a hard class to master.
4. Elementalist- Positioning and timing are vital you need to dart in and get away many times in the course of a fight. Alot of swaps to different elements with good timing are necassary.
5. Mesmer- the only class that rewards standing still, most of the skill comes from rotation and is vastly easier to play then the 4 classes above it. Phase Retreat can actually throw you up walls and ledges making terrain awareness for this class moot.
6. Warrior- With very high dmg, good health and high toughness without building for it this class can make many mistakes and still collect a ton of kills in any Battleground. More skill comes from the build then the playing.
7. Guardian- for a class that survivable they have some descent dmg too, so many protective abilities with only the weakness of being kited. Due to all the protective abilities they can fall back on they can make a ton of mistakes and survive wearing there enemies down.
8. Thief- LOL this guy with more get of jail cards than the monocle wearing old man in monopoly, plus the fastest runner, and highest dmg you can log on this guy day 1 with no clue how to play and feel like a god. The only class I’ve seen rank 1-9 people come in top Number 1 in spvp over and over again. This class will end up being a cautionary tale to future designers in what not to do when making a class.
It’s a condition/toughness bunker spec featuring Shortbow, Axe/Torch.
It cannot defeat good Elementalist/Guardian bunker’s they wont be able to kill the Ranger either and eventually you just have to stop fighting.
They do well agianst burst thieves but a solid condition spec thief will tear them to shreds. A dual dagger Bs thief running macro can still drop them but then again a dual dagger macro thief can drop a full bunker guardian in under 4 secs thanks to the 4 sec daze off steal.
They will also get defeated by good wells necro builds.
All and All they deal less condition dmg then most strong condition specs and perform worse then most bunkers. Most certainly the best of the Ranger builds but far inferior to what many other classes can do with condition/toughness spec.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
Thanks guys and your right Infectious heartseeker is more of a spammable leap. It’s definitely not the players fault for using the quickest route to a win. If you give an easy mode system to defeat other players in pvp of course it will be exploited. It’s up to designers to make sure these things don’t exist, to create an even playing field where skill not broken class mechanics dictates a winner.
1. The Fact that skirmisher, defender, and assaulter +10 pts are rewarded by last hit before downed state, instead of majority of dmg dealt to player. This rewards a random button mashing player, any thief can sit back and spam heartseeker on near dead targets and reap massive glory per match. It also defeats the ideal of versatility as condition spec are clearly penalized over burst in this system.
2. Abilities like hundred blades, pistol whip, should never be placed in a game the ranged weapons unload, rapid fire, volley have exceptable amounts of dmg but the other two when combined with haste are just stupid. You reward players far to much for pressing a button. Sure they can be dodged, countered etc etc but they aren’t being used in 1v1 combat there being spammed in large combat encounters on players already engaged on multiple foes.
3. Your initiative system is so bad I don’t know where to begin. Only 3 innitiative for heartseeker that teleports you onto a target and deals massive dmg. your literally asking players to spam this for insane dps pressing a button. Why would you make crappy unload and weaker death blossom be 5 innitiative and make the most brainless skilless high dmg ability be only 3.
4. Alot of players say ladder system arena death match etc etc is the reason for pvp recent decline but it is truely terrible balance in mechanics that rewards players for using lil to no skill in pvp. So even when you win you feel like you cheated. This is an exploiters paradise.
5. So many of these things are such common sense I doubt they will ever be fixed because anyone using a logical mind would have never implemented them in the first place.
So let me sum up the reasons for why a Reveal Elite have been objected thus far.
Thieves and Mesmer’s do not use stealth so there is really no reason to add a reveal mechanic.
Hardly any players that spvp or tpvp play thief or mesmer so there is truelly no reason to add a skill for classes no one even bothers to play.
Nature’s Spirit is such a great widely used elite that no one would ever consider using reveal over it. And for some reason reveal works completely differently than every other elite and you cannot swap it out for your other elites when out of combat. Encase you happened to see a match with no thieves or mesmers, which we all know happens 99% of the time in spvp and tpvp.
Swinging blindly in the air is already a great and effective way to defeat even the most skilled stealther and reveal would just add insult to injury.
Rangers are already the most powerful pvp class in the game which is why you encounter spvp and tpvp games filled with them stomping Thieves and mesmer’s in 1v1 whenever they are encountered.
Adding this Elite would mean that Dev’s suddenly hit the off switch and leave every broken trait and pet ability because this ability would place a finished sign on the class.
All great soundly logical arguments that prefectly encompass the spvp and tpvp scene found in modern GW2 pvp.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
So let me sum up the reasons for why a Reveal Elite have been objected thus far.
Thieves and Mesmer’s do not use stealth so there is really no reason to add a reveal mechanic.
Hardly any players that spvp or tpvp play thief or mesmer so there is truelly no reason to add a skill for classes no one even bothers to play.
Nature’s Spirit is such a great widely used elite that no one would ever consider using reveal over it. And for some reason reveal works completely differently than every other elite and you cannot swap it out for your other elites when out of combat. Encase you happened to see a match with no thieves or mesmers, which we all know happens 99% of the time in spvp and tpvp.
Rangers are already the most powerful pvp class in the game which is why you encounter spvp and tpvp games filled with them stomping Thieves and mesmer’s in 1v1 whenever they are encountered.
Adding this Elite would mean that Dev’s suddenly hit the off switch and leave every broken trait and pet ability because this ability would place a finished sign on the class.
All great soundly logical arguments that prefectly encompass the spvp and tpvp scene found in modern GW2 pvp.
