Guild Wars 2

Norn Warrior in the house.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?

If the curve is shallow, wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?

No, and the question is a simple one. And, if answered honestly, will solve the problem of understanding vertical progression and it’s impact on the game.

Care to illustrate how the answer is no? Because the way I’m seeing the power curve, the point where the top tier now will become mandatory to continue playing is on the scale of years.

Gladly, a slow grind doesn’t make the question irrelevant, it just means it will take longer to realize. We truly don’t know the scale at this point and you don’t need a scale to answer the question. Can you answer it honestly?

The answer is yes, but you have to be honest that if that point takes years to reach, and that point is moving in step with the gear curve, you will never actually reach that point unless you stop playing the game entirely.

If your point is vertical progression hurts people who aren’t playing the game for years at a time, you’re right, but no one’s arguing that fact.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?

If the curve is shallow, wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?

No, and the question is a simple one. And, if answered honestly, will solve the problem of understanding vertical progression and it’s impact on the game.

Care to illustrate how the answer is no? Because the way I’m seeing the power curve, the point where the top tier now will become mandatory to continue playing is on the scale of years.

Raine.1394:

Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?

If the curve is shallow , wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?

You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.

I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.

yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.

I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.

and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes

Raine figures that only he/she understands game design and everyone who disagrees with him/her couldn’t possibly understand it on the same level, or else they’d agree.

He/she mistakes his/her limits of vision for the limits of the world.

This is an example of an ad hominem. It usually occurs at the end of debate when one party runs out of intellectual gas and resorts to personal attacks. Let me help you out here. Simply take an assertion that I have made and show me why or how it is wrong. This is how the forum game is played. It’s a lot like ping pong. The balls in your court.

Proxy is doing a fine job of more eloquently stating the arguments that I have had against your severely limited idea of what vertical progression can and can’t be.

If you need more posts on why I think you’re wrong, please read my post history.

My statement was based on your attitude around the forum and the fact that you refuse to even consider a position different to your own. Hardly ad hominem.

proxy.7963:

AwwGee.5628:

Pustulio.8207:

The difference doesn’t matter. You can beat this game in “greens” with little to NO problem. That ALONE, makes it optional.

It does. This is not subjective and based on opinion, it is objective and fact. with 1 more power I will deal 1 more damage than the guy next to me if he were doing everything the same. Simple as that.

By your reasoning everything is optional. You can enter dungeons at level 2 no problem, go ahead. You don’t even need to wear armor for anything. Troll away

The statistical increase is objective, but the necessity is not. This is a point that many of those who are stating that Ascended gear is ‘optional’ are trying to get to. At current, the statistical bonuses are not required to complete or take part in any content in the game, and your drive to remain effective is largely subjective and dependant on the things you find enjoyable in the game. You can play WvWvW in Whites and still enjoy it if you don’t mind the knowledge that many other people will have a greater statistical advantage over you. Remaining competitive is an option, and many have weighed the effort of acquiring Ascended gear against the benefits it can bring and decided that it’s not for them. I apologise if I’m not explaining this in a way that can’t be considered a ‘troll’, but many of us play games for different reasons. And if you don’t mind the knowledge that you’ll probably die, you can certainly attempt a dungeon naked and at level 2. I don’t really see how accepting that people enjoy different things is a ‘troll’.

Personally, I don’t much care for Ascended gear, and I likely won’t until I’m forced to; I’m currently not forced to. But if I pick up a piece or two via dailies and whatnot, that’s fine with me. I don’t care about being competitive, because nothing I enjoy demands I care, and nothing I’ve seen so far suggests that I ever will truly care.

This is my stance on the gear, almost to the letter. I don’t care that I’m 5% “behind” the top if it doesn’t keep me from playing whatever content I want.

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?

You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.

I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.

yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.

I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.

and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes

Raine figures that only he/she understands game design and everyone who disagrees with him/her couldn’t possibly understand it on the same level, or else they’d agree.

He/she mistakes his/her limits of vision for the limits of the world.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

They are bringing new rewards for WvW this month, maybe even a way to acquire Ascended gear without leaving WvW? We’ll have to wait and see about that.

Wait and see. Wait and see. We hear that every day, but can we really afford to wait? If it all goes at the current speed, we’ll get the all (or not even all) avenues of getting ascended gear right when the next tier is rolled out. And then everything will start again from scratch.

How are you so sure there’s going to be a next tier and not just better rarities of infusions?

Levetty.1279:

Mackdose.6504:

Open your eyes, you’ll see, your eyes are open.

I get what you are trying to do and wish it would work but not, this is a brony bow.

It’s called the dreamer, it’s a robot unicorn attack reference.

Open your eyes, you’ll see, your eyes are open.

