Guild Wars 2

You will get revealed if you by any means leave area before 4 sec duration has expired.
You do not get revealed if (after) 4 seconds of shadow refuge passed. But quite often you will lose the stealth visual on your character without losing stealth buff from cc abilities.

We should rename backstab to eyepoke and make it do double damage from front instead. So it will make much more sense to be one-shot and therefore will reduce complaints. /sarcasm
About stealth – do not forget that in gw2 stealth is combat ability. This was done to ensure that people will not complain about not seeing the thief coming. Sadly, people were overestimated and are still complaining about thieves’ surprise attacks when it is clearly their fault for not looking around. At very least.
Stealth, being indirect and easily counterable defensive/offensive ability, contributes a lot to gameplay at the moment with the exception of rendering bug.
Stealth is very special here, because it is more of a deception ability than anything else, and that is what is important (and fun) in a game without direct support roles (sadly)

Assassins have such amazing animations in gw with spears and in gw2 it is underwater-only.
And what would be really nice is a weapon set that relies on speed, rather than stealth, to get behind enemy. I miss dash.

Tulisin.6945:

ddrake.5436:

I enter WvW and sPVP with P/P and destroy people. 3 unloads generally kill 1 person at 900 range. If I pop haste I can do that in half the time. nothing is broken with P/P it is working as intended.

Unload is one of the most avoidable thief skills while having mediocre DPS. If you’re killing people with Unload spam, they’re bad.

Well 95% of player base IS that bad. So I don’t think P/P is THAT weak

guys stop ruining good thread

Tagnut, that was said by at very least me on these forums.
Don’t spoil our little game. You are the weakest link, goodbye

Depends, but for the most things you can go for glass cannon build, taking 5% damage on dual skills and 5% crit on dual skills.
Best utilities (considering combat) would be haste (for dual skill) and shadowstep (to sit on target during dual skill). 3rd one is usually the one i switch between SoS/Scorpion Wire/Shadow Refuge/Devourer Venom/Ambush Trap. That is if you plan to do serious damage with this set.
For other things, S/P is without a doubt best support set and works with everything but conditions. Venom share (the only viable thief utility build) benefits most from S/P.

Recharging signet of malice instantly must be awesome in any situation.

Somehow I (active user of P/P) feel discriminated in this topic.
I would agree that body shot is bad and vital shot needs a tweak.
But please, do not say it is boring. I am not going around telling people how boring they are, now am I?

“sorry guys it was really stupid of me to say this without checking it out first, so I edited my post with apology instead of deleting it”

In WvW there is rendering bug that prevents you from seeing other thieves as soon as they leave stealth.
The ability most of them use to do damage is stealth attack on default button 1 – backstab, that does double damage from behind.
They go usually 30/30/0/0/10 in trait trees, taking everything that boosts damage.
This build is specialized in large burst but you might find yourself bit underwhelming to consider yourself being wvw and pvp player – this particular d/d backstab glass cannon build does not contribute to any existent pvp play at the moment and probably never will, as it is only able to perform rather risky chains with single target damage once every around 40 seconds, and might even be a target of a groundslamming nerf due to all the (mostly unrightful, imho, complaints)

But it is still fun and like they say – you better try everything yourself

I wonder why no one ever mentioned ninja scrolls yet
Or the katars

Wrong forum
Wrong game
This game is not about amount of damage. It is about taking or not taking it.
If anything, it is pure defensive builds that need to vanish. Because that IS stupid in a game without any kind of direct support role. Unlike any damage there is.

Just don’t tell anyone. It is really a very evil Desolation tactic. You know, server is full. Too many bad people. That joined just because Desolation was heading up.
So the plan is to lose miserably. Drop down a few tiers so the -_- people get out. Like they did before, during Deso’s first fall. Then, just as soon as free transfers will be done for, Deso will…
I already said too much, don’t mind me.

Someone said “zerg”?
Someone said “turtle?”
Someone said “aoe limit?”
“Men, man the ballistas!”

no, please
it is the defensive specs that need to be nerfed. Maybe people will learn to dodge and bring utility skills into play

Guys, it is weekend. Go out, enjoy last warm days, hang out with friends. Many good people cannot afford spending their whole weekends in game.
Hope to meet you all when it will matter, have fun!

