Guild Wars 2

Xsorus.2507:

McFribble.2349:

I’ve said it before in another thread complaining about the same thing, OP. You entered a PvP game called WORLD vs WORLD, where siege weapons and teamwork is needed to get anything done. If you don’t like the TEAM aspect of a large number of people working together for a common goal (mostly referred to as a “zerg”), then click the crossed swords at the top of your screen, and quit complaining.

World vs World doesn’t imply only Zerg PvP…. its foolish to think it does.

Its simply the Worlds (Servers) vs one another.

All forms of PvP are present in World vs World.

Solo/Smallman/Zerging.

Only one (zerging) has no disadvantage associated with it.

WvW DOES = Zerg fights. The problem is that you seem to think “zergs” are a bad thing. You can demonize the term all you want, but in the end of the day, zergs are nothing more than a large group of people working together towards a common goal. Sorry you hate teamwork in a large scale team-oriented game. There are other PvP options available to you, and I’d suggest you use them.

Mek.2947:

Stealth classes in every MMO are always OP just by the simple fact that it allows those classes to pick and choose their battles and plan out their approach.

Anyone who has this mindset will forever be terrible at MMO PvP. I am literally disgusted that people have so many issues with stealth based characters in literally every game they play. If you haven’t learned to adapt to the play style yet, you are a hopeless cause.

Yes, stealth characters usually are OP in most MMO’s. For the first month or two. Then, like clockwork, people kitten and complain about them to the point where they are perfectly balanced for that game. But because people have a stigma against it already, they continue to complain under false pretenses that “The Rogue only beat me because of his class, plz nerf!!!”. Yes, reveal timer could be longer, and Anet could get rid of Stealth stacking. Too bad you’re STILL going to die against them and blame the class.

Just look at WoW during The Burning Crusade. Rogues could take down squishy targets easily, but against heavy armored opponents (Warriors + Paladins) they had to resort to asinine tactics to even compete. But people continued to complain, and when WotLK came out, Rogues really weren’t up to snuff anymore.

Funny how that same mentality still applies to GW2, where EVERY class is squishy unless geared for more sustain. But apparently people just want to be Glass Cannons, then complain when they shatter from a hammer to the face against a class designed to pick it’s battles.

Throw some Knight’s gear on there, deal with the slightly less damage, and survive Thief bursts with ease. It’ not like Thieves don’t have the LOWEST base HP pool in the game (Guardians have Heavy Armor and constant Regen, so they really don’t apply).

I’ve said it before in another thread complaining about the same thing, OP. You entered a PvP game called WORLD vs WORLD, where siege weapons and teamwork is needed to get anything done. If you don’t like the TEAM aspect of a large number of people working together for a common goal (mostly referred to as a “zerg”), then click the crossed swords at the top of your screen, and quit complaining.

Sorry, but an attack like Hundred Blades only requires utility because people are looking to avoid it at all costs. THAT is how powerful Hundred Blades is, and it can cleave through anyone near the Warrior.

And yes, Thieves get teleports. They would flat out DIE without them. They may have a couple too many to play with, but don’t complain because a class is functioning as intended. The best part of having both a Thief and a Warrior is that I actually know a thing or two about playing BOTH classes.

Thieves are no doubt a better overall PvP class, but just like tier lists in fighting games, it means jack all in the hands of someone who know what they are doing and how to punish a specific class. Thieves drop like a knife through microwaved butter, even when geared/traited for sustain. You just have to know WHEN to hit them.

I personally prefer Stomp. Now if THAT move got a lower cooldown, I would never let it off my bar. So fun trampling Thieves out of Refuge.

If I didn’t know better, I’d say NSP was up to some scheming. As usual.
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab78/BushidoPimpDemon/gw005.jpg~original

No worries though. A small band managed to hold them off while our siege desperately tried raiding Durios. GoM put up a hell of a defense, though.
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab78/BushidoPimpDemon/gw006.jpg~original

Good fight from both sides. But lets fight in someone else’s turf next time, eh?

arKRazor.8654:

To those defending durios from DR just now, I’d like you to address your thank you letters to all the voices on our server instructing our troops to storm the chokepoints without removing the ac first.

Must’ve been up to your ears in bags

I shudder still thinking of all those trebs sitting in Umber…

Deathstroke.5813:

McFribble.2349:

Why doesn’t this surprise me one bit….?

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab78/BushidoPimpDemon/gw003.jpg~original

I mean maybe if you guys put up more of a fight and didnt bore us [TCMM] wouldnt have to get crazy

Hard to put up any fight at all when half of NSP are up in their WP too scared to fight face to face against three DR’s :P

Why doesn’t this surprise me one bit….?

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab78/BushidoPimpDemon/gw003.jpg~original

peter.9024:

McFribble.2349:

Bull Rush + Frenzy + Hundred Blades = Dead target. Three skill uses just like 3 + 3 + 3 spam for S/D Thieves.

Oh but wait, dodging and evading is NOW a viable answer, amiright?

I hope you do realize that you compared a spam able weapon skill to a 40s CD combo that uses 2 utility slots..