Aven.7295:

the gear system is fine, i just wish they had done with less levels so more content would have been “End game”

100% agreed, but from what the roadmap looks like, we’re in for a ton of content coming down the pipe.

marnick.4305:

Mackdose.6504:

marnick.4305:

And yet, this is not what people want. The succesful model this game was marketed to follows was:

Guild Wars 1’s Power “Curve” (HP)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 2: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 3: = 1 2 3 4 5

This is not what I gleaned from the 2010, 2011, or 2012 marketing, but I’ve noticed that everyone expecting a completely flat gear plateau were 100% GW1 players. I knew from the first beta that was not the case.
I played GW1 (for about 8 months per campaign) and the stagnant gear was one of my biggest gripes. Apparently Anet agreed.

First of, you can’t glance such things from a beta ending at level 30.

Multiple gear rarities? Higher level cap? That’s vertical progression right there.

Second, a.net agreeing with you shows just how disastrous a vocal minority can be for a company.

The “stagnant” gear in GW1 was is greatest feature. It was the unique selling point for the game. I still hope I can say the same about GW2 in a few years. Sure it’ll take time to get full ascended but once you have it, your character is really done.

It feels good to complete a toon. In GW1 you could really beat the game. That’s a unique feature amongst MMOs.

It’s not a feature of MMOs. GW1 wasn’t an MMO, it was a mission based co-op RPG with a fancy lobby system.

I’m not some VP elitist who’s clamoring for more items to separate haves from have nots. I quit WoW because I was tired of the constant rollout of crap that punished me for having a job and social life.

Guild Wars 2 has not punished me for these things because there is no “falling behind.”

I’m being cautiously optimistic that Anet can pull off having VP in the game without alienating non-hardcore types from end-game content. I’m praising the fact that their design is basically destroying the negatives of vertical progression, giving people goals without limiting options.

I can’t believe people are actually against this philosophy.

I’m so happy the micro stutter is gone, even with the lower average frames.

marnick.4305:

And yet, this is not what people want. The succesful model this game was marketed to follows was:

Guild Wars 1’s Power “Curve” (HP)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 2: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 3: = 1 2 3 4 5

This is not what I gleaned from the 2010, 2011, or 2012 marketing, but I’ve noticed that everyone expecting a completely flat gear plateau were 100% GW1 players. I knew from the first beta that was not the case.
I played GW1 (for about 8 months per campaign) and the stagnant gear was one of my biggest gripes. Apparently Anet agreed.

I agree with you.

But I think having shallow gear progression that doesn’t invalidate previous rarities constitutes “pay to work” or a mandatory gear grind. Especially when the time frame for acquiring the gear is so long.

Hello,

I read a lot of people on this forum arguing about Vertical vs Horizontal progression. more specifically, how they can’t co-exist. I disagree that this is the case, due to the shallow power curve ArenaNet is using for the stats on gear.

The following “graphs” will serve as an illustration of my point.

The Y axis represents the time (in years) that the gear is viable for all content.
The X axis represents the relative power of gear and its difficulty to obtain.

Guild Wars 2’s Power “Curve” (Hybrid HP+VP)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 2: = 2 3 4 5 6
Year 3: = 3 4 5 6 7

WoW’s Power Curve (Traditional Vertical Progression)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 5
Year 2: = 10 12 14 16
Year 3: = 24 28 32 36

As you can see, in previous VP models, the higher sets of gear vastly out performed it’s previous item levels, even in the same year/expansion. With new gear roll outs every 4-6 months, if you fell off the treadmill you became noticeably sub-par.

ArenaNet seems to understand this pitfall, choosing instead to use a much lower rise in power over time. Combined with its combat system that rewards skill use on the fly rather than skill use on rotation, this makes for a less noticeable (but still satisfying) difference between gear sets. This allows 2 things:

1. Gear of various rarity (but same level req.) can compete with each other without the feeling insignificant.
2. Content can be balanced for Exotic gear and all gear from masterwork to ascended is viable, and no content is gated by gear checks until high fractals.

Going forward

I’m not privy to what’s ahead, if Anet decides in 2014 to raise the level cap and introduce 10 levels of blue/green/yellow/orange/pink, I hope they choose to flatten the gear curve substantially compared to the difference between 70-80, relying on base stats for the power increase. This will keep old gear from becoming immediately obsolete (stat-wise only, transmutation keeps them from becoming entirely useless).

Ideally, I’d like (level 80) Ascended to be the gear cap, with masterwork, rare, exotic infusions being the level 90 “gear increase.” I believe this would mark the successful hybridization of Horizontal and Vertical Progression.