Epic day.
So fun when whole map is working so not a single supply goes to a waste or over cap.
Ridiculous amount of siege even in camps, variety of tactics and good communication.
Sadly, not always.
Keep it up

Signet of Shadows will always take a tick
Rest do not

Thieves either go for venom trait or devourer venom instead of basilisk.
Under almost any conditions untraited basilisk venom can go off randomly even before you land your first valid attack.
I am not a superpro backstabber (only played one for testing purposes) so I cannot tell much on this but theres a lot of uncertainties with signets.
Actually, I’ll go and test this right now
Edit: Results only Signet of Shadows removes single tick of venom on use, even without a target. Other signets do not use up venoms

Please, refrain from using “survive the burst” thing in this game, as it can be taken by some literally as surviving whole pack of damage. The correct would be “avoid the burst” in this game.
Now onto the topic – while necros don’t have strong burst to finish thief in a moment they are by far the best counter as it was already mentioned.
Engineer can blow thief down with just a single mine.
If you are not seeing (not looking around) them coming you should always be ready to be ambushed.

Everything removes venom ticks. Including things that cannot apply them.
That is one great hope for thieves to get rework on

Vitality is good against conditions, otherwise it is limited to once-twice in a battle (depends how many times you can heal yourself to full health). I am not saying it is bad (it is definitely good) but for this kind of build you are not really benefiting from any vitality higher than your toughness.

That is done a lot when with dagger offhand – thieves tend to feel safe in stealth and react more slowly to attacks coming at them when they are hidden – one auto to confirm location, cnd followed closely by backstab (or other moves).
I would recommend dodging or attacking right after stealthing otherwise you put yourself at great risk. Most people start to realize that after CnD the only thing that is changed in battle is that thief is simply not seen and can use stealth attack. Unless you work for it, nothing more.

I mostly will agree with Lokheit, but there is one detail i would want to point out to answer Freigan’s question: Unload is by far, the most damage/initiative efficient ability (except cluster bomb in melee range), so extra initiative only adds to its usefulness – speccing all over into initiative regen would mean at least 20 in acrobatics and 15 in trickery and critical strikes (but you must have a solid 30 + % crit rate). This allows spammable flurry of attacks with decent damage and more theoretical crits/second for sigils/food that proc on crit.
The other way to go, the one I went, is maximizing the damage of a single unload. For purposes of pvp it is 30 deadly, 30 critical strikes, 10 trickery as it offers following: mug (specced glass cannon solid damage addition to unload), dual strike damage (straight benefit to unload) and either immobile on 50% (works wonders with unload) or one more tick on basilisk venom/devourer venom (to hold opponent with them even longer). If you are not comfortable with these, you can take vuln on crit (for pve).
From critical strikes you get 5% damage with guns (solo pve/pvp) or flanking strikes if you are able to get behind enemy at some times (you can also take fury on 50% for awesome synergy, but only if you fight rarely enough or can switch traits regularly), the dual skills crit rate and the bane of all, the 20% on opponents under 50% health.
From trickery you take the 5% damage from behind, or caltrops/buffs on steal for solo pve.
In pve, regular mobs with fall down with vital shot (to get condition up for 10% damage) + unload + pair of vital shots, with stacks of bloodlust/crit rate and omnomberry pie/crit damage food most of the time even just vital shotunload will be enough. (This all in full zerk gear)
In spvp with low surviving ability you won’t be able to do much for team in terms of cappping, but you will have a great damage advantage over many people and rare, but outstanding stopping power (see wvw part)
In wvw this is actually one of the few thief builds that can be efficient in almost any group, ranging from one more person with you to huge zergs, and even alone. As long as you can prevent yourself from being targeted (in groups) or attack first (small group, alone) you will have advantage over almost anyone. Basilisk venom is key ability here, can be coupled with haste (risky, but fun) to attain burst that most people (sadly) do not know how to deal with. Without instant removal of immobile you will most likely get opponent down to 50% with first unload. At this point, your opponent will be immobilized again (if proc is not on cd), and a second 20% boosted unload will most likely destroy what remained of your foe. At 900 range, you will outdamage any ranged dps, but being weak in melee, you have to carry hide in shadows and one more utility to be able to withdraw to safe distance at any time

P/P condition set? No thanks.
Hybrid sets are fine if every skill has purpose distinct enough to be used in some conditions that aree not too limited. eg body shot is only useful for buffed guild claimers, as well as being the only useful skill in this situation = bad.
Head shot – instant interrupt on DEMAND = good (has a very specific role, but useful in many situations)
Black powder – aoe blind field = average (viable for more purposes, but usable in less situations)
Black powder obviously not getting changed at this time, but body shot needs a rework. As for pistol auto, a good way to improve it is to make is a two-shot chain. First one does 2x bleed, seond one has higher weapon damage multiplier

I reallt would like a clarification for this, as my tests showed that thief’s stats are used for at least life steals and condition duration

EasymodeX.4062:

Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

It’s fine for Thieves to have a general class advantage in 1v1. It’s not fine for Thieves to instantly kill almost any 1v1 opponent they find in WvW when they look at them from 900 range.

