Guild Wars 2

Here’s another way to look at it:

All necro builds are fighting over scraps from the changes/fixes table. Only TWO of the changes in the patch were aimed at necros – the highly exclusive terror buff, and the reanimator “buff”. Tell me, are you dancing for joy? Is it offering more than occasional and fleeting utility? No?

The reason is that small fixes for MM builds don’t matter until the big issues get fixed. They really especially don’t matter to those people who are staying out of MM until the big issues get fixed.

Meanwhile, there are a wide array of small fixes to NON mm traits and skills that could actually impact how people are building now. If all we’re going to get is crumbs, at least let the crumbs go to someplace that’s useful for more necros than just you. Heck, some of those small changes would even help you guys, like buffing axe 1’s underwhelming vulnerability stacking.

Edit: Heck, look at the two posts above mine for proof. Both of them are focused on big changes, because that’s what you need before the smaller changes would impact more than a few niche players.

See how much I’m helping, anet? I’ve already found the 10 people who actually like minions, so you can go convert them to ranger or something.

Don’t ever, ever, EVER force a player to take a pet if they don’t WANT a pet, ESPECIALLY if you have dungeon mechanics that turn that pet against you.

+1

On what kinds of blocks does defender’s flame proc?
Aegis, shelter, Shield of Wrath obviously. Probably protector’s strike.

But what about projectile reflectors like Sanctuary, Zealot’s Defense, Shield of Absorption, Zealot’s Defense? What about the reflect from Wall of Reflection?

Does Might of the Protector use exactly the same allowable block list as defender’s flame?

Hanzo.9624:

Mesmer is arguably the most OP class in the game and they have a huge list of BUFFS… If anything we were nerfed if you count the defiant change to Fear. I honestly can’t figure out why they would even do this.

For the first of those, please remember that mesmers were nerfed last patch. I guess anet thought it best to re-adjust after seeing the effects.

For the second, it’s actually pretty obvious. They want defiant-stripping to play a bigger role in battles, making them more strategic. Once defiant is down, then we can fear. Besides, our fear is so pathetically brief they were probably trying to nerf one of the OTHER fear-using classes and we just got hit by a stray bullet. If we WERE the target, that’d logically have to imply that someone was paying attention to us.

And zoke, you were never supposed to be able to dodge the arrows by merely walking slowly to one side.

I’m serious. Don’t do it.

I am not and will never be a minion master. Even if the art didn’t look like it was straight out of Nick at Nite, spending my days supporting bots isn’t what I chose the class for.

Many of the people on the forums complain about minion AI… but back in the game they’re playing conditionmancers or freezers or power shrouds. The complaints aren’t because they’re secretly yearning to load their skillslots with blood fiends, it’s because the error is so glaringly obvious that we can’t help but point it out as visible proof of the neglect the class is getting.

So don’t fix MM’s and think we’ll be happy. We won’t. There will be like five necros who go “gosh, I better go change over to a minion build!” unless you screw up and make the minions OP. Especially since we’d then have to trait OUT of mm every time we enter a dungeon that feeds on minions.

Proof? Look at the patch notes thread. You addressed the insignificant issue of jagged horror life length, but ignored the far more pressing issue that you’re forcing them down our throats. Result? Anger. Change this already to let us opt out. I promise you that there aren’t any builds in the build thread that you’re going to screw up by moving reanimator to a higher minor or even to a major slot(with buffs).

Instead, fix the more substantial issues. You can find them easily, it’s not like we’re hiding the problems, it’s just that bashing minions is easy. We didn’t realize that you’d fix ONLY the minions, or we’d have kept our mouths shut.

Leave the minions dead and buried where they belong. And stop forcing us to use them!

Actually, this patch can be viewed as simple neglect. The fear change probably wasn’t even aimed at us, and the conditionmancer-only bonus damage might have been meant as a sop to us specifically. The underwater crap was obviously a larger project, hence having nothing to do with us specifically. The speed boost was part of a larger suite of changes as well.

The only necromancer-specific change was making sure the widely-hated jagged horror survived long enough to cause trouble more consistently for non-minionmasters who dare use a staff. That’s it.

Apparently our forums have more invisibility than the class does.

Regardless if anyone has a single anecdote where once it might have been useful, the central point is that it is bad game design to force a minion on a player if it can be used against them.

Bad. Design.

/thread

For all those complaining about the underwater changes or saying they prove Anet has it’s necro priorities wrong:

They added finishers and fields across the board to all classes. It has nothing to do with necros, it proves nothing about necros.

Fox.3469:

no manticore what we are saying is that guardian is one of the best escapers in WvWvW and people keep ignoring it. We have by far the best condition removal, invunerability and damage negation.

