Guild Wars 2

RabbitUp.8294:

The constructive input is the 20%. Yes, there really were some well-thought-out posts. But, have you not seen countless of posts consisting of nothing more than “Dragonhunter sucks, name it Sentinel/Arbiter/whichever-word-I-think-sounds-cool instead?”.

Here’s a summary of that feedback: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/guardian

So what constructive discussion have you contributed, eh?

RabbitUp.8294:

And again you think “high concept” has something to do with quality, or brilliance.

No, I don’t. You’re just projecting your false sense of superiority.

I’m going to ask you to stop embarrassing yourself, because you are making a bad case for everyone who opposes the name. At least there are people among you that know how to make solid arguments and type well-constructed posts. Let them do the talking.

I have posted elsewhere in a larger post explaining my rationale for disliking the name. Who then do you think are making solid arguments and typing well-constructed posts? You’re certainly not among them. All you do is condescendingly naysay the naysayers.

You don’t need speed when you are a “dragonhunter.” That’s ridiculous.

RabbitUp.8294:

He didn’t do that, but he would actually be right. You don’t get what high concept means.

It’s an actual term. The high concept of Jurassic Park is “dinosaur theme park”.

Ha! “Dragonhunter” is as ‘high concept’ of a term as “Duck Hunter.” Could it possibly refer to someone who hunts dragons? I don’t know. Maybe.

It needs to be something “high concept” like ‘Dragonclock.’

Bloodchild.2680:

Look, the name isn’t changing. Get over it. We’re all going to be calling them DH anyway.

- Main Guardian

If the name never changes, then I will still be a dissatisfied customer providing my feedback.

RabbitUp.8294:

I will laugh, too, as I will finally have solid proof my pet venus flytrap outsmarts the average gamer.

Look. More snarky condescension. Now I’m really receptive to the name ‘dragonhunter.’

RabbitUp.8294:

ronpierce.2760:

Fenom.9457:

I hope nothing like Mordremslayer because after Mordremoth it’s weird, and promotes one dragon above the others. So whoever said Mordremslayer… NO! :P

It’s high concept. You’ll understand when you’re older.

How old do you need to grow to understand what “high concept” means?

That depends on how condescending you want to be towards the anti-DH name crowd.

RabbitUp.8294:

There’s a fine line between poking fun and providing feedback and straight up insulting someone’s work and intelligence.

Jon Peters should probably keep that in mind when insulting the intelligence of the playerbase by implying that they don’t get the nuance, high concept dragonhunter name.

Hooray! It’s the “high concept” Greatswordwielder!

I’ll just point out that in less than a week, this thread has begun garnering more than half the posts of the Engineers’ infamous “hobosack” thread that encouraged ArenaNet to change kit back pieces.

TyPin.9860:

1) Why does the engineer not build things?

Inventions. Kits. Turrets. Gadgets. Toolbelts.

Why does the Thief not actually steal things?

Because they are a noob who has not pressed their F1 key.

Mar.4839:

To understand Dragonhunter =/= anyone who hunts dragons requires more thought than the other two.

Whether you feel like all specialization names should require little or no thought, or enjoy them, is a different sentiment entirely. But there’s a lot basis for why ArenaNet decided on this name.

So much time do you spend thinking that “Duck Hunters” is a high concept game?

MFranco.9514:

“Paragons are the guardian angels of Elona, humanity’s champions against malefic threats”. Guardian evolved from paragon and in therms of specialization Dragonhunter feats perfectly.

Actually, you’re making a better case here that the specialization should be called the ‘paragon’ than you are for the ‘dragonhunter.’

Right now there are a lot of people pushing for their one preferred rename, which I find to be distracting from the issue of the inappropriateness of the ‘Dragonhunter’ name. It gets a little tiring hearing about the same ten or so names being lauded as the “perfect fit” for the elite specialization. That comes across as too divisive and dogmatic.

I suggest that people should provide a suggested list of possible acceptable alternative names as opposed to fanatically pushing one particular name.

Leo G.4501:

I think you could have condensed your post down to just 1 post if you cut out the more condescending portions of your critique. Really no need to proceed on and on with loaded or hypothetical questions and just stick with a more concise critique, especially for something more simple as a name. That said, I agreed with a lot of what you said but most of it comes off as too harsh and unnecessary questioning that likely won’t get answered and even if it would get answered, you’d just use it to heckle them further…so yeah.

