I keep saying. Fix balance in wvw classes and everything else will seem smaller issues.
an easy solution would be to introduce the SPvP system.
Just pick your weapons, sigils, runes and an amulet.
This would make it easier to balance classes + they can keep the rewards / loot that they have as it can be used for people their Pve Mode chars.
But leave foods in wvw for some diference. It would be emough for some more diversity. Altho i wont see it happen due to currency etc.
I keep saying. Fix balance in wvw classes and everything else will seem smaller issues.
Last few dats ive been discussing builds possibilitys alternative sigils gear etc and with the new server match up got up against reallt good players playing warrior ,eles, dh ,thiefs and chronos and it proved me right before some friends eyes and spectators necro camt kill these classes in power mode at all. Many tried this classes today as i asked them to(when my skill level was brought up) and some lasting a bit more on necro had the same end result. Only LUCK helps necros in these matchups. So back to my other toons wich have a chance against these classes.
I ll try again but overall seems that ill be lacking from staff range options aswell.
Tbh just balance classes first then worry about the rest. If balance not fixed new content doesnt matter.
Lol i just tried this and how do u even survive thiefs with this build? Because got easily kited all the time and burned down after he saw my boons end. No chance whatsoever for 4 tines in a row.
Shield is really fine as it is. With the right sigils its ofensive and more healling tha u think
Well your build seems interesting Okami i will try DD/gs and will give feedback on it. Thanks for the info.
Lastly, I am offended that we’re “performing well” in every game mode when the commonly expressed opinion is that we’re just scrubbing by.
The vast majority of people in WvW play in a zerg or guild raid, necro does fine there, go ask rangers, engies, thieves, etc how wanted / useful they have been in large scale WvW over the last 4 years.
So rangers engies and thiefs dont NEED babysitters but can still zergsurf just being less usefull in a zerg but can be awesome at picking up the tails of said zergs… i feel your pain… must be horrible being selfsuficient with tools to fight every class in a 1 vs1 and escape when outnumbered.
The point really went over your head didn’t it…
For the thing the vast majority of players do in WvW which is zerg or guild raids, necros are fine so are “performing well” and pretty much always have been fine, and are in a far better position that certain other classes, to the point many WvW guilds did not even recruit certain classes for much of the last 4 years.
If you think they are going to balance for roaming then your are either new to this game or deluded, they barely even make any balance changes for WvW large scale, so the idea they will balance for roaming is well… The game is 4 years old, so that isn’t going to change now, is it.
So either suck up the lack of disengage on a necro for roaming or play warrior/mes/thief/ranger like 80% of scrub roamers do in this game or find a game that is actually good for roaming and not trash like WvW is, because your necro’s roaming situation is very unlikely to change.
Check the spvp forums and you ll see its not only wvw that necros suffer from survival/escaping. Im not new to the game and i know as many people do that necro is not in a good place or fairing quite well on all game modes.
Didnt gather much from it there was a lag problem. But even tho unblockable abilities hurt dont think it would change the outcome most of the times. Dh over necro from my experience with other necros in wvw.
I have bought wvw armor now, so you can duel me outside of pvp if you want.
Sure. Maybe tomorrow afternoon m8. Wont be home till late night tonight.
If its that strong why is it the class most discussed and players complain the most?
Lastly, I am offended that we’re “performing well” in every game mode when the commonly expressed opinion is that we’re just scrubbing by.
The vast majority of people in WvW play in a zerg or guild raid, necro does fine there, go ask rangers, engies, thieves, etc how wanted / useful they have been in large scale WvW over the last 4 years.
So rangers engies and thiefs dont NEED babysitters but can still zergsurf just being less usefull in a zerg but can be awesome at picking up the tails of said zergs… i feel your pain… must be horrible being selfsuficient with tools to fight every class in a 1 vs1 and escape when outnumbered.
Ill take you up on that offer of duel. Just for the fun as i dont think necro beats a good engi.