I hope you realize initiative isn’t an infinite pool that can be tapped into at any time for any amount. The fact of the matter is that a Warrior can setup 15k cone AoE damage in less than 4 seconds. A thief can get two of his 3 Larcenous Strikes off in that time and only hit for MAYBE 8k at most against a single target.

Yeah, they are comparable and the Warrior wins out in this scenario.

Bull Rush + Frenzy + Hundred Blades = Dead target. Three skill uses just like 3 + 3 + 3 spam for S/D Thieves.

Oh but wait, dodging and evading is NOW a viable answer, amiright?

Fritz.5026:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Fritz.5026:

just for an example watch this guys video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCWywAXmVP4

this was just the first video i clicked on, i did not even have to try

please explain to me how another class, such as a ranger or necromancer, could pull off the same things.

edit – the guys commentary is so funny though. “Well I noticed things were not going my way so I stealthed” … for the 100th time in less than 10 minutes.

That exact video is not one of the best to show how OP the thief class is. Those players are totally clueless, letting a single thief take them all down one by one.

That crap can only happen in wvw…

like i said it was the first video i clicked on.

regardless of the other players you cannot sit there and tell me another class can pull off the same things.

he uses stealth to be able to take on large groups and consistently get out of trouble.

the other players could be complete noobs and they would still steamroll any other class.

Next question.

My PvE setup:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAV8alUmiP3cy9E+5Ex2jdqTey9ooM9odF4KA-jAyAYLBZiCERIwJvioxW4KiGruGT5SEVbwLiWNA-e

You are a massive support to your team while dealing decent damage. Blinding Powder is used as a single-target heal for an ally in a downed state due to Shadow Protector, and Shadow’s Refuge is used as a HUGE AoE heal for the melee, or as a means to pickup downed players.

Shortbow is traited to deal decent AoE damage, while Pistol Whip is great for single-target burst. The closer to death the boss is, the more damage you will dish out.

Honestly, I have almost solod bosses with this build. Self-vigor through healing = more dodges, Infiltrator’s Arrow allows for two additional “dodges”, switching Blinding Powder for Shadowstep will make you completely uncatchable (Shadowstep is better than Blinding Powder with a group who like to drop a lot), Signet of Shadows provides kiting ability and a free blind, while DaggerStorm/Thieves Guild provide great AoE or Single-Target burst.

Why do people complain about Thieves in PvE again?

ExZee.8109:

Arganthium.5638:

I’m arguing that no matter what ANet does, it will likely result in a bug like this if this is their intention, and is unlikely to be fixed any time soon. Just look at Shadow Trap.

Furthermore, that was only one in six arguments that I used. So thank you for your nonsensical reply.

You expect anyone to read that wall of text? lol.

OP feels everyone should address every single point in his wall of text, otherwise any criticism of his thread is null and void. It has been plain to see OP is just crying over spilt milk on a class that is just as viable before and after the patch in question. If 1,200 units of range that can be used repeatedly isn’t enough for a hard escape ability, I literally shutter to think how well these thieves claiming this is a “nerf” perform in PvP.

redslion.9675:

Here is what I’m testing in spvp.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAsZTjcOxwZPCPMxCAsAThiuMoaKli2sLVIMA-TsAA1CnIKSVkrITRyisFNsYZxkAA

My goal is to obtain a great stat optimization: I have high attack, high crit chance (80% with sword/mace), high crit damage (40% with banner), high vitality and high toughness.

Only problem is sword is a bit disappointing as a damage weapon.

Depending on how much I’m awake, I thing this could make a strong front line roamer. And seems really strong against other warrors (I just outlast them), but I am still not able to take down bunkers or strong 1v1 classes alone.

I would never use it in tPvP, but in WvW it gives huge mobility and awesome slows against opponents trying to run away while you beat them to death with Greatsword auto-attack.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

That Larceny strike hits for like 1.5k to crits 3k. Idk if you were fighting a non damage sword thief, but no thief weapon hits softly

4.5k single target is laughable at best for one skill that “hits hard”. Hundred Blades easily hits for 15k against anything and everything in a 180 degree cone in front of you, while most Thieves are running MAYBE 14k HP without full zerker gear. I fail to see the problem here.

Arganthium.5638:

McFribble.2349:

Arganthium.5638:

Lightsbane.9012:

Excalibur.9748:

Meh, thieves get nerfed every patch. This one was no exception…

how can you call this a nerf? it says 1200 in the tool tip. did before this patch.

“Return to your original location.”

That’s what it also says. Before and after this patch, too.

Furthermore, a “nerf” is not defined by intention but by effect. While ANet’s intention may not have been to give this skill infinite range originally, that does not mean that the infinite range was necessarily a bad bug that had to be removed. However, as it clearly decreases versatility granted to thieves, I cannot call this anything but a nerf, as it does have negative effects on thief performance.

And an opposite party could easily say having infinite range for Shadow’s Return offered too much versatility for the Thief. I fail to see how Thieves need as many escapes as they do anyhow, so making a skill work as intended at the cost of a little escape ability isn’t anything worth tearing the forums up over.

But alas, here on the Thief forums…

Further evidence you never read my post with all of my arguments against SR’s nerf?

