This is what people have a problem with. It’s not Ascended gear that was said to have been present at release. The problem is vertical progression. I would suggest you watch the video from extra credits. It does a good job of describing vertical progression itself without a specific game context, though it does use examples from games. Vertical progression is not a problem in itself, it’s fine for those who like gear grinds. But GW2 was to be a different MMO, Anet didn’t make grindy games. We have a problem with vertical progression in a game that was promised to be anything but.
So you honestly believe that there is no compromise between the two? I’d say you’re wrong, and I have explained why you’re wrong.
Your premise that there’s a point where you need certain stats to continue playing the game is such a large elephant in the room that ArenaNet has basically said:
“Look, there are people who like having more stats to go for, and there are people who don’t want to fall behind because they decided to have a life. We’re striking the middle ground where there’s both an item goal for the first type of player, while making sure that the content we produce is seen by all players, max gear or not.”
This is what you’re not seeing. There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is, ascended gear will probably be easy enough to acquire through not grinding the same instance. That’s the point of the low power curve.
Maybe you should leave game design challenges to game designers, instead of shouting about vertical progression as if there’s only one outcome.
@Mackdose
The very fact that you have to go to the fractals to get drops, you have to go to fractals to get ascended items so far is part of my point. They’ve already begun this process to say that they might not continue it is naive at best and to say that this problem doesn’t exist is completely false. GW2’s current design (post launch mind started about a month after launch to those of us paying attention) limits rewards for open world events but allows them to flow normally (barring any DR bugs or loot drop issues with accounts) limits gameplay via a lack of reward system that basically is so bad that new players who didn’t play the first month and thus didn’t have access to the initial loot tables to buy gold to gear their main once they reach level 80. Unless of course you think it’s normal to have to run endless fractal runs just to get enough gold to buy the exotics one needs? And when I say gear I mean everything down to multiple weapons for the classes that use them, runes, sigils, jewelry all exotic. Imagine how expensive that might be for ascended if they go down the gold path with that? It’s no theory it’s happening right now in TP. The evidence is there.
It’s easily the power creep scenario with ascended as the next step, whether you believe it’s true or not.
Good thing that there are more ways to get those items than buying them from the TP. Or did you forget that?
How about the fact that Ascended items are only obtained via the Fractals, forcing players to fight there in order to obtain them? Sounds like a forced grind to me. And while I have a lot of fun with Fractals, there’s no question that it’s a grind. You’re obligated to play it to obtain items that show up nowhere else.
This complaint is precisely why the devs stated that they are going to add Ascended items elsewhere in the game, because of how badly botched the initial release was and how it forced their players to grind one piece of content and nothing else.
And yet even in Fractals there’s already a hard limit starting to emerge on player ability and Agony Resistance, making it insurmountable without….you guessed it….more Ascended items to grant even more Agony Resistance. Yes, it’s currently only applied to Fractals which means it won’t affect most other PvE content, but if you honestly expect this to remain the case forever, then I’m afraid you’re being rather naive. This mechanic was only introduced so that they could “encourage” players to grind for these items, there’s no way that Agony will remain applicable only to the Fractals if they wish to continue pushing this new tier of items on us as the new top gear. In fact, I wouldn’t be that shocked if the dev team revamped the older dungeons to have Agony as well.
So yeah, I’d agree with anyone claiming that Ascended items are an indication of the game’s future in vertical progression: needing to grind different areas of content in order to keep on top of the gear curve. And when you’re being forced to play in certain areas, that keeps you from playing the game the way you want to play it. It’s honestly quite fair for people to ‘rebel’ against that, even if it’s potentially an overreaction.
Read my other posts in the thread for more on why the “gear treadmill” is more or less irrelevant to anyone who enjoys playing the game for fun as opposed to playing the game to increase their ego.
For many a gear grind is the opposite of fun. They realize that when all players hop off the gear treadmill they are at the same relative power to each other as they were when they hopped on. Meanwhile the environment has attained the new power level as well so they are at the same power relative to the environment as they were before the new tier of gear. Nothing has changed. No one has gone anywhere. They have just expended in-game time and effort to keep up with the stat progression. This is an example of a forced grind. A forced grind is one you must do to continue playing the game. Examples are pretty much all other MMO’s that have vertical progression.
You do realize that you’re arguing a net gain of zero in both vertical and horizontal models, right?
Horizontal: no progression in stats, completing content for skins, zero relative gain.
Vertical: Small progression in stats, still completing content for skins, zero relative gain.So what point exactly are you trying to make here?
With vertical progression there is a forced grind required in order to continue playing the game. No matter how low the power curve there will be a point at which you need to hop on the treadmill if you want to continue playing the game.
But that’s demonstrably false in this game thus far. You can’t just insert your experience from previous games’ vertical progression into this one and state it as an inevitable fact. You’re going to need some evidence to support this statement, and thus far you’ve provided nothing but rhetoric.
You also haven’t addressed my point that horizontal and vertical are both a relative net gain of zero when it comes to perceived “progression.” Meaning that you can’t discount vertical progression with a “there’s no real progression” argument.
Nothing has changed, they just realized their mistake and are correcting it. The only mistake they made in this transition was only allowing the items to be obtained in 1 way instead of releasing all the methods at once.
Quoted for emphasis. This is exactly what happened and as long as it is corrected in a fun and engaging way, all is forgiven in my eyes. Until then; WHERE’S THAT BLOG COLIN?
Great video explaining what can happen if Anet are not careful, but so far I have no problem with the way things are. Watch the video very enlightening.
