Guild Wars 2

TheGrimm.5624:

Laraley.7695:

Well, you were the one saying you’ve had lots and lots games when no one was fighting anyone but capping points rather in conquest. This only happens when you do hotjoin or your MMR is extremely low. Maybe you should try to change your strategy, then you’ll win a few games and be fighting better people who will engage in the game, too.

Also, your objective is to have most points, but since both teams have to compete for those points, you’ll likely meet a player during those games once your improve your MMR!

Yawn. So you can’t prove your point so you turn to the insult card? Quality arguments. Just don’t queue for Stronghold and you will be happier since you obviously can not deal with change and aren’t willing to provide constructive discussion on it. Conversation over.

Haha, I’ve provided feedback. Also, I would like to not queue for it, but there will be no sepearate queue :/

And I’m sorry, but if you tell me you’ve had plenty of games when no one was fighting anyone, this does only happen in hotjoin and if you have low MMR. If that insulted you, okay. But you were the one saying this happens to you a lot. I haven’t had this once I stepped my feet out of hotjoin.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Why has hardly anyone made any legitimate counter play suggestions? Currently the best way to “actively” counter a thief in stealth is to have good game sense and to have some knowledge of the thief you are fighting and when they are going to open on you.

The reveal on dodge/blind/etc for stealth attacks is fine, but it seems half-baked. Adding something like if they hit a player while blocking a silhouette of the thief is revealed momentarily so the person knows they are there. Because all you really want is to know if they were behind you, or on the left, right, or whatever. I guess it could work for blinds and dodges also, but revealing the thief entirely is leaving them exposed with no way out (depends on weapons) giving the player knowledge of their placement is more than enough to punish them for a mistake.

This is more active counterplay because instead of the thief just plainly be revealed, the player blocking/dodging/etc has to capitalize on them being slightly exposed for a brief period in time. Oh and one more thing I actually play a thief, but it annoys me how there is little to no counter play to a thiefs mobility and stealth openings.

Interrupt his HS through BP. There, thief is screwed.

Reveal on a person who is blocking or invulnerable wouldn’t change much. Thief does it because he can. If they actually change it, thief will just retreat and come back when it’s gone.

And it’s far from truth that thief dies when he decides. Thief is the class that usually dies the most in all tournaments. And random AoE is not my issue, it happens and you also cannot predict being randomly hit by procs. Stealth makes you untargetable but there are plenty of skills that doesn’t need a target. Try to use shadow refuge and not think about carefuly where, it’s basically asking for getting all the AoE on you.

Lol @ these replies.

I guess people are kinda phlegmatic at this point, lol.

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Your math is wrong here, if 100%of your damage comes from air it’s 5% therefore it is abismally low through the lenses of mathematics.

What? If 100% of your damage came from air, it would be 10% dmg modifier. Seeing as fresh air spends and therefore does damage in other attunements, I estimated reastically it could be around 3-5% of damage increase. Also, you were the one who suggested this trait.

A 10% chance to gain a critical damage bonus ( assuming your crit damage is at 200%) is actually a 5% gain.

And I know I suggested it, you and dadnir both appear to believe it is too strong or a bad choice.

Sigh. Without 10% crit
Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage – 1 ) )
AD = BD * (1 + 0,50 * (2-1))
AD = BD * 1,50 > Average damage output higher 50% higher than base.
With 10% higher crit chance
AD = BD * (1 + 0,60 * (2-1))
AD = BD * 1.,60 > Average damage output 60% higher than base.

60-50 = 10 > 10% damage increase

(Data from 26006 fresh air build)

No, I said I don’t like the trait and would rather if they came up with something else.

Ok I will change this for you. May my suggestion appease your endless posting.

Edit: you have any suggestions for a balanced and theme fitting trait ?

Edit 2: also your comparing the gain from base not from 1.5

I believe your math should be .1/1.5 = 1/15

1 = x
15=100
X = 6.666

If roughly 50% of your damage occurs in air this is a 3.333% damage gain relative to not having this trait.
Therefore it’s basically the same as btth and my comment on OwA being considered better by phantaram is still relevant for the concerns of dadnir.
This is how damage mods are compared btw, they are not comparative to the base but your avg damage w/o that damage modifier.

No, it’s not. 1.5* base damage means it’s 50% more damage on average than base, this would happen without the trait. If you consider the trait, it would be 60% more damage, it’s pretty simple. Base damage itself is not affected by critical chance. If 50% of your damage camre from air, it would be 5% damage increase.

Base damage * 1,5 and Base damage * 1,6 IS comparing the gain from the trait.

One with air is rather a utility trait that lets you kite, nothing to do with damage. If you take Bolt to the heart, you’re pushing for more damage.

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Silhouette.5631:

Stealth needs more counter play, and it is being given more counter play. But unfortunately instead of the basic stealth system being given soft counters (like CCing people outa stealth) they are giving classes individual hard counters….like guardians getting The Hammer of Dawn. Seriously we did not need that thing. give counter play to stealth, rebalance theif, all will be happy

Thief is fine as it is. Rebalance the rest.
You want counter vs Stealth? Fine, give thieves (or any other stealth users) counter to blocks. Block has just as many ‘counters’ stealth has.

Not really, thief in stealth can still die to aoe and procs, while a class with invuln is safe for the period of time.

That would be 3-4s every 50-60s..a fair comparison to stealth which can be accessed for 1/5 of the time requirement, on top of this invulnerability does not drop target on you, everybody dies from aoe.

With stealth you have the chance to avoid the dmg, without stealth you must facetank the dmg.

You know the main difference between an ele and a thief?

The first will be priority target[ just watch ESL/WTS matches or just play normal tpvp pug match]; the latter will be the least one to be called as target…..’cause everybody knows how slippery thief is.

I play ele…I have a thief attached to my back, a ranger pew pew with no mercy, an engy trying to perma chill/lock me down along side a med guardian, basically I spent 3/4 of the match dealing with perma immobilize/chill and huge spike dmg

Tried thief s/d for few matches before..nobody even tried to target me and I was kittening terrible, I was randomly dodging and only died after “countless” mistakes.

The thief dies when he decides to die, a luxury that other professions do not possess, a luxury I have no interest in taking away but that cannot be ignored nevertheless

Well, seeing as your experience on thief is minimal, I don’t think you should be the person who decides what happens with the class. Also, you played s/d thief, that’s your problem. With so much vigor and countless evades, s/d thief can survive way more than the most common d/p thief. Yet, it’s not meta. Do you know why? Because among other resons it sacrifices damage for evades and survival, that’s not what teams want. And you cannot really compare this. Any decent thief on opposite team will be on your back if you’re on thief at all times. D/P thief is actually even squishier than fresh air due to not having as much condi removal, invuln, deflects/reflects. It can disengage better, yes but as a melee spec it has a harder time in an actual team fight.

Everybody dies to aoe, except a fresh air ele with obsidian flesh, mesmer having blurred frenzy all the time and distortion…Stealth is not some super mechanisms that will protect you from damage. Go and play thief more, I’m sure you’ll be talking differently after getting hit by random AA’s, necro kitten and fire procs while you’re in stealth.