That’s EXACTLY the kind of response I’m talking about. “guardian is one of the best escapers… we have the best damage negation.” WTF?

I can see how if you bend logic like a pretzel you can call condition removal an escape mechanic… and therefore Necros are frigging Houdini, right? But damage negation? Seriously?

Fox.3469:

is by far superior in dealing with multiple foes and running away from them (if not a zerg of 50) then ANY other class.

Bare naked assertion might cut it for the true believers…

Fox.3469:

As for playing melee in WvWvW, do not overextend,

That’s really great advice for a melee class. Do not overextend. How exactly do you manage that?

Fox.3469:

i’m a melee guardian, and i pick up 20-30 kills in zergs without even dieing once, just because so many people are stupid, overextend and i lock em and pull em in my zerg.

Oh, so melee classes should run around inside the zerg doing jack all hoping to make someone blunder into your range. I suppose that’s one way to survive. Killing someone who’s in the middle of the zerg is definitely not a totally redundant skill or anything.

Fox.3469:

There is not a single class that can run into an enemy zerg and not die, but guardian is by far the best as surviving mistakes

As long as “Survive” does not mean “Escape”.

Look, I don’t completely agree with the OP, but do him the service of actually addressing what he says. If you want to make the case that condition removal is an escape mechanic, then make it, don’t assert it.

And definitely don’t respond “What do you mean, you can’t escape if you need to? Why, I killed 3 deleveled thieves in the jumping puzzle once!”

So far, the entire thread’s gone like this:

OP: This class has bad escape mechanics so you die instead of escaping, unlike several other classes.

Reading Comprehension Expert 1: LOL you are complaining that you can’t win a one on one, L2P!

Reading Comprehension Expert 2: OMG what are you talking about if no one focus fires me in the zerg, I don’t die!

OP: That’s not what I’m saying. I can win 1 on 1, I’m talking about when I’m focused. We have to get close, that’s our design. But we can’t get OUT of melee if we need to.

Reading Comprehension Expert 3: Didn’t you read what 1 and 2 said? You’re focusing on the negative! Bad player! Noob! L2P! Error… Error… Forumbot Chestthumper Golem 0.4 experiencing negative logic vortex! Errrrrrroooooorrrrr……

Torch skills/talents don’t make much sense. One of it’s two skills (or three, if you count Torch 4’s secondary mode) doesn’t cause burning, and the one where you set yourself on fire doesn’t proc the talent that READS “when you are set on fire”. I’d like to be able to keep my opponents alight for a reasonable amount of time with a torch, thank you. Oh, and radiant fire is just sad. Really, really sad.

Trungaling, are you finding it difficult to keep your targets burning with a slow weapon like the hammer?

I wish this board had an edit function. I usually think of improvements only after I hit post. Here’s the updated build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUEQNAW7flYgKCHHyvDgIFRuArHE0g+D7BGzI8vFA;TkAqYMxIixGjLGZMLIGlszA

Torch 4(2nd mode) hits like a truck, and if you get enemies in your face trigger Torch 4/1st mode then Torch 5 before swapping back to staff.

Edit: Aha. Had to add cloudfront to my noscript exception list. Thanks!

Ninja’d by your requirement for no GS. In that case, use scepter/torch for offhand. Staff for multiple mobs, scepter 2/torch 4 for single enemy.

GS has AoE, strikes acceptably quickly, and has a gap closer, all of which are important in farming. This pairs well with staff’s symbol quickness for traveling longer distances than the gap closers allow. Finally, unlike the hammer both weapons benefit greatly from 2h mastery.

What about something like this?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUEQJAWRlYgKCHHyvDgIFRuArHE0gFE7BGzI8vFA;TkAqaM1IqxWjrGZNLCGEs/A

If only it were that simple. Power scales differently between weapons, and also based on rotation.

General rule of thumb:
Power is usually better than precision. UNLESS:

• You take proc-on-crit traits that are important to you.
• You invest significantly into critdam or the Valor line, in which case you want to not have all that critdam locked away behind a low precision.

If you follow that guide, you’ll be either at or close to your optimal damage.

On the other hand, it’s nice when your swarm fills your DS bar every time you run over a rabbit =)

So:

JH’s only die until you get to a level where having them live becomes a liability, the AI only fails when you get to a point where the MM bonuses are useful, the problems with MM are so bad that no one except you notices ninja fixes, and the only place that you think they cause problems just happens to be the major endgame area and in fractals dungeons, which happen to encompass most of the non-PVP endgame content.

I don’t see the problem either!

That might work, since both of the grandmaster death magic majors are minion-specific.

Tips:

• Make a choice between Power or Condition Damage, and let that choice influence your traits, skills, weapons and gear choices.