Great video. They’ve actually already started the cycle sadly and It wasn’t even 3 months when they did so. Adding an extra gear set for an invented need for a time crunch to gain the new armor sets and then promising to raise the scores of legendary weapons to the level of ascended all while telling the playerbase that ascended really isn’t that much better then the current gear in stats has been my major issue. I deal with absolutes. For example, is +15 alot more powerful then +10? Not by itself, but what they failed to admit to or did so on purpose, was that when every piece of gear you receive has a +5 advantage, collectively this becomes a very big advantage because as any mathematician will tell you, all those +5’s add up. so if we were to say all items including the armor and weapon and trinkets all had a +5 higher then the exotics, that would equal the hypothetical score of +70. Nothing shabby about that score is it.
So we are already seeing power creep right now in the game. Just because that gear is coming and not here yet is irrelevant.
Now if they keep the system they are using for obtaining gear, guess what that means. This new power creep with me monetized greatly. For example, if they do make the gear available as a RNG drop in fractals and let’s assume they finally get rid of the bugs, and they make those drops not soulbound on aquire, those items will be sold in the TP that already suffers from manipulation. Sending many a poor schmo to the gem store to get gold. Same goes for if they make these items craftable via the mystic toilet or the crafting professions. And what happens if the keep the drops to make these items dungeon based like they do for the currency for the back items sold there? It would further widen the gap and increase the cost of the items in gold in the TP.
So the only solution i can see that would remove this endless gold lust is to make ascended items with the same scores available via karma vendors (even if they make those vendors in Orr temples like they’ve been doing with exotics) or keep the crafters happy and make ascended gear available for karma cost per recipe and make the drops of the items to make these ascended gear items open world drops without restrictions (like no more DR or lower drop rates without 50% MF). That would ultimately stop the gold lust extremism, return people to the open world, and keep this system horizontal not vertical meaning more players would have access to these items with more gameplay styles.
What? This post makes no sense at all. Anet already intends to put Ascended in the open world, and the entire “IT’S ONLY TO GET PEOPLE TO BUY GEMS” conspiracy tarnishes your point.
Also, there is nothing inherent in GW2’s design that makes vertical progression limit styles of play. You can’t complain about a problem that doesn’t exist.
@mackdose
The difference lies in what you do once you hit 80. In a vertical system, 80 doesn’t really mean anything because you need to set your sights on getting BiS gear and since the definition of BiS is constantly moving, you’ll never get there.
There are some people who enjoy this and when new content is released they attack it and get the new BiS items as quickly as possible and relish the experience, but then they feel they have nothing to do until the next patch and corresponding tier of gear is released.
Other people would prefer to hit 80, get their BiS items and then go about the business of having fun in the game. This could mean WvW or doing Jumping Puzzles, doing all the dungeons, doing fractals, etc. They look forward to new content patches not because it means new gear for them to obtain, but because they are excited to explore the new areas. In theory this would mean exploring Southsun Cove and killing karkas because it’s fun to do, not because new pink items are out there for them to get. The added advantage of this method is that players can log out, go on vacation, come back later, etc and not find out that their previously BiS gear is now outdated and they need to “catch up”
Sounds like a player issue to me. You can’t blame a game for previous MMO’s mental training.
This argument also doesn’t hold water because the stat increase in GW2 is much lower than other MMOs, meaning that you’re not gated from content for not having “BiS.” This essentially renders the “catch-up” argument moot.
There’s nothing inherent in this game’s version of vertical progression that keeps you from playing any content, and that’s by design. You can still chase skins (meaning previous armor isn’t obsolete, because you can transmute) do WvW, jumping puzzles, etc.
Mountain out of a mole hill. Power creep creeps, but power creep is also satisfying as a player.
For many a gear grind is the opposite of fun. They realize that when all players hop off the gear treadmill they are at the same relative power to each other as they were when they hopped on. Meanwhile the environment has attained the new power level as well so they are at the same power relative to the environment as they were before the new tier of gear. Nothing has changed. No one has gone anywhere. They have just expended in-game time and effort to keep up with the stat progression. This is an example of a forced grind. A forced grind is one you must do to continue playing the game. Examples are pretty much all other MMO’s that have vertical progression.
You do realize that you’re arguing a net gain of zero in both vertical and horizontal models, right?
Horizontal: no progression in stats, completing content for skins, zero relative gain.
Vertical: Small progression in stats, still completing content for skins, zero relative gain.
So what point exactly are you trying to make here?
Aside from the selfish aspect of my post, an official roleplaying server would still be nice.
Agreed.
All for Tarnished Coast as the Official Roleplaying Server?
So, I spend the morning in Frostgorge, appropriate level for my 80 war, several events (which ofc I had to run solo), several Veterans taken down, spent 2 hours and got One blue.. a bow. Very few drops at all, off anything.
Got sick of it, decided to run back to Hoelbrek and avoid the waypoint cost. One shotted a level 6 Svanir and pulled a level 75 rare Norn Dagger.
Risk v Reward. Yah. Missing in Action in GW2.
This is hands down my biggest gripe with GW2, and I enjoy the hell out of this game.
TC is awesome for its roleplayers, makes Tyria feel like Tyria.
Roleplaying and WvW play aren’t mutually exclusive any more than people doing fractals, open world PVE, or any other non wuvwuv activity.
Stop trying to spoil everyone’s fun because you feel like “roleplayers” are detrimental to WvW performance. Like someone said above me, we’re in T2, and we got there because of our playerbase. Don’t like it? Transfer.
Long live roleplaying in all game activites, from a tabletop RPG veteran.
I’m really enjoying my personal story and dont even mind questing… Which is amazing considering I absolutely hated questing in WoW lol.
Well, that’s because it’s not really questing. It’s not talk to NPC, go do specific boring stuff, and go all the way back to the NPC, which is probably what you hated.
