Guild Wars 2

Phil.8901:

Laraley.7695:

style.6173:

Laraley.7695:

That’s funny since they said the next update will be core specs, which will affect WTS, too.

All it says is the next content update. Hopefully soon, but who knows.

Yes, but they also said that they will release HoT this summer and that core specs will be out before that. So I doubt it’ll be longer than a month the core specs are released.

They never announced a release date so HoT in summer is pure utopy.

And it’s always an utopy they totally change the entire system before WTS.

BTW i really like a quickly change but it will never happen before WTS, believe me.

I hope i’m wrong but i don’t think.

Watch the video, I’m pretty sure the link is somewhere on the forums, I don’t have it.

I really hope it’s not going to be mantras, Idk why so many people suggest it.

Guess what’s gonna happen? The same thing that happened to fgs. No one will use it anymore.

Swanky McDanky.5214:

Jski.6180:

Well the better question is where are they getting the ideal of “tempest” from. They seemed to have gone with an ideal for the class such as reaper being the monster from a scary movie. Is tempest from the Shakespeare story uncontrollable or more of a storm moving in fast and hitting hard in burst. Or it could be an ele who likes to spin a lot!

We could get a full literature of a Sturm und Drang class.

If we’re speaking literally, they could even approach Tempest is the “tumultuous combination of things” — perhaps meshing (probably closer to mashing) the attunements together to create combos

Or it could just mean something completely else, look at dragonhunter.

style.6173:

Laraley.7695:

That’s funny since they said the next update will be core specs, which will affect WTS, too.

All it says is the next content update. Hopefully soon, but who knows.

Yes, but they also said that they will release HoT this summer and that core specs will be out before that. So I doubt it’ll be longer than a month the core specs are released.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Where is the engineer buff thread? Engineer has more useless traits than Elementalists and more useless utilities than Warrior.

Once things that need to be nerfed are nerfed, you can go and ask for buffs to skills like Personal Battering Ram.

Fade.1743:

Laraley.7695:

Fade.1743:

I’d agree with this if and only if conjures weren’t balanced or played around near 100% upkeep. This makes them too close to being like kits for engineers. If they acted more as a cooldown for some increased damage in certain situations, then I’d totally agree with you.

I’d say the best way around this would be for the Ele to only be able to use the conjured weapon that automatically equips (that way group members can always be free to pick up the second one), remove the charges and make the duration between 50~75% of the CD. On top of actually changing the abilities of the conjures themselves.

I don’t mind if a weapon set (like Sc/F) is built around using LH. I just don’t want to end up in a situation like engineers where the only viable build in PvE (at least that anyone talks about) ends up being a 2-3 conjure weapon build. That was my main concern in the first post.

Hm, no. Engis use all skills in kits, every ele uses only #4 on IB and then drops it. It’s 20 sec cd, how is that 100% uptime?

LH is a different story, but IB and LH are the only usable conjure weapons along with fgs. Two of these weapons are used only for one or two skills. Quite long cds if you ask me.

Actually, they only use a few skills, but regardless, the issue that I have is in order to play an engineer in PvE you have to use kits. I don’t want conjures to be in the same boat. I’m not saying if you want to use conjures that you should be punished for it. Yes, there’s always going to be one optimal option, but there shouldn’t only be one viable one as well. (At least one viable one that the community only talks about)

I know the IB is currently used for 3~5 in the current version before being dropped. My comments about upkeep were in regards to LH. Sorry for confusion on that.

Actually, from pvp point of view engis use most skills in their kits.
On IB you can use #5 only if there is no defiance and seeing as two are dropped, it’s not always the option. Anyways, the time you spend using the conjure weapon is just a few seconds, they’re on one minut cooldown.

It’s not the only viable option, it’s just highest dps. They’re nerfing damage modifiers on ele and conjures, so yeah I don’t think pursuing the nerf even more is wise.

Fade.1743:

I’d agree with this if and only if conjures weren’t balanced or played around near 100% upkeep. This makes them too close to being like kits for engineers. If they acted more as a cooldown for some increased damage in certain situations, then I’d totally agree with you.