Arganthium.5638:

5. Counterargument: “But the ability to control two points on the map was just too strong!”

First of all, IStrike doesn’t guarantee control of two points over a very long distance anyways, unless you’re going to burn up a bunch of mobility skills, in which case you maybe have 7-8 seconds to write in your chat “LOL I CAN TELEPORT ACROSS TEH MAP GUYZ” and then have to click the button, which is horribly inefficient anyhow. Furthermore, what’s the point in controlling two points if you only have a very limited time frame to control them, and have to abuse your mobility greatly in order for the teleport to mean anything anyways? Furthermore, while the idea looks great in theory, how many PvPers, for example, have you seen actually abuse this mechanic? Why is this mechanic even good? It means that a main mobility skill just has to sit on your bar unused for 15 seconds. If you try to go cap the clock tower in Kyhlo, for example, from the windmill, what might happen is that by the time you get to the top of the clock tower (and this is given that you abuse your mobility skills) you might have five seconds before you can SR back to the windmill. If somebody is about to neutralize windmill anyways, then why the kitten did you run to the clocktower to go get a few ticks on it in the first place? Now the enemy can attack a largely undefended windmill while you can choose either to let them cap it, and thereby wasting the whole idea behind laying down SR at the windmill anyways, or you can Shadow Return, wasting an initiative and a bunch of mobility skills just so that you can show off the fact that you can teleport from one point to the other in a map quickly, which is absolutely useless. You would’ve just been better off staying at windmill in the first place and then using IStrike to immobilize enemies coming to cap the point in the first place. So, this mobility “abuse” is only any use in fights anyways, as it gives you the opportunity to escape and cleanse conditions, but even then, you can’t let SR sit on your bar for too long without wasting a good weapon skill for you to use, and if you use it at the wrong moment then you might be left with unfavorable conditions. For example, condition cleansing with the skill against a staff necro might just result in you getting mark bursted as you try to get within attacking range of the necro again.

Also, you’re really working your way up to an infraction. Flaming members of the thief community is a surefire way to damage your reputation.

An infraction for pointing out my opinion in a discussion? Sorry, the thief forums are infamous for QQ. Pointing this out isn’t against the rules by any means, especially if I’m not naming and shaming. But if you would like to prove where exactly I “flamed a member of the thief forums”, I would love to see it. I sure wouldn’t want to hurt my reputation on an online forum for a video game.

Arganthium.5638:

McFribble.2349:

Arganthium.5638:

McFribble.2349:

My argument against the Thief “whine”:

You are a class that has almost the most mobility, almost the highest burst, literally the best PvP mechanic in the game, and cry when the devs fix something that clearly wasn’t working as intended.

You are a great PvP class when used within a team (unheard of, I know), have amazing utility for PvE content, and can do almost everything but soak up damage.

If you ever sit and wonder why everyone else associated with the game find your player base a laughing stock, look no further than the QQ from the recent patch.

And yet your ad hominem remarks not once address the content of my post. Perhaps if you read you would understand that the QQ’ing, in this case, is well deserved. But you seem not to have, as it would seem odd for you to read the entire post only to not mention its content once in your reply.

Thus, as your comment is nothing more than the expression of your clearly biased and irrelevant opinions, I see no reason for me to continue discussing with you until you decide to speak on relevant topics.

Congratulations, you just described this thread, the majority of the posters here, and basically 99% of all forums all over the net. With all the time Thieves use to whine in the forums, they could have rerolled a second 80 with full Ascended.

Tell me, then- what is biased about the fact that Shadow Return clearly states that it returns you to your original location? What is opinionated? Is that an opinion, even? But perhaps you never read that.

What I really have to ask you- what gives you the nerve to come onto these forums, make clearly untrue claims (given that there are a very large number of great people on these forums whom I doubt you have ever even corresponded in the least bit with), and then insult us like this? If anything, you should be ashamed with yourself because of your childish behavior.

The nerve that Thieves cry over every insignificant change that happens in the game that somehow relate to them. Sorry you and your buddies on this side of the forums think so highly of yourselves that you can’t see past an obvious fix, but when all you know how to do is complain about how every single patch is a nerf, no one is going to take you seriously.

How has those stealth traps been ruining your game, anyway? I’m sure you’ve just been harassed 24/7 through countless anti-stealth mechanics the forums were raving about, amiright?

Arganthium.5638:

Lightsbane.9012:

Excalibur.9748:

Meh, thieves get nerfed every patch. This one was no exception…

how can you call this a nerf? it says 1200 in the tool tip. did before this patch.

“Return to your original location.”

That’s what it also says. Before and after this patch, too.

Furthermore, a “nerf” is not defined by intention but by effect. While ANet’s intention may not have been to give this skill infinite range originally, that does not mean that the infinite range was necessarily a bad bug that had to be removed. However, as it clearly decreases versatility granted to thieves, I cannot call this anything but a nerf, as it does have negative effects on thief performance.

And an opposite party could easily say having infinite range for Shadow’s Return offered too much versatility for the Thief. I fail to see how Thieves need as many escapes as they do anyhow, so making a skill work as intended at the cost of a little escape ability isn’t anything worth tearing the forums up over.

But alas, here on the Thief forums…

Lyndis.2584:

McFribble.2349:

Pendragon.8735:

Hit and run need not be dependent on stealth. DD Ele’s, especially prior the last few patches, were amazing at hit and run, and had no stealth.

