I think what is being seen in the vision is Mordemoth attacking Glints child. Looking back at the first episode the Master of peace is defending himself and a powerful magical item (Draconic Energy?) from Aerin. After Aerin is defeated the Master of peace states “He wanted me to give him power, great power”. If we were to assume that Aerin much like Scarlet was somehow being manipulated or controlled by Modremoth then that would lead us to believe that this “Item” is important to the dragon. Now where exactly the Master of peace is taking the “Item” is unknown, but it would be good to assume that he took it to a place of safe keeping. My wild guess is that he took it to be protected by one of Glints children, I mean where else would a Zephyrite go?
It doesn’t really scratch the surface but I will continue to think on this matter.
This is a good idea, however I doubt this will ever happen as Arenanet (Colin) stated. That instanced content would likely never see more than a five man party system. He claimed it was a dynamic that works and they liked, I think it stems from the idea that Arenanet thinks content such as “Instanced Raids” would fracture the playerbase. Also there will be a lot of people who will claim you are an “Elitist” because you want such a system. But besides all my useless banter (Sorry) you have my full support for this idea.
While not horrible I felt that the game at time was simply unplayable for me. Given that the content for most patches involved “Zerging” to accomplish task in the most successful fashion. There have been a few patch’s which I enjoyed very much, such as Bazaar of the four winds and the first Halloween patch. Their are others but lets get into my main strife with the Living story which so happens to be the actual STORY!
For the most part, the story felt like we were simply traveling from one local to the next zerging down scarlets forces in her insane circus escapades. Which at the end of the day meant little to nothing considering she would simply laugh off our attempts as if we had failed. It confounds me even more after seeing the conclusion of the LS, It makes me wonder why was any of this necessary? Why awaken him now? Couldn’t we have skipped all these shenanigans and continued were the Personal story left off? Why add twist to a plot when we haven’t even finished the first chapter?
I can only hope that the conclusion will lead to an expansion.
I don’t understand the various counter arguments for larger parties, Sure Arenanet doesn’t want to go that route but too state that it would make encounters to easy is completely ridiculous. We’ve had 2 boss’s implemented in the last year that require atleast 80+ people to actually do them how the “Underworld” can’t Arenanet create a instance challenging enough for 10+ people?
I’m not stating that I disagree with Arenanet in their decision, but to state that they can’t create “Large grouped instanced” content which is balanced is absurd. They did it before they can do it now.
If you didn’t wan’t level cap (Increase) you shouldn’t have bought this game. They’ve stated a couple times before the games release that their will be level progression. People are simply crying over spilled milk, if they increase the level cap by ten so be it this is Arenanet’s game and they know what they want out of it. We all know it won’t be happening anytime soon.
I didn’t receive mail either, however what your looking for is not mail but the amendment to the text in the top right corner. The text should change to show your current objective which should be getting to L.A.
So Anet deleted my last post so i thought i would make another. Is this content boring or what?! its been how long since F&F and were pretty much doing the same content with different mobs! actually this time is worse with the amount of ppl zerging.
Tower of Nightmares. I am seriously terrified to what they r going to do with this. I can feel it in my bones that once, IF, it opens everyone is just going to follow the commander and zerg the life out of the place. I can go on all day but ill leave it at that.
Let Anet know what u guys think and what u guys want! Personally i would love it if the Tower of Nightmares was instanced for 10-20 ppl. Let the zergs zerg, IN THE OPEN WORLD, but give us our instanced fun/difficult content please!
Most people can’t beat Arah. I don’t think it would work in this game. everyone in WoW are slow and stationary. here CC is fast, dodging is important and its why lag ruins the fun. you need your skillz. 10-20 people in a instanced dungeon. I don’t believe that will work very well. I could be wrong.
“Most people can’t beat Arah” Where are you getting this information from? I think generally most people are capable of doing Arah. I do think think that 10-20 Instanced content could work, Arenanet has clearly made content geared to larger groups than that, Tequatl would be a perfect example of this. The reason Arenanet hasn’t and won’t increase the party cap for an instanced “Scenario” is based on rather superfluous reasoning. They believe that it will “Separate the playerbase” and my response to that is “So what?” that’s exactly what content does, it splits people up.
Whether you follow a “Zerg” or do the content by yourself the point remains the same. The content that has been presented basically since the Lost Shore’s patch has players doing Dynamic event’s for almost no reason other than obtaining achievements. Certainly Arenanet can produce fun content I don’t think anyone is doubting that, but what has been recently introduced has been shallow at the very best. Once a person is able to complete these Achievements why should he continue to play this content?
A question players need to ask themselves is “What makes this content that has recently been implemented different from what has been previously been implemented?”
nope leave the mad king where he is make the prince the one able to roam about and dedicate 4 to 6 chapters of ls to him alone on us trying to stop whats he doing. maybe at wintersday he could be grinch and try to ruin that event
and i agree op keep scarlet out of itlet her die already hey maybe have the prince kill her
I really like this spin too my idea, however the only reason I state that TMK should be freed. Is because of the lore behind his freedom, The Lunatic court have been trying to free TMK for over 250 Years. It would seem kind of pointless to write this into lore and then do nothing about it.
What if the introduction of the “Bloody Prince” was a prelude to the final release of Mad King Thorn. With the “Blood” Prince taking the place of his Father in future Halloween event’s this would “Free” the lore writers to finally allow the Inquisition to break the last seal. Thus allowing The King too roam the Tyria freely and wreak havoc. The Mad King would be a perfect Villain for the “Living Story” and with his past history with Palawa Joko the possibilities would be massive.
“New Skills and Traits” – While not fully fleshed out, some classes have received new Traits and Skills. Exp – Tainted Shackles.
“New Fractals” – Probably coming in November
“Ascended Armor” – Armor has already been datamined implementation is probably coming soon.
“New Legendaries” I doubt this will be coming this year or at least anytime soon.
I would love to see “Raiding” implemented in this game, I think it would be a tremendous boost to the morale of the community. However I doubt such a system would ever be implemented given how certain developers feel about such a system. Most people usually “Scorn” the idea of raiding because it is in other games such as WoW. Which is an absurd reason to not want something. I mean Warhammer has GvG and Public Quest does that mean Guildwars 2 shouldn’t have them?