I’d say the best way around this would be for the Ele to only be able to use the conjured weapon that automatically equips (that way group members can always be free to pick up the second one), remove the charges and make the duration between 50~75% of the CD. On top of actually changing the abilities of the conjures themselves.

I don’t mind if a weapon set (like Sc/F) is built around using LH. I just don’t want to end up in a situation like engineers where the only viable build in PvE (at least that anyone talks about) ends up being a 2-3 conjure weapon build. That was my main concern in the first post.

Hm, no. Engis use all skills in kits, every ele uses only #4 on IB and then drops it. It’s 20 sec cd, how is that 100% uptime?

LH is a different story, but IB and LH are the only usable conjure weapons along with fgs. Two of these weapons are used only for one or two skills. Quite long cds if you ask me.

That’s funny since they said the next update will be core specs, which will affect WTS, too.

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

Your logic never fails to amaze me.

Gabriell.4856:

Laraley.7695:

Gabriell.4856:

Maris.3164:

Saiyan.1704:

How can you add counter play to a class that’s designed to play really well in order to counterplay everyone else? One bad move at any given moment and the Thief is toast.

I’m all for adding more counter play and items could always be improved, visually or mechanically, on every class. It’s a bit more difficult for a Thief when a slightest change in anything could make or break the class.

This. So much this. I feel like these people complaining about the class have never tried it out. Most of the nerf suggestions to thief that I come by are utterly absurd and would make the class unplayable.

Why should a good player be punished for being good?

“Why should a good player be pnished for being good?” I see what you did there. I’ll play.

Why should a good player be punished for good positioniong?
Why should a good player be punished for interupt of BP+HS only for the thief to HS again?
Why should a good player be punished for using the correct skill to counter stealth attack only to have the thief stay in stealth and stealth attack again?

I bet thieves are going to say “because they are bad players.” Lolz…

If you interrupt BP + HS it gives you a big time window when thief cannot stealth due to not having intiative. If you cannot put any pressure on the thief in that period of time, then it’s your own fault.

Since when does thief has only 9 initiative ? Last time I checked, every thief spec into trickery for a total of 15 total initiative. He will just HS again to gain stealth. Since they don’t have CD on weaponskill, HS doesn’t go on a 5 second CD like other interupts…

15-9 = 6 =/=9

PlatinumMember.5274:

maybe. Core specialization btw.

Yes, but when they showed the core specs they said nothing is final, they also said they completely changed Arcana and we have no clue what they’re going to release.

Well, seems like it…it’s more scary we actually don’t know what they have planned. -_-

choovanski.5462:

Laraley.7695:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

Well I love the Mechanic, the reason w hy I played Rogue in wow and why I main thief in gw2.

wow doesn’t have blind or aegis. i don’t have an issue with stealth, i have an issue with the fact that block, blind etc stop the thief from being revealed when they attack you.

i think we are talking about different things.

On the other hand…if you’re using your block when thief is in stealth, you’re not playing correctly either. You know that it won’t change anything and you’re wasting your cd.

yeah of course. blocking a 5k+ backstab is pretty dumb

The whole threads cries about not being able to block when thief is in stealth because he doesn’t get revealed. In that case blocking backstab is dumb, since as many said thief can just keep stealth up and backstab you later.

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

Well I love the Mechanic, the reason w hy I played Rogue in wow and why I main thief in gw2.

wow doesn’t have blind or aegis. i don’t have an issue with stealth, i have an issue with the fact that block, blind etc stop the thief from being revealed when they attack you.

i think we are talking about different things.

On the other hand…if you’re using your block when thief is in stealth, you’re not playing correctly either. You know that it won’t change anything and you’re wasting your cd.

They did say this summer a few weeka back in a video.

However, things seem not to be ready at all. They are going to release trait changes before HoT, they haven’t even introduced all the elite specs (not even half), Stronghold seems to be still in a testing phase. I don’t know. Imo, they shouldn’t have announced the xpack so early when they can’t keep the hype up nor give us any information. They said they would be releasing elite specs every week, now they have stopped. I honestly have no idea what they’re doing.

