seems like you’re really frustrated with the class. why don’t you play another one for a while? or maybe take a break from this game. take some time off to cool your jets. then when you come back to the realization that this class is borderline op, log back in.
Yep. That martyr act is getting old.
And yet, no one is even trying to argument how and why i would be wrong.
As i said, people here just accept whatever the devs do.
And it isn’t a matter of time – unless they change their mind about the class balance (mainly on the penalities for the mere existance of kits, since it is that what is weighting down all the other utility types) the situation will be always the same. An utter mess.
No SAB makes me a sad quaggan. :-(
The funny thing is that elementalists and engineers should be the versatile classes. And yet, about sigils, they’re going to be the less versatile ones.
No one’s buying the hyperbole. If most other people are enjoying their Engis and are successful in all game modes, couldn’t that mean we’re not that messed up? That you may actually be over reacting? Is the fact that many of us are having success with our Engineers meaningless?
Successful in all game modes? Oh man, and then i’m the one using hyperboles.
I consider myself lucky if i can even see engineers outside of pvp, and they are seen in pvp only because of a few builds.
We’re not that messed up? A class that is balanced under assumptions upon assumptions?
Would it made sense if they nerfed the warriors’ greatsword damage because using forceful greatsword gives you might? No.
Except that’s what they do everytime with engineers, particularly with the grenade kit and grenadier. Under others even more stupid assumptions, like players standing still on a puddle of poison for 5 seconds put by the traited kit…and then nerfing the base one.
Or nerfing unrelated skills, like net turret for supply crate. Even when it uses a different skill on its own (and we know that because we’ve had previous bugs for that exact reason).
Or the kit nerf made in the past due to sigil processings, while doing nothing like that when they give two-handed weapons a second sigil.
But just even the fact that we have a single weapon due of the optional possibility of having more spending utility slots. Who else is balanced upon optional things? No one.
It is like saying that warriors must have medium armor because they can use endure pain. Makes sense? No.
Our balancing is completely incoherent with the one of all the other classes, and yet people here just accept it, that’s what i can’t understand.
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Or maybe it is because he truly loves the class that he hates seeing it nerfed repeatedly for senseless reasons. Patience isn’t infinite, after all.
Because it was just an excuse to nerf gold from events and from champ bags, mostly to deter champ trains. No one has usually got to repair in doing those, but they always include waypoints to use. Thus, a nerf upon their gainings.
Because they didnt have access to protection
Only via reactive traits or runes, thus they’re either random or they are in response to an opponent’s action. The major offender here would be Protection Injection…but if you are really being interrupted every 5 seconds, i doubt you’re actually holding the point, protection or not.
And imho, not giving reliable sources of on-demand protection was done on purpose, seeing the effects of the old juggernaut and AR. Since they both changed, it would make sense for that to change in the future, too.
high toughness + healing
If geared for it, sure. But since you aren’t mentioning vitality, you’re having quite a reduced health pool to start with, further reduced at the 25% treshhold.
and knockbacks right? You know those kinds of things that make power builds less efective too…
And enemies can have stability (you mention protection for the engineer, but it isn’t like the enemies can’t have boons as well).
Beside using control skills as well toward the engineer (albeit processing protection injection, it has still a cooldown, thus repeated CC aren’t actually a bad idea). Since those engineers probably won’t have elixir B to process stability.
Obviously a build like the one you mention can’t do anything related to damage and can just try to resist there and knock the opponent away. Thus something only effective in pvp and related to the nature of the mode itself (meaning that the change outside pvp is still unwarranted).
This isn’t a blind nerf.
Players, Engi mains included, have been calling for an AR (and other total immunity to some degree) nerfs for a long time and it has been one of the few legitimate balance calls to appear on these forums.
That’s your opinion. Considering you also think those other nerfs we’re getting are fine – like poison grenade and net turret, despite actually being nonsensical and completely incoherent compared to how other classes are balanced – i guess i can’t agree.
It is a nerf aimed to the average player. The one who just spams every skill and to whose “timing a condition burst” is an alien concept.
It was an overpowered trait no matter how you look at it. It doesn’t mean anything that one specific build utilized it the most.
The nerf is well-deserved, whether it’s PvP, WvW, or PvE.
Overpowered? By itself the trait is quite bad, instead.
It was used only due to the condition meta. Obviously it ends up seemingly strong if no one exploits its weak point – that is, direct damage burstability due to the low hp treshhold.
The drawback was there – people just didn’t want to make use of it, and instead whined all the time.
And instead of shifting the meta, the devs made the easier choice of nerfing it to oblivion.
Also i would care to repeat – they had other choices, many of them were proposed to change it in various threads. Ones that wouldn’t have made it so useless.