Cheers.
Cut out the parts about NPC’s and you get what GW2 leveling is; Do specific boring stuff.
Not at all, you have a choice of which things to do. Hence you do the less boring stuff.
That’s huge, it really is.
Cheers.
Subtle changes like that are lost on people who expect drastic change over iteration.
You didn’t even answer my question.
Nor do I intend to. I don’t have to prove anything to you.
Again, it’s a great game, but it has flaws. If you don’t already know what they are, you haven’t been playing the game enough.
If you’re not going to substantiate your opinion while posting on a forum, why bother to post?
What I think are flaws and what you think are flaws might be different, hence the question. No need to be such an indignant sod about it.
and I do feel as though the dev team lost their way at some point because several of the game’s primary flaws are things they themselves said don’t belong in an MMO.
Such as? Don’t say “grind” because the grind in GW2 is faaaar less than other MMOs of late.
I’ll say “grind” all I like, considering that having “less grind” still doesn’t fulfill their promise of a game with NO grinding.
And no, actually, that’s only one of the flaws on my list.
Nice try, though.
You didn’t even answer my question.
There is a reason WoW hit 13 mil and GW2 hasn’t even hit 2-3+ mil in box sales and I seriously doubt there are even over a mil active players.
It hit 1 million pre-purchases in April, then sold 2 mil at release. it has since had strong sales through December according to NCsoft sales data.
You see how wrong you are? Stop moving goal-posts.
GW2 does not cover all those features in one package and that is your opinion only. So please don’t try and tell me and others what we fail to realize when you fail to realize how blah and ordinary and nothing new and groundbreaking GW2 is.
Features the game has are my opinion now? lol.
My opinion is that GW2 is a great, if flawed, game. GOTY? Sure, for what I’ve gotten out of it. Everything I listed as features are facts.
Congrats. I’ve been a gamer for ~25 years and GW2 is imo the model for state of the art online game. It’s a good time to game and ANet deserves credit.
I’ve been a pc/console gamer for more than 25 years and GW2 is imo not the model at all for the state of the art online gaming. There is a reason WoW hit 13 mil and GW2 hasn’t even hit 2-3+ mil in box sales and I seriously doubt there are even over a mil active players.
It hit 1 million pre-purchases in April, then sold 2 mil at release. it has since had strong sales through December according to NCsoft sales data.
To the previous replies from you and Socks:
Both you and Socks fail to realize that piecemeal features from other games doesn’t diminish the fact that GW2 covers all of those features in one package, which was my point.
The dye system has been changed several times before release (well, you know, ANet loves to iterate). In the initial concept they were account wide, as has been posted by Kristen Perry in a blog post in 2010. Also, in the first beta, dyes did not drop as “bottle”, they were grown from seeds in your home instance. Growing seeds would take 24 hours (IRL), but you could speed up this process by buying an item from the cash shop.
At time of the second beta, they changed how dyes were acquired. They now were dropping directly as unidentified dyes, they unlocked colors for a single character only, and they were non-tradeable (account bound, IIRC). This means you could not even get rid of excess dyes on your account. Naturally, this led to an outcry in the community, so they changed the dyes to be tradeable.
Also, while dyes are still unlocked on a per character basis, they introduced actually many ways to obtain dyes in the game: the drop regularly in PvE, if you are a cook you can craft them, you can gamble for dyes in the Mystic Forge, and otherwise you can buy (and sell) dyes at the trading post. And in case this is still not enough, you can also buy dye packs in the cash shop.
As much as I complained during the second beta (and although I am an altoholic), I found the dye drops to be plenty enough such that I have only bought a single dye pack in the cash shop so far. I find the dye system has proven to be a fair system, and I don’t see Anet changing anything on that front in the near future.
As an aside, please don’t let to the many conspiracy theorists in this thread discourage you. They need to blame Nexon, the cash shop, super-greedy-greedy ANet, or whatever boogie man they chose to crucify on a regular basis to be happy. Maybe some people are also just disappointed that it is about 4 month into the game and they still do not have a collection of all rare dyes yet. This is, of course, is just based on a grave misunderstanding what the word “rare” actually means.
~MRA
I’d just like to say, amazing post. This is exactly how I feel about the character bound dyes.
That and dyes as progression is fun for me.
I posted on this, too. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/To-Raid-or-Not-to-Raid/first#post1133065
There needs to be something else added to Guild Wars 2 endgame PvE. It doesn’t have the be a gear treadmill or a grind. It just need to allow more people, be bigger, have more challenging bosses (better mechanics/phases) and give people that rush after they finally down a boss.
I thought meta events were ArenaNets substitute for raiding, but turns out it’s just a big zerging faceroll, in my opinion.
I think it’s a “zerging faceroll” because if the events were sufficiently difficult no one would do them.
Raids aren’t good for this game for several reasons:
A. It promotes class composition, forcing friends and guilds to abandon certain people because they weren’t a guardian, for example.
B. The graphics of the game is higher than the normal standard and with the amount of combat there is in the game with having to dodge and everything, would be a FPS nigmare.
C. This game is intended to be a bridge between casual and hardcore. I am a casual myself for example, playing about 2 hours a day. When you implement raids, they generally take HOURS to complete. Not only that, you have to schedule several players and HOPE they show up on time.
D. It indirectly destroy small guilds, because no one will even attempt to wait out until the guild gets slightly larger before raiding. Currently, small guilds like mine can progress. My guild for example has 8 members and we are at LvL 20 FOTM.
Not to mention the 5 man content is difficult in itself, I don’t see a reason what makes a difference.
I disagree, I think a 10 or 15 man large scale instance would be interesting. Imagine the delicious tears when the battles are 20 mobs vs 15 players… only now the mobs are meant to kill the players rather than be filler for an event.