Gabriell.4856:

Maris.3164:

Saiyan.1704:

How can you add counter play to a class that’s designed to play really well in order to counterplay everyone else? One bad move at any given moment and the Thief is toast.

I’m all for adding more counter play and items could always be improved, visually or mechanically, on every class. It’s a bit more difficult for a Thief when a slightest change in anything could make or break the class.

This. So much this. I feel like these people complaining about the class have never tried it out. Most of the nerf suggestions to thief that I come by are utterly absurd and would make the class unplayable.

Why should a good player be punished for being good?

“Why should a good player be pnished for being good?” I see what you did there. I’ll play.

Why should a good player be punished for good positioniong?
Why should a good player be punished for interupt of BP+HS only for the thief to HS again?
Why should a good player be punished for using the correct skill to counter stealth attack only to have the thief stay in stealth and stealth attack again?

I bet thieves are going to say “because they are bad players.” Lolz…

If you interrupt BP + HS it gives you a big time window when thief cannot stealth due to not having intiative. If you cannot put any pressure on the thief in that period of time, then it’s your own fault.

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

you should not get a second chance at backstab if you screw it up. no other class gets that with burst skills. should I another earthshaker if my first one gets blinded?- oh wait we used to but it got nerfed.

it’s time to L2P and learn to connect hits the first time, not the third.

and also… you’re forgetting something. You can actually get rid of blind/aegis before you attempt to earthshaker. A thief in stealth cannot. There’s a difference between smart counterplay and complete shutdown isn’t there? Also… comparing bs to a AOE stun… from a set with 2 other AOE stuns… using a completely different profession mechanic…. okay….

thief can remove blind in stealth with shadows embrace. aegis is a problem sure, but shouldnt it be? currently the only thing you can do counter backstab is random dodge- and that’s a gamble. warriors earthshaker has many counters, not just blind and aegis- and it’s easy to dodge too (plus you can interrupt mid leap gosh).

i used earthshaker as it’s a skill that is integral to my play (and that of any hammer warrior), just as backstab is to the thief. considering how strong and essential these skills are to killing on these professions there needs to be a degree of counterplay opponents can employ. ‘dodge and pray’ is really not enough.

I don’t think medguards need more counterplay against a thief. Aegis on mesmer is just RNG and it’s not like you cannot interrupt BP + HS.

Spencer.5792:

Laraley.7695:

Spencer.5792:

So there is a huge balance patch coming, and you’re posting about nerfing a class that is one of the least OP profession post-balance?

Least? Lol.

Have you seen the Mesmer traits?

Have you listened when they said the numbers are not final, nor the changes?

Spencer.5792:

So there is a huge balance patch coming, and you’re posting about nerfing a class that is one of the least OP profession post-balance?

Least? Lol.

choovanski.5462:

Laraley.7695:

Dralor.3701:

I think this guy has made a nerf thread on every class except necro?

And now guess what his main is.

comically it hard counters engineer

I’ve sad this before, but necro only hardcounters engi if both plays condi, which is not really common anymore.

Dralor.3701:

I think this guy has made a nerf thread on every class except necro?

And now guess what his main is.

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight.

That’s like saying all other zerker players are bad and ironically the best players all play thief. It doesn’t work that way. Thief defines the Mets and has for a very long time, to the point that I’d almost suggest it’s the cause of the celestial meta. Thief has more mobility and “outs” than it deserves, while it could realistically use a bit more staying power in fights instead. (Sort of leveling the playing field design wise.)

I feel thieves get a bit kitteny calling everyone bad and saying “try it, see for yourself” because I’m sure they realize, thief has a pretty decent learning curve. It’s that learning curve that keeps it broken. It’s so squishy, yeah, it’s easy to be bad with. But play against a good thief, be one yourself or just listen to them talk, it’s easy to see, they are one of the most powerful once you are good with them and have a good handle on the tricks. Not to mention historically, stealth just isn’t a fun mechanic to play against. It feels like a major crutch and I don’t think you give it enough credit for how much it benefits you. You constantly talk about how little it does for you, yet when anyone suggest to nerf it a bit all of the thieves go crazy in defense mode. Your actions tell more to the story than you think.

