Guild Wars 2

As it is now with the Elite Specs we already have a dual class system, quite a few meta builds work with two class mechanics, and it is the most horrid thing in GW2 PvP ever.

It’s one of the reasons some builds feel so strong.

So honestly, no, as long as the next patch isn’t going to drastically change a few things i’d say they still can’t balance dual classes.

And i’m saying this as someone who still loves GW1 and was playing it, practically, since day one.
It just doesn’t work in this system and Elite Specs in their current form are proof of that.

Aside the fact that they announced this year would be about adding depth rather than “more” content to the game, people consistently asked for an expansion and less living world/live story.
Then, with the release of HoT, almost immediately they screamed for a return to living world, which probably was still on the table anyway but needs work to be done.

I can be patient here, still have lots of things to do in game with my friends so for me, this is a Little waiting, i’m still busy after all.

In essence this whole back and forth from the community is just a big comedy show,
especially considering that higher quality of content is demanded while people scream content drought at every corner.

Maybe you should decide what you want exactly because here’s the thing: Updates with more content and higher quality to appease everyone do take time to make.

And i’m pretty sure why they make one thing players are already screeching for the next 20 things that have to happen and can’t wait further.

On that topic: How much time do think should pass between updates?

Biweekly was too fast for the community, an expansion makes them feel like nothing happens, quarterly updates to ensure the updates are better? Even that is not good enough.

This is in WvW right? Maybe a sort of trap?

Erasmus.1624:

LouWolfskin.3492:

But Parasitic Contagion isn’t that big a heal, plus passive should be in big quotation marks as you have to deal damage, quite a lot of it in conditions, if you want to get any significant heal.

I dunno then. It just seemed like I was surviving a lot more garbage that normally would have otherwise killed me.

I play with it myself and while it is nice it still needs you to attack. As soon as that is denied in any way your selfheal goes down very fast.

It is a nice combo with certain skills though, i’ll admit that.

But Parasitic Contagion isn’t that big a heal, plus passive should be in big quotation marks as you have to deal damage, quite a lot of it in conditions, if you want to get any significant heal.

The idea in itself isn’t bad, although i agree, Shelter may need a rework should they ever turn it into a consecration.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Boni isnt a word. It’s bonuses.

Actually boni is a word, it’s one of the possible plural for bonus.

And honestly, regarding the original topic here:

I’d like to see this happen.

It’s actually funny to me how worried people get because they have to wait a little.
Quite honestly, the Current Events could go on a bit in my opinion, they added something to the world that, in the last two Living World seasons was missing for me.

There is stuff Happening in the world, the world is changing.
If anything, this should continue next to the Living World and even beyond it.

And i have to ask? So what if the story takes till august?
Just because not every update is for the “casual” PvE crowd, and they seem to be the ones screaming the loudest just to complain the most when actual content will hit, doesn’t mean A-Net won’t deliver.

If anything, the Current Events make me hopeful: Regarding quaility of the story but on the subject of Content Quality in the core game as well.

Months back they announced they wanted to add more depths to the game and i’d love to see that.
Maybe tomorrow will be a big patch that reveals some reworked enemies, maybe the Living World update, should it come later or detached from the Summer Update, brings them.

Thing is, worrying over it all won’t bring the updates sooner.

I’d rather get no info and be surprised than hyped.

Just… no.
Sorry but how little an amount of toughness do you want to get?

Most runes don’t give you more than, what, 125? Traits? How many really give you toughness, most react to toughness if anything.

And restricting blocking like that? Okay, how about restricting evades then, because i feel perma-evade daredevils are just as bad as blocking all the time is.

And quite honestly, i haven’t seen block as that much of an issue.
DH is already limited, most block skills have a set duration between 2 and 3 seconds or a few charges.

The bigger issue right now, at least for me, is the fact that quite a few of the meta builds work on the principle of two class mechanics at once, like Chronomancer Illusion, or Berserker Discipline.

I’m not sure this is a good idea… what about Carrion amulet then? I wouldn’t be able to crit with it as is.
So it’s a useless stat combo should this be implemented.
So every statcombo that has condi-damage but not precision is bad.

Don’t get me wrong, i see your point and there should be something done about it all but still, this seems a bit… dunno… not thought through.

Hm… i don’t really have a class i’d call boring to be honest… and yes, i do play all 9, if anything there are elite-specs i don’t like but the fact that i’d love to see the core mechanics be elite-specs to so that we have, in theory 18 classes at the moment (probably 27 with the next expansion) is another story.

scerevisiae.1972:

Hmm for me ventari is the most broken legend. The heal is clunky and affects toi small an area, and the traits are just terrible, eg daze on elite when the elite is already a knockback. 3 separate traits for outgoing heal %, healing power to toughness conversion…. just terrible.

You do realize that the Daze on elite is cast around you so that you could knockback foes around the tablet and daze around you.
Also, it should affect all elite skills.

