Guild Wars 2

Kryptorchid.7620:

All my post was saying is that the server has players on it 24/7, vastily more than the cap in WvW. If they want a better WvW experience, they need to get their large "off-peak population interested and engaged in WvW.

You’d have an easier time squeezing water from a Rock. Every server is a random mix of PvE, PvP, and PvX players. The percentages of each will vary, sometimes vastly. One thing that IS certain is that Henge’s percentage of PvP players is easily much higher than most due to the Titan Alliance and taking into account the Server Rankings + Open Transfers, HoD has attracted even more. Trying to convince pure PvE players to PvP is hard enough as it is. Trying to do that with the odds completely against them due to the enemy having superior organization is neigh impossible.

I said mirror Alliance and I meant it. The only feasible way Henge gets defeated in a 1 week or 2 week match up is if a large and reputable PvP Guild forms an alliance of equal numbers on a rival server. That or if Titan itself falls apart from within either due to drama or thinning numbers over time.

This is the reason that real Country’s have Drafts or Mandatory Military service. Simply telling people to join the fight does not field enough people to combat an enemy whose primary existence is military domination (with all other things being even).

Plainly said, your proposed solution isn’t a solution. It’s unrealistic. Barring some very unlikely scenarios or the passing of a good bit of time, Henge will continue to dominate and people will continue to be discouraged by it.

Kryptorchid.7620:

I am not being dense and statistically that is close to impossible. I am making a point that there are plenty of people on these servers; the fact that they are not queuing for PvP isn’t HoD’s problem. It is the Server Community’s problem. Overall, people on those servers just do not have the overall pride and desire to fight like HoD does (this is partly due to the high concentration of WvWers on HoD, and also a defeatist mentality of the other servers), so they don’t win. So the people complaining about “the night zerg” of HoD, do in fact have the population to make one of their own, but it will take work to organize and get people involved in WvW.

The other issue, like you state, is the player’s who flocked to HoD. Once again, this is not at any fault of the players on HoD; ArenaNet is at fault for letting free, unmitigated transfers to every server.

If the community on each server can’t band together to mobilize their already existing, playing populations, then what else can be done?

No one is saying that it’s HoD’s fault that other servers can’t field the same numbers. Though, If I’m not mistaken, HoD is the home to the giant Alliance of WvW only Guilds that was created and recruited through every major GW2 information source pre-launch (Titan Alliance)… the intent of which WAS specifically to field more consistent and organized WvW players than every other Server.

So to say that other servers simply need to (to paraphrase) get their stuff* together and that it’s possible for them to provide a challenge because overall server pops are similar is, to put it quite frankly, BS.

It’s foolish to think that anything less but the creation of a mirrored Alliance would be capable of providing a true challenge over a long period of time. Even an alliance between the other two servers couldn’t hope to provide sustained competition throughout the entire period of the match up simply because it would be considerably more difficult to keep things anywhere near as organized as the Titan Alliance on HoD.

A quick google search brings me to their website which boasts of 16 Guilds from all over the world. The site alone shows over 1000 members. While not all 1000 members are online at all times and some Guilds that are members are not 100% WvW all the time, at any given time this Alliance is capable of fielding larger numbers of organized groups than every other server and it shows.

None of this is against any ToS. It’s not breaking any rules or anything of the sort. It IS completely on the opposing servers to try to counter Titan Alliance’s strength and organization. However, this is nowhere near an easy task to accomplish so you shouldn’t act as if it is.

Hit box is fine. Just work on timing it.

The loss of initiative is definitely to punish but that’s how all Thief skills work. If c/d returned initiative on miss or was a guaranted stealth it would be too effective. The best way to ensure it connects is to set it up with a cc. If you want to steal before you c/d you can hit c/d right before you steal and it starts the cast first, making it more likely to connect.

Sjach Darasv.3729:

DS use is not to complicated to grasp, it is an extra life pool if needed, a semi decent CD on fear, and it may only be 1 sec but traited it can be a 2 sec fear that does damage, an ability that channels damage and if exited out of shroud at the right time will channel while not in shroud refilling your life force pool while giving you access to your other abilities. You can also weapon swap while in shroud regardless of whether your swap is on CD or not so it can be used for a combo chain 2 with a staff swap to scepter/whatever to stack more bleeds, DS fear, swap back to staff before the cd would normally be back up exit shroud and 2 again to put even more bleed on them and fear with 5, not to mention if chained properly, 3/4 will combo hit. Well mastery with ground targeting, convert their boons to conditions another well to convert your own conditions to boons. There is so much possibility and utility with it, you have to try out the different ways it can be used and find which style of it suits you.
[edited for typos >.>]

And this is exactly why he said it’s a difficult class to master and to take the time to figure it out. The problem is the people complaining don’t want to have to use such a complicated “rotation” to get the damage they’re looking for. On one hand people want “skillful” play but on the other they want basic skill usage to see big damage numbers.