If there were hard-mode open world events that scaled horizontally (think siege weapons, waves of large monsters amidst threatening smaller mobs, strict time limits, etc) I would be pleased.
If you really want raids, then try Fractals.
You honestly see more things change than health each level. Once you get passed 20, it’s more of a progression because of agony.
I want large scale mechanically interesting progression. Fractals are a step in the right direction, but I’d also like guilds to have something to do other than WvW.
Raids aren’t good for this game for several reasons:
A. It promotes class composition, forcing friends and guilds to abandon certain people because they weren’t a guardian, for example.
B. The graphics of the game is higher than the normal standard and with the amount of combat there is in the game with having to dodge and everything, would be a FPS nigmare.
C. This game is intended to be a bridge between casual and hardcore. I am a casual myself for example, playing about 2 hours a day. When you implement raids, they generally take HOURS to complete. Not only that, you have to schedule several players and HOPE they show up on time.
D. It indirectly destroy small guilds, because no one will even attempt to wait out until the guild gets slightly larger before raiding. Currently, small guilds like mine can progress. My guild for example has 8 members and we are at LvL 20 FOTM.
Not to mention the 5 man content is difficult in itself, I don’t see a reason what makes a difference.
I disagree, I think a 10 or 15 man large scale instance would be interesting. Imagine the delicious tears when the battles are 20 mobs vs 15 players… only now the mobs are meant to kill the players rather than be filler for an event.
If there were hard-mode open world events that scaled horizontally (think siege weapons, waves of large monsters amidst threatening smaller mobs, strict time limits, etc) I would be pleased.
So tell me, what is it that GW2 did so much better than the competition that meant it should receive an award? I honestly can’t think of any features it brought out that were significantly better and it doesn’t win on overall IMHO – though I couldn’t actually say who should.
and I do feel as though the dev team lost their way at some point because several of the game’s primary flaws are things they themselves said don’t belong in an MMO.
Such as? Don’t say “grind” because the grind in GW2 is faaaar less than other MMOs of late.
GW2 brought very little to the MMO genre with it’s release that we hadn’t already seen in other games. It didn’t even polish the current state of gaming to a shiny new level. Giving ArenaNet this award is rewarding mediocrity.
I haven’t played for a few months now due to lack of interest, but off the top of my head:
Voice acted story – SWTOR did this much better in every way. TSW had better acting and camera moves and far better characters. Need I mention Traherne? I didn’t want to do my class quest because of that one character.
Combat System – similar but not as good as the Skill Wheel from TSW. If you were a thief using S+P then you could one button your way though almost the entire game.
Jump Puzzles – already seen in TSW though GW2 has the edge here
Underwater combat – tedious and bug ridden. Mobs that often broke off and healed to full. Underwater areas however were often quite nice.
Graphics – about what I would expect from a 2007 title. Tera and TSW beat it hands down.
Asthetic – pretty good, but nothing special. It’s typical swords and sorcery with pirate overtones. Tera left it for dead, and TSW was ahead of it for those who like a modern setting.
Classes – pretty standard fare. TSW beats it hands down here. Tera is about on par.
Effects -ok when you’re alone but almost intolerable with a group.
Quests – Nothing too special. The class quests are pretty forgettable made all the worse by the terrible VA. The dynamic events were pretty decent fun but are just ‘public quests’ from Warhammer. The investigation quests of TSW blow these out the water.
Setting – I am so sick to death of D&D/Tolkien/Sword+Sorcery – time for something new. TSW gave us a modern setting which was a refreshing change from the same old same old of GW2.
Ability to quest with friends – ok, but if you have done the quests already you are basically just there to mash mobs for your friends. It doesn’t penalise you but it doesn’t incentise either. TSW did much the same prior to GW2 releasing with about the same result – slightly better in TSW’s favour though.
Endgame – appalling, but so is endgame for almost all MMOs.
PVP – since this was meant to be the selling point for the game it should score well but it doesn’t. We got a few domination maps which soon become dull and one major zone (discontinuous) for world PVP. PVP in there mainly consisted of jousting a door for 5 minutes, killing a mob, then running off to repeat elsewhere. It was tedious and lacked any skill whatsoever. Seeing five ‘commanders’ running from door to door Benny Hill style all without saying a single word was...×. I had no rated matches and WvWvW scores a 0 with me so I would say it was a big fail, except the other major releases were probably even worse.
Orr – the place MMO players are sent if they’ve been very very bad in their life
Zones – most were typical fare, nothing really stood out. While I didn’t hate any I didn’t feel a particular fondness for any either – it was all crap I’ve seen a million times and at a fairly low res too. Tera zones are much more detailed. TSW zones are just more interesting.I honestly can’t think of anything that GW2 did that was so outstandingly better than anyone else to receive this award. I can think of a lot of things it did that were mediocre or worse.
You can break any game down like this, and it doesn’t really make any point.
You can’t cherry pick features from other games and say GW2 didn’t do anything spectacular. Your warhammer reference specifically shows you have no idea how game mechanics evolve over time.
Those cherry picked features are also completely marred by the other parts of the respective game.
TOR? Buggy unoptimized mess with boring endgame encounters, boring crafting, 1 to1 WoW-clone mechanics.
TERA? Korean grind with okay combat and half naked prepubescent girls for a race.
TSW? Cool concept, mediocre execution.
Warhammer? Completely broken classes, poor pet AI, half of the content promised at launch non-existent.
Basically, your bias is showing.
The idea that MF is a selfish stat is unfounded. Unless MF is being replaced by healing power or boon duration, all stats are inherently selfish.