Didnt gather much from it there was a lag problem. But even tho unblockable abilities hurt dont think it would change the outcome most of the times. Dh over necro from my experience with other necros in wvw.
From a post conversation i ve had before get used to it, necros are not gonna get love and are not confortable to play. For roaming its horrible, sometimes i can feel invincible because i got everything perfect and fought players ,not good ones ,just players that are not that good. Any necro that beats a 1vs2 is only as good as the other 2 are bad. But if you are a thief or warrior for ex you can sustain and possibly kill 2 easier or if they r any good last long enough running dodging blocking resistence using evading till they gave up or help comes.
What’s your build? Can you link it with GW2skills.net?
This but i use fried golden dumplins instead. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJARWnMbC91glbCebC0biljBL+G+DHiR9stVAgaJ8EiVA-TRCBABnpEMLlNfq+j+XAga2fAjHAAAHCgKOCAepUiUAsLyC-e and i might use zerker with marauder trinkets for more dps sometimes. Also switch to spite for more dps sometimes. Tried blood magic and the others but didnt like it since tales too long to kill most people.
You forgot to input your weapons but I’m going to assume they’re Zerker or Cavalier. Marauder I wouldn’t recommend, it’s more for Thieves in my opinion. You can get Trinkets with Zerker + Valk stats (it’s in the tab of Trinkets to choose from labeled exactly that) which I would recommend since you get more Power, more Ferocity, more Precision and slightly more Health. It looks to me like you’re not going for Power but rather Conditions instead? Staff benefits most on a Condi-build (from what I’m told that is) and if you’re running GS you need a speedy weapon to compensate for your slower DpS (which is why most people run Dagger/input off-hand [I run double dagger]). Spite is good, I currently run it as well as Blood Magic. It may seem weird but I like the sustain it provides, and with my build it’s perfect for how I play. It’s not really for damage, more like for healing/self-sustain but when used right it’s amazing.
I just tweaked some stuff to show how I would be running that kind of build (which to me seems like it’s meant to be more Tanky than offensive at the moment?):
All I did was swap out 3 of the Trinkets for full Zerker + Valk stats and went with Zerker weapons. Swapped out Staff for Dagger/Warhorn (solid LF regen from Dagger, Warhorn provides a hard CC and even more LF regen that benefits Dagger having to be up and close to its target). If you’re having issues from ranged enemies, Shroud 2 is a projectile buster and a leap that can easily close gaps (and it’s spammable) and with Speed of Shadows you’ll be able to hop in and out of Shroud faster. I grabbed Decimate Defenses instead of Chilling Victory because I replaced Curse with Spite. Since you have many, easy ways to keep Vulnerability capped your Crit Rate will almost constantly be boosted by 50% (of course if you have a wiggly opponent then I can’t guarantee the stacks staying if you can’t land the necessary blows). This allows you to crit constant, crit hard and do a decent amount of damage while only losing a measely 200-ish Toughness. Since you have Soul Reaping I assumed you wanted to be in Shroud as often as possible so I chose Rending Shroud that way even if you’re unable to land a blow on your target they’re still gaining stacks of Vulnerability unless they choose to disengage.
This is just my take, I’m a pure Power-based Necro and my build is a lot more risky than this but I do have more Power, Health and the same Ferocity. PvPing isn’t my thing but I can solo almost anything pretty well where I’m at right now.
Ive tried not to use staff but the sustain decreases even more. You miss on the condi transfer fear and chill plus unblocable damage. I also go zerker trinkets and run around 2550k power but from what i experienced having 1600tough or 1100 doesnt make a diference while outside shroud. Plus shroud 2 leap is usefull but every other class has more mobility and can easily kite necro hence the staff aswell. I can switch gs for axe/war but its no hard cc, that daze is a joke since it rarely proves usefull oonly i i see enemy using a long animation skill. If u noticed i got that sigil of speed plus intel for a gs combo. Works really well u pull with 5 and then just auto atack(faster does around 10 damage) or almost insta gravedigger( slighty slower but crits for over 10 without protection)
What’s your build? Can you link it with GW2skills.net?
