Regardless of agreeing or disagreeing with what’s happeing to the game, i suggest everyone read that artical – it’s very good.
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Also be sure to watch this aswell. Extra Credits – Power Creep
This ties in with content locusts/gear treadmills.
Here’s what i’m wondering, when was this decided?, see the update comes out around 3 months after release BUT surely the ideas for the items got decided much sooner – So was this decided before release or very shortly after release?.
I see a lot of posts saying “this was put in after only 3 months”, BUT it’s more of a case of “did they plan this before release?” or “how soon after release did they come up with this?”.
I’d love to know, if it was before release then considering the info we got given in blogs/videos it’s even worse than chaging it now (as we got fed false info from the get go), and if it was shortly after release then it’s almost as bad as that as they decided to not tell any of us and let us waste time/effort/gold/real money on things that we had no idea would become outdated in such a short period of time.
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Ask yourself this, if you had known a month ago (or at release) that a new higher level back item was on the way so soon, would you have bought the 5 gold back item or waited for the new one? (or any similar item that will be Ascended) – i know for a fact i would have waited as i only got my back item a few days ago.
A-NET you may want to watch this video before going down this road. A great detailed delivery of consequences of a gear treadmill/power creep.
I watched that back when it was made (and every Extra Credits episode before and since – great stuff), it’s a very good explination on why Anet should not do this stats change and what can happen if they go ahead with it.
Sadly i bet they will never watch it, which is a shame as they really should (and i suggest everyone watch all the EC episodes and not just this one!).
“But, I think what we as a community of outraged players want to hear from them say something along these lines:
“Ascended Gear will be best in slot for the lifecycle of the game. We needed to fill a gap we left in our original design while introducing the infusion mechanic we used in GW1. Ascended gear allows us to do that, and hopefully solve many problems for a slight pain to current players.”
If I had that once piece of confirmation, I would be set."
If it was true and came from Anet, I agree this would assuage most of the population.
Very good artical, thanks for posting it.
Unfortunalty as with most decent stuff/ideas regarding Ascended gear it will get lost and Anet will never see it.
Ascended stat upgrades, the same system across all Ascended item types (trinkets, armor, weapons).
I posted this in the megathread but seeing as there is no clarification on if it will happen i thought i would post it as a suggestion.
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My original post.
What i’m wondering is will the stats/standard upgrade being included carry over to all remaining Ascended pieces.
What i mean is – in the preview pic we see that the usual stats gem (opal jewel) is included in the main stats and the standard slot is then turned into an infusion slot, will this carry over to every other kind of “Ascended” item as and when they come out.
Think about it, Ascended rings come with a fixed set of extra stats from a fixed jewel, so will Ascended armor items come with a fixed set of runes, & will Ascended weapons come with a fixed sigil?.
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This would still be bad IMO (as i don’t agree with the new level being added at all), but it wouldn’t be as bad – this would mean Exotics would still have a place beside (not behind) Ascended items as with Exotics you’d have slightly lower stats BUT more customization in how you put them together and with Ascended items you’d have slightly higher stats but no customization at all.
So an Ascended knights armor would be fixed and have only have 1 set of runes that can’t be changed ever (included as standard), yet Exotic knights armor has a choice of any set of Exotic runes (like it is now). Same goes for Ascended weapons, a knights weapon would have say only a 7% extra damage sigil as standard (an increase over the optinal Exotic 5% version) YET the Exotic knights weapon can choose to have 3 stacks of might or any other sigil the player wants.
I wonder.
So what i’m suggesting is to make the same system carry over to all Ascended items if it’s not already going to happen (i’m talking armor, weapons here).
As we can see from the new ring from the preview, the person with the Ascended version is fixed to an Opal jewel being included in that ring type (explorer), yet the Exotic version can be changed to a ruby if required/wanted. On armor it would follow the same pattern – the Ascended version would have a rune set based on the type of item (knights, beserker etc) and it can never be changed BUT the Exotic version could put in any type of rune set they see fit (same with weapons and sigils).
This is exactly what the implied advantage Exotic will have over Ascended is. Versatility and the ability to customize gear vs. Fixed stats that cannot be changed.