Terrorsquad.2349:

Silhouette.5631:

Stealth needs more counter play, and it is being given more counter play. But unfortunately instead of the basic stealth system being given soft counters (like CCing people outa stealth) they are giving classes individual hard counters….like guardians getting The Hammer of Dawn. Seriously we did not need that thing. give counter play to stealth, rebalance theif, all will be happy

Thief is fine as it is. Rebalance the rest.
You want counter vs Stealth? Fine, give thieves (or any other stealth users) counter to blocks. Block has just as many ‘counters’ stealth has.

Not really, thief in stealth can still die to aoe and procs, while a class with invuln is safe for the period of time.

sirrrock.7940:

Hmm, that wouldnt be to bad, as long as there would be another trait to make it share with allies. Otherwise our support in a team would be lost big time

That would be bad, because eles would be forced into Arcana again. And I assume they kept the trait that shares is with allies as GM one. So basically that would solve nothing.

sirrrock.7940:

`Im glad they changed their minds, but the main problem with ele is boons and healing has always been the main thing to help ele survive which is why people have been forced into the arcana and water traitline with every successful build.
I believe the best way to fix this would be to make elemental attunement a baseline attun swap bonus, but make it so the boons are only given to the ele, not allies. Then keep the elemental attunement trait as a master trait, and make it give those same boons to allies as well so some support builds would still be encouraged to use it.

Though if this does happen I think the healing from evasive arcana and healing ripple should be nerfed a bit. Aside from how pidgeon holed eles build diversity is the amount of sustain ele has now is a bit crazy for a light armor class

The problem is you would also be nerfing the supportive side of ele, this is really not the solution. Besides, I don’t think that after the trait change ele will be super tanky seeing as mesmer and thief got insane buffs that will help their damage a lot. Ele has to trait everything for support and survival to be sort of viable and it’s really difficult to see a way from there. I’m afraid they just put EA as a minor selfish trait but added a new one that will make it aoe as a GM trait. That’s just from horrible to bad.

The current state of ele is pretty sad, lots of the traits need a complete revamp, scepter needs changes, lots of utilites, too. They have to change a lot to stop forcing players into the same traits and skills. One option would be to make tempest power based and actually good, so elementalist has some choice.

So, I had a break from gw2 to come back today and play some ranked games. Out of roughly 7 games, I’ve had:

One 2v5 (essentially 4v5, but 2 people were afk for 80% of the game)
Two 4v5
Premade vs solo in half of the game
As a pug team facing a top team (assuming 3 member + 2 others)
Many blowout games

After these 7 games, I was pretty upset because this was far from being fun and thought how can a new player want to get into pvp and actually learn the game and be better after having a similar experience to me?

There are things that needs to be fixed asap really:
1. Punishing for leaving/afking. I cannot stress enough how important this is. It enourages people to just leave or not play once their team gets a bit behind. On the other hand, sometimes I don’t blame people for afking, since the matchmaking is horrible. Instead of dishonor, introduce deserter. You leave a game > 30 minutes without pvp. You leave another > 45 minutes…etc.
2. Fix this kitten matchmaking. How is it even possible a full pug team can face semi premade team that consists of players who appear in tournies/go to WTS? And I’m pretty sure one or two of those players were fairly new to the game.
3. Stop allowing premades vs pugs. This is just ridiculous, almost every single game I face premade when I’m solo or I face pugs when I’m in a party.
4. Let people do something between queues. Either let us queue from open world or adjust HOTM, so you don’t have to just sit and wait for a 10 minute queue pop.
5. Don’t have such a long time between seasons and/or make sure that there is a difference between unranked/ranked. The last season ended almost a month ago, now unranked and ranked are basically the same, only unranked has the bad maps. I can tell the difference in the quality of matches between playing in season/off season.
6. Balance your game. Remember when you said you’re going to nerf the necro downstate damage? It’s been ages ago since this got broken. I’m really getting tired of getting one shot from all the procs and and ridiculous damage. There is no reason we should wait half a year for this fix. Any fix. Immob mid air, balance, bugs, exploits…
7. Get rid of air/fire finally. You want more people to play your game? Well, then make it not based on procs. I wouldn’t expect a large amount of new players when this is still around.
8. Make it worth getting better. There should be some learning curve, not that you keep getting random matches that are neither fun or challenging. Possibly some decent rewards, too.

I do think gw2 has a potential, but at this current state it’s rather frustrating to play it. I don’t think preparing an xpack should be a reason not to update the game at all. We shouldn’t have to wait months or years for balance patches, don’t make the game stay stale. I took a break and coming back to this makes me realize why I left in the first place, I still care about the game, but come on this is getting out of hand.

sirrrock.7940:

Ah ok thats good to hear. I’ll post what i said in that thread though because I still do think a selfish version of it should be baseline so ele isnt still pidgeon holed

Imo, it’s going to be a selfish EA as a minor.

Flumek.9043:

Xcorpdog.2840:

Sunshine.5014:

Chill needs to slow initiative regen.

It’s a bug, and it should be fixed.

It’s not a bug, it effected it in the early betas, thieves got completely destroyed by it with no counter play so they removed the effect.

Hmm,
main necro, usually power, and recently i even played with a 3rd chill – the spectral pull – in amateur tournies.

mark#3, ds#2, spectral pull = 3x chills , i even run 4th focus sometimes but no comment on that. Based on my rather not publicly announced playtime and various necro vs thief encounter – i would REALISTICALY say

• 1st chill – cleared by uninteruptable heal Withdraw
• 2nd chill – random blind/dodge/LoS
• 3rd chill – hit , just question if its covered AND if im still alive

• 4th chil – Spinal trait proc – hmm this one probably lasts full 5s , till he either drops or heal off CD again.

….
So in total
….
in a 30s fight, even though i have around 70-100++% chill uptime with just 2-3 skills
….
the total chilled and slowed initiative regen time would be around 5-10s.

idk,
but we all know the preview specializations for thief are BULLCAT OP CZ SHADOW ARTS,
so it could be a new counterplay.
Still prefer shadow arts nerfed or just deleted

Lol, power necro complaining when all it takes is pressing one in downstate. Dead.

sirrrock.7940:

I do also agree that anet is making a huge mistake making elemental attunement a gm trait. As someone stated earlier, boons and healing has always been the main thing to help ele survive which is why people have been forced into the arcana and water traitline with every successful build. There is no other class in the game that needs to trait as defensive as ele does in order to survive. I believe the best way to fix this would be to make elemental attunement a baseline attun swap bonus, but make it so the boons are only given to the ele, not allies. Then keep the elemental attunement trait as a master trait, and make it give those same boons to allies as well so some support builds would still be encouraged to use it

Maybe check other threads, they changed their mind.

Zefrost.3425:

Being able to spam backstab until it hits through a block, a dodge and a blind is no different than if a warrior could spam eviscerate until it successfully hits you.

Why is it ok for thieves to spam backstab? Why don’t we let warriors spam eviscerate then. That would be balanced.

Yes, comparing a skill that’s only available when you’re in stealth and a skill that’s avialable at all times seems like a strong argument.