I don’t at all think rangers need skills that reveal stealth, particularly because only one other profession uses it, and it’ll just annoy a lot of people on both sides. As for unveiling enemies on the map – that sounds nice, but it’s more of a divination than actual tracking, plus the ranger elites are actually great in itself (well, two out of three is good!).
I’d be forced to disagree with you because of the 200,000 collective post/replies on thread’s complaing about stealth mechanics. That’s 20% of the entire playerbase.
And aren’t you forgeting about the mesmer the class you play which can also stealth. There are 8 professions in this game 2 of them can stealth that is again 20% of the professions which can use this mechanic. Name me two other professions that have have such a huge impact on pvp teamplay, you have guardian and um guardian and um guardian lol see.
So if you use logic I’d say that 20% is a huge number that dictates a great need. Only one class in wow could stealth and they saw fit to give Hunter’s reveal and they had 10 classes. They gave a vastly powerful mechanic like stealth a counter just so rogue’s would be forced to play as smart as they force there victims to play.
And I’m forced to disagree with you darling, because mesmers don’t spam stealth at all. They have it as an extra feature that’s generally helpful, but only used to evade attacks for a bit. Thieves, however, manage to chain stealth to more stealth, and often do so because Shadow Refuge is a broken utility skill that does not do what it is supposed to do.
Now, even so, 25%* (= math) of all professions use stealth, so your answer is to give 12% of the players a counter while everyone else gets nothing? It’s the wrong way to deal with a problem. Fix stealth, don’t give a kitten world of warcraft skill with no good additional uses just to counter a single game feature.
So now were playing pretend? were going to pretend that Mesmer’s don’t use prestige on 30 second cd, Decoy on 30 cd with illusions celerity 5 trait skill and they dont use those abilities the moment they repop. I don’t know about you but 2 steath’s in a 30 sec timeframe sure seems like alot to me. That is effectively the ability to stealth every 15 seconds only 9 seconds less than a thief can. Not to mention veil and mass invisbility on 90 second CD that last 4 or 5 seconds a peice 5-6 with prismatic understanding trait.
Yes I have a mesmer too only I won’t pretend that when i play mine I don’t use one of the most powerful tools at there disposal. You know that they won’t “FIX stealth” whatever that means which is why you are not proposing any solution to the problem. Just opposing a mechanic that would negatively impact your main class which is in most players opinion vastily OP’d, having the cofusion of clones PLUS invis mechanics to boot.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
Is it the WoW skill where you can place a mark on one player and they are unable to stealth for a little while? I liked that idea.
They had two Mark which was a debuff that kept a player from going stealth once it was on them and flare a large radius AoE ground drop that revealed anyone stealthed inside of it.
They could also track stealthers in a very small radius no ability that powerful has been proposed yet players act as if the mere suggestion of that type of mechanic is devestating to class balance.
NO! allowing a player to re-stealth every 6 seconds in combat and giving them the highest burst dmg in the game is devestating to class balance. This is just a readjustment of that pure insanity.
I don’t at all think rangers need skills that reveal stealth, particularly because only one other profession uses it, and it’ll just annoy a lot of people on both sides. As for unveiling enemies on the map – that sounds nice, but it’s more of a divination than actual tracking, plus the ranger elites are actually great in itself (well, two out of three is good!).
I’d be forced to disagree with you because of the 200,000 collective post/replies on thread’s complaing about stealth mechanics. That’s 20% of the entire playerbase.
And aren’t you forgeting about the mesmer the class you play which can also stealth. There are 8 professions in this game 2 of them can stealth that is again 20% of the professions which can use this mechanic. Name me two other professions that have have such a huge impact on pvp teamplay, you have guardian and um guardian and um guardian lol see.
So if you use logic I’d say that 20% is a huge number that dictates a great need. Only one class in wow could stealth and they saw fit to give Hunter’s reveal and they had 10 classes. They gave a vastly powerful mechanic like stealth a counter just so rogue’s would be forced to play as smart as they force there victims to play.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
Even if we had this i wouldn’t use it,Prefer something that you know,works against the other 7 professions aswell?
It would work vs Mesmer and thief that’s 25% of the avialable professions. You can spec accordingly vs just about every other class please explain to me how that uber Nature’s Spirit is helping you vs any other class I’d much rather see Reveal replaced with this terribad elite.
But if you don’t want it don’t use it, still doesn’t make sense for Ranger not to have reveal or track at thier disposal for those that would use it just because you wouldn’t.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
What a worthless ability… How do you have such an issue with thieves? They can barely burst through 3k armor by themselves (by barley I mean they can’t) and their stealth is a minor inconvenience at best, now when a ranger stealths ohohohoh do you throw people off!! That’s when the real OPness comes in!
Really because i have a thief and i’ve never lost to ranger in 1v1 never will never can. doesn’t matter if I’m condition spec’d, burst dual dagger spec’d or dual pistol spec’d.
LOL I’ll burst through 3k toughness like you didn’t even have toughness sit in Shadow Refuge collecting 10 stacks of might with hidden assassin blow my Assassin signet collecting 5 more stacks of might and backstab you for 12k with 6 k mug steal to boot. i’ll prove it on any hotjoin I fear no ranger on my thief only a below rank 10 thief with lil to zero knowledge of the class couldn’t beat a ranger 1v1. You’d have to be using illegal radar mod to beat me and sadly some rangers in guilds i wont mention are but for those not hacking you got no chance NONE!