Guildwars 1 had “Large instanced content” which was extremely fun and very much like “Raiding”. I don’t see why this type of content wasn’t included into the thing’s “We loved from Gw1”. Secondly finding a 10-Man group for a rewarding dungeon wouldn’t be a thing for our New LFG tool.
The world can of course change with expansions but it would indeed not do that all the time. A living story OR patches in-between would be better for that. Then again the LS did also not change the world that much so for in that way yet. And in the end personally I feel that the positives with expansions based income out-way the negatives but I am very willing to agree that indeed it has it’s negatives and this changing world is part of it. However in reality the world does not also changes that fast.
You can’t have a living world with expansions, a living world needs to be accessible by all players, not only those who pay for an expansion. Imagine if we ever see the continuation of any of the big meta events but only those who paid for the expansion can see them. That’s a horrible idea no matter what way you see it, preventing players from seeing content that should’ve been there in a non-instanced game.
As long as Anet wants a living world they can’t have expansions, or they can do both, simply going for expansions won’t ever happen and is not doable for the current design philosophy. As to how successful the LS is thus far that’s for an entirely different discussion
I think it would be possible to have both LS and Expansion at the same time; All the living story would have to do is follow the event’s of the Expansions plot-line. For example: The next expansion leads DE to fight Kralk, The LS would have characters fight (New) Lieutenants of Kralk that spawn in the current map. This would introduce new content too both those who bought the expansion and those who didn’t. The LS could also be used too introduced the plotline of the expansion and effectively change the world.
It’s more than feasible in my mind given the small percentage of the Dev. team which actually work on the LS content. Making an expansion wouldn’t be such a hard task; and with the LS implemented “Features and Bugfixes” will already for the most part be implemented. Leaving the Expansion team to work on a compelling story and content.
While I do not think it would be necessary to implement an Expansion given the adaptation of the LS. I do however think it would be better for the longevity of this game; many players have given up entirely on this game due to the “Slow” or “Lackluster” content being produced by these Bi-weekly updates. With the introduction of an expansion a large array of activities and features can keep the player base occupied (And happy) for several months.
The introduction of Raiding in the “Classical” instanced sense is something that will probably not happen ever. (Or at least anytime soon) Why? Well some in the development team believe that it will split the community, which I think is absurd. I think Guildwars 2 will now and forever be stuck in 5-man dungeons and Zerging down world-bosses. It’s not something I could see them supporting anytime soon, besides the ignorant in the community will just tell you to go play WoW.
I think I may be the few that actually like the new sets. They aren’t spectacular in anyway but I do think they have potential for mixing with previous armor sets. I particularly like the Heavy set the only thing I would change on it is the “Pointed” tip of the boots.
The problem with “LS” and content updates in general is the quality of the content which is released. For the most part the content has been in my opinion has been horrible, even with the content updates their seems to be zero incentive to actually get involved in the product being released. A question I think the community needs to ask itself is: What content has Arenanet produced with these “LS” updates which would set Guildwars 2 apart from others Mmo’s?
I very much like this idea, I suggested something similar myself. Not to detract from what the OP said at all but I envision this concept to work in this manner:
Once world completion has been completed on one character, all level 80 character have the option to turn on the feature which opens all Waypoints. Depending on how Arenanet wants to provide such a service they could either increase the price of waypoint cost for characters using this feature. Or make it a gem-store item. Exp would no longer be granted for discovering Waypoints on these characters.
I think Chris Whiteside has pretty much confirmed that a “Answer” or form of “Raiding” will becoming to Guildwars 2 in the near future. (Evidence:http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1g0zqb/tc_fireside_chat_with_former_lead_producer_in_la/) So that is something “Good” that you wanted to see added to Gw2. However why does this game need to be a “WoWKiller” why does the death of another game even matter? I have no quarrels with people playing WoW for enjoyment and I see no bases for wanting it to end.
In this topic I would like to discuss the meaning of “Raids” and how they compare to “Elite Mission” content seen in Guildwar 1. In this discussion I would like commenter to define the way in which the term “Raid” should properly be understood and if the term can accurately define what “Elite Missions” were in Guildwars 1. After which I would be more than pleased to see what the “Average” player thinks about “Raids” in Guildwars 2 given their analysis of “Elite Missions”. I would personally like all commenters to clarify their position on raiding so that no one’s views can be “Strawmanned”.
Going to evaluate some of the points you made in this comment until I am ready to make a full reply.
“Raids are effectively dungeons with a lot of people which they can introduce in different ways.” So? The same could be said in response to "Regular"Dynamic Events (Being required) and Meta Events. Does this however detract from the existence of Meta events?
“Loot the way it is would be hard to balance in such instances without it being exactly the same as the dungeons that already exist and without making the items BiS.” What exactly are you referring too here? Why would it be “Hard” to balance/What needs to be balanced? The way I see it “Loot” does not necessarily need to be any different than what we see in other “Raid/Elite” type structures in this game (Referring to Meta Events/Fractals). I however I think “Guaranteed” (Such as Rare’s) rewards would be optimal for this content.
" I think a lot would have to be done with culling etc before we even consider raiding a possibility." Culling is currently being fixed, so I don’t see any issue with this. Secondly; Raid’s do not need to contain a vast amount of people. A Raid can comprise 10 or 12 people possibly more but it’s not necessary that their be 40 people on screen.
“The people who generally want raids are those who are all for gear progression” Do you have statistics proving this? I want raids; but I don’t want Gear Progression. We had “Raids” in Guildwars 1 and that didn’t have Gear progression so I’m quite positive Some if not Most Guildwars 1 players who want raids think along the same lines.
You seem like you’re making arguments for the sake of making an argument. I am just pointing out the obvious issues with raiding, and I am not against adding raids. Raids in a sense are instances separate from dungeons or at least that’s what people imply they want, and not dungeons we already have but with more players.
Loot in raids would have to be better than those in dungeons if the difficulty is harder. I can quite happily say people will not be happy with harder content that needs a lot of co-ordination and team work/effort if the rewards are the same as farming cof in 5 mins or doing a meta event. The only rewards they could offer would be better stats therefore dividing the committed players and the casual players. Another way is to have more money or better skins and is entirely possible however it would be difficult to balance because firstly whether a skin is good or bad is subjective and differs from person to person, and secondly more money rewards seems to be a touchy subject to ANet.