Perhaps, but I felt that there would be plenty of concise critiques already, and I wanted to submit a more expansive post that tackled a lot of the issues discussed by both Jon Peters and guardian players.

For what it’s worth, I did a hypothetical rework that removed the condescending portions, and it still would not have fit one post.

It really does sound that what ArenaNet was going for is basically an “Inquisitor,” if one were to sum it up in a single word.

Rym.1469:

JonPeters.5630:

A couple notes on Dragonhunter. We went with this name because we felt it was evocative of the medieval witch hunters. Guardians consider themselves protectors of the innocent. Followers of their faith be it in honor, valor, etc. The origin of the dragonhunter is a more subtle nuanced version of this. Guardians fight for justice and the dragonhunter faction believes justice is the eradication of dragons and their minions. I understand this is a lot more high concept than Mesmer but at the end of the day we felt like we wanted to try and push a more mature theme here. I hope this helps explain our thinking. We had other generic names in mind but felt like it was important to have a mix of spec names that are generic fantasy, more Tyrian fantasy, and more high concept. This one falls more in the third category.

Thanks,

Jon

Then just call them Inquisitors.

An “Inquisition” line of specializations would also more thematically fit in with the existing categories guardians have: i.e., honor, valor, virtue, zeal, radiance, and then inquisition.

Post Continued…

There are a number of people, but admittedly not all, who absolutely fail in making a connection with this name. A chronomancer performs magic of time. A druid performs magic in connection with nature. But when it comes to the ‘dragonhunter’ specialization, many people can’t help but quote ‘the Bobs’ of Office Space: “So what would you say, you do here?” “Hunt dragons” is the almost reflexive response by the forum apologists of this name. Yet “Aren’t we all dragon hunters?” has become a mantra repeated among a number of threads here on the ANet forums, on Reddit, and even in conversations I have held with players in-game.

What’s more, one of the big points of the Season 2 Living Story was that the elder dragons are not so much evil, but Galactus-style forces of nature. There must always be a Lich Ki…errr…. Elder Dragons. They are forces of nature that everyone seeks to vanquish to either their death or slumber. There’s no hunting involved, nor stalking nor tracking. The dragons operate openly and boldly. We (roughly) know where the dragons are. ArenaNet even provides helpful telegraph animations for the dragons and their minions.

So here we are in the Maguuma Jungle for Heart of Thorns. Humans of Kryta are facing the Mursaat, their ancient foes. Clues of the White Mantle abound throughout the Maguuma Wastes and Western Kryta. Operative Sylvari agents of Mordremoth lie in wait amidst accusations of treason, distrust, and fear. And the guardians you want to evoke “medieval witch hunters” are “big game hunting” dragons and their publicly-operating minions? There’s a disconnect there.

What’s more, a lot of the design for your “big game hunters” is back-line support. Sure, it’s more offensive in that it deals with conditions, traps, and proactive uses of virtues, but the “big game hunters” are in the back providing support. I’ll tell you what they are not doing: dragon-hunting.

Furthermore, the elite specialization builds off of the guardian, which is indeed about warrior justice. But there is little about fighting dragons in the ability names or even the aesthetics of the specialization. When you posted an elite specialization teaser picture with angel wings, people thought “paragon.” “Dragonhunter” never even made the list. There’s nothing particularly “draconic” about the specialization. Draconic armor and bow does not a dragonhunter make.

The specialization ability names are indeed just as generic as most of the alternative proposed names for the specialization. What do “purification,” “tests of faith,” “fragments of faith,” “light’s judgment” have to do with hunting dragons? Yeah, I can see how that connects with your original intent of witch-hunting inquisitions, but not dragon-hunting, especially not the dragons of Guild Wars.

This is what I mean about how the total package for the ‘dragonhunter’ feels like an assortment of poorly-cobbled mixed messages. The specialization name is easier to change than everything else in order to better harmonize the contents of the package.