That you are somehow spinning the nerfing of AR as a great catastrophe of the loss of the last vestiges of Engineer’s cooldown-based condition removal is facetious and misrepresents the issue. That Engineers are somehow this underdog class with active developer bias against it is also false, because this shave had extremely low impact on every other Engineer build other than Decap. Condi Engineers didn’t run AR, nor did Power Engineers. Even triple kit bunker (RIP Kit Refinement Quad/Triple Kit Bunker) does not run AR because Backpack Regenerator/Invigorating Speed/Protection Injection mitigates so much more at higher percentages of HP than AR does.
I’d actually argue that with this shave, Triple Kit bunker with Healing Turret will make a resurgence where AR decap was previously far outcompeting all other viable Engineer bunker builds.
If it was that change alone, i could agree.
But when i see engineers nerfed for the most stupid motives, then i get quite kittened off.
Want to talk about grenades? Poison grenade is nerfed under the assumption that if one uses the kit fully traited and shoots them in melee and the enemies stays still, then it gets poisoned for quite a bit (on a skill that basically does only that).
How in the world this balancing even makes sense? You can destroy any and every skill this way. You are not supposed to stay still in the first place. It is like whining that hundred blades is damaging if you get all the hits – well, you shouldn’t have stood still in the first place.
Net turret? That is getting nerfed because…dunno. They talked about balance issues with supply crate, but that actually uses different turrets from the utility ones – that was a problem in the first place with some traits. So there wasn’t even a reason to nerf that one.
The general balancing of grenades, done over the traited version rather than the base one? Find me any other utility or weapon where they balance like that. There aren’t.
And that’s putting aside the whole issue of fixed penalities for optional utilities/kits (again, no other class is balanced upon similar assumptions).
With regard to Pro-Warrior bias, do keep in mind that 5% from Merciless Hammer, 15% from Arcing Arrow will do much to reduce the peak damage output of the Hambow triple stance build; which were the outliers for something built so defensively.
Combine this with the proposed increased cast time and visibility of Pin Down and the Hambow build is now a lot weaker. That being said, I maintain that the problems reside in Healing Signet as triple stance Hambow is significantly weaker when running Healing Surge or Mending, yet absurd with HS. #8%notenough etc. etc.
And yet they’re doing nothing for the holy trinity of healing signet, adrenal health and cleansing ire, even if there were even more people whining about those than for AR. Since the major problem is their crazy regen paired with easy removal via cleansing ire (despite them should be the class weak versus conditions…), rather then those other skills.
Your propensity for pointedly ignoring significant changes to extant apex predator builds whilst spinning shaves that do not impinge on the majority of other Engineer builds as some kind of apocalypse undermines your position.
Or maybe i’m just more realist than you when i see those changes.
You think they’ll fix engineers’ issues with condition removals, now. Sure, like they did with stability when they removed the old juggernaut.
That is, a year later.
Or like they fixed turrets. What was that, nine months? Assuming they’ll work after the patch, i mean.
Feel free to wait for them. In the meantime, FOTM players will just have shifted to another class. And whoever plays it because it likes the engineer class get screwed.
I would just like to touch on the point that nerfing AR somehow nerfed Engineer’s condition removal. There is a significant difference between condition removal and condition immunity (Or in this case, condition duration reduction, which is a mitigating stat as opposed to a condition eliminating trait or skill). AR Does not remove conditions, it makes one (pre-nerf) immune to newly applied conditions which is an entirely different kettle of fish.
But it still means you will have to heal less conditions over a range of time if you take that trait. Potentially none if you’re good enough to stay alive under 25% hp.
By itself it didn’t heal conditions, sure. Still, it mitigated the needs for removal.
Engineer’s condition removal was left essentially untouched. The AR Nerf does not alter our active condition removal at all. Indeed, with AR’s mechanic of not even cleansing pre-existing conditions on activation that is mirrored across to Berserker’s stance and Diamond Skin – many engineers back in 2012 dismissed AR as unviable because the prevailing builds back then did not stack a lot of Vitality to fully abuse AR. In addition, the threats faced by Engineer back then were direct damage based; which simply stacking Vitality without Toughness does not mitigate very well. Also keep in mind that this was before Stabilised Armour was buffed and before Protection Injection became standard in many Engineer builds to mitigate Thief.
Cause AR isn’t strong by itself. It became so when everyone started using a condition build, since there was no one to exploit the weakness of the trait then (that is, being susceptible to direct bursts if you try to stay alive at 25% hp).
But again, this is a fault of the meta, not of the trait itself.
Fast forward to now where conditions are rampant and of course some Engineers are going to pick up AR. That doesn’t alter the fact that our condition removal has been somehow removed with this change because AR is not condition removal. Indeed, if you were really exploiting the trait to its fullest potential then you would actually be stacking Healing Over Time to hover around that threshold of immunity – without cleanses of pre-existing conditions you are still under threat without the sustained healing to back it up. One of the reasons why Med Kit instead of Healing Turret is so good with AR; and also why Backpack Regenerator is quite absurd combined with AR also.