Again, I am pointing this out. WvW means World vs World, 1v1 means one-on-one.

Dagger storm is epic when used right. In one-on-one fights it can provide crucial defense against ranged attacks on demand and in groups it can be used to reflect projectiles not only shot at you but also at your allies. At that, this is the longest-lasting mass projectile reflecting field that can be moved.

there is a very good synergy between defensive stats. There is a very good synergy for burst stats too (preci, crit damage, power). Condition build stat synergy can be obtained solely from traits (minor) and gears (major).
Burst builds benefit directly from: preci, crit damage, power, might, vulnerability, fury
Condition builds benefit directly only from condition damage and might, with a “cap” on them (eg bleed max 25 stacks from ALL sources) and is largerly unusable (any kind of target that is not player/mob cannon be conditioned, tho cannot be critted too)
Problem is: burst builds are being toned down, condition build remain very specific, and unlike defensive builds, there is no middle between them.
Splitting your stats between tough and vitality increases value of each
Splitting your stats between burst and conditions hurts both
Personally, I am more or so content with condition standing except for the three facts:
Bleed stacks after 25 cap should do instant condition-based damage, and do instant damage to targets that cannot be critted or conditioned, even if a little one
Vulnerability/general damage increase effect should affect condition damage
Gear should have wider selection of combinations of stats

What I would actually love to see is the A-Net’s plans for changes. Or at least clearly state what they want to address. Not the sudden fix inc with zero description and 3/4 of fixes hidden away.
I would rather discuss fixes before they are forced onto anyone

sadly both lyssa and monk runes set have a cd on their effect that exceeds basilisk cd by a solid margin. I did build my thief for lyssa/monk and had to find it out the hard way.
Devourer venom is by far superior to basilisk.

S/D does not benefit from your zerker gear.

1a – some want to rain lead into enemies, not make them bleed
1b – body shot needs rework. As it is it does not work even with 1a
1c – 50% is bit too much for bouncing twice but idea is viable
1d – opness. My build can unload over 25 bullets in 4 seconds. With piercing is way overboard
1e – 900 range is fine on pistols. Consider rifle/shortbow instead
1f – cripple without limitation? Not in this game, will never happen. Moving flanking strikes improves glass cannon ability to do damage even more.
2 – shortbow is the most balanced weapon set for thief. More range, more attacks, more shadowsteps will make it too strong. It is already a must-have for any thief.
3a – sword auto powerful enough. Maybe a little fix for 3rd strike animation for obvious are of effect (stab that hits 180 degrees?)
3b – permavigor in combat is aegis every 3 seconds. Too strong. Sword is powerful enough.
3c – pistol whip had perfect benefit/tradeoff and risk/reward balance, but was cut heavily in damage. Just rolling back the nerf is fine.
3d – fixing pathing to have a guaranteed second hit on non-eveding target is all that is needed.
4a – spider/skale/drake venoms as they are moved to f2-f3-f4. Using one forces 10s cd on others. Devourer remains utility.
4c – yes, + priority to party members
5a – death blossom is strong enough
5b – no cd stealth on demand is op even without damage. Currently, solely the cnd hit req separates people who can counter backstab combo and those who cannot.
6a – daze is a COUNTER. counters should not be randomly thrown around for no reason. Every counter must be on demand
6b – traits need complete or at least significant overhaul. Adressing just one is useless.

You should try p/p as glass cannon. For some reason people say it is weak, but against mindless zerglings it works wonders. Awesome look, epic sounds, range, interrupt.
It has unique feel of power, just standing and raining bullets on your enemies.

ability in skill slot 2 of melee weapon is by default gap closer. Heartseeker fullfilles this role perfectly

I’d love to see how people who complain about mug+cnd+bs combo impossible to counter, deal with, for example, subject alpha in coe.