Finally, it is embarrassingly telling that GW2’s twitter feed retweeted well-known GW2 video blogger responses to the ‘dragonhunter’ reveal on Thursday who were less than enthused by the name. In particular, I have AuroraPeachy and WoodenPotatoes in mind. I could not help but wonder if ArenaNet had even watched these videos before retweeting them. If they had, they would have been smacked repeatedly by the voiced hesitation, uneasy reservation, and unenthusiatic responses by Guild Wars 2’s otherwise most enthusiastic of public blogging fans.

The mechanics are sound. They have been what guardians have wanted, though the symbol-like traps took people for a surprise. The elite specialization name and its attached flavor text are not. ArenaNet’s explanations for what they were going for with the name even reinforce your failure in that regard. You were going for “witch hunter of Tyria” but “dragonhunter” does not cut it.

Please rethink the name. I feel you would find that people would be far more receptive to the guardian’s elite specialization with an appropriate name change.

JonPeters.5630:

A couple notes on Dragonhunter. We went with this name because we felt it was evocative of the medieval witch hunters. Guardians consider themselves protectors of the innocent. Followers of their faith be it in honor, valor, etc. The origin of the dragonhunter is a more subtle nuanced version of this. Guardians fight for justice and the dragonhunter faction believes justice is the eradication of dragons and their minions. I understand this is a lot more high concept than Mesmer but at the end of the day we felt like we wanted to try and push a more mature theme here. I hope this helps explain our thinking. We had other generic names in mind but felt like it was important to have a mix of spec names that are generic fantasy, more Tyrian fantasy, and more high concept. This one falls more in the third category.

Thanks,

Jon

Thank you for your reply. We appreciate anyone from ArenaNet providing feedback on the fan responses. I get what you were going for. I really do. That became apparent in the Friday twitch stream on the guardian elite specialization. The problem is that the concept comes across as incredibly garbled mess. Intent does not equate to reception. You are sending mixed messages through the name and the flavor text in a manner that feels both disassociated from the core concepts of the guardian and what you claim the elite specialization is about.

You and Karl indicate that ArenaNet seek to evoke a “medieval witch hunter.” But ANet talks about the specialization being “big game hunters,” which is a distinct concept from a “medieval witch hunter.” I can see “witch hunters” being connected conceptually to guardians, as purifiers and inquisitors of the faith, but not “big game hunters.” “Witch hunters” were not known for taking down “big game,” but the secretive, deceptive, and dangerously subtle ‘game’ that lurked within the hearts of their fellow humans: apostates, pagans, and heretics. The danger for “witch hunters” was neither “big game” nor the world outside of their community, but within their community.

When many people think “witch hunter,” they think of the Victorian Van Helsing. More broadly, the “witch hunter” concept evokes colonial Puritan and medieval Germanic witch hunts and Spanish inquisitions. Even Van Helsing was less concerned with “big game” and more with the deception of the occult, vampires, and Satanic forces of evil. For both medieval witch hunters and later invented popular conceptions (e.g. Van Helsing), exorcisms, charms, and prayers were a significant component of how they performed their work. Even 20th century Hollywood action-hero witch hunters (e.g. Blade, Hanzel and Gretel, Van Helsing) are not “big game hunters,” even with their semi-automatic use of arrow ballistics.

When I think of a “big game hunter,” I think of posh British imperialists in 19th century Africa on a leisure holiday unwittingly driving creatures to extinction for kittens and giggles. Even the name of the GM Trait “Big Game Hunter” feels about as terrible of a name “Kill the Bad Guy Shot” or “Make the Dragon Dead.”

A lot of the famous dragon-hunters of folklore (e.g. Beowulf, Siegfried, Saint George, etc.) were conceptually nothing like “medieval witch hunters,” nor were they “big game hunters.” Saint George did not slay the dragon he had captured until the populace of Silene converted to Christianity. It’s even a miracle in itself that a Christian saint can be counted among the folkloric dragon hunters. They were simply warriors. The same is true for most dragonhunters in modern fantasy conceptions: basically warriors and rangers. A lot of the virtuous knights and warriors who slew dragons in myth, folklore, and poem did so with swords, spears, and shields. Not bows. That’s true even for Turin Turambar. Bard the Bowman of Laketown is seemingly the exception, and he’s no guardian.