That being said: I see your Point about the outgoing Heal traits.
Would love to see traits in all lines that affect certain skill-types like the selfheal.
Would also be great if Ventari gained a trait like: Interrupting an enemy triggers a burst heal.

Then again, i already posted my own suggestions on this quite a while ago.

Djinn.9245:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

IMO, “casual” means a person who doesn’t want the game to be a job.

The game isn’t a job, if anything players make it a job by themselves. Sorry, but it isn’t even a job with HoT, i am playing there casualy and yes: I get what i want from it.

Tentonhammr.7849:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Delgotta.3817:

I had to log in just to support Swaggers post. has some really great ideas there. I agree, support rolls, all of them are lackluster compared to damage. I actually ENJOY healing, tanking, buffing and supporting. The game has all these tools to make each roll viable, right down to gear options, which rarely get used because it isn’t supported.

Having each class have its own “flavor” of support, like the OP suggested, would really push this game over the top. I know A-net wants to prevent a trinity, but having only damage is a bad design. Zerker still is the preferred method.

The fact that Zerker is still preferred is not only by class design though.

Enemies in PvE, outside of HoT were at least some support gets to see the light of day, just don’t warrant other playstyles as much.

This though would mean the core game would need to get harder, Zerker would have to be less profitable jadajada…

The community will make sure that will never happen because let’s be honest, there are enough players that just want to see high damage and not engaging game mechanics

Orrrrrrrr, there are enough players that enjoy the reliance on personal skill and not having to have a healer and a tank tag along with them just to get through open world content.

Get out of the zerg and jump off the hero point train. Most of the elite and champ mobs have engaging mechanics that you actually need to play around when you’re not spamming 1 in an ocean of other players.

I’d rather see those events force the bigger groups to play better together and that doesn’t mean pure healer/tank builds should be needed.

Balanced builds in this game give you enough to do for supportive purposes.

If an event, for example, would scale in a way that with 5+ players the first veterans spawn that actually support their allies and are harder to kill you need more damage, if then later, let’s say 10+ enemies with more conditions and/or counter skills spawn you need some more heal/cc whatnot.
And an overall more rounded group of people would get through there with no problem.

Then again, this is my point of view and i am in the vast majority with this.

Wait for next year? o.o

Delgotta.3817:

I had to log in just to support Swaggers post. has some really great ideas there. I agree, support rolls, all of them are lackluster compared to damage. I actually ENJOY healing, tanking, buffing and supporting. The game has all these tools to make each roll viable, right down to gear options, which rarely get used because it isn’t supported.

Having each class have its own “flavor” of support, like the OP suggested, would really push this game over the top. I know A-net wants to prevent a trinity, but having only damage is a bad design. Zerker still is the preferred method.

The fact that Zerker is still preferred is not only by class design though.

Enemies in PvE, outside of HoT were at least some support gets to see the light of day, just don’t warrant other playstyles as much.

This though would mean the core game would need to get harder, Zerker would have to be less profitable jadajada…

The community will make sure that will never happen because let’s be honest, there are enough players that just want to see high damage and not engaging game mechanics

From what i can tell this comes mostly up in Orr, Cursed Shore to be exact… quite honestly, the whole of Orr should get a rework at some point.

That’s just my opinion though.

Moyayuki.3619:

The OP was not insinuating that “casual” players of GW2 are “I want to be a loner and have everything be one-hit easy-mode”, like you just did. And I find that insulting. Sure, I play solo unless I run a dungeon, but do I, someone who does consider myself a “casual” player, want the game to “not get harder than Tetris at lowest setting”? Where the hell did you even get that claim? Just admit that there are tons of different types of players out there, and many could be considered one or more types of “casual” (it’s not a term set in stone, just like “hard-core” or “elite” isn’t, either).

By extension, everyone will react differently to HoT. Some will have no issue regardless of class. Others will struggle. Is someone struggling with HoT hurting your personal game time? So then why bother if someone struggles with it? I do have to admit, some navigation in the HoT maps is really counter-intuitive, with the mini-map not helping matters. And there are enemies (Itzel frogs, mushrooms) that seem incredibly “cheap” at times. There are frustrating aspects of HoT. And that’s my personal opinion.

I’ll admit my fault as a human being because after a while all these: Arena Net is so mean to us casuals and HoT is bad for the game threads just bleed together for me.

And… to my defense: I asked if those were defining points of the casual.

I want to understand this as it gets thrown around so often and in such a density that i just don’t know what exactly casual is supposed to mean here.

But.. i am sorry for insulting you or others with my maybe rudely chosen words.
I can hope nothing more than that you will accept my apology.

I have to ask how the Warrior Greatsword is engaging, to me that thing felt clunky at best in almost 4 years of playing now.

Reaper GS is a tank weapon, at least for me, and i actually like how it operates.