All I’ve ever said was that thief needs some redesigns to bring them more in line with the rest of the game, but I’m perfectly fine with also compensating for those changes as well.

I get you like thief, but sometimes you have to just consider that for other people having really high evade time (SD) or high capability for resetting fights (dp) it just feels cheap and unfun to fight unless the person is bad.

For example, most of the skills on necromsncer that add up to anything has .75-1.3 sec cast times. Those are reasonable for reaction times. Thieves run a steal that has a 21 second cd, dazes, damages and heals, poisons, steals boons (stability first, talk about cheap) and soon will also grant stealth on standard builds. That’s one move that is instant. That’s just silly, and I’m sorry if it offends you. But when a thief tells me to “predict it and get good” I can only thing “get a life”.

I don’t have thieves, but I wish the had to adhere to many of the same combat expectancies that the rest of us do. Thieves have it bad in large group fights, but they are in no way hurting for viability.

While I get what you mean, I don’t really think it’s wise to compare thief to necro and say necro has reasonable cast times, so it’s okay. If you play anything squishy and face a power necro, you know that there will be a moment when most of your hp is gone due all the procs that have no tell. I don’t think it’s okay to have this in game either, especially when necro can one shot me from downstate due to this, too. I know they’re changing it, but it’s still in game and that’s not fun to fight either. On the other hand, I believe there are people who enjoy fighting power necros, so the amount of fun you have when facing a different spec shouldn’t be an indicator of balance requirement.

I think I might try this once I have a bit of time to play. I’ll probably substitute Settler amulet with Carrion, though.

Extreme.8350:

Laraley.7695:

Extreme.8350:

Stop using stability then geez popping stability and run across all cc in the game

YEEAAA BALAANCEE!!

Now u see how classes with little to no stability had it all along

That seriously does not justify to have something as broken as Slick Shoes in game.

u cant see giant spouting oil ponds on the ground?
think about how u engage a engineer next time

So your idea of balance is: You can see it so it’s ok and you can’t see it so it needs to be nerfed?

Stop telling people to think about how they move to or from an engi, that’s not the point at all, engi has enough cc to make sure he will land his Slick Shoes. If eles had similar skill, everyone would be crying how op they are. Somehow many of these forum warriors always leave out engi despite having skills some classes would be based for till ANet would decide to nerf them. Apparently it’s not enough to have immob on 10 sec cd, knockback on 15 sec cd with 0 SEC CAST TIME, 50% burning uptime with no tell, block that’s on 16 sec cd and one of the best heals in the game that’s close to being uninterruptable. They also have to have a skill that will continue knocking you down even though you don’t move and can completely negate any stability. A signle skill on 45 second cooldown which also gives the engi a very short cd stunbreak and superspeed. But hey it’s learn to play because all players should just magically grow wings and fly out of that kitten.

Extreme.8350:

Stop using stability then geez popping stability and run across all cc in the game

YEEAAA BALAANCEE!!

Now u see how classes with little to no stability had it all along

That seriously does not justify to have something as broken as Slick Shoes in game.

Ghotistyx.6942:

For a starter set, I’d actually recommend Diva’s condi s/f build. The main reasons being:

• It slows down the game. This allows you to become more familiar with the tools at your disposal.
• It allows you to become more intimate with your opponent during a fight, giving you more experience of what to avoid at all costs and what you can safely absorb.
• It reduces the impact of mistakes which will allow you to recognize and adapt later on.
• Diva’s build also reduces build complexity, which allows you to think more about the mechanics of the fight then the mechanics of your build. Other builds are a bit more open when you want to add the attunement dance in, but even Fresh Air still centers around air attunement.

Well, he was asking about fresh air build. Condition scepter build plays completely different and I wouldn’t say it adds complexity, but rather takes it away. Fresh air centers around attuning to air, not the attunement itself. Most of the damage comes from air + fire, but yeah there are little things in each attunement you take in consideration. The fact you have no rotations on fresh air actually means you have to start learning what to do in different situations.