I’m not sure how ‘dragon-hunting’ is anymore “high concept” or “mature” than a profession named after Ninendo’s “Duck Hunters.” The name has the transparency of a glass window pane completely shattered by thrown bricks. We get it. Dragonhunters “hunt dragons.” But that’s just about as far from “high concept” or “nuanced” as you can get.

Let’s put it this way: If the Guardian elite specialization had been ‘inquisitor/avenger/arbiter/paragon’ or just about anything else that has been thrown around , how many apologists of the name ‘dragonhunter’ would have thought that a ‘dragonhunter’ would have been a more apt name and clamoring for that change?

Alasteir.7031:

You mean the 5th edition DnD in which each of the Paladin’s specializations are referred to as Paths. Path of Devotion, Path of Vengeance for example?

Path. Specialization. It’s a rose by another name. Guess what? They still play differently.

The Paladin in that edition you cited is still thematically identical to a Guardian.An offensive Guardian would go into Zeal for example.

It’s also thematically identical to the Dragonhunter. Do you have a point? No? I thought not.

I can get behind the mechanics, but not the name.

Actually, what if traps were what replaced the virtues, and the jumping and such were turned into skills?

Alasteir.7031:

A Paladin is NOT specific, nor distinguishable from a Guardian. The Guardian itself already plays thematically to what a Paladin would play as. A defensive heavy armored class utilizing Holy/Light magic as their source of power.

Not necessarily, O ye of negligible imagination. D&D is a good example that demonstrates how wrong you are. The new sub-classes/specializations for paladins in 5th edition D&D, play out differently from each other. One is more defensive protector like a guardian, while another is incredibly offensively-oriented and focused on being an “avenging angel of wrath.”

Jaken.6801:

Not really.

Inquisitor usually goes into a more personal contact with its target.
Susequently it would only work against the Sylvari right now.
It doesn`t feel right to be a combat class.
Even in Warhammer the Inquisitor visits and mostly tells others what to do.
*He only participates in battles if he is forced to.

He is a judge. A judge who has a particular skillset (usually in fiction)*

He wouldn`t really fit the Hunter or Guardian direction, as they are way too combat oriented.

Judge Dredd would like to have a word with you.

Alasteir.7031:

It also fits the Guardian, and the thousands of different ways to say Guardian. Nothing about those names screams specialization. How do you specialize in something you’re already good at? It’s like saying a branch of medicine should be called Healing. Or a Mechanic who fixes cars, calling themselves a Car fixer; they already do that. So where does the specialization part come in?

What were you saying about subjectivities of opinion being presented as fact?

FYI, the Guardian already hunts the dragons.

Jaken.6801:

So yeah, their explanation on the stream says: “He wants to hunt everything dragon”
This includes their minions and everything surounding them.

I know what they were going for. I get it, but seriously?

1. Guardians aren`t the only ones with this objective.

2. I bet other classes can easily become dragonhunter themselves.

3. Yes he is a hunter. he has traps, goes for one shots. However that is only part of his discription. He is also backline support. So what is he now? Hunter or protector?
Yes, he can be both, which he certainly will, but how does it make him special?
How is he different from a guardian, exept he uses a bow and traps?

4. Does it mean we get dragonhunters playing inquisition with the Sylvari now? If I would roleplay, is my Sylvari allowed to become a Dragonhunter? Sylvari are of the dragon.

5. Are Dragonhunter fanatics? Are they the new White Mantle? Do they hunt everything dragon? Will they shut down the inquests dragon energy experiments?

6. Why are only guardians “worthy” to be called dragonhunters? What makes them supperior to other classes? We have seen other classes and whole factions be usefull against and creating tactics and weapons against dragons.

7. The Guardian was proficient in burning already. Why isn`t that taken to the next level. Going AoE, burning masses of dragon minions.

Their explanation of the name raises just too many questions? It`s the revenant all over again. At least that one makes a some kind of twisted sense, if we ignore the timeline issue.

However the Dragonhunter… What were they thinking? Can please some dev adress this issue? The thread, merged, is popping the 700 replie number allready and that in only 24 hours since namedrop.
Most people here looking for some kind of sense or even alternatives.
Doesn`t that warrant any attention?