Indeed it does when it comes to the rings/trinket items, i’m just wondering will they carry the same idea over to all other Ascended items like armor and weapons – it would be a decent compromize IMO and it would mean once all Ascended items are released all Exotics (trinkets, armor, weapons) would still have a place beside Ascended items and not just behind them.
I’d post a standard question/idea thread, but it would get moved here anyways – it would be nice if anet is still reading this to discuss this with us.
What i’m wondering is will the stats/standard upgrade being included carry over to all remaining Ascended pieces.
What i mean is – in the preview pic we see that the usual stats gem (opal jewel) is included in the main stats and the standard slot is then turned into an infusion slot, will this carry over to every other kind of “Ascended” item as and when they come out.
Think about it, Ascended rings come with a fixed set of extra stats from a fixed jewel, so will Ascended armor items come with a fixed set of runes, & will Ascended weapons come with a fixed sigil?.
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This would still be bad IMO (as i don’t agree with the new level being added at all), but it wouldn’t be as bad – this would mean Exotics would still have a place beside (not behind) Ascended items as with Exotics you’d have slightly lower stats BUT more customization in how you put them together and with Ascended items you’d have slightly higher stats but no customization at all.
So an Ascended knights armor would be fixed and have only have 1 set of runes that can’t be changed ever (included as standard), yet Exotic knights armor has a choice of any set of Exotic runes (like it is now). Same goes for Ascended weapons, a knights weapon would have say only a 7% extra damage sigil as standard (an increase over the optinal Exotic 5% version) YET the Exotic knights weapon can choose to have 3 stacks of might or any other sigil the player wants.
Monday night before most of the guild had heard of this we had 14 online at 8PM, last night after we’d all spoken about it on our forums we had 2 people at 8PM
Can’t say this is the cause but I also felt less motivation…until I got in game and heard the music.
I’ve been online nearly every day since release (even if only for an hour or so), i haven’t logged in at all since reading the new info.
It’s strange, new features/updates are supposed to get you exited and make you want to keep playing, instead this has had to opposite effect for me and made me stop playing (and even refuse to invite people using the new invites).
Anyways, i really hope people keep it up with all the posts after this comes out, don’t just cave in and accept it if you don’t like it – if they do it once they may do it again if people don’t keep their voices heard after the change has been made.
I will also let my “friends” invites sit and rot because the people that had a SLIGHT interest in GW2 was because it didnt have gear treadmill. Those I would have invited will not buy the game anyway because of this change.
I did this aswell, i had 3 people i was going to invite (3 potental customers) and didn’t bother due to this change – why should i drum up more customers for Anet when they treat the currrent ones like this.
So i’ve already done a small part to show my disapproval of this change, i’ve lost Anet 3 potental customers – it’s not much and i bet Anet will never notice, but it’s something.
I really hope all the people against this keep going/posting and don’t just cave in when the content comes out.
Well, for me at least, I know I’m still going to play. My alternatives for an open world fantasy MMO with good action combat (TERA need not apply, not being able to move while attacking sucks) are extremely limited. Until Neverwinter comes out, probably.
That said, I definitely won’t be purchasing any gems if this whole “going back on the entire design of the game” nonsense continues.
Which is kinda why i posted the video, loads are saying “well i’m leaving” or “if you don’t like it leave” but just because we are upset doesn’t mean we should leave. We can still play and we can still “whine” on the forums as much as we can, and we can show our disapproval in other ways (not buying gems etc) all while still playing the game.
Basically as the video states, whining works a lot better than just leaving and we need to keep whining until we get heard.
If i was Anet i would be both horrified and happy.
Horrified that the 1st new piece of content is being largely negativly received due to a design choice with regards to gear grind.
Happy that so many people are actully defending the original design manifesto when it comes to gear grind.
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In saying that, if i was Anet this gear grind would have never happened in the 1st place.
We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.” – Colin Johanson… Pants… on… Fire.
I’m wondering if making it a sig would be infraction worthy?, i can’t see any rules against it but considering how things go it’s best to ask.
Considering the entire Manifesto was about options, and the new gear is not mandatory, there was no lie.