It’s simply lack of creativity to claim that this is the only way to skin the cat for a thief type character.

But yes, moving the reveal timer back down to 3s for WvW was a mistake.

There is literally NOTHING wrong with the Thief’s design other than a few number tweaks. Most MMOs have stealth-based classes in infinite stealth until hit or attacking, with methods to re-stealth in combat. If anything, I’d say stealth is GW2 is very restrictive in more ways than not, especially when a single skill only allows a max of 10 seconds of it (not taking D/P thieves into account).

Complaining about Thieves is like complaining about Mesmer clones, is like complaining about Guardian boons. There was a point in time where people learned to adapt to the game, and not cry about the game conforming to them. Those days are obviously long past.

Thieves are a solid class that have a purpose (as much as Thief players would like to say otherwise). While they can be annoying, it is what they are designed to do (and as much as non-thief players want to admit, that is okay). SOME tweaks do have to be made, but the outcry from both Thieves and Thief haters has gone to insane proportions that make both ends of the spectrum look like idiots (is it against the forum rules to call a non-specific person an idiot? Sorry if it is mods, I’ll edit if need be).

Yeah, that was a terrible comparison. You can rip boons and kill clones. No class in this game has stealth detection on hand.

Stealth isn’t a buff. It isn’t a second body attacking for you and causing Conditions (other than maybe 1 second of blindness if you are dry humping the thief). It is a state of transparency that offers some offensive abilities and a little health regan (if traited).

A stealthed thief is either doing one of two things: Closing distance to attack, or running away. AoE your position. Just because you don’t see him dying doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

Really, roll an upleveled Thief in tPvP for a week and get used to his mechanics. They are strong, but very predictable once you have handled the class yourself.

Arganthium.5638:

McFribble.2349:

My argument against the Thief “whine”:

You are a class that has almost the most mobility, almost the highest burst, literally the best PvP mechanic in the game, and cry when the devs fix something that clearly wasn’t working as intended.

You are a great PvP class when used within a team (unheard of, I know), have amazing utility for PvE content, and can do almost everything but soak up damage.

If you ever sit and wonder why everyone else associated with the game find your player base a laughing stock, look no further than the QQ from the recent patch.

And yet your ad hominem remarks not once address the content of my post. Perhaps if you read you would understand that the QQ’ing, in this case, is well deserved. But you seem not to have, as it would seem odd for you to read the entire post only to not mention its content once in your reply.

Thus, as your comment is nothing more than the expression of your clearly biased and irrelevant opinions, I see no reason for me to continue discussing with you until you decide to speak on relevant topics.

Congratulations, you just described this thread, the majority of the posters here, and basically 99% of all forums all over the net. With all the time Thieves use to whine in the forums, they could have rerolled a second 80 with full Ascended.

Arganthium.5638:

McFribble.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

McFribble.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

McFribble.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Obviously, those who are saying that this is a “bug fix” have not played GW1 at all and have no idea what they are talking about.

THIS IS NOT A BUG FIX!

That’s all I have to say about that.

Obviously anyone who sees this as anything more than a bug fix don’t know how to read. The skill CLEARLY stated it only had a 1,200 range (lol, “only”).

If you cannot justify why this is a bug, then it is not a bug.

If you think it is a broken skill because it’s too powerful, then say it as it is and not call it a bug.

It is insulting when their intention is to nerf it but hiding behind the pretense of a bug by calling it a bug. Don’t hide under the pretense that it is a bug, it only makes you dishonest.

Just call it as it is.

It is a NERF!

A bug fix is when Anet finds the time to fix our auto-attack timing — now that’s a bug fix worth praising.

Anet aren’t hiding under the pretense that it is a bug. WE are claiming it was a bug, and it has now been fixed. Anet did nothing to say their end but fix the bug at hand.

If this ultimately nerfs thieves, then it is a nerf that shouldn’t have happened in the first place (NOT in the favor for Thieves). Sorry if you have grown too comfortable with EZescape number 7 not working as intended for almost a year, but this is a fix thieves should have been getting ready for ever since it was made clear as day that the range to Shadow’s Return didn’t synch with it in practice.

So that’s all it takes now? To claim that it is a bug and it is so?

Like I said, you cannot justify it.

And you know what? NOW it is bugged and need fixing. When do you think they will fix that?

But hey, if it makes you superior over any thief whenever Anet nerfs us, then enjoy yourself….why are you even here?

I’ll start off by saying I am here because my main is in fact a Thief. Just because you “claim I don’t play a thief doesn’t make it so”.

Second, I don’t need to claim that Shadow’s Return was bugged prior to the patch, it was proven by the skill itself.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return_

1,200 range

Twelve
Hundred
Range

If it did any more than that (which it OBVIOUSLY did), it was bugged and not working as intended. This isn’t even up for debate, it is fact. The skill prior to patch did NOT work as intended. It now works within the listed range, albeit with a new bug in its place (no one is arguing this needs to be addressed). However, the topic isn’t about Shadow’s Return being bugged, there is already a thread about that. The thread is about Shadow’s Return getting NERFED. It didn’t. It got fixed.

That’s… Not even the right skill…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return

Note that it also says “return to your original location”, not “teleport in the direction you started from up to 1200 meters”. Furthermore, since when was intent a necessary indicator of whether or not something was good?