Once again i will ask: What exactly does casual mean?

I want to know this.
I want to know what this casual player sees himself doing in an MMO.

Do you want to… i don’t know never have to play with others? Because that was something the game promised early on as well: Everyone is your party.

Do you want to never have to do more than to use your auto attack?

Before the whole HoT-discussion in these Forums i saw casual as easy to learn and understand.
As a game that you can get into without much work but that will reward you for getting that one step deeper.

But apparantly that’s not it.
Casual, from what i see in these posts, and even in the german forums, seems to be:
I don’t want to have to play with others, i don’t want any challenge what so ever, content should not get harder than Tetris on it’s lowest setting.

And i don’t believe that’s what casual means because before HoT a lot of people were asking for harder content, for that tiny bit of a challenge more.

And how exactly does HoT challenge you? It’s one or two counter skills here or there, maybe a bit of CC.
Actually… HoT asks for teamplay, and that it gets bashed for that means for me: Casual means egotistical.
Because the playerbase can’t be asked to see beyond the fence of their frontyard.

And you know what? I go solo into the HoT areas every now and then. I don’t see them as that challenging.
If i see a bigger event i ask people to join, they participate, everyone has (hopefully) fun.
That’s the essence of what GW2 promised at the start.

In all honesty:

I often see the word elitist and “pro” (in a very negative way) thrown around in these discussions when people who enjoy HoT try to defend it.
But the so called “casuals” are way more elitist than the other ones could every be because nothing better dare change the way too easy content in the core game.

And exactly that easy content is to blame when people complain that HoT is too hard.

Maybe they should simply remove class stacking from PvP.. sucks anyway.

How exactly do people define casual?

For heavens sake, HoT is not hard, not even by a long shot.

You can get in, play, get out.

I don’t exactly know how you define casual here but for me at least it’s: Easy to learn.

And GW2 is just that, easy to learn. HoT is not harder than any other content and if you feel that it is you should complain that the core game didn’t teach you enough/anything.

Honestly, adapting to a few counter skills and maybe needing to have one or two other people for most events, as long as there aren’t any champions/legendaries around you shouldn’t need more, shouldn’t be considered hardcore either.

This whole: “Waaah, HoT is not what i bought the original game for” feels really hollow when the same people before complained about: No endgame, no expansions, and the need to log in every two weeks due to livestory.

You wanted this, if you want to admit it or not.

My biggest fear? That the community will get worse with every expansion… which it will so…not fear but reality.

They already said they wouldn’t do it that way.

Expansions will cost each.

DoctorDing.5890:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Who exactly is this core player that keeps being mentioned?

The core demographic of the game is the one you keep denying the existence of, m8.

Ah, so the people that only play zerker, go to HoT, die, and cry on the forums because the difficulty is too high.

Not like everything i’m suggesting here actually would help them as well.
But yeah, i’m denying their existence.

Who exactly is this core player that keeps being mentioned?

Sartharina.3542:

LouWolfskin.3492:

-snip-

But we did have this learning curve! It’s called Living Story Season 1! It introduced all sorts of things – tougher, more dynamic enemies in the Molten and Toxic alliances, the Karka invasion and Southsun Cove, The Aetherblades. All sorts of bosses (Crown Pavillion, Marrionette, etc.)

And then they got rid of almost all of it (Still have remnants of S1 around, though, like the Toxic Spores in Kryta). So now there’s a difficulty spike between the Core Tyria and LS2 zones… and I don’t find Dry Top and Silverwastes to be much easier than HoT maps.

My entire point is, if anything, that this should return but spread out to the whole world.
Introduce different mechanics, at least more focused, to differently leveled areas.

My best example would be how Harathi Hinterlands feel at the moment.
Do the centaurs feel like a threat to anyone?
They do have everything they need to be a menacing army but.. they do nothing special.
They don’t have more skills than the oposing Seraph-NPC’s, they don’t have more HP or toughness.
The centaurs, as enemies, are weak, yet we are supposed to see them as some sort of hindrance.
Some of it is the abyssmal enemy scaling in Events in core tyria, some of it though is the fact that there is no real monster-balance.

The Krait, in fact, are, with some of the remnants of LS1, the best designed enemies core tyria has at the moment. And even that i have to take with a grain of salt, because events with them quite often showcase how Little teamplay there is in the EU community in the open world.
And that goes back to my original point: It’s not needed at the moment.

Which goes against anything Arena Net has said over the years.
Especially when they announced with HoT: We will end the zerker-PvE meta.
Yeah, didn’t happen, did it?

DoctorDing.5890:

I think quite a few of you are ignoring the core GW audience…

Please, elaborate.

Am i not part of this core after playing since GW1 and getting GW2 as well as HoT on day one, even participating in the betas of all 3?