Ecliptica.7509:

Jest im total agreed with u, and i understand that synergy. but that only works in teams, not in pugs. My point of view is for the SPVP not Tournaments (i apologized if i wasnt clear).

But you can’t balanced for SPvP and TPvP separately. Adjust for one and the other becomes imbalanced. TPvP is a more serious avenue of competition and as such should take precedence so long as SPvP isn’t irreparably damaged.

Ecliptica.7509:

And thats not okey, because….?

U prefer that go zerg and killing anything thats moves with 100% dmg builds, no important if i win, im going to have a lot of points, is better?

Because it doesn’t solve the problem but shifts it. From Glass Cannon to Tanky Builds. As it is now, Glass Cannon isn’t that powerful provided you have a well balanced team. It’s not unlike joining PvP Matches in other games. Sometimes you end up with no healers while the opposing team has 4. Team with healers will die less. It’s the nature of random match ups.

Also, Im saying Reduce the busrt damage, not eliminate… I’m sure it will remain viable in Tournaments.

I have to be clear with this, if a hight % of ppl are doing the same over and over, thats causes ppl to do the same it become a caos. if u enter a SPVP and saw Thieves every where with warriors just because the burst damage, u have to admite that something is wrong…

Yes.. with the population of players. People will tend to choose the path that they perceive to be the easiest though perceptions can often be deceiving. As the game matures, people will see the strength in other builds and the weakness in the current popular builds. Things will change but it takes time.

Yes.. with the population of players. People will tend to choose the path that they perceive to be the easiest though perceptions can often be deceiving. As the game matures, people will see the strength in other builds and the weakness in the current popular builds. Things will change but it takes time.

Im a Ranger, with near 2k toughness and i fight 3 v 1 and that 3 dosent have thieve/warrior… im goint to do a nice battle, why? because my build is semi-tanky, BUT if there 1 thieve in that 3s im dead, instantly. Nothing i can do about it.
(Im not saying i have to win a 3v1…)

Because that’s the build of the Thief. I’m a conditions Thief and if I fight you 1v1 it will be fairly even simply because my Conditions eat through your Toughness and I’m not quite as squishy as Glass Cannon Thief.

And yes, in a 3v1 with against no Glass Cannon you’d last longer than a 3v1 with a Glass Cannon.. but at the same time if it’s a 3v1 with all 3 being Condition builds, you’ll die even faster because your Toughness doesn’t defend Conditions. It’s the nature of the game.

BlackDeath.7834:

All thieves WILL want to use pistol whip or heartseeker over and over (depending on the build) because it is their MAIN damage source. Thieves do not take much skill at all to play and to be honest their damage is way too high for the amount of mobility they have currently. Sure you can say they are squishy, but they ALSO have the most amount of evades in the game, not to mention stealth to evade attacks. And one of the most overpowered elites in the game (Thieves guild), Your argument seems invalid.

Stealth does not evade. If your attack is initiated before Stealth, it still hits them through the stealth. This includes channeled ranged abilitys like Mesmers Unload, Thief Unload and the channeled long bow attack that Rangers have. Pets have similar behavior.

Edit to clarify:
If a Thief stealthes and the attack was evaded, he Shadowstepped or Dodged while stealthed.. which would’ve evade regardless of stealth.

Joosedup.6835:

Jest.9276:

I’m not really sure what the spirit behind this is. Glory rank is pretty much just a gateway for aesthetic gear… but you get higher level aesthetic gear from winning tournaments. So is the glory point distribution primarily for earned progress for the teams even when they don’t win?

I know why it’s a concern in SPvP just doesn’t seem like it should be that big of a deal for tournament play.

While it is, in the end, a gateway to better looking gear, it’s also a sign of progression. Why should one role be punished more than all the others in terms of this progression, even when they may be doing their specific job just as well? In terms of tournaments giving higher tier aesthetic gear, that is true. But, what may be aesthetically pleasing to one person may not be the case with another. Your options are also very limited with the tournament gear, as it basically only gives one “tier” of availability. If you check out the PvP locker, you can preview some of the gear you can get at higher levels of glory, and to me a lot of those pieces are very aesthetically pleasing.

I’ll have to disagree with you on your last point. It would be even more beneficial for this change to occur in tPvP than in sPvP because of the coordination involved in one and the lack-of in the other. This lack of coordination is caused by winning actually meaning something in tPvP while this isn’t the case in sPvP. You don’t really gain anything extra by winning in sPvP, so I’ll bekittenif I’ll sit and guard a point and gain next to no glory instead of roaming to accrue massive gains in glory.

