Guild Wars 2

Ele is 100% viable for duels. When I played my D/D Ele I was unbeaten in every arranged duel I had, not bragging either, the heal builds they can make are just that ridiculous which is part of the reason I quit.

If you are going to duel, I would advise against staff. S/D or D/D are your best bet, with D/D being optimal. Spec for high Water and Arcana, and just watch people struggle to kill you as your regen health constantly while slowly whittling them away.

As a S/D thief, I approve of Ele’s using Ether Renewal. Makes interrupting their heal with tac strike a breeze.

Every other class has some form of interrupt as well, I really don’t see how it’s a big deal.

I also play S/D, and they are less of a problem with this weapon set. I actually don’t have any points into Shadow Arts, and run more of a glass cannon build. I like to just blow them up before they can really get going with bleed stacks with liberal use of Infil. Strike to both immobilize and get free shots in. Plus shadow return can cleanse every time they use Sneak Attack.

I’ve also noticed that a lot of these guys aren’t running shadowstep, so they tend to blow their stealth utils after being immobilized.

Being P/D yourself is also a solid counter, it just comes down to who’s the better player, though I stopped playing it because it just felt a little to cheesy for me.

Some basic tips:

1. Dodge the CnD. Some of these guys are not running any deception utils, and will have no other way to stealth.
2. Immobilize, Cripple, or chill them and when they stealth, watch your auto-attack to see if you’re connecting or not (should complete the full rotation).
3. After about 3s of their stealth, stealth yourself. This will typically blow their sneak attack which is their main source of damage.
4. P/D thieves typically don’t have tons of toughness, they just stealth a lot. That means if you get your timing right, they’ll fall to burst damage.

Were you in a party together? That’ll do it.

As others have said, 2v1 when enemies are coordinated, or just not terrible players is not really feasible. At best, you can survive and run.

If you’re playing bads, 2+v1 is sometimes feasible if you’re good. The key I’ve found is to plan for your defenses, have plenty of stun breaks, condition removal, and preferably some CC.

CC will help you lock down the squishiest target and get rid of them first. The trick is to even the odds as fast as possible both though quick kills + CC. Also, if I’m running up on a 2v1 I don’t hesitate to use my elite, chances are likely I’ll need it.

I’ve also found that WvW tends to be easier to pull this off on. While there are no shortage of bad players in sPvP, people do tend to make better builds IMO.

OP: To go along with what the previous posters said:

You won’t unlock the ability to put points into traits until level 11 I believe. However, if you’d like to get a feel for how the profession plays at max level, jump into the Heart of the Mists (pvp Lobby) by clicking the two crossed swords at the top of your screen.

Here you will be able to set all traits, refund them at will, use any available weapon set, rune set, and general stat amulet all for free. You can then test your build on training dummies, AI characters, or jump into an actual pvp game (and probably get slaughtered the first time you try, lol).

Again though, for now just enjoy exploring. When you get higher level, then you can worry about these things.

The ability would be great if it just had the same pathing as the ranger equivalent skill. It’s still not all that bad IMO.

Also, I vote to call our new skill “Thieving Strike”

Soldier’s + Berzerker’s would be ideal, but until then a solid mix of Valk / Knights / And Berzerker’s works ok too.

Sounds like you’re on the right path!

Troponin.4081:

Kerithlan.1659:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Strike

Just swap up your bar for the duration of the fight. Use sword/pistol for the interrupts and shortbow for kiting/range/better dodging (you’ll dodge better when you can clearly see what’s important or not).

That might not be the best setup but it’s a decent enough start to get yourself going. Just play around with it until you get yourself into a groove.

I tried hide in shadows, but every friggin time I stealth, the enemy resets!! How annoying is that? I have to use all non-stealth abilities during the fight or he reset. :/

The fight I have the most issues with is the Charr that stands at the tower, just beside the ghost areas with cannons etc. I think his auto attack bleeds, so you get two dodges, then you’re screwed.

Well, another option as the other poster said is Infiltrator’s Strike with sword.

Shadowstep also cures a condition I believe.

You could also wait until you get Shadow’s Embrace, then just come back and do those skill challenges. I’m not sure which ones you’re referring to though, as I had no real problems with conditions at any level on thief.

I run S/D.

