I was talking to a few Guildies about Kormir and the events of Nightfall. Many in my Guild said that in fact it was Kormir who started Nightfall. I ofcourse Wiki’d it and quoted a line from Varesh Ossa’s page. They told that it was incorrect. All I want to know is who “Started” Nightfall was it Varesh Ossa or Kormir?
As I’ve stated before Arenanet want’s to increase the cap
Wanted to, at one point. There were a lot of things they wanted once (or said they wanted) and changed later.
Also, when they said that there will be new levels, situation was different. Top tier eq was supposed to be easily acquired – and there was to be no item progression. They didn’t really know how their trait system would work, their scaling system was highly theoretical, and so on.There are lot of reasons why, even if they once considered it a good idea, it may not be a good idea now.
" Wanted to, at one point. " What evidence do you have that show’s that Arenanet no longer want’s increase the level cap(If you are indeed saying that)? Certainty Arenanet could change their mind, (I wouldn’t have a problem with that) but without any indication of them saying they are going back on their word you simply cannot assume that they no longer want to raise the level cap. That’s like me saying “I want to go the store and buy some milk” and my wife saying “I wanted to at one point go to the store” Which indicates that I no longer have a desire to do so. Also Arenanet stated that they wanted level progression in late November.
Of course there is no proof that they’ve changed their minds on raising the level cap. You would need a quote and they haven’t publicly changed their minds on the subject. I think the larger question the post you are replying to addresses is the fact that just because they have made a statement about raising the level cap doesn’t mean they will actually follow through on it. They have shown the ability (11/15) to turn on a dime with no looking back. They are entirely out of my predictive range at this point so I don’t make predictions based on what they have said or what they have left unsaid. Only the actual implementation details will tell me which direction they have chosen to go.
Well I did concede that they can change their mind, but I think Arenanet is going through with this. I mean it must be something of significant important’s to them if they have their President talking about adding this feature. If I may I would like to respond to the (11/15) thing, While Arenanet never announced that there would be higher tiered armor. No were in their manifesto did they claim that there would not be vertical progression. In fact they have stated in the past that the game will have elements of both “Horizontal” and “Vertical” progression with the main emphasis on horizontal. And what their doing with the Laurel system only proves that they are going to stay true to what they said.
As I’ve stated before Arenanet want’s to increase the cap
Wanted to, at one point. There were a lot of things they wanted once (or said they wanted) and changed later.
Also, when they said that there will be new levels, situation was different. Top tier eq was supposed to be easily acquired – and there was to be no item progression. They didn’t really know how their trait system would work, their scaling system was highly theoretical, and so on.There are lot of reasons why, even if they once considered it a good idea, it may not be a good idea now.
" Wanted to, at one point. " What evidence do you have that show’s that Arenanet no longer want’s increase the level cap(If you are indeed saying that)? Certainty Arenanet could change their mind, (I wouldn’t have a problem with that) but without any indication of them saying they are going back on their word you simply cannot assume that they no longer want to raise the level cap. That’s like me saying “I want to go the store and buy some milk” and my wife saying “I wanted to at one point go to the store” Which indicates that I no longer have a desire to do so. Also Arenanet stated that they wanted level progression in late November.
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I did own up to it. You still fail at reading. I don’t know if you’re just mouthing the words and hearing the sounds, but you clearly don’t really know what they mean. All leveling is a gating mechanism; that’s what leveling IS. “You must be THIS high to do the thing.” Otherwise it’s meaningless, which means it shouldn’t exist anyway. Either it’s a gating mechanism, or there’s no purpose to it; either way I’m right.
Don’t bring the manifesto into this, I never said anything about it. And yes, quotes from months ago at the time they introduced a ton of content that they admitted was horribly flawed and are now in the process of fixing, those are outdated. A game is constantly changing, and viewpoints on it are constantly in need of adaptation.
“I did own up to it.” No you didn’t as you gave me a definition of the word “Personal Attack” that would have meant that it wasn’t. But what you gave me was a partial definition of Ad Hominem (Abusive/Circumstantial)“In an non debate setting”. And you continue you to do so, I mean honestly if you feel as if you are right what is the point in “trying” to debate me by using slander? Pertaining to the “Gate Mechanism” my point still stand’s increased level content may not be intended to bar players from a certain activity. It may indeed be used guide players into specific area’s of a zone. But that doesn’t mean that the higher level content is off limit to them. In the expansions the all the zone’s could be 80-85 and it would be completely plausible for players to do 85 content at level 80.
“Don’t bring the manifesto into this” I brought this up because you said that “Outdated may or may not still apply” This would mean all of their statements which are older than 2 months, may or may not be true. “introduced a ton of content that they admitted was horribly flawed” and what would that be? “viewpoints on it are constantly in need of adaptation” So? That doesn’t mean they changed their opinion.
At this point I’ve determined that not only are you illiterate, you also live out of touch with the rest of reality, as in your world they clearly didn’t release blog posts admitting all the flaws in the Lost Shore event, the implementation of the Ascended tier, and the problems with Fractals, or the subsequent updates since then to rectify the problems introduced.
We’re done here, it’s not worth the time I’d have to invest to educate you enough to be able to argue on my level.
Well that’s fine, I hope you don’t go crazy when those “Liars” implement a new level cap. Obviously you can’t keep your emotions and slander too yourself. SMH children these day.
I did own up to it. You still fail at reading. I don’t know if you’re just mouthing the words and hearing the sounds, but you clearly don’t really know what they mean. All leveling is a gating mechanism; that’s what leveling IS. “You must be THIS high to do the thing.” Otherwise it’s meaningless, which means it shouldn’t exist anyway. Either it’s a gating mechanism, or there’s no purpose to it; either way I’m right.
Don’t bring the manifesto into this, I never said anything about it. And yes, quotes from months ago at the time they introduced a ton of content that they admitted was horribly flawed and are now in the process of fixing, those are outdated. A game is constantly changing, and viewpoints on it are constantly in need of adaptation.