Oops, I linked an inferior version of basically the same skill, but with a 60sec Cooldown. My bad.

And the skill does infact bring you back to your original location. However, if you put a rock between you and the location, don’t be surprised when you find that a rock has more mass than even a Norn can acquire.

My argument against the Thief “whine”:

You are a class that has almost the most mobility, almost the highest burst, literally the best PvP mechanic in the game, and cry when the devs fix something that clearly wasn’t working as intended.

You are a great PvP class when used within a team (unheard of, I know), have amazing utility for PvE content, and can do almost everything but soak up damage.

If you ever sit and wonder why everyone else associated with the game find your player base a laughing stock, look no further than the QQ from the recent patch.

Stardrift.7360:

McFribble.2349:

Please don’t cry fowl because you can’t 1v1 in a team oriented game

Your post is contradictory. Since it`s a 1v1 setting, hence the group situation is taken out, if you can`t 1 v 1 someone that means the class is broken beyond repair. I don`t want to mop up. I don`t want to run away with my tail between my legs and i don`t want to skulk like a rat till everyone leaves a point so i can take it.

Your post is completely contradictory to what a Thief is SUPPOSED to do. Sorry it took you 80 levels to find out the class isn’t the merry-sue character you wanted it to be. Your choice of class based on your wants makes about as much sense as someone choosing an Elementalist without intent to cast spells. You only have yourself to blame.

As far as the 1v1 setting is concerned, you are only in a 1v1 setting if you put yourself there. For a team-oriented game, I find 1v1 balances laughable at best, especially when most of the classes in the game don’t even have a viable 1v1 build, let alone a GOOD one. But if that is your thing, you have the option to do so. Just don’t be surprised when you are miraculously useless in a team fight and cause your teammates to get kitten y with thieves because the majority trait for themselves and not for the team.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

McFribble.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

McFribble.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Obviously, those who are saying that this is a “bug fix” have not played GW1 at all and have no idea what they are talking about.

THIS IS NOT A BUG FIX!

That’s all I have to say about that.

Obviously anyone who sees this as anything more than a bug fix don’t know how to read. The skill CLEARLY stated it only had a 1,200 range (lol, “only”).

If you cannot justify why this is a bug, then it is not a bug.

If you think it is a broken skill because it’s too powerful, then say it as it is and not call it a bug.

It is insulting when their intention is to nerf it but hiding behind the pretense of a bug by calling it a bug. Don’t hide under the pretense that it is a bug, it only makes you dishonest.

Just call it as it is.

It is a NERF!

A bug fix is when Anet finds the time to fix our auto-attack timing — now that’s a bug fix worth praising.

Anet aren’t hiding under the pretense that it is a bug. WE are claiming it was a bug, and it has now been fixed. Anet did nothing to say their end but fix the bug at hand.

If this ultimately nerfs thieves, then it is a nerf that shouldn’t have happened in the first place (NOT in the favor for Thieves). Sorry if you have grown too comfortable with EZescape number 7 not working as intended for almost a year, but this is a fix thieves should have been getting ready for ever since it was made clear as day that the range to Shadow’s Return didn’t synch with it in practice.

So that’s all it takes now? To claim that it is a bug and it is so?

Like I said, you cannot justify it.

And you know what? NOW it is bugged and need fixing. When do you think they will fix that?

But hey, if it makes you superior over any thief whenever Anet nerfs us, then enjoy yourself….why are you even here?

I’ll start off by saying I am here because my main is in fact a Thief. Just because you “claim I don’t play a thief doesn’t make it so”.

Second, I don’t need to claim that Shadow’s Return was bugged prior to the patch, it was proven by the skill itself.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return_

1,200 range

Twelve
Hundred
Range

If it did any more than that (which it OBVIOUSLY did), it was bugged and not working as intended. This isn’t even up for debate, it is fact. The skill prior to patch did NOT work as intended. It now works within the listed range, albeit with a new bug in its place (no one is arguing this needs to be addressed). However, the topic isn’t about Shadow’s Return being bugged, there is already a thread about that. The thread is about Shadow’s Return getting NERFED. It didn’t. It got fixed.

Pendragon.8735:

Hit and run need not be dependent on stealth. DD Ele’s, especially prior the last few patches, were amazing at hit and run, and had no stealth.

It’s simply lack of creativity to claim that this is the only way to skin the cat for a thief type character.

But yes, moving the reveal timer back down to 3s for WvW was a mistake.

There is literally NOTHING wrong with the Thief’s design other than a few number tweaks. Most MMOs have stealth-based classes in infinite stealth until hit or attacking, with methods to re-stealth in combat. If anything, I’d say stealth is GW2 is very restrictive in more ways than not, especially when a single skill only allows a max of 10 seconds of it (not taking D/P thieves into account).

Complaining about Thieves is like complaining about Mesmer clones, is like complaining about Guardian boons. There was a point in time where people learned to adapt to the game, and not cry about the game conforming to them. Those days are obviously long past.