DocHolliday.5921:

rgrwng.4072:

Zeus CM.1692:

30 Laurels per Amulet is too much. You can get only 1 per month wtf… + infusions extra month.

but it gives longevity to playing, i suppose. if the daily gave you ~900 laurels, you could have everything you wanted sooner, thus getting bored quicker, because you have everything in a few minutes.

i am normally all-for getting stuff cheap and early (though i kind of pace myself), and have made peace with the current laurel prices. i just hope the prices don’t INCREASE with all of the griping about laurels.

> get it while the gettin’s good

You’re totally missing the point. Guild Wars isn’t supposed to be about spending lots of time acquiring gear based on stats, yet that’s exactly what Ascended gear is. You can’t even see the gear on characters. You should literally be able to walk up to a vendor and buy these things for 2 gold each. That’s how the first GW worked, and that’s how they led us to believe GW2 would work.

The ONLY gear “upgrade” in all of GW that you could do that couldn’t be bought with money was infusion, which was a lot like infusion in GW2, in that it reduced the damage you took from a special enemy ability called “spectral agony”. The difference, however, was that infusion involved running one special quest inside an instance that took about 15 minutes in an average group, and then your whole set of armor was infused. And even that could be bought with gold by paying someone to run you to the turn-in for infusion.

GW1 wasn’t a grind for gear, but there sure as hell was a grind for skills.

DocHolliday.5921:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

In the end for the average player as in WoW you spend ALL your time simply grinding better gear and no time actually just doing whatever the hell you want. And all the signs are there that this is what they have planned for GW2.

I figure I fall into the “average” category as an ex-wow junkie who burnt out from the gear treadmill (a real gear treadmill, not some philosophical potential for one). I play about 10 hours a week, maybe.

I see no reason to spend my time “grinding” better gear than my exotics. I don’t play high-level fractals, and I can do any part of the game I please. There’s no incentive to grind the max gear besides the fact that it has higher stats. Those higher stats are negligible to me.

Now, why do higher stats matter to you?

Really? Seriously? I’m not even going to bother copy-pasting. READ my previous post. I already answered that.

Except you didn’t, you explained how it affects “gameplay” and how it affects “the average player” but not how it affects you personally, which is what I was asking.

DocHolliday.5921:

In the end for the average player as in WoW you spend ALL your time simply grinding better gear and no time actually just doing whatever the hell you want. And all the signs are there that this is what they have planned for GW2.

I figure I fall into the “average” category as an ex-wow junkie who burnt out from the gear treadmill (a real gear treadmill, not some philosophical potential for one). I play about 10 hours a week, maybe.

I see no reason to spend my time “grinding” better gear than my exotics. I don’t play high-level fractals, and I can do any part of the game I please. There’s no incentive to grind the max gear besides the fact that it has higher stats. Those higher stats are negligible to me.

Now, why do higher stats matter to you?

DocHolliday.5921:

For me, it basically boils down to this. They have about 6 months (maybe less) to fix the fiasco with Ascended gear. And that basically means making Ascended gear as easy-to-obtain as needed for proper non-grindy horizontal progression. Or in other words, about as easy to get as max-stat gear was in GW:Prophecies. Otherwise, I’m gone. This current BS is not what I was promised and not what I signed up for. If they want more of my money then they need to deliver what they advertised.

Why is max-stat gear so important to you when it by and large doesn’t affect your gameplay in the slightest?

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

I have never played an MMO that punished you for having non-BiS gear. In WoW you can see all the content in greens. GW2 is not distinctive at all for the not penalizing you for not having BiS items. The only gating that occurs is in dungeons post level cap. And, we have that same gating in FotM. You are not going to waltz into FotM lvl 30 without showing your agony card at the door. The gating in GW2 is by gear just as in WoW.

You could not raid in greens, raids in WoW were the definition of PvE content. You absolutely could not see all content in greens. QED.

You can’t say “they both have post-level cap gating” when in GW2 I can see literally all content (difficulty != content) before the gate becomes a factor, where in WoW to even step foot in specific instances, you had to reach a specific level of gear.

Any experienced gamer would see the difference.

You really can’t read the manifesto plainly and come away with the distinctions you are making; the distinctions must first be made up. The language of the manifesto is clear to any experienced gamer.

I contend that your interpretation of the design manifesto is off-base, because in my opinion the game has kept the manifesto intact.

I’m not forced to grind anything to participate and be relevant; ergo any vertical progression is optional. I don’t care that I’m not stat-capped because the cap doesn’t matter.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

WoW has the same definition of PvE content as GW2. In WoW the open world is content that you quest through. There are dungeons accessible as you level and dungeons accessible at max level in your questing greens and blues. Raiding simply followed the process of gearing up throughout the game. It’s called vertical progression and it’s what is present in WoW and now what they have confirmed we have in GW2. In FotM we see the gated content beginning with the fractal levels. Just sit in LA and watch map chat to see the gating in action.

