Guild Wars 2

I’ve postet this in the german forums and was greated with little to no constructive feedback.
Maybe my approach wasn’t good enough, maybe i explained myself poorly.
Still, i wan’t to try this again here.

My proposal is this:

Make the old class mechanics elite specs in their own regard.

This comes from a few simple thoughts.

In-universe, for example, it doesn’t quite make sense that a Berserker, someone using rage and primal power, would also be able to stay calm and collected (Discipline).
Someone like a Daredevil, who’s more about getting in, kicking butt and basically being the swashbuckling center of a fight shouldn’t also be the intricate thief.

In any story you’d consider such people Mary-Sues.

In terms of balance this comes from a few other things.
First and foremost: When it was announced that GW2 would have a system that does not include dual-classes the named reason was that balancing such a system is quite a hassle.
You have to not only consider each class, but each class in conjuction with every other.

Yet now we basically have a dual-class system.

A lot, not all but a lot, of the current problems (like each person playing basically the same exact build on every character) could be solved if the core classes were classes in their own right again.

You could balance elite-specs more on their own grounds and going core would be a more distinct choice again as you could buff and nerf their mechanics on their own.

Yes, this would mean that there’d have to be quite a big rework of some things but in the long run, it should be worth it.

Would there be builds that suffer? Sure.
But look at it like this:
The proposed role of a chronomancer is direct AoE-Damage and team support.
While a core mesmer is more about conditions and intricate control, he has support-ish abilities but they are not quite his forte.

Why now is it that a chronomancer should be able to be the more effective condi-mesmer than the core class?

Anyway, i stated my case and i hope i made better arguments this time.

@DeathPanel

It being an Aura would remove a lot of the ways it could support though. I honestly like moving it around, i like standing somewhere else and giving my allies a projectile counter.
I like being at one end of a battlefield and healing on the other as is needed.

An Aura would remove the Legend from the ranged fight where it actually belongs,
that’s why i said that the Staff-Trait should be moved.
Not that the Staff can’t be supportive, but as it is it would fit more with Invokation than Salvation.

Does the Tablet need some tweaks? Sure it does. But the groundwork, in my opinion at least, is solid.

DeathPanel.8362:

LouWolfskin.3492:

And why am i not surprised that the proposed changes stop at the Multi-Knockback attack.

I want that attack removed. It’s a major annoyance already dealing with GS mesmers and Longbow rangers in dungeons knocking stuff out of stacks and damage fields because they just spam their abilities without thinking.

The only times this type of knockback is actually useful is in extremely fringe cases in pve and WvW zerg battles. And from the way the staff works currently it is not really viable in WvW for Revs anyway.

Well, there’s the thing, Knockback can be useful, even in Dungeons when the players “think”, that there are a lot not doing that is an entirely different story.
That you wouldn’t use Staff in WvW, again, different Story, in PvP it could be quite nice.

Your proposed change of the Tablet being an Aura by the way… from what i can tell it’s supposed to be used with the Hammer where it actually is quite nice to be able to pull the tablet where the heal is needed most as it doesn’t interfer with your normal skills that much.

I honestly never thought and after a few tests never will think that the Staff is ment to be used with Ventari.

Also, Revenants do have movement skills, maybe not all on their weapons but for example you can jump to a location with Mallyx.

The Tablet from what i’ve seen is fine, maybe a bit of tweaking but honestly nothing as big as what is suggested here.
Staff is okay as well, don’t see why it needs to hit five with the auto-attack, or why it should get quickness.
By the way, the random shards are fine as well, you can collect them via a dodge roll and if there are multiple allies around your enemy they often enough get them on shard-spawn.

And why am i not surprised that the proposed changes stop at the Multi-Knockback attack.

PS: If anything i’d move the Staff Trait from the Salvation Spec to something else, that’s about it.

Consider that in the upcoming patch Traitlines don’t give you any more stats.

Even keeping out the obvious reasons as that the system in PvP is there for equal footing,
why would you want to limit your character in such a way?

I actually like the new animation on my male human character o.o
And the dps loss a lot of people describe here isn’t even noticeable to me.