Oh then I know more. Thief can also two- or even ONE-shot people when manning ballista. Thieves need nerf definitely

Well. Thieves always lived in dark places, being privy to the darkest secrets of the upperworld with noone to tell them what to do. Anyone could come down here, but very few do, and none come back.
Welcome to our place!
(Anything that does not fit into suggestion forum and contains words “thief”, “stealth”, “nerf” goes here)

I am sorry, but without a solid reasoning behind every suggestion it is not valid.
Most suggestion are either grossly overpowering or ridiculously downcutting.
I’ll agree with just ricochet

Leave devourer and basilisk venoms as they are. Move spider/skale/drake to f2-f3-f4 and make triggering one force a 10 sec cd on others.

DanH.5879, please log into the game and type /wiki might
after that you might try to reread list of thief traits. Than come back to edit your post

AoE fields are the best way. There are openings between dodges and blossoms and by the fact that he needs to be on you to apply bleeds you should try dropping fields around yourself. Other incredible almost to the point of cheating counter is any limited open space – cliffs, ledges etc. Let them fall.

We are simply trying to think of something.
Technically speaking, P/P is bad because within one weapon set, out of 5(6) skills, One (+stealthed one) is for condition inflicting. One serves no purpose at all. One does decent direct damage over a number of strikes. One is strictly utility/support. One is with extremely limited use. Fact stands: these skills have no synergy. For the sole reason they were evaluated as skills of another profession, without taking in consideration the sole fact that every thief skill has a requirement for initiative. At any given moment of time, one and only one of available skills will have highest usefulness/initiative ratio.
Basically, all P/P skills are useful, but. In a given build, in a given situation only ONE will be viable.
A-net considered skills only in terms of class balance and thieves’ skills were left unbalanced to each other.

I am sorry for this, but I am in a good mood and can’t resist.
I missed forums for the whole day and don’t have any will to reply to every qq post personally

Dagger / Light
3rd skill: [Switch] your dagger to offhand and confuse enemy with this move (10 sec duration, 5 ini cost) <> [Switch back]. Enemy eyes bleed from blinding speed of this move
4th skill (only during switch): [I have more] Coat the dagger in poison, throw it away in chosen direction, poisoning first enemy it hits. Pull a new dagger out of your sleeve and put it in your main hand. Switch ends
5th skill (only during switch): It was a [Bad Move]. Leave your dagger on the ground, bleeding anyone who steps over and gain 2 sec of swiftness to run away and find a new one in your long and uncomfortable coat. Switch ends
Gun / Light:
3rd skill: Fire a bullet into an enemy’s foot during [Barrel Roll]. Your opponent is crippled for 5 sec. 5 initiative
4th skill: [Reload] your gun, throwing empty magazine under enemy foot, making him trip over (1 sec). Nearby foes are stunned briefly (1/4 sec) by the coolness of the move. Nearby allies are invigorated by this outstanding performance (2 sec). 7 initiative cost
5th skill: Block an attack and counter with a shot that deals more damage to the closer your target is to you. Target at [Point Blank] range will be knocked back. 6 initiative cost

nono it gets small sideway shadowstep to the left when switching from right hand to left and small sideway shadowstep to the right when switching from left hand to right one
That would be cool but not usable sadly
Its more about getting barrel roll, point blank, and switch magazine skills for two-handed gun

two-handed wield of the single gun! that would be epic
wielding a single sword = riposte!
two handed wielding of a dagger = 3rd skill switches the hand you are holding dagger with and skill bar

because it is washed away by water :P

I only moved mug so it will be mutually exclusive with dagger damage trait. I haven’t though of possibility of build that goes 10 into deadly just for mug.
For haste on crit: problem is with the fact that effect is very too strong to remain in tier 2, but the trait itself is too unreliable. Making it more reliable and moving up is more reasonable than letting immobile with 60sec cooldown to remain in tier3. I had to do this because I moved Hidden Killer and needed to balance trait amounts.
Do note that this was meant only as a concept, I am generally working on whole trait picture and what I posted was just most, like, demanded one that addresses most actual issues of this moment.
It may be a bit unfair for a thief currently, but she shadow arts part actually addresses practically the only thief bunker build, while not addressing much more powerful bunkers of other classes. Sadly, I am not competent enough to deal with those
The purpose of this small thing is to deal with 1) backstab glass cannons 2) those stealth-tanking thieves that should not really exist