I like to open my fight with Ice drake venom + Infiltrator’s strike, this roots them, and will severely limit movement. I then CnD, which blinds him and all his clones via Cloaked in Shadow. Then I start my usual Tactical Strike → Crippling Strike combo, trying to keep him locked down.

If he blinks away, I’ll CnD + Steal to him, which also is traited to give me fury. If he dazes me, I’ll use the Shadow Return on my Infil. Strike, the infil strike him again and keep him locked. The key here is to limit their movement as much as possible. Chill, Cripple, Immob., Daze, all work wonders. Often times mesmers will not be specced very tanky, so taking them down usually happens in ~5 seconds.

If they stealth, don’t panic. Wait a second or 2 and then stealth yourself. While in stealth, take your time and make sure you have the right target. I find it easier to take down mesmers with my thief than any of my other chars.

After playing quite a bit of S/D thief, here are my thoughts:

1. Dancing Dagger should have initiative cost reduced.

2. Flanking Strike’s pathing could really be improved. Right now, it seems an enemy has to be practically immobilized for this thing to actually land in its entirety, and rarely seems worth using over sword chain #1.

3. Access to some form of stability other than popping Dagger Storm would help S/D a lot. Right now it’s far to easy to just get pinballed around in melee range and being completely unable to do anything about it except shadowstep out and potentially reset a fight (which is also a common complaint among even people who don’t play thief, who likes a guy who has to run away constantly?)

4. Crippling Strike (3rd in the sword #1 chain) currently only triggers if you perfectly connect the whole combo. It would help a lot if you trigger this skill without have to actually land the #2, as landing a cripple even if missing the rest helps ensure you can stick around in that melee range without being kited 24/7.

It’s a tough fight no matter what. D/D eles running their typical build will typically be running a lot of condition removal, heals, stun breaks, and have auras on top of that. S/D has the best chance IMO, but just beware of shocking aura, if that pops up, you’ll probably need to shadowstep back if you get stunned and wait a few seconds.

If you’re a condition necro, you’re practically the hard counter to this build. P/D thieves hate necros.

Get 8+ stacks of bleed on yourself, then use Plague Signet / Deathly Swarm / Putrid Mark and watch the thief melt himself.

Also, dodge the friggin CnD. When he gets close, he’s not there to give you a hug, he’s going to try to stealth with a melee attack. Dodgeing this makes him blow quite a bit of init, keeps him revealed, AND cuts his damage by a lot (sneak attack is the hardest hitter for P/D).

His only other forms of stealth come from (potentially) his heal and some utils. If he uses blinding powder, not much you can do, just dodge when you expect the Sneak Attack. Shadow Refuge? Throw down marks in the red circle, especially Reaper’s Mark, and it’ll most likely fear him out of his SR.

Take a look at his build. 0 Stealthing utilities. How does he stealth so often? He CnD’s, waits 3 seconds, and CnD’s again.

1. Wait three seconds.
2. Dodge the CnD. Done.

Doomdesire.9365:

Not possible to go from 50% hp to 100% each time he stealthed. With a max healing build you heal around ~400 HP every second in stealth. Seeing as he was P/Ding he was probably using CnD and his main stealth. That’s 3 seconds, or 1200 HP. Now unless his HP is 2400HP, there is no way he could have gone from half to full every time he stealthed, not the way you described it. Even if he had regen, foods, it still doesn’t add up. Something is flawed in either your story, or the thief player himself(hacks, exploits). More likely the first option

This. Even with shadow rejuv, and full deception utilities AND landing every single CnD (which would be your guys’ fault), it’s not possible to gain that much health back from stealth unless he blew his heal too, in which case it’s not available for another 30s.

These guys are annoying to hit, absolutely true. But definitely not impossible to fight. At their very worst, if you have condition removal and can dodge sneak attack, these guys won’t kill you and they may run away before you can kill them.

I think Signet of Shadows itself is fine, it’s just that we don’t have access to as much swiftness as easily as something like a D/D ele, who can stack it to ridiculous durations and make it hard to catch people for melee range.

Again, as someone said, Fleet Shadow should be fixed and then I think our mobility would be perfectly fitting: Fast all the time, can go full on sanic speeds if you can get stealth.