This kind of backwards mentality when it comes to PvE balancing is whats hurting the game more and more in the long run.

You could add more skills to the mobs, and i’m not sayin that’s as easy as pop them in there and be done, instead of simply tuning up the damage.

In the long run leaving confusion damage where it is at the moment still would be better, 1800 damage with my mesmer on Lvl 80 when an enemy uses a skill.
I was more than happy with that, hell, if there was a huge party and buffs got thrown around it got even higher.
But this? Specially in terms of how overpowered confusion is already in the earlier levesls, yes, it is, you read that right.
Before the new level system you got Static Shot on the engi quite early as well as Confusing Images on the mesmer scepter.
Both skills were enough to kill most enemies, that have so little HP early on, after they used one skill.

And later on? Confusion is strong enough as it is, if you want to push it to be more useful add some autoattacks or other skills to bridge the huge gaps mobs have in their attack cycles at the moment.

Dead monsters may not hurt, dead players however don’t deal damage.

Rauderi.8706:

LouWolfskin.3492:

What i’m saying is that maybe people shouldn’t think about themselves all the time.
Honestly, would it hurt you that much to maybe use something aside damage from time to time?

That delves into the realm of “dead monsters don’t hurt.” Damage is, in GW2, the optimum approach to all things. And all classes are capable of support in some way, if built for it, so there’s not much need to focus in that direction.

The problem comes in when most world encounters are designed huge monoliths as HP sponges and little else going on. If the mob hits, it either does nothing, or it’s a cheap one-shot death with very little in between. Conditions beyond vulnerability are pointless in those fights, and support is relegated to might/fury stacking. Dungeons will, at least, call for vigor/aegis/stability.

It’s a not a good state of affairs, really.

That’s exactly why i suggested a lot of changes to that elsewhere already, like healing veterans, conditions, buffs, even a Map-Scaling atop of the Event scaling and so forth.
To aim for a playstyle that doesn’t put damage at the top of everything.
If you want that kind of game a RPG is usually not the genre.

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

Yeah…

If you don’t get my point, just say so.
Together doesn’t mean coordinated, it simply means, together.

It’s how they’re playing together that you’re suggesting.

What you’re essentially saying is similar to the following:

“It’s not hot in here, it’s just that the temperature is really high.”

So, if i’m going into an event, healing someone with my Well of Blood, that’s coordinated?

Ayrilana.1396:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

Yeah…

If you don’t get my point, just say so.
Together doesn’t mean coordinated, it simply means, together.

Ayrilana.1396:

I think some people need to look up what coordination means…

co·or·di·na·tion noun \(?)k?-?o?r-d?-?n?-sh?n\
: the process of organizing people or groups so that they work together properly and well

: the process of causing things to be the same or to go together well

: the ability to move different parts of your body together well or easily

There you have a definition. What i suggest isn’t coordination but people actually learning to play together for themselves, making decisions for themselves.
But honestly, when do you say an ele not on fire?
When do you see a guard activating his virtues or a necromancer with bloodmagic to heal over the Deathshroud?

People go for damage and always damage at the moment.
We have, technically, huge parties on every map and everyone wants the slot for DD first.
Where as if we had something a bit harder, just a tiny bit, there may be something like a learning curve, there may be something that would entice people to play together instead of just for themselves.
And again, that’s not coordination, i’m not saying there should be dedicated commanders on every map telling every single class or character what to do.
It’s about the feeling that you don’t play alone.

Astralporing.1957:

LouWolfskin.3492:

The big problem isn’t coordination but the fact that people apparantely can’t step up to the fact that Guild Wars 2 already puts all players on a server in a huge party and that they maybe should acting like it.

Well, having every player work as a part of the greater whole, and not as an individual is exactly what coordination is about.

I actually disagree with that. It’s not coordination, it’s something that should come naturally.
When you play an ele and see damage rain down on other players your first instinct should be: Water attunment, healing stuff.
When you see someone with conditions as a necro you should either have a trait that pulls conditions, the Plague Signet or Well of Power ready.
When you play as a guard maybe your first instinct shouldn’t be: Let’s go for signets all the way, but maybe use some shouts (aside Retreat! and Safe yourself! honestly, those two shouldn’t even exist in the game as it is.)