I see you are unfamiliar with vertical progression. It can be represented by an integer series:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5…n,

where the integers represent new tiers of gear with a corresponding increase in power level. While the difference between tier 1 and 2 may be small, by definition there will be a point at which you can no longer play the game in your tier 1 gear. This is simply what vertical progression is and does.

WoW has vertical progression and post 11/15 GW2 has vertical progression.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

Guild Wars 2 had vertical progression since inception. Evidence? Different stat allocation for rarities, 80 levels.

Now here’s where the compromise between HP and VP comes in:

Attainability
Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: 1 2 3 4 5 are viable for all content
Year 2: 2 3 4 5 6 are viable for all content
Year 3: 3 4 5 6 7 are viable for all content

So over 3 years of time, gear 5 is still viable for content, meaning that the VP doesn’t hinder the vast majority of players, even casual players (like myself). This is what a low power curve allows for.

Now I’m guessing your argument is that this still makes gear obsolete. You’d be right except for the fact you can transmog skins, meaning the gear is still desirable to players who like the look of the gear, down-scaling enables the gear to still be a challenge to obtain.

Stats aren’t the end-all be-all in this game, stop acting like they are.

Zerbo.5381:

I’m also trying to justify it Mackdose, and you came up with some interesting ideas. But honestly, I don’t think they’re putting much thought into it unless it’s a strategy to give people a greater incentive to play future material. Some of these stat combos make absolutely no sense. And considering they implement new gear that doesn’t even work (giver’s) and then don’t bother to change it, I sometimes wonder if they know what the hell they’re even doing when it comes to gear stats.

Not trying to justify it per se, I’m just trying to wrap my head around where this falls in the design of the game.

What are they trying to encourage/discourage?
Does this have larger implications for future content?
Are they trying to add value without removing the value of existing pieces/builds/gameplay?
What are these changes meant to solve/mitigate/improve?

I try to look at changes through that lens.

Tinybel.3847:

Fact is though only a small portion of the player base ever stepped foot into there
not to mention anything beyond.

Right, because the content was gated gear-wise, and getting 40 (geared) people for a raid
was difficult. This didn’t only apply to Vanilla, it lasted all the way into cataclysm.

You could say once you seen all fractals you’ve seen all the content. But that’s just cause Anet took the easiest way out with the increasing difficulty. Also i would say not that many people in GW2 step into fractals 20+.

The “easiest way out” also allows Anet to let its playerbase play the fractal content without being gated. This is a good thing.

Oh and anet decided difficulty is their contend progression in fractals so difficulty = content. You can chose not to take part in it….. you could chose not to raid in wow.

It’s not content progression, it’s difficulty progression. You’re not playing anything “new,” just playing a harder version of it. I do choose to not take part in it until I have a group who’s willing to sit down and learn the game.

Difference between WoW’s gear-gated content and Gw2’s gear-gated content is that GW2’s gate doesn’t start until well after you’ve seen all of the fractal content.

Marxo.3829:

Also people are missing some of the familiar exotic stat combinations like knight, cleric, carrion and rampager.

This makes me wonder if it’s intentional, like they’re trying to discourage min/max in favor of making the choice between more power OR more precision OR toughness, etc.

Perhaps they’re figuring sub-optimal choices make for interesting game play?

Or perhaps they’re leaving the main stat combos for exotics, so that the ascended gear isn’t a hard and fast replacement for an optimized exotic build. This makes more sense.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

I have never played an MMO that punished you for having non-BiS gear. In WoW you can see all the content in greens. GW2 is not distinctive at all for the not penalizing you for not having BiS items. The only gating that occurs is in dungeons post level cap. And, we have that same gating in FotM. You are not going to waltz into FotM lvl 30 without showing your agony card at the door. The gating in GW2 is by gear just as in WoW.

You could not raid in greens, raids in WoW were the definition of PvE content. You absolutely could not see all content in greens. QED.

You can’t say “they both have post-level cap gating” when in GW2 I can see literally all content (difficulty != content) before the gate becomes a factor, where in WoW to even step foot in specific instances, you had to reach a specific level of gear.

Any experienced gamer would see the difference.

You really can’t read the manifesto plainly and come away with the distinctions you are making; the distinctions must first be made up. The language of the manifesto is clear to any experienced gamer.

I contend that your interpretation of the design manifesto is off-base, because in my opinion the game has kept the manifesto intact.

I’m not forced to grind anything to participate and be relevant; ergo any vertical progression is optional. I don’t care that I’m not stat-capped because the cap doesn’t matter.

I can’t spell this out any simpler for you.

As a warrior you want to focus on toughness over vitality. Warriors have the highest base health, so vitality (which gives you health directly) is less valuable.

Place points into the Defense, Tactics, and Strength for Hammer/GS or axe/shield. This provides good survivability with great damage.