Unless you’re about to argue that the minor loss of an offensive stat against a pool of 5 peoples’ offensive ability is suddenly a huge loss (it isn’t, do the math), you’ve got no ground to stand on.
You’re not “carrying” someone in MF gear any more than you’re “carrying” someone in rares.
and I honestly do like GW2. I just don’t like how they’ve taken so long and achieved so little for overall game balance. It’s almost like they want everyone to be a warrior, guardian, or thief (which I’m going to do for my next char).
It’s been barely 4 months. If it’s still like this in another 4 or 6 months, I’ll be on your side of the “They haven’t done enough” fence.
<insert Gem Store conspiracy here>
/sarcasm
imo, if the dyes were account wide, the drop rate would have to be decreased to compensate. Otherwise, their price on the TP would plummet as time went on. And then this topic would be about why dye drops are so low.
As I and others have already said dye drops are so low already that it has exacerbated the issue and that they are so low that they should be made account wide to compensate. I doubt I average 1 drop a week now doing mainly dungeons and WvW at lvl 80.
I call BS. Every day that I spend in Orr the first 2 hours I get anywhere from 1-3 dye drops. This has been consistent for about 3 weeks now, 4 days out of the week.
Tanking stats – tanking gear – tanking traits: check
Healing stats – healing gear – healing traits: checkProduces results like farts in a hurricane…
Damage stats – damage gear – damage traits: check
Just build a character the way you like. It is all in the game. You can have all the trinity you want…
Like Ford said, you can get your model T in any color as long as it’s black.
My shout warrior in cleric gear would like a word with you.
There is no incentive to play support or control in this game, whatever heals / boons / anything you put out is almost never worth it, they are just too weak.
If you are indeed facerolling PvE it’s attributed to individual player skill, not build type.
Enjoy being wrong.
The servers aren’t dead and I don’t believe they changed the population ranges to display “full” when there are less people online… it’s just that no one is in a place where you can see them. Endgame is all about running an instance for the best gear, now, so that is where everyone is. They are either idling in a city looking for a group for it, or they are in the instance itself.
The players are still there, they just aren’t doing open world content anymore.
For your “average” “casual” mmo player then, the servers dead.
I am an “average” “casual” player, but I always find enough people to do whatever content I want.
The lack of the holy trinity(healer/dps/tank) in GW2 means we must change the playing style that we’ve grown lazy with by relying on the trinity in other games. GW2 is not “just” another MMO, GW2 redefines how we play MMOs and if we don’t change the lazy playing style that we have grown accustomed to, then we are left feeling like we don’t have a place in the game.
Because the tactics of “Die & run back” is sooo much fun, and only second to that all time favourite “Help! All 3 trash mobs are on me & I’ve no energy left to roll about like a Jedi with!”.
Yup, the game is fine without any kitten trinity or anything else… like fun!
Tactical tip of the day: “Ok, all drop combo fields and hope no one dies!”
I don’t “die and run back”. Not after my first runs on the dungeons.
Learn and adapt.
You just suck at this game and you’re blaming the game itself for your lack of skill.It’s funny you say that, because there is a path in CoF which you MUST use the “die, revive and run back” tactic otherwise it is virtually impossible. And don’t even try to argue that, this is due to a players skill or build because it’s clearly bad game design.
White knights like you are going to be the downfall of this game, it’s the reason SWTOR just fell apart, it’s blind fanboy fanbase who don’t know the meaning of constructive critisim and think their game is perfect in every single way, then wonder why the game ends up dead within a year.
Not all criticism is constructive, and the negative posts in this thread (OP included) have largely not been. No one playing this game regularly thinks the game is perfect. I certainly don’t.
It’s when people’s issue with the game is some biased hyperbole that is thrown out as undeniable fact is when people start showing up saying, “This clearly isn’t the game for you, why do you need to tell everyone else to stop having fun?”
That’s not fanboyism. That’s a reasonable question. If you’re not having fun with the game, why start flaming the game for not being your cup of tea?
Melee Control/Interrupter: Hammer – Mace/Shield Warrior
Build: 30/0/30/0/10 – Mending – Bull Rush/Stomp/Kick or “Shake it Off!” – Banner or SoR
Purpose: Interrupts, Area Denial, Leap/Blast Finishers, Defiant removal, Damage
The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.
Right, the roles in this game are more subtle and nuanced than the trinity system. The issue is that players have very little incentive to learn how they work outside of tPvP and high-level Fractals. You can run through AC or zerg in WvW/hotjoins without hardly coordinating at all, which leads people to believe that there is nothing to coordinate. It’s like running super easy/outleveled zones in trinity games with just DPS because you don’t need a tank or healer.
If it wasn’t this way, we’d see a thousand pages of THIS GAME’S TOO HARD, NERF THE ENEMIES.
I can’t be the only one who was here for the release deluge of explorables being too hard threads. there were big long discussions about how to play then, but everyone decided that waypoint running bosses was the thing to do, leading to the “all combat is zerg,” mentality we see in the OP of the thread.
The issue is content needing to require use of the combat depth. We need more clutch smoke screen saves (blast finisher in smoke to save a squishy being chased by a boss), and less HP bags with 2 abilities.
It’s amusing how many people are clearly satisfied with the mindless dim-witted combat in this game.
Vasham was right; Lot’s points only further emphasize it.
I would elaborate further, but it’s clear after 4 pages that there are too many sheep who are buying everything that ANet is selling… even this level of mediocrity.
The fact that you think either of those poster’s points were valid doesn’t lend much credibility to your opinion on the matter.
I can point out where the depth is in the combat, but if you’ve got your fingers in your ears and your mind made up, why bother? You’re just trying to ignite more flames, not have a discussion on where the game can improve.