This but i use fried golden dumplins instead. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJARWnMbC91glbCebC0biljBL+G+DHiR9stVAgaJ8EiVA-TRCBABnpEMLlNfq+j+XAga2fAjHAAAHCgKOCAepUiUAsLyC-e and i might use zerker with marauder trinkets for more dps sometimes. Also switch to spite for more dps sometimes. Tried blood magic and the others but didnt like it since tales too long to kill most people.
Hey CMC, why don’t you guys do something about GS if you already acknowledge that it is behind staff and main hand/wh for power builds? What’s the problem?
I don’t think staff is strictly better on power builds, but I valued the condi transfer, unblockable fear, and ranged life force generation pretty highly. I really wanted to run 5 shouts to maximize value with reaper rune and vuln on chill trait, so staff filled a lot of holes. I haven’t played much with GS but I imagine the build would be significantly different. Might try some stuff out this weekend for fun.
Quick question, is there anyone to answer wvw posts like you answer in PvP?
I really think that one day work could fix lets say 2 or 3 utilities for ex. In one class. Its so many minor changes that would make a big diference. I got into a fight today (after getting fed up with my dh) on my necro and my friend just laughed so hard when he saw my health go from full to 0 and shroud from full to 0 aswell in in 2 stuns after striped of stability by boon corrupt by 3 players. Necro needs shroud to be tougher or at least more sustain outside shroud. My wish is more insta shroud abilities so it makes it more viable
Did you just say you 1v3’d? Cuz you just said ‘by 3 players’ so yeah, of course you’re gonna get deleted. You’d have to be running a Tank to survive that much burst. Death Magic (yes, I know it’s destroyed right now) provides Toughness while in Shroud and Minions are a great way to soak up damage as well. I agree though, it shouldn’t be difficult to make changes that obviously need to be made. It’s starting to look like, to me, that ANET is afraid to change anything (which is hurting the game more than helping it).
Sorry i didnt explain better, i was focused by 3 but wasnt alone fighting them ofc. Point is i went from 26k health and shroud to 0 in less than 4secpre or less.
I really think that one day work could fix lets say 2 or 3 utilities for ex. In one class. Its so many minor changes that would make a big diference. I got into a fight today (after getting fed up with my dh) on my necro and my friend just laughed so hard when he saw my health go from full to 0 and shroud from full to 0 aswell in in 2 stuns after striped of stability by boon corrupt by 3 players. Necro needs shroud to be tougher or at least more sustain outside shroud. My wish is more insta shroud abilities so it makes it more viable
Sometimes i ask myself where do they put all the money they get from us players? Not into the game for sure. Cant imagine none of them ha ing a 40h week job at all when the patches r so mediocre every 2months..
Lol I love when people who don’t work in the gaming industry talk smack about Developers and Designers like this, just goes to show how little you know.
Im sorry for my ignorance. If you could please being aware of such dificulties and workwise explain to me the lack of content/fixes/balance(in some classes almost since release) i would be forever gratefull?
Look at it this way: how many classes are there? Now, how many skills/utilities are there within each class? What about the Trait lines? Think about the amount of math that would have to go into simply buffing the damage of, say, Axe for Necros. Not only do they have to see how that damage equates to the rest of the game (across all game modes) but you also have the Axe Trait to keep in mind, and when working with percentages (such as with that Trait) things get messy quickly. You also have to keep in mind that new content needs to be added to the game, otherwise it will stagnate and die. A Game Developer (which is what I’m in) has to use mathematics and coding/programming software to create the very boots you wear, let alone the stats accompanying them. A Game Designer has to conjure up characters/objects (down to the tiniest of details such as mugs and kegs) and test game mechanics to make sure bugs aren’t present and to make sure everything is running the way they intended it to. They can also be in charge of music, how the sound effects work, etc.
