Guild Wars 2

First at tall that video shows nothing related to how strong mallyx/revenant is. They are a 3 ppl guild team with high pvp and wvw experience, guard stacks and bufffood while picking out some people which are: random players / no group, most of these are people with low experience as you can see by their gameplay or ingame titles who also don’t have bufffood or guard stats. Also there are some upscaled against them.

The problem in such videos where you beat people in x vs y (with x<y) that x is much higher expirenced than y and is a team. Yes it shows what is possible, and sometimes things are possible way to easy (like beating solo 3 lvl 80 with a condi pu mesmer lol)
But usually those videos don’t show the weaknesses, all those situations where they failed. That’s why I usually prefere videos from duells where they also get beaten, maybe even against the same person/build they played against before. Or x vs x guild fights where both sides are premade and where they actually have a fair equal battle.

Yes I agree mallyx is strong in some aspects. I played duells with a similiar build vs my friends from my roaming guild which are also high expirenced. The survival is fine, but it lacked in damage in the last beta. At all I had maybe a 15% winning chance.
(Have to mention: most of them didn’t ran a condition build, so I couldn’t use their conditions as a damage boost of mine. I played against Shatter Mesmers, Engis which dealt at least some conditions, condi necro, thiefs, ele and warriors.)
At all a problem i expirenced was those skills which add more condition stacks if you have more conditions then him didn’t work out well against non condi classes. Maybe as an opener when you get cripled/vulnerability sth like that, or apply a condition to yourself as. But just an opener usually after that you have always less conditions then them.

We shouldn’t forget most people are not used to play revenant yet. So we will get a little bit better with time (me included) , but other people will also find counters for them.

Condi necros are still hardconter against it. I played a few duells against one who played signet condi. Each signet already converts 2 boons from me. And he can send all those conditions back as well (1x with dagger, 1x with staff, 1x with sigil, 1x with trait). He just have to stripe my resistance after sending them back.
I won 1 of 5 duells, where he wasn’t careful enough and i could copy all conditions on him while he had nothing to send them back/remove them. So at all condi necros are still hardconter for any condi build.

But yes I agree currently you have high chances against other condi classes if you play yourself a condition build. I guess that is similar like necro due to it’s design choices.

Also as mentioned you have a easy counter against resistance: boon striping. Use them and they are dead as well since they “lack” in condition removes due to their design. (I think they still have a fine decent amount, but as you can see other don’t think so^^)
Necro’s and Mesmers have enough choices there. Thief’s got also a few options. Engineers only got the mine/minefield since they removed the trait that thrown elexiers remove a boom. Yes every other class currently doesn’t have access to it. If you really need it there is still the Superior Sigil of Nullification, but I guess that’s more worthless if another boon always get’s striped first.

Also don’t forget they have to be in close range to copy their conditions. Also many weapon skills require melee to mid range. So try to keep them on distance.

I have to admit I had a smiliar concern before as well. But testing it and counter options removed those for me.

I see a group of 5 players: 2 thiefs, 3 berserker ele thanks to smoke fields and all blast finishers + enough other group invisble spells they can go perma invisible. Also possible with (1 thief and 4 ele). And there isn’t much about you can do against that. Sure you can try to somehow interupt their stealth stacking, but thats really hard since they can stack up everywhere and you don’t know where till you maybe see a smoke field. Else your group can be killed by them without even seeing one of them.

Maybe you can survive the first round of 4 meteorshowers that deal 5000 damage per meteor, but what then? You have only 2 options trying to somehow interupt their stealth stacking. But even then they have still shadow refuge and blinding powder. Or run. (Okay there is still the stealth disrupter trap in WvW and with the Herald there will be an reveal aoe spell ) So there isn’t really a conter option.