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

I wouldn’t actually mind having no CD (in practice 1 sec) on attunements even during a fight, it’s not really different from kits as long as there is ICD on all attunement swap procs.

This would be a horrific idea in terms of balance, it makes it harder to predict when you use the swap traits, removes freshair entirely ( this is currently the only non tank spec that is remotely viable on an ele ), and gives elementalists availability to any of their extremely powerful abilities at any time ( providing they aren’t on cd). It also removes all the flavor of playing an elementalist over other classes like engineer. As a mid – higher tier spvp player I strongly recommend that your idea is not added.

@OP mabye if you added a phrase to elemental attunement like when in combat.. but that would weaken elementalists out of combat mobility and adding a cd weakens freshair specs access to swiftness which is important to a glass light armor build with few escape utlities.

Ele is balanced around having long cooldowns unlike engi, yet they have almost as much skills as ele. I don’t see it as an issue elementalist would have an access to a 50 second cooldown at any given time assuing it’s off cd. Being less predictable and based on roations would actually be good for ele and it would also improve the gameplay as you wouldn’t be able to spam attunements on cooldown, but rather keep track of them. It wouldn’t remove fresh air, it would just take a bit more thinking to play the spec, it would probably also allow a better counterplay to the spec. They would have to add a icon or something to let you know when your fresh air is offcooldown, making it be less ‘’instant kitten’’. Seeing as ele has issues with survability, allowing them to manage cooldowns better would be one way how to help this and not force everyone into the same trait lines.

Fresh air is the trait that recharges air attunement on hit. And elementalists abilities are balanced far differently from engineer abilities. This is why and elementalist has a fairly even time in a 1v1 against and engi.

Yes, which revolves around damage from attuning to air, they could simply put some ICD on it and you could still play it. For the record, I never said I think they would ever decide to go this way. Just that I think it could help open a diversity of builds for ele and it wouldn’t impossible to balance.

And this game is not balanced around 1v1’s.

Yes and ele also has more team support than engi, how fair.

How could you have more support when you actually trait for damage? Ele goes full in support lines.

Engi doesn’t have competitively viable support because other classes do it better. when your support build is also strong enough that it can win most 1v1s and is still considered a support build? Seems more like a support and 1v1 spec with the only drawback being how fast you can kill foes, not your 1v1 capabilities to get powerful team support its not really specifying into pure support is it? It’s specifying into self sustainability. I have already given my suggestions on how to deal with the boon circus meta.

And ele doesn’t have competitively viable power build because other classes do it better.

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Your math is wrong here, if 100%of your damage comes from air it’s 5% therefore it is abismally low through the lenses of mathematics.

What? If 100% of your damage came from air, it would be 10% dmg modifier. Seeing as fresh air spends and therefore does damage in other attunements, I estimated reastically it could be around 3-5% of damage increase. Also, you were the one who suggested this trait.

A 10% chance to gain a critical damage bonus ( assuming your crit damage is at 200%) is actually a 5% gain.

And I know I suggested it, you and dadnir both appear to believe it is too strong or a bad choice.

Sigh. Without 10% crit
Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage – 1 ) )
AD = BD * (1 + 0,50 * (2-1))
AD = BD * 1,50 > Average damage output higher 50% higher than base.
With 10% higher crit chance
AD = BD * (1 + 0,60 * (2-1))
AD = BD * 1.,60 > Average damage output 60% higher than base.

60-50 = 10 > 10% damage increase

(Data from 26006 fresh air build)

No, I said I don’t like the trait and would rather if they came up with something else.

Terrorsquad.2349:

Laraley.7695:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Laraley.7695:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

I think the “1vs1” and “cele” cards have been played for long enough now.

NO ,a fresh air build does not beat a thief of equal skill in a 1vs1 scenario, as matter of fact at equal level of skill, a fresh air lose to everything in 1vs1. In this 1vs1 scenario you assume that the ele has all CD ready, which never happen outside the duel servers. But stop just with the talk, bring a video of you playing fresh air ele at a “no-hotjoin” level, because apparently every other ele out there is bad and need to l2p

NO, fresh air was unviable way before cele was buffed, when it was the last time a team with a fresh air in it, won a major tournament?

This is not true at all, fresh air doesn’t lose to everyone in 1v1 at equal skill level.

DISCLAIMER When talking about 1vs1 I always refer to tPvP and not the duellist server, with rules, bow, wait time for you to recover CD…that’s not 1vs1 worth anybody time because of its unrealistic settings.

The only 1vs1 that count are the ones happening at any given time during a tPvP match

The only way thief can ‘reliably’ kill a fresh air is due steal + panic strike proc, nothing more, nothing less.

And Fresh Air eles can win 1v1 in tpvp matches too, you know.. And since we’re talking about this realistically: what good thief would waste his refuge + heal + rune proc + steal for just 1 fresh Air ele in a 1v1? (in a match)

As I don’t agree with the fact that fresh air cannot win any duels (And I’m not talking about a dueling server), I also don’t agree fresh air has an easy time with a thief. It is true that once you’re out of cooldowns it gets harder, but you beat a thief as long as it’s dp. You stand basically no chance against s/d thief. Assuming it’s a ps thief, it’s not really so much about wasting SR since you can easily recharge it with Improvisation. A duel between a thief and fresh air is basically a war ‘’who procs first’’.

I agree with S/D having an easier time.

D/P (even Panic Strike) has a hard time vs fresh Air. Although improvisation is a random proc. It does NOT return cd of a skill you want. If u used refuge and use steal, its not 100% guarantee refuge will be back up. Everyone seems to think it does, but it does NOT. It’s a RNG trait aswel.

Sometimes when Shadowstep and Refuge are used (both deception kind) and Steal after, improvisation does not always give you back the Deception utlities, but the Signet or Venom. Basically, Improvisation is a 25% chance (if not lower when counting utilitiy kinds u do NOT use) to give you back refuge and shadowstep.

I tested this myself

I know that, but you have the option of actually managing your cooldowns and get the proc on SR instead of something else.

How so? Even if SR is the only used utility in your bar, it doesnt guarantee you giving you SR back with improvisation, though. Sometimes Improvisation gives you nothing.

Nvm, my bad. I assumed when only one skill type is on cooldown, it’ll recharge that one.

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Your math is wrong here, if 100%of your damage comes from air it’s 5% therefore it is abismally low through the lenses of mathematics.

What? If 100% of your damage came from air, it would be 10% dmg modifier. Seeing as fresh air spends and therefore does damage in other attunements, I estimated reastically it could be around 3-5% of damage increase. Also, you were the one who suggested this trait.

Terrorsquad.2349:

Laraley.7695:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

I think the “1vs1” and “cele” cards have been played for long enough now.

NO ,a fresh air build does not beat a thief of equal skill in a 1vs1 scenario, as matter of fact at equal level of skill, a fresh air lose to everything in 1vs1. In this 1vs1 scenario you assume that the ele has all CD ready, which never happen outside the duel servers. But stop just with the talk, bring a video of you playing fresh air ele at a “no-hotjoin” level, because apparently every other ele out there is bad and need to l2p

NO, fresh air was unviable way before cele was buffed, when it was the last time a team with a fresh air in it, won a major tournament?