Culling is being sorted but it is an issue that could be a problem with raids and like I said, causing an argument for the sake of causing an argument. It’s not the case of simple culling, it’s also the case of refining the game to a point where it can handle 20 players using a lot of particle effects against the same boss with little lag on the majority of pc’s available today. I should have said game polishing instead of culling but culling is a big part of that.
I have no statistics but I think it’s fairly obvious that those who want raids come from a WoW type mmo background where gear treadmills are the norm. Also note I said generally, I never meant everyone. Of course there are going to be people who do raids for the sake of them being raids, and for the fun but as we can see from cof farming etc, a lot of people solely do content for the rewards. There seem to be a lot of people on this forum who want to change what GW2 is completely and bring back trinity or a gear treadmill.
I never once said I was against raids and it would add a new level to the game, however there are issues that have to be overcome first and a few of them go against what ANet seems to want this game to be. Of course if they can overcome these and create a hard-mode for every dungeon then that would be great, I’m simply saying I doubt it will be soon, if at all what people consider “raids”. The term raid has an incredibly wide definition and what some people would consider a raid, others won’t.
This topic has been moved; So I don’t see it fit to actually comment to the text you’ve written given the topic of the forum. Take it however you want; I however will respond to your first sentence. “You seem like you’re making arguments for the sake of making an argument.” I disagreed with your points you made; this was cause enough for me to reply this is my reasoning for discussion.
What is implied when someone says “I want raids” is “I want one more WoW clone, with content made to a small minority of players who want to join a 40 people instance with tanks and DPS and healers, in which the goal is to defeat a boss to roll under a 0,001% chance that someone in our group will get the piece of loot we are all looking for; we want to get that loot as fast as possible, but of course this kind of content needs to be gated so it’s only available once per week”.
I and many others who want “Raids” in this game have not made such statements. Your depiction of “Raiders” wanting something akin to WoW seems to boil down to your “Hatred” of that game. Which shouldn’t be given as an excuse not to have such content in game. If you want to adhere to your claim about “Raiders” here I would like too see some quotations at least supporting what you’re saying.
So, maybe instead of asserting something too be true about a collective group of people why not simply ask what their position is like the OP? I as a former Guildwars 1 would like to experience the “Raiding/Elite” content similiar to what was set up in Guildwars 1. Which rewarded players who wanted to do “Hard” content with aesthetically pleasing items and a “Good” chance at rare mats and other things of value. This however is not implying that we want a “Gear Treadmill” because I like many others don’t want this for the game. I want to go into further detail with a list of things I would like to see in these “Raids”.
1. Content tailored for “Maximum” difficulty.
2. Larger Groups (Preferably 10-12)Instanced to stop Zerging
3. Aesthetically pleasing equipment (Sellable exclusive skins. Example: Dhuums Scythe)
4. “Rare” Materials/Tokens,Ascended.
5. Guild rewards.
6. Boss mechanics not hindered by “Open” world.
P.S – To answer the OPs questions, “Raids” in layman terms is “Large Grouped” difficult content. And not necessarily the emotional baggage that many ascribe to it.
3, 4 and 5 are the things I don’t want to see in any type of “raid” content if it ever would be added. Of course I’m against any type of content that segregates the community.
3,4,5 are all currently in game; and are apart of “Raid/Elite” content which is emplaced in Guildwars 2. Think about it; 3,4 and 5 can all be found in Guild Missions. While 3,4 can be found in Meta Events and Fractals (excluding Guild Influence). But as you stated it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it.
The term “Clone” can only be understood at least from my perspective in one way. Meaning that it is has been wholly been copied; Which is a in my mind is a claim to know the truth about the intent of a developer/company.
Serious question: are you a high functioning autistic? I think that I am, and it can make communicating with other people difficult at times.
Because words have more than one meaning, particularly when used as “slang” terms. The term “WoW-Clone” means a game inspired by and borrowing elements from World of Warcraft, not a line-by-line copy of the game. That is absurd, because it is the property of a specific company and any other company that released a direct copy of the game would be subjected to a lawsuit and cease and desist order immediately. Therefore anyone using this term CANNOT be using it in the only way that you can understand the term.
No I am not autistic. Either way I think I may have embellished a bit in my comment when using the word “Wholly”. What I meant to describe was in the form of features or content and not necessarily every aspect of the game.
The term “Clone” can only be understood at least from my perspective in one way. Meaning that it is has been wholly been copied; Which is a in my mind is a claim to know the truth about the intent of a developer/company. I would agree that there are similarities in these games as I have stated. But in all intent and purposes Rift and SWTOR are different games than WoW. These companies produce games for the same “Crowd” and they do accept standards of what a “Good” mmo should be. However I will concede my point and agree with you here as I want to keep this conversation on track.
So I will just ask you a question to you at this point. (I feel like I’ve had this conversation with you before)
1. Would you support the “Raid/Elite” content implemented in Guildwars 1 being re-introduced in Guildwars 2?
I worked in the game industry for many years (on the buying end for a computer store). We all knew what was meant when we said doom clones. You can take it any way you want. Do you use the word mob in game to mean one creature or a group of creatures? Because when I look up mob in the dictionary it’s a group of creatures.
Obviously there’s no such thing as a clone game in the literal sense, because it would be the same game. A clone is more like a reskin. It’s the same essential game reskinned. There were Doom clones that played much like Doom, but they weren’t exact clones. But everyone knew what you meant when you said a doom clone. Marketers from companies would actually tell me that a new game was a doom clone.
Every industry develops it’s own specialized use of the language. You can argue with me all day about dictionary definitions but it’s irrelevant, because we’re talking a specialized gaming language that has developed over the years.
If you don’t want to understand what’s meant by clone, that’s perfectly okay. But most people do know what it means.
“Do you use the word mob in game to mean one creature or a group of creatures?” A Mob is a group . I thought this particular conversation would end when I said that I concede my point. However I guess I was wrong; so I will further explain myself. I am indeed aware of the meaning of “Clone” in the gaming industry. Its is a game which intends to copy most “Major” features of a game to accumulate the same audience(More can be stated). I don’t doubt that WoW clones exist; Look no further to games like Runes of Magic,Alganon or Allods online. However my opinion of Rift and SWTOR is that they are not currently WoW clones. Many game’s build upon the foundation of their predecessors in an attempt to correct or make a feature better, But this doesn’t warrant the game itself to be called a “Clone”.