Like i said above, while by itself isn’t a removal, it mitigated the needs of them.
And while it was possible to do like you suggest, it was possible to do so only due to the condition meta. People simply decided not to exploit the weak point of the trait, whine for it, and it got nerfed.
Back on topic, I do hope that the nerf reveals flaws in Engineer’s active condi cleanse outside of Elixirs sufficiently that Arenanet will look to reinstate several key cleanses that have been removed over the years; or left in an unviable state due to the presence of AR representing a risk of OP potential arising when combined with cleanses.
In particular:
- Cleansing Fire for Kit Refinement: Flamethrower. Kit Refinement needs to have individual CD back, or to trigger with more player control, such as only when player uses skill from kit.
- Replacing double Super Elixir with a single self-cleanse on last tick of Fumigate. Adjust which tick self cleanse triggers to shave skill up and down.
- Reducing Toss Elixir C’s cooldown now that HGH has been nerfed through nerfs to Elixir S Invuln and Elixir R not stunbreaking.
- Making Transmute proc on Toolbelt use, GCD 12 seconds instead of a 15 second single conversion
- Replacing Scope in Tools with Cleanse on Toolbelt skill use – individual toolbelt skill ICD of 15 seconds to bring up Power build condition cleanse into viability
- Reworking the proposed Gadgeteer Grandmaster into converting Conditions to Boons instead of simply providing Boons as full Gadget builds are supremely vulnerable to Conditions – even Turret builds have up to 8 cleanses a minute, whilst Gadget builds have zero (well, up to 9 per minute if you count Rocket Boots cleansing 3 snares every single activation)
Theoretically you would be right.
In practice, we’re screwed. They needed a year just to give us back a reliable source of stability after they removed the old juggernaut. At least 9 months just to try to fix turret issues. What makes you think they’ll be faster with this issue?
Blindingly nerfing is useless if they can’t provide a decent alternative. And incoherent if you do it only with some classes (hello, carefully-shaved healing signet).
no it isnt logical. i make a statement that engi condi removal isnt being purely nerfed this patch, and you come back and say well everyone gets that and everyone also gets increased access to condis, so therefore it doesnt count.
And i can repeat that if you want: something that anyone gets doesn’t change the situation at all. And in this case engineers actually get less processings, due to the changed rules on them. You can process multiple sigils dealing different conditions and use those sigils that heal them as well, but whereas engineers and elementalists have got 2 slots, the others have got 4. So, if anything, it is even worse than before.
in addition, youre crying that 1 of 2 major components of a build that is widely perceived as cancerous to spvp is being nerfed without compensation, especially compensation to other game modes. after having played and followed league of legends since season 1, im gonna go ahead and say that its ok to balance certain things around highly specific situations. ive seen too many situations where something is op only in certain rating strata. and that its been good for overall game health to balance it around that situation, and perhaps later redesign the abused mechanic entirely.
First of all, why is this even nerfed in other game modes to start with? You said yourself the problem, assuming there’s even one, is only in pvp.
So the nerf in other modes is already unwarranted for.
Regarding the “targeted nerfs for specific situations”, that’s your opinion and while i don’t agree, i won’t talk further about it.
Still, there should be coherency in those: instead, the engineer is the only one treated upon specific nerf over specific nerf – old juggernaut, kit refinement, incendiary powder, poison grenades, net turrets…and all of those even in pve.
Also, “redesign them later” often is equivalent to “never”. And traits like kit refinement are still useless as now. Juggernaut had even to be demoted to Master. Heh.
anet isnt really good at doing overhauls. so the trait will probably languish for a year, but at least spvp wont just be uninteresting because of uncounterable decap cancer.
And engineers’ condition removal along with them. Not that it is a problem, the least played class is always an easy target.
Whereas they have no problem taking their time with warriors, carefully shaving healing signets and, as now, doing nothing about adrenal health and cleansing ire, even if there are a lot more people complaining about those traits than the few ones that whined about AR.
But it is understandable, they’re a lot more customers.
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Then the whole class should better be cancelled, if it is a matter of “bad design”.
Fixed penalities on the assumption you will use a subset of utilities, kits balanced on the assumption you will use them fully traited…those are all backbones of the engineer balance philosophies.
There is no coherence between engineer balancing and the other classes’ balancing.
i think your view of balance is either too narrow or exclusive, and very warped.
No, it is just purely logical. Unlike devs’ view of balance on engineers.
AR doesnt even see significant use outside of spvp…
Yeah, and guess why?