This change would also be better suited for tPvP because unless you’re solo queueing, which defeats the purpose of tPvP to begin with IMO, you know who you’re playing with. They’re all probably around your skill level and so in an ideal world you would all gain a similar amount of glory. In sPvP, I don’t want to be punished by sharing all of my 250+ glory with someone I don’t even know, who more than likely is running a terrible glass cannon build and is rocking 50 points.

Well yes, I understand that in TPvP playing roles is all the more important.. I was just under the impression that since Glory = Gear and TPvP Wins = Gear that Glory would be less important unless you’re middling in the Tournaments.

JonPeters.5630:

Let me try and clarify myself a bit more. Death Shroud is very powerful because it gives Necromancer access to a secondary health bar which is is much more reliably renewable than normal health is for other professions. On top of that it essentially also gives them a 3rd weapon set that they can use to circumvent the basic weapon swap cooldown to reliably bounce between powerful skills in 3 different sets. For both of these reasons, Necromancer has a high power ceiling but also an extremely high learning curve.

In the current condition heavy meta-game, there is a lot of condition removal. The problem this is causing for Necromancers is that they do not have a lot of build diversity in this meta, because they don’t have any great power builds they can turn to. What I would like to try and do is increase build diversity without increasing effectiveness because I don’t believe we have really seen what strong Necromancers can do yet.

Hopefully that explains a bit where we stand. We are still working towards getting rid of all of the bugs in everyone’s skills and traits at which point we can get a much better idea of where everyone stands. That time will also give us the chance to see where the large amount of current players actually takes the meta game.

Jon

/slowclap

Skolops.2604:

You also repeat the fallacy of discussing these issues as if everything were a 1 on 1, in which case you’d be correct. Turn that into a 3v3 or a 5v5 and it’s an entirely different story.

While true, the match then turns into which group has the right tools, best synergy, and actually works to support each other. Which is how I feel group fights should be determined.

Odd numbered fights are the wild card and there really isn’t a way to balance that.

Jeweler and Leatherworker are the most beneficial to you in regards to static stats. However cooking is incredibly valuable in that it can temporarily boost any stat you need at any time without sacrificing another stat.

For example, later in the game, exotics have a chance of dropping off enemy mobs. Those mobs are still pretty tough to kill. So with cooking, you can eat food that gives you more Magic Find to increase your chance to get good drops while still gearing for whatever stats benefit your build the most in PvE. Then, if you’re not concerned about increasing drop rates, eat food that temporarily increases a damage stat to kill things faster.

Personally, I’m a jeweler and a leatherworker and I’ve found that I have to stop and farm quite a bit to keep leatherworker current. With some changes they’ve made to the drop tables, the Fine Materials (blood, fangs, venom, etc..) that I need to make the gear drops fairly rarely so it’s making things a little tougher.

In hindsight, cooking would’ve probably been better because leveling gear can be bought with Karma or for fairly cheaply on the Trading Post and once at 400, the Magic Find boosting food can help you acquire mats for whatever third profession you may want to level.

Demonical.1039:

His first line basicly tell us Necro is hard to master, hence most problems arise from our ability to properly play it,

Not the ability to properly play it but to experiment and see how well various builds can work. I’ll use Thief for my example here. Toughness is big stat to reduce incoming damage so one would think, Toughness = More Survivability. However, for the Thief, since it is so mobile, I have personally found that having a bit more Vitality and focusing on improving it’s mobility even moreso helps it’s survival a lot more than stacking Toughness. That has absolutely nothing to do with how I play but with how various Weapons, Traits, and Utilities work together.

Demonical.1039:

he also said Once people start mastering DS, “He´s afraid of how strong necro´s will be” Thats in our current form,

Correct. He’s saying here that he hasn’t seen anyone play the Necro to it’s full ability just yet. And considering Anet has been playing the game a lot more and a lot longer than the rest of us, his opinion holds some merit. During BWE2 people thought Thief would be useless in TPvP. Then Lowell posted videos of himself as a Thief and Super Squad beating other top reputed teams then suddenly people realized the strength of Thief wasn’t just Glass Cannon bursting. Necros similarly felt they were very underpowered in BWE2 until people started utilizing Condition Specs more heavily. Now Condition Necro is considered one of the only viable specs (when Traits and such aren’t buggy anyhow).