“I did own up to it.” No you didn’t as you gave me a definition of the word “Personal Attack” that would have meant that it wasn’t. But what you gave me was a partial definition of Ad Hominem (Abusive/Circumstantial)“In an non debate setting”. And you continue you to do so, I mean honestly if you feel as if you are right what is the point in “trying” to debate me by using slander? Pertaining to the “Gate Mechanism” my point still stand’s increased level content may not be intended to bar players from a certain activity. It may indeed be used guide players into specific area’s of a zone. But that doesn’t mean that the higher level content is off limit to them. In the expansions the all the zone’s could be 80-85 and it would be completely plausible for players to do 85 content at level 80.
“Don’t bring the manifesto into this” I brought this up because you said that “Outdated may or may not still apply” This would mean all of their statements which are older than 2 months, may or may not be true. “introduced a ton of content that they admitted was horribly flawed” and what would that be? “viewpoints on it are constantly in need of adaptation” So? That doesn’t mean they changed their opinion.
(edited by Martin The Brave.8731)
Resorting to personal attacks would mean that I’m not offering anything else. The majority of my posts are logically-based; the personal attacks are just a little bonus thrown in for stupid people. "Obviously they (feel) that the “objective” reasons you emphasized do not outweigh the reasons they feel that progression will make the game stronger"… so you speak for Anet now? Or are you still just holding onto outdated statements that may or may not still apply? Of course they’re not going to express whether or not that still holds, because they haven’t even discussed expansion details yet. We didn’t even know that there had been professions called Juggernaut and Warden until they had long been removed; companies don’t feel the need to inform you of every single discussion they make until they reach a decision. I still see no one offering any sound reasoning of WHY an increased level cap would be beneficial in any way, so unless you can actually debate this with me, you can stop arguing. I have offered sound reasoning, you offer opinion and outdated quotes.
As for if I’ll continue playing if they increase the level cap, that would depend entirely on how it’s handled. At the very least, it would just be another mandatory frustration getting all my characters back to max. People don’t seem to realize that leveling =/= content; leveling is a gating mechanism to force players to move more slowly through content. Ever wonder why the story quests are spaced so far apart in level? Because otherwise they’d have had to make a lot more content. This way, you get speed bumps. That’s a remnant of game design left over from skinner box sub games, and GW2 has plenty of content (and good mechanics in place for keeping that content fresh and replayable, if they’d use them) to satisfy players without cheap tactics like that. And as I’ve previously stated, any leveling design and balancing takes away time and effort that could go into producing more actual content for people to enjoy.
A personal attack – Using an abusive remark to judge or define a persons character. You said that my comprehension of reading is questionable and you called me childish. If you are going to try to slander me atleast have the gut’s to own up to it.“so you speak for Anet now?” No, Arenanet speak’s for themselves it’s quite obvious they know all of the “Objective” reason’s why a level cap shouldn’t be raised, but they persisted to say what they did. This opinion was even voiced by the president himself “are you still just holding onto outdated statements that may or may not still apply?” These statement’s occured in November less than 3 month’s ago, If you believe they are outdated then what does that say about their manifesto,Is that also outdated? And why should I debate you? You are the one who responded to me, I’m not here to amuse your sentiments. And your second part of the post, Is just speculation you don’t know what Arenanet is planing to do with level progression it may not be a “Gate Mechanism”.
I dont see why you posted such a long response for a post that was only two sentences of my own words. Understand it really doesn’t matter how you feel about a certain situation when the initial design was indeed designed to enforce a functionality. You may feel that it’s a “Treadmill” but you wouldn’t know that till you actually played it, the experiences that you occur from level 80-90 may be the best experience you’ve had with the game. Sure you may feel that level progression may not be needed, but Arenanet feel’s very different to how you feel. Arenanet has implicitly said that Guildwars 2 will indeed have an increase in the level cap with vertical progression, and to deny and complain that it shouldnt happen is simply dubious.
You’re reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. This had nothing to do with my feelings, and was absolutely objective. Anet may have designed the game with a certain idea in mind, but as we’ve seen many times in the past, those ideas are subject to change when it becomes apparent that they don’t fit the whole system as well as they had imagined. The game may have been envisioned with an increasing level cap, but for all the reasons I just stated, it doesn’t fit in well now. I’m sure Anet knows this and is more than likely discussing whether or not to go through on the original plan to include a level cap increase with expansions.
However, YOUR insistence that “because they said it once makes it true forever” is rather childish.
So you have resorted to personal attacks? As I’ve stated before Arenanet want’s to increase the cap, and they have the right to do so. Obviously they feel that the “Objective” reason’s that you emphasized do not outweigh the reason’s they feel that progression will make the game stronger. Sure they could change their mind, but they have not expressed this. But what if they dont? Will you continue to play the game if they add a new level cap? I mean for a person who has “Arenanet Lies” in their signature you seem to care a lot about how they deal with their game.
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To those who don’t like leveling, why do you play MMOs? Why did you play Guild Wars 2 in the first place?
Because i liked GW1, and the devs promised me that everything i liked in GW1 will be in GW2?
Yeah, i know, they didn’t really keep that promise, but i can still hope.
I don’t think they ever said anything of the sort. It should have been clear the moment that there were 80 levels announced that the game was going to be very different in terms of character progression.
Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world that’s got more active combat, a fully-branching, personalized storyline, a new event system to get people playing together, and still no monthly fees.
Mike O’Brian, GW2 manifesto.“In GW1 we never advanced the level cap through four campaigns/expansions. The game design didn’t allow for it. But GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” Mike O’Brien (Not Brian)
“We have never said there would be no vertical progression.”
Chris WhitesideArenanet doesn’t want to keep the same design that they did for Gw1, If they wanted to they would have just continued to make expansions. This game was meant to have those progressions.
I’m sure they always intended for them, but I think that we can all agree that Anet is not infallible. With the system the way it currently is, it just doesn’t make much sense to increase level caps through expansions. What would you gain? A cosmetic number increase. What would it cost?