And wether or not Ranger’s need in 1v1 isn’t the point the point is stealth needs a counter, Rangers are missing the core mechanic that always been a part of there class. what your saying makes as much sense as thieves without stealth.
Just give me ONE example of a game with stealth that didn’t include a Ranger/Scout/Hunter with reveal mechanics besides this one. But we both know you can’t.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
Give it a really long cooldown…or some kind of cool visual effect. Think of a strobe light where instead of just straight up taking everyone out of stealth they blink in and out of stealth for 3 sec
Please correct me if I misunderstand you, but you want to waste an elite slot, for a “reveal” type of skill that
a) has a really long cooldown, by that I guess you mean 4 minutes+ ?
and
b) lasts for a puny 3 seconds?
IF this is what you meant, I’m sorry but who in their right mind would ever take such an unbelievable underpowered elite – ever?
*
Pets being able to stick to stealthed targets would be a nice thing though. Not attacking through stealth, just following the stealthed opponent.
So a reveal to the most op’d mechanic in the game is worthless, when it’s something that every smart player would just about kill for, but Natures Spirit isn’t? LOL and why does reveal suddenly have a 4 minute cooldown when no other elite has a CD that long.
<Scratches head>
Are you serious lol you gotta be trolling
So let me get this straight Thieves should get there stealth that makes them unique and has been the traditional role of there class. Which has also made them the most represented and played class in both tpvp and spvp
Your animal companion called. I couldn’t really understand what it was saying, but I think it was along the lines of “Stop ignoring me.”
Although clever the idea of having pet to over-ride tracking or reveal scout type abilities go agianst the very nature of the Ranger class.
The Ranger class was first conceived by JRR tolkien in the character Strider/Aragorn, WoW later expanded this by giving them a creature companion. Notice that they did not remove reveal or track from the class.
It’s like Thieves being able to steal and be stealthy
A warrior doing high melee dmg and wearing heavy armor
A Necro having undead pet and being able to steal life
Having one does not negate the other and having a Ranger without the core class mechanics that gave rise to the very conception of the class is like having a thief without stealth, it’s illogical and pointless. You might as well call them a Marksmen without track or reveal mechanic and in this game where anyone can equip pistol/rifle or bow is essentially a marksmen giving nothing unique to the Ranger class whatsoever.
It’s very sad to see players trying to use bad logic or clever rhetoric to explain away something that literally makes no sense and has never been in any previous MMO. Even suggesting Ranger/Hunters/scout lose stealth or reveal in any other game would be madness and deemed as such by the general playerbase.
You couldn’t find a single ranger player that wouldn’t happily remove there pet to have the dmg of a thief in either burst, or condition dmg spec. Try removing stealth from thieves and see how well the class functions because it makes about as much sense as a tracker/reveal class not having a counter to this tactic.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
I just had an idea in another thread:
Why not let combo fields reveal stealth? Stealthed players would see them, so they can avoid them. It would also give the ability to reveal stealth to all classes.
Because having to set up a combo field, hope a stealther stands in it and then use an ability to have reveal would allow a stealther to escape too easily negating the purpose of having any form of stealth reveal in the first place.
Stealth is a core class mechanic to thief it can’t be given to ever class.
Just as Track/Reveal is a core class mechanic to rangers and shouldn’t be given to every class. It be like giving necro pets to every class doesn’t fit the theme or role the class was based off of.
I propose to have stealth be revealed inside enemy combo fields. This would require minimal change to the current game and instantly give all classes the ability to reveal stealthed enemies. Combo fields also last for a limited time and are visible to stealthed players, so they can avoid them. Of course, this will require some testing, but I think it would be worth the try for the devs to play around with it.
Stealth does need a counter. A lack of a counter is simply making it too powerful/useful.
Also, making someone completely lose their target is annoying. The game should automatically re-target the enemy after he comes back out of stealth. That is, only if the player hasn’t selected another target in the meantime.
I oppose the idea of giving a counter to stealth to anything less than all classes in the game (yes, also thieves and mesmers should be able to reveal stealth in some way). I also don’t agree with the statement that rangers have always been stealth-revealers in mmo’s in general.
- a ranger
I don’t believe that you could find a single MMO with stealthers in it that didn’t have a ranger/scout/hunter class with some form of track or reveal. you can’t say GW1 because gw1 had no stealth.
ITT, I learned that OrangeMarmalade is just better at this profession than everyone else playing the game. Therefore, it’s balanced and needs no changes. In fact, every other player that has chosen Ranger should be forced to play a different Profession so that Anet can delete the profession except for OrangeMarmalade. He’ll be the Lone Ranger.
I agree with Orange too. I’m not going to say the Ranger is perfect, but besides the buggy AI and few needed tweaks, the Ranger is perfectly viable in every aspect of the game. The only part of the game that Ranger is lackluster is the extreme top tier of sPvP as seen in many of the streams. I am by no means top tier sPvP material, but I can promise you that the 99.9% of people complaining about Rangers are not either.
Additionally, I am part of one of the most influential WvW guilds on Jade Quarry and WvW the majority of my time played. Out of the top 6-8 commanders on the server, 3 of them are Rangers and love them to death (I know because I asked).
At the end of the day, many of the Ranger QQ is caused by the extremely vocal forum minority who are looking to blame something else instead of trying to improve upon their current situation. IMO the ranger does need the most changes/tweaks out of every other class, but the tweaks do not need to be as drastic as the forum indicates.
Everyone has a right to an opinion, and I respect the average negative poster, but there are some people on this forum that need to come back down to reality and get control of themselves.