I could see it working ok for P/D, but something melee like S/D, D/D, or just about anything else it’s probably not worth it as you’ll need to be in melee range and this could easily hurt more than help.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Mesmers. Even as a thief I’ve been able to take down any class, and i can down a mesmer, the problem comes from finishing them off. Only when they are down do I have trouble finishing them off for stealthing or cloning etc. Any thieves out there with advice to help me out with this class? I just dont have the durability to play the guessing game.

If you’re saying that you can’t find them to finish them off, that’s easy: CnD one of their downed clones, wait about 2 seconds and then down the real mesmer with the red arrow over their head.

If you’re saying you’re too squishy and they down you in their downed state, all I can suggest is stop running zerker amulet and get some points in Shadow Arts.

Adaneshade.2409:

Jericho.4521:

OP: No good thief wants to be lumped in with the rest, I understand.

However, a lot of what I’ve seen proposed as nerfs would hurt thieves across the board, but especially S/D, P/D, or anything that uses stealth offensively for sustained rather than burst damage. It’s probably hard to make even minor nerfs without hurting or even ruining some of the less popular builds, which is ultimately what I’m afraid of.

Nerfing backstab directly would do nothing to hurt the other builds. Heartseeker’s damage I really feel is quite balanced as it’s really only valuable as a finisher. It could have range shortened just a hair and the initiative cost raised by 1, though.

Agreed. I was more referring to changes to stealth, especially the revealed timer. Too much time added to it means that S/D and other rare-ish builds could face extinction. There’s some other stuff too but I can’t think of it now.

Backstab getting a damage nerf in PvP would be a long time coming IMO.

OP: No good thief wants to be lumped in with the rest, I understand.

However, a lot of what I’ve seen proposed as nerfs would hurt thieves across the board, but especially S/D, P/D, or anything that uses stealth offensively for sustained rather than burst damage. It’s probably hard to make even minor nerfs without hurting or even ruining some of the less popular builds, which is ultimately what I’m afraid of.

Well, I think you’re right about stealth when it comes to defenses, no matter what people are going to try to kill you. However, it’s also crucial to P/D offense, because sneak attack is definitely our hardest hitter with that build.

Therefore, if your only method of stealthing is your heal or CnD, a smart player will prevent you from landing your CnD often, which can cut your DPS by a lot, and eventually get you killed. Your only other option then would be to blow your heal if you’re running HiS. Even having 2 or 3 more ways to stealth in a fight can pretty dramatically affect how quick you can drop someone.

Also, I guess I didn’t mean drop Deadly Arts completely, just down to the minor trait. I also like that minor a lot, but mug is not really as useful on this build IMO. Plus, with only 5% extra condition duration, that will round to a whole 6 seconds if you use the typical 2x centaur, 2x krait, 2x afflicted runes. This frees up one of your weapon sigils, as you would no longer need sigil of Agony for the full duration (Bleed only ticks damage on full seconds, don’t know if you know or not). So that’s a nice bonus.

If you’re looking to be evasive strictly in the sense of having dodges, that’s one thing. However, I would advise dropping Acrobatics down to 15, trickery to 20 and pick up plenty of Shadow Arts. Good options here are Cloaked in Shadow, Hidden Thief, Shadow’s Embrace, Shadow Rejuv., and probably some others I’m forgetting. Pick up lots of deception utils, and you’ll be a real pain to track / hit.

I would also drop Deadly Arts, as P/D direct damage is not the greatest anyways, and if you spec your amulet / armor for direct damage, you’ll be missing out on the best part of P/D: bleed damage.

nerva.7940:

anyone arguing for this prof is maining a thief and will pretty much be dismissed. youre also missing the main point: most survivability, most burst, most mobility. period. no trade-offs. this is simply not allowed in any balanced pvp game. letting this crap go on for 4 months is absolutely nuts. my buddy stopped playing his thief because he was sick and tired of owning people in wvw with a few button spams.

So you call out thieves with biased, unfounded statements. Then when people correct you, your argument is basically “lalalala I can’t hear you!! lalala.” Mature.

Anyways, I’d love to see what fantastic build you know of that has any of the above in combination with “best survivability,” or better yet just has “best survivability” period.