Mandatory replacement of all gear. (assuming they introduce new gear for those levels)
Either horrific imbalance of power due to OP trait combos available with more trait points, or a time-consuming hassle of figuring out how to rebalance traits (assuming levels offer trait points)
More complaints of “treadmill” and “gated content”, especially by players with multiple characters who now have to go through several times the work of one-player characters to stay relevant.
Possible further tweaks to scaling system.
More complaints of “stale content” and “no endgame” by players, as development has spent more time working on leveling content and less time working on content for max-level characters.That’s just what I can come up with off the top of my head. Honestly, the game is designed in such a way that increasing level caps wouldn’t really add anything. It’d be more hassle than it’s worth, and it’d make a large portion of players frustrated. Even assuming that we can knock off those two conditional possibilities I listed by saying there will be no new gear, and no new trait points awarded, that just means that leveling becomes absolutely meaningless as there would be no difference between a level 80 and level 90 character (except possibly for base health, which I think increases independently of attributes directly via leveling). The only crowd that this would appeal to would be the compulsive hamster-wheel players who don’t know what to do with themselves if they’re not constantly leveling, and I’m not sure how much of the playerbase they represent, but I’d bet gold to copper it’s a very small portion.
I dont see why you posted such a long response for a post that was only two sentences of my own words. Understand it really doesn’t matter how you feel about a certain situation when the initial design was indeed designed to enforce a functionality. You may feel that it’s a “Treadmill” but you wouldn’t know that till you actually played it, the experiences that you occur from level 80-90 may be the best experience you’ve had with the game. Sure you may feel that level progression may not be needed, but Arenanet feel’s very different to how you feel. Arenanet has implicitly said that Guildwars 2 will indeed have an increase in the level cap with vertical progression, and to deny and complain that it shouldnt happen is simply dubious.
(edited by Martin The Brave.8731)
To those who don’t like leveling, why do you play MMOs? Why did you play Guild Wars 2 in the first place?
Because i liked GW1, and the devs promised me that everything i liked in GW1 will be in GW2?
Yeah, i know, they didn’t really keep that promise, but i can still hope.
I don’t think they ever said anything of the sort. It should have been clear the moment that there were 80 levels announced that the game was going to be very different in terms of character progression.
Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world that’s got more active combat, a fully-branching, personalized storyline, a new event system to get people playing together, and still no monthly fees.
Mike O’Brian, GW2 manifesto.
“In GW1 we never advanced the level cap through four campaigns/expansions. The game design didn’t allow for it. But GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” Mike O’Brien (Not Brian)
“We have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intend to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.”
Chris Whiteside
Arenanet doesn’t want to keep the same design that they did for Gw1, If they wanted to they would have just continued to make expansions. This game was meant to have those progressions.
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Christ Whiteside (i think it was) said that GW1 was stagnate in it’s limited progression.
How can he possibly say that when the success of that game allowed them to develop this one? How stagnate could it possibly have been when it was Anet’s most successful title?
Well Guildwars 1 did have stagnant progression, the level cap was the same from release. And I think Guildwars 2 is their most successful title.
well it’s a matter of opinion but it did sell over 7 mill copies and help fund development of this game which has sold 3 million so far. The stagnation could not have been that bad.
I would need the actual quote from Chris.W to discuss any further, but if he did say it then it must have had a good reason to say it.
It was in the most recent AMA on reddit, the one where everyone bombarded him with ascended inquiries. lol
Developers will say whatever sounds reasonable to justify decisions they may make but the proof is in the pudding that whether or not it was because it stopped at level 20, GW1 sold and made them rich.
I don’t think it made them “Rich”, Guildwars 1 probably sold more on the notion that the game was Buy 2 Play rather than their not being level progression. But even then, Guildwars 1 hasnt always had a large and active player base. So what if Guildwars 1 was a good game? They shouldn’t design the game around every concept that came from it. And if they felt that they game was “Stagnant” well so be it, they are the Developers if they felt it was stagnant then it was stagnant. There is really no point in complaining, this game has been designed with level progression in mind.
Christ Whiteside (i think it was) said that GW1 was stagnate in it’s limited progression.
How can he possibly say that when the success of that game allowed them to develop this one? How stagnate could it possibly have been when it was Anet’s most successful title?
Well Guildwars 1 did have stagnant progression, the level cap was the same from release. And I think Guildwars 2 is their most successful title.
well it’s a matter of opinion but it did sell over 7 mill copies and help fund development of this game which has sold 3 million so far. The stagnation could not have been that bad.
I would need the actual quote from Chris.W to discuss any further, but if he did say it then it must have had a good reason to say it.
Christ Whiteside (i think it was) said that GW1 was stagnate in it’s limited progression.
How can he possibly say that when the success of that game allowed them to develop this one? How stagnate could it possibly have been when it was Anet’s most successful title?
Well Guildwars 1 did have stagnant progression, the level cap was the same from release. And I think Guildwars 2 is their most successful title.
That’s pretty much the last straw for most players if they increase the level cap.
Why would it be? They never stated that they weren’t going to increase the level cap. They in fact stated it multiple times that would increase it and also add new tiers of gear. This isn’t Guildwars 1 and it was never intended to be, People enjoyed the game from 1-80 right? What’s stopping them from enjoying it 80-90?
Look at how far WoW’s come and look at how unbelievably ridiculous those numbers now are? It’s ridiculous. Noone wants to worry about stats anymore. Statistical increases are simply a way to keep players playing but it’s truthfully not needed.
I’ll give you an example of why noone wants more levels and it doesn’t even have anything to do with power creep.
Take the frost brood mount in WoW. You get that out of Icecrown citadel. Well that was two Xpacs ago. Noone goes there because it’s “old” content. Noone wants to do it anymore because it’s not beneficial whatsover to them.
Sure now you can go in solo but who really wants to solo a raid?
There’s no need for a higher level in GW2.