Moyayuki.3619:

That’s my point, Orr isn’t hard after they nerfed it (getting some WPs or HPs or Vistas can be annoying, though), and then you have the LS and HoT maps which don’t reflect a balanced jump in difficulty between maps. I think everyone here can agree that core Tyria, even Orr, does not train players to succeed (or at least survive) in HoT. But how can ANet fix that without upping the difficulty of the entire game? Many different players enjoy GW2, both the casuals and the hard-cores.

As i said, do it so that the game flows more naturally.
For example. You start with no conditions that enemies dish out in the starter areas.
With Lvl 15-20 they should at least deal some. A little bleed here, a little poison there.

Lvl 25-30 should add a few buffs, enemies that gain might or protection. Maybe even some enemies that have a functioniging block-stance (looking at the centaurs here that block one attack after a 3 second animation of a raised shield).

Lvl 35-40? Add some heal, here and there, some enemies that heal a little in an area, some that heal themselves (raptors are a great example, one of the few enemies that have heal and cc).

50 onward: CC, sure it should be there before too, but make it noticeable that Lvl 50 is slowly turning the game around.

60 onward: All of the above at once. At least in events: You are in dangerous territory, the pact has formed, the different orders are noticeable in every area of this Lvl. Make this count, bind it into the lore.

Of course, Veterans should be better, they should feel special as i said.
Bandit Veterans for example could have Venomous Aura and a venom that works with their intended role (Saboteurs? Give them Ice Drake Venom to make getting away harder, the tanky ones with a shield and mace? Skelk Venom. And so on)

A lot of enemies, in my opinion, should do what is expected of players, or even more (holy trinity, as much as many may hate it, would work wonders if the enemies outside of HoT had it.)
And HoT makes a great showcase of this.
The best example though is Winds of Change from GW1, now i know, this can’t be done with copy paste but in Winds of Change, even in War of Kryta, the enemies used player builds and it made them challenging.

Moyayuki.3619:

I understand your point, which many other people have made, that core GW2 should prepare all types of players for HoT content. However, I do see an issue: Why change the core game so drastically after the fact, when other players may not even have the intention of buying HoT? Of course, I’m not saying that HoT should be nerfed. There really does need to be something that prepares the player for the rise in difficulty. Heck, even Dry Top and Silverwastes don’t feel like a decent transition. For me, Maguuma Wastes felt like a huge jump in difficulty from Orr, given the confusing terrain, and then Heart of Maguuma was an even bigger jump in confusion from Wastes. But there wasn’t anything in between Core and Wastes and Wastes and Heart. If that makes sense… Even dungeons don’t act as the right type of preparation/training.

Thing is… Orr isn’t hard. It never was.
And that people act as if it is, that people even say (and i’ve seen this a lot, especially after HoT got released) that the game, even the core game, instead should get easier because it’s not casual friendly enough, just saddens me.

I’m in the minority here though, i realize that.
I’m in that weird spot where i actually like balanced build, to support others, to choose a dedicated role (as far as it is possible in GW) and so on.
I don’t mind giving up some damage to be more useful to others around me, because i still can manage to get around, yes, even in HoT.

All in all a better curved difficulty, actually teaching people in the coregame what to expect later (through dungeons, through open world and so on) would not only foster the community into a way better place but also help their sales and help keep players around.

And here’s the kicker: Sure, people may not be interested in HoT… but what about the next expansion? Or the one after… hell, what if they have to make a Guild Wars 3?

We wouldn’t have this discussion, at least in my opinion, if player builds in PvE would be more spread out in terms of: What does this character actually do?

And in regards to CC?
I quite often get to hear from people, yes, now just as often as at the start of HoT: Why should i use CC when i don’t need it most of the time.

Yes, in Dragon’s Stand CC is quite common but honestly? I’ve seen enough players so frustrated with the difficulty in HoT, and the need for specific (“specific”) mechanics, in contrast to how easy the core game is that they don’t even bother going there.

If anything a few things from HoT should get carried over to the core game to ease players into this whole thing.

So, i had a little time to think on this in the last hours…

I want to make a point here:

Roughly a year ago a good friend of mine bought GW2 and started playing, while i adviced her to start with something easier, she started as a thief.
It went… okay. We mostly played together, i helped out in any way i could.
But she’s just not as adapt to playing this type of game as someone else might be, going as far as to actually have to teach her how WASD controls work and why they are something good in most cases.

Now, core game, as you would expect, was no problem at all, we explored some maps, did some dungeons, guild took her into some fractals. The usual stuff.

Then HoT got released, she wasn’t very interested in it at first but as she heard friends and me talk about it she decided to buy it.

The first few weeks after buying it she felt real frustration because all of a sudden the game was hard as hell (and this was after the HoT nerf).
She didn’t know how to actually play the game as a matter of fact and said herself that the core game hadn’t teached her anything despite my best efforts to try and make up for the flaws.

