Guild Wars 2

Errant Venture.9371:

Simple, change Cleansing Ire to require a hit + depleted adrenaline to remove conditions. If you miss with your burst you get depleted adrenaline + no condi clear. Sucks for bad players but that’s what you get for not making sure your target is locked down before you burst them. It wouldn’t even be a huge nerf, you can still charge adrenaline while Bursts are on recharge and 3 condis cleared every 8s is already a MUCH higher rate of condi clear than any other class can achieve.

I’d be fine with that.

I’m with you on the cooldown, but depleting adrenaline would be a buff because of Cleansing Ire. It’s not like adrenaline is hard to come by, anyway.

I normally tell people to focus more on personally improving instead of complaining about balance, but Healing Signet is completely mind boggling. It is legitimately difficult for any build without poison to out-DPS it. That shouldn’t be possible.

At the very least, why can’t condition builds damage all objects after all this time?

I was asked to bump this.

I agree with most of that analysis, except I prefer Spectral Armor.

Knote.2904:

Guys chill, things are still really up in the air with trait tooltips and slight conjure buffs, it’s gonna take a long time before you guys see Ele’s are actually extremely good now.

Just wait, in time you’ll understand Anet’s masterplan, they’re 10 steps ahead all of you.

To be fair, they were ahead of most players when it came to warriors. I still don’t know why this forum is generally so sure of itself when most people were mocking the Berserker Stance changes as not enough when they first came out.

Was he conditions? I’ll have to check that out if there’s a video. Do you have a link?

Necromancers are soft countered by warriors in group fights, but they don’t lose to them in one-on-one situations.

A few teams left for different reasons, but the biggest reason they left is because they got bored. They justified their leave with all sorts of reasons, but that’s the root of the problem.

Every game has procs. There’s nothing wrong with them as long as they don’t overtake active play, which they haven’t at all in the case of engineer or necromancer. Spirit rangers are obviously a whole different story, but that’s related more to AI than conditions.

I’m OK with you not getting how to counter warriors as a necromancer. Not every player is going to have the skill or knowledge to deal with the class.

But it is sad how defeatist your mentality appears to be. I’m curious how you justify higher-rated players succeeding where you apparently cannot.

I agree that other classes’ condition builds need to be brought up to par with rangers, engineers and necromancers. Maybe they need more traits like Dhuumfire to help.

sorrow.2364:

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Proper positioning isn’t just about keeping a gap. It’s also about dragging opponents into bad spots. So that warrior might be able to get on the necromancer whenever he wants, but if the necromancer is smart, that will also involve dragging him into other teammates. It could also involve pulling him behind some sort of pillar or wall, where a necromancer can easily kill a warrior uninterrupted.

Greater Marks and Bashee’s Wail are worse than Chill of Death and probably Signet Mastery. (Most would prefer Master of Corruption if they went 30 points into Curses, anyway. Not that many condition necromancers use warhorn in the first place.)

Anyway, the basis for this thread has been thoroughly debunked. I think the developers also understand that conditions are settling in a good spot, so it’s just a matter of shaving warriors and perhaps spirit rangers at this point. No excessive changes to the fundamentals are necessary.

There seems to be a huge problem in general with how conditions are perceived by players and even some developers. Whenever removing bleed cap is brought up, someone always says that 25 condition necromancers stacking hundreds of bleeds would be insane. But the very obvious counter-point is that 25 condition necromancer stacking hundreds of bleeds sounds no worse — in fact, it actually sounds better — than 25 thieves backstabbing or 25 warriors dropping stuns and Hundred Blades.

Knote.2904:

Those are the kinds of elites that are more like the original GW1.

And I wish they were all like that.

Not these wannabe long cooldown IWIN buttons, where you pop it and become super ultra mega overpowered for a few seconds.

I prefer short cooldown elites. Aside from Lyssa Runes being insane.

I think both have a place. As a necromancer, I’ve always thought my class should have gotten an elite well on a shorter cooldown (40 seconds to 60 seconds) over Lich Form.

JohnCrow.7482:

This isn’t a traditional MMO – seems more of a action game compared to other MMOs. Reducing the DoT damage significantly, increasing the duration, decreasing the amount of removal seems like a better experience. Considering the fact that a lot of abilities that cause dots have a front end power based component anyways..

That’s why DOT damage is sped up in this game compared to others. That’s the case you just made, not that condition damage should be removed.

sorrow.2364:

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A team built around countering conditions would fall over to the one or two power builds in the typical team. That’s why the meta balances out to balanced comps in the end. That’s sort of what I’m getting at by pointing out hybrid builds are worthless. (Keep in mind that, with the way stats scale in the game, hybrid builds are not just 50 percent power and condition. They’re actually more like 30 percent power and 40 percent condition.)

I actually explained exactly how a condition necromancer deals with warriors just fine. It’s all about keeping range and maintaining cooldowns for when the warrior does get close.