Mogar.9216:

Are thieves over the top? Well, I play a bunker ele I don’t think they are.
Are most thief issues brought up on the forums are l2p issues? I would say most are and a few are not.

However I STILL think thief class needs some change and/or nerf depends how you look at it. The burst damage MUST go. Why? because it’s killing the pvp player base . For GW2 to have good pvp we need LOTS of people playing it above any other issue. Put yourself in the shoes of a new player. You are trying pvp out for the first time. You get in spvp with your started gear and BOOM you get back stabbed for 10k and die in 2 sec. This keep happening over and over. What would you do? 99% of the people would say kitten this I’m going to play another game where I have a slim chance of winning.

If we want pvp in GW2 to not turn into ghost town thief BURST damage must be nerfed or we will not get many new players in pvp if any at all. Toon down burst and give thief more tools to survive.

I was in those shoes, ALL of us were in those shoes. Most of us asked for help, learned more about combat mechanics, and adapted by becoming much better players overall and gained a lot of valuable experience.

Now I don’t necessarily disagree that burst should be adjusted (not nerfed to crap, not erased, just eased up a bit.) However, I don’t see why these new players should not have to go through some of these processes to improve.

If they leave the game the second they join because “omg this guy burst be down whatamievendoing nerfplz,” chances are they would’ve left because of some other reason (bunkers, don’t like combat, can’t dodge, don’t know what condition removal is, etc.)

Also, giving thieves more survival options instead of burst will likely generate far more tears than we’ve seen yet, and this is coming from a survival-based thief.

Kiting works extremely well on P/D condition builds, but your biggest weakness will be of course condition necros, and anyone else who has tons of condition removal (D/D Eles, guardians, etc.)

Thief has a lot of potential build variety, despite being highly over represented in pvp with D/D burst builds. My favorite at the moment is my own version of Sword / Dagger dazelock build, which also maximizes shadow arts and tons of shadowsteps to be very tricky.

Overall, we’re doing extremely well. Some argue far too well, but you can be the judge of that.

This is the build I run when using P/D, though I think I’ve officially fallen in love with S/D:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cR333FCRwk0-I5FOkd0;9;44-TEJ;407A2;026-awl6;2dZm9fRk01FQ

Works fairly well. The minor in Deadly Arts looks weird, I know. But easy access to poison really helps boost the DPS and cuts their heals down.

Also, I like have deception utils instead of venoms, makes you a much harder target to track even when your enemies are a little bit smarter and know to avoid the CnD.

I like this idea a lot. Would force us thieves to be more crafty about where we move when we stealth, and hopefully could bring a much needed tissue to the tears of some of the forum goers these days.

Pyrial.2917:

The other problem is there is no real penalty for bad play with the initiative system. If you miss an ability, for instance using HS out of range (or it being dodged) you should be penalized with additional initiative use.

I like this idea. I think it could be a solution to a couple of things people hate about thieves, especially CnD. If you were to miss a CnD, you could be penalized more, giving players even more of an incentive to dodge the CnD and thereby giving a more reliable way of preventing stealthing.

Rezz.8019:

What exactly would thieves do if they didn’t have HS? Wouldn’t they just be useless? Mesmer should have portal nerfed/removed, other than that it’s perfectly fine.

Thieves would be far from useless without it. However, a simple change could be changing the auto-tracking of the leap to be more like the manual Burning Speed from the Ele, where you actually have to aim it and can easily miss if you do it brainlessly.

Einlanzer.1627:

Jericho.4521:

I heard some other people talking that there was a hard cap on pistol bleed durations for some odd reason.

Anyways, 6 – 7s is really pretty decent anyways when you factor in sneak attack. It WOULD be really nice though if they buffed it to base 5s, like the necro’s sceptre 1 skill.

It would be, but the reason it’s 4 seconds is because Vital Shot is supposed to fire faster and therefore be able to maintain a higher stack. I think, as I’ve mentioned 100+ times, that boosting Vital Shot’s recast speed to something closer to what was originally intended would do wonders.

Agreed. Although I think I’ll need to invest in scuba gear for the tsunami of tears that will follow on these forums if they actually gave thieves a straight buff like that. We are satan incarnate, afterall.

I like this idea! Mirror matches are always pretty cool to watch.

First things first though, we need some basic PvP additions like ladders, spectator, etc.