While she has adapted a little, even started playing alone in the last two weeks, and is more interested in mastering controls as well as her class…the point still stands, and she aknowledges it a lot herself: the core game is way too easy.

There is no real reason to have lots of heal, most enemies die in seconds.
There is no real reason to have teamplay for the same point.
Events seem completely removed from the idea of playing together as AoE’s just fly around while people, worst case, die all the time and just get back to the nearest waypoint.
CC is a concept you rarely have to use in the core game yet in HoT she saw how useful she can be as an aura thief with the elite venom, basically getting champs down to half the breakbar with no effort.

But the core game doesn’t teach you this stuff.

And now i know what will happen, people will come and tell me: But this is a casual game, it shouldn’t be hard.

No.

Casual means it shouldn’t be hard to learn.
And there in lies the problem we have at the moment: You learn nothing from playing core.

I will say that the “Current Events” that happen right now give me some hope that with the new living story there will be some, maybe minor, rework of a few enemies to make teamplay more interesting.

But we need a little higher difficulty. And i’m not saying that this game should kick you between the legs from the starter areas on.

Have it in different forms and ways… add a few more conditions from 20 on, a few more buffs with 30 or actual counter skills on some enemies.
Veterans and Elite should spawn a little earlier in some events (5+ players should be able to do quite a lot) and give them builds that make them feel like they are something special.
AoE-Buff auras, heal, counters, actual blocks and so on.

The difficulty in HoT is not as steep as a lot of you make it out to be.
In my honest opinion HoT is how the game should be at least after Lvl 60.

Players should feel challenged when something big happens and enemies should feel like a threat if Arena Net really wants to push the feeling of being in a group as soon as you join a map.

When i see an ele my first thought shouldn’t be: He’s gonna stay in fire attunement for hours, isn’t he?
My thought should be: Holy kitten yes an elementalist, he’s gonna make this easier with ALL his available skills.

psizone.8437:

I still think they should convert one traitline on each class into an Elite spec and make that the “What class mechanic do I want?” line. Converting would give each class 2 choices currently.

Ranger would be the easiest to convert, make Beastmastery an Elite, moving pet specific traits there and people can choose between useful(please) pets with extra damage and utility and a defensive/supportive spec (Druid).

But this idea comes with quite a few hurdles. Some classes would be difficult to adjust, Ranger damage would need to be buffed since the pet would be optional, potentially less build diversity to begin with, lots of developer time required to implement and probably more.

Either way, I hope they start pumping out Elite specs soon since we need a little more variety in the game. I definitely like the idea of a spirit weapon spec.

I’ve said something similiar to this multiple times on the Forums and yes, that should happen.
It would make a lot of the balancing issues easier to solve and give the core classes a bigger Impact.

I’d be all for more Stronghold maps to be honest.

As long as it comes with more Balanceupdates.

In all honesty posts like this are a sign that the core game should teach mechanis better and should have harder enemies with every 10 or so levels.

Ghede.9145:

Hi,

In S1 class stacking (several of same class in 1 Team) was so so,
in S2 way too terrible (u would usually get 2-3 of the same class in 1 team)

In Proleague class stacking is not allowed anymore afaik,
is it the same for matchmaking in S3 (ranked) now? (which would be good ..

Cheers,

Would be good for any kind of Arena-PvP.
Class-stacking is the bane of any serious balance attempts because stacking one or two classes will almost always make it too strong.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

In reality big cats like the tiger or jaguar for example are quite good at swimming and not afraid of water. So making cats terrestrial and dogs amphibious wouldn’t be more realistic.

And because underwater combat seems like an abandoned relict of the past, i doubt anet will change anything about it.

Yeah, and it’s not like we have housecats as rangers. They are all big cats from what i can tell, we even have a tiger now.

Sadly you are right about underwater combat to a point, i will say this though: They pretty much have to redo it at one point, namely when we fight the water-dragon because i don’t think there would be any good reason to have him leave his domain.

Elegie.3620:

I’m not a gaming expert, so I could be wrong, but I have the intuition that a true balance should force a player to make a choice: choose what gameplay/role you want to fulfill, build in consequence, and accept you need to sacrifice something. Either damage, control, defense, support… but not all at the same time. Natural counters would then emerge, and team effort would be properly rewarded.

That’s not just your intuition. That is how it is supposed to be.

One of the Problems though is that there are builds were, for example, you basically skill two class mechanics.
You actually have too much of a choice in some regards, and too little in others.

There are quiet some traits and skills that need a rework,
but also quiet some mechanics that need a rework.

For example, a restriction when it comes to the old class-mechanic-lines.

The Spec-System as it is has a lot of potential, the whole system used in GW2 is actually brimming with it, all the tools are there, just need to be put to better use.

PS: The example given at the start actually stems from other problems as well, such as Invigorating Torrents having no cooldown despite giving vigor in addition to regeneration.