Because it isn’t even a strong trait. It worked in pvp only due to the condi meta, as the explicit weakness of the trait was being extremely weak to direct damage while being at that low threshold.
There were proposal that would have made it useful in other modes as well, while not making it overly strong.
They just preferred to nerf it to oblivion to appease the whining crowd.
but they are giving engis other options… that rifle that a decap engi runs is getting another sigil slot and they added generosity into pvp.
Any two-handed weapon got that second slot, it isn’t exclusive to engineers. Thus the opponents can put sigils to inflict conditions as well, especially due to the different rules on processings..
And the nerf isn’t in pvp alone. And due to the sigil changes, those are actually going to hurt engineers (due to both the limited number of sigils and the stricter rules on stacking ones).
So…no. They are just restricting their options.
Sure, let’s nerf to oblivion now and hope they’ll fix the issues, what could go wrong?
Just like they gave a reliable stability after removing it from the old juggernaut, right? What was that, over a year later?
Bah. Keep dreaming.
Want to see the roamer ramifications? We’re further shoehorned into forced choices, those are the ramifications. A kit, a removal (elixir C) and possibly a stun break. Done. This is the new engineer diversity.
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Perhaps engineers are now forced to pick some active condition cleansing like Cleansing Formula, light fields or Elixir C added to AR just like any other profession do instead of just picking a trait and completely forget about conditions.
How bad is that? I think I’m going to cry.
Except those other professions aren’t being shoehorned into sharing their utilities slots with their weapons due to stupid design decisions, making their selection extremely strict, and thus their diversity. Apart from the awful passive removals, unlike other classes.
Want the engineers to be like the other professions? Fine. Give us the second weapon slot. Stop nerfing weapons basing their balance upon traited versions. Don’t nerf the main weapons because we may use kits.
They’re too busy nerfing the class to oblivion to care about other issues, sorry.
Oh, so now “timing condi burst instead of using skills randomly” is something that only top players can do?
No wonder that pvp is so bad. You’re basically saying that the average player spams skills randomly. That’s the userbase those changes are catered for.
With such a premise those changes are just even more stupid.
And sure, i know it will be useless to write here. It isn’t like they cared when we proposed logical changes that would have still made the trait useful while not destroying it.
But it isn’t like they care about logic. Or coherency, either.
Yeah, just cater to the whiners and do nothing to fix the issues. Another trait that got kitrefinemented to oblivion, congrats.
Could have changed it and still retained some usefulness, but no, just nerf it to the ground. At less than 33% hp those conditions will kill you anyway, it doesn’t matter if they’ve been reduced, as long as they’re there.
Engineers already have no passive removals (Transmute is so bad after the nerf that i can’t even consider it). And they must already share their slots with weapons due to idiotical design decisions (sure, let’s put just a weapon slot because they may optionally have other underpar weapons by spending utilities). Now the only way to stay alive will be to have a kit (can’t do much with the main weapon, since its dps is nerfed by design due to the optional kits), elixir C and a stun breaker/elixir gun. No condition removals means death, no stun breaker means death as well.
That’s all the diversity you can get now.
Great changes and is a testament to Anet’s willingness to balance their game properly. No skill engineers will whine but the good ones will adapt and still rip.
Bravo Anet
The no skill ones are the one who whined for its nerf.
Guess timing condi bursts instead of using skills randomly is too difficult a concept for the majority of pvp players.
But yeah, just screw with the class further, it isn’t like many will bother.
Not saying I disagree with it being changed, but if the mark for something needing a nerf is 40%-45% of a class taking a trait then they need to look at Cleansing Ire or Empathic Bond.
I’d guarantee that at least half of Warrs and Rangers take those as they are the best things to use against condis, much like AR is/was for engis. Your benchmark for OP might be a little flawed is all I’m saying.
Usual incoherency in balancing. Something is used by the majority of warriors? It is because the others are bad, buff the others.
Something is used by the majority of engineers? Nerf it under the excuse of increasing build diversity (by leaving only crap things to use).
What do you expect from a class that has fixed penalities for optional utilities and has its kits balanced upon grandmaster traits? Engineer balancing never made sense to begin with.
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They could hava changed it and still made it useful. Instead they nerfed it to oblivion. As usual.
Even warriors can clean their conditions more easily than us. And they should be the “weak to conditions” class. This balance is a joke.
Or it just could mean there was an actual problem and both players and Devs agree on that.
Or just that there is no problem, aside from a majority of players whining about one of the less played classes in the game.
And the devs are the same devs that are balancing that class giving fixed penalities on the assumption you’ll use optional skills, that are nerfing skills on the assumption that any engineers uses Grenadier and any enemy stays still for 5 seconds on a poison fields and that are balancing an utility like net turret because the version used on an elite skill with 180s cooldown that stuns end up immobilizing because the target is stunned.
Oh, sure i can trust them.