I want to progress my toon by achieving higher levels of PRESTIGE through armor, weapons, titles and so on.
There are far better and far more enriching paths to progression than going from +10 to +20.
Guildwars 2 =/= World of Warcraft, The way that blizzard develops content for players is not the same as Arenanet. Just because a certain situation happened in one game doesn’t mean it will repeat in this one. This game will never be about “Stats” even if they implement new tiers as they will have a minimal effect in progression. You guy’s are just setting yourselves up for disappointment Arenanet want’s level and gear progression to an extent.
That’s pretty much the last straw for most players if they increase the level cap.
Why would it be? They never stated that they weren’t going to increase the level cap. They in fact stated it multiple times that would increase it and also add new tiers of gear. This isn’t Guildwars 1 and it was never intended to be, People enjoyed the game from 1-80 right? What’s stopping them from enjoying it 80-90?
Yes, because Arenanet expressed some type of sentiment towards raising the level cap. And I support the company 99.9%. They understand what their doing and even if they are doing something right people will always complain.
""I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was" – Mike O’brien
“In GW1 we never advanced the level cap through four campaigns/expansions. The game design didn’t allow for it. But GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.” – Mike O’Brien
(edited by Martin The Brave.8731)
As an MMO, Guild Wars 2 pales in features that bring a guild together to play and overcome obstacles and progress as a team. You know, the core stuff an MMO is supposed to be good at.
There is no other single feature they could add than raids that would assure a massive population injection combined with long-term repeat play.
It’s coming.
Well keep in mind that Arenanet are implementing “Guild Mission’s”, but I doubt they’ll be a practical way for Guild’s to get true cohesion in their play style. Ofcourse this remains to be seen, Hopefully we will see more of a interest in Instance’s as the game progresses.
Astralporing.1957Yes, that wouldn’t be a problem. Of course, if purely economical reason to play Raids would be eliminated, almost noone would play them. So, why should anet waste precious developer resources on content that would be used by a fraction of a percent of the community, if at all?
How do you know what percentage of players would actually play and enjoy this content? And why would Arenanet strip “Raids” of any economical gain? If they did the same for Dungeons or Meta Events I bet you alot of people wouldn’t do them. You don’t have to strip “Raids” of any beneficial rewards like: Skin’s or Mats. Because they did’nt do that in Guildwars 1 and it worked out fine.
As one of the more vocal “anti-vertical progression”, ex-GW1 players, I’m actually surprised at the reaction this is getting. Honestly, I think its coming down to the mistake these players make in calling it a “raid”. If this suggestion had been “Increase group sizes to be comparable to the 8 man GW1 groups” it would have been received with much praise.
Folks are looking at this too much from a WoW perspective, which is greatly the fault of Anet for defaulting to the WoW/EQ standard party size to begin with and not the GW1 standard party size (for that matter, they defaulted to the WoW everything for this game and left a lot of GW1 standards in the dust…). When someone said “raid”, no one remembers the GW1 large group runs. No, everyone’s mind immediately drifts towards WoW raids like MC and Naax. (sorry, havent played WoW in a long time so my raid knowledge of the game is a bit… dated).
We regularly ran 8 people groups in GW1… I don’t see why something similar should be doomed to failure in this game. Especially if it is just 1 path to receiving the same rewards. So long as GW2 keeps with its promise that no one will ever be pidgeonholed again into 1 style of play by allowing exclusive rewards only for those players, I see no reason why the idea of “raids” in this game should be thrown to the wayside.
Agreed, there seems to be a negative stigma when talking about “Raid’s”, And this is why I have mostly referred to it as “Large grouped instanced content”. As a GW1 Vet myself I want to see these instance’s because it’s what brought me to play Guildwars 1 basically since launch. Although I would like to see an increased group size such as the 8 or 12 in GW1. I think 10 is a realistic goal for this game as it is double the party size and can be pretty well balanced.
:Vae Victus.3678Better yet, why can’t it be 5 man?
Because then it would not be Large scaled instanced content(Raid). I thought that was the whole point of this discussion. Why would you even say that you already said that you didn’t like instanced content anyway? Why wouldnt you just say get rid of dungeons?
:Vae Victus.3678I’m going to assume you mean “wouldn’t run into significant…” In which case, I’d hope people that they’ve learned from lost shore and have improved and will continue to improve those limitations.
You assume wrong, as Arenanet has run into significant problems in the past with graphical and internet connection issues in the pass. Including Ending BWE and The Lost Shore update.
:Vae Victus.3678Not necessarily since it’s open to anyone that walks by. In my mind, the biggest thing that makes Raid content exclusive to a certain small fraction of the community isn’t the difficulty, because frankly most Raids that I have played aren’t very difficult either, but rather the logistical problems of getting a large group of people together once, or multiple times, per week for multiple hours is not feasible to a large fraction of the community.
So you are suggesting content that will be challenging but easy enough to the casual market to complete? You go on to state that “Raids” will be hard to form. So what? Most of the content in this game including smaller open world events is hard to group up for.
:Vae Victus.3678The same thing that would stop the “zerg” in any instanced Raid – they would have to make the DE boss dynamic enough that simply zerging wouldn’t work. It’s a problem that exists in the game in general, not just in my DE examples, and it’s a problem that would exist in any Raid content, too.
No, Instanced area’s only allow a certain amount of people into the area. That being said given the level of difficulty for that Instance (on par with dungeons like Arah) it would be almost impossible to Zerg. However DE’s can allow as much players as the zone allows and only scale to a specific amount probably much less than the zone’s limit.
:Vae Victus.3678Then I have to ask why you even want Raids at all?
For the same reason you like playing the game because it’s “Fun”. And that “Fun” only truly “Fun” when its not being intruded on by a large zerg. It also give me and my guild something to do when we want to have well organized instanced fun. Like we did in Guildwars 1.
:Vae Victus.3678Which makes me ask another question: Why do you think that you, as Raiders, should get special treatment for playing Raid content?