I’ve played a Ranger from day one I’m well aware of all there builds, strengths and weakness. That being said I can destroy a Ranger on any other class in the game in seconds.
You are poor poor excuse for a condition Thief in every way, you have lower dmg, less group support as my Thief will rezz and stomp with blindness and stealth over and over again. You will die faster as my stealth is better than a ranger having stone spirit, bark skin, earth rune and 3k tougness.
I will kill a ranger with with Steal/mug, BS, heartseeker x2 regardless of your lvl of skill, you have no block, ret, or virtually no blindness abilities. Your one handed sword will only protect you and absorb half of a thieves intial burst and I’ll re-stealth rinse and repeat and you will die the second time.
I’ll also pick apart any ranger on my Rifle warrior spec, and Mesmer and will happily prove it on anyone in spvp in the guild you mentioned even with their flagrant abuse of illegal macro mods.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
Thread moved to ranger discussion.
This does not belong on the Ranger board at all it’s about a ranger lack of a role in spvp and it’s effect on stealth classes and teamplay, this is not just a class discussion it’s a role and teamwork discussion. Every other class has there right to have spvp role discussion on spvp why are you moving this to class discussion?
I’ll just repost it on spvp you have no right to move this you violate CoC by doing so because you are now off topic. You need to follow your own rules mod lead by example. Moving it is not pertinant or conducive to the topic it’s flagrant censorship.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
On the ranger forum they have proposed the exact same thing and all Rangers agree it would give them a necessary role they currently lack in pvp. They also have great suggestions as to how it would work and it is hardly op’d.
Reveal should be a ground targeted large circle drop that takes the thief or Mesmer out of stealth and drops the reveal debuff on them just as if they attacked from stealth.
AND
Give pets a detect hidden ability non clickable that they randomly perform that does the exact same thing just like the pets current aoes. Prolly give this to wolves or cats.
I agree that Rangers do not have a distinct role that they excel in at the moment.
Yet, previous roles of similar professions in other games does not predicate what the GW2 Rangers should be.
I am ignoring that the author is likely to be posting due to being trashed by a thief recently, and attempt to add a bit more to this thread:
I recall the GW1 Ranger to be one of my favorites. It had a clear role, though not always an essential one. Fun to play. Still, I have yet to see any Ranger-type profession with its combat mechanic designed well in incorporating the pet; not simply slapping pet damange into skills. Perhaps a good question to ask when designing a ranger-type profession is to ask: Can this skill have its pet abilities merged such that there is little to no change to combat dynamics? If Yes, then the skill is perhaps not well designed.
WRONG To say Rangers having track and reveal is because of a QQ is just crazy when that is the concept behind the class, always has been and it’s crazy not to give them those mechanics in a game with stealthers.
Guild Wars 1 did not have stealth but now that GW2 does it seems very illogical to me for them to not have reveal or track when every other game with stealthers has given them that. They added in a new class with an entirely different dynamic that drastically changed pvp, this class was based off of the traditional concept of stealthers. Then they didn’t give the traditional concept of tracking/reveal to rangers and it’s just silly. It’s like a warrior without heavy armor, a mage without spells, a Necro/warlock without life stealing, i don’t see how you could possibly think for second that this doesn’t make perfect sense lol and how this could be a whine thread when it’s just so purely logical and is as crazy as making a thief class without stealth.
But considering that you play a Mesmer I can see why you would try to discredit instituting a logical core class mechanic like reveal or track from the ranger class. Try going to any other MMo and suggesting these abilities be removed from Hunter/Scout/Ranger and see how the players call it utterly insane.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
P/P is probably the worst thief weaponset out there and can only do so much before you run out of initiative, sure its nice and bursty when you have initiative, but compare pistol autoattack to ranger autoattack and i think the ranger would be the winner in this.
Pistols may be worse than alot of thief sets but if you spec for pistols you’d be surprised how much dmg you can pump out with an unload. I’ve ripped long and short bow rangers to shreds without even needing to stealth dishing out 5-7k per unload. And you can unload 3 times before your out of inniative killing the longbow’s rapid fire due to cd, with assassin signet and haste you’d make a ranger disappear before he knows what hit him.
on the melee i can agree, but thief arrows hit for like half the damage a ranger longbow can do at max range. condition damage is only high when they play a condition spec, otherwise just base condition damage.
Aren’t you forgeting about pistols because my dual pistol thief definitely outdamages any bow spec’d burst ranger.
But you have a pet!
And less ranged, melee and condition dmg with a pet than a thief without one. Taking track or reveal from a Ranger is like taking stealth from a thief might as well not have the class in the game.
A ranger without track or reveal is like a thief without stealth leaves no point to having the class in the game.
So let me get this straight Thieves should get there stealth that makes them unique and has been the traditional role of there class. Which has also made them the most represented and played class in both tpvp and spvp.
But Rangers shouldn’t have track or reveal which has been there traditional role in MMO’s going back 15 years, without it making them the least played and represented class in tpvp and spvp. Sure makes alot of sense lol and your serious too!
I never said rangers shouldn’t get reveal. I said it shouldn’t be their class role, because countering a mechanic on one class (who even has builds without said mechanic I might add), is not enough to justify using a class.
Well atleast you admit to that tracking or reveal is a core mechanic to the ranger class without it there just a guy with a bow and here there’s a ton of classes that are guy’s with a bow.