So there are (roughly) 12 Classes available in game, I believe there are like 6-8 Trait (including Elite Specialization) Paths you can choose from. Now add in the different weapons each class can use and you’ll see why it takes time and how hard it is to actually balance everything (and why balance is never perfect). ANET also has only about 25 Designers and 2 Programmers. Their team isn’t that big in comparison to, say Blizzard or even Hi-Rez studios. In fact their team is, what I’d call, small and needs more members (especially on the Programming side).
There’s a lot to making a game than simply inputting codes and downloading sound-effects with an artist to flesh things out, especially when it comes to MMOs (and especially when you have PvP and WvW to take into account as well, not just PvE).
Ok so regarding what you said ot seems to me theres more work than team members so i refrase: “why are they not getting more employees with the money they earned from the last 4 years?” And i wanna ask you as a client, do you think 4 years to solve CLEAR balance issues is not enought? Take a look at necro for example. The class is lacking so much in sustain and confort, its the forum that i notice complains the most ( with valid points ) every day. I made one since i got back in the game after almost 2 years break (due to lack of new content fixes) and i really understand why so much complains. For me fixing balancing in core classes and hot elites its better than getting another new expansion soon. It would bring more people back for sure after they see their class has gotten what they needed for years now. (Except warrior and DH wich i think are ok)
For pve necro is great.
Sometimes i ask myself where do they put all the money they get from us players? Not into the game for sure. Cant imagine none of them ha ing a 40h week job at all when the patches r so mediocre every 2months..
Lol I love when people who don’t work in the gaming industry talk smack about Developers and Designers like this, just goes to show how little you know.
Im sorry for my ignorance. If you could please being aware of such dificulties and workwise explain to me the lack of content/fixes/balance(in some classes almost since release) i would be forever gratefull?
Sometimes i ask myself where do they put all the money they get from us players? Not into the game for sure. Cant imagine none of them ha ing a 40h week job at all when the patches r so mediocre every 2months..
They wont. They dont care. Each balance patch that comes out seems to bring things only the minority asked for.
Hope they bring dual axe for necro with melee damage aoe with evades and lf generation.
Dont to it. Trust me it ll consunw ur time and after a month or 2 ull just get kittened that fixes/balances dont come as u want them.
I have tried curses as i use it very often and got good necros figting me in my dh. You can spam all the unblockables you want i will outdps you and outheall even if i go on melee range all the time. If i decide to kite i will kite necros and staff isnt enought to burst me.
Dagger/Warhorn – Axe/Focus – Curses/Soul Reaping/Reaper on mixed Berserk/Knights Gear and a well timed NCSY to destroy your rotation. Maybe also a Dagger 3 + Well of Suffering/Corruption. You’re perma weakened (YAAW, Weakening Shroud, corrupted Might). You won’t neither kite nor outdps me.
Ok can you show me ingame then? I wanna test that
So today i got in wvw duelling a dh wich is as good as i am on my own DH(my main) and i tweaked changed circled around various builds and utilities and knowing how to counter my own class there s just no way to beat a DH as power necro if he knows his stuff.
On Necro/Reaper you can spec to completely unblockable (Staff Marks, NcsY, Corrupt Boon, Warhorn 4, Wells) and since power burst is DH’s hardcounter I really have no idea what you are talking about.
After his 2 dodges and Renewed Focus he’s dead.
And run Curses instead of Spite! Spite has become useless in PvP. It’s brute force damage vs. boon spamming. Adressing the boons (via Curses traits) is smarter and way more effective.
Most people who say Power Reaper is weak in PvP/duells never tried Curses. (Traits: Plague Sending, Path of Corruption, Weakening Shroud)
I have tried curses as i use it very often and got good necros figting me in my dh. You can spam all the unblockables you want i will outdps you and outheall even if i go on melee range all the time. If i decide to kite i will kite necros and staff isnt enought to burst me.