This is not true at all, fresh air doesn’t lose to everyone in 1v1 at equal skill level.

DISCLAIMER When talking about 1vs1 I always refer to tPvP and not the duellist server, with rules, bow, wait time for you to recover CD…that’s not 1vs1 worth anybody time because of its unrealistic settings.

The only 1vs1 that count are the ones happening at any given time during a tPvP match

The only way thief can ‘reliably’ kill a fresh air is due steal + panic strike proc, nothing more, nothing less.

And Fresh Air eles can win 1v1 in tpvp matches too, you know.. And since we’re talking about this realistically: what good thief would waste his refuge + heal + rune proc + steal for just 1 fresh Air ele in a 1v1? (in a match)

As I don’t agree with the fact that fresh air cannot win any duels (And I’m not talking about a dueling server), I also don’t agree fresh air has an easy time with a thief. It is true that once you’re out of cooldowns it gets harder, but you beat a thief as long as it’s dp. You stand basically no chance against s/d thief. Assuming it’s a ps thief, it’s not really so much about wasting SR since you can easily recharge it with Improvisation. A duel between a thief and fresh air is basically a war ‘’who procs first’’.

I agree with S/D having an easier time.

D/P (even Panic Strike) has a hard time vs fresh Air. Although improvisation is a random proc. It does NOT return cd of a skill you want. If u used refuge and use steal, its not 100% guarantee refuge will be back up. Everyone seems to think it does, but it does NOT. It’s a RNG trait aswel.

Sometimes when Shadowstep and Refuge are used (both deception kind) and Steal after, improvisation does not always give you back the Deception utlities, but the Signet or Venom. Basically, Improvisation is a 25% chance (if not lower when counting utilitiy kinds u do NOT use) to give you back refuge and shadowstep.

I tested this myself

I know that, but you have the option of actually managing your cooldowns and get the proc on SR instead of something else.

Chill needs not to affect attunement swap cooldown.

It’s a bug and it should be fixed.

Terrorsquad.2349:

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

I think the “1vs1” and “cele” cards have been played for long enough now.

NO ,a fresh air build does not beat a thief of equal skill in a 1vs1 scenario, as matter of fact at equal level of skill, a fresh air lose to everything in 1vs1. In this 1vs1 scenario you assume that the ele has all CD ready, which never happen outside the duel servers. But stop just with the talk, bring a video of you playing fresh air ele at a “no-hotjoin” level, because apparently every other ele out there is bad and need to l2p

NO, fresh air was unviable way before cele was buffed, when it was the last time a team with a fresh air in it, won a major tournament?

This is not true at all, fresh air doesn’t lose to everyone in 1v1 at equal skill level.

DISCLAIMER When talking about 1vs1 I always refer to tPvP and not the duellist server, with rules, bow, wait time for you to recover CD…that’s not 1vs1 worth anybody time because of its unrealistic settings.

The only 1vs1 that count are the ones happening at any given time during a tPvP match

The only way thief can ‘reliably’ kill a fresh air is due steal + panic strike proc, nothing more, nothing less.

And Fresh Air eles can win 1v1 in tpvp matches too, you know.. And since we’re talking about this realistically: what good thief would waste his refuge + heal + rune proc + steal for just 1 fresh Air ele in a 1v1? (in a match)

As I don’t agree with the fact that fresh air cannot win any duels (And I’m not talking about a dueling server), I also don’t agree fresh air has an easy time with a thief. It is true that once you’re out of cooldowns it gets harder, but you beat a thief as long as it’s dp. You stand basically no chance against s/d thief. Assuming it’s a ps thief, it’s not really so much about wasting SR since you can easily recharge it with Improvisation. A duel between a thief and fresh air is basically a war ‘’who procs first’’.

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Edits: I think you meant OwA and my trait granting 10% crit chance while in air because my only comment for bolt to the heart was that it was too low for a GM.

Wtf seriously. I said several times I was talking about BTTH and now you’re saying you talked about your proposed trait to be abyssmally low? And I’ve stated million comments back that they’re changing the numbers of BTTH.

You were the one saying that Phanta uses One with air(You said Zephyr’s speed but ye) instead of the trait, so the only logical trait you could be talking about is BTTH.

This was in comparison damage between 10% crit chance and btth to compare wether or not OwA was a stronger minor trait than 10% crit chance.

Ok, go and figure out what traits ele has. One with air is not a minor trait.

Supreme.3164:

I think the “1vs1” and “cele” cards have been played for long enough now.

NO ,a fresh air build does not beat a thief of equal skill in a 1vs1 scenario, as matter of fact at equal level of skill, a fresh air lose to everything in 1vs1. In this 1vs1 scenario you assume that the ele has all CD ready, which never happen outside the duel servers. But stop just with the talk, bring a video of you playing fresh air ele at a “no-hotjoin” level, because apparently every other ele out there is bad and need to l2p

NO, fresh air was unviable way before cele was buffed, when it was the last time a team with a fresh air in it, won a major tournament?

This is not true at all, fresh air doesn’t lose to everyone in 1v1 at equal skill level.

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

The abysmally low is mathematically proven…. and how is 10% crit chance worse than an absolutely useless 10% movement speed increase? Can you pls explain how a buff overridden by any other movement buff in the game is useful ( and you are telling me to learn the traits lel) ? Also you said the fire version of the same critchance bonus is bad and this is too strong, kind of hypocritical.

Okay, where is your math then? I want to see how it was proven abysmally low.
That’s my bad, forgot you wanted it as a major trait. Doesn’t change the fact 10% crit chance in air is not really much useful anyway. And yeah, I actually know the traits unlike you.

Please prove I don’t know the traits… oh wait you can’t. And I can explain via math but you still never answered why you want a horrific trait to be kept over a rather low damage modifier. Edit … Math provided in earlier comment. A 5% damage modifier might be too high for a minor but seeing as it only works in one of 4 attunements I doubt it.

The only thing you said is that BtTH is abysmally low, you never explained why close to 7% damage modifier is bad for a ADEPT trait. It also works in fire, which has the highest burst skills.

And your 10% crit chance would be 5% damage increase only if you spend at least half of the time in air, which realistically will be 3-5% damage modifier. Never said Zephyr’s speed is better (you were the one clamining it’s much better than BtTH, because Phanta uses it), I just said I would prefer something else than crit chance in air.

Edits: I think you meant OwA and my trait granting 10% crit chance while in air because my only comment for bolt to the heart was that it was too low for a GM.

Wtf seriously. I said several times I was talking about BTTH and now you’re saying you talked about your proposed trait to be abyssmally low? And I’ve stated million comments back that they’re changing the numbers of BTTH.

You were the one saying that Phanta uses One with air(You said Zephyr’s speed but ye) instead of the trait, so the only logical trait you could be talking about is BTTH.

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

Sadrien.3470:

Laraley.7695:

I wouldn’t actually mind having no CD (in practice 1 sec) on attunements even during a fight, it’s not really different from kits as long as there is ICD on all attunement swap procs.