So, yes if you want something easy to play and learn the game itself. No, if you want to learn how to play fresh air. For some people it might be better to start playing very risky specs, for some not. That’s very personal, but I just want to point out that condition scepter ele build is something completely different than fresh air.

Can’t wait for your elementalist nerf ideas, Henry.

I’m studying for my finals and always need something to make me feel like I’m still being sane and your posts helps tons with that, ty!

I don’t think they will give another class the same skill type with the elite spec. I also hope they won’t since I want deception skills.

BlackBeard.2873:

Let’s just add perplexity runes while we’re at it…(/s)

I hope I’ll never live up to the day when these runes are in pvp. On the other hand, maybe condi necros would be finally viable.

BlackBeard.2873:

For wvw, I don’t think you want to go “all-in” on zerker/valks. You really are going to need some more toughness (moreso than vitality) or thieves will 1-shot your from stealth. You can also give up a little bit of offense and still have enough to 1-shot them if you land phoenix.

I would suggest some soldier’s and knights pieces, with something like this (you want around 1300-1400 toughness, and ~15K HP, at least until you are more experienced) Also, I prioritize precision over ferocity, b/c I personally prefer to guarantee that air-attunement recharges reliably fast so I can burst more frequently:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJArdhcM6c2zwuBf0AOAGxgQMQcEIA0BLeFWCA-TlCFABBqEsJlGKpEDgHAQhq7IwJAAJlBGqSQa6BqZ/ByAoPGA-w

Personally, I use a more “general” build that just lets me switch up traits and still have enough damage/survival depending on whether I spec for fresh-air, d/d, or staff. With the removal of stats from trait-lines, however, this will change. However, currently it looks something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJArdhcM6c2zwuBf0AOAGxgQMQcEIA0BLeFWCA-TVCFABBqEsJlEtpHgSVeA4BAIwJAAJlbGqOQN7PQGA9xA-w

I built this way b/c I wanted some of the “free” stats on celestial and didn’t want to have to change-up my build besides trinkets (which are WAY cheaper than making new armor/weapons) to swap roles.

Well, that’s really personal preference. When I bother to do wvw (even in first tier) I always run full zerker and never had any issues with a thief. I would suggest to try it out and if it doesn’t work for you then you can always switch back later.

Toxsa.2701:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

Skills with 30~240 CD are lamer in my opinion.
I rather use mana system.

Have you ever played any other mmo? Things that have 240cd in gw2, would have some mana cost and have the same or higher cooldown. It’s not like games with mana have no cooldowns. Just take Time Wrap from wow, 4% of base mana cost, last 40 sec, 5 min cd and applies a debuff on you that you can’t benefit from similar skills for 10 minutes. Gw2 is balanced completely different and if you don’t like it, you can go play games with mana/energy/we you wish.

Tao.1234:

Lordrosicky.5813:

There are no condi specs currently because you ignore this amulet.

Wait wait wait….Then what amulet p/p engi use? or PU mesmer? or s/s War? or p/d thief?

barb one?

O.o

Yeah, all of these specs are so viable in conquest, especially PU mesmer. If you play that you cannot lose a game ever again.

Shadow.1345:

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

And you’re starting to compare to other classes, for some reason. I wasn’t even asking for nerfs here or to remove stealth from thief or the D/P build, but some people tend to feel attacked once you state the obvious. Yes, other classes do have vigor. Yes, D/P depends on stealth for the most part and they don’t have invuls and blocks, but it also has access to plenty of evades (and other stuff) if necessary. If a class picks a vigor trait or evade skills/utilities then yes, I’d say it picks it as a part of its defense.

Care to explain why “that’s funny?” I don’t even understand how anyone would argue that. All I was saying is that even on D/P, you also have evade traits/skills. I was just correcting a statement with my response above, claiming “thieves only have stealth”, which is wrong. That’s it, no harm done.

I’ll stop here before I get sucked into the thread. x)

And I was just stating that thief does depend on stealth. To me, saying thief has withdraw and vigor is like stating thief has endurance bar. Pretty sure the point of thief having stealth meant it just simply doesn’t have invulnerabilities or blocks. No class is just left with one defensive mechanics, but it indeed depends on some it. This applies to all classes but necro.