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

Terrible idea Ventari needs outgoing healing modifiePvP.to be useful without being OP.
OFC base healing isn’t enough right now.
Energy generation is taboo.
This version of versed in stone is actually stronger.

I honestly feel that Ventari should be viable without these and he should also promote active play.
Yes, that includes legend swap as well as interrupting, he is supposed to be a support/control legend.
And if the base heal isn’t enough for anything than honestly the legend isn’t very well designed.
If the whole point is healing, which… well, seems to be the case looking at their skill, why have other traits at all? Just give us 3 choices of heal-modifier then on every single tier.

Water magic doesn’t work that way, neither does the Druid or Alchemy.

Then again, the proposed changes are after my personal experience of playing the Revenant.
I feel these things would be better for them, if not… okay.

Ventari cannot be viable without because iVentari cannot have a self heal even remotely close to tempest/druid without being OP in PvP.

Because you clearly can’t switch out of Ventari. It’s not like you have two legends.

You really can’t read can you? The problem isn’t that Ventari can’t sustain, the problem is that Ventari cannot be allowed to sustain much without making revenant into a overpowered bunker. And to heal well without increasing sustain you need something like outgoing healing. That’s why Ventari has more outgoing healing in the first place.

And by overpowered bunker I do mean overpowerd. A tempest is nothing compared to a revenant with good healing.

Also I’m not denying that currently both the outgoing healing and the self-sustain provided by Ventari are insufficient but the ratio between outgoing/self-healing seems to be almost correct.

Last note self-sustain was almost perfect during S1 but they nerfed all core components that were used during the Jan 26 patch. (Durability runes, unwavering avoidance, crystal hibernation, energy sigil) All that while buffing all the counters…

Yes, i can read, the reason i ignore your argument is this: All the modifiers in Ventari’s line are for allies, not himself.

Not a single of the mods affects himself, only others.
So honestly, my changes would help him more than simply leaving it like this because he can’t do anything to make heal affect himself more.

Besides, i don’t know about you but i like rewarding active play above giving passive boni that simply apply no matter what the situation.

The point of those modifiers IS making the healing not affect yourself and that is done for a very good reason. Devs even mentioned it during the original Ventari stream.
You might like active play but the amount of outgoing healing has to be kept the same for balance reasons.
And no you cannot read if your argument is " All the modifiers in Ventari’s line are for allies, not himself." .

Weren’t you talking bout self-sustain for quite some time?

You know what. Don’t care. You are right, i am wrong.
Tried to bring something to the plate, didn’t work.

The point of the modifiers is to allow Ventari to heal well without providing too much self sustain.
But base healing values are insatisfactory and self-sustain as a consequence.

No idea why you keep justifying yourself now, as i said:
You are right, i am wrong.
This is pretty much over.
Why change anything in Ventari’s Traits anyway if it’s basically fine and everything else would make him op.

Vukorep.3081:

sooo a druid cant be a beastmaster and a tempest cant go into arcana magic? meh, why put more limitations on build diversity

Because the current state sure is about build diversity. Tell me again, how did every chronomancer/tempest/reaper/revenant in the ESL look?
Yeah… build diversity.

People seem to confuse differentiation and limitations quite a lot in this game.
Because the first we need to get actual diversity in builds

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

Terrible idea Ventari needs outgoing healing modifiePvP.to be useful without being OP.
OFC base healing isn’t enough right now.
Energy generation is taboo.
This version of versed in stone is actually stronger.

I honestly feel that Ventari should be viable without these and he should also promote active play.
Yes, that includes legend swap as well as interrupting, he is supposed to be a support/control legend.
And if the base heal isn’t enough for anything than honestly the legend isn’t very well designed.
If the whole point is healing, which… well, seems to be the case looking at their skill, why have other traits at all? Just give us 3 choices of heal-modifier then on every single tier.

Water magic doesn’t work that way, neither does the Druid or Alchemy.

Then again, the proposed changes are after my personal experience of playing the Revenant.
I feel these things would be better for them, if not… okay.

Ventari cannot be viable without because iVentari cannot have a self heal even remotely close to tempest/druid without being OP in PvP.

Because you clearly can’t switch out of Ventari. It’s not like you have two legends.

You really can’t read can you? The problem isn’t that Ventari can’t sustain, the problem is that Ventari cannot be allowed to sustain much without making revenant into a overpowered bunker. And to heal well without increasing sustain you need something like outgoing healing. That’s why Ventari has more outgoing healing in the first place.

And by overpowered bunker I do mean overpowerd. A tempest is nothing compared to a revenant with good healing.

Also I’m not denying that currently both the outgoing healing and the self-sustain provided by Ventari are insufficient but the ratio between outgoing/self-healing seems to be almost correct.

Last note self-sustain was almost perfect during S1 but they nerfed all core components that were used during the Jan 26 patch. (Durability runes, unwavering avoidance, crystal hibernation, energy sigil) All that while buffing all the counters…

Yes, i can read, the reason i ignore your argument is this: All the modifiers in Ventari’s line are for allies, not himself.