Because of this issue: If you cast a skill from stealth that deals damage you must be revealed. Else it would completly break the game balance. (Okay its kinda broken in other aspects of balance already, but still)

I totaly agree and would like to see if someone casts an aoe damage spells like meteorshower that you can make him invisble to save him.
But a mechanic that can check whether the damage which is dealed is from a skill that you used before you went invisble or not, is way to complex and has a lot of potential bugs.
And we already had those bugs here were people didn’t get revealed correctly, and got killed without any chance. Annoying as hell. (For example a video from 30.04.2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlK0r19-1Ok)

Yes Mug/Sigil of leeching is going to make you visible when you steal from stealth.

Thats the reason why I probably not craft the juggernaut. Hoping that with HoT will bring us another great legedanry hammer. Or I will maybe go for Mjölnir.

But totally agree that the backback should have the effect as well, it looks so crappy if you have a backpack with juggernaut.
I know it only effects the few people got the juggernaut, but if you are doing such a hard work it should really look awesome in every aspect. And usually you don’t want to always hide your backpack when running around with juggernaut.

For condi damage currently grenades are better then mortar, they still provide 3 stacks bleeding, 3 stacks poison and work great with shrapnel because you throw 3 grenades and so you have 3x the chance of 15%. So with grenades you have a 38,58% percentage for additional 20sec of bleeding. While on mortar it’s only 15% (Yay finally stochastic in school had some sense)

They maybe should change it so that Mortar and Bombs get a higher chance then grenades to trigger it.

I currently use both in my hybrid build. But I use the grenades more offensively to higher direct and condi damage. With the bleeding, freeze and poison grenades I total deal about 3~4k direct damage. (If all grenades hit) + grenadebarrage of 6~9k damage.
On top still 3 stacks of the conditions.

Only when it comes to large scale fights where opponents have retaliation I use mortar. Mortar is more a utility kit for me. 2x Blast with F5, Blind-, Chill-, and Waterfield. Usually I mostly use poisonf field only when someone goes into downstate so opponents cant res him easily. F5 can be easily evaded and deals 3k damage twice on my hybrid build, while other skills deal 1~2k damage. But yeah if you have to go max range mortar is your kit.

I’m fine how they currently works, but I would like to see mortar’s blind field to be a smoke field instead of light. Also the poison field could get a little buff like longer poison duration or 2 stacks per pulse.

Zero Day.2594:

Not happening man.

There’s been traits data-mined that indicate we’re getting physical skills and our “elite” mechanic will be an extra dodge (150 endurance, instead of 100).

It’s about an idea of an possible upcoming specilaization. Not what will come with HoT release ;P

Does Revenants Renewing Wave removes conditions from himself?

Yes you got my point, but you have no solution for that points and still say that your solution is better than the current one of anet. And you say i am trolling, LOL!

I read your entire messages. If you are refering to the comparison to realtiy and that it would feel more natural. And I agree on that, that doesn’t always make sense in our natural world. But you can’t allow such indirect damage changes due to bigger problems like breaking game balance. (Thief + Ele team example from previous post)
Further it’ss a game, maybe each character has just the magic ability to backtrack incmoing damage, who knows.

I don’t know how you get revealed that often. Maybe it’s fact that you get revealed that often. But that is not a problem of each and every player.
For me I can say: this doesn’t happen to me that often. Maybe in 5% of the cases i accidentially kitten up my stealth. Also none of my roaming thief and mesmer friends complained that they get revealed that often. Yes of course you have to be aware of a lot of things.
I also don’t get revealed when using steal with hidden thief. I get revealed when i’m in stealth traited mug and then steal because it deals damage! And I also see that traits that make you invisible on dropping below a certian health percentage are a problematic because people have to be aware of it and can easily kitten their stealth up then so you cant stealth again.

I’m fine if there is a new stealth mechanic, but it shouldn’t suffer from other bigger problems like those I mentioned on your solution.

Really just check our how they make money with the gemstore… Selling black wings.. Selling white wings… Selling green glowing eyes… Selling red glowing eyes… Selling blue glowing eyes… Coming soon purple glowing eyes!

That greed makes me sick! Make those dyeable!!!