We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.” – Colin Johanson
Yeah thanks a lot Anet for dumping one of the main draws of the game. Great work. /sarcasm
Whatever happened to this…. http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success#more-8572
“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.” – Colin Johanson
Yeah, that’s quite a statement which is now completly wrong, the last bolded part is sig worthy now IMO.
“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.” – Colin Johanson
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The last bolded part is key here.
An idea I had for Ascended gear is to have normal exotic stats PLUS magic find. Then you will get something out of it but not have more power than people without it.
That’s what i was thinking, the picture shows magic gear only, if they kept ascended to magic gear only it wouldn’t be that bad.
I’m very excited and gonna pwn a lot of people in WvWvW w/ my new Ascended gears to whoever doesn’t want to do the new dungeon & QQers!
<3 Anet!
This is my other concern, this can create pvp imbalance.
I actully hope it does create an imbalance, this will force them to make a change to remove the imbalance – they can’t just say “well if you want an even playing field in WvWvW, go do dungeons”.
So you turn your current ones into ascended, then what happens to your current gear? You can’t use it elsewhere? Aren’t you still losing gold? What about my current upgrade slots, that cost just as much/more gold to get a full set of “of the ____”?
I don’t think this was very well thought through. Just a reactionary response to a system that we have no real substantial information on other than it exists.
You can use your gear anywhere else, it just gets upgraded to have an extra infusion slot needed for the new dungeon that only takes effect in the new dungeon.
I thought it was explained pretty clearly, i have no idea how you came to the conclusion that it would make your items not work outside of the dungeon.
I think you should hold off on this suggestion until we know exactly how this gear is going to drop/work/etc.
Also your post is confusing. You mean you’ll need to go into a different UI equipment screen to see what my current items are in a dungeon or something?
Why not just suggest gear like PvP gear that’s only worn in endgame designated dungeons or something.
How is it confusing?, it’s the same as posted in the blog apart from a stat increase with a way to turn your current exotic items into Ascended items to get the infusion slot needed for higher levels in the new dungeon, it’s pretty simple.
And i disagree on holding off on the suggestion, once it’s live they will not take it out and we already know how it’s going to be as they’ve explained it.
This IMO would please all, as the dungeon grinders would still have a grind to play with and the rest would be on a level playing field. A change like this would be simple, quick and help all IMO.
Please don’t turn it into an anti Ascended thread, it’s a valid suggeston to keep the items BUT make it so it’s not an actual gear grind outside of the dungeon.
The new dungeon drops Ascended items that have an infusion slot – basically as it is now (with one difference, stated at the end).
The new dungeon also drops “infusion cores”, with enough of these cores you use the mystic forge to combine them with your current gear to give them “The power of the Ascended” to turn them into Ascended items that have an extra infusion slot.
The catch?, they all have the same stats as exotic level gear and the only upgrade is the extra infusion slot, this makes it so people haven’t just wasted loads of gold/time on items already as they can be upgraded to Ascended items if the want/need to. And people haven’t wasted a load of gold/time as unless your in the new dungeon in the harder levels the infusion slot won’t be needed (you will earn infusion slot items on the way from easy to hard) – to be clear outside of the dungeon only the infusion slot won’t work.
The outcome?, peoples current exotic items will be just as good as anyone elses in every other aspect of the game (prevents gear grind if you don’t like dungeons) and the new slot items will only be needed as you level up in the dungeon (which again, you will get as you go through the dungeon so this is fine).
Simple – ascended items stay in, infusion slots stay in, infusion items stay in and the gear grind stays out.
It could have ben so much better – and simple – and much better for everyone in the end (the people who bought the game for no gear grind, and the people who want a grind).
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New dungeon drops Ascended items that have an infusion slot.
New dungeon drops “infusion cores”, with enough of these cores you use the mystic forge to combine them your current gear to give them the power of the ascended to turn them into acended items that have an infusion slot.
The catch, they all have the same stats and the only upgrade is the infusion slot, this makes it so people haven’t just wasted loads of gold on items already as they can be upgraded. And people haven’t wasted a load of time as unless your in that dungeon in the harder levels (which will earn you infusion items on the way) there current items will be just as good as anyone elses in every other aspect of the game.
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Simple.