DocHolliday.5921:

The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.

I’d like to point out that the game as advertised has not changed. The “no grind” line people like to refer to so often did not mean “no grind for the best in slot gear.”

That is an expectation that carried over from GW1.

What they actually said when you take the rest of the manifesto/design goals in context is that there’s no grind to see all of the game’s content. You are never punished by the game for having non-bis gear. This is an important and irrefutable fact.

This particular point is what made me interested in GW2 as my replacement MMO over WoW, LotRO and Age of Conan.

I thought the Q&A was quite good. Colin answered clearly, if only talking high-level roadmap-level details for most of it. You could clearly tell where the studio is focused based on how much he could divulge on a given topic.

Goettel.4389:

Having your name displayed to enemies in PvP as a reward would be great, i.e. you have to “earn a name for yourself” in battle – before that you’re just fodder, which is as it should be.

What I’d like to see even more is a tier of titles which express something about your playstyle.

For example, someone who tends to have a strong focus on leading others towards objectives could earn a title which instantly broadcasts to friendly players that this is someone with experience leading, which would probably make them more willing to group up and follow ‘orders’. At the same time, it would broadcast a greater importance as a single target to the enemy. Both these effects would strenghten group play.

As an another example, a player skilled at making solo infiltration runs (by e.g. ninja capping) could earn a title like Spy, which broadcasts to friendly playerw that this player prefers to go it alone so maybe isn’t a good choice to team up with, and marks him for special attention by the enemy. Introduce something like “Spy hunter” next…etc.

Great talk BTW !

Edit: spelling.

Have prefixes assigned to your invader/defender server tag in WvW:

Veteran, Elite, Champion, Legendary

Bonus points if they come with the colored frames.

Hate on the internet? NAAHHHHH.

Sweet. Good to see all that network programming has finally paid off.

I’ll throw my hat in the “We need more interesting enemy AI” category.

If we had more NPC packs ala GW1, we’d see much more interesting decisions to be made in the open world. In BWE1, the AI was fine because the mobs wanted to kill you and even better, they could do so easily. Now that enemies don’t do much in the way of damage, you can stand there mashing autoattack.

I’ve gone around this issue while leveling by moving to higher level zones (5-10 levels higher) and it’s pretty fun. On my 80 however, I don’t have that option. I can get 6 or 7 risen to attack me and have a good time, but single, double, or triple pulls end with me melting the mobs quickly.

If the mobs had more “avoid this or get punished” moves, or if a pack of 3 were programmed well enough to use their signature moves together (1 mob uses cripple to have a big mob knockdown while a caster mob drops a nuke where you land, immobilizing you to setup again) I think it would make for a much more entertaining experience.

proxy.7963:

If the power curve being mentioned is so shallow that I can play the game I enjoy and progress on the curve without noticing it – if the design and the mechanics are solid enough that I can simply play the game and have the game subtly guide me along the curve, then I don’t think that has to be a negative thing. But the trick’s in the subtleties.

Quoted by being my exact thoughts on this topic.

It’s up to the devs to design the game to guide us (non-grind types) along the gear curve through playing, not grinding, and it’s so far, so good. (Unless you must have infused ascended gear, in which case enjoy your grind. I’ll be off having fun instead.)

Why can’t I hold all of this hype? I’m quite excited to see how ArenaNet handles the next three months.

Now it’s time to temper my hype with a healthy dose of caution and adjusted expectations:

Will we see an effective implementation of rewards for the open world that aren’t loot drops? Will this actually motivate players of all levels to visit non-80 areas?

Will events start cascading over zones in a more meaningful way than statue auras?

Anyone else have some hype-tempering discussion that is on the side of cautiously optimistic?

critickitten.1498:

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve read this a couple times, where are you getting the information that the players just up and left?

Well, it’s all circumstantial of course, but….

• The number of players who admitted to quitting in these forums and others.
• A significantly drop-off in player count on some sites, such as Xfire.
• More and more complaints about empty servers.

And their sales figures are also much lower, so there aren’t as many new players buying the game (mostly due to bad press and bad word of mouth from those in these forums and/or those who have left).

There is no concrete evidence that people have left, this is true. However I think it’s ridiculous for anyone to actually believe that GW2’s numbers are as high as they were at launch by this point in time, especially given the large promotional sale GW2 did for the holidays to try and entice new players. This is generally the point in time when most MMOs experience a significant exodus anyways, as demonstrated by Rift, TERA, and SWTOR before this.

According to VG charts, in retail distribution (not direct from buy.guildwars2.com) The game is holding steady at ~10k sales/per mo. after its initial surge.

That’s not bad considering it’s amazon and brick n mortar.