I think it should be left up to players wether or not they would use the ultility slot. And alot ranger imbalances come from broken traits and nowhere did I say those traits shouldn’t be fixed. I don’t understand why it has to be all or nothing, just because they have track or reveal doesn’t mean there traits shouldn’t also be reworked but even if they were reworked there is no support role for a ranger that couldn’t be filled better by another class unless you rebuild them from the ground up and let’s face it that’s not going to happen. Being dps+ anti=stealth or track would definitely give them a place in tpvp and spvp they currently lack. I think you should let rangers decide wether or not they’d you use track or reveal lol not thieves.
First off, I play both ranger, and thief for the record. Thief being my most played, ranger my second. Second, why should thieves be left out of a discussion that directly concerns them?
The reason why I said it would be all or nothing is because of your opening post.
“Tracker
Stealth Revealer
In Guild Wars 2 both of those roles have been taken away leaving them no purpose in pvp whatsoever.
Worst of all this has directly impacted the game in pvp as now stealth has no hard counter. While every player is forced to remain on there toes and react almost instantly to stealth attacks there is absolutely nothing forcing stealther’s to keep on theirs.”Your opening post directly says that this would be the ranger’s role, and the reason to play the class. The all or nothing was from you.
So let me get this straight Thieves should get there stealth that makes them unique and has been the traditional role of there class. Which has also made them the most represented and played class in both tpvp and spvp.
But Rangers shouldn’t have track or reveal which has been there traditional role in MMO’s going back 15 years, without it making them the least played and represented class in tpvp and spvp. Sure makes alot of sense lol and your serious too!
Bump
exactly what I was posting for on the spvp forum here
Only to watch a thousand thieves start the QQ at the very thought, stating insane things like having track or reveal would = no more thieves when that has never been the case in every MMo to date.
Because one class could mark reveal a thief with ground drop or track a thief in small radius would make them worthless nope there has shown no evidence of this in any MMO ever made to date. It has shown that without this thieves population is absolutely out of control and bustling to the brim.
Read my post again.
Having the ranger being dedicated to screwing over thieves would mean thieves would switch to another class when they see a ranger so they don’t need to deal with a hard counter.
With all thieves switching away when they see a ranger, the ranger himself loses his role.
In otherwords,
some thieves, some rangers = thieves useless, and thus switch class
no thieves, some rangers = rangers useless, and thus switch class creating
no thieves, no rangers = what no one wantsthe other possible situation is
some thieves, no rangers where thieves will thrive.
Again, note that rangers on the battlefield would have to be absolutely necessary to defeat thieves, because no one is going to use one of five slots to counter one of eight classes otherwise. It would also have to be such a dramatic dominating of the thief to make up for the ranger’s lack of ability against every other class.
Your suggestion gives rangers a role that is useless against anyone who knows the metagame, and can act accordingly. It will hurt rangers more than thieves.
And again you can’t give any evidence of a single MMO that Ranger/Scout/Hunters negated the playerbase of stealth classes this is baseless opinion that you cant pull a single game to illustrate that being the case.
Every Overpowered class in history has used the argument that changing the smallest thing or adding something else to another class would absolutely destroy there class and make them unplayable yet after it happened they still remained highly represented.
I think it should be left up to players wether or not they would use the ultility slot. And alot ranger imbalances come from broken traits and nowhere did I say those traits shouldn’t be fixed. I don’t understand why it has to be all or nothing, just because they have track or reveal doesn’t mean there traits shouldn’t also be reworked but even if they were reworked there is no support role for a ranger that couldn’t be filled better by another class unless you rebuild them from the ground up and let’s face it that’s not going to happen. Being dps+ anti=stealth or track would definitely give them a place in tpvp and spvp they currently lack. I think you should let rangers decide wether or not they’d you use track or reveal lol not thieves.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
…i think the one guy who said ranger is OP is just making a joke.
what they are discussing is, why shouldn’t a tracker character have the ability to track people?
do you remember the ink trap from the haloween maze pvp thing while part of the nightmare court? it put physical cues into the location of the target putting their footprints on the ground for a little while.
a similar tracking system could be put on all ranger traps. with footsteps being different for different traps (fire -> flaming footprints, Ice-> ice marks, Poison -> ink, Spike -> Bleeds). or a counter by forcing a reveal on 1 utility skill.
if you remember the one post that was like 20 pages long in the ranger forum? that was moved to the ranger forum from general discussion. so i doubt devs aren’t reading these posts. infact this is the primary outvoice for the community.
you have great idea but you should post it there because the devs will not read it here for sure.
I understand why all of you thieves that are posting would oppose this but I’m sorry a ranger scout class without reveal or track is like having a thief without stealth you can’t name me any MMO that doesn’t have ranger/scout/hunter as a counter to stealth mechanics.
And I know you’ll deny stealth being overpowered but it is, and it needs a counter and rangers need a role in pvp there’s no way to bring them in line without having another class that can do that role better.
You’d freak out if they removed stealth from your class but currently rangers are the least tpvp and spvp class played in the game. This would give them a role in tpvp to stop roamer thieves and protect group mates from stealthers. You say learn to dodge when players complain about dieing in 3 seconds well learn to dodge when your marked.
There is no point to have a Ranger class without track or reveal might as well call them a marksmen then because it’s as silly as having a thief without stealth. You’d have to be out of your mind crazy liar to say that this class has a purpose without those two abilities. It’s silly you know it is but for some reason the people that post on these forums seem to live in some crazy world that breaks all the rules of previous MMO’s why not make a stealthing warrior because it makes about that much sense. And Currently a warrior with Rifle is better than any ranger build in the game.
As a thief, I’m more concerned that giving this kind of ability to the ranger will shoehorn him into being useless permanently.