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Alas though, it’s very clear they just don’t care as they are clearly ignoring us all and merging us into one big ignore thread.
it was OK for everyone that the game have fine->masterwork->rare->exotic gear progression, and now when a.net decides to put one more in between exotic and legendary for whatever reason ppl start kittening and saying that ‘they will leave the game’ and ‘ask for refund’, oh c’mon, you cant be serious.
1 more tier set != gear treadmill. qqmore.
The 1st part is gear progession, the 2nd part is a gear treadmill.
Gear progession is when you progress in the game to get to the best items and it has an end (in this case it was exotic as legendary items shared the same stats), a gear treadmill is when they keep pushing the bar further and further back meaning you can never get the best items as it always changes (in this case it’s adding accended items and who knows what else in the future).
What grinds my gears is they left it until a few days until release to tell us this, i bought the guild backpack a few days ago and 2 exotic rings (over 10 gold combined – not much for some, but for a casual like me a lot) What we need is a way to upgrade our exotic gear to the same stats, so our current purchases aren’t in vein.
Like the new back piece, it should require the 5 gold guild backpack as part of its formula, and perhaps another mystic forge formula for the ring that requires an exotic ring and the stats are based off the type of ring it is (knights, beserker etc).
What if we could “upgrade” Exotics into Ascended gear. Maybe something like an Ascendant Stone that could be crafted via crafting or Mystic Forge. Maybe we can get the recipe through a series of fun quests. The mats would the nothing too crazy, maybe just a bit harder than making exotic armor or weapons. You can then apply this upgrade to your exotic armor to turn it into ascended gear with the equivalent stat values.
That way, people with exotics don’t have to throw them away.
Not a bad suggestion (still not as good as doing away with the whole thing though), but alas i bet it will never happen.
Let’s hope they reconsider, and keep this only for accessories. I mean, accessories were already weird when it came to stats anyways. (Triforge anyone? Backpacks?)
If this will be the only progression, then I don’t mind. I’m hoping they do not do this for armor or weapons because it would mean we would have to use transmutation stones for literally EVERYTHING!
This so much, as much as i hate it we know it’s for the accessories slots and even weapons so far, all they need to do is make it so there is no accended armor AND remove the upcoming accended weapons and it won’t be so bad (still bad, just not as much).
This is STUPID. I bought the game on the promise on no gear progression.
Well I guess you weren’t paying any attention whatsoever to what went on from levels 1-80.
I mean I really don’t get it. People are complaining about stuff that we realized half a year ago in betas… that it’s a really cool game but it’s still a typical RPG stat-based affair and not the coming of Super Mario meets Zelda meets Asheron’s Call meets wonderland that is fun to imagine.
This is really, really, really old news and no GW2 did not just turn a corner into this stuff.
It’s still a cool game. I don’t see the big deal unless people are still chasing a dream and not adjusting to the reality that’s been here.
He/she worded it wrong, he/she said progression when he/she should have said gear treadmill/power creep, there is a very big difference (and it has been explained more than once in this thread).
only mmo where people complain when new gear is added.
Because it’s one of the only MMOs to advertise that it wouldn’t have a gear treadmill, we wouldn’t mind it if was new gear for looks only, or maybe even new gear with the same stats and a infuse slot for a dungeon – but this is a gear treadmill in a game that was advertised to not have one.
“We have always worked hard to create a sense of satisfying progression rather than gear grind and this new item progression initiative is no exception. By adding challenging new combat mechanics to end-game content and ways to mitigate those mechanics through gear progression for high-end players, we can add personal progression without making the game feel like an endless treadmill of gear that is just out of your reach.”
Can anyone explain this part of the post to me please? I’ve read it 5 times now and I can’t seem to understand what she is trying to say..
Yeah i read that bit and was just “erm???”, it’s basically saying we created something that isn’t a gear grind, but here is a gear grind.
I’m gonna say it, i urge all who aren’t happy to not leave the game, just stick to the standard exotic level items and ignore only the new dungeon and nothing more.
Heck start a guild called “original exotics only” [OxO] or “Orignal exotics and proud” [OxaP], make it a personal challange to stay on the base exotic level and show Anet that you don’t like a gear grind that way.
In a few months time when i beat a fully acended geared person in a 1 on 1 in WvWvW i’ll have my “/lol beaten by a fully original exotic player” emote ready and waiting.