Raine.1394:

And,. if you are referring to the first pass in terms of the introduction of vertical progression through Ascended gear in FotM they have admitted that it was a huge blunder. I know bang-up and blunder are both ‘B’ words but they can’t be used interchangeably. FotM probably does give us a good idea of the scale of the grind, i.e., the amount of effort required to chase the stat inflation. They felt that the locus of the grind was a mistake and they now intend to locate the grind closer to where players want to play.

I’m not referring to the FoTM specifically, no. I’m speaking about the game as a whole. The bang-up job I’m referring to is the undeniable fact that all content is open to me without getting anywhere near the gear ceiling.

First passes usually contain mistakes, like the implementation of Ascended items in FoTM only.

Please knock off the condescension, it makes you look like a skritthead.

Raine.1394:

You can postpone the grind if the power curve is low, but there will come a point where you will be a level 60 character trying to run around in Orr. That’s not my assumption by the way, that’s simply what vertical progression is and does. All you need to do to understand that is understand what vertical refers to (power level) and means and what the word progression means.

Judging by the power curve we have now, we’re not seeing the point to where current exotics are going to be the equivalent to the level 60 in Orr for several years.

This is an example of mitigating the negatives to VP. I’m not saying VP doesn’t have flaws, I don’t play WoW anymore because I don’t have the time to keep up with the gear curve. GW2 fits my playing style much better and I’m relieved that I could likely walk away from GW2 for 6 months, come back and still be relevant to the content.

Will I have to play content to gear up to the top gear slots? Yes. If I want to.

Do I find that bothersome? No. YMMV.

This is why I’m not up in arms about the addition (extension, counting leveling) of VP. I like having long term goals, I enjoy playing content at my own pace, and I like the fact that there’s a carrot to chase for a noticeable but not mandatory stat gain.

As long as I am not gated from content by rule of not having full ascended, I’m okay with the VP. The moment that changes by virtue of game mechanics as opposed to raised level cap, I’ll be chewing on Anet with the rest of the anti-VP crowd.

I hope you understand my stance a bit better.

Tiger.7506:

We need a slight vertical progression!

You’ve got one. Enjoy your fractals.

Raine.1394:

You can say that a treadmill that turns slowly is preferable to a treadmill that turns rapidly. And, I’ll agree with you. What you can’t disagree with is what I said in the post you have replied to. (I’m not going to repeat it.) It’s not about being black and white, it’s a matter of logical coherence.

Here’s what I’m trying to say:

We’ve defined vertical progression’s problems. Now it’s up to the designers to mitigate or eliminate them while still giving the VP players the option of VP without diminishing or alienating the HP players.

You say this cannot be done due to the nature of VP. Why?

I think Anet has done a bang-up job for a first pass.

Raine.1394:

It is, of course, an oxymoronic sentence. Vertical progression is how you instantiate a gear grind. You can’t have vertical progression with zero grind. Maybe he’s talking about a treadmill that turns so slowly you hardly notice it. If FotM is any indication of the nature of the grind, it will be anything but ‘zero’. But at least it’s a clear statement that we will have vertical progression.

Clearly the designers and you have a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes zero grind.

Playing the game shouldn’t be simplified to “grinding,” but you refer to leveling as a “forced grind” in other threads. This makes me think that any game play that has stat-increasing rewards at the end is a “grind.”

Care to elaborate on your definition of grind so that we understand where you’re coming from?

Distaste.4801:

Gw2’s progression is the same as WoW’s because numbers go up.

Wow. Great argument there.

Never mind all the rest of the mechanics that don’t line up with the design of WoW’s vertical progression.

Astralporing.1957:

DevilLordLaser.8619:

I love how none of these threads remember the intense caterwauling that was going on prior to the fuzzy-kittened Fractals update absolutely demanding more gear progression, more endgame, more gated content, MOAR VEE PEE. That particular litter of kittens was just as bad as the Ascended complaints are.

We had our mostly-horizontal game, the idiots on the forum harshed ArenaNet like crazy over it, so we got Fractals. Were Fractals a good idea? Not really, no. Was Ascended gear a good idea? No. Did ArenaNet botch the bejeezus out of it and earn every inch of the fan backlash. Yes. Was the introduction of Fractals, Ascended gear, and all that entitled all y’all’s own dang fault?

YES. YES IT WAS.

Lesson: be careful what you wish for (and by wish, I mean demand in an aggressive and impolite manner or threaten to LEAVE 4EVERZ), because you just might bloody well get it.

Except of course fot the tiny fact you overlooked, that people that “asked for it” are different people than those that are put off by Ascended eq. And they are even no longer playing (most of them left long before November 15th).

So no, we got something that people that are no longer playing that game wished for. No wonder we don’t like it.

I’ve read this a couple times, where are you getting the information that the players just up and left?