Stealth should not stack at all. You get syealth for x time and thats it like regular games with stealth. Want more stealth? use the other abilitie that also gives stealth and wait for the mext cooldowns to get it back. This way no thief would ever get in and out of fights when they feel like it. If im a necro in wvw and a see a thief or warr or dh or any other class that has more mobility i either choose to fight or i choose to fight because theres no escaping as a necro. But also as many classes without stealth i wont be able to run in to a group of 2 to 4 or 5 and annoy them try to kill someone and then run away, sure you can say dh and warriors can do that but eventually cooldowns will kill them and cc. As thief with just a few stacking (not perma stealth) you can still do this due to best mobility in game and stealth and burst damage. What i would like to see is stealth being used as opening for surprise atack and another stealth to run away if things go south without getting back in and out as they please with 9 reliable dodges plus stealth plus cc.
Apparently you think that thieves have unlimited Initiative which they don’t you can’t stack stealth and have super high mobility, since both require a very huge amount of Initiative and subject to Weapon swap CDs. Thieves best mobility comes in the form of SB 5 a spammable 6 Initiative 900 range Shadowstep, guess what if he is doing that he isn’t stacking stealth, the main way Thieves abuse stealth Stacking is D/P with BP and HS which costs 8 Initiative total (so no spamming SB 5 for mobility going on) with multiple instances to interrupt them because precasts and after casts.
Also as stated before every other mmo has stealth that lasts indefinitely till canceled and does not have a 3-4 second base duration. Aso there is the revealed mechanic which locks Thieves out of stealth from anywhere from 3-30 seconds depending on how the thief is revealed, also stealth can only be stacked up to a maximum of 5 times at any given time.
Now if the games Stealth had a 1 sec ICD on stealth application then it completely neuters Stealth stacking all it takes is a little simple math comprehension and knowing the ways Thieves enter Stealth you would see that.
It seems like you just don’t know how to handle Thieves and they are a counter to Reapers/necro in general if played well so I can see why you are being a little salty, (every class in game has at least one very strong counter to them. )
If they ever change that ICD to 1sec and it works ill agree with you. I dont actually die that much to thiefs in wvw as a ppwer reaper mainly because they r bad. But the same happens in my main DH, till i find that one good thief that has mechanichs that allows him to burst down a dh trough exausting their cds. I ve tried duelling such good thiefs and it comes down to luck even with reveal trap. Ots so much easier to counter a DH as soon as u know wich weapons he s using.
F2 needs some sort of counter play. It’s fine as it is today.
It actually be a nerf in terms targeting where to go but more Qol .
Stealth should not stack at all. You get syealth for x time and thats it like regular games with stealth. Want more stealth? use the other abilitie that also gives stealth and wait for the mext cooldowns to get it back. This way no thief would ever get in and out of fights when they feel like it. If im a necro in wvw and a see a thief or warr or dh or any other class that has more mobility i either choose to fight or i choose to fight because theres no escaping as a necro. But also as many classes without stealth i wont be able to run in to a group of 2 to 4 or 5 and annoy them try to kill someone and then run away, sure you can say dh and warriors can do that but eventually cooldowns will kill them and cc. As thief with just a few stacking (not perma stealth) you can still do this due to best mobility in game and stealth and burst damage. What i would like to see is stealth being used as opening for surprise atack and another stealth to run away if things go south without getting back in and out as they please with 9 reliable dodges plus stealth plus cc.
I agree with the f2. Only thing i would have changed.
Add me ingame, maybe I can show you
I will later this afternoon. Ill bring my DH
An interesting discussion. However, to be talking about the same thing the discussion should be split into two factors. (Disclaimer, I’m a thief main, but trying to stay objective)
1. Stealth Stacking.
In my opinion there is currently too much of this. Both thief and mesmer can stay in stealth for prolonged periods of time. However, many of their builds need stealth to stay alive.. Not easy to fix.. However, people often don’t slot reveals, because that would hurt their build against other opponents. Pick your poison I’d say.2. Condition Damage.
It is too easy to stack a lot of conditions on people that do a lot of damage, for a whole range of classes. On top of this the standard condition clearing options take longer to get off cooldown vs the condition applying ones. So the game highly favours those using conditions.However, I do find that many people complaining simply don’t have enough clears in their build and then start to complain about conditions being out of control.