• Necros tend to get better results from both tough and vit than other classes do, you can stack either or balance them both.

• Be prepared to change your strategy from minion master when you hit your first dungeons.

What they probably will fix:

• Gluttony rounding error.
• Ranger pet fix that somehow manages to not improve minions.
• Dead silence.

What they could fix easily but won’t:

• Disable reanimator pending a more permanent fix.
• Improve Axe 1 damage and/or double either the stacks or duration of the vulnerability, because they nerfed vuln ages ago and never adjusted axe 1 to compensate.

What they should do that might actually require work:

• Buff reanimator to make it regen minions too then make it a major adept so no one is forced to take it. Move Dark Armor to Master Minor, and Protection of the horde down to Adept Minor where someone might be in danger of noticing the effect.

• read “Necro skills, balance and opinions” and let that be your bible.

• Provide immunity to fear in one of the necro fear traits.

• Fix the condition stacking problem already. It’s been HOW long since you could take 2 poisoners or burners into a dungeon?

So, what’s the magic number of complaints before we see any action on this?

We’ve laid out the reasons why forcing this trait on people is a bad idea, and pointed out that it shuts down an entire trait line for a major segment of the population: Dungeon runners who don’t want to skip several important ones.

It’s time for a temporary patch unless a permanent fix is imminent and no, fixing the AI is not a fix for this problem.

Pets of any kind should never be mandatory. It’s well past time to take care of the problem or at least slap a band-aid on it.

One of the classic examples of this is Warrior’s banners and shouts. The most powerful abilities for each are in the exact same line, all the way up to grandmaster.

Better to get the 33% move speeds with horn and spectral walk. I wouldn’t argue with a little more signet speed, but our theme isn’t really a scout one like those two.

It’s the same old story of a major gameplay change not being followed up correctly.

AoE was capped, but portal wasn’t. Since the AoE cap isn’t going away, then portal needs to match.

I’d be ok with a 1:10 ratio (double the AoE cap) limit on portals. So would anyone who’s not trying to abuse the system. If you want to port in 50 people, you get 5 mesmers inside. If you can’t do that, then you should l2p.

Anet put in supplies, engines and the like for a reason. If you’re crying at the prospect of actually having to interdict the supplies instead of magically bypassing 75% of the game mechanics via the power of one spell alone, then perhaps you could try my little pony MMORPG.

Actually, I thought that D/W or D/F was used more than D/D.

Mainhand D is better for power builds, while offhand D gives conditions, so it’s kind of an awkward fit. Moreover, offhand D is a 900 range weapon while main works at pointblank to 600.

It’s a great heal even when not consuming conditions. If you really must condition yourself, use a corruption like Blood Is Power.

Right. It’s ok in PvE, because it can serve as a tank and a heal. My experiences with it was that you almost never get both benefits though: Either the mobs focus you and you need the heal, or they focus the mob and you don’t need the heal until after it’s dead.

Not a complaint, just warning newbies that they might wanna upgrade to consume conditions when they can.

Did he take falling damage? =)

Lets accept your numbers. 37 is what percent of 650? That’s right… 6%. And that’s if you round up. Oh, and it doesn’t crit or benefit from or contribute to any other form of damage. You’d be better off with a single strike of might, a single proc of retri, or literally a single serving of any other damage source that exists in the game.

I think you can’t look past the fact that it’s free to arrive at the fact that it’s useless.

And no, the trait is NOT free. If it was free you wouldn’t have to click the points button to get it. The rational way to evaluate it is to count both the major and the minor as the cost of 10 points.

If the trait literally read “+5% damage with axes”, it would be a better trait, because at least that damage can be calced into crits or buffed with might. But if it DID read “+5% damage with axes”, no one would pick it if they had a choice.

No, it wouldn’t be the same thing because then you could drop THREE in a row with a staff in hand. But I was counting the mark from staff as a separate heal, that’s true. Which it is.

The point isn’t so much whether it would actually be OP as whether it would be more vulnerable to a nerf. I think it would be: you obviously disagree.

Infinite numbers of anything is inherently imbalanced.

Limit the amount of people per portal to 10 would merely mean that you’d need to get 2 mesmers in for 20 people, 3 for 30, etc…

What, that’s too difficult for you?

Well, now we know who truly has a problem adjusting to game difficulty.

Condi damage and power damage don’t mix very well, and Plague and offhand dagger are condi damage while MH dagger and Shroud are power damage.

But here’s some ideas that might help:
Chilling darkness (blinds apply chill) works very well with plague, because it’s a mobile blind dispenser. Your other sources of blind are offhand dagger and Well of Darkness.

Sounds like a Mr. Freeze – style build might be just your speed.