Thieves are a solid class that have a purpose (as much as Thief players would like to say otherwise). While they can be annoying, it is what they are designed to do (and as much as non-thief players want to admit, that is okay). SOME tweaks do have to be made, but the outcry from both Thieves and Thief haters has gone to insane proportions that make both ends of the spectrum look like idiots (is it against the forum rules to call a non-specific person an idiot? Sorry if it is mods, I’ll edit if need be).

little ceasar.9254:

Skill lag and all that of course. But as far as changing actual game mechanics I would agree with the downed state in wvw.
Absent removing downed state completely:
Remove or tweek the rally feature. I’ve seen half a Zerg res off a player that dc’s.
– or 20+ removes rally, 40+ skips downed state

This wouldn’t penalize small groups and could balance the fights if skill is in their side. We do not need an aoe cap removal or buff ex: arrow carts. Look at the unbalanced those have caused.

Or just get rid of Rally/Downed state for everyone EXCEPT servers that are Outmanned.

Really, they are the only one’s who need it other than baddies who are looking to mist-form back into their tower.

Excalibur.9748:

a small group should NOT be more effective than a zerg.

^^^ This.

No matter what word you use for it, a “Small Group” of people working as one unit shouldn’t and will never be as effective as a “Zerg” of people working as one unit.

If you want to use smaller groups, by all means do so. 4-5 people is all that is needed to harass enemy supply camps and maybe take a paper tower, drawing attention away from the meat of the team as they do their work. But if you are seriously suggesting that 4-5 people should be able to take over a fully upgraded tower against 20+ defenders, you are smoking some serious stuff I want a hit of.

The only, and I mean ONLY, thing Thieves need changed is the reveal timer increased by a second or two. This leaves Thieves open for attacks a little longer, makes setting up their powerful hits take that much longer, and reduces healing down a small amount.

Literally everything a Thief excels at happens almost always in stealth. Just increasing reveal by a small margin will ultimately nerf Thieves to an acceptable rate. If you are complaining because of the design choice about a class that is made to harass and make “hit and run” tactics, I suggest you stop playing competitive role-playing games all together.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

McFribble.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Obviously, those who are saying that this is a “bug fix” have not played GW1 at all and have no idea what they are talking about.

THIS IS NOT A BUG FIX!

That’s all I have to say about that.

Obviously anyone who sees this as anything more than a bug fix don’t know how to read. The skill CLEARLY stated it only had a 1,200 range (lol, “only”).

If you cannot justify why this is a bug, then it is not a bug.

If you think it is a broken skill because it’s too powerful, then say it as it is and not call it a bug.

It is insulting when their intention is to nerf it but hiding behind the pretense of a bug by calling it a bug. Don’t hide under the pretense that it is a bug, it only makes you dishonest.

Just call it as it is.

It is a NERF!

A bug fix is when Anet finds the time to fix our auto-attack timing — now that’s a bug fix worth praising.

Anet aren’t hiding under the pretense that it is a bug. WE are claiming it was a bug, and it has now been fixed. Anet did nothing to say their end but fix the bug at hand.

If this ultimately nerfs thieves, then it is a nerf that shouldn’t have happened in the first place (NOT in the favor for Thieves). Sorry if you have grown too comfortable with EZescape number 7 not working as intended for almost a year, but this is a fix thieves should have been getting ready for ever since it was made clear as day that the range to Shadow’s Return didn’t synch with it in practice.

redslion.9675:

When I go to warrior forum, I see:

people who say warriors suck

people who say warriors are fine and that other warriors just stick to sub-optimal builds.

The only thing I don’t see is people actually talking about BUILDS.

All build threads sink into 2nd page pretty fast.

This is what I have been running in WvW with quite a bit of success. I didn’t list food, because frankly I don’t use it when I play (so it can actually perform better than listed).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIIQNBhYDbkzJ5N2R4hJSggKohGFFBQcUAFMhSRbUHA-j0yAYLBZCCE9BmIAk8UWTgCilxioxqrxUuCpq4IbwLiWNA-w

Nothing roots me, I deal enough damage, and can take hits to survive most Glass Bursts long enough to react to it or escape.

DanH.5879:

that is the question i like for a-net to answer
WHERE we fit in a team ?!? what is our job ?
just dodging around 1 more time than the other classes if we spec for it ?? is this all the thief is best at ?
i am not talking about wvw…

Cleaning up. That is was a thief is best at. Please tell me a class that is better at sticking to a target than Thief (I’d love a good laugh).

In a PvP setting, NO ONE will get away from a Thief. You know that person who just got dropped to 10% life and is about to get away? Kill him.

You know that teammate who just got dropped? Refuge and pick him up.

You know that straggler running to his teammates for help? Stone him with Basalisk Vemon and watch him get zerged (yes, zergs exists in tPvP).

The problem with players in GW2 (not just thieves, but them too) is that everyone wants it all. Sure, Warriors may do more damage on paper to thieves, but the crap they need to blow just to SETUP that damage is insane to how easy it is for Thieves to burst AND be able to escape.

In a PVP setting, Thieves are pure harassment in a team fight. The class is NOT called assassin, so get that mindset out of your head. Literally NO OTHER class in the game has means of stomping a downed player in the middle of an enemy zerg (Shadowsterp-Stomp). Please don’t cry fowl because you can’t 1v1 in a team oriented game, and PLEASE don’t say we serve no purpose just because you can’t wrap our mind around traiting for team purposes.