Necromancer has Death Shroud plus the same health pool as Warriors.

Laraley has a point and yes, I’m sorry tetrodoxin, I was wrong it’s not the Thieves only defense but it is a huge part of their mechanic for surviving fights and not just giving the other team 5 points every time they get focused in a team fight.

Back to Laraley’s point that classes have something other than evade which every class has to help with survivability. Stealth, extra ways to evade and plenty of blinds is the Thief’s way. Also if you’re going to state this thread is a way to balance the class then other classes have to be mentioned as well. Otherwise this is just a “I don’t like this mechanic because it annoys me thread” and that’s just being selfish.

Yes, but necromancers are very vunlerable to burst because they cannot mitigate the damage actively and effectively. Death Shroud is a horrible defensive mechanism, which makes you eat every single attack once you’re out of endurance and that happens very fast if you’re a necro due to not having any access to vigor. While invulnerabilities prevents you from taking any damage and stealth negates at least some of it usually, necromancers have a defensive mechanism ‘’Hit me because I have more hp’’, which is just not ideal at all.

Dark Night.5601:

Thanks for the response! I see it’s go big or go home then LOL.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJArdhcM6c2zwuBf0AOAGxgQMQcEIA0BLeFWCA-T1BFABCcCASS5Xa6BqZ/B+UCCwDAoQ1fIFQE7sA-w

Here is the build I was working with. Does it look viable or should I change the trinkets to all zerk also?

Thanks for all the help!

It’s your choice, but I would suggest zerker trinkets. Also, get rid of Cantrip mastery and take Vital Striking.

Another option is strength runes and battle + air as sigils. This is rather personal preference, but it works better for me than Pack and fire + air. Also, I think stones are better than oil, but I’m not sure about that one.

Another thing is that you might go for 6 in Arcana and just two in water/fire. It’s about personal preference, too. Just try it out and see what works better for you.

tetrodoxin.2134:

And you’re starting to compare to other classes, for some reason. I wasn’t even asking for nerfs here or to remove stealth from thief or the D/P build, but some people tend to feel attacked once you state the obvious. Yes, other classes do have vigor. Yes, D/P depends on stealth for the most part and they don’t have invuls and blocks, but it also has access to plenty of evades (and other stuff) if necessary. If a class picks a vigor trait or evade skills/utilities then yes, I’d say it picks it as a part of its defense.

Care to explain why “that’s funny?” I don’t even understand how anyone would argue that. All I was saying is that even on D/P, you also have evade traits/skills. I was just correcting a statement with my response above, claiming “thieves only have stealth”, which is wrong. That’s it, no harm done.

I’ll stop here before I get sucked into the thread. x)

And I was just stating that thief does depend on stealth. To me, saying thief has withdraw and vigor is like stating thief has endurance bar. Pretty sure the point of thief having stealth meant it just simply doesn’t have invulnerabilities or blocks. No class is just left with one defensive mechanics, but it indeed depends on some it. This applies to all classes but necro.

Tao.1234:

Then it’s your problem?
I tested all classes, all meta builds along with custom ones.
Every class can escape from it when they walk into it and every class can evade it.

If you can’t do that, that means you’re doing something wrong.

As I said, you’re completely right. No class should be able to use its defensive mechanisms for anything else than Slick Shoes. It’s not like there are any other cc skills in the game. I apologize greatly and I’m going to learn how to play because obviously playing cele engi is very very very hard and me getting caught in Slick Shoes just means I’m a noob.

ResJudicator.7916:

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

That’s funny because every class apart from necro has access to vigor. D/P thief does indeed depend on stealth, evades are not the main defensive mechanics. Thief has no invulnerability or block as other classes. You’re stating something that’s not really relevant.