Demonical.1039:

then follows it up with we just need to give it time so us “Average” players learn to play it, Where in that message do you get the message that we arent “fine” according to him after we learn how to play using DS. I didnt get a hint that we were gonna get any fixes like that “Love” they said was coming our way, ( Followed up with a few days later a big nerf to condition builds )

It was in the part that you act as if doesn’t exist where he said “We aren’t ignoring the Necro.” The fact is the game isn’t as straight forward as many others and they haven’t put in Deathmatch PvP modes for a specific reason. The classes aren’t built to support that evenly. Any given class should have one or two DPS roles, one or two Support roles, one or two Defense roles, and a myriad of mixing and matching of those roles if everything is working properly. But all the average player wants is the ability to DPS the other guy faster than he’s DPSing them. He’s saying take the time to learn the nuances and he thinks you’ll find there is more to the class, even as it is right now, than you think.

If you reduce burst and take away points for killing then control and bunker builds will reign supreme. The game will become about just trying to survive long enough on the point for your team to hold it.

The majority (not ALL, just most) of the issues that people have stem from Hot Join PvP. When in TPvP with a group that has been built to play roles and people support each other, the game works beautifully. When in Hot Join, with group compositions being completely random and most people are building for DPS only (not control, not defense, not group support) you get wildly varied results. Even when one or two people are in Support or Defense builds, if the other team is built for Glass Cannon DPS and they focus you, you won’t survive.

It’s similar in PvE Dungeons. When you build a group that is comprised of people who are using pure DPS Traits and Utilities, you’re going to have a hell of a bad time. However when people in the group switch out their soloing Traits/Utilities for ones with more Group synergy, things go much, much smoother.

The way this game is designed, it’s true that the standard Trinity is gone. However that doesn’t mean that Group Synergy is gone. In fact, in this game, Group Synergy is an absolute necessity to perform at the peak of your ability.

He’s not saying L2P. He’s not saying there shouldn’t be adjustments. All he said was that he doesn’t think people have mastered the use of DS yet.. which is fair to say considering the game is less than 30 days old. No one in the general public (not even Team Paradigm, Super Squad, Team Legacy, etc…) has MASTERED PvP yet.

Calm down people.

Karpalo.5148:

People are not reading the original post.

We are talking about one piece that’s needed to craft one legendary weapon and there are others that are needed. If what the op wrote is true that would be all time grindfest. 480 hours to pure grind, or $4000 in minium wage job.

Sounds so absurd that i don’t think that can be correct. Then again it’s possible that they are meant to be crafted as guild efforts, but i find it unlikely that even single one will ever be made then.

The OP was written when the mats for that Legendary were being Theorized. The Original Poster has since posted in the thread and revised that it will cost less Mystic Clovers than originally thought, cutting down the timesink considerably.

However.. if I’m reading the Guru thread correctly.. there has also been further steps discovered since then that will require more time/money that wasn’t originally known at the time of the Original Post.

So.. before the most recent Balance Adjustments.. these threads were all about Thief. Then the Thief was adjusted and now all attention has shifted to Mesmers. Should Mesmers be adjusted.. is there a pool on which class is next after that? Will it be Warriors again? Or perhaps Guardians? All joking aside though, “X class is OP” threads before even 1 month of live gameplay should be shutdown alongside other launch thread gems such as “This game vs. That game” and “OMG I hit max level in 24 hrs and now I have nothing to do!”

Money sink.
Makes it slightly less attractive to have all Professions at once right away.
Makes Legendaries just that much more difficult/costly.

Pineapple Man.1976:

But seriously, all the fanboys going off about this is how it SHOULD be and bashing on people who are still learning is silly. FYI, MMORPG games have always been about PVE and obtaining the best gear possible. Bragging to your friend about getting that super rare drop. Old mmorpg games didn’t “brainwash” you in to thinking that stats were important. The fact is, stats are SUPPOSED to be important in an mmorpg. It is what drives the genre. PvP is an afterthought entirely. And successful games try their best to balance it.

I’d argue that RPG’s are about Player Improvement/Growth. The fact is, the easiest way to showcase that Growth is by increasing Stats. The goal of the game is to complete the quest/campaign. Stats are just a means of improving with which to do so. As it’s been stated before.. the only reason these Stats have been thrown on Gear (rather than just players) and that Gear made time costly to attain is due to the Subscription nature of early MMORPG genre. The general idea is that Subscriptions were necessary in the genre to continue to fund the upkeep of game hardware/software on the Developer’s side of things.

Anet didn’t run with a Subscription based model in GW1 and they still haven’t in GW2 and as such.. there’s no need to place the Highest Stats at the end of a Treadmill. This actually brings this game more in line with other games where you get Patches, Additional Content, and Online Play for the single price of purchasing the game initially (pretty much every PC genre before MMORPGS came along).

So there really is a logical “as it should be” aspect to the way Anet runs things. Yes, MMORPGS have had subscription fees in the past but no one really knows if they had to.

Derps.7421:

How bout this instead of nerfing HS you buff the dmg a decent amount and make it a cooldown. OR you remove the gap closer buff and buff the dmg a little bit that way you have to aim and be near the person to use it. Instead of spamming it and flying across the map at your target.