Broken? Its not broken. It is just how it works if you deal direct damage after you go in stealth you get revealed. Really simple.
The word broken means something doesn’t work like it should. But this is how it works since release and how anet thinks that it should work.
And yes Im fine how it currently works. Sure it has some problems but I don’t have a better solution for it. You don’t want to get a broken invisible mechanic fixed you want to improve a mechanic so some peoblens dont appear anymore or a completely new mechanic. And that us a huge difference. If something is broken you can’t use it. But stealth works ias it us desugned. It is not like you don’t get invisible. Or broken as meaning for overpowered.

And it seems like you don’t have a better mechanic, that is simple and doesn’t have the problems I mentioned. If you do convince me.

Mesmer and engi are my mains. And about 800~900 hours of play time on my mesmer. And I play for about 2 years mostly only PvP and wvw.

Of course sometimes this happens to me as well that I kitten it up. But that is how stealth works and what can be compensated easily by the skill of a player.
Also from a developer point: If they would change the mechanic of stealth there the potential of bugs is way higher because the stealth mechanic would be more complex.
And I already see the threads again with topics like “urgh I got killed from invis, opponent didn’t got revealed”
I’m a developer myself so I often see their side of problems as well. There is for example a software principle called KISS – keep it simple stupid, what says things things work best if they are simple https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle.

You could invis a ele which casts skills like lava fountain or meteor shower and they wouldn’t get revealed because that would be your so called indirect damage.

The Thiefs trap only deals conditions and those don’t reveal you. And that’s the point.
While the ranger traps deal a little direct damage and a huge amount of condition damage so they get revealed. If they wouldn’t get revealed they could completely kill you while they are invis.
Already head enough people who ran into the traps and died in 3 sec. If this would be indirect damage as well I could completely kill somebody from stealth. Probably even stomp him while I am in stealth!

And yes throw gunk and chaos storm deal direct damage while the thief’s trap doesn’t.

I totally agree with you that it’s a little annoying. But they just can’t do that.
The only thing that I could imagine is that they remove direct damage from some skills and make them condi only. But for me I wouldn’t like that on my chaos storm cause in a dual range shatter build it deals some nice decent damage.

Would be great if we finally get dyeable backpacks and weapons. But I don’t think that’s the case. :/

I thought it is a cool idea to have some kits like the enginner has. Maybe for a new upcoming specialization “ninja”. Those kits would give access to some special weapons like Nunchakus, Shuriken or a hook chain. Something like that. Even though I don’t play a thief, I think it would fit pretty well. What do you think?

Totally agree its fine that the profession mechanic change is bound to it. But weapons and skills? Why? Please remove it and offer us more build variety.

At wolfey they could add a panel for unlocking weapon types. By hero points for example. And if you don’t have HoT you can’t unlock that weapon type.

That is not a bug.
If you deal damage in invis you get revealed. Simple as that if you use a skill like chaos storm that dealse pulsing dmg and then go invis of course you get revealed.

To interrupt all your skills on going invis is also not a good option. First the behaviour would differ from usual skill chaining. Second what if an friend makes you invis? He would interrupt you!

Ever played engineer?
Try to throw elexier s when you have static discharge .. Doing so will trigger it and you get revealed. (Current SD is bugged and doesn’t trigger at all on many skills but earlier)
Or Dodge while you are invis with the trait that creates a bomb… Will reveal you too.

Or mesmer since last patch, who reflect on manipulation… Massinvis while a pew pew shots at you .. You go invis but since its a manipulation skill it will reflect the arrow which deals damage and you get visible.

That are some problems. But also those are no bugs.
It’s an issue in design how some skills synergize or in those cases not synergize. If I remember correctly you can map a key to stop your current action and then go invis. Else yeah wait till the action is finished. Or dodge roll to interrupt and then go invis.

If you dont time it right yeah than it’s your fault. Just requires some skill to deal with it.