Ele is difficult to get into, but if you have the passion and really work hard at it (assuming you’re brand new) you can pull off some really amazing stuff in combat.

I wouldn’t advise trying to play ele by sitting in one attunement, it might work, but IMO you’ll never be nearly as effective as those who can swap with purpose.

I’m actually probably cool with this. There’s been other suggestions where stealth is just “Ok, reduce stealth time to 2 seconds max, and increase cost, AND knock out of stealth, AND AND AND,” yeah. This doesn’t seem too bad, as it wouldn’t hurt the ability to use stealth offensively that much.

However, as someone else pointed out, this would leave all the big burst builds virtually unscathed, which is what a good majority of people are crying about anyways.

Agreed. I think sPvP should give some sort of incentive other than armor that nobody else sees….Because nobody else in your guild plays sPvP.

Paracidic.5821:

Oh, you got GW2 for Christmas? I believe that your post history says otherwise.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Herr-der-Friedhoefe-2490/showposts

Please, if you want to get your point across, back it up with true evidence. Don’t lie and twist stories around to make things as you see fit.

Paracidic cannot into reading comprehension

Anyways, yeah I’ve been seeing a lot of unusually scrubby players as well. I expect a flood of threads on these forums soon for “OMG NERF X.”

Well….More than usual anyways.

Akumetsu.8591:

thieves are fine atm. please stop making threads about how good we are when people just need to spend more time fighting them to get a feel for how to fight them.

Seriously, this.

You know P/D thieves are ALL condition damage right? Who doesn’t carry condition removal these days?

Ok, and stealth comes too frequently. Easy solution: Dodge or interrupt the CnD. It’s another one of the biggest telegraphed attacks in the game, not because of the animation, but if the P/D thief is running towards you, that is exactly what he’s trying to do. Thieves also hate getting immobilized, and will blow shadowstep for it (assuming they even have it).

Making them blow a 6 Init attack is a big deal. Not only are they visible still, but now they can’t use that for something else, like DB. It takes several seconds to come back up, and seconds in a fight can be an eternity if you have no other option but to spam 1 and eat whatever is coming your way.

P.S.: I would love to know what classes you think are completely incapable of handling a P/D thief.

Odarion.2947:

Hey guys,

I’m just coming back to the game since August and my main used to be Necro, but it still seems to get rofl stomped by most melee. I understand if you’re a good player you probably can do alright, but I’m struggling to 1v1 people sometimes…

I was wondering what a fun prof is if I want to be able to 1v1 people without having to be a complete pro to beat mediocre players, and someone that doesn’t die when 4 or so people roll up on you trying to stun/knock down you from 100-0.

Also I would like the class to be highly wanted in TPvP paid and free.

I appreciate your feedback!

Thanks,
Oda

If you’re struggling with 1v1 on anything, you’re going to struggle with it on probably anything else. Some people will say thief, mesmer, warrior or something along those lines, but if you only spec to be able to kill noobs, you’ll pick up very bad habits and get ripped up the second you encounter someone who knows your tricks.

That said, if you want to be slippery and escape fights you can’t win:

1. Thief
2. Elementalist

Ele with cantrips is a very hard target to lock down, and they can escape fairly easily via RTL. Thieves for obvious reasons: Shadowsteps, stealth, heartseeker away. All work well.

I heard some other people talking that there was a hard cap on pistol bleed durations for some odd reason.

Anyways, 6 – 7s is really pretty decent anyways when you factor in sneak attack. It WOULD be really nice though if they buffed it to base 5s, like the necro’s sceptre 1 skill.

D/D eles are, along with mesmers, one of the best duelists you can have. It does take some skill to perform well with however.

The only tip I can really give is try to limit their movement by throwing a lot of CC their way. This will make them blow their Cantrip utilities to break out typically, then just wail on them as hard as you can.

Most D/D eles run a balanced build, which offers moderate offense with high healing power, lots of stun breaks and condition removal. These guys are still vulnerable to burst.

Others seem to be running a glass cannon type ele. I like to treat them like glass cannon thieves, avoid their opener and try to kite them down. Remember, they have gap closers, but no good ranged attacks.

Open, if you’re new to PvP don’t sweat it. Necro was my first character, and the first I PvP’d on. I remember getting owned left and right with every new char I made, especially my necro.