It creates a role that requires the thief’s existence to be useful, and the thief to be otherwise destroying other classes to be meaningful enough to justify a slot in the team to protect against thieves (If thieves aren’t wrecking up other classes, then you’re not going to waste a slot on a class who can only counter them)
Also, imagine what would happen if it went through, and now having a ranger in the battle made thieves useless. You see the enemy has a ranger on their team in tPvP? All thieves suddenly switch to another class. Now the enemy rangers see there are no thieves, and realize they’d be better off as something else, and switch to. End result is no thieves, and no rangers because thieves won’t by fielded against rangers, and rangers won’t be fielded without thieves.
This is why having a single class dedicated to countering another single class is bad, and should never happen.
As a thief I think your opinion is biased and invalid, sooo because hunters could mark in WoW no one played Rogues cmon that’s just silly. So because Scout could reveal in Shadowbane no one played assassins, I could go on all day with this. Come on this is the most flimsy arguement I’ve ever heard to keep a class from doing what it was designed to do traditionally.
I think that having reveal or track mechanic would indeed lower thieves representation in pvp which needs to be done because currently it’s at like 70% which shows a huge problem right there. Would it stop skilled thieves no way, but the mindless horde of thieves that rely on the broken mechanics of stealth that currently have no counter absolutely.
Because one class could mark reveal a thief with ground drop or track a thief in small radius would make them worthless nope there has shown no evidence of this in any MMO ever made to date. It has shown that without this thieves population is absolutely out of control and bustling to the brim.
There are alot of threads posted on the spvp forums that pertain to class balance or lack there of on the spvp forums. But these threads get torn to peices by the horde of thief players that work very hard to keep every class but them underpowered.
Because Ranger players seem to stick to the Ranger forum which doesn’t seem to be read by the pvp team your voice is not heard.
Thieves are actually saying Rangers are OP on this thread
(edited by Moderator)
I understand why all of you thieves that are posting would oppose this but I’m sorry a ranger scout class without reveal or track is like having a thief without stealth you can’t name me any MMO that doesn’t have ranger/scout/hunter as a counter to stealth mechanics.
And I know you’ll deny stealth being overpowered but it is, and it needs a counter and rangers need a role in pvp there’s no way to bring them in line without having another class that can do that role better.
You’d freak out if they removed stealth from your class but currently rangers are the least tpvp and spvp class played in the game. This would give them a role in tpvp to stop roamer thieves and protect group mates from stealthers. You say learn to dodge when players complain about dieing in 3 seconds well learn to dodge when your marked.
There is no point to have a Ranger class without track or reveal might as well call them a marksmen then because it’s as silly as having a thief without stealth. You’d have to be out of your mind crazy liar to say that this class has a purpose without those two abilities. It’s silly you know it is but for some reason the people that post on these forums seem to live in some crazy world that breaks all the rules of previous MMO’s why not make a stealthing warrior because it makes about that much sense. And Currently a warrior with Rifle is better than any ranger build in the game.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
Lots of thiefs play without stealth, most of the condition ones use shaman’s amulets and signet of malice, including me.
Also, the Ranger seems more like a Wilderness Traveler/Druid then the stereotypical WoW Hunter to me.
Dont get me wrong though, i woundt mind if it they gave Rangers things like flares to reveal stealthers or improved stealth detection, it just doesnt seem to fit with the ranger.
Lot’s of thieves play without stealth???
Who said anything about WoW there is NO MMO that has stealth that didn’t give Ranger/Scout/Hunter class the ability to reveal and tell me what role ranger has in current pvp because they are the least represented class in tpvp or spvp atm.
Mesmer, dodge once then drop your 2x clones which also stealths you.
Shatter when he pops and off you go..
They are easy to kill
Mirror Image does not stealth you, it just creates two clones, Decoy creates one clone and stealths you.
And a thief can use CnD every 6 seconds to restealth
Blinding powder to grant them blindness miss the shatter and re-stealth
Shadow Refuge to sit in stealth for 10 seconds
Hide in Shadows to remove all conditions grant regen and stealth
All of these abilities will make the clones stop in there tracks and just stand there.
Name one other MMO that a stealth class can teleport on to you while stealthing themselves and deal a player 50-75% of there total lifepool and re-stealth every 6 seconds. I’ll wait…
This effects EVERYONE so not quite sure why you mention only Ranger for.
Because there the only class without a role in pvp what so ever and since the conception of MMO’s this has been there purpose. This is the only game that made a class called a Ranger and gave them no track or stealth reveal.
It’s like having a thief with no stealth.
In just about every MMO I’ve played in the last 15 years Ranger/Hunter/Scout had two major roles that made them unique in pvp.
Tracker
Stealth Revealer
In Guild Wars 2 both of those roles have been taken away leaving them no purpose in pvp whatsoever.
Worst of all this has directly impacted the game in pvp as now stealth has no hard counter. While every player is forced to remain on there toes and react almost instantly to stealth attacks there is absolutely nothing forcing stealther’s to keep on theirs.
They have no fear in pvp as they can reset a fight at any moment, and groups are forced to play as psychic’s having no way to know where or when there going to strike. A Rangers role was to check track to know who’s around and prevent a stealth class from decimating his group.
Some games gave group drops, other’s allowed marking targets, and preventing them from re-stealthing, others allowed you to reveal and track stealthers. Here there is no form of reveal or track and stealth mechanics are completely out of control.
This is one of the worst ideas i have ever heard around here. And the argument that those skills are already there is just wrong!