Not even WoW is excluded from this cycle; from what I hear as I’ve never played Everquest 1 WoW has implemented similar features. But you wouldn’t state that WoW is an Everquest clone would you?
The term “Clone” can only be understood at least from my perspective in one way. Meaning that it is has been wholly been copied; Which is a in my mind is a claim to know the truth about the intent of a developer/company. I would agree that there are similarities in these games as I have stated. But in all intent and purposes Rift and SWTOR are different games than WoW. These companies produce games for the same “Crowd” and they do accept standards of what a “Good” mmo should be. However I will concede my point and agree with you here as I want to keep this conversation on track.
So I will just ask you a question to you at this point. (I feel like I’ve had this conversation with you before)
1. Would you support the “Raid/Elite” content implemented in Guildwars 1 being re-introduced in Guildwars 2?
I very very highly doubt “raids” will be made available in this game due to a number of things -
1. Raids are effectively dungeons with a lot of people which they can introduce in different ways.
2. Loot the way it is would be hard to balance in such instances without it being exactly the same as the dungeons that already exist and without making the items BiS.
3. I think a lot would have to be done with culling etc before we even consider raiding a possibility.
Raids are just glorified dungeons with a lot of people. It would use the same loot system, same boss mechanics (obviously room for variation but virtually the same), same dungeon progression as in several paths, different bosses per path etc. If you really take a step back and think about it, if ANet upped the player entry to standard dungeons to 10 or 20, and name them “hard mode” but used the exact same dungeon templates – they would be considered raids.
Then comes the problem where a hard mode would need a good reward for running it. The people who generally want raids are those who are all for gear progression rather than skin progression, therefore to satisfy that part of the community they would need BiS equipment as rewards which will divide the community. If they did it with just awesome skins though, I’m all for it! I reckon it could work if done right, but in the form of that hard-mode and not separate, designated “raids”.
Going to evaluate some of the points you made in this comment until I am ready to make a full reply.
“Raids are effectively dungeons with a lot of people which they can introduce in different ways.” So? The same could be said in response to "Regular"Dynamic Events (Being required) and Meta Events. Does this however detract from the existence of Meta events?
“Loot the way it is would be hard to balance in such instances without it being exactly the same as the dungeons that already exist and without making the items BiS.” What exactly are you referring too here? Why would it be “Hard” to balance/What needs to be balanced? The way I see it “Loot” does not necessarily need to be any different than what we see in other “Raid/Elite” type structures in this game (Referring to Meta Events/Fractals). I however I think “Guaranteed” (Such as Rare’s) rewards would be optimal for this content.
" I think a lot would have to be done with culling etc before we even consider raiding a possibility." Culling is currently being fixed, so I don’t see any issue with this. Secondly; Raid’s do not need to contain a vast amount of people. A Raid can comprise 10 or 12 people possibly more but it’s not necessary that their be 40 people on screen.
“The people who generally want raids are those who are all for gear progression” Do you have statistics proving this? I want raids; but I don’t want Gear Progression. We had “Raids” in Guildwars 1 and that didn’t have Gear progression so I’m quite positive Some if not Most Guildwars 1 players who want raids think along the same lines.
You realise that lioness do not have manes ? And that the statue is actually a depiction of a MALE lion. It’s rather peculiar that you’ve found this, regardless I don’t think anyone should be “Offended” it’s just anatomy.
My use of the term WoW clone is based on the WOW model of a raid-centric PvE end game, that is centered around an ever increasing gear treadmill that never ends. Where you need gear from X to get to Y. Gear from Y to get to Z. And you have to repeat that content over and over to get that gear to get to the next raid.
More to the point, it’s a skinner box model to keep people playing, and spending the subscription.
WoW clones are obviously people copying how WOW does things to make a part of the money that WoW makes. It’s quite obvious both Rift and SWToR went this route. Rift was more successful than SWToR but had a lower overhead, and didn’t need as much money to run.
In the end, though, Rift got most of it’s new players from WoW who wanted more of the same stuff but with a different, prettier skin.
In the end, I’ve played well over a dozen themepark MMOs and every one of them was pretty much the same on the level of raiding and gearing up for those end game offerings. Guild Wars 2 is different and that’s why I like it.
And you can see it on the forums. No end game. Not enough end game. Nothing to do at end game. Some of us don’t want end game. We like the game…why would we want it to end? lol
While you “Tried”, I don’t think you answered my questions in the depth I would have liked. Although you’re under no obligation I would like to see you address them more thoroughly, my main “Emphasis” was to coerce what “Elements” made a WoW clone. I think this will allow me to understand exactly what you are “Claiming”. Especially when you state that both SWTOR and Rift are clones of WoW, Which I would have to disagree; just because they share similarities doesn’t make them a replicate. Which even needs more explanation as we haven’t defined what WoW “Elements” have been replicated.
“Some of us don’t want end game. We like the game…why would we want it to end?lol” This isn’t a serious response is it? “End Game” is simply relevant content “Exclusive/Appropriate” for those who have reached max level. This content is usually “Difficult” and rewards players in a manner reflecting it’s challenge. While I wouldn’t say Guildwars 2 lacks “End Game” I would say that what is currently in game does not facilitate the role of being: Rewarding or challenging. (Maximally)
To be fair, most people only have experience with raids as done in wow and wow clones. When most people, not all people, ask for a raid, that’s the image they have in their minds. They don’t have another image in their mind because there are very few (if any) other images available. And if the Guild Wars 2 raid is substantively different from the raids they’re talking about, they won’t necessarily be satisified.
There are people who want a different kind of group content, a non-wow type raid, but they are by far the exception to the rule. Because people who think outside the box are the exception (or they wouldn’t be outside the box).
I have very little against group content made challenging and for larger groups. But I also believe the gaming community has been trained by years of not just wow, but wow clones. As such they’ve come to expect WoW style games. A lot of the dissatisfaction people experience with Guild Wars 2 is that it’s not a wow clone.