I would be so happy if i could swap out that stupid heal skill for pvp/ small scale wvw! =D

@draxynnic this sounds interesting, but I guess they have to weaken the trait itself then. Like decreasing the duration to 1sec.

+1 for a ranged condi weapon.

It’s not the same to pick up a sigil with which you can keep up 3 stacks of bleeding thanks to your crits.
In beta most pure condi revenants ran with dual mace/axe. Sorry but I hate to run twice the same weapons. It just doesn’t feel right. But we don’t have another condi weapon option

Also nearly every other class has to option of 2 ranged weapons:
Ele: Staff, Scepter
Guardian: Longbow, Scepter, (Staff, only 600 range on AA)
Warrior: Longbow, Rifle
Engineer: Pistol, Rifle
Thief: Shortbow, Pistol
Ranger: Axe, Longbow, Shortbow
Mesmer: Staff, Greatsword, Scepter
Necro: Staff, Scepter, (Axe, only 600 range)

So another at least 600-900 range option for the revenant would be nice.
Already many people thought that this:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Revenant_02_concept_art.jpg
Is a bow.

So maybe add a shortbow with condi skills which usually has a range of <= 900.
So a rev has 2 weapons as options for a condition build. As well as a 2nd range weapon.

Some condi transfer sounds nice. But per dagger would be 6 condis transfered which is really strong. With 4 daggers it would still transfer more then Necros Weapon skills (Staff 4 and Dagger 4)
Also the necro has way to much condi transfer in my opinion with both weapon skills and the sigil. It’s such a hard conter to any condition class.

As I would really like to see something like that on Shiro, because it is similar to gw1 skills of shiro. I don’t belive in such a change because it already was stated that rev won’t get more condi remove.

As stated before 400hp/s is fine. (Ranger heal skills are way to strong atm, specially in combination with perma reg and sigil that gives reg) Yeah you have to hit all of the daggers. But even if you don’t i think this will be fine. Specially you got some more traits that also give health. (@Devs: If i remember correctly those didn’t scale with healing power, which should be changed)

Retalitation is a problem yes but I don’t think that this will be such a big deal. Decreasing the amount of daggers to 4 and increase siphon still wouldn’t be a spike, because it’s dealt over 4sec. Else it could be a venom like the thiefs one so its only 1 attack instead of two to get the healing and retalitation wont proc twice.
And yes a bigger initial heal would be gread, decrease siphon health gain to compensate.

PS: Duration/CD on thiefs heal venom is 30sec duration to 40 sec cd.
So the duration could be 20sec on Enchanted Dagger with 30sec cd.

Lol why do you want to force people to level this way. There are so many people out there with multiple stacks of this tomes so just let them use them usefully, finally.

Who cares? You don’t have to pick up a revenant if you dont want to.

Even on level 80 there are so many people that don’t know how to play their class! There are people out there on fractal level 50, which don’t even know the mechanics of bosses properly and/or how to use their skills to counter them!

Only from leveling in PvE you don’t know how to play your revenant in a dungeon.
You can completly solo rush your leveling in PvE by map completion and story which requires completly other builds than a dungeon does.

Only if they dungeons they will know how to play the revenant there. Player skill and dungeon expirence makes this of course much easier. Same for PvP and WvW. Or do you want that Revenants can’t join unranked/ranked matches before they played X custom arenas? Would be annoying as hell.

Similar problem exists for glints heal. Still would like to see a skill pool to pick another heal depending on the game mode / situation

nicknamenick.2437:

NeroBoron.7285:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burst_Mastery
states 10 adrenalin as well as ingame

oh yeah my mistake on dead or alive. still about 5k (as stated by dulfy) on 15sec cd, strong a usual heal and stronger then AED

“And about your weaknesses? Pretty much less dmg then STR/DEF/DISC”
Lesser damage compared to that yeah. But will be still enough I guess. And also no really weakness like lacking in stunbreakers/ condi remove / stability / movement options / self healing

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/How-does-Burst-Mastery-work-with-zerker/first#post5403934

About weaknesses? yeah well overall its less dmg.. but with the amount of sustain/cc etc it shouldnt be a big deal.. we see how it turns out.