Neither of these is really feasible. Thief’s mechanic is Resource rather than Cooldown so it would literally be the only CD and not mesh with the rest of the attacks. You could raise Initiative but Ini regen is tricky as it is and it would probably make people switch to Death Blossom only.. which people will hate even more, trust me.

Removing the Gap Closer would put D/D Thief completely in Melee range at all time but Thief is way too soft for that. Increase Thief durability and other builds become too powerful.

Personally I think the dmg reduction was a bit much but threshold change was fine. Meaning it takes longer for the bonus dmg from the trait to kick in. I just don’t think Dmg output should be decreased (for any class) until some time has passed for people to adjust playstyles.

xBeefy.4073:

Jest.9276:

The colored armor sets will make the game much easier to follow for NEW spectators once Anet moves forwards with its plans for E sport.

Why can’t spectator mode ONLY implement this?

I don’t work for Anet, so I couldn’t tell you. Again, All I was doing was offering up the most likely reason it exists. I’m not saying there’s not other ways to do things or whether it’s even necessary.

Zadawn.2471:

Jest.9276:

The colored armor sets will make the game much easier to follow for NEW spectators once Anet moves forwards with its plans for E sport.

Hey bro i remember buying a game not a TV show.

We all bought the game. The fact is SPvP is built around becoming an Esport. I’m not opposed to having our personalized colors show but there is a legitimate reason for the color scheme and no one in the thread acknowledged it, so I did.

I’m not really sure what the spirit behind this is. Glory rank is pretty much just a gateway for aesthetic gear… but you get higher level aesthetic gear from winning tournaments. So is the glory point distribution primarily for earned progress for the teams even when they don’t win?

I know why it’s a concern in SPvP just doesn’t seem like it should be that big of a deal for tournament play.

The colored armor sets will make the game much easier to follow for NEW spectators once Anet moves forwards with its plans for E sport.

Skolops.2604:

I keep coming back to the point that I think the way CC interacts with the dodge mechanic is the biggest problem. While I’d agree, for example, with all of your points about 90% of the way, I can’t say you’re quite correct because all of those ideas rely on not being CCed. Obviously we are going to be CCed at times. However, its currently far too easy to find yourself rooted, snared, or stunned with no way to respond to it.

It’s really an issue of scaling. The offensive skills/cooldowns are, for the most professions, far ahead of any defensive skills/cooldowns when looked at as a whole. In 1 v 1s, everything tends to work great (though a few things could be tweaked). In team fights, its just too easy to kill people with coordinated CC. It’s not even this easy in TOR, a game frequently ridiculed as having excess CC.

I noticed that you’ve made that point in at least one other thread and while I personally don’t think it’s that bad, I also have no desire to argue against it. Your argument is sound with regards to how offensive vs. defensive skills/cd’s measure.

What all these complaints seem to come down to once we as a community sift through the hyperbole is the design intended by Anet which is based around TPvP and it’s effect on Hot Join SPvP. I don’t know that things can actually be adjusted so that one mode doesn’t get the short end of the stick and since Anet seem really vested in pushing TPvP I think people will need to either accept that SPvP is an “arcade mode” of sorts or they’ll just have to not SPvP and focus on TPvP instead.

Skolops.2604:

1) In a team fight, you need to dodge many things. Using them only for hard hitting attacks, you’re likely to run out.

This is correct. However in a team fight, each team should be Focusing dmg on 1 player. If there is a HS Thief, he should be first priority since he dies quickly and puts out burst DPS. If your team didn’t focus or didn’t target him first, whoever he kills deserves to die because of bad teamplay on your side.

Skolops.2604:

3) This is demonstrably false. I know the Ranger best so I’ll just use them as an example, but I’m certain that it is not the only example which contradicts your claim. They have only 2 CC breaks, not 3. Moreover, its not only quickness you need to dodge. The 17k/3 second warrior rifle burst build I’ve brought up in a few threads has no quickness but enough immobilize to make you eat the whole burst. 100 Blades or heartseeker or any other big hitter hurt badly enough without quickness to warrant dodging, etc.

All of this is true. However you should be playing towards these players weaknesses. If it’s a Ranged Attack.. LoS! If it’s a HS Thief, Hinder/Root/Etc and create some space for yourself (even if you’re Melee). These fights aren’t Rock Em Sock Em robots. You’re not supposed to just stand in front of each other hitting buttons until the first one blows up. We all know that every situation is different but if you’re constantly in a bad situation against certain builds then you must first look at your own gameplay and see if there’s something wrong. Nobody is even attempting to do that in these threads.