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

Ascended does not equal treadmill. Vertical progression equals treadmill. Consider the words making up the concept of game design. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it continually increases over time. The concept is not difficult to understand, nor are its implications. It is, by definition, a gear grind treadmill.

This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

The devs have said we will have vertical progression in the game moving forward. What is incontrovertibly true is that WoW has vertical progression and now GW2 has vertical progression. GW2 might have a treadmill that moves slower than WoW’s. That remains to be seen. But, WoW = GW2 with respect to actually having a treadmill.

The difference that you’re ignoring is that WoW’s is an exponential increase in power. This is how WoW gates content.

The low power curve, in conjunction with the combat mechanics, is not something you can dismiss. It’s the primary reason why the vertical progression in this game isn’t a treadmill in the same vein as WoW. These things aren’t as black and white as you’d have us believe.

CoRtex.2157:

Mackdose.6504:

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

You need max armor to be sure you don’t get 1 hitted unless it’s a boss mechanic that you can dodge because of your knowledge. That’s the main role of MAX armor. What decides if max armor is vertical or horizontal is the way you get it. Not the way it’s being used.

False, I ran all paths of AC in blues and greens my first time out. You don’t require max gear to not get owned by mobs. you just need to not get hit by the mobs.

This is why the treadmill argument fails, this is not some spreadsheet-based combat like WoW, this combat relies on the skill of the player to not get hit.

Higher stats may mean more damage, but you have to be alive to deal that damage.

CoRtex.2157:

Dude… i did cof for the first time, it was a speed-clear, i had no idea what to do.. We did it in 15min… You can probably do dungeons naked. And that’s just wrong from arenanet because in a game where you have max gear, it actually needs a purpose. Else stuff is just face-roll and boring.

So wait, do you want horizontal (gear means nothing) or vertical (gear means something up to a point where monsters gain stat parity*, then means nothing)?

*This is a flawed argument in a game that uses mechanics to murder you ruthlessly, stats don’t matter against 1 shot attacks, high damage aoe circles, dual shell karkas, etc. This is a big reason why “ascended = treadmill” doesn’t quite hit the mark so much as saying WoW has a treadmill.

CoRtex.2157:

You can create a character, get him to 20, and you can go where ever you like to go. You want to do fow? you run to toa, you want to finish all missions, fine you’ll do that, you want to vanquish stuff, fine. There is nothing you need to do before to start those things. Buying max armor is cheap, so are runes & max weapons. And you can get them anywhere, any time you want.

This sounds an awful lot like GW2, just so you know.

Ironcloud.3892:

I’m still pretty confused on why everyone screams “VERTICAL PROGRESSION!!!” after the release of this update, when all it is, is just another stat tier added on to the 5 of which we already had, only difference being is that there is a slightly bigger jump in effort to get it. The game you bought before is the game you still have, a horizontal MMO with a little bit of non gated vertical progression.

And although I don’t mind the fractals and Ascended gears themselves, Anet definitely implemented them wrongly, a main reason being that there is currently very little incentive to do anything other than farm Fractals (PvE-wise), which results in the death of certain zones… But this has already been addressed as an issue.

This.

As long as the vertical progression doesn’t gate me from content and is a slightly higher low-hanging fruit in regards to effort to acquire, it doesn’t bother me.

I believe that vertical progression as a gating mechanism is a problem, but not one without a fun (hopefully) solution. This game has given a pretty excellent solution thus far, but botched the landing.

critickitten.1498:

And keep in mind, this is just a single set of gear. We already know, based on previous developer’s notes and posts, that the game’s level cap will be raised and that more tiers of gear are coming. Which means that eventually, Exotic gear will eventually no longer “cut it” for most functions and it certainly won’t be good enough for WvW. And when it no longer does, you’ll be hopping back on the gear treadmill with the rest of us.

So after a night of thinking on my posts, it seems you and Raine are both completely missing the point that I’ve been making in favor of arguing some static view of vertical progression as if it’s the concept itself that’s a problem. The problem with arguing from this point of view is you lack context.

All the best stats in the world don’t matter if I’m not gated from content.

I can (and have) tackled Explorables in Greens and Yellows, and succeeded, therefore exotics are negligible. I can beat players at lvl 80 on my 45 ele in WvW. He doesn’t even have a single rare. That stats in WvW largely take a back seat to the strategy.

Please explain to me how vertical progression impedes in any way on my game play experience, because so far, it hasn’t.