I see no depth in spamming abilities for side-car buffs that are just a heaped on amalgamation of a mush-brain combat system. I’m saying that these buffs, these roles, these attributes…they aren’t well defined or extremely tangible in combat or in group play. Your team’s life doesn’t hinder on that regen, that vigor…why? I’ve got two dodges and a “heal me up” button and i think anyone who thinks there are well defined, gratifying roles to the combat in this game is severely delusional. There’s not enough risk / reward. The combat doesn’t revolve around the tightness and depth of the skill system, you just kite and dodge out of red circles. You sound like what i was preaching to doubters back before release. Too bad i opened up my eyes and actually experienced the game for the mess that it is. This game is not deep, engaging, or well designed. Truth is, it’s a solo game with multi-player options. Terrible loot system, terrible dungeon and encounter design, no group integrity, no meaning to roles or playing with other people outside of a numbers game.
So basically, you just don’t like the system and have no intention on discussing the game further than “It’s a casual, boring, zerg, spam-fest because I say so.”
Frankly, you’re wrong. If you think blind, chill, cripple and immobilize aren’t “tangible” you need to set the bong down and pay attention.
Players who are in fractals above 30 seem to think that tightness of the skill system and execution of fights matter. Why are there in-depth discussion on strategies for the fights if what you’re saying were true?
Do you have any points to add that aren’t just negative hyperbole?
There’s more combat depth in the first 15 seconds of a trash pull in AC than I’ve found in any endgame boss in WoW because it’s up to the players to shape fights rather the fights to adhere to “Tank gets threat, Go DPS, healer keep that tank topped off.”
Even though I’m not in the pro-trinity camp (see my spam above), I have to object to this characterization. In Lotro, some of my fave moments were trash pulls requiring multiple tanks, multiple healers, multiple lock down classes, and a wise decision of DPS order, and good timing. GW2 doesn’t have anything to resemble this level of team coordination,yet. It may never. I don’t know that it needs to have it, but I know that I would enjoy it that much more if it did, at least on some content. (BTW, I believe it’s the content that’s the problem, not the mechanic.
I’m not saying the trinity is bad and that games that use it are terrible, I quite enjoyed my time in LoTRO and WoW,(didn’t enjoy my time in several other trinity-based games), I’m just saying that GW2 has depth in it’s combat system, it’s just up to the players to figure it out.
And I agree also that this is a content problem, not a mechanical one.
I’d also like to add that, while GW2 has roles, they can be very intangible and ineffectual in the broad scheme of team play.
I’d like to know where you’re getting “ineffectual” from.
Blind, Cripple, and Chill are controlling team-oriented abilities, and are effective at saving the squishy teammate from certain death.
Regen, Vigor, Protection, and Aegis are supporting team-oriented abilities offering damage mitigation either directly or indirectly.
A team using these abilities to their full potential will succeed faster and more reliably than a team who doesn’t, and these are just a handful of the team-oriented boons and conditions.
It’s also not because we need a system to delegate roles, but that we need the roles to be more defined and structured. There are so many problems in engagement created by the combat system they chose and how shallow it is.
The roles aren’t designed to be structured, and it’s painfully obvious that you can’t get your head out of the “this is my job, and it’s the only one I have” mindset.
Classes have the ability to specialize in support or damage or control, but you’re never in any instance performing only one of these tasks in any given fight. Fights in this game are chaotic… until you have the players turn the fight into a controlled situation. They do this by using the tools they’ve specialized in to play to the strengths of the team while minimizing the weaknesses.
There’s more combat depth in the first 15 seconds of a trash pull in AC than I’ve found in any endgame boss in WoW because it’s up to the players to shape fights rather the fights to adhere to “Tank gets threat, Go DPS, healer keep that tank topped off.”
I personally find myself torn regarding the Trinity.
Another option (not saying for this game) is for all classes be able to be anything at a click of a setting. A Tank Stance, Heal Stance, DPS Stance, Support Stance, Jack of All Trades Stance. That way any 5 people are still a viable group, sure you have to negotiate who’s taking what role. But I could see that a viable alternative to how the whole mechanic plays out. This would keep trinity and make everyone viable if they are willing.
I really dislike the concept that has shown in this thread that we need a mechanic to delegate roles, and if there is no mechanic, the roles don’t exist.
There’s already mechanics to support teamplay and combat “roles” in this game, and it has a lot more to do with how a player plays than how a class “tanks” or “heals.” It’s up to the player to decide which role suits the situation best, not the game’s job to tell the player what role to be at any given moment. That’s where this disconnect is. Players who are used to the rigid tank/healer/dps are used to having the class tell them what to do. GW2 sets that task at the player’s feet, no matter which class they’re playing.
The effect of this is that players who adapt playstyles and are flexible in their gameplay enjoy GW2 mechanics and see them for what the are: a toolkit.
Players who like to have a single assigned job feel left out and overwhelmed by the options, and so pick options that suit the one role they want to play…while forsaking every other situational ability. These players get frustrated because the design is against them.
That and a bunch of other teamwork happens in these so-called mindless zergs all the time.
Everyone who says “mindless-zerg” figures that because they’re mashing buttons with no strat, it must be what everyone is doing. It’s really funny when people say that dungeons are “zerg fests” because 5 people apparently constistute a zergling horde.
All you have to do in PvE in press 1 and you win. That is mindless.
I thought trolling wasn’t allowed on this forum?
That and a bunch of other teamwork happens in these so-called mindless zergs all the time.
Everyone who says “mindless-zerg” figures that because they’re mashing buttons with no strat, it must be what everyone is doing. It’s really funny when people say that dungeons are “zerg fests” because 5 people apparently constistute a zergling horde.