I didn’t like WoW, and I’m tired of every MMO coming out being a version of WoW more or less, that I’m tickled pink Guild Wars 2 isn’t a WoW clone. It has tons of flaws, as do most MMOs…but at least even with the flaws, it’s different enough from WoW for me to enjoy it.
Raids may start out as something that’s different from WoW raids, but as soon as raids enter the game, people will start wanting the better gear rewards that raids provided and they’ll want other people not to have them. Most hard core WoW players love being the haves, while most people in the game were the have nots. And that’s not really what Guild Wars 2 is about.
I agree that “Many” will think of “Raids” along the lines of World of Warcraft I think this fact is blatant by the repetitive biased comments made towards “Raids” being implemented. However this comment to you won’t be solely on that point. I would like to talk about your usage of the phrase “WoW Clone” and what exactly the implications of this phrase means. I think what many like yourself have been doing is mistaking “Industry Standards” to “Clones”. Certainly you could say “Many” games seem to mirror WoW in the effort to garner some attention because of its success but that doesn’t however mean that the game has been copied “Key to Key or Analog to Analog”. I will list some questions below (If you’re willing to answer) I don’t want to detract from the topic at hand.
1. What key “Elements” are inspired by World of Warcraft.
2. Would these “Elements” always make another game a clone?
3. Would these “Elements” be bad to implement in other Mmos?
4. Given World of Warcraft success do you think the “Industry” has adopted these “Elements” to make successful games?
(Back on topic) I “Happy” in the fact that you are not against “Challenging” group content; I think this game could greatly benefit from such content. In your comment here you stated " as soon as raids enter the game, people will start wanting the better gear rewards that raids provided and they’ll want other people not to have them. " But I think that is rather trivial; So what if people want these features? It would go against what has been stated by Arenanet.
What is implied when someone says “I want raids” is “I want one more WoW clone, with content made to a small minority of players who want to join a 40 people instance with tanks and DPS and healers, in which the goal is to defeat a boss to roll under a 0,001% chance that someone in our group will get the piece of loot we are all looking for; we want to get that loot as fast as possible, but of course this kind of content needs to be gated so it’s only available once per week”.
I and many others who want “Raids” in this game have not made such statements. Your depiction of “Raiders” wanting something akin to WoW seems to boil down to your “Hatred” of that game. Which shouldn’t be given as an excuse not to have such content in game. If you want to adhere to your claim about “Raiders” here I would like too see some quotations at least supporting what you’re saying.
So, maybe instead of asserting something too be true about a collective group of people why not simply ask what their position is like the OP? I as a former Guildwars 1 would like to experience the “Raiding/Elite” content similiar to what was set up in Guildwars 1. Which rewarded players who wanted to do “Hard” content with aesthetically pleasing items and a “Good” chance at rare mats and other things of value. This however is not implying that we want a “Gear Treadmill” because I like many others don’t want this for the game. I want to go into further detail with a list of things I would like to see in these “Raids”.
1. Content tailored for “Maximum” difficulty.
2. Larger Groups (Preferably 10-12)Instanced to stop Zerging
3. Aesthetically pleasing equipment (Sellable exclusive skins. Example: Dhuums Scythe)
4. “Rare” Materials/Tokens,Ascended.
5. Guild rewards.
6. Boss mechanics not hindered by “Open” world.
P.S – To answer the OPs questions, “Raids” in layman terms is “Large Grouped” difficult content. And not necessarily the emotional baggage that many ascribe to it.
I don’t think there teasing Kralkatorrik, What we see in the trailer is a Holographic depiction of The Shatterer(s) and a hat that looks like Zhaitan. I’m not sure that we can infer that Kralkatorrik has the same wing structure as his minion.
I think I would only kick a person if they are incompetent, rude or are a serious liability to my party. That isn’t to say that I would kick newcomers, Although I would first gauge their in-game merit AKA Achievement Points. And then when we enter the content I would see how they actually fair while participating in the group.
Judging by achievement points is stupid. If they started early they could have done dailies to bump their points up. A bad player is a bad player regardless of their AP.
I never kick anybody or exclude anybody unless they suck bad.
I think you need to read my comment carefully, If they have low “Merit” and are acting in such a way as I described in my previous comment then I would kick them. Not solely based on their “Merit”, maybe you should read before you call something “Stupid”.
I think I would only kick a person if they are incompetent, rude or are a serious liability to my party. That isn’t to say that I would kick newcomers, Although I would first gauge their in-game merit AKA Achievement Points. And then when we enter the content I would see how they actually fair while participating in the group.
I don’t think is a good idea as it seems the justification for this is the lack of more aesthetically pleasing pets who also function well. I think in the future maybe when we get a “Big” update or expansion we will see Arenanet role in more pets for Rangers. And maybe they’ll be some of the things you listed.
While I personally don’t have a “Positive” opinion on whether or not mounts should be implemented or not. I don’t see the harm in adding something akin to mounts, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they should be in the game. There does seem to be a rather “Vitriol” response to anything relating to mounts in this game. I think we should look at the “Pro’s and Con’s” for mounts.
Pros: Faster ground travel (Assuming their is a added speed buff)
Cosmetic appeal. (Subjective)
Revenue for NCSOFT/Arenanet (Assuming their Gem Store items)
Cons: “May” Increase Graphic Lag. (Given that many mounts are on screen) (Turn off)
Rather useless in terms of significant travel ( Waypoints facilitate that role)
Players will skip content ( This was stated by many in the community) |IDC|
At the end of the day however I think most people who don’t want mount’s liken it too being related to the popular Mmorpg World of Warcraft. This may be a wrongfully assumed statement but somehow when I read about mounts on Guru or Reddit WoW is always brought up. And those who do want Mounts want it because “Most” Mmorpgs have it which in itself isn’t necessarily a great excuse considering Guildwars 2 current transportation system which is more efficient.
The challenge is relative to what is in game. Temple events are harder/more challenging than other events which give the exact same reward. They are usually opened to spawn elementals to farm lodestones from, not because there is a chest attached to the event. If these farm spots didn’t spawn at all?, don’t know if they would be done even as much as they are now.
If people are asking for harder content, then they would be doing the Temples. If people are asking for more rewards…well then you see where this is going. People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.
Again, point is moot. Can’t be done in this game with current mechanics.