Having to grind out a new tier of gear to remain relevant in WvW isn’t my idea of fun.
Exactly.
I don’t like dungeons, i do enjoy other areas of the game and WvWvW and i really don’t like the fact i will basically have to grind something i don’t like to get items to remain on a level playing field in areas i do like.
It’s cool the back item is via the forge (and again it better use the 5 gold guild back item as a base) but to make the rings (and from the sounds of it other items in the future aswell) gated to the dungeons is just wrong, very wrong.
Players will be able to acquire Ascended Rings in the Fractals of the Mists dungeon
And if i want the higher stats for WvWvW/other PvE content and don’t like to do dungeons?.
It’s nice we can get the ascended back items via the forge (and they better use the guild back items in the formula!) but gating off the rings (other future items) to the dungeon is just wrong.
What’s annoying me most of all is you can only get this via the dungeon and all the stats go to any aspect of the game, meaning you NEED to do dungeons to remain on a level playing field in other areas of the game that aren’t this dungeon.
That is a grind grind/gate for dungeons. That is, in my opinion, bad form and for sure against their “Manifesto” that they were so proud of from the beginning.
Not only that but the base stats are better and each update will have more, meaning a fully acended player will easiily outgear a fully exotic player.
Not happy about this at all, more so the fact that just 2 days ago i spent 5 gold on the guild back item and now it’s already out of date come this gear treadmill (i mean update in a few days).
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Anyways, so much for the “wait for the update to complain posts”, we’ve been proven correct and they are bringing in a gear treadmill/power creed into the game that was ADVERTISED to not have one.
Thanks Anet, you’ve saved me some money as i won’t be giving you anymore via your gem store.
Half of you are the typical 2012 MMO players that whine when it’s too hard like this should be a sideways console game that gives you everything. The other half is like hell ya bring on real progression. Either way the devs can’t win.
Personally, put more true vertical progression in the game and give it more depth. More depth= good game. more casual=more console/cash shop genre.
You do know there are others ways to make a game harder than just making things hit harder and needing better gear to deal with it right? (which in turn makes all others things easier).
People are upset because we got sold a product with a main selling point of it not having a gear treadmill, they can make the game harder if they want (bring that on!) but they really don’t need to bring in the gear treadmill to do it.
I’ll say this, despite some (not many though) posts being a bit rude (on both sides of the fence), it is very nice to see a lot of people standing up for what was a key selling point of the game.
So many posts against a gear treadmill/power creed makes me fell happy inside.
Perhaps (this is just a guess…) they decided to increase the stats first but now reverse their plans about the Ascended Armor
I certainly hope so, i left Rift/WoW for GW2 because i got fed up with constantly having to get new tiers of armor after they got put into the game, you spend ages getting a great set of armor and then, “new content next week and a new tier of armor!!!”.
I came to GW2 because they said they wouldn’t do this, and after only 2 and a half months it seems like they’re going back on what was a key selling point for the game and what was one of the main reasons why i purchased it.
Yeah Im wondering this as well. With this much fear, rage, and disquiet why in the world has that blog post not been posted?
This delay only leads credence to it being a gear treadmill type choice and them having to reevaluate the decision with so many people saying “Im done”.
It’s more likely a case of rewording it to try and make the gear grind sound more appealing (despite advertising not having this a main selling point).
@ Angry Angus, when it comes to changing one of the main advertised features of the game i really don’t think it’s to early at all to start complaining about it, and no way should we wait until this is in the game before we start to voice our opinions on it.
If it is indeed a gear treadmill/power creep that’s coming, then seeing as we were sold the game on the basis this wouldn’t happen – we have every right to to start to complain about it as soon as we get wind of a chance of it.
Ever since I read this in the morning, I havent logged in. I just found it difficult to log in knowing that any gear I obtain on my main might be replaced in a few days.
Going to log in now, on my alts I’d imagine, but I haven’t had the urge to log in and obtain some dungeon gear today just because of this.
Exactly the same, i was going after some more armor to make a new exotic beserker set (i just finished my knights set), but what’s the point when in a few days i maybe able to get even better stats – earning/buying them now would be a waste of time and effort.