Already made them in various threads. But think about a complete rework of the trait system as well as the UI for it. Clarity in tooltips so you can see the numbers change when you change traits and atttributes. I mean, why does a tooltip not tell me I get a 10% of something and when someone else sees the buff on my toon it tells them I got 10% of that something. A skill bar with more freedom to select skills rather than being linked to weapon sets and being forced to take one heal and an elite that is worse than your normal skills. Actual need for strategy. Tougher dragon fights, making it possible to fail those events and not get the rewards.
There really are 3 basic issues here:
Lack of transparency in the UI, making any existing depth virtually invisible.
Lack of strategy in group activities.
Lack of freedom and flexibility in the skill bar.
So your entire point can be boiled down to “The gameplay’s depth isn’t spoon-fed to me, therefore it doesn’t exist.”
You can talk about how there isn’t “choice” in this game until you’re blue in the face; but you’re still demonstrably wrong.
“But they’re small choices, therefore they don’t matter.”
Just because you don’t understand how trait/weapon/gear synergy affects your gameplay doesn’t mean that it’s insignificant. I play a warrior, a class everyone usually pegs as a one-trick pony. Yet I’ve found extremely different play-styles that are effective at different tasks at different ranges.
These are large choices, not superficial. I can choose to banner heal while stacking aoe might and controlling a pack of mobs. I can choose to tunnel vision the ranged enemy with a greatsword to keep him from harassing my back line . I can choose to grab a mace and shield / hammer and remove entire stacks of defiant by myself, leaving the enemy open to any interrupts on demand. I can choose to spike heal while removing conditions and granting boons.
Each of those builds play extremely differently, to the point where getting used to one makes you worse in another simply because the skill timings and positioning during combat are completely different, and your muscle memory changes.
(edited by Mackdose.6504)
While slightly off-topic, I’d like to say that I think MF is a brilliant mechanic. Why?
It’s basically hard-mode armor. Things get more difficult vs using typical optimized gear and you are rewarded with greater drops
This is why I get somewhat mad when people ask for magic find to be removed from the game. It’s clearly meant to be the great risk for greater reward armor, and the fact that Anet made it an option is pretty excellent.
We’re probably better off with the Guild Wars 1 version of guilds. I’d much rather have alliances (and the ability to represent other guilds within my alliance) as well as an alliance chat than the current system. Both are fine systems that are lacking in certain areas (such as GW1 not allowing you to see online alliance members and GW2 not fostering loyal members), but if we take the best from both we could come up with something stronger and better.
And I am flatly against a dungeon finder. Automatically throwing me into a room with 5 strangers is cold and mechanical. It’s like sorting objects on a factory line. No thanks. I’d rather have a party-find system that’s some sort of mashup between GW1 and Star Trek Online. I want a bulletin board style interface in-game where I can browse guilds and their recruitment ads, where I can browse active parties seeking more, where I can find dungeon groups seeking more, etc. A random dungeon finder is pretty god awful, keep it away.
Everything about this post should be taken as gospel.
A LFG/Guild browser UI is an exceptionally wonderful idea.
- If you’re around to notice a hacker ‘suddenly’ appear, nothing is faster than a single keystroke.
- If they’re hacking using the method you mentioned, they won’t be running off normally, just like they didn’t run into my screen normally.
If you’re going to give circumstances that a system broken, and I give a reasonable answer on how to report them anyway using the circumstances you provided, telling me my way is useless because it’s slower is pretty insulting.
The problem with your proposed solution is, again, two fold:
You’re assuming whenever a player is using a resource node, their number one priority is being on the lookout for the sudden appearance of other players. They’re not. Me, personally, I’m usually keeping an eye out on monsters in the distance or taking this automated-resource-extraction process as an opportunity to look over chat. Often when another player appears it is extremely difficult to tell how they arrived (out of thin air versus legitimately running up unnoticed).
You’re assuming players are going to go through the trouble of manually filing a report after the fact with their screenshot evidence. Many won’t. The quick-report function is as painless as it is for a reason – to encourage players to use it. When players can’t use that function, many simply won’t bother filing a report. You can call that laziness, but that doesn’t diminish the problem of the vulnerability in GW2’s systems nor the fact that it is being exploited.
Fair enough, but if you’re planning on reporting the player anyway, screenshotting allows you to submit the report at your leisure. Because of this, the speed at which you can submit the report is largely irrelevant, you can do it later and get the same result. The screenshot is to get the name, first and foremost, followed by the time and location (both on the map in the screenshot)
I’m not arguing that the method is efficient, I’m arguing that it works. Players don’t need to be on the lookout for them, since they suddenly appear (jarring) have to mine the node (enough time to hit a single key) and suddenly disappear (confirmation of hacking.)
If you care enough to file a report, there are alternative methods to capture this method of hacking effectively. Telling me that the problem with my method is that lazy people won’t bother is irrelevant, because there are people who would bother and didn’t think to just screenshot them, thinking that reporting from the frame is the only option.
To be honest, I think this is more of a player issue than a game one.
Yes, the guild design is what enables players to guild hop, but it’s the players themselves causing guilds to “fail.”
For instance: no one uses /g chat anymore, instead using Vent, TS or in my guilds case, Skype. Why chat if you have your main members in a 25 slot vent? This creates an atmosphere of no one talking. After a while, someone sees an ad for HUGE GUILD
and reps them instead, because having that amount of players, people are bound to be G-chattingThe fact the the article concludes with “they need a dungeon finder” which would basically solidify guilds as throw-away if implemented, kind of makes the whole of the article’s complaints moot.
Human beings use systems that are available to them.