Skolops.2604:

4) I don’t believe that in a 2 v 1, the 2 should always win. Most of the time, probably yes they should. However, part of what makes games more interesting is not knowing the outcome. If a game were designed such that 100% of the time, X players always loses to X+1 or more player, it would be a pretty boring game, either to watch or play. It would just be about making sure you show up with a numbers advantage to each fight and then what little drama there was would be over.

That said, even if I grant that 2 players should always beat 1 player, that doesn’t mean that the speed and ease with which they can do it in this game right now is good. When I’ve played other games, whether I was playing a tank or a squishy DPS, I could always at least hold out against 2 or 3 people for at least some period of time while hoping for backup. In this game, when 2 competent players show up against 1 they can stunlock/rootlock and kill him almost instantly. It’s just not interesting or fun, and it doesn’t lend itself to trying to any kind of smart or long range strategic play on the PvP maps, but encourages zerging and other least common denominator styles of play.

I have to say that performance when outnumbered relies a few different things. Your Spec, Your Runes, Jewels, and your actual decision making and gameplay all play a part in this. If you’re loading up your stats for DPS and not survivability you better bekittenagile because a Glass Cannon will eat you up. If you’re state and spec is for survivability you will still need to make sure you’re not burning defensive cd’s like crazy because 2 players with the right skill setups will still eat through you.

These classes haven’t had crazy sweeping changes since the last BWE yet the complaints are way crazier than anything I saw then.

People in these OP/UP threads should definitely be sure to check this post.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Balancing-GW2/first#post92064

Thedenofsin.7340:

I think this is a fine idea. However, speaking from experience with this very problem in Rift, you need to implement this change while being very cognizant of the problem of premades vs pugs. A premade team simply steamrolls s pug team, every time. I implore you to create a solution which truly balances the match instead of simply throwing more pug players against the onslaught of a premade team.

The server randomly mixes teams up between each map in SPvP. The only time it doesn’t is in Tournaments, which are Premade vs. Premade.

Im Too Godlike.5629:

JonPeters.5630:

milo.6942:

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

Great suggestion. Promise I’m not just saying that because we’re already working on it.

Jon

Sorry but there is a problem with that that i hope you guys over at anet have considered. If people leave a game and create unbalance, its usually because they are losing (probably getting creamed). If this is implemented, then when they press Play Now they will always be put into a game where they are losing and have no chance of winning. People will quickly get tired of being dominated and they will eventually all turn to selecting servers manually, and the only people left to press play now are very nooby players, who, lets face it, wont help that team on the losing side win.

I disagree. While filling the team with lesser players will be more likely to put new players on a losing team, the point is to fill the room so the game can come to completion. Upon the completion of a game the Server will still randomly mix up the teams for the next game, so just because you’ve joined a team in the progress of losing a match it doesn’t mean the team is destined to lose the next match.

This change would vastly improve the issue of a player doing well the entire match getting penalized because people left early and shouldn’t lead to players abandoning the Play Now button at all.

Krustydog.1043:

So as a business do you cater to the tons or the leet few? There in is the million dollar question. Just get rid of any classes ability to destroy another in a few seconds and I tell you the truth it will make a whole lotta people happy. As is now earth eli roots thief hits 2 pistol whips and thats it. Its actually 1 class doing all that damage. Fights are getting shorter and shorter as people figure out the jibb combos. In beta fights lasted longer and it was a lot more fun.

As a business, you cater to the people who are still playing your game 3 months after release.

The fact of the matter is that the average MMO player buys a new game at launch, plays for a month and then moves on to a new game or back to an old one that had previously played long term (usually happens to be their first MMO as well). Everytime a company has rushed nerfs out the door in the first month the still lose the 30 day playerbase but have now also made another portion of their long term playerbase unstable.

Adjustments to classes are usually needed. However if the game is to have longevity, these adjustments need to be approached slowly and carefully. Blindly listening to the kneejerk reaction of people who have played the game for less than 30 days (a lot of which are simply riding the popularity wave and have done very little actual research into the design intent and goals of the game) is always a bad decision.

The best course of action? Acknowledge that you hear what people are complaining about and that you’re looking into it. Then they should look at the numbers on their own end of things over a good period of time (more than 30 days imo) and determine if those numbers are inline with design intent or not. If not inline, then look for ways to adjust.

Overlord.2091:

Any one notice that the recent QQ threads are:

Plx nerf thieves and <insert any other class>? Everyone pretty much agrees on thieves, well except bad thieves.

The most common defense for an OP class is “game isn’t designed for 1v1s” and “L2P”. L2P is kinda funny, with thieves its: “if you use your class to its optimal potential and learn to dodge you have a chance against my 1-2 button mashing skilless play style.”