As for PvE, no other class can turn the tides of a boss fight from a near wipe to a full recovery. I have single handedly rezzed 4 COMPLETELY dead players in a boss fight while still holding aggro to prevent a reset. I’m not saying it is easy, but it is absolutely doable with a little patience and attention to detail (something that should come naturally to anyone looking to roll a “Thief”).

Kajiri.8215:

This made thieves weaker, so it is a nerf by definition, regardless of it being a bug fix or not. Since when are these terms mutually exclusive?

Thieves were riding on a broken skill that was working in their favor. Now they have to adapt to the skill as it was originally intended.

It isn’t a nerf, because the skill works exactly as it was described, and no better since day 1.

The term “if it ain’t broken; don’t fix it” only applies when something isn’t actually broken…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Obviously, those who are saying that this is a “bug fix” have not played GW1 at all and have no idea what they are talking about.

THIS IS NOT A BUG FIX!

That’s all I have to say about that.

Obviously anyone who sees this as anything more than a bug fix don’t know how to read. The skill CLEARLY stated it only had a 1,200 range (lol, “only”).

Leadfoot.9071:

style.6173:

It is easy to counter

Someone care to share how you can counter it? I more or less agree with OP and MIrra that it seems a bit too much… it can be spammed almost constantly with init regen traits and it does a ton of damage.

It requires 6 initiative out of 12 total. How can you “spam” an attack that can only get two consecutive uses before completely tapping out your resources as a class?

Stop being a horrible player and learn to to dodge the attack. The second you have a boon on you, you KNOW the thief is going to try and take it from you.

EDIT: The total Initiative costs is actually 4, allowing you to use it 3 times. I still fail to see the crying.

Zayle.7253:

It’s an elite that is merely a performance increase. Aside from it being the most boring elite in the game, thieves can experience it too with Larcenous Strike! Sharing is caring.

Just throwing out a CRAZY thought here…

If you see a Thief wielding a sword in mainhand…maybe…not use SoR?

That would totally work, right? It’s not like Sword Thieves have pretty average damage or anything that would require you to pop SoR to bring down.

I run full http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Melandru + Dogged March trait.

I run Greatsword/Sword+Warhorn.

Conditions don’t last long on my Warrior, and if I want to move, I can move, and it doesn’t hamper my damage too much.

XII.9401:

I think anyone thinking that a class is fine based on hot joins against weak pvpers should seriously rethink their general outlook at life.

I think anyone who feels someone should change their general outlook on life based on a video game should change their general outlook on life.

That being said, Warrior is in a rough spot for PvP. The problem stems from a heavy penalty to damage for protection trade offs, more so than most classes in the game. High health pools are nice, but can only get you so far when your healing is only “so-so”.

BurrTheKing.8571:

People seem to be getting confused as to what form of play we are talking about. I personally don’t even consider WvW to be PvP, more like PvE with PvP elements. The key difference is that in WvW you can use food to make up for warrior’s shortcomings. Not to mention if you are fully geared out with Exotics and Ascended gear then of course you will do better than even multiple foes. Spoiler alert, most people in WvW don’t have great gear. The people who spend time on the forums like us tend to have invested a good amount of time into our characters and therefore we don’t hear from the majority, who tend to be more casual or at the very least haven’t optimized their build.

In SPvP there is no food, and this is where warrior is the weakest. Can you do well if you are more skilled than your foe? Of course you can. Will you lose the majority of fights 1v1 vs. a similarly skilled (even slightly less skilled) mesmer, ranger, or blind thieves, most likely. I just started to play guardian and already I’m see just how much better designed the class is as a whole. I see a whole lot less perks where I go “that’s useless,” which I do constantly with warrior. The traits also have a lot more synergy than warrior, so many that give additional buffs when you use aegis or different ways to apply burn or have interesting effects like boon stripping.

Meanwhile, warrior’s traits are much less interesting and more importantly don’t synergize anywhere near as well. In TPvP warriors don’t really “fit” into any role that another class couldn’t do better. You CAN bring one but then you’re team will probably have to build around having one.

Food really doesn’t make WvW any better for Warrior, seeing as how ANY class can bring food the the table… Not to mention you are saying that WvW is a non-issue for Wars due to gear difference (I…..what?). Not really a valid argument.

If War isn’t balanced in tPVP, he isn’t balanced in ANY form of PvP, period. I don’t know why people try so hard to separate WvW from tPvP. If a class is underperforming in one, he will underperform in the other for all the same reasons.

Most people run GS/Axe+Shield, but I have been using GS/Sword+Horn.

Why would anyone ever use Axe+Shield? Sword + Warhorn gives Warriors all the mobility they always cry for. I run away from 1vZerg situations almost as well as Thieves. The difference is, the zerg doesn’t expect me to get away.

Easy answer: Roll a Thief for PvP. I’m not saying to play a Thief because they are great, I am saying it so you have more insight on what is going on on their end.

Thief was my main. I have a pretty good feel for how to run him. Now on my Warrior, I laugh at Thieves in team fights, because although they are invisible, I know their mindset and what they are planning. I see Shadow’s Refuge, they’re going to eat a Stomp, a Bull Rush, and 100blades For Great Justice.