Blaming players is not the answer. Blaming the systems is the answer. Players are not going to ignore an available system.
Changing the system is the answer.
Your post is the same as saying that banks should regulate themselves. How about we change the system so bankers have to act responsible instead of leaving it up to them. It’s tantamount to asking a 2 year old to regulate themselves from the cookie jar with a open lid on the floor next to them.
How about we just give people a system that encourages guilds rather than kills them.
So basically you’re saying players are stupid/irresponsible and expecting them to act reasonably and responsibly is bad design and asking too much?
All the game has is a means for players to represent whatever guild they want, changing that won’t change the revolving door approach to player expectations for guilds. The fact that most players in guilds have probably known each other for years, and are in a 3rd party communication solution is a huge problem for new players looking for guilds.
Players being to stupid to regulate themselves? UM, hello banking industry. Um, hello humans with power.
Yeah, people regulating themselves works out real good am I right? Maybe we should just get rid of checks and balances in government and we’ll just trust them to regulate themselves.
You know like how Walmart pays their employees better and better every year, oh wait.
You know like how children with a bag of halloween candy will regulate themselves.
You know like how the Dodo bird is still around because people regulated themselves.
You know like how Rhino’s and Elephants are doing well because of self regulation.
You know how the rich don’e abuse their money and power in politics to get lower tax rates.
People are great at regulating themselves. >.> 10,000 years of human nature, numerous animals being hunted to extinction would disagree with you.
Thanks for not addressing any points in my posts, choosing instead to draw poor analogies as straw-man arguments.
The issues are, and I’ll spell it out for you, that players:
If you’re going to give circumstances that a system broken, and I give a reasonable answer on how to report them anyway using the circumstances you provided, telling me my way is useless because it’s slower is pretty insulting.
Why wouldn’t this work?
To be honest, I think this is more of a player issue than a game one.
Yes, the guild design is what enables players to guild hop, but it’s the players themselves causing guilds to “fail.”
For instance: no one uses /g chat anymore, instead using Vent, TS or in my guilds case, Skype. Why chat if you have your main members in a 25 slot vent? This creates an atmosphere of no one talking. After a while, someone sees an ad for HUGE GUILD
and reps them instead, because having that amount of players, people are bound to be G-chattingThe fact the the article concludes with “they need a dungeon finder” which would basically solidify guilds as throw-away if implemented, kind of makes the whole of the article’s complaints moot.
Human beings use systems that are available to them.
Blaming players is not the answer. Blaming the systems is the answer. Players are not going to ignore an available system.
Changing the system is the answer.
Your post is the same as saying that banks should regulate themselves. How about we change the system so bankers have to act responsible instead of leaving it up to them. It’s tantamount to asking a 2 year old to regulate themselves from the cookie jar with a open lid on the floor next to them.
How about we just give people a system that encourages guilds rather than kills them.
So basically you’re saying players are stupid/irresponsible and expecting them to act reasonably and responsibly is bad design and asking too much?
All the game has is a means for players to represent whatever guild they want, changing that won’t change the revolving door approach to player expectations for guilds. The fact that most players in guilds have probably known each other for years, and are in a 3rd party communication solution is a huge problem for new players looking for guilds.
To be honest, I think this is more of a player issue than a game one.
Yes, the guild design is what enables players to guild hop, but it’s the players themselves causing guilds to “fail.”
For instance: no one uses /g chat anymore, instead using Vent, TS or in my guilds case, Skype. Why chat if you have your main members in a 25 slot vent? This creates an atmosphere of no one talking. After a while, someone sees an ad for HUGE GUILD
and reps them instead, because having that amount of players, people are bound to be G-chatting
The fact the the article concludes with “they need a dungeon finder” which would basically solidify guilds as throw-away if implemented, kind of makes the whole of the article’s complaints moot.
There’s a ton of baseless garbage here, specifically referring to NCsoft’s stock falling being caused by Nexon’s purchase of stock.
You guys do understand that stock prices are relative with the rest of the market sector, and the stock market as a whole right?
If the whole market drops, everyone who is part of that market also drops.
L2Stock market.
FOTM violates this because it forces you to do only FOTM over and over for ascended gear, and not WVWVW, or PVE, or other dungeons.
Which, Chris Whiteside has already stated in the Reddit AMA, will be changing. Soon.
Again, where is the problem?
Uh the problem is that FOTM ever made it into the game the way it did. It’s not as if FOTM came down from the heavens one day and introduced itself to the developers and us and no one realized what it was until later. They made it. If they are really so dumb they didn’t realize what their creation was they shouldn’t be in charge of an MMO. The only reasonable conclusion is they were aware of what they were doing and did it anyway. That they realize now the error of their ways is better than not realizing it but it doesn’t really make me confident about the future of the game that something like FOTM ever made it into the game. Especially the way it did, completely by surprise with virtually no period for public comment or testing.
From most of the posts I’ve read, it sounds like a great addition to an MMO, the problem is that GW2 said for the last few years this isn’t the route they’re going and people loved that idea and followed the development of this game for years. 3 months after release and it’s all been changed.
I wouldn’t even mind FoTM if it had ZERO effect to WvW, but it does have some effect and with that either you keep up with the Jones’ or you possibly fall behind. So what if this time it’s only 1%, next time another 1% or more, then again… 1%-2%, till we’re talking 10-15% more stats, then you’re WAY behind if you haven’t been keeping up. This is what the people who are upset are talking about. Once you go past a line you create, it’s much easier to go past the next one, and the next.
That’s called the slippery slope fallacy, and since there is a possible middle ground (low power curve, future availability of ascended gear/infusions, ease of acquisition in the future) it is not a strong argument.
Just because WoW does this doesn’t mean GW2 has or will.
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