As I already illustrated, a simple ballpark estimate for Ascended gear (presuming it only raises power by 10% per item) suggests that it is likely to be as much as 23% more powerful than existing Exotic gear. That’s a massive leap forward, one that will definitely affect WvW’s metagame. Those with Ascended gear suddenly have a massive damage output advantage over players who previously dominated the game with their skill or tactics. And that’s bound to lead to one of two things happening:

1. The now-obsolete-but-skillful player will say “Okay, no problem. I’ll just grind for Ascended gear too and then I’ll be back on top.” and will proceed to grind the new content for its gear. This will lead to him getting back to dominance eventually, but in the process he’ll either need to pay real money at some point (as some players already do) or he’ll need to spend a significant portion of his time grinding, which risks him falling way behind in the current metagame.
2. The now-obsolete-but-skillful player will say “Okay, this is frustrating. I was originally a great player, but now the game’s becoming more of a battle of who has the best loot.” and will quit the game. This is often the more common reaction to power creep, and when your game relies heavily on micro-transactions from an ever-decreasing player base, it leads to less people playing and more financial struggles for the game, forcing them to monetize in other ways and get more desperate.

Good job revealing your ridiculous bias.

“The options are mandatory grind or mandatory cash shop.”

Give me a break.

Raine.1394:

You are seriously accusing me of not seeing something they didn’t say? Frankly, I’m nonplussed on that one—I don’t know how to respond. I was dealing simply with the facts that we have on the table. We know what vertical progression is and we know that Anet said that there would be vertical progression moving forward.

I really enjoyed the your request to leave game design challenges to game designers instead of shouting about vertical progression. Drat I thought I left the capslock off. My mistake I guess. Look, what we are dealing with is truly simple and straightforward. We know what vertical progression is by its definition. We also know that vertical progression is now a part of GW2. There are people that are unhappy about it as they bought GW2 believing that the forced grind stopped with level 80 exotics.

There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is, ascended gear will probably be easy enough to acquire through not grinding the same instance. That’s the point of the low power curve.

There’s the facts on the table.

I’ve read “forced,” “obligated,” “required,” “mandatory,” and a few other words echoing that sentiment about ascended gear.

The fact is, unless you are a gear grinder who must have the best gear available at any given time, ascended gear in it’s current incarnation is irrelevant.

It’s 1% more effective than my current set of gear.

What it is going to be in the future remains to be seen, but if the current incarnation is anything to go by, ascended gear’s existence won’t impede on my ability to see the content ArenaNet has made in any part of the game. Period.

That basically destroys any “mandatory grind” right there.

If you think you’re being “forced” to play the game to get gear that’s irrelevant to your effectiveness outside of a single small part of the game, you should re-evaluate why you’re playing in the first place.

critickitten.1498:

You are obligated to grind in one place, and only one place, to obtain them. Which is currently an undeniable fact. That goes directly against their initial promises for the game not to be “forced to grind dungeons at endgame”, a fact they themselves have admitted and have said they intend to fix.

And they will play a role in combat, especially WvW, just as every other item set did. The only way you can claim otherwise is if you actually believe that a Lvl 1 player in WvW upscaled to 80 is exactly as strong as a Lvl 80….and I have news for you, their power levels aren’t actually all that close. Scaling is designed to provide everyone an equal opportunity, but the gear you wear makes a significant difference in your final scaled strength, and higher tiers of gear (as well as higher leveled players) benefit from better scaling in both directions. This is precisely why players fought so hard to get Exotic gear right away….and why they protested so vehemently when a new gear set was already being released a mere three months into the game’s release.

Yes, some people grinded to the top, hit a wall, and complained about it. But those people were not the majority, and never will be. If GW2 intends to cater to a crowd that it can’t possibly cater to (because the grinders will always obtain the new gear far faster than you can make it), everyone else will be left behind eventually.

I prefer not mincing words, myself. A “grind” is simply defined as repetition of the same task over and over, usually for the sake of gear, which is exactly what this is.

And again, the only way you can believe this to be a “self-imposed” problem is if you actually think that those extra stats don’t mean anything. In which case, you don’t understand how the game works at all.

I’m not going to go read your asserted opinions because you’re wrong. It’s not like vertical progression is a newfangled concept, years of other MMOs have proven that a vertical progression system always affects the game. Especially in PvP, which is very bad for a game that proudly proclaims it intends to make its PvP into an “e-sport”.

I’ve played several other MMOs in the past and while I agree that the effects in PvE are significantly lessened, that isn’t (and never was) what people were complaining about in the first place. People aren’t mad about Ascended gear because of PvE, they’re worried about the effects on sPvP and WvW, because in both cases, having stronger gear with less scaling penalties attached means you will be stronger than the other guys out there. And that is a problem for a game that wants to flaunt its combat system as entirely skill-based.

Since you decide to want to talk about what’s “currently” in game, let’s talk about how those minor accessories equate to about 1% more relative stat effectiveness.

Yeah. Let that sink in.

I also addressed that vertical progression in this game has more than one outcome. Iteration also isn’t a newfangled concept, and the way vertical progression is handled isn’t set in stone.

Also, this is a non-issue for sPvP.