D/P thief depends on blinds and interrupts for defense more so than stealth, imo. The use of stealth for defensive purposes is generally limited to waiting out certain cooldowns (for example, stealth when enemy pops obsidian flesh or signet of stone or endure pain). Otherwise, you can shadowshot or dodge most of your opponent’s key attacks. Proccing panic strike is also great defense, since many builds can’t do much damage to you if they’re immobilized and you move behind him.

As many have noted, a thief who is camping stealth in conquest is not adding anything to his team. I feel like the thieves who claim that stealth is their only (or even primary) defense are the usual WvW full-shadow arts trolls who rely entirely on stealth camping to cover up their mistakes.

Well, again interrupts are not really the core defesnsive mechanics. I agree with the blind, though as long as it’s a small scale fight. In a team fight, you’ll be depending on stealth much more due to random procs. Seeing as thief melts down quickly when targeted, it needs to be untargetable > stealth. What you said does works well in 1v1’s, but try to not go in stealth in a team fight and we’ll see how long you will last. If we leave out vigor, thief has withdraw and sb. If you’re going to spam sb#3, then you’re being useless since you’re putting no pressure. Stealth on the other hand lets you do both, keep up pressure and also avoid potential damage. You should also realize that a large portion of thief’s damage comes from backstab. Obviously, you don’t want to be in teamfights all the time, but it’s not like you’ll be decaping the whole match either.

choovanski.5462:

i have to run up to you and then run a tight circle around your feet. it looks very distinctive, i don’t hide my intentions i just literally charge you.

here is my advice on what you should do
https://youtu.be/UC86yQAzaxg

Yes, you’re right. Rifle engi has no ways to make sure his slick shoes land. You’re making a great point, I mean it’s not like engi can actually cc you several times. We all should learn to play because Slick shoes are really hard to land, like probably the hardest thing in game and running circles around someone is too difficult. And even when you manage to do so, like one of the meta classes run stab, so basically it counters it. Doesn’t even matter the cooldown is 15 seconds higher than Slick Shoe’s one.

choovanski.5462:

Laraley.7695:

Toxsa.2701:

Laraley.7695:

Johje Holan.4607:

The problem in Shoutbow is the “bow”, not the “shout”. The Bow is the problem with Warrior period.

Look at all the meta or builds rated Good or better. All use Bow.

Nerf the bow not the Warrior. Imo they should just ban Warrior from using a bow, that would take care of it nicely.

Someone has issues dodging pindown?

When the real issue is Combustive Shot + Cleansing Ire.
I know this is Larley’s style of derive the focus so that OP classes seem weaker.

Let’s see here.

We have shoutbow, hambow, axebow and great bow.

Do all these buidls use bow? Check
Are all of these builds meta? Nope.

What does it say? Bow is not the issue, but again you cannot see the difference between people actually stating what’s problematic about the spec and just crying how OP it is.

two things are popular for conquest builds, ranged weapons (so you don’t get kited) and AOE (because you fight on nodes). rifle is awful, so as a warrior bow is the only ranged weapon you can get. i run full melee warrior and i’m fine in a teamfight on node, but i’m really vulnerable to kiting. warrior runs bow for the same reasons guardian runs sceptre, a ranged weapon with AOE is tactically useful.

the CI argument is not that good for a shout build. earthshaker is not that hard to land in a teamfight comparatively, and a shout warrior doesn’t rely on CI for condi clear that much.

people just take longbow because it’s a good ranged weapon, and a good ranged weapon is a very good thing to have as your second weaponset.

I never said it’s not good, I think it’s a great weapon, but it doesn’t make shoutbow too strong.

tetrodoxin.2134:

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

That’s funny because every class apart from necro has access to vigor. D/P thief does indeed depend on stealth, evades are not the main defensive mechanics. Thief has no invulnerability or block as other classes. You’re stating something that’s not really relevant.

tetrodoxin.2134:

Shadow.1345:

Thieves have nothing else for defense.

Well…

Shadow.1345:

And if people aren’t complaining about thief stealth they are complaining about the amount of evades.

Aren’t all those evades also “defense”? Not complaining here, but stating that thieves don’t have any defense beside stealth is kinda wrong, don’t you think?

Can you play s/d build that depends on evades and d/p build that depends on stealth at the same time?