The problem isn’t coordination but that every player thinks about himself first.
It’s not too little coordination but an ego that’s grown too big.

I find it fascinating that everyone here says that difficult content needs lots and lots of coordination when that, with the way Guild Wars 2 handles battles etc, clearly isn’t the case.
Remember Tower of Nightmares? Or the Attack on Lions Arch? The latter may not be the hardest thing there is but it still was challenging in a way.
What we mostly would need wouldn’t be tons of coordination but people going that tiny step away from damage.
Lots of enemies could just get a skill that buffs other enemies around them, heals a little, an autoattack maybe even a condition or two.
What would that take from the players? Well, suddenly you would have to use more from your skillbar, but honestly, would that be so bad?
Would that make you play more coordinated with skills that already heal in an area, purge conditions or buffs in areas and so on?
I can’t imagine.

The big problem isn’t coordination but the fact that people apparantely can’t step up to the fact that Guild Wars 2 already puts all players on a server in a huge party and that they maybe should start acting like it.

So…after 3 hours the few people reacting to this post showed me how much of an error this was already.
I’ll just close the forum-page on my browser, ignore that i wrote this and get back to having fun instead of the same discussion with 3 people at once that, honestly, encapsule most of the community as it seems .
Thanks for showing me, again, that actually you people don’t want to play a game with innovation, but rather still WoW and the like…
It begs the question why you don’t play other games then…but that’s not my problem anymore.

Thanks again for your time people.

Beldin.5498:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Beldin.5498:

Normally i’m in lower level zones to harvest and not interestet to kill any mobs
besides maybe for the daily. So for me the scaling is fine it would be even better
if it was like in other MMOs where mobs are grey and not aggro anymore.

For events, i’d rather have Orr like Ulgoth (or how it was in the beginning) instead
of having more bags of gazillion HPs in all minor World Events that in the end give
3-5 Dragonite.

See, this is actually the kind of answer i dreaded when making this post. From what i understand this game was made with equal opportunity in mind so…honestly, why should the dailies be more easy for you?

As it is now Level 80 characters can feel like god as soon as they go down the level range far enough and everybody else gets kicked in the ****.
So…yeah…nice that you like how it is.

Where is the reason to have levels at all and even Exotic Gear and traits if a full exotic 80 is as weak as a level 5 character in grey gear against a lvl 5 mob ?

I could understand that maybe if Lvl 5 mobs would drop T6 mats for an 80, but since that is not the fact nobody farms low mobs with 80s to have a big advantage.

And you’re still not on the same level as a level 5 character if you still have all your traits and skills, are you?
You are still on a higher powerlevel through those facts alone and would still kill them faster then anybody on Level 5 would.

And, as i pointed out in another post, you do get higher level items still. It is only a chance but it is there and for less work as it is.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Threads like these pop every now and then. There are generally two types of people replying:

• People like OP who want monsters in low level areas buffed or high-level players nerfed, because otherwise they don’t have challenge and fun.

• People like me who want everything to stay as is because we enjoy character progression and want to kill weak monsters for poor rewards in low-level areas much faster, because otherwise we think it’s boring and not fun.

If I invested in leveling and gearing my character in ascended, I deserve return on investment in form of faster kills and easier dailies. Getting to 100% map completion was rather boring already on my fully geared lvl 80. I don’t want huge HP bags with stupid AI everywhere, doubly so if they drop 1 silver stuff.

If your problem lies in running with underlevel friends, than simply gear yourself with greens of that level or take off some armour. Sorry, but I don’t want to be involved in a global solution to someone’s own personal problem

The thing is, that’s not how A-Net promoted this game.
And as i said before, i don’t want HP-Bags or anything, i want them to involve more buffs here and there, or even give bigger events the holy trinity when it comes to enemy NPC’s.

But you know…your post brings up a really, really stupid question.
If you want an MMO in which you can go around with a high level character killing low levels left and right with a single swing of your weapon….why do you play a game in which you get downgraded in the first place?