Not a single of the mods affects himself, only others.
So honestly, my changes would help him more than simply leaving it like this because he can’t do anything to make heal affect himself more.

Besides, i don’t know about you but i like rewarding active play above giving passive boni that simply apply no matter what the situation.

The point of those modifiers IS making the healing not affect yourself and that is done for a very good reason. Devs even mentioned it during the original Ventari stream.
You might like active play but the amount of outgoing healing has to be kept the same for balance reasons.
And no you cannot read if your argument is " All the modifiers in Ventari’s line are for allies, not himself." .

Weren’t you talking bout self-sustain for quite some time?

You know what. Don’t care. You are right, i am wrong.
Tried to bring something to the plate, didn’t work.

Nike.2631:

Lets see… not a single new weapon type in 3.5 years and the Elite Specializations system is built around letting them use and even reuse existing weapons to bring new skills to the 9 professions (i.e. a future Mesmer Elite spec could offer the shield again just with new skills and a different theme than the Chronomancer).

Tomes have been discussed by Devs… as KITS, another way they can bring new weapons into play without having to deal with the ever growing skins issue.

They could introduce new weapons, but they’ve got a lot of other avenues they can pursue while still growing the game’s options.

Sorry.

Except they said themselves that they want to add in new weapons in the future with new expansions as the current weapontypes are nice but limited and can’t be switched around forever.

PopeUrban.2578:

On the one hand, it would make a lot of sense from the mechanics side of things if the “core mechanic” line was a specialization.

This would allow massive changes in the resource mechanics of professions through elite specs, imagine completely replacing thief initiative or warrior rage. This could only work if only one trait line directly influenced that system. You’d have Trickery for thieves being the only line that modified/addressed initiative for instance, so that you could swap it out with another mechanic with, say, “gunslinger” and “ammo” in stead.

However!

The classes aren’t really designed this way. Most classes have their core mechanic altered or modified by multiple lines. in order to really get a good, balanced version of “core line as an elite spec” you’d have to massively rework almost every trait line in the game to support that system.

Not only that, but it wouldn’t make balancing elite specs that much different, and it would actively hurt build diversity by giving people less overall combinations in total.

I think the elite spec system is good and a nice way to easily balance adding “subclass” mechanics compared to the nightmare balance of the GW1 dual class system, but I don’t think there’s much to be gained by adding this restriction when the plan is that all elite specs are balanced with potential access to all of the core lines anyway.

The problem is that apparently the restrictions that we have aren’t enough to bring the elite-specs in line with the core classes, especially because they have access to the core-mechanic-line as well.

We are currently in a balance nightmare like the GW1 dual class system.
It’s not as bad as it was back in the day but it’s a close second and that sucks.

Again, this is only a proposal, an idea.
It’s not completely thought through, it’s maybe not even a good idea but it’s more than has been done by A-Net so far to make us feel good about the core classes again.

Even if more and more elite-specs show up, this shouldn’t mean that the core classes get left behind.
They are part of the game and should feel like it.

Hell, a lot of things could even be fixed with a few simple number changes (Virtue of Justice (active) could give 2-3 stacks of burning per ally-attack instead of 1) or a rework of a few skills (like the core Deathshroud).

PS: This is not to say that i dislike the Spec-System. I like the idea quite a lot, i really do, but just because i like something doesn’t mean i have to hold back criticism on actual flaws.

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

Terrible idea Ventari needs outgoing healing modifiePvP.to be useful without being OP.
OFC base healing isn’t enough right now.
Energy generation is taboo.
This version of versed in stone is actually stronger.

I honestly feel that Ventari should be viable without these and he should also promote active play.
Yes, that includes legend swap as well as interrupting, he is supposed to be a support/control legend.
And if the base heal isn’t enough for anything than honestly the legend isn’t very well designed.
If the whole point is healing, which… well, seems to be the case looking at their skill, why have other traits at all? Just give us 3 choices of heal-modifier then on every single tier.

Water magic doesn’t work that way, neither does the Druid or Alchemy.

Then again, the proposed changes are after my personal experience of playing the Revenant.
I feel these things would be better for them, if not… okay.

Ventari cannot be viable without because iVentari cannot have a self heal even remotely close to tempest/druid without being OP in PvP.

Because you clearly can’t switch out of Ventari. It’s not like you have two legends.

You really can’t read can you? The problem isn’t that Ventari can’t sustain, the problem is that Ventari cannot be allowed to sustain much without making revenant into a overpowered bunker. And to heal well without increasing sustain you need something like outgoing healing. That’s why Ventari has more outgoing healing in the first place.

And by overpowered bunker I do mean overpowerd. A tempest is nothing compared to a revenant with good healing.