We aren’t asking for special treatment or at least I am not. I just want what we had in GW1 fun instanced content larger than 5-man. So at least my friends and guildies can enjoy organized content with each other.
:Vae Victus.3678I though of another reason that I’m firmly against Raids (and instances in general) – they separate the community.
Guildwars 1 an almost completely instanced game had a strong community. And yet even casual players loved the game. If you didnt like Urgoz,FoW and The deep you simply didnt do them, but you weren’t penalized for it.
Vae Victus.3678And you think a 15 or 25 person Raid will be any different?
Yes, Instanced content will always be tailored to the specific amount of people in the instanced Area. Why does it even have to be 15-25 man, Why couldn’t it be 8-12?
Vae Victus.3678Usually, but not always. ANET could easily implement a big event chain that involves multiple bosses with unique mechanics.
I find that hard to believe Arenanet would run into significant problems with graphical and internet connectivity issue’s or have you forgotten The lost shore event? Secondly how exactly would arenanet implement more than one large scaled boss in a non instanced area?
Vae Victus.3678If ANET makes scaling harsher and makes large scale Dynamic Events actually dynamic so that the events can’t be completed without more advanced communication, then people will start using more advanced communication to complete them.
If they do that they Arenanet completely exclude the “casual” and non “elitist” players that everyone is trying to protect. And yet it will still suffer from the “Zerg”. What is stopping 70 players from rushing the DE, Just like all the large scaled events their will be very little communication besides “TY” and “NP”.
Vae Victus.3678If any implemented Raids had absolutely no rewards – no drops off monsters, no big (or small) treasure chests, nothings at all – would you still play them?
What if the rewards per minute played in the Raids are no better than the the average rewards per minute played in open world PVE like ORR? Would you still play them?
1. Yes, as long as I have a few guildies or a group of friends, but not with a PUG. But would you DE’s or even play the game if it didn’t reward you? It’s really a silly question to ask as this game is suppose to be rewarding.
2. Yes, Most of us are not asking for extraordinary rewards. Although many have suggested Skins,Mats,Precursors,Titles,Achievements,Laurels and Rare Dyes as a form of reward.
“Also, for the people that want Raiding – Why not ask for more, and more advanced form of Group DEs and World Dragon-esque fights instead?” Because open world content is “Open” meaning it can be zerged. Secondly they are event’s were you usually kill one large boss and possibly it’s minions. It’s not a series of bosses which each have there own mechanics. Lastly large events are short and have little or no communication given the number of players. Even if someone is talking in map chat who even bothers to listen to them?
Raiding is a more advanced form of dungeons.
We already have open world DE’s, these events btw can’t even be failed, which sucks the fun out of it, having a zerg helping you also sucks the fun out of it. Not everyone is a winner, sorry and with there being no top-tier bottom-tier, players have nothing to push for because they have it all right out the gate. Do any of you remember the first time you seen something endgame? You are in awe of the awesomeness, you wanna do what it takes to get that. In this game the things that make you jelly are also the worst implemented items in the kittening world. Anets has zero creativity when it comes to fun.
No raiding is like a dead end minimum wage job.
I’m not sure if your really responding to me, I think you are responding to quote in the first part of my comment. As far as raiding, I agree with alot of people on this thread it should be implemented. But I don’t think having a gear-treadmill is necessary for it to be successful. Thing’s such as fancy skins,precursors, and rare materials could easily be something to fill the role of a traditional “Gear Treadmill”. I understand some people don’t want that but at the end of the day it’s up to Arenanet to decide what they’ll implement to make raiding fun.
So what some people want a challenge WHY IS IT A PROBLEM FOR YOU?
I already answered that question – it enforces the concept of endgame content being limited to specific areas/activities. As a consequence, the rest of the game suffers.
In my opinion GW2 should move in exactly opposite direction (as befitting the “whole game is the endgame” motto) – making all the open world areas (especially the starting ones) more interesting, and equally interesting regardless of character level.
Even the 1-15 areas should have some content that would be interesting for 80 lev experienced players.
Dungeons and other instanced content should not be a preferred activity
So once that end-goal is completed “Making all open world areas interesting” What should Arena-net do? I’m almost certain that Arenanet has a few Dev’s disposed to working on dungeon and other instanced content. That being said the content they create would most likely not effect the team which is creating open world content. So why couldn’t Arenanet make both interesting open-world content and interesting instanced content (Raids,Dungeons,“Instanced Events”)?
Several reasons.
The resources are limited. Spending more of them for instanced content means less of them will be used for open world pve and WvW. I’m pretty sure introducing interesting big instances with significantly improved mechanics (as compared to what we have already) would require way bigger dev team that is currently dedicated to dungeons alone (assuming there even are any dungeons-only devs and programmers).
With current mechanics, any 10+ instances would default to zerging anyway. If any mechanics would be introduced to prevent/discourage such approach, they could also be used in normal PvE (and hopefully WvW as well, though that depends on specific mechanics used). If the mass zerg approach can be somehow solved (which it should anyway – it IS a problem), then there’s no point why everything else you’d want to have from instanced raid couldn’t be placed within open PvE as an event chain.
Come to think, if Zerg problem could be solved (and as i said it definitely should be), then WvW would be exactly what you would want – playing against other players is always more demanding than anything that game AI can throw at you, and WvW is already a place that benefits significantly from good organization and leadership. Improving it so a zerg is not the only (or just preferred) solution to all problems would make that dependency on organization and planning even better.
Also, one more thing – for the “whole game is an endgame” to be true, instances simply cannot be better/more interesting/more rewarding than the rest of the game. If they are, then they become the endgame, and everything else can no longer aspire to that title. If they aren’t… then what’s the point? The number of players that would want to play them (already very small, especially in this, designed more for casuals, game) would be so low to make them dead content eventually.
Also, you seem to be mistaken on one point (the one that forms the basis of your whole reasoning) – “making the whole content interesting” can never be completed, because adding of new open content should never end.