Maybe to you, this seems like a small thing, but believe me, this would make a huge difference and I’m sure that something similar will never be implemented.I’m coming from other f2p MMO where you can find this implementation with potions, and that is just killing the game for everyone else. Basically it turned that game into pay to win show, and that’s why I am not playing it anymore.
Killing what have you been to the heart of Mist’s lately? Kill is a term used to describe something dying the zones already dead.
Instead of all the QQ explain, someone atleast explain how anything I suggested would have such a great influence in a match. Give one example because no one has given a single sensical thing besides QQ. Saying it will out balance WHAT exactly I can list a ton of runes/traits that already give all these abilities so no one here is making any logical sense saying that by giving a long cooldown ability for an extremely short duration would outbalance what you can already do with runes in the game NOW!
the only thing displayed in this thread by players is ignorance of how classes work and lack of knowledge of existing runes on weapons and armor sets. Because you can put on rune of savnir and get 3 secs of ice block on shorter cooldown you can don inflitrator’s rune and go invis, there is runes that you can activate swiftness with heal or even strip all conditions and gain all buffs. So what what would being able to do it once more in a really long long time do lol it would do nothing. this is the same thing I’ve seen in wow when players proposed 1v1 arena’s for gear, the players who already had high arena didn’t want anyone else to get anything they already had. It’s fear of change plain and simple, you have a better idea please propose one. but don’t say hey things are fine the way they are because there NOT!
what is this new nonsense about having pvp profitable!?!?!?!?
this is buy to play, at least it was advertised like that although it isn’t from introducing gems/ cash shop! and how exactly do you think more ppl will play pvp if they can’t even open their rewards.
is OP anet employee?
lol do you understand that there is no one playing pvp? That all of the focus is on PVE because people are using the cash shop for pve items. Do you get that this is a buisness and they are going to pool thier resources on the area of the game that is most profitable and if there is no way to profit off of PvP it will remain dead. Class balance will remain the joke that it is with very little viable builds per class. With some classes vastily op’d compaired to others, because why put any resources into something that is simply not profitable and no one is playing.
And alot of you guys reading this need to actually pay attention to what I suggested weak potions that wouldn’t change anything besides letting a player escape a zerg every once in awhile. Currently there is no way to get away from a zerg for any class besides Mesmer’s and Thieves. So it’s great if you play one of those two classes but it isn’t exactly fun for everyone else to be forced to stick to your group or die within seconds. I’d happily pay a tiny amount of cash to let my ranger or warrior escape the mob from time to time per match and even with the potions I’d still prolly fail on use 50% of the time but I’d take it.
No one is offering weapons of mass destruction here that would change the course of spvp and they wouldn’t even be allowed in tpvp so I don’t see what the big deal would be. Alot of players just hate anything that would be considered change even tho every MMO already has stuff like this in it besides GW2.
More boxes that need a key = more items to delete for me after every reward, since pvp rewards are soulbound and cannot be sold, and that place is already taken by arcane powder…
Some of your suggested potions, like 3 second ice block, would create and even more survivable bunkers – 3 s might not look that much, but that is a time when the cds are ticking away and allies are running towards your point. There is a reason why you can only 1 of these kind of rune effects ingame.
So overall I do not like your idea, because at best it is useless for me and at worst it may be an addition to balance issues.
P.S. Don’t use wow as an example – it has a bad pvp, because of huge imbalance, healers, gear impact, etc.
I can only debate with facts based in reality did Wow have some bad class balances yes but to say it’s worse than balance here is just beyond crazy to me. After 8 years WoW’s BG’s are still filled and arena wait time is like 5-15 mins.
After 3 months the Mists are empty Tournaments take hours to enter and there is less than 200-300 people doing spvp at primetime. Even a WoW stunlock rogue would take 15-20 seconds to kill you here they do it in under 4. And here a bunker guardian can last as long as resto druid and has 3 times the dmg to boot. You really don’t think that’s do to bad class balance when almost every player that has left has stated they hated the class balance? Really?
Potions wouldn’t defeat the class balance here at all because you’d have to be alil off to think that there is balance here.
[quote=864400;Coopers.4376You are so clueless that my heads hurts just trying to comprehend your thought process.
The whole game is built on a foundation of equality, this is why so many people flocked to it. Everyone has equal gear and therefore equal stats, what your suggesting would flip balance upside down and make stronger classes even stronger. Oh those D/D thieves now have 9 seconds of stealth due to your potion and when they cluster bomb you, your chilled so they can hit you a few more times…
Im just so astonished that anyone could come up with such a stupid idea and somehow try to spin it as a way to save the game.
[/quote]
This one baffles me a thief can already stealth every 6 seconds with CnD, they can sit in stealth for 10 seconds with shadow refuge. and the potion wouldn’t over-ride reveal mechanics. No thief would want a 3 second stealth on 2 min cooldown lol all there other stealth abilities would repop long before this. Thieves never die because they cant re-stealth they die because they can’t get clear of aoe blast zones or take sudden burst while reveal debuff is up.
And they couldn’t chill on attack they would chill when they are hit, they can already chill on weapon hit’s with a weapon rune that’s already in game and thieves don’t need to chill you they can teleport right on top of you lol.
Hahahaha I love the drama going on like I suggested a one shot kill button. Everything I suggested(Except the sight and zephyr) are already available on armor rune sets with a much quicker cooldown.
All these abilities are already in the game, and all these potions are weaker than potions available in wow that you can use in Battlegrounds. If you actually sat there and thought about it none of these abilities would possibly impact balance in the slightest lol a 2-3 min cooldown would equal to maybe 1 escape of a zerg per match if that.