Also I’m not denying that currently both the outgoing healing and the self-sustain provided by Ventari are insufficient but the ratio between outgoing/self-healing seems to be almost correct.

Last note self-sustain was almost perfect during S1 but they nerfed all core components that were used during the Jan 26 patch. (Durability runes, unwavering avoidance, crystal hibernation, energy sigil) All that while buffing all the counters…

Yes, i can read, the reason i ignore your argument is this: All the modifiers in Ventari’s line are for allies, not himself.

Not a single of the mods affects himself, only others.
So honestly, my changes would help him more than simply leaving it like this because he can’t do anything to make heal affect himself more.

Besides, i don’t know about you but i like rewarding active play above giving passive boni that simply apply no matter what the situation.

Varezenem.2813:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Varezenem.2813:

Terrible idea Ventari needs outgoing healing modifiePvP.to be useful without being OP.
OFC base healing isn’t enough right now.
Energy generation is taboo.
This version of versed in stone is actually stronger.

I honestly feel that Ventari should be viable without these and he should also promote active play.
Yes, that includes legend swap as well as interrupting, he is supposed to be a support/control legend.
And if the base heal isn’t enough for anything than honestly the legend isn’t very well designed.
If the whole point is healing, which… well, seems to be the case looking at their skill, why have other traits at all? Just give us 3 choices of heal-modifier then on every single tier.

Water magic doesn’t work that way, neither does the Druid or Alchemy.

Then again, the proposed changes are after my personal experience of playing the Revenant.
I feel these things would be better for them, if not… okay.

Ventari cannot be viable without because iVentari cannot have a self heal even remotely close to tempest/druid without being OP in PvP.

Because you clearly can’t switch out of Ventari. It’s not like you have two legends.

Varezenem.2813:

Terrible idea Ventari needs outgoing healing modifiers to be useful without being OP.
OFC base healing isn’t enough right now.
Energy generation is taboo.
This version of versed in stone is actually stronger.

I honestly feel that Ventari should be viable without these and he should also promote active play.
Yes, that includes legend swap as well as interrupting, he is supposed to be a support/control legend.
And if the base heal isn’t enough for anything than honestly the legend isn’t very well designed.
If the whole point is healing, which… well, seems to be the case looking at their skill, why have other traits at all? Just give us 3 choices of heal-modifier then on every single tier.

Water magic doesn’t work that way, neither does the Druid or Alchemy.

Then again, the proposed changes are after my personal experience of playing the Revenant.
I feel these things would be better for them, if not… okay.

Uhm… Boon-Stripping is random as far as i know, same with condi removal.

Did you Train the reaper line and equip it?

I honestly feel that Invocation as well as Salvation need a few better traits.

Invocation doesn’t quite feel like a class mechanic and Salvation has 4 traits regarding heal output.

Invigorating Flow: Remove this. At least remove it’s mechanic. The heal on this is not worth it in the long. I wan’t to be honest hear: This should rather give you energy on evade, successful evade probably.

Empty Vessel: Make the stunbreak on legendary swap base. The class on a whole would benefit. What to make this instead?
Simple: Legendary swap gives you 25 additional energy.
My reason for this is simple: If you use Jallis elite for example you are basically useless for a few seconds. This would ensure that you can still do a little afterwards.

Charged Mists: This probably should get a rework too, as it is this trait is not really helpful. I’m honestly not sure what to do with this one, maybe a damage boost after legend swap or give the buff under other circumstances.

Salvation:

Tranquil Balance: Rework. For example: Interrupting an enemy triggers a small heal around you.

Invoking Harmony: Legend Swap removes a buff from surrounding enemies. This may sound weird in this line but Ventary is supposedly about leveling the playing field and pacification. In a way it would fit.

Retribution

Versed in Stone: This trait is… problematic. While Rite of the Great Dwarf is nice it shouldn’t also be a direct Counter to condition damage in my opinion. Not in the way this does at the Moment at least.
I’d rather see this removing 2 conditions from affected allies on use, so it would take inspiration from Soothing Stone, Jallis’ selfheal.
Maybe remove the auto-use as well but give it: Return energy per affected ally.
To make it more worthwhile.

Corruption

Replenishing Despair: This… is really hurt by it’s cooldown. Now removing that would be too strong.
Simply healing more wouldn’t help much either. It could buff selfheal skills, giving it more synergy with other legends as well, triggering two or three torment stacks around you on selfheal use.

Venom Enhancement: Probably should either get it’s cooldown cut down significally or simply apply more poison on Trigger.

Maniacal Persistance: Rework this: not having speced in precision in a line about crits shouldn’t be rewarded. Landing a critical hit grants you a stacking buff to condition damage. Small CD, buff lasts 5 seconds.

I’d also change Nefarious Momentum from Devastation but as i have no good idea i only mention it as it has little to no good use.

Anyway… these would be my changes to the lines.