This would be a horrific idea in terms of balance, it makes it harder to predict when you use the swap traits, removes freshair entirely ( this is currently the only non tank spec that is remotely viable on an ele ), and gives elementalists availability to any of their extremely powerful abilities at any time ( providing they aren’t on cd). It also removes all the flavor of playing an elementalist over other classes like engineer. As a mid – higher tier spvp player I strongly recommend that your idea is not added.

@OP mabye if you added a phrase to elemental attunement like when in combat.. but that would weaken elementalists out of combat mobility and adding a cd weakens freshair specs access to swiftness which is important to a glass light armor build with few escape utlities.

Ele is balanced around having long cooldowns unlike engi, yet they have almost as much skills as ele. I don’t see it as an issue elementalist would have an access to a 50 second cooldown at any given time assuing it’s off cd. Being less predictable and based on roations would actually be good for ele and it would also improve the gameplay as you wouldn’t be able to spam attunements on cooldown, but rather keep track of them. It wouldn’t remove fresh air, it would just take a bit more thinking to play the spec, it would probably also allow a better counterplay to the spec. They would have to add a icon or something to let you know when your fresh air is offcooldown, making it be less ‘’instant kitten’’. Seeing as ele has issues with survability, allowing them to manage cooldowns better would be one way how to help this and not force everyone into the same trait lines.

Fresh air is the trait that recharges air attunement on hit. And elementalists abilities are balanced far differently from engineer abilities. This is why and elementalist has a fairly even time in a 1v1 against and engi.

Yes, which revolves around damage from attuning to air, they could simply put some ICD on it and you could still play it. For the record, I never said I think they would ever decide to go this way. Just that I think it could help open a diversity of builds for ele and it wouldn’t impossible to balance.

And this game is not balanced around 1v1’s.

Yes and ele also has more team support than engi, how fair.

How could you have more support when you actually trait for damage? Ele goes full in support lines.

nearlight.3064:

Laraley.7695:

Vieux P.1238:

Oh plz.. mesmers has only 1 viable pvp build. The rest is all good for the trash. Leave us alone..
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Baron+von+kitten+he+is+coming+to+suck+ya+blood_08a5af_4043925.jpg

Yes, because all other classes have more viable builds.

Well ele has D/D, celestial staff, zerk staff, and zerk fresh air, which have all proven viable in various circumstances. Guardian has both bunker and multiple types of Medi DPS, thief has panic strike and S/D. Pretty much every other class has more viable builds they can run, its just that some are slightly more optimal in the current meta/state of balance. Memser really only has power shatter.

The biggest variation in a current mesmer build for them now is whether to take staff or s/t to complement GS. Thats pretty much it. The condition builds are both pretty rough in conquest, mainly because they don’t have enough sustain to warrant running over burst, and the lack of a niche for conditions in the current meta. Lockdown builds are interesting to run and powerful in their own right, but in their current state, that lockdown is useless without the burst from shatter to actually kill things efficiently.

The future traits will help a lot though, in part by making lockdown and shatter less mutually exclusive to one another.

In that case mesmer has condi, condi pu, phantasm pu, phantasm, shatter, lockdown…All are viablle in various circumstances.

Vieux P.1238:

Oh plz.. mesmers has only 1 viable pvp build. The rest is all good for the trash. Leave us alone..
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Baron+von+kitten+he+is+coming+to+suck+ya+blood_08a5af_4043925.jpg

Yes, because all other classes have more viable builds.

Nyx.7342:

Laraley.7695:

Nyx.7342:

Laraley.7695:

NeXeD.3042:

Laraley.7695:

NeXeD.3042:

Skeletor.9360:

I agree completely! That is why everyone is a mesmer!

Wait…um no they are not and actually there are not that many….

nuff said.

I beleive we had established no one plays a mesmer because a thief eats mesmers. The competitive players have mostly abandoned mesmer because there is almost always a theif. You see some still compete in tourneys. Helseth looked pretty good today but helseth is well… helseth.

Yes, mesmers are horrible, that’s why one is going to WTS.

I’m not saying mesmers aren’t good…

You’re just suggesting no one plays them. It’s not like the class is not viable, it is.

Its viable but its one of the hardest classes, if not the hardest class to play. Which is why not that many people play it competitively. Helseth plays like almost no one else which is why he can handle it in WTS

I cannot agree with that. I’m not saying mesmer is easy, but I wouldn’t say it’s the hardest thing to play. Imo, it’s thief even though the class gets so much kitten on forums. But if you talk competitively, then thief has a very hard time against every meta spec. Then again, people play it, so it’s probably not because it’s hard to play.

Hm i play thief and mesmer only. Im extremely mediocre at mesmer, but i am/ used to be pretty good at teef. Yes teef has a hard time against meta specs but that is because a teefs job isn’t to 1v1 except against mesmers and other thieves. They are supposed to plus one fights and burst down on low targets. They are extremely good at that and in those situations being a thief is not that hard. You can easily jump into and out of fights and you have stealth any time you want in order to peel off. Mesmer on the other hand has the exact same role, yet is not as good at it because they have a harder time peeling off and don’t have nearly as much stealth. I will agree thief is hard in 1v1s against meta builds and that against some classes mesmer can 1v1 pretty well, but in competitive play mesmer is definitely a harder class to pull off. Honestly in general mesmer is a harder class to pull off since out of most classes in this game. I dont really care if it is scientifically proven that mesmer isnt the hardest, but from my experiences trying to relearn mesmer, it is definitely one of the hardest classes ive played, definitely harder than thief.

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Thief has to be in melee a lot without Blurred frenzy, lower hp pool…I would say playing a thief is more risky, than mesmer assuming there’s no thief on the mesmer. I’ve played both classes and from my experience thief is harder to play.

Cecilia.5179:

I think that if there is any catch involved with this change, it will be the frequently mentioned “Make it apply to self only” nerf, but I actually believe that there will be no change, as the main reason to run Arcana has always been to pick up the 2 EA’s and Renewing Stamina.

I think the worst option would be to put selfish EA as a minor trait and a major GM trait would make it aoe. Then, elementalist would be still forced into Arcana and still lose the support it needs if it wants to compete with shoutbow. It would make a sense, they need to come up with a new trait for a GM slot. And we would still be stuck with useless master traits.

Supreme.3164:

Cecilia.5179:

Laraley.7695:

Cecilia.5179:

(Squeals like little girl)
Ele is saved! Praise the Six, the Spirits, the Eternal Alchemy, and the Pale Tree!

Inb4 they remove all good traits and replace them with downstate and aura traits. Enjoy!

I have too much faith in the many Guild Wars 2 gods to accept the reality of that.

We’ll will see what will be lost, what will go to justify this change… I pray, the price we’ll pay won’t be too high, they may well nerf some other trait in another trait line “to justify” moving EA from GM to minor, we may end up in a worst state

I’m more concerned about what they replaced Elemental Attunement with.

Nyx.7342:

Laraley.7695:

NeXeD.3042:

Laraley.7695:

NeXeD.3042:

Skeletor.9360:

I agree completely! That is why everyone is a mesmer!