Temple events may be “Harder content” but that is only true in cases were a “Zerg” group is not present. This content can be done rather easily depending on the size of the event participants. And for that most part (atleast) on my server the Temples are zerged. However regardless of this Temple events are not meant to fulfill the “Role” of “Instanced Raid/Elite” content as Temple event’s are simply boss fights with little or no mechanics and almost no adds. Which on a “Good” day can be completed in less than ten minutes.
This content is by no means on scale in terms of difficulty with what we see in other games primarily Guildwars 1. Now too your point about why the mechanic’s won’t work. What exactly are you specifically talking about? Also if these are known problems why can’t Arenanet simply fix them in order to introduce this content? Lastly you mentioned that “People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.” but I see no problem with this, what is wrong with that? (If you are indeed saying something is wrong with it)
Not saying there is anything wrong with it. I firmly believe that rewards should equal effort involved. I have never played Guild Wars vanilla, so can not speak to any of it’s content past the point of understanding some of it’s mechanics and the genre of the game. You can’t zerg Grenth.
The mechanics I am talking about are squishy aggro rules, non defined roles, and damage mitigation. Play out the raid encounters you think about adding in your mind or on paper and then add the game mechanics present in GW2. Post the idea of your raid encounter here and let’s look at it critically.
If GW2 changed all the things that make typical raid encounters impossible to instead make them possible, then it’s no longer GW2, it’s another game. I posit that game has already been made, and another one or ten is coming out. Wildstar looks promising. It seems to include some of the best ideas from this game, as well as some of the best ideas of other mmorpg’s.
GW2 is what it is. It may change in the future depending on player preference. Enjoy it while it lasts.
If you’ve never played Guildwars 1 or “Vanilla” as you call it how can you have a good feel of the mechanics which may take place in this game? Looking back at what Arenanet has made is probably the best way to determine what they will make. But regardless of that I feel that your post lacks “Substance” you claim in your post that the current mechanics are “squishy aggro rules, non defined roles, and damage mitigation” but you haven’t given why, you simply assert it without any justification or comparisons. But let’s just say for sake of your “Argument” that what you are saying has been clarified in detail. My question then be: Why can’t Arenanet simply fix these mechanics issues.
You may be grounded in some truth when you say that their are “Non Specific roles” but why is that necessary for “Elite/Raid” content? In Guildwars 2 there is a sense of roles, like Support or Control which Arenanet should emphasize by focusing content around what player ought to do. Instead of them simply “Speeding” through content which in my mind isn’t necessarily bad. If everyone in your party is DPS so what? Obviously there will be setbacks in some degree.
Lastly I would like you to clarify what you mean when you say “squishy aggro rules and damage mitigation”. I would also like you too watch Guildwars 1 Elite mission content or at least read about it. I think this would be better than me actually making up a idea of what a Guildwars 2 “Raid” would look like.
P.S – Grenth is Zergable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txiUl6_dhjg ( Grenth fight starts at 3:55 fight ends at 4:54 the wraiths disappear thats how you can tell) Grenth killed in a minute. He cut his res time.
The challenge is relative to what is in game. Temple events are harder/more challenging than other events which give the exact same reward. They are usually opened to spawn elementals to farm lodestones from, not because there is a chest attached to the event. If these farm spots didn’t spawn at all?, don’t know if they would be done even as much as they are now.
If people are asking for harder content, then they would be doing the Temples. If people are asking for more rewards…well then you see where this is going. People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.
Again, point is moot. Can’t be done in this game with current mechanics.
Temple events may be “Harder content” but that is only true in cases were a “Zerg” group is not present. This content can be done rather easily depending on the size of the event participants. And for that most part (atleast) on my server the Temples are zerged. However regardless of this Temple events are not meant to fulfill the “Role” of “Instanced Raid/Elite” content as Temple event’s are simply boss fights with little or no mechanics and almost no adds. Which on a “Good” day can be completed in less than ten minutes.
This content is by no means on scale in terms of difficulty with what we see in other games primarily Guildwars 1. Now too your point about why the mechanic’s won’t work. What exactly are you specifically talking about? Also if these are known problems why can’t Arenanet simply fix them in order to introduce this content? Lastly you mentioned that “People don’t want harder content, they just want better rewards tied to doing challenging content.” but I see no problem with this, what is wrong with that? (If you are indeed saying something is wrong with it)
I would like to see a variety of PvP map’s from Guildwars 1 to return: Jade Quarry,AspenWood,GvG. I would also like to see “Elite” content make a return.
Why does everyone paint the “Elitist” as the bad guy? Sure, I’ve been kicked out of many parties because my gear was not up to par with their standards. But never have I felt that they were (ALL) “Jerk’s”. The reason that people ask for “Gear Inspect” is because they simply want to farm the content as fast as possible. And by you not having the proper “Gear” you are essentially a liability to them. Whenever I get kicked (Mainly cause I’m a Vampmancer) I just look for another group it’s not that hard.
And the pessimistic and wimpy overtone’s of a small few in this community will have anyone at any given time called an “Elitist” or that their idea is “Elitist”. Simply because their idea maybe resembles something akin to another mmo that has a lot of “Elitist” in it. Or maybe because they run CoF all day, or that they have full ascended.The word is just being thrown around so lightly.
While I don’t particularly like the idea, I can see GW2 added > 5 man content simply because GW1 had it. I don’t think the game will ever add raiding of the style that WoW or Rift has, but I could definitely see GW1 style 10-12 people groups.
The primary difference between the two being that raids in WoW and Rift are pretty much celebrated in their design, being unique instances that take for freaking ever. GW1, on the other hand, just… did it. It’s like “Ok, this place requires 12 people. Its no more special or longer than any other mission or instance, but you need 12 people to get through it. Bye!”
What are you talking about? All the “Elite” missions in Guildwars 1 were both longer and harder than the “Norm”. On top of that all of the “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 had hardmode. The first time I ran Urgoz on hardmode it took me atleast an hour and we didn’t even finish. The “Elite” content in Guildwars 1 was very similiar to modern mmo “Raids”. You had a large group, some trash and some bosses, that seems to be the formula for most “Raids”.
Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the “Elite” content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those “Raid’s” allowed players to experience “Harder” content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.