If its screwing “every engineer” that tells you right away the trait is too powerful/over-selected. There are 10 grandmaster traits per profession. If ANY grandmaster trait is being used by more than about 40-45% of the class population, there’s something seriously out of whack…
Like the non-existant passive condition removal of engineers that they already nerfed with the Transmute change? Or the fact that engineers had no other choice other than using AR since they play with a reduced amount of utility to begin with due to nonsensical design decisions like the ones described above?
But no, better nerf them to oblivion. Who cares, they are a minority anyway.
It would still be useless. The point was that you were weak to direct bursts while gaining that condition immune. Now you’re weak to both, at 33% hp it doesn’t matter if you reduce it, as long as you get damage you’re gone. It will end along with KR – forgotten.
It means people will need condition removals anyway, since passive ones are not-existant on engineers, thus there is no need to spend a grandmaster trait on such a worthless trait. Thus one of the few slots engineers have – since they start with a single weapon due to nonsensical design decisions and must spend utility slots for additional weapon, meaning that just for being on par with another class they’ll have two utility slots left (if we aren’t considering that the main weapon has its dps nerfed by design too, again due to the theoretically optional kits). One of those will have to be spent for a condition removal, the other for a stun break (or elixir gun). Assuming they aren’t renouncing to one of that, putting themselves in grave danger.
Basically, they’ll end up killing diversity as well. Nice job.
And anyway, there were ways to change it and still make it useful; could have removed conditions when used toolbelt, or to maintain the automated theme just remove x condition every y time. They had choices.
They just decided to nerf it to oblivion. Kit Refinement redux, basically. Or juggernaut redux if you prefer.
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As anything that can work with engineers, it got nerfed to oblivion. Nothing surprising.
And we should be positive, hah. Between this, AR nerf , the other (nonsensical) nerfs and sigils rework, this patch is a sad joke for engineers.
Basically, they’ve made automated response useless. Congratulations.
Now see why i didn’t want them to touch it with a three-meter pole?
They had many choices – could have made it cure x conditions every y seconds, for example. But no, better make it outright useless.
Because it will be useless. There is an 8% hp difference, and you’ll still get all the initial damage. Enough to die. Because engineers’ self condition removal is terrible – we must share our slots with weapons due to nonsensical design decisions AND our passive removal are basically non-existant, since transmute was nerfed to oblivion as well, so either we get something to remove conditions, or we get something to do everything else.
And with 50% duration you get all the damage anyway. Sure, reduced in time…but you are at 33% hp anyway, it doesn’t even matter, you WILL die anyway.
This balance is a joke.
No, because it made sense to have such high crit damage – it was balanced by the formula used for damage calculation and the low values of power and precision.
He can’t do worse than Kiel, anyway.
Which is fine. But we shouldn’t want to make the Grenade kit more powerful, but rather to bring many other things to its level in PvE.
I suppose that was referred to the nerf that kits received when they got the ability to process sigils. And since 2-handed weapons are getting a free buff in the form of a second sigil (and no nerfs, despite what they did with kits) and the sigil change will hurt exactly that ability to process sigils or will cause a comparative decrease in stats compared to the other classes (since other classes can have a stacking sigil and three processing ones, whereas engineers and elementalists only a stacking one and another single sigil) it would only be logical to revert such nerfs.
That, or nerf the other classes like they did with kits at the time.
Also, the grenade kit itself is pretty poor and should be made more powerful. If they have some issues with the grenadier trait, they should fix that, not the base version.
No other weapon or utility is balanced upon its traited version, after all.
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And this wasn’t even the “Removing Restrictions” blog. Guess i can have some good hopes about it…
AGAIN – we can’t really judge these traits fully until we see all the new changes that come with this update and we don’t even know if 4/5 of these traits actually exist. Arenanet has only revealed Dual-Wielding Agility (Arms) in the official post.
The other ones were revealing during a Ready Up. That is, the official livestream…
I would say that’s quite enough of a confirmation, if anything…
For example, Taking the suggested Explosives Grandmaster to upgrade Power Bombs and increase combo field blasting, this trait will be completely glossed over by the meta Bombs/Nades condi build. Condition Bombs are quite prevalent, and as long as this trait isn’t the best-in-slot for any bomb user, than it won’t be another Grenadier. It’s more a focus on a bombs only, power build using bombs as the main source of damage.
I could agree with this, seeing as its effects are relatively limited and it would overlap with grenadier. The problem, imho, is with the flamethrower…
Also, my suggested Firearms Grandmaster to upgrade Power Flamethrower will never be taken by any who uses Flamethrower for a utility Kit or condition weapon. It’s just one aspect of the Flamethrower that it’s designed to buff – a focus on the #1 and #2 skills as sustained damage. That’s why it won’t be another Grenadier, because not It’s not best-in-slot for every Flamethrower user.