Wait…um no they are not and actually there are not that many….

nuff said.

I beleive we had established no one plays a mesmer because a thief eats mesmers. The competitive players have mostly abandoned mesmer because there is almost always a theif. You see some still compete in tourneys. Helseth looked pretty good today but helseth is well… helseth.

Yes, mesmers are horrible, that’s why one is going to WTS.

I’m not saying mesmers aren’t good…

You’re just suggesting no one plays them. It’s not like the class is not viable, it is.

Its viable but its one of the hardest classes, if not the hardest class to play. Which is why not that many people play it competitively. Helseth plays like almost no one else which is why he can handle it in WTS

I cannot agree with that. I’m not saying mesmer is easy, but I wouldn’t say it’s the hardest thing to play. Imo, it’s thief even though the class gets so much kitten on forums. But if you talk competitively, then thief has a very hard time against every meta spec. Then again, people play it, so it’s probably not because it’s hard to play.

Supreme.3164:

Increased crit chance on massive attacks ( fire grab,churning earth, comet [lightning rod], lightning strike and others) it’s not a mere 2-3% dmg increase in my books.

Changing attunement while landing fire grab for ex, the increased crit chance can make the difference between 2k dmg and a 3-4k dmg hit, that’s way more than 2-3% dmg increase don’t you think?

Then there is higher chance to trigger renewing stamina on top, when you have over 25% crit dmg I don’t see how a 20% increase in crit chance can be seen as a 2-3% dmg difference.

But where did you see the CD on arcane fury?

I wrote it wrong. What I mean is that you have 10 sec cd on attunements, therefore you cannot be swapping freely. It could be probably more, but then again it’s two seconds and in a fight you might not be able to benefit from the fury each time, which is the case. With thieves and pack runes around, I would assume it gets overwritten A LOT.

Cecilia.5179:

(Squeals like little girl)
Ele is saved! Praise the Six, the Spirits, the Eternal Alchemy, and the Pale Tree!

Inb4 they remove all good traits and replace them with downstate and aura traits. Enjoy!

NeXeD.3042:

Laraley.7695:

NeXeD.3042:

Skeletor.9360:

I agree completely! That is why everyone is a mesmer!

Wait…um no they are not and actually there are not that many….

nuff said.

I beleive we had established no one plays a mesmer because a thief eats mesmers. The competitive players have mostly abandoned mesmer because there is almost always a theif. You see some still compete in tourneys. Helseth looked pretty good today but helseth is well… helseth.

Yes, mesmers are horrible, that’s why one is going to WTS.

I’m not saying mesmers aren’t good…

You’re just suggesting no one plays them. It’s not like the class is not viable, it is.

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

Apologies, I meant to say :arcane fury

Ye, 2 sec of fury on 10 sec cd would be a horrible trait to lose.

Ye…it’d be good to lose arcane fury to keep lingering elements and arcane precision…-_-

No one said they removing any of those. But saying you would lose your mind over losing roughly 2-3% dps increase…well, your priorities are strange.

NeXeD.3042:

Skeletor.9360:

I agree completely! That is why everyone is a mesmer!

Wait…um no they are not and actually there are not that many….

nuff said.

I beleive we had established no one plays a mesmer because a thief eats mesmers. The competitive players have mostly abandoned mesmer because there is almost always a theif. You see some still compete in tourneys. Helseth looked pretty good today but helseth is well… helseth.

Yes, mesmers are horrible, that’s why one is going to WTS.

Supreme.3164:

Apologies, I meant to say :arcane fury

Ye, 2 sec of fury on 10 sec cd would be a horrible trait to lose.

So you would remove pve to add more pve? Yeah…

Rezzet.3614:

Highlie.7641:

and what class do you play.. i will give you a bullet list of how to kill a thief on it…

its not a matter of simply killing thieves its thiefs :
A) completely ignoring a game mechanic because of initiative (chill)
B)having no counterplay when they stealth aside from timing chanelled skills
B2)Ignoring another mechanic while stealthed being able to spam stealth burst auto attack and not be penalized (Block)

You will not kill a thief unless he makes the first move and in most cases screws up badly

Yes, because invulnerability has a counterplay.

Nick.7259:

I agree. The forced waiting period is extremely boring. Whenever I go to try some unranked I quickly get fed up with waiting 2-3 minutes in queues. It really was a very bad change to keep us locked up like that.

So I guess it for some reason was necessary to have us waiting in one place. I understand that Anet might not want to have everything accessible for free, but, if we really have to spend 2-3 minutes between matches in this boring locked place, at least give us crafting stations and a Forge to keep us entertained.

How can you play any game with real people when 2-3 minute queues makes you fed up?

They should let us queue from the open world again, easy. Not like it would change anything since people can freely leave matches.

Sorel.4870:

BlackBeard.2873:

Thank you for sharing. While this is certainly an upgrade over their prior proposal, and will probably get lower durations on a lot of the boons, it still pigeon-holes us into arcana (because it gives the best defense in terms of vigor + prot + cleanses/binds) and water (it either gives all the needed cleanse, or one of the best damage lines if you are dps). It is good to see that there are more people working on this than the one guy who is totally lost.

You guys are amazing! First you were complaining that Arcana was too strong. So some trait lines received buffs (like Fire Magic with the 3s ICD Blinding Ashes, which looks pretty strong), and then you complained that Arcana was too weak. Now they are rebuffing it, and you still complain!

We should wait and see. And maybe think about complaining once we know everything.

That’s not the point. Everyone was fine with how EA used to be. If they want to buff it, then I would prefer if they did it the way many players asked for. To create some wider build diversity, elementalist really need to stop being forced into these specific trait lines just to survive. And I said I’m happy they listened partly at least, but with ANet it’s very rarely when they listen fully. It’s just speculations, they said there are big changes for Arcana, so it might be whatever, but there’s no reason why people shouldn’t be able to discuss things.

Also, I don’t blame anyone who doesn’t believe in ANet after the proposed changes.

BlackBeard.2873:

Gorani.7205:

It would be beneficial for global balance to give all professions a way to reveal a stealthed Thief. The Ranger’s “Sic’Em” did not have the revealed ability initially (Sept. 2014), so why not add that to an existing (underused) skill for more professions?

The “reset problem” could be partly tackled by revealing a Thief after he has finished an opponent (he scored, so good for him anyway).

This is all that is needed 100%. Give classes more ways to apply revealed (especially as aoe) so they can punish thieves for being predictable while in stealth. For a lot of classes, even when the know exactly where the thief is and what his next attack is, can do little more than eat his burst and hope to counter-attack. If, for instance, null-field applied revealed for 3-4s, a mesmer could drop null-field and flip the script on the thief trying to burst.

Also, I would personally put a very small hit on the teleport bullet of shadow-shot, so that it can’t be cancelled mid-cast while in stealth for a free teleport without getting revealed. As it is, you can keep track of their CD’s (o.k. he blew inf. signet, and steal, meaning he should only have shadow-step), but it doesn’t do any good b/c you can’t even punish them when they stupidly blow them (…oh wait he has a no-risk shadow-shot to hop on me, and nbd if he misses b/c he can just wait to regen init). Alternatively, make the skill blockable, so classes with projectile hate and know this is coming while in stealth have counter-play. This is one of the major reasons why thieves seem unkitable, even during stealth.