“The resources are limited. Spending more of them for instanced content means less of them will be used for open world pve and WvW. " That applies to any content generated outside of the scoop of PvE and WvW. Should this somehow dissuade Arenanet from making content outside of these categories? You talked about WvW being somewhat more demanding. I’d have to disagree on the simple point that getting into groups or battles in WvW is not guaranteed what so ever. My server (SBI) has for the past couple of hours has not been able to hold one keep in Eternal Battleground. And their has been little to no attempt to take any of them, WvW is not filler content for large scaled instanced PvE content it will never be.
I’d love to see the Dev’s work on open world content I have no quarrels about that. But open world PvE content will mostly be unorganized and zergy because it’s in their nature to be that way. Instanced content will be tailored specifically like in most games to be the exact opposite of this. And by no means does instance content such as raids have to be the premier endgame. It would fall right in line with open world pve,WvW and Dungeons.
“Also, you seem to be mistaken on one point (the one that forms the basis of your whole reasoning) – “making the whole content interesting” can never be completed, because adding of new open content should never end" I was quoting you, also creating instanced content such as dungeons should never end.
So what some people want a challenge WHY IS IT A PROBLEM FOR YOU?
I already answered that question – it enforces the concept of endgame content being limited to specific areas/activities. As a consequence, the rest of the game suffers.
In my opinion GW2 should move in exactly opposite direction (as befitting the “whole game is the endgame” motto) – making all the open world areas (especially the starting ones) more interesting, and equally interesting regardless of character level.
Even the 1-15 areas should have some content that would be interesting for 80 lev experienced players.
Dungeons and other instanced content should not be a preferred activity
So once that end-goal is completed “Making all open world areas interesting” What should Arena-net do? I’m almost certain that Arenanet has a few Dev’s disposed to working on dungeon and other instanced content. That being said the content they create would most likely not effect the team which is creating open world content. So why couldn’t Arenanet make both interesting open-world content and interesting instanced content (Raids,Dungeons,“Instanced Events”)?
It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway.
I absolutely hate this argument with a passion. Just because you won’t or can’t do certain content doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect you. The fact of the matter is that creating new content takes time, manpower, and money. And all of those things are limited quantity. So every second of development time that ANet spends making Raid content that only a small (but insanely vocal) fraction of the community can or will play, is a second that they could have better spent on content that everyone will play.
This “everyone should be a winner” crap is whats gonna kill this game. Eventually people will get tired of never progressing, never being challenged, and when they say this this forums response is always " OMGOSH slow down man get more skins ".
And this right here is what it comes down to. It’s not about Raids because Raids are fun, it’s about Raids because Raids are exclusive and elitist.
And “this not having Raids will kill the game!” mindset is complete BS. Being different from the norm of MMOs is the one thing that will make GW2 a success, and is a great reason to stay away from Raids and the trinity, etc.
What it comes down to is that if you really want to play a Raid based game, there are literally dozens if not hundreds of them out there already. Go play one of those. If you want to play an MMO that’s not Raid based, GW2 is really the only option.
This is a reply to you responding to me: I’m a bit confused did you read the post of the person I was replying to? He implicitly stated that he thought GW2 PvE was boring and not challenging. In which case I responded as I did that he must have been a PvP(er) and this content would not affect him. Keep in mind that Arenanet has Dev teams that work on different parts of the game. So it wouldnt be hard for them to develop both PvP and PvE content around the same time.
Sigh. Why is it the immediate response from most players that use these joke of forums is " If theres raids I quit " ?
If you love this game, and you play for skins apparently, youd quit over something that your not even interested in?
The game needs endgame, it needs something for its players that dedicate MORE TIME than your casual player that took 3 months to hit 80.
If ANET doesnt come out with some end game, its going to lose its most dedicated players. Why would people continue to play for years when they are never progressing? Your items are always the best, your skills never chance. You never get any kind of alternate or talent points?
If the vast majority of this forums response is " ENJOY THE GAME MAN GET MORE SKINS dont rush through it!" then ya, this game is going to fail.
In the end, I dont understand why the QQ is here. If people wanna raid, let them. If it doesnt interest you, then dont. And kitten trust that ANET will have a plan that allows for progression that isnt exclusive, its what they do.
Wait a sec.
1) dedicated players are not the ones the finish content in 1 week, theese are only player that have more time to spend in game, and this kind of player are never satisfied, no matter what anet can create.
2)maybe you dont get the entire mechanic. They can create raid even if i really dont know why create them when they can create\improve world bosses, but theese encounter cant provive better equipment!
new rare skins? ok!
better droprate of rare material? ok!
better items then the rest of the game content… ABSOLUTELY NO! (15 november patch teach something)
While I do agree “Raid’s” should not have a Gear Treadmill. I highly doubt that Arenanet is going to stop creating tiered items, Ascended is just the first one.
My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:
*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people
How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?
Because iam a god and NPCs dont bring competition, they are predictable and know what they are going to do after the first time seeing them, i used to PvPvE for NON INSTANCED raids/world bosses/etc, thats why i consider it so easy content, in instances nobody is going to bother me, nobody is going to steal it, nobody is going to interfere…all i need is obliterate npcs in a linear way, which could one shot or not, or have 1m hp or not, at the end i will win like NP.
But probably thats me, may be iam just too good.
So if NPC’s are boring then why play PVE at all? It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway. You are apparently “God” and all PvE is boring to you.
I never said it bothered me…i said my my philosophy..
Besides stating that we already have that kind of stuff but with less number and in the open world, we have temples and map bosses, which you even hold hands with who ever is next to you…so no isnt like is something which this game is lacking.
Not PvP (er) but trully PvPvE (er)
And last but least The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of TIme i consider it as the best game ive ever played and apparently wont change my mind, and all was about PvE solo content.
1. I never said it bothered you either.
2. Open world content, does not compare to instanced Raids. Thats like comparing Apples to Oranges, or (small)DE’s to Dungeons.