…as the traitline would end up having up three flamethrower traits – an adept, a master and a grandmaster. Having such buffs via traits, all together, would likely work against the balancing of the base one as they would fear making the traited one too strong.
Even grenades didn’t start up weak, they got nerfed over time because of the traited version (even if the logical choice would have been to review the trait, rather than nerf the base one to oblivion). More than being a “best in slot”, we should talk about it being a “forced choice” after all the nerfs.
Also, i don’t think that the abysmal attack of the weapon or the issues with retaliation should be fixed via traits. Especially since it is a problem shared by many multi-hit skills – whose major advantage was food on-crit processing, and was greatly nerfed via the addition of internal cooldowns on foods.
If anything, it is retaliation that should be reworked. But we’re OT with that.
Regarding gadgets…well, that’s just because we are extremely lacking with gadgets. Any trait would be considering best-in-slot for a build that focused on them, seeing as we haven’t got many choices in that regard.
If it wasn’t intended, they would have changed it
They are. It was never intended, this is a bug fix and I welcome it. If you want Bloodlust just slot it in.
It isn’t a bug fix, especially since it was there since the start of the game and they never, ever did anything about it even if it was so widespread. We’re talking about 20 months here. And i can’t think of a single person infracted or banned for such “bug abusings”.
I can agree it may have been not intended at the start, but its use was widely accepted by then. Even the blog post refers to the change as them having “more strict rules”.
Anyway, i can only hope the “removing restrictions” post will be about us and eles getting that second weapon…
Imho, putting others single-kit focused grandmaster traits wouldn’t solve much. Those weapon would suffer from the same issue of the grenade kit – basically, being balanced upon their traited versions, thus making the base ones very underwhelming.
That is exactly what he said, you’re right. However if you were not only interested in tearing people’s posts down and being comative, I don’t believe you would have gone off on your tangent of “oh we might as well not even use weapons right? kitten kitten I’m so clever!”. You may have also noticed he admitted it was an oversimplification and not a reason that using 2 sigils is actually better than 4, instead of jumping on him for making the oversimplification itself.
Because it isn’t just an oversimplification, it is a terribly stupid one. Obviously we will spend less if we can use just those two, but why one should even consider it an advantage?Because of the reduced costs in doing so? And thus the “weapons” example.
Being limited in choices and their applications isn’t and never will be an advantage.
I don’t get what you’re trying to prove bringing up changes from over a year ago. At that point, they determined using sigils on top of Engineer kit skills would be too powerful. 15 months later (during a sigil revamp no less) they decide 2 handers should not have the disadvantage of only 1 sigil compared to dual wielding. How are the two even related, let alone proof that there’s some conspiracy against Engineer kits or whatever you’re saying?
Why does them being old even matter? They were applied and their effects are still there. And we’ve got a rather precise description about why they nerfed them at the time: due to sigil processing.
And were two handed weapons balanced for two sigils when they designed them?
No, like kits supposedly weren’t. Thus they have no reason to give them a free buff.
And this is a different matter from the sigil revamp altogether – albeit, if they suddenly decide that sigils processing isn’t that important to warrant a balancing when they add slots to weapons, they should be coherent and revert the past kit changes.
So either they’re coherent and apply the same line of balancing to kits and two handed weapons, or they aren’t coherent. And this isn’t even an opinion, i’m stating a fact.
The whole sigil rework is a different matter (and we’re getting the shaft there as well, anyway; especially when the reason for kits nerfing was sigil processing…and now they’re giving to other classes a way to process up to 4 of them, when before they were limited by the “same activation type” rule, whereas we’re limited to 2; and that’s excluding the whole stacking+ others debacle, where we’re getting shafted even more).
Engineer kits are clearly in a good spot now (except for the FT, which is still great as a utility) so where does the idea that our kits are nerfed and are hurting us even come from? Who cares what they did over a kitten year ago, it obviously worked out as everyone uses kits because they’re so good right?
No, everyone uses kits because we’re nonsensically balanced toward their use (even if they should be optional) and thus there aren’t many alternatives. Them being good or not doesn’t even matter, we are just making up with what we’ve got.
Having a single weapon slot makes us automatically inferior to other classes if kits aren’t taken. Can’t do much just with pistols and rifle autoattacks after all, even if the rifle one is nice. Since we would end up using those most of the time, cause of cooldowns of the other ones.
I was editing the post to add it. Also, they’re adding a sigil to two-handed weapons without any rebalancing of said weapons involved. And that goes clearly against what they did to kits at the time. They had set a precedent, now they should abide to it.
To clarify, the December 14, 2012 allowed sigils to work with kits. For balance, the Grenade kit’s first skill “Grenade” was reduced in damage by 30%. Aside from a bug fix with Elixir Gun’s Super Elixir, no other kits were touched in that update.
Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/December_2012
Wrong. All of them were toned down.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/999226
This part, specifically:
General balance
Engineer Kit Sigils. The Engineer now benefits from the sigils on their weapons when they swap to a kit. So, this means that you will have the ability to get sigil procs on your Flame Thrower, or Grenade Kit, etc. This means we had to tone down some of the kits accordingly, the biggest of which was the Grenade kit.
Engineer Grenade Kit Changes. We didn’t want to totally take away the power of this kit, but when it is able to proc sigil abilities, it becomes very strong due to its powerful AOE nature. So we’ve toned down this kit a little due to the sigils now working on engineer kits.
Guess i have to post here after all. People keep spreading misinformations otherwise.
That’s not at all what he’s saying, if you took time to understand people’s posts instead of trying to tear them apart you might actually learn something.
“So in a way, it means engineers and eles can do the same thing with sigils at half the cost. That’s an oversimplification, of course, but I don’t think the perceived imbalance the OP implies is there.”
Yep. It says exactly that. Just a matter of costs and we’re overstating the imbalance.
Yet, as described above, kits were supposedly nerfed just for a matter of sigils. So…are they that important or not? Choose one, and the nerf on kits was unwarranted. Choose the other, and we’re getting a nerf with the change they’re doing now.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
And? If your dumb enough to set up this way and invite an AoE attack, then that is what you get. It seems rather stupid to me to suggest this is an inherent turret flaw.
Well, them being made of paper is an inherent turret flaw. But aside that i just pointed out the flaw in the strategy made by the people who posted that, anyway. So i can’t understand why you’re even referring to me with the first paragraph, since we’re basically saying the same thing.
(and unfortunately it will work the same way in PvE as well, anyway)
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
So the solution being implied by the OP is that engineers and eles should be allowed to swap out their stacking weapons still? How is that fair?
I don’t think it is a good idea either.
But complaining about its fairness? Heh, cause the alternative is much fairer, right?
Seems like people here enjoy being treated as a second-rate class…
In some cases, it’s actually an advantage to have only one set of sigils. For instance, if warrior (or any other profession with two weapons sets) wants to benefit from a sigil of energy no matter which weapon set they’re swapping away from, they need to use two sigils of energy. In comparison, an engineer or elementalist can gain the same potential benefit that those two sigils would provide by only using one sigil, since it would be possible to proc it on every attunement or kit swap.
So in a way, it means engineers and eles can do the same thing with sigils at half the cost. That’s an oversimplification, of course, but I don’t think the perceived imbalance the OP implies is there.
…and things like this further confirm those opinions.
You are saying that it is an advantage because, hey, we can’t use more sigils, so we spend less.
Following the same reasoning, it would be an advantage even if we couldn’t equip weapons and had to fight bare-handed. Heh, we wouldn’t have to spend money on weapon, quite a nice advantage, isn’t that good?
How should i even comment such opinions? Seriously? When did having more limited possibilities ever became an advantage?
I wonder why i am even wasting my time here.
I don’t see any nerfs to our kits. I think we’re balanced just fine without a second weapon set, and the two sigils that would accompany it. If you don’t share that viewpoint that’s fine, but what does confuse me is that someone could think that Engineers are balanced poorly but then somehow having access to 2 extra sigils would make it all okay. Sigils don’t make that much of a difference.
Kits were nerfed when they implemented sigils to work with them (even if they “don’t make that much of a difference”, according to you). So it would seem they did make that much of a difference at that time for the devs, assuming it wasn’t just an excuse to nerf kits.
Something they aren’t doing with two handed weapons, by the way, despite them clearly not balanced with two sigils in mind.
And our weapons, according to the balance philosophies, have their dps nerfed due to the possibility of using kits. Thus unless we use kits we aren’t balanced at all, by design.
Anyway, apart from the blatant incoherency in balancing they are once again showing off, having such amount of sigils do matter, also due of the changes on how they work. Just think of the possibilities – one stacking sigil and an on-swap sigil on one set (battle, for example), sigil of fire+sigil of air on another weapon. Or a set with sigil of purity + sigil of generosity for condition defense purposes (again, while having stacks from a sigil on the other weapons and another sigil usable).
This statement ruins your credibility and shows that you don’t have a strong understanding of game design.
That’s just your opinion. If you think it wasn’t intended and yet they waited until now without any apparent reason and while ever saying nothing about that, well, i can just laugh.
It’s not a fact that it hurts Engineers and Elementalists more. That’s an opinion.
That’s your opinion. That is, by the way, completely wrong. Facts say otherwise.
First, to use stacking sigils, we and elementalists can have just one other sigil. Other classes have three.