P.S.: You don’t just get low level stuff in lower areas, you actually get, even if it is just a chance, items on your level as well for less work…which again, goes with the principle of equal opportunity so, if we go with “I’m level 80 i should be able to kill everything” we should remove that chance of high level items as well since you don’t want EQUAL opportunity it seems. Just saying.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I do that often, as I key-farm. High-level characters have it a bit easier, it’s true, but buffing up the starter zones can’t bode well for those just starting.

I guess if some feel it’s a problem, they could always play in higher level zones, and leave the lower-level zones to those at the more appropriate level.

I really didn’t bring my point about clear did i?
I’m not just talking about buffing up a few events, which was all i suggested with a veteran here or there, i’m talking about 80s getting the hammer and put down in terms of power.
I play often with friends, some of them don’t have high level characters yet because they don’t have that much time to spent in the game.
If we only run around with 2 people, not to mention how it is when we are 3 or 4, i already can’t use half of my skillbar out of fear that he can’t get anything from events.
And i’m not even playing high damage builds, that’s not how this game should be.
Do you understand my point now?!

Before it gets to that point.

I’m actually writing all this as someone who has every class at least once on Level 80, so this is not a kitten low level noob just trying to get attention.
This is about turning the game into something that everybody can enjoy on the same page, or at least trying to get there.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I’m not sure what it is you want in low-level zones. If the mobs scale up to be a challenge for higher-level characters, what do the low-level characters do? Stand back and watch?

I don’t have any real problems playing high level characters in low level zones or level 80 zones. Nor do I have problems playing my weekly sub-level 10 characters in low level zones. It seems to be working okay for me, but that’s just me. Maybe I don’t understand what you are suggesting. =/

What i’m saying is that high level characters are too strong in lower areas. Go into a starter area with a level 80 character and kill something, then do the same with a character of the area level and tell me if you notice a difference.

And i’m not saying that the enemies should be über-strong or anything, but it would be nice if 80s had to work a bit too.
Let’s say, they get pushed down a bit in terms of power and at least a few veterans with AoE buffs are put into some events, would work out perfectly fine and bring people to a point where maybe you have to think a bit more about what skills you put into your bar.

Beldin.5498:

Normally i’m in lower level zones to harvest and not interestet to kill any mobs
besides maybe for the daily. So for me the scaling is fine it would be even better
if it was like in other MMOs where mobs are grey and not aggro anymore.

For events, i’d rather have Orr like Ulgoth (or how it was in the beginning) instead
of having more bags of gazillion HPs in all minor World Events that in the end give
3-5 Dragonite.

See, this is actually the kind of answer i dreaded when making this post. From what i understand this game was made with equal opportunity in mind so…honestly, why should the dailies be more easy for you?

As it is now Level 80 characters can feel like god as soon as they go down the level range far enough and everybody else gets kicked in the ****.
So…yeah…nice that you like how it is.

Hello,

i’ve posted something similar to this in the german forums already but since the discussion there went absolutely nowhere and was over in a few posts, and since i feel this is an issue that needs to be adressed i’ll post it here again in hopes that it will do some good.

Since the update of April 15th, the big trait patch that also brought us the changes to critical damage, i noticed that, even more so then before, characters of level 80, or at least 10 levels above the range of an area, seem to be so powerful that you have to fear them actually.
This may sound strange, stupid even, to some but hear me out.

If you go into a lower area with a character that has his equipment on top of the line for his level you are more powerful, this is most noteable in the starter areas but it doesn’t stop there, it gets blurry about level 50 or 60 when most people have rare equipment already, but before that it’s a bit dicey.

I would love to see that the character scaling for when people go into a lower area gets a bit more severe, it shouldn’t be that veterans fall with kittens or less, and yes, i’ve seen this more than once.
The thing is, higher characters are more powerful than the ones in lower levels already, they have most of their skills, better equipment (having three stats instead of one or two really makes a difference) and of course, they have their traits and they don’t lose ’em when getting leveled down.

Still, this isn’t the only problem with the system, don’t get me wrong, i still like this game and this is why all of this concerns me so much.