Since they advertized this version of GW an open world and community centered gaming experience, as well as a game for all playing styles. Moving more toward content that caters to a minority and exclusionary group would be against the very mandate they touted for years. That is why I am against instanced content.
They already have a ton of instanced content… pvp, dungeons, fotm, stormy mode, personal story, certain living story aspects, etc. This proposal wouldn’t break the mold.
There is much now because people don’t wish to leave thier comfort zone. they act like instances is all this gvame has to offer which is not true.
Could they improve the other aspects of the game? yes
But inreasing instances in itself would break the mold Anet made to cater to a vast spectrum of playing styles.
Break what mold? Arenanet never stated that this game was to cater exclusively to open world. I see no reason Arenanet can’t make Instanced and Non Instanced content. You are acting as if “Instanced” content is bad; that just seems a bit ludicrous. It seems counterintuitive for Arenanet to work solely on open world content as the first game they made was all about “Instanced” content.
See, this I agree with. Maybe not raids, but hard core content should be in the game…and for the most part it’s not. But I think it should be geared towards smaller groups, not bigger ones. Times are a changing. Those who play MMOs are getting older and older and thus tend to have less time to have a raiding schedule.
It was great when the bulk of players were quite young and had less real life responsiblities, but raiding, the way its’ laid out in most games, is almost like a second job. I really think you’d have trouble finding people long term to sign on for stuff like that.
Define “Small”? I would personally suggest a 10 or 12 man styled dungeon, It’s what we had in Guildwars 1 and its the model that worked for that game.
But that game had healers. That’s what makes this different.
Unless Anet finds ways to make it so the entire exercise isnt’ just a bit DPS party, those instances will be completely meaningless. That means you can probably add MORE challenge with less people. It’s much harder to balance the DPS needed in an elite instance, so everyone will just end up being zerker warriors and we can go home. Not a party I’m likely to attend.
This is nothing more than pure speculation on your part correct? If the mechanic’s within the “Raid” worked to somehow counteract a “Big” DPS party then this is not a concern. I’m sure it wouldn’t be a difficult task to accomplish; and to claim otherwise is just nitpicking. I would also like to stress that while Guildwars 1 did have a healer profession the game didn’t seem to follow the tradition “Trinity”; You didn’t need a tank or control.
See, this I agree with. Maybe not raids, but hard core content should be in the game…and for the most part it’s not. But I think it should be geared towards smaller groups, not bigger ones. Times are a changing. Those who play MMOs are getting older and older and thus tend to have less time to have a raiding schedule.
It was great when the bulk of players were quite young and had less real life responsiblities, but raiding, the way its’ laid out in most games, is almost like a second job. I really think you’d have trouble finding people long term to sign on for stuff like that.
Define “Small”? I would personally suggest a 10 or 12 man styled dungeon, It’s what we had in Guildwars 1 and its the model that worked for that game.
The “Huge Event’s” which I think they are implying are the Meta Event’s which are mostly “Zerged” on my server. Certainly, there is some playable content held within this chain. But the key problem is the ability to “Zerg” it, most Group events in orr only require at least 7 people to be efficiently done. Although Meta event’s require a bit more people, but usually instead of actually getting difficult content it get’s dumbed down by the enormous amount of people doing the content with you.
There is no need to use any type of cooperation when the sheer amount of players makes the content difficulty superfluous. At a Meta Event like Melandru I can literally autoattack in one area without moving. If the only incentive was indeed difficulty as you state then that would be completely ruined.
Also it seems as if you are stating that these chains have not been done. I’ll ask you again what are the names of the events? I remember there were chain event’s in the Straits, but those weren’t anything special. But thats back in the day when people use to actually do them.
50+ people? This was easily done at launch and with the revamp in January, 2013. In fact, overflow was a huge issue at points during these times. Sorry, but again, all of the Orr DE’s have been uncovered and there is no super-mega DE event that requires massive groups of people to turn over to trigger. It’s not up to me to prove it to you, nor will I try. We should nonetheless remain on the point of this thread, which is to provide challenging PvE content, which I would not consider simply coordinating VOIP chat for a zerg-fest remotelychallenging.
Well I must say on my server they have no idea what I am talking about. It is nice to finally talk with someone who does know and has been to what I have been referring too.
It saddens me to hear that my hopes for exciting challenging content in this area is not going to happen.
Since my server has not pursued this area and I have yet to find good documentation of people charting the Orr DE webs I wish I could answer your question but I can not.
Does this invalidate my believes? Maybe.
It appears for me to know this I would have to find a new server and guilds that are not instanced center to the point of not even knowing that “DE” means Dynamic Events.
I am sorry that you find that PvE area unchallengeable at this time. Does that validate your desire to turn this game into a FFIX or WoW clone? No it does not.
I am all for raiding, but having come from EverQuest and seeing that open world raiding works and is not damaged by extra people coming along or around.
I am fully against more instanced content. I feel you should be just asking for more challenging open world content and leave it at that. In that I would support you.
Who is asking for a WoW clone? Certainly not I; However I am asking for the “Elite” content we experienced in Guildwars 1 to make a return. Those “Raid’s” allowed players to experience “Harder” content with great rewards such as: Rare Materials, Exclusive dungeon themed items(No stat progression), Achievements,Summoning stones and Large amounts of Gold. Why are you against instanced content? We currently have it in game and it should be expanded upon. Arenanet can’t simply focus on openworld content that would be stupid.
You don’t have to prove anything to me, anyway I find it great that you would like to see the return of something similar to these missions. I think all Guildwars 1 should champion this cause; Because at the end of the day what we did in Guildwars 1 was “Raiding” and it was fun.
“We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”
Those who don’t chase around prestigious gear are “just as powerful”. That is a quote from the now-deleted blog post. And yet those who don’t chase Ascended Gear actually aren’t “just as powerful.” It may only be a minor difference, but a difference it is.
I think this may be a response to me; So I will respond. As I stated before, Arenanet did not state there will be no “Progression”. Which I think the quote makes no claim to do. However I would like to stay on topic and ask you your opinion of Guildwars 1 elite content.
Here’s another quote:
“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”
That doesn’t sound like no gear progression to you? Saying that items that take longer to get are only differentiated by visual appearance and NOT by stats?