“Inquisitor” would have been great for this expansion, as it extends beyond simply destroying the dragons and their minions. An inquisitor hunting dragon minions and its corruption? Great. An inquisitor focused on the sylvari? Great. An inquisitor worried about the mursaat and the White Mantle? Great. An inquisitor solving any further mysteries the game may throw at us? Great.

Darkness.9732:

I don’ t understand why you guys don’ t like the dragonhunter.

It’s a terrible, generic name for what it does.

Leo G.4501:

I like Inquisitor. Also, only saw one person mention Exorcist and I like that cause d.grayman.

Exorcist is also a good choice.

Nemitri.8172:

But the name doesn’t fit….

Hearing what Karl said about going beyond defending – guarding, they cross a line that borders in obsession.

Yeah, even the Twitch streamers were describing the new guardian specialization more as a ‘witch hunter’ than a ‘dragon hunter,’ suggesting something along the lines of an Inquisitor, Vindicator, or Vanquisher.

Jelle.2807:

First alternative name to pop in my head was Inquisitor which fits well enough but it has the problem of being a very catholic term while the guardian is supposed to be a religion neutral profession. Spiritual maybe, but not religious.

‘Zealot’ was actually a Jewish political faction in the 1st century, but most people have forgotten its roots.I would say at this point that the term ‘Inquisitor’ is used often enough in science-fiction and fantasy (e.g. Star Wars, Pathfinder, Dragon Age) that its origins are also being diluted.

As I said before, the Pathfinder (essentially a remake of D&D 3rd Edition) uses the ‘Inquisitor’ as a divine-magic, (mostly) bow-wielding monster hunter.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor

StickerHappy.8052:

Where the people complaining now? LOL

Merged into the “Dragonhunter” name thread, but don’t worry. The name is still terrible.

According to this forum and reddit-posted strawpoll (http://strawpoll.me/4303143/), only 8 percent of respondents love the name ‘dragonhunter.’ 36 percent dislike it and 21 hate the name.

lordkrall.7241:

Except for the fact that hunters usually weren’t warriors. They were hunters. They hunted prey. They didn’t fight in battles.

That must suck then for GW2 guardians and dragonhunters since they will be fighting in battles.

lordkrall.7241:

Have you ever heard of the real life profession hunter? A profession that pre-dates Tolkien by thousands of years.

You mean a profession that would be performed by someone with the warrior or ranger class skill sets? Yeah, I have.

lordkrall.7241:

Actually no. I described the real-life version of the profession hunter.

Nah, you described the rangers. Well done, you!

BrotherBelial.3094:

Yep,
Hunter,

Noun.

A person who hunts game or other wild animals for food or in sport.

So a ranger?

Alice.5360:

New warrior specialization is called Weaponuser.

Sure, we all use weapons, but the warrior /specializes/ in it.

/s

I laughed. Well done, though I am afraid that you may have inspired ArenaNet to actually use a name more creative than what they are capable of producing on their own.

keenlam.4753:

While this whole hi-tech army thing worked for Zhaitan, not so much for Mordremoth wasn’kitten Remember what happened at the end of Living Story 2? Total destruction of the pact fleet?

A big part of that also involved the sylvari infiltrators though.

For example, this lore could play out something like below:
So now the survivors of our once-mighty armies are scattered in the Maguuma Jungle, barely surviving the hostile environments as they look around to collect scrap metals and build makeshift weapons to defend themselves.

For those guardians who rather not accepting this humiliating defeat, but look inside themselves and draw the power from their VERY VIRTUES to create weapons (Spear, Wings and Shield) so that they could carry on their mission to protect Tyria.
Not only that, these guardians also “have the balls” (i mean courage and resolve) to solemnly take a vow to hunt down dragons as their lifelong mission and thus take on the name Dragonhunter (similar to Crusader class lore in Diablo 3 expansion).
Bows and traps are reasonable choices as they learn to combat in jungle areas and it fits the hunting theme.

Or they could have taken the name ‘Crusader’ since they are on a crusade against the dragons?

1) You clearly are not familiar with the Diablo 3 Crusader class lore at all, if you think that what you described is similar to the D3 Crusader.

2) What is stopping rangers from “having balls” and vowing to hunt down the dragons as their lifelong mission? Is it just because they are getting druids? “Sorry, Pact survivors. We rangers can’t hunt dragons now, y’all, since we’re sitting this out as druids this expansion.”