The other problem is actually that many events scale extremely weird. Some scale pretty harsh, going up in difficulty or at least time investet with just four to five players near them, other’s don’t seem to change at all no matter how many players there are.
And of course, enemies. I would love to see at least the enemy scaling in events changed, putting a level or two on them if there are twenty+ players around an event isn’t really doing much.
Honestly i feel like veterans should be more frequent if you get to a certain amount of players, buffs should also play a bigger role.
I may sound downright crazy saying this but it would be nice if enemies, at least in events, get pushed into the holy trinity with healers, tanks and dd’s, at least, as said before, after a certain amount of players is reached.

Ulgoth’s pre-events would be a perfect example of how little the current eventscaling actually does while some events in Orr show how it can be done right, even if the later means that a lot of the time the standard build of “Deal damage without regard of your surroundings” gets pushed into the dirt face forward.
Actually…that’s what i would like to see more often because at it is there is little to no reason to play with others.
Sure, you run into events and see other players there but be honest: How often do you play with them, how often do you really see someone with more supportive skills instead of just signets or other equivalents of “ego”-skills.
At the moment you may not play against other players in PvE, but you don’t actually play with them either…

I would love to see that change.

Thank you for your time.

So, i have to say, i don’t see how the changes to Arcana’s 10 and 20 Slots help the ele.
I’m not all against it but for me, someone who likes to play the ele a lot, the biggest problem with the Arcana-Line is the Minor Adept trait.
Maybe it’s fine with double dagger but when you play with a scepter or staff i really fail to see how 2 seconds fury, which aren’t even great IF boon duration was applied, help you out.
Can’t we get Elemental Attunement as the Minor Adept trait?
That would really shake things up a bit since it may not be the stronges trait the Line has to offer but in many situations i just don’t know what else to take since the other, at the moment, Adept traits are nice but don’t help me out as much as this does.

Mnemesis.8257:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I noticed a bug with Explosive Shot, in the description it states that it will apply bleed to foes in the explosion, but this doesn’t happen. Even with Coated Bulltes the bleed is only applied to your primary target and no one else, except with a critical hit due to a earlier trait in the line.

If this is not a bug maybe the description should be changed.

I have noticed this issue with every trait related to explosions. The OP informed me that this was not a bug and should be textually altered to prevent misconceptions. As is, one would think “Explosive Shot” is viable to cause vulnerability, additional bleed, increased explosion radius and +10% damage, when in fact it does not. So it comes down to either the devs including these changes as per the textual implications or rewording it to more accurately reflect its function.

I think you missunderstand me, this is what the tooltip to Explosive Shot states:
Fire a shot that explodes on impact, bleeding nearby foes.

That, doesn’t happen, this is not due to explosive-traits or anything it’s that the description of the skill itself states there would be an AoE-Bleed but it only bleeds your primary target as long as you don’t crit with one of the “explosion hits”, i know that it’s no explosion considering the mechanics and that’s fine. The problem here is purely with the tooltip that states something that doesn’t work.

I noticed a bug with Explosive Shot, in the description it states that it will apply bleed to foes in the explosion, but this doesn’t happen. Even with Coated Bullets the bleed is only applied to your primary target and no one else, except with a critical hit due to a earlier trait in the line.

If this is not a bug maybe the description should be changed.

So you guys are basically saying “Wow, this is a cool support-weapon” but you want to use it in melee because…why? The Warrior has the shield there?
The shield on the Guardian works with one, and only one trait in the respective line other than “the shield gets better” and that is Altruistic Healing and even that is debatable.
But you know what? You’re right, don’t use it with the scepter in the backline for support where even the Shield of Judgement makes sense to support the melees.
Use it in melee to push enemies out of AoE’s and break aggro, because that is what worst case happens with the knockback, you break aggro and send the enemies onto the rest of your party.
And what does the Shield of Judgement do in melee? Well, you get protection but to hit your teammates with it you either have to position yourself perfectly with the enemies and your party or you hit nothing with it. Really, the protection it offers goes just so well in melee.

Honestly, just make the shield a support-weapon, put it into Honor and say it gets +90 healinpower instead, that way we might even break up that Honor is basically just there to push the two-handed-weapons.