First of all, we need to know what kind of build you are running.

Second, don’t worry about being outnumbered. It usually means you will lose if you are fighting at least equally skilled opponents, in a 1v2 or 1v3. The only times I win these are if the other players are absolute garbage.

Also, necros are not really the best 1v2’ers out there, mostly due to a lack of stability, stealth, or invulnerability making it much more difficult to finish a downed player when you’ve got someone else beating on you. They ARE very good, but I think they really shine in group fights (those 3v4’s you were talking about..) when you can get off a good epidemic.

Solori.6025:

zone.1073:

Make portal a PvE only skill.

I agree with this.

I’d like to second this. It’s too awesome to not have for dungeons, and far too necessary for a tournament match.

Changing it across the board would hurt mesmers too much IMO.

I would say in both PvE and PvP thieves have excellent survivability. I’d even go so far as to say it’s TOO good when geared for glass cannon compared to other classes.

Stealth is an amazing mechanic that easily makes up for the lack of raw defensive stats. I can survive as well as my Elementalist could but typically with far less effort, and even have more ways of escaping hopeless situations alive.

Frye.4608:

Good video! It really says it all.

Some still argue you are slow or should have somehow checked out all 4 enemies whether they happened to be a GC thief.

Cognitive dissonance. We all suffer from it! Let’s reject the obvious because… well, just because!

I’d be embarrassed to post a video of myself chasing a lowbie ranger only to get literally outplayed by a silly backstab thief. It’s not about checking every player necessarily, but if you run no condition removal, blow your teleport and dodges, or have no access to stability as a Guardian of all things…You’re just asking for it.

How many people don’t know about the backstab build still? They’re common enough to slot at least one defensive utility that will counter them in such a way.

After all that…I actually somewhat agree with the sentiment that thief burst is still too high. Still, that’s all the video shows, not that these thieves are somehow impossible to beat.

Faeyd.5094:

Builds around DB have to be the worst thief build going (apart from deliberatly gimping yourself). I’ve seen these fellas come flipping at me in spvp a lot recently and they are simply food to a P/D thief.

Agreed, unless P/D is their second weapon set

I like to open with pistol, then swap for DB when they get too close or if a thief pops SR.

Condition removal + dodge / teleport / stability all would have probably saved you here.

Regardless, you completely blew past the thief for several seconds just to chase down a lowbie ranger.

Glass cannon thieves do a ton of damage quickly, yes. They also get their stuff slapped by anyone who breaks out of their combo, in fact outside of their combo they are probably the easiest kills you’ll get.

Why don’t you experiment with various builds in the Mists? It’s free, and playing several games along with dueling random people can really help you figure out where you want to take your character.

It’s obviously not the same as WvW, but at least you can try out the various amulets and weapon sets. You’ll probably learn very quickly if a build works for you or not. Don’t just go with the flow, a lot of these copy / paste builds are really not all that good. You’ll likely need some more survivability if you are going to roam solo.

P.S.: Backstab still works, but I personally wouldn’t recommend using it. When you encounter (and you will..) smarter players, they’ll punish you hard for using it.

Depends how both are built, really. As a condition thief, I’ve never had trouble with any type of guardian, but I could see how a glassy burst thief would be pretty much unable to kill a bunker guard.

Steal is amazing. I have a condition thief, and I use it to open and apply poison from 900 range. The extra skill it gives you can be invaluable. AoE fear, Whirling axe, MOAR stealth, gunk applying lots of conditions, all good stuff.

I also have it traited with Hidden Thief and it stealths me right off the bat too, letting me open with my strongest attack and generally confusing the enemy right off the bat. Also have Bountiful Theft, which can rip boons and give myself vigor. I’d say it’s a very nice profession mechanic at least in PvP. PvE is a little more lackluster, but when traited it can do some amazing things.

Yeah, drop the points in Crit Strikes and put those in Shadow Arts. I would also advise dropping Trickery for Acrobatics, but that’s up to you.

Also, Runes are up to you, but if you leave 20 in Deadly arts, with 2x centaur, 2x krait, 2x affliction and one sigil of agony you can reach a perfect even 7s on vital shot. this is important because the damage from bleeds only ticks on full seconds.