3. So you are a PvX player?
4. Why are you talking about OOT when it has nothing to do with Guildwars or the MMO genre.
“Iam not familiar with that word” I only pointed it out because it was in your signature, If it offends you ill take it down.
My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:
*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people
How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?
Because iam a god and NPCs dont bring competition, they are predictable and know what they are going to do after the first time seeing them, i used to PvPvE for NON INSTANCED raids/world bosses/etc, thats why i consider it so easy content, in instances nobody is going to bother me, nobody is going to steal it, nobody is going to interfere…all i need is obliterate npcs in a linear way, which could one shot or not, or have 1m hp or not, at the end i will win like NP.
But probably thats me, may be iam just too good.
So if NPC’s are boring then why play PVE at all? It sounds to me that you are a PvP(er) in which case raid’s,dungeons and DE’s shouldn’t matter to you because your not going to do them anyway. You are apparently “God” and all PvE is boring to you.
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My philosophy on INSTANCED raids:
*Easy content and not different from the instances what we have right now except for number of people
How do you know raid content would be easy? If Anet implemented Raids don’t you think they would make it more challenging given the number of people in the instanced area?
If its like the deep/Urgoz i’d take that but what exactly is the difference between those and gw2 or eotn dungeons (other than them being much more fun and larger groups)? If a dungeon is fun (which isn’t included in gw2) large number of players will only decrease everyone’s fps in a so poorly optimized game. Fun/rewarding new dungeons is what anet should focus on and not 40 players co-op/
The difference between UW/The Deep and dungeons in Eotn is: UW and The deep were 12-man and larger(With specific loot-drops) and Eotn dungeons were 8-man and smaller and had vendor items. Where are you getting 40-players from, Most raids are 10-20 and no one has suggested 40 man raids.
In Vanilla WoW most raids were 40 man, Zul’Gurub being an exception and perhaps another one, I can’t recall. That changed in TBC where most were 10-25, but still featured a 40man dungeon. In WOTLK they scrapped that and there were only 10-25.
But in essence: GW2 raids could be a massive DE, there are a lot of options really.
There are only five 40 – man’s in WoW and only three are active, regardless of that what does that have to do with Guildwars (Not being cynical)?
GW1 elite areas sucked, most of us never got to finish them or even get a group going to start with. Casual players shouldn’t be restricted from experiencing all content the game has to offer.
When Faction’s came out place’s like Urgoz Warren,The Deep,Fissue of woe were full of people trying to do the dungeon. Even when Eye of the north drop alot of the “Elite” area’s were full. When did you buy Guildwars 1?
Isn’t a Raid really just an instanced DE? I mean, the problem with Raids in WoW is that it required 40 people in a guild in the right configuration, so maybe 10% of the population actually got to experience a Raid.
If done well, a DE sequence can take place of a Raid. You already see a high level of communication when people try to take Lyssa’s Temple. I would love to see more like that, with meaningful rewards and well tuned difficulty.
No, raid’s unlike DE’s do not scale or provide significant variation in plot. Raid’s usually include more than one boss and provide significantly different loot-tables then the rest of the game. Raid’s tend to be much longer than most in-game content and are set to the background to significant lore. I didn’t really play WoW much but most of their raids were 10 – 20 man and not 40 man.
never been in a raid nor do i know much wtf raid is exactly other than a large group killing a boss? anyway, No. Do not want that. I want a dungeon that doesn’t get old after a week (maybe with randomized enemies every time you enter) and Hard Mode. Five player teams for a 2012 game is laughable so i’d want at least 8 and preferable 10.
How can you say you don’t want something if you’ve never tried it? And if they add an increase in party-size as you suggested, then it would be a raid. So do you want raid’s or not?
I don’t even know what raid is exactly so don’t care. Increase of players in already boring/overdone/unrewarding dungeons gw2 has won’t change anything. Do i want to do 1000000th AC run with 10 people and mobs drop greens instead of blues? **** NO!
Who said that Raid’s will use pre-made dungeons? When they did “Raids” in the original Guildwars they were completely different dungeons with different loot tables.
That’s kind of the point, Shinzan. The folks arguing for raids are, generally, arguing for them to be testicle-smashingly difficult, to the point where ten elite players utilizing top of the line voice communication and with long practice at both working together and running the raid would still have a failure rate over fifty percent. Well over fifty percent, most of the time. The intent is to create content challenging enough to satisfy the Hardcore Elite, which would also be content challenging enough to be effectively unpuggable. And since this content would only be fresh and new and interesting a few times, before it became boring as well as testicle-smashingly difficult, if the content is introduced it will be inevitable that, eventually, people will want it to offer significantly greater/more rewards than other types of content specifically because it’s so much more difficult to successfully complete. Which…means we’re back to Warcraft’s tired old Raid-Or-Die paradigm.
All this, because people have no conception of how any MMO even remotely within Warcraft’s sphere could have any sort of endgame content of any type whatsoever beyond PvP or raiding. Either you’re pivipping or you’re goin’ out on RAIDZ. it is, apparently, effectively impossible to work up and refine the open-world content to end-game standards or introduce elite zones a’la the old-fashioned Guild Wars games, rather than going once again to the heavyweight champion and ripping off their ideas.
So…yeah. Apparently, either you like raids or you don’t have a valid opinion.
The point of raid’s isn’t simply to be hard or a significant part of the endgame. It is suppose to allow Guild’s to have the ability to run content exclusive to them in a large enough group. And so what if people want it to provide greater rewards? That does not mean Arenanet has to implement it. Arenanet set the ground work for how raid’s should be done in GW1 (UW/The Deep) and what they created in that game should live on here.
never been in a raid nor do i know much wtf raid is exactly other than a large group killing a boss? anyway, No. Do not want that. I want a dungeon that doesn’t get old after a week (maybe with randomized enemies every time you enter) and Hard Mode. Five player teams for a 2012 game is laughable so i’d want at least 8 and preferable 10.
How can you say you don’t want something if you’ve never tried it? And if they add an increase in party-size as you suggested, then it would be a raid. So do you want raid’s or not?