Withdraw is stupid OP as a heal, imo, b/c it also completely lacks counterplay (you can’t interrupt it, even when you know it is coming). 90% of thieves, when jumped, immediately stunbreak and start spamming withdraw, which gives them a huge leg-up in a fight. Compare this to a mesmer when jumped, who has to cast ether feast and is easily interrupted unless the heal gets covered. It is also incredibly strong ever since immobilize-stacking, and allows thieves to get out of the ONE type of CC that they would otherwise struggle with.

The problem isn’t that thieves need nerfs, they just need to increase counterplay.

If you give all the classes reveal debuff and remove withdraw, what does the thief have left really? Complaining about heal that has no counter play while Healing Signet and Signet of restoration are in game. Or Shelter if you don’t have any unblockable interrupts, you’re screwed, too.

If you want to take the defensive mechanisms of a thief, then give them Blurred Frenzy, Distortion…any invuln, blocks and we’ll see how that goes. There’s no counterplay to that either. Pople just don’t complain about that because it has a high cooldown, thinking thief can stealth infinitely, which is not true either.

BlackBeard.2873:

Thank you for sharing. While this is certainly an upgrade over their prior proposal, and will probably get lower durations on a lot of the boons, it still pigeon-holes us into arcana (because it gives the best defense in terms of vigor + prot + cleanses/binds) and water (it either gives all the needed cleanse, or one of the best damage lines if you are dps). It is good to see that there are more people working on this than the one guy who is totally lost.

I feel the same. I hope they didn’t nerf the durations too much, because they might as well made it a baseline. I also hope there will be some traits in the master slot worth taking now.

Quadox.7834:

“mesmer has more hp than thief and ele”-
Thief has more armor and ele has heals and protection.

“mesmer is the apex predator of 1v1s”
Except mesmer loses vs thief, ranger (condi especially), dps guard, shoutwarrior (unless perfect plays from the mesmer) and more.

So much smh at this thred o.0

But i like discussions, so keep it up ^^

People here seriously. I already said I was pointing out mesmer is not the squishiest thing in the game, jeez.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Longer queue times for everyone.

You know it might not be that way. The reason why I and many others stopped playing the game is the fact pvp is not enjoyable when:
1. No soloq AND 2. Bad matchmaking

If it actually was not so frustrating, there could be higher population and lower queue times. And even if there were longer queue times, I would take it instead of getting queued with people who started doing pvp yesterday.

Jon Peters just said on WTS stream that Elemental Attunement is becoming a minor trait. I assume it’s in Arcana. I think it’s better than what we have now, but still think it would deserve to be a baseline, this will force eles in Arcana again. Overall, I’m happy they changed their minds. He said they made a lot changes there since the preview.

Rezzet.3614:

thief just needs to be punished when spamming or attacking blindly when hitting blocking players or attacking while blinded

making them reveal for 3s after hitting a blocking player
have their stealth auto attack skill go into 2-3s cooldown when atacking while blinded(thief remains stealthed but cant use the skill that replaces auto attack on stealth for 2-3s)
and have chill slower their initiative gain should be enough

this way thief is still the assasin class but requires actual skillful thought out play

And what exactly can such a thief do when blinded in stealth? Break the stealth and waste more initiative? Because in that case, everyone’s AA should go on cd when attacking while in blinded.

Cynz.9437:

Laraley.7695:

Cynz.9437:

NeXeD.3042:

Your right, my bad mesmers are definitely just bad. They can’t lockdown from stealth and spike people for 10k. They can’t completely shutdown all transformations. They can’t teleport vertically, they can’t teleport there whole team to a point after they have stealthed to a point, they can’t proc air fire sigils from an insane range or use their gs as a range finder for enemies. They can’t go invincible every 10 seconds. my bad.

- mesmer stealth may be annoying but is actually necessary, they are glass after all
- define lock down? most of them are visible
- 10k spikes happen only on squishies and squishies have ways to do same thing to mesmers, really
- moa is really long CD and is interruptable…..
- mes ports have relative long CD and oncea gain necessary for their viability; they have low HP, not that amazing heals and almost no condi removal
- mes portal is long CD and forces them to drop other survivality spells; how dare mes to have team support O_O
- air/fire sigils are not class mechanics….
- necros/eles do same thing?
- invul is annoying but once again what is the issue? it is not like class is bunkery by all means and they still eat condis while in it

P.S. i don’t even play mesmer….

I would just like to point out some things. Mesmers are glassy, yes but compare their hp pool to eles/thieves. I’m not saying that they have more survability, just the fact their hp pool is a bit higher.

I think the issue with their burst from stealth is the fact they can apply 2 sec immob. You can see the clone going after you and dodge it, but I suppose it requires quite a fast reaction time.

The fact Moa is interruptable doesn’t change anything because you can cast it from stealth. I think that’s one of the most broken things about mesmers, it leaves you with literally no counterplay. However, this has only its full potential in coordinated teams and it can really turn a game around, but same goes for Lich, Rampage…

I would argue that mesmers have bad heal, in the regards of healing skill. It’s pretty good.

I don’t think mesmers are overpowered, however I think ANet is creating a major power creep with the suggested changes, which could bring many issues to the game if the traits will stay as we saw them. Also, I think that if thieves weren’t a thing, mesmers would be dominating the game. The class is not weak at all, it just has issues competing with thieves.

- eles have heals, thieves have more steath and mobility than mes hence why low HP pool
- You can see the clone going after you and dodge it, but I suppose it requires quite a fast reaction time. <<< "yeah that is called l2p O_O
- moa can be blocked, blinded, LoSd etc.; i am pretty sure moa fails more than it actually lands and moa isn’t as nasty as crate for example as you still can dodge and use skill 5 to get away~
- it is not easiest heal to pull off effectively and can be easily interrupted….. not to mention CD on it
- i think talking about how builds will play out once specializations come out is too early, nothing is set and we didn’t even see all specs yet~
- yeah i am sure mesmers would replace thieves but then again if that happend we would see more necros probably because mes get nuked by condis like nobody else and more guards ofc

bottom line, as annyoing mesmers are, i think they are fine in overall picture…. we can’t just have everyone play celery/cele engi/shoutbow and delete every other build~

other zerkers may struggle a bit vs thieves/mes/dps guards but maybe those builds need buffs because frankly even if mes/guards/thieves didn’t exist those zerkers still wouldn’t fair well vs celestial cancer

Zerker ele doesn’t really have that much healing, thief has stealth but what’s your point? Mesmers still have higher hp pool, don’t act like they don’t. Never once I said they shouldn’t .

I also never said that people don’t need to learn to deal with IP better, but I can understand why they get caught up. On the other hand there is a little counter to mesmer burst from stealth, too if you’re a squishy class.