Hopefully the message is clear. Fix class balance before throwing down new content. But who am I kidding? You can’t sell balance on the gem store.

…or can you?

Arcing Slice has one real problem in it’s design: It is a terrible burst skill. When the meta for damage based Warriors is to keep adrenaline at max for the 12% Damage and 9% Crit Chance bonus, what is the point to using Arcing Slice at all…? It offers us Fury, which is very appropriate for the weapon, but the cost for using the attack FAR outweigh the gain, and people usually forget the attack exists for good reason.

By making this a weapon skill provides the Warrior with fury, this turns the Greatsword a very self-reliant weapon for what it is supposed to do: get crits. And because Arcing Slice is a 3/4 second cast time, it is a very quick hit, staying true to the more fast and mobile nature of the weapon.

In my opinion, the skill should read like this:

Arcing Slice 3/4, 10 Sec CD
Deliver an uppercut to your foe and gain fury.

Damage: ####
Fury(5s): 20% Critical Chance

I feel Arcing Slice should hit slightly harder than it currently does, but not by much.

These changes, in my opinion, offer the Warrior more reliable weapon skills while freeing up his utilities for more defensive skills in PvP. In PvE, this will help bring more strategy to DPS instead of relying in one skill, and forces the Warrior to time his strikes and 100blade uses more strategically.

Suggestion to improve Greatsword for Warrior in a PvP setting, and to balance him in a PvE setting.

Switch Hundred Blades with Arcing Slice, so that 100blades is now the burst skill and Arcing Slice is Weapon Skill 2, both with minor tweaks to work correctly like this.

This does a lot of things to help improve the Warrior, and I’ll start off with Hundred Blades.

There are many problems this skill produces
- Roots the player on a very mobile oriented weapon, turning the player into a close range turret, and very clunky
- Requires a lot of utility to make work in a PvP setting, and still isn’t reliable against decent opponents
- Makes PvE content far too easy for the high damage output
- Is a better attack than the burst skill for the weapon

Hundred Blades changes as a burst skill should read and function as follow:

Hundred Blades 3 1/2, 15 Sec CD
Burst: Repeatedly strike multiple foes at 50% movement speed. Swings and damage of final strike based on adrenaline.

Adrenaline 1: Damage (2x) #### + Final Strike Damage: ####
Adrenaline 2: Damage (4x) #### + Final Strike Damage: ####x2
Adrenaline 3: Damage (8x) #### + Final Strike Damage: ####x3

This allows the player to move while casting the attack, making it different from the One-Handed Sword burst and allows the damage to fluctuate base don Adrenaline level. The damage output should be comparable to what it currently is at level 3 adrenaline, but using the attack will obviously set your bar down to zero, making it a “finishing” move that should punish the Warrior for using it too soon or missing (no + stats based on adrenaline).

Now the reasoning for making Arcing Slice a weapon skill in my next post:

Rednik.3809:

McFribble.2349:

If anything, that video proves how bad mechanic downed state is. That ranger probably could have taken out two or three of them without it, but “lol” at any skillful play in Guild Wars 2, amiright?

Ganking PvE guys is now called a “skillful play”? Sure…

Yes…?

If a bunch of PvE players who have little clue how to PvP take on a PvP player, how is it NOT skillful play for the PvP player to come out on top? The PvP player is more skilled in PvP, therefore it is a skillful play.

You sure have a weird definition of the word if you think otherwise.

D/D is a more skill-based build for PvP. If you are performing well with D/D, you will dominate with D/P.

Karolis.4261:

So constant 4-6 might stacks from 25 in SA in ACTUAL COMBAT provide more damage then extra 250-300 power and 10 % extra damage passive ( when target has condition on it and it allways has) ? Made my day. I even doubt that 10 stacks is possible when chaining cnd w/o revealing yourself because in that time some stacks will simply fall off (You need 16 s to chain 5 Cnd and thats a long time. That trait gives might stacks on stealth pulse, not for time you sit in stealth).10 stacks is possible only using shadow refuge or smoke field+5 hs.
10 stacks of might = 350 extra power vs 250-300 extra power and 10% extra damage, do your math…

Literally every class in the game stacks might. The difference for Thieves being that they actually need to trait into Might to do it, since they have no skills or utilities that do it for them. So what are you crying about again?

Rednik.3809:

Fjandi.2516:

Watch the video posted above, there’s nothing more to say. If you still don’t realize how stupid current downed state mechanic is in wvw…well nvm you know what i mean…

Oh noes, poor ranger tried to gank lone PvE lolzerk warrior, don’t want to save stability for stomp and don’t want to have any blind abilities to prevent anti-stomp knockdown. Lol’d at this video, really.

If anything, that video proves how bad mechanic downed state is. That ranger probably could have taken out two or three of them without it, but “lol” at any skillful play in Guild Wars 2, amiright?

Signets are for personal use.

Banners are for Team use.

If a Signet offers 180 Power to the Warrior, but the Banner offers 170 Power to each player, what one do you honestly think is better in a team situation? If you say Signet, you are an awful player who needs to stick to solo PvE content only.

Oil single handedly stalls a group from siegeing a gate for a good minute or two. How is that in anyway useless…?

Just because you aren’t wracking up kills from it =/= serves no purpose.