Anyway. I liked the GW1 Elite Content, and I agree that GW2 does need some content that is actually difficult. I don’t think it has to be a raid in the typical sense with a large amount of players. It can just be a dungeon that’s obviously harder and for the people looking for an actual challenge. And I don’t mean numbers, I mean mechanics that you have to follow and if even one person messes up their designated part, it’s a wipe. Wiping and learning is what makes an encounter memorable and enjoyable to me. It’s something that you overcome, not stumble past and shrug off.
No that specific quote is talking about the the rarity of an item and Arenanet’s Anti-Grind Philosophy. In other word’s people who spend time to acquire a specific “Rare” item such as a legendary will not have a statistical advantage over the average player who doesn’t want that item. As long as item’s that have better stats are obtainable by “Average” players then it doesn’t contradict this quote. Which is actually going on in the game currently, Ascended Gear is easily obtained by “Average” player through many different avenues. What this quote does show us however is that Arenanet has been telling the truth (At least pertaining to this topic)
You state that: " I don’t think it has to be a raid in the typical sense -dungeon that’s obviously harder" This however would not be “Raids” this would be like Hardmode from Guildwars 1. Why can’t we simply have what we had in Guildwars 1? I mean what genuine Guildwars 1 player would deny the chance of playing something similar to TD or UW?
per Anet you must take and hold the temples and then push deeper into Orr. Per them you will need a large number of people since they state they are “huge events” linked through a web of DEs. You must keep control of key objectives like the temples themselves to make the web reach its end.
Zergable? Since it is open world there is that possibility.
Using guilds and voice chat is the only way to keep so sense of control. To me that is raiding, it is also a challenge to overcome the chaos of Zergs by using guild, commanders and voice chat.
The known incentives are the challenge that is being called out by many including the OP. The unknown incentives new bosses with new rewards which to date have not been unlocked since it required large numbers to get these DE webs to work.
All I have stated is per Anet. I am just restating them. I have given the links and so I am not talk a ton of bull but document statements by Anet staff.
As to which events I am referring since they are a web there is no way to be specific without being in a large group to chart these webs. The main key is large numbers. You will not get the DE webs to work with 10 or even 20 people. you will need more.
The “Huge Event’s” which I think they are implying are the Meta Event’s which are mostly “Zerged” on my server. Certainly, there is some playable content held within this chain. But the key problem is the ability to “Zerg” it, most Group events in orr only require at least 7 people to be efficiently done. Although Meta event’s require a bit more people, but usually instead of actually getting difficult content it get’s dumbed down by the enormous amount of people doing the content with you.
There is no need to use any type of cooperation when the sheer amount of players makes the content difficulty superfluous. At a Meta Event like Melandru I can literally autoattack in one area without moving. If the only incentive was indeed difficulty as you state then that would be completely ruined.
Also it seems as if you are stating that these chains have not been done. I’ll ask you again what are the names of the events? I remember there were chain event’s in the Straits, but those weren’t anything special. But thats back in the day when people use to actually do them.
Are you implying that I have not experienced and/or given open-world content a chance? I participate in all aspects of the game, including these events (still do!). Yes, some are kind of fun with a small group, like grenth or the chain to take Arah, etc. Nonetheless, the rewards, scaling, difficulty level are all extremely lack luster. They do not support tight-knit groups of your guildies coming together to work on something. Open-world content will never be as challenging as structured-instanced balanced content. Scaling will never be able to properly work for a casual and hardcore player attempting the same content at the same time. Again – where is the challenge in PvE? I’ve participated in everything this game has to offer; there is no PvE challenge.
I think he is implying that what you want, the game designers already took into account, and made their version of it.
I don’t think so; He’s quoting an article pre-GW2 launch, which ArenaNet had no plans for Guild Missions at the time.
Yes I am.
So per this article and your statement. Your guild went passed the temples with a core guild group tell the zone what to hold so you can cause a certain web of events to take place?
If so then you have done all the content.
If not. no you haven’t and need to do so before you can make the statement you made. since it is incorrect
Huh?
please refer to edited post then respond with better then
“Huh?” which makes you look bad
(dang cellphones)
edit: especially since most of your logic you use is that of someone who is not fully informed of the content of this game
There are roughly twice as many dynamic events in the Orrian areas as in other explorable zones; many of these are tied together as nets, rather than simple chains.
again quoting the article mentioned earlier
I did miss your edited post and also have difficulties following some of your broken grammar. I’ve been friendly this entire time, I’m sorry you have a different viewpoint than me on the current state of the game, but there’s no need to get upset over it and result to insults.
My original post refers to 2000 hours of play and my heavy involvement in PvX (i.e. all aspects of the game). I have participated in many of the open-world events, which my subsequent posts have referenced and pointed out to. I will continue to reply with “Huh?” as I see fit, mostly when I do not understand something.
But if you believe I do not have enough experience to comment on open-world PvE events then I would say you’re incorrect, but that’s just my opinion. If I need to do 100% of the PvE DE’s to actually comment on it, well then you’re probably speaking to only 1-2% of the population in this game, if that, which I also believe is a bit outlandish. In summation, I have experienced a vast majority of open-world PvE DE’s and would consider myself versed enough. This isn’t rocket science we’re talking here.
Up to the temple for the starter zones til then, per Anet is less then half of the game. if you are stating this is all the game. I have given proof this is incorect with the quotes I have provided.
From those quotes it is very clear that most of the PvE content is in Orr and beyond the temples.
It is also very clear that raiding is already built into the game, but no one actively pursues in in the number of players required to activate most of the webs.
You state there is no challenge. Yet I give you evidence from Anet that the challenges you seek are already here, but you would rather be nostalgic and want to turn this game into FFXI.
I have provided you with a challenge, but would rather comment on my grammar then my evidence.
Simply to me you are evading. seeking only what suits your desires then what tbe game already has in place.
It will take multiple guilds in a mass group effort, raiding, to meet this challenge I have placed in this thread.
Do you accept this challenge?
When you state “Beyond” the temple’s what are you referring to? If you would, provide the specific “Raid Event’s” you are talking about. I would also like to know how these event’s compare to “Raiding”? Is this content “Zergable”, and if so what challenge can be provided from it given that a large group is running it? Lastly, what incentive is given to actually do these events rather than doing easier events? (Perhaps a specific skin or a lore insight?)
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