I admit that i was taken aback and had my “WTF” moment when the name was first revealed too. but the more i read into it and listened to other people views while keeping an open mind, i think Anet being very creative here and made a good spin on the normal mmo archetype.

Because dragon-hunters are a new archetype in fantasy? Don’t make me laugh. Holy knights killing dragons is old hat.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Ah, but have we seen what will happen once Dragon Hunters become prolific in the world of tyria? We haven’t yet seen what their effect will be on hunting and killing dragons. How would the lore help us when this is a new thing that has been created as a direct response to the Elder Dragon threat? What Dragon Hunters are we going to look to in Tyrias history to tell us how the future battles might go?

This technology was created as a direct response to the dragons too. This magical-technological has taken down several champions and an elder dragon. Why are dragonhunters needed again? What do they even bring to the war effort? Just a name that could easily belong to any other profession.

Ezeriel.9574:

Yeah… there is no chance that they will change the name.

The patents, trademarks, and stories have already been written… no chance.

There’s a wonderful feature that modern computing machines have called “find and replace.” ;p

I say, change the name!

Just wait until necromancers get their new specialization: the Warfighter, which will be justified with great logic like “Well, they are fighting in a war against the elder dragons, and they are using greatswords. The specialization name fits perfectly! Everyone should stop complaining about it.”

Nike.2631:

The Dragon Hunter, in-setting, is something NEW. A direct response to the threat of our age. While players will forge their own path with these tools, the people who developed these techniques did so for one purpose: to resist the Elder Dragons.

Ah, here’s the thing. The lore itself does not lend much credence to that idea. What the lore suggests is that giant armies of magical technology is what will bring down the elder dragons. So far our fights with almost all of the dragon champions and Zhaitan have required never required specialized dragonhunters but lasers, cannons, tanks, air ships, and everything else apart from bows, traps, and people who can sprout wings when jumping.

Nike.2631:

New Weapon: The bow – one of the greatest, most iconic hunting tools in the history of the human race

New Skill category: Traps – one of the most essential hunting tools in the history of the human race.

The Enemy: Elder Dragons – the ultimate peril of the world of Tyria. If we do not strive against them with our every breath, all will die.

New Profession: The Dragon Hunter – “I take the tools of the hunter and turn them against the foes that must be fought. For the good of all.”

The name wasn’t picked out of a hat… Its a graceful bit of shorthand both summing up and evoking many elements the profession encompasses.

Which profession? Do you mean the ‘ranger’ or the ‘thief,’ which both have bows and traps and fight elder dragons?

Nike.2631:

Really? ‘Cause Hunter kinda screams traps and bow as tool of their trade to me. And since I’ll be turning those tools on dragon-minions…

So play a ranger.

lordkrall.7241:

Dragonhunter theme does work for a Guardian.
It’s main purpose is to protect the people. Hunters usage (other than gathering food) is to hunt dangerous creatures that threatens the people. Thus the hunter specialization works quite well with the Guardian theme.

Ha! You really did just describe Tolkien’s rangers.

Ghotistyx.6942:

What other class is themed to follow courage, justice, and resolve? Three virtues required to track and hunt down the largest game.

I just don’t understand how the guardian is the one charged with hunting down the largest game.

Valmir.4590:

Arbiter sounds boring, and surely not tied to dealing with the Dragons Minions (which is basically what the Guardian must do in the Jungle). I for one like the draconic theme behind this specialization, especially because it is not “in the face” but a lot more subtle than that apparently.

It’s not just the guardians will be killing dragon minions. Everyone will have to go into the jungle to kill dragon minions. So how much more “in the face” can you get than ‘Dragonhunter’? Dragonkiller? Dragonslayer? Shoot-Dragon-Until-It’s-Dead? The name is about as subtle as the meteor in the K/T Extinction.

Arbiter may sound correct in English, but in other languages, it sucks.

I just don’t want to be stuck with Dragonhunter. I’m open to other alternatives.

That’s fine and dandy, but why did guardians have to be the ones stuck with this elite specialization and this particular name?

I wonder how many people will be bombarding ANet during the Twitch stream with requests to change the name?

If the community has to get behind a single new name, I am willing to throw my support in for the arbiter.