But even if we just talked about non-stacking sigils, the other classes can benefit from the different recharges to always have them process as soon as they swap weapons (and some classes, like warriors, greatly benefit from this due to fast hands). Thus having up to four different sigils processing.
We and elementalists cannot – as we are always using those same sigils. Thus two at most.
Even if we accounted for the free swaps and processing of on-swap sigils – again, only if we use our optional kits – we can at most process them a second earlier compared to other classes, assuming we time it precisely enough. This is the only advantage we have compared to other classes, and definitely not enough to account for all the disadvantages.
And those are all facts.
What is a fact is that Engineers and Elementalists have access to potentially far more weapon skills at any one time than the other 6 professions. It is also a fact that those extra skills are meant to balance the lack of a second weapon set for Engis and Eles. It would be your personal opinion whether that is a worthwhile tradeoff, not a fact.
What_is_a fact is that kits are optional, yet we get fixed penalities for them, even when we aren’t using them. It is also a fact that they’re balanced differently from a normal weapon, something you could see even just comparing them to any main weapon.
What is also a fact is that when we aren’t using our optional kits, we end up having the least skills of any profession, weapon ones included.
I love the change as well. I think someone farming stacks of bloodlust, and the applied guard stacks from WvW, every time they go out to roam is against the spirit of the whole concept. I am okay engineers being at a deficit when it comes to sigils. We have a different weapon set for each kit. Its amazing.
We aren’t elementalists, whose profession mechanic is those four attunements/weapons. Our kits are optional, and should be so even while balancing.
Also, they are – or should be – already balanced by themselves (just compare any of them with a proper main weapon).
Instead we have fixed penalities due to optional utilities.
Despite the “Anet fails” hyperbole in the title, I am glad for the change. I don’t think it was ever intended (as this change would suggest), and ended up requiring you to carry extra weapons just for min-maxing.
As for hurting Engineers more? It is no different than any other downsides of not having weapon swap. We’ve always had access to less sigils in combat, I don’t see how this changes that. If you want Bloodlust that badly, sacrifice for it.
If it wasn’t intended, they would have changed it, like, when the game came out. Not after 20 months.
Also, we could have said the same for kits and sigils. Yet they nerfed them instead of just fixing something that “wasn’t intended”. Quite the opposite for two handed weapons, that are getting a free buff (guess that somehow they intended to buff them 20 months later, unlike kits).
And where other classes sacrifice a sigil and have other three left – all of them working together as long as they’re different from each other – we have just a single one apart from the stacking one.
So yeah, the change is effectively hurting engineers and elementalists more than the other classes. It would be false to say otherwise.
It doesn’t really matter how runes worked before, swapping the way that people did was never intended. Compensation for a mechanic that is not intended finally being removed, I can’t wrap my brain around that.
If it wasn’t intended, why didn’t they fix or even comment on it before? It worked like that since…well, ever. Now they are changing it…and giving an huge downside to elementalists and engineers.
Also, i could make your same reasoning for kits. They weren’t intended not to work with sigils and neither that made sense. So why were they nerfed at the time?
Pick one or the other, there is still an incoherence in balancing.
Guess you should review your math.
First, before all the sigils of the same type hampered themselves. So having more than one didn’t give you multiple processing. Now it does.
What does that mean? That any class beside engineers and ele can have up to 4 of them.
If we remove the stacking sigil from the count, we are talking about a single sigil for ele and engineers and 3 sigils for any other class.
So it wasn’t double before – they worked in a different way – and even if it was, now it is triple for any other class.
Also, those classes were balanced upon their attunements and kits (even if kits are theoretically optional, another testament to the incoherency of the developers in giving fixed penalities like no weapon swap for an optional utility type).
So they are still getting nerfed by the change unlike any other class.
Again, where is the compensation?
Or it wasn’t intended to stack a bonus on a weapon you don’t have equipped.
Makes sense. But it is still quite an heavy downside for those classes compared to what all the others one can do. So, how are they compensated?
Before this change other classes could still use twice as many sigils as engi/ele. Why are you reacting now?
Because of the changes to the sigils. Any other class can have stacking sigils and three other ones. Ele and Engi can have just a single stacking sigil and another one.
Also, cooldowns aren’t shared by different sigils. Thus changing weapons gives you a freshly recharged sigil in normal circumstances.
Also, when kits got added sigil support, they were heavily nerfed on account of them being “rebalanced” due to said sigils.
Two handed weapons aren’t getting anything of the sort, just a straight bonus.
So either they were lying before and used it as an excuse for nerfing kits, or they aren’t being coherent with their balancing on purpose this time.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
Marcello DiGiacomo accidentally becomes a god and reshapes Malchor’s Leap (now called Marcello’s Leap) into his personal playground. Our characters, helped by Hero-Tron, will be called to stop the sudden menace.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)