The problem is most necromancers seem to smash their cooldowns, including Death Shroud, and have terrible positioning. You see this even in tournaments, where practically every necromancer spends half the match getting focused or dead because, for whatever reason, they all run into melee range. (One high-rated necromancer once called this his “play style” in a podcast, which made absolutely no sense. A ranged class’s play style can’t be constantly forfeiting the biggest advantage it has.)

That’s not to say there aren’t good times to piano cooldowns and run into melee range, but treading carefully when a warrior is around is a good idea.

That’s also not to say that warriors couldn’t use a few tweaks. Berserker Stance could be reduced to 6 seconds without traits. I also think they should revisit the concept of Berserker Stance and Automated Response only reducing condition duration by 100 percent, not granting immunity altogether.

But the notion that warriors make the game impossible is more a fault in perception and skill than reality.

Dhuumfire is absolutely taken in every high-end condition build, and it’s not just the 30-point trait and condition duration. It’s also Signet Mastery and Chill of Death, which are amazing traits by themselves. (Some people also point to the power and Death into Life, but I think both of those are too small to consider.)

As an aside, do you really not consider higher-rated players experiences when shaping your opinions and perspective? I know that if I played mesmer, I would absolutely consider Supcutie’s opinion as superior to mine. If I played engineer, I would look to Ostrich Eggs and my husband. And on and on. I’m not really sure how anyone couldn’t approach higher-rated players in that way unless egos are getting in the way.

That post makes no sense at all. Condition — or DOT — DPS is a traditional archetype in every MMO. It adds variety to the game, and a lot of players find it enjoyable.

sorrow.2364:

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You explained why hybrid builds are bad. Groups have a chance to balance out their strengths and weaknesses through a five-man composition. Why would they fill one of those precious five slots with a mediocre hybrid build that doesn’t excel at anything? Why would they take that instead of filling the DPS roles with a power or condition build that excels at its given role and brings unique utility?

This happens in every MMO: People try hybrid builds and think they’re viable because of solo play. Then a competitive mode comes out, and it turns out the hybrid builds are completely worthless because a jack of all trades is completely senseless in a group setting.

I’m not really sure why you’re trying to tell me, someone who plays a necromancer, that I absolutely get crushed by warriors when I don’t — and I play at a pretty high rating. With the proper cooldown management and positioning, a necromancer can handle a warrior solo — Spectral Armor and Death Shroud easily gets through Berserker Stance — or get peels through a teammate — literally one engineer, elementalist, thief or warrior is enough to get through Berserker Stance. After Berserker Stance is down, it’s a matter of blowing up the warrior. Warrior is definitely a soft counter because it requires the necromancer’s full attention when it’s around, but it doesn’t “crush” necromancers.

Also, Dhuumfire is absolutely worth the 30-point investment in Spite because it’s nowhere near the only ability obtained in that tree. It’s also a decent damage boost and condition coverage. That’s why, by the way, every single condition build gets it without question.

spoj.9672:

No that is the build that isnt up there lol. Thats the pug build that doesnt quite compete with warrior dps.

I’m not going to argue this. But just to clarify for some less experienced players, this is absolutely wrong and should be ignored.

Hybrid builds are never going to be viable because there’s no reason to fill a team slot with what’s essentially a role-less player. The entire point of setting up a team is getting specialized builds that bounce off each other to get a bunch of people that are really good at what they need to do. (This is the case in every MMO. People only think hybrid builds are viable until the developers add a competitive mode and suddenly people are forced to scrap their useless builds because people can witness the objectively poor results.)

By the way, necromancers are not crushed by a single warrior. If a necromancer really feels that’s the case, he probably has terrible positioning and teammates.

There seems to be a constant contradiction in this thread: One one hand, you say necromancers are too weak. On the other, you’re asking to directly nerf them. Bizarre.

You should probably delete this thread. It’s really misleading.

Sigil of Earth has a two-second inner cooldown and can stack as many bleeds as it wants.

Probably. Engineer is less tanky than necromancer, so that would make sense.

The reason they made conditions have some burst capability is because that’s the only way to make them viable in a fast-paced game like Guild Wars 2. Otherwise, why wouldn’t people just bring a power build if they want DPS or a bunker if they want something tanky?

Necromancers, much like engineers, are still uniquely tanky. But the trade-off for being tanky is a lack of mobility, not a lack of burst.

sorrow.2364:

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

I think you’re a little too stuck on that narrative. Just because I disagree with your idea doesn’t mean I haven’t read it.

Burning is in no way permanent. There’s enough condition cleansing in this game to cope with it. That’s why it’s not a problem.

Condition necromancers aren’t supposed to plow through warriors by themselves. That’s why they have teammates. (By the way, a warrior’s stability is usually to the necromancer’s advantage.)

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

dreztina.4820:

I always watch a round or two every time a tournament is announced, but end up closing it pretty fast. I really do want to enjoy watching this game. but it just isn’t a good viewing experience.

I think the biggest problem is the shoutcasters seem to have no idea what to do with the camera. They’re almost always watching what I would consider the most boring perspective.

The 30/0/0/0/30+10 build is crazy DPS. It’s up there with warrior and only below elementalist.