Ranged wells, marks and lich should work ok in WvW.

However, since big zergs that have some people focus firing are usually bad news for a necro(you do not have invincibility and they know it), what you might want to do instead is roll with a smaller group to contest the smaller objectives, where your strengths would shine better.

What mammoth said. And…

Actually, the 10s cooldown may be protecting this trait from being nerfed. Since a single mark heals a significant amount, getting two in a row would be overpowered in the same way that the guardian roll was overpowered, and look what happened to it recently.

Anet stated when they “adjusted” Guardian rolls that they don’t intend heals that aren’t actually in the heal slot to be powerful, and being able to drop 2 marks in less than 10 seconds would cross the line.

It’s generally for the best if you pick your trait lines for the traits themselves and almost ignore the stats, which you can use gear to tweak. Let that guide your decisions, and you’ll do ok.

> I don’t think it’s in anyones best interests, let alone yours, for you to be belittling people dude.

Oh please. This thread, and those who lurk within, are all about belitting people who criticize necro, because that’s all they have.

Do you think “just because you want a I-win button” is a reasonable or logical criticism? No. It’s merely belittling the other person. Telling people that their negative posts are the reason people flee necro? More belittling. L2P? The whole reason for that phrase to exist is to belittle others while keeping your own posts safely content-free.

That’s far from a comprehensive list, because this thread’s main contribution to the necro discussion is to belittle people who have the “wrong” opinions.

Check Kildari.2480’s build in the build thread if you like staying in Shroud a lot, or do a search on “wellomancer”. Both of those styles work pretty well in solo PvE.

This thread is anti-mindless necro hating
It now mindless necro excusing.
Lies are bad no matter who speak them.

You head no hurt now?

You see, this is exactly what I’m talking about.

Necro fights like a ninja, because it DOESN’T invis and backstab? Because as we all know, ninjas never go into stealth and they would never backstab anyone.

It’s true that mindless necro-haters exist, but they don’t compare with the literally demented will-to-believe found in mindless necro-boosters.

The point is you aren’t helping your cause by matching crazy hating with a triple-helping of your own crazy. People shopping for a class are more likely to be turned off by rampant dishonesty, so it’s better to let the opposition hold that distinction.

Axe shines better when you have a good secondary weapon so you can do axe 2 and 3 + offhands and immediately switch. Axe 1 might have been good before the vuln nerf, but anet has this pattern of nerfing something then not compensating the skills they affect for the loss.

If you nail all 5 targets with axe 3, the retal will last until the skill comes back up.

Ohhh….. K.

Future debaters please note: Asking someone to prove that 200 damage every 10 seconds(axe 2)+ 266 TOTAL for the next 8 seconds of cooldown(axe 1) doesn’t = BIG BIG DAMAGE is now trolling.

Only if the lots of small numbers add up to a big number, and that’s the part you’re forgetting.

Well, yes. I do want big numbers. Because big numbers make mobs fall down, and small numbers make them giggle.

Oh, and dagger 2 and axe 2 aren’t even rapid. They’re bursty, which isn’t the same thing.

You mean dagger 2 and axe 2, not axe/dagger, because that would imply the other skills on those weapons are rapid, which they aren’t (dagger auto might qualify depending on how much you want to stretch the truth).

It’s clear you aren’t doing the math, because anyone who saw an explicitly listed “One of your Axe attacks does 3% more damage)” listed as a trait selection would run far, far away before selecting it.

Guess what else can’t be negated?

The 30x more damage that you’ll get for hitting a target with retal up.

It doesn’t seem like much, because it isn’t much. There is no amount of explaining or excusing or logic-ignoring you can do to pretend that in any universe that has math, a trait can do the same damage at L1 as it does at L80 and not be completely broken at some point in that continuum.

Fanboyism can be subtle. This isn’t.

Look at other class boards, they complain too! Carefully avoids discussion of the relative validity of said complaints. Ranger complaint threads might be just a bit more justified than Warrior complaint threads, people!

Note: The above is never used alongside All these negative posts is the only reason why everyone isn’t a Necro!, lest someone with common sense ask why someone would flee Necro on seeing the complaint threads, then roll any other class, because they have complaint threads too. Apparently our threads have better fear duration than our class does.

> So we are… not broken… we are just not working?

You’ve got to understand the language.

Well there’s no I-win button on a 28s cooldown = “I can’t actually refute or explain away the class comparison you just made, so I’ll just call you a button masher.”

Note how this formula doesn’t require the poster to explain what 3 buttons, or 9 buttons, or 257 necro buttons you need to press to win. Because it’s complicated and stuff.

Master the Death Shroud = More dodging than the class he’s defending possesses. At least his arguments have stability!