There is simply no need for mount’s in Guildwars 2, If they function as a cosmetic with certain speed buff abilities then essentially they have no reason of existing. Other than people want them because they look cool, but their are many things that people want to make their characters look cool but that doesn’t mean it should or will happen. I mean what so wrong with waypoints and walking around?
I have quick question for any Dev/Moderator out their, Are you guy’s making or posting a video pertaining to Flame and Frost?
I have two suggestions:
1. Order of Undeath: (Passive) Summoned minions will have increased vitality and damage. Active: Sacrificed Minions (x3) Animate two Flesh golems which increase in health and damage according to minions sacrificed.
2. Wither: 15 sec(60CD)(AOE) All enemies standing in area are inflicted with bleeding and are damaged over time. Inflicts vulnerability on caster; If Necro stands in AOE he gets 5 sec regen.
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Well there’s the whole Deep sea dragon thing and Isolationist policy of Cantha so that could have something to do with it .
What would the DSD have to do with Cantha? Just want to clarify here, Zhaitan is the only known Elder Dragon that is blocking passage to Cantha VIA his undead navy.
I don’t see why people complain about this, there were raiding mechanics present in the original Guild wars and it was great. Most of the game content in Guild wars 1 required a party larger than 5, I understand people don’t want a gear treadmill and I completely agree with them. But large scaled instanced content has and always will be a key feature to any successful MMO. We aren’t asking for content that can be zerged we are asking for content which requires communication and skill from a large group of people in an instanced area.
If you have been playing Guildwars 2 since the first beta test like I have then you probably remember Creature Codex’s. Creature Codex was a feature that was implemented to give the player’s segments of lore pertaining to the topic of the Codex(In a cinematic). I’d love to see this feature returned to the game, It would be a great way to implement very interesting lore pertaining to boss’s it could also be used to generate some type of reward such as achievements.
If you have never heard of “CC’S” There is a small wiki entry on them.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Creature_Codex
P.S – Creature Codices were removed after the first beta weekend. =(
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What would be the point? If people want to sell them on TP i say let them. At the end of the day their still going to be hard as hell to acquire.
I think content which involves larger parties and coordination is a “No Brainer” for Arenanet. What they did in GW1 with Urgoz Warren and The Deep were great, Most of the “End-game” content such as dungeon’s required an 8-man run anyway. GW2 definitely needs raids.
The problem with just adding more Meta event chains in place of raiding is; It is almost impossible to get any cohesion among the group’s of people actually fighting the boss. Secondly because its an open world fight the mechanics of the larger boss’s will have to be dumbed down because by adding thing such as movement and certain boss effects/mechanics will cause the game to lag (Looking at you Karka event). Lastly, Because their is a scaling limit for event’s in the game boss’s can easily be encumbered by players standing in a single position spamming the 1 skill. Which means the boss dies in like 2 to 5 minutes which isnt fun. And for all the people who think Arenanet would not implement “Raids” or think they will make a “Gear-Treadmill” to accompany it; Think about Urgoz Warren and The Deep, both were 12-man instanced area’s with a large boss and weapon sets.
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I think additional weapons is definitely something Arenanet is going to be working on in the near future. But as of now I don’t think they are even working on additional armaments. But besides that I would love to see my Necromancer with a two-handed melee weapon (Scythe).
I think that’s impossible as they are meant to guide players into higher level zones. So even if it scaled to your level, It would be difficult to complete your personal story if you are level 35 and you have to go to Orr to complete a part of the story.
They already have Pre-paid cards for gems, their called “Gem-Cards”. You can buy them from almost any store that sells games and electronics.
Good post, Although I would not want to make legendary’s harder to obtains; I’d simply like to seem better ways to obtain them. For example everyone is fussing over the lack of end-game, and would like to see some sort of initiative to continue playing without a “Gear Treadmill”. I think a somewhat viable solution to the problem is to add “Raiding” and instead of the traditional “Gear Treadmill” dungeon drops would consist of a large variety highly seeked out items such as: Rare Mats, Rune’s (New), Precursors (Extremely Rare), Armor and Weapons skins sets (Exclusive to that raid instance), Guild Boost’s, Good Food, The return of Creature Codex (Presents lore of the raid instance) . I mean their are a ton of things that can be implemented which would make the game so much better.
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Why not make more dungeons and like raids or sort of?
in Suggestions
Posted by: Martin The Brave.8731
It would not be totally out of Areanet’s nature to implement instanced content which surpassed the standard party amount. I mean if you look back at GW1 essentially we had raids (12-Man) in the form Urgoz Warren and The Deep, Both were incredibly fun and incredibly long. And neither of them implemented a “Gear Treadmill”.
And now with vertical progression becoming a major focus in GW2, there’s no reason not to use raid instances(like Urgoz/Deep) to give the large majority of players what they want: a real challenge and meaningful rewards.
Feeling bad for the scrubs and bads who cannot get into those raids and therefore attain the gear? Easy: Just make the gear a timed exclusive to the raid, and allow non-dedicated players to attain it via non-raid means at the same time you introduce a new and better raid/gear tier. That way scrubs won’t cry about inaccessibility, and the dedicated player will always have the privilege of staying one step ahead than the rest.
The treadmill has to be facilitated in this game; players always need a goal worth working for. Skin and titles don’t satisfy a enough players that can keep the game alive, both financially and in a communal sense. GW1 was not a real MMO and could get away with it, GW2 can’t.
I doubt they would implement anything other than rare skins,or new runes,sigils etc. As the whole tier system seems to be counter intuitive to continual progress as all armor and or weapons on that tier have a flat rate. Which doesn’t allow continual progression, Unless of course they add another tier(assuming they don’t do so every 3 months). Also I think a large majority of their fan-base would very displeased to see a “Gear Treadmill”, But ofcourse Raids do not have to introduce them. At the end of the day I support Raids, and Whatever Arenanet decides to do with them I’ll most likely be ok with it.
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