You cant give spvp armor skins because that defeats the entire purpose of grinding glory and everything else you can already buy, potions are really the only thing you can implement and come on 3-5 seconds of any of these are not match breaking in any way. Try to use alil logic and not mob zerg the idea before your mind actually realizes what I’m suggesting.
If you don’t offer something that gives you alil something extra in spvp no one will pay RL cash for it. And if it impacted pvp so greatly then why can all these abilities be found on armor sets available in the game right now.
I don’t think anyone could even give an example of where these abilities could impact the outcome of a match in the slightest. And lets not pretend everything is well balanced because then please explain rangers to me lol. It wouldn’t be an omg this guys got potions thing because you could use it once per match lol maybe twice. So maybe that one guy would win 1v1 or escape a zerg he normally wouldn’t have once per match lol, it’s not huge power difference there. Just enough to make some players pay some RL cash for without impacting the flow of dynamics already set in place.
I’m guessing most people didn’t even read the effects I listed just saw potions and said NO NO people can not have that 3 second consumble they can already equip for free on an armor set lol.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
I’m for anything that will bring profitability thus dev attention to PVP but I’m against anything that opens the doors to an uneven playing field. Items as you suggest… This wouldn’t do anything but exacerbate min/maxing and disparity between balanced and unbalanced builds and classes.
So a 2 min cooldown on 3-5 second ability would destroy class balance? lemme introduce you to servers filled with dual BS thieves killing people in under 4 seconds screaming “Learn to dodge”.
It has to give some effect or no one is going to pay money for it consumbles with a long cooldown are the only way to do that. And these effects are tiny and small and really don’t influence a match in any game breaking way. Every other MMO had potions with much greater effects on the pvp balance these are really nothing if you added anything less no one would pay for it.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
No, just no.
There are plenty of ways to make money without hurting the integrity of the game.
lol it’s already hurt, atleast with this player’s that don’t play Guardian, Mesmer, Thief can have something to make up for there lack of well everything. and giving these abilities to the already op’d classes doesn’t really change much.
(edited by Fellknight.4820)
Simply add strongboxes to each Tournament, and Gold Glory Chest that requires a key from the Black Lion Trading company.
Inside these Strongboxes would different items, such as Dyes and Glory Boosters as well as consumables for pvp. Such as Potions with a one charge consumable with different effects and shared 2 min cooldown. These could all be uncommon items.
Potion of Stealth: Grants 3 seconds of stealth
Potion of Svanir: Grants 3 second of ice block
Potion of Fire: The next five hits burn attackers
Potion of Frost: The next five attacks chill attackers
Potion of Zephyr: A 5 second 50% run speed increase
Potion of Retribution: 5 seconds of retaliation
Potion of Sight: 3 seconds of see stealth
While rare items could be Draughts which are the same as potions with 5 charges and for Ultra Rare items you could include wvw pvp items that could not be used in spvp.
I think there is alot of room for profit in pvp if alittle creativity is used instead of just tossing it out the window.
Stomping from stealth is the only one I don’t like, don’t really care for the others (stability, invulnerable, blind). With the others I know if I’m gonna get stomped and whether to use my escape / interrupt / just die. With the stealth mechanic I just pop my escape at the moment I think a stealth downed is coming, or try to get a lucky interrupt on it. The problem is you can only attack a target or directly forward, so you can’t even attack backward where the thief is most likely hiding.
It seems your unaware of what blindness does, blindess is much more effective for stomping then stealth because you can use all of your interupt abilities and they have zero effect on the person stomping you. A guardian can still interupt a stealthed stomper but not one who used blindness. A smart thief doesn’t waste stealth on stomping only on rezzing. If your one of the few classes with a teleport, stealth, or escape than you have more or the same op’d tactics as the people stomping you.
Mesmer and thief downed state are the biggest problem. Classes with the most escapes shouldn’t also get the most Op downed states. This reeks of class favoritism over balance.
A necro’s minions poof on downed state so why doesn’t a Mesmer’s more powerful phantasms? And why would the most powerful burst/escape(thief) class be given a 50% increase to downed dmg(trait) and the most evasive and effective two stomp avoidance abilities?
Stomping from stealth is actually less effective than stomping with blindness, rezzing with shadow refuge and Blindness powder is actually a much bigger problem than stomping.
Alot of the problem is not being addressed. It isn’t one ability but a few abilities used in conjuction with another.
Bola-4 second root
Signet of Might-5 stacks of might
Sigent of Rage-5 stacks of might,fury, swiftness
Rush-speed to your target
Frenzy-100% haste
Then Hundred blades dealing 70% of your lifepool in the blink of an eye, you cannot dodge it because your rooted, you cannot use a stun breaker because stun breaker’s don’t free you from immoblize. This garuntee’s a player kill every minute, you can use the bola,SoM,rush tactic every 25 secs dealing a good 50% of a players lifepool before they can dodge out of the root.
With Forceful Greatsword and Signet Mastery trait you gain might for every greatsword crit and knock the cooldown to 20 seconds allowing you to easily collect 12-15 stacks of might fast and deal over 70% lifepool without the frenzy in the 4 seconds of bola.
Again you cannot dodge this you cannot stun-breaker this and any warrior worth his salt will collect a kill every 20 seconds using this op’d tactic. Making them one of the best glory farming classes in spvp. There are also many player’s using illegal macro mods to pull these abilities off in miliseconds.