Conditions aren’t “too bad,” though. I run a condition necromancer and do really well. (Also, it’s not necessarily that necromancers are being pushed out; it’s that some condition necromancers are now going power.)

The issue before was that people took far too long to adapt and equip more condition cleansing. Now that they have, comps are more balanced and varied.

You’re not fooling anyone, by the way. We both know this thread was made because 90 percent of this forum still thinks we’re in a “condition meta.”

Nerfing conditions when they’re being pushed out of the meta makes no sense. You guys are just behind.

It’s kind of ridiculous how behind these forums are. The top teams are replacing their condition necromancers with power builds, and even before that warriors were keeping conditions in check. Yet here we are, and players in the 50 percentile continue complaining about conditions.

I’m not sure what some of you are talking about. Main hand dagger is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game, and Death Shroud and Lich Form are incredible.

Yeah. It’s even worse on the one boss where direct damage is multiplied and condition damage isn’t.

This ship has sailed.

No.

/15characters

Justin ODell.9517:

No, not a bug.

Please share your feedback if you would like this changed, or not.

Absolutely do not like. The mats aren’t the kind of Halloween rewards people care much about, and I’m giving up PvP materials that I could use to craft cool gear I actually want.

Like others said, I also don’t get why we can’t get the Halloween rewards on top of the typical PvP rewards. Are we really at a risk of being over-rewarded in PvP?

The alternative is a tournament chest, not “nothing.” So this is actually much worse than the alternative. I want PvP salvaging mats, not useless Halloween crap.

If this is a sign of the future rewards update, we’re in big trouble.

I wish it was a bug. I’d rather have PvP salvaging materials over useless Halloween crap.

Yeah, labyrinth zergs have really revitalized my concern.

It’s just weird that they explicitly said they’d address conditions in PvE and then never did.

I love the new condition floaters and ground targeting option. So good.

Oh, please. Guardian is the only class that’s kept a solid spot in the meta comp. Regardless of what you think of any change, the hyperbole is completely ridiculous and unnecessary.

At the very least, this shows the developers voice too much excitement for these miniscule changes. Maybe someone is spiking the coffee at ArenaNet’s offices.

What an embarrassment. I’m normally optimistic, but this is inexcusable.

Someone noted this on Reddit: http://i.imgur.com/Qix7Int.jpg

Could a possible fix to bleeds allow condition classes to burst bleeds off a target for a lot of upfront damage? It sounds interesting, but that could have big repercussions in PvP.

The new sound effect for greatsword auto-attack is so bad and jarring that it is legitimately distracting.

JinDaVikk.7291:

MLG was a joke the 2 top teams had dc’s causing them to lose. You cant use MLG as a example.

I don’t need to use it as an example, but I think it’s a valid one because, at the very least, it shows a top 3 team can work without a necromancer.

The current meta comp is guardian, warrior, ranger, thief and another class, which can be a warrior, ranger, necromancer, engineer or mesmer. In other words, necromancers aren’t necessary.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Lopez.7369:

I think people generally exaggerate the imbalances in the game. Most high-end players I know are completely flabbergasted by the complaints about the “condition meta,” which stopped existing one or two months ago.

Which meta are we in now? Which builds stopped it? Can these builds be replicated in every class? How many builds are now viable?

It doesn’t have a snappy title, but it’s no longer the condition meta.

Case in point: The team that won MLG didn’t have a necromancer.

“Shaving” is fine as a concept, but it’s just done too slowly. ArenaNet shouldn’t be slightly tweaking the classes every couple months; it should be done every two weeks or month.

With that said, the changes to Sigil of Paralyzation, stun-breakers and group-wide condition removal will do a lot. All of those changes directly address things people are complaining about in this thread, yet few people seem to be acknowledging them.

I think people generally exaggerate the imbalances in the game. Most high-end players I know are completely flabbergasted by the complaints about the “condition meta,” which stopped existing one or two months ago.

My only real disappointment is that the non-viable builds still aren’t getting enough attention. Buffing staff elementalist is nice, but one specific build for one specific class shouldn’t be the only build to get love for an entire patch.

As an aside, some of you should consider adopting more humility. Just remember how many of you were saying that nothing will change about the metagame when warriors and spirit rangers got a couple buffs. I know some of you won’t publicly admit to missing the impact of those changes, but at least acknowledge the oversight privately and consider it before posting.

Sigil of Paralysis is going to be a huge nerf to stunlocking warriors, at least.

I agree this is going to be a massive, unnecessary nerf if it goes live. Our class is fine as far as survivability goes. We’re finally in a spot where we can cope with our lack of mobility while still remaining a viable focus target.

If anything needs to be nerfed, it’s our damage. That’s being done through more group-wide condition cleansing. Nothing else is really necessary.

It would be really weird if we can finally see the life force number but the numbers for damage taken are still completely off, assuming that is the cause of the discrepancy.

Are you taking Soul Reaping into account?

I think our class might be hit too hard tomorrow if this is a real nerf, considering all the group-wide condition cleansing they’re adding.

The cap would still be problematic in big fights, but having some sort of priority would be nice.