Tao.1234:

Sagat.3285:

Why does it knock me down if I’m not moving??

Off-topic what if immobilize was the same way? You can’t move but you can still turn to hit a target.

Your character is moving even when idle.
So even normally if you stand on the ice and move only upper part of your body, you’ll eventually slip.

Anyway, it’s hard CC skill. You can escape from it by stun breaking and dodge rolling on the safe side.
Did it loads of times.
Learned the pattern.
Learned how to deal with it.

As if you’ll step on dog’s pop on the street. You’re gonna call for a nerf?
Or start paying attention to not step on that ever again?

xD

Oh, come on almost everyone knows that Slick Shoes are broken. If I use my 75 sec stunbreak, I would like to not get knocked down if I don’t move. Every engi with half of a brain will make sure there is no safe spot for you to get out of it.

Not even mentioning engis have immob on 10 sec cd and knockback on 15 second cooldown. It’s not like they can’t make sure you’re get caught in it. It’s not like every class can run stab and have immunity against this kitten.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Did they alter some changes after the stream. I’m pretty sure I saw panic strike on critical strikes master :O and they were talking about making it less RNG-ish

Maybe you remember it wrong. They just simply moved Exe to GM in Deadly Arts. I’m not sure I understand why, though. I don’t think any thief will now go Critical Strikes.

ronpierce.2760:

Ravenmoon.5318:

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

Nope.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgcBqAPoBdg~

Thieves will now also stealth when they steal with 6/0/6/0/6 builds and take 50% less damage in stealth. Can’t wait, really.

I don’t think the numbers will stay. Also, you should complain about what mesmers got in this case, too. Like Mental Torment is just insane at its current state. But they did say the numbers will change.

Ravenmoon.5318:

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

The other way around. Executioner moved to Deadly Arts.

Toxsa.2701:

Laraley.7695:

Johje Holan.4607:

The problem in Shoutbow is the “bow”, not the “shout”. The Bow is the problem with Warrior period.

Look at all the meta or builds rated Good or better. All use Bow.

Nerf the bow not the Warrior. Imo they should just ban Warrior from using a bow, that would take care of it nicely.

Someone has issues dodging pindown?

When the real issue is Combustive Shot + Cleansing Ire.
I know this is Larley’s style of derive the focus so that OP classes seem weaker.

Let’s see here.

We have shoutbow, hambow, axebow and great bow.

Do all these buidls use bow? Check
Are all of these builds meta? Nope.

What does it say? Bow is not the issue, but again you cannot see the difference between people actually stating what’s problematic about the spec and just crying how OP it is.

Toxsa.2701:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Ross Biddle.2367:

silentnight warrior.2714:

The main problem with mesmer imo is the ability to interrupt the enemy at the same time it can remove stability.
No build should be able to remove stability and have a good amount of CC. Thats is not balanced at all.

You realize you just described Thief, right? Only for thief it’s insta cast with zero setup, has a 20s cd, a minimum range of 900, and doesn’t just strip but steals the stabos. And that’s not even the half of what will happen.

you forgot to add that a thief dedicates a full traitline to do it

And it’s so good that half of the people take it and uses it successfully in competitive scene. Yes it’s a trade-off, but a good one.

You’re wrong, everyone takes this trait line if he wants to be competitive. At the point when every single thief has to trait into the same trait lines not regarding their build, it means how crucial it is to the class. Try to play thief without Trickery and you will see how unviable thief is without it.

Johje Holan.4607:

The problem in Shoutbow is the “bow”, not the “shout”. The Bow is the problem with Warrior period.

Look at all the meta or builds rated Good or better. All use Bow.

Nerf the bow not the Warrior. Imo they should just ban Warrior from using a bow, that would take care of it nicely.

Someone has issues dodging pindown?

If you want your time learning ele to be worth it, I would maybe wait after the xpack or after we know the changes to core specs. It’s impossible to say right now. They did revert some changes, but also said that they changed Arcana completely again. No one can tell you at this point if d/d ele will be viable after the xpack comes out.

I hoenstly think you would be better off with shoutbow.