This style of playing combines both of these topics into an annoying and possibly deadly combination. So even though I agree that this type of gameplay shouldn’t be available it is not so easy to fix.
Both these issues should be discussed, for all classes, not just for this particular build or class. Because imo this isn’t a thief problem, in fact I do believe this type of thief play is in use because the class lacks in other departments. But that is the thief in me speaking. :P
But even if someone equips reveals and cleansing condis, a good thief still has enought mobility to run away for 5sec and restart the atack while burning the cds on the reveals and condi clearing. It is as it is no point defending this anymore.
Its shamefull no devs ever reply to this posts, they are all well aware of how poor their work is classes in wvw are so imbalanced. Stealth thiefs still and issue and necros being free loots bags.
So today i got in wvw duelling a dh wich is as good as i am on my own DH(my main) and i tweaked changed circled around various builds and utilities and knowing how to counter my own class there s just no way to beat a DH as power necro if he knows his stuff. Anyone care to share an awesome build to prove me right or duel in game?
I d suggest those traps do damage that reveals from stealth. Just a small amount of direct damage.
Bad idea. The trap will become unusable as it was before.
They had direct damage before and no thief used them because they could get the thief killed . In that respect they were very much like that forced “last refuge”.
The issue is not traps. There only one trap used in this build. Again I can lay down 11 confusion stacks from stealth without using a single trap.
But if a dh deals damage using trapper runes or ranger druid it breaks stealth aswell. No class should be able to do damage while in stealth i say that again.
You compare apples to oranges. A thief build relies on stealth for defenses, health gain, condition cleanses and to set up their number 1 stealth attacks. Stealth is an integral part of a thief build and an entire traitline and numerous skills and traits provide it.
The DH has advantages all of its own. Stealth is just a bonus they can garner through a set of runes. It not integral to their build.
But a thief can also run runes of the trapper and spam traps to get more stealth right?those traps dont deal damage.
1sec still feels like they ll be able to be quite some time in stealth. I would agree if they did not have the huge ammount of mobility they have already. Seems thiefs still want to stealth long enought to be able to fight while using stealth. Should be a getaway button or opening damage for the surprise atack nothing else.
I d suggest those traps do damage that reveals from stealth. Just a small amount of direct damage.
Bad idea. The trap will become unusable as it was before.
They had direct damage before and no thief used them because they could get the thief killed . In that respect they were very much like that forced “last refuge”.
The issue is not traps. There only one trap used in this build. Again I can lay down 11 confusion stacks from stealth without using a single trap.
But if a dh deals damage using trapper runes or ranger druid it breaks stealth aswell. No class should be able to do damage while in stealth i say that again.
Balance classes for wvw first. Reduce limit of players in 1 map. Insert /duel option and nake it do the players duelling cannot receive or do damage to/from anyone else.
I d suggest those traps do damage that reveals from stealth. Just a small amount of direct damage.
Id be happy if they brought core to the elite level. I miss playing old builds and dont agree with needing elites to be succesfull
Chopsticks…..
Any possibility to explain why threads like this are not made about balance in the professions forums? Nobody asks and its really important to have balance instead of room for farming materials.
Different team
Doesnt seem to exist “a team” since it never happened.
Why r the changes so insignificant? Why not balance classes properly just IN WVW that would make most people happy
In actually gonna create a thief today and see how easy it is. Never played one and nly have basic knowledge on some skills they have. If what i see in the video allows me to perform just as good well… kinda says it all
Point is, anyone thinks this requires skill? Even if he is not the best thief being able to mantain 100 stealth time while doing a lot of damage is broken. If he s smart like a see in many ex in the videos he can just burn Cds on people that ha e few options as cleansing. Dont defend this it is a stupid way of playing that rewards too much for not every class with tools to defend itself.
I dont agree at all with new expansion rendering old builds and specs 70% les usefull