By far the most common thing in MMO’s upon release is a ton of players who understand very little about classes jumping on one or two classes demanding nerfs. Then when those are nerfed, they start complaining about different classes that were apparently fine before but now are magically out of balance.

The end result is either the nerfs screw the game up and people leave end masse or the devs have to constantly rotate the fotm classes so everyone gets a chance in the sun.

The best thing to do is wait until the playerbase figures the game out before making changes.

It may be a bit early to say for sure that they aren’t on PvE side. Could be available through discovery or a possible MF combination for the recipe.

It would also be nice for people in these threads to stop talking about topping the score chart as if it represents a lot of kills. I do far better on the score chart by running around flipping nodes than I do by getting kills.

I meant the XP from Making it vs. The XP from from making the individual pieces. Discovery was never what I was referring to.

Also, you do need to Discover or Buy the Chest Piece for any given set to get the Recipe.

And to get the Recipe, the exact amount of materials required changes depending on the level of the set you’re creating.. but generally it’s Chest Piece from the Set, Elonian Wine, Mystic Coins, and a forth reagent that costs SP (name escapes me at the moment). Put the right amount into the Mystic Forge and it produces the Recipe for the Satchel.

Arheundel.6451:

Highvoltage.7946:

thieves aren’t that hard to counter and end their burst, just gotta learn their abilitites is all. not as op as everyone thinks

NOOOO?! Really?

I guess you can see a pistol whip coming when fighting somebody else or there is something like this :

" Fight 1 – Highvoltage VS Thief – 3 / 2 /1 – FIGHT! " ( Street Fighter music in the background…..)"..

Sorry dude sPvP or tPvP don’t work like this…a thief won’t walk up to you with an invitation to a fight..

If you get jumped by any class while you’re fighting someone else, you’re going to die. The game is balanced around teamwork, not 1v1.

serpentu.4591:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

The intent was for the satchels to require the same amount of materials as crafting the individual pieces. I’m not sure where this got broken for these, but I’ll take a look at it.

Actually i’m not sure that making the satchel’s component cost the same as all individual pieces’s component cost would make getting a satchel worth it either.

The cost of getting the satchel recipe is very significant, so much so that the only reason i’d ever want to get a satchel recipe is if crafting armor from it actually cost less, noticeably less, than crafting each individual piece.

Consider it a sort of “investment” that should reduce the cost of mass producing armor boxes of that specific type, that would make sense imho.

Interestingly enough, the cost (or effort rather) of getting the recipe used to be significantly lower if the database sites recipes are to be believed. That being said, I’m still not sure the Satchel itself would be worthwhile with the ingredients being equal. Unless making the satchel offers more player XP. Enough that choosing to make Satchel ends up being better for the player in terms of gaining SP at a noticeably faster rate than making them individually.

Malakree.5912:

Again your sort of missing my point. The problem with HB is that it forces people to have specific tools not only on their bar but available to them at all times in order to deal with the warrior. Imagine that when you ran at a necromancer he pushed his 4 key and it then checked whether you have a condition removal skill available, if you do he dies if you don’t you die. It just makes the combat so meaningless as neither player is having a proper input into the game and it’s not dependent on the skill of the players.

I really don’t see the game breaking down to this level anywhere but certain pick up games in SPvP. The balance was built around teamwork and objective gameplay. If the pick up game you’re in is comprised of players trying to primarily play it as a DM and no one is supporting each other then you’re going to have lopsided games where glass cannons do well. This is a playerbase issue though and only prevalent in pug games of SPvP. If they were to make changes to these specs, it hinders the available builds to the classes and in the case of the Thief, lessens it’s viability as a whole.

Malakree.5912:

As to the thief thing. It’s not the fact they ARE controlling the pace of the fight, this as a thief isn’t actually outplaying since there is no other class which can stop you from controlling it. I’m struggling to explain this since you obviously don’t really play that much as anything other than a thief but if the thief isn’t braindead he SHOULD have control of the fight. The play off of skill is then how the thief plays while in control of the fight against how his opponent plays defensively and ceases what opportunities arise.

The issue is that a well built thief basically wins the fight for free ONCE they are in control of it. It’s like playing a game against someone where you lose if the other person sees you touching your face then the first main rule of the game is that you start with your hands on your face , the game itself provides an auto-win for your opponent unless they are blind or stupid.

Ironically this is exactly how balanced PvP shouldn’t occur. It’s like having a game of chess where the person who loses the first piece loses the game, it leads to quite a silly and quite a boring game. A true skill based game is one where each player strives to get little advantages and snowball them into the win, go view some games of professional dota for a beautiful example of this.

I have to disagree. I don’t think it’s as simple at all as who makes the first move but rather who makes the right or wrong move at the right time(and the end result only decides who dies.. not who wins the game). I also feel like you’re comparing two different aspects. Living and Dying in a 1v1 faced paced MMO vs Winning and Losing an entire game in a slower MOBA.