Well, then that’s L2P issue for the mesmer if he cannot make sure his moa will land. It has long cast time, you can always stow it, immob before casting…

And I did say that they’re fine now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the class was broken after the trait change.

Jekkt.6045:

Laraley.7695:

Cynz.9437:

Jekkt.6045:

Cynz.9437:

You can have all nerfs for thieves all you want…. If thieves get same survival as other classes… aka HP pool of 28K, endure pain, team heals etc. tnks

- can thief sit on point? no
- can’t thief rez other players while being cleaved? no
- can thief stomp? rarely if enemy team is not dumb
- can thief win most 1v1? given same amount of skill and current meta – no
- does thief have amazing condi removal besides being forced into LR which kills thief more than helps? compared to other classes no
- does thief have load of CC that they can chain? not really… you may argue head shot is good but extremely short duration daze that works only if you actually interruped something is hardly CC compared to what CC chain engi for example can pull
- do thieves have amazing range to pew pew ppl from across the map? no
… the list of what thieves can’t do is actually long

we are talking about berserker classes here, none of them have 28k hitpoints and none of them can sit on a point. other classes would gladly give up their pew pew and cc if they could get similar stuff that thieves have. and while you cry that you are “forced” into the berserker role other classes that would love to play a viable berserker build are also not able to do so.

you can even take a look at the current metabuilds and you will see how some classes/builds struggle for a place in the meta. thieves never had this problem and in fact have 2 very viable builds.

warrior – shout celestial
ele – dd celestial
ranger – delete
necro – delete
mesmer – shatter
engi – rifle celestial
thief – dp or sd
guard – medi

i am sure some thieves would like to play bunker but they just suck at it, your point?
condi thief is garbage in conquest, stop calling it viable

- wars can play zerker fine actually, cele is just better
- ele can play zerker just fine, cele is just better… at least zoose was doing more than fine on s/f glass ele when nobody played eles~
- ROM on power ranger would disagree~
- i see a lot of power necros lately, your point?
- mesmer shatter isn’t zerker?
- engi is probably only class which has not so great glass build but frankly other builds are just sooo suprior i don’t even know why bother with one; i wouldn’t play it even if thieves and mesmers didn’t exist in game

classes struggle for spot in meta because:
- it is 5v5 and we have 8 classes, someone will be left out one way or other
- conquest either reuires being extremely tanky and doinmg a lot of dmg or be extremely moblile and do a lot of dmg; some classes are just better at it hence why people choose those classes

In all honesty, zerker ele, warrior, ranger…is not really fine. It’s not because playing cele is better, it’s because they’re close to being completely useless. Zoose was playing zerker ele, but I wouldn’t say he was fine. Each time someone tries to play fresh air against some decent team, they get destroyed. But it’s definitely not because of thieves, it’s because the specs is trash.

indeed, i don’t disagree here. fresh air doesn’t add anything useful for your team, you need babysitting all the time, you dont bring much utility other than swirling winds and you need to play it with a 150% effort while other builds don’t even have to invest 50% to do as good. thief is not the only culprit, that’s not what i’m trying to say, it’s just a part of the problem.

I don’t think thief is the part of the problem honestly. I feel like people blame the spec because it’s been constantly in the meta. For conquest, it’s one of the best things you can take as a dps spec, it offers so much to the team. But if you think about it, it’s not like the spec is easy to play, completely the opposite. Mastering a thief takes time and effort and till you do that, you’re just a liability for your team. I don’t think crying for nerfs is the solution, though because there is nothing wrong with thief essentialy, just the fact it’s good against zerker specs.

I believe people should start seeing differently and ask for appropriate buffs to classes that have issues to even get into meta. As you said, those classes have nothing to offer to the team. Would they be picked up if thief didn’t exist? Probably not. It would most likely end up mesmers taking the spot and the issue would still remain. Teams don’t even have to choose what to use now, because all these specs are just bad and utterly useless.

Cynz.9437:

NeXeD.3042:

Your right, my bad mesmers are definitely just bad. They can’t lockdown from stealth and spike people for 10k. They can’t completely shutdown all transformations. They can’t teleport vertically, they can’t teleport there whole team to a point after they have stealthed to a point, they can’t proc air fire sigils from an insane range or use their gs as a range finder for enemies. They can’t go invincible every 10 seconds. my bad.

- mesmer stealth may be annoying but is actually necessary, they are glass after all
- define lock down? most of them are visible
- 10k spikes happen only on squishies and squishies have ways to do same thing to mesmers, really
- moa is really long CD and is interruptable…..
- mes ports have relative long CD and oncea gain necessary for their viability; they have low HP, not that amazing heals and almost no condi removal
- mes portal is long CD and forces them to drop other survivality spells; how dare mes to have team support O_O
- air/fire sigils are not class mechanics….
- necros/eles do same thing?
- invul is annoying but once again what is the issue? it is not like class is bunkery by all means and they still eat condis while in it

P.S. i don’t even play mesmer….

I would just like to point out some things. Mesmers are glassy, yes but compare their hp pool to eles/thieves. I’m not saying that they have more survability, just the fact their hp pool is a bit higher.

I think the issue with their burst from stealth is the fact they can apply 2 sec immob. You can see the clone going after you and dodge it, but I suppose it requires quite a fast reaction time.

The fact Moa is interruptable doesn’t change anything because you can cast it from stealth. I think that’s one of the most broken things about mesmers, it leaves you with literally no counterplay. However, this has only its full potential in coordinated teams and it can really turn a game around, but same goes for Lich, Rampage…

I would argue that mesmers have bad heal, in the regards of healing skill. It’s pretty good.

I don’t think mesmers are overpowered, however I think ANet is creating a major power creep with the suggested changes, which could bring many issues to the game if the traits will stay as we saw them. Also, I think that if thieves weren’t a thing, mesmers would be dominating the game. The class is not weak at all, it just has issues competing with thieves.

TheGrimm.5624:

Laraley.7695:

Maybe don’t play hotjoin? The truth is that you cannot win in conquest without ever coming in contact with another player, however it’s possible in SH. And please don’t bring stuff like ‘’if your whole team dc’s, no one has to fight anyone’’.

Sorry swing and miss, can’t remember last time I did a hotjoin, we are talking ranked and unranked games. Stay on topic.

I will leave you with we agree to disagree to try and keep this constructive. Your truth is false though unless you are talking Deathmatch since all PPT requires is ticks of a controlled objective which does require not that you fight anyone. The fact that no one choose to fight and/or defend in your SH matches is the real issue here, but there is nothing preventing the same situation in Conquest, aka it is not a requirement to win, simply holding the points longer is.

I think the only thing we will agree on is it takes longer to lose on Conquest then it does on Stronghold since Conquest is more forgiving if you use the wrong tactics. Good hunting.

Well, you were the one saying you’ve had lots and lots games when no one was fighting anyone but capping points rather in conquest. This only happens when you do hotjoin or your MMR is extremely low. Maybe you should try to change your strategy, then you’ll win a few games and be fighting better people who will engage in the game, too.

Also, your objective is to have most points, but since both teams have to compete for those points, you’ll likely meet a player during those games once your improve your MMR!