I think your complaints and suggestions are fairly reasonable here. Certainly far more reasonable than most of suggestions I’ve seen thus far. The real key though is exactly how much would be changed. How much more telegraphed the Moa is, how much longer the debuff on Stealth is, etc..

Good post though.

Greed.1702:

I am not sure what your experience of Tournament PvP is, but in the situation of a 1v1 due to the fact that you are a point holder and a roamer (Thief) engages on you to attempt to take the point, a death matters significantly. The speed of which the offensive player is able to take down the defensive also matters since most Gladiator + ranked teams respond quickly to calls for help. A heart seeker thief, in all honesty, is not that over powered. After going through the horrible experience of playing against Death Blossom thieves at high level tpvp, it really outshines the hs build.

I agree with your post here to an extent. However, if a single player holding a point is having trouble with a HS Thief killing them then a different tactic should be applied. At that stage, the Defender should be focused only on kiting until help arrives. Even if they have to leave the point to stall for backup. 1 player shouldn’t be able to flip a point before help arrives.

DB Thieves are definitely a whole different ball game though and I completely agree with you there. When used correctly, they’re much more of a threat.

Malakree.5912:

The problem I have with HB warriors is that it’s skill less, they charge you and hope that your stunbreakers are down, if they are they score a kill if not they womble about being confused.

I haven’t played a Warrior but I’m pretty sure that there’s much more to playing the class well than just hoping for HB to hit. If all they’re focused on is trying to land an HB and they happen to land it on you and you die, you should blame yourself for getting killed by a 1 trick pony. Again, if they jump you while you’re engaged with someone else and land it, that’s not your fault, but you would have likely died anyhow being caught off guard.

Malakree.5912:

The problem with a HS thief is that you CAN’T fight them straight up. A good thief controls the pace of the fight not you, this makes countering them very hard since he decides when the and how the specific bouts of fighting will occur. This means that 1) they can spec full into burst damage with 0 survivability and not suffer for it and 2) you can’t ever properly punish them, if they get in a bad spot they begin using stealths and take a reset in order to bring it back under control.

If a good Thief is controlling the pace and making you fight on their terms then they’re just out playing you. HS or not. Keep playing PvP and keep trying to figure out how to change that. That should be the goal of all balanced PvP. It should not be a situation where you have to have a hard counter to a class. It should not be just hit X skills in order and kill Y class nearly every time.

I’d also argue that going full Survivability does make a Thief suffer and suffer badly if they make a mistake. Thief dies incredibly fast as a Glass Cannon build. Make them make a mistake and you win. That’s the key to beating them.

Stealths themselves last 3-5 seconds max and have a CD between uses. AoE’s hit through stealth and any projectiles activated (not just fired.. but activated) before Stealth still hit the Thief. Stealth does not Reset the fight for a Glass Cannon Thief.

Malakree.5912:

It’s actually 2 separate issues, the first is that the spec requires zero skill and the second is that the spec is to good when the player is skilled.

I can’t say that it requires zero skill just as I can’t say HB requires zero skill. Both attacks require very specific conditions to be met to be used successfully. When facing those builds you need to do everything you can to prevent those conditions from being met. If you succeed, you win the fight. If you fail, you lose the fight. It’s pretty straight forward.

Whether you agree with my reply thus far or not, the point of SPvP and TPvP is to win the objective and focusing on Killing primarily (as glass cannons do) should not win the game. Unless your whole team is having absolutely no success getting to capture points because they’re dieing to the opposing team, in which case.. the opponents builds aren’t likely to be the problem.

It seems to me that the primary issue people have here is that they want to fight a HS Thief straight up, the way they fight other classes and that’s just not a good idea. Both HB for Warrior and HS for Thief can be avoided and countered IF you change your tactics to fit the situation.

And of course that’s not going to work everytime. If you’re fighting another player and a HS Thief jumps you, you’re going to die.. but that would likely happen no matter what class was the one that jumped you. If you see a Thief, you should be CCing prior to any straight DPS because that’s the best way to hinder HS spam. Same with Warriors planning to use HB. If you see the wind up, get the heck out of there.

If you don’t want to have to change your tactics depending on the class you’re fighting then what’s the point of even having different classes? May as well just be Rock Em Sock Em Robots.

I understand that people hate dieing but since there’s no Arena (DM) style PvP, a death in the short run shouldn’t be a big deal. Play the objectives and stick with your team and even if you die, your team should be able to win (obviously there are more factors than this, but you get the point).

And yes I do play a Thief, but I play a Condition Thief that doesn’t use D/D. I don’t even use Dagger as my Main hand weapon.