Oh good to know.
Still with Versatile Rage you get 5 adrenalin on weapon swap(5sec dc) + 3 from Burst Mastery + 2 from sigil of rage. you can just spam those.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burst_Mastery
states 10 adrenalin as well as ingame

oh yeah my mistake on dead or alive. still about 5k (as stated by dulfy) on 15sec cd, strong a usual heal and stronger then AED

“And about your weaknesses? Pretty much less dmg then STR/DEF/DISC”
Lesser damage compared to that yeah. But will be still enough I guess. And also no really weakness like lacking in stunbreakers/ condi remove / stability / movement options / self healing

So my new op small scale warrior build will be:

Traits:

Discipline:
Warriors Sprint
Brawler’s Recovery
Versatile Power

Defense:
Shield Master
Defy Pain
Cleansing Ire

Berserker:
Savage Instinct
Dead or Alive
Bloody Roar

Utilities:
Outrage
tbd (Signet of Fury?)
tbd (Berserker Stance?)

Heal:
Healing Signet

Elite:
Signet of Rage / Head Butt

Weapons :
Sword / Shield
tbd

So what do we get?
- Passive 25% movement speed while wielding melee weapons. Also sword provides a great low cd gap closer. Pick up Greatsword if you want more movement stuff
- Burst Mastery gives us 10 adrenalin on F1 usage. Since F1 skills count as stage 3 adrenalin skills and only cost us only 10 adrenalin in berserker mode. whooo perma adrenalin.
- Combinated with Cleansing Ire, 3 Condis gets removed on spamming F1, hey this wont be a problem anymore thanks to Burst Mastery.
- Brawler’s Recovery and Savage Instinct for even more condi remove. (Pick up sigil of cleansing if this wont be enough yet, thanks to traits movement spells also remove imoblize)
- Outrage + Savage Instinct: 10sec and 12sec stun breakers. (Outrage also provides some nice adrenalin)
- Healing Signet for a passive reg of 350hp/s, still one of the strongest heals! And dont forget the Adrenal Health which are basically additional 145hp/s with nearly perma full adrenalin
- Dead or Alive: If we go to low and would die we get 5000hp thanks to Burst Mastery perma full adrenalin. (Don’t forget 12 sec cd on going rampage btw hp to cd ratio is 410hp/s way more than our strong heal skill already is)
- (If healing still isn’t enough pick up defender rune for additional 4k heal with 30sec cd after a block)
- Sword & Shield: Sword F1 in Rampage and Shield Master provide a great reflect against all those ranged classes.
- To get enough adrenalin quickly to go for rampage again we maybe could pick up Signet of Rage, Signet of Fury and Berserker Stance. we will also get adrenalin by weapon swapping.
- Bloody Roar gives us 2 sec taunt for people in melee range with 12sec cd (taunt is currently not dodgeable or blockable). Shield provides also a stun and we could go for Hammer or Rifle for more CC. Also Head Butt is a great option because it has a low cd is a 3 second stun and gives adrenalin.
- For enough damage i would go for full berserker armor and greatsword/hammer/rifle as secondary weapon set. You still have enough options for rune and sigils to improve that damage

In Short Terms what we will have:
Massive Condi Removes, 2 really short cd stunbreakers (less then 13sec each), good mobility, great self healing, some nice reflect on shield and sword f1 in berserker mode. Great CC options specially with that low cd. Some nice damage.

Weaknesses?!:
I don’t see any. Maybe that you dont have a ranged weapon if you dont pick up a rifle.

Sorry but I’m really concerned about the balance (I know it’s still preview/beta, but still). I read a post some days ago by Roy to the topic of revenants condition remove abilities.
Where he stated “The revenant can’t have everything” and I totaly agree that this should be this way. But I currently don’t see anything I really miss on a warrior.
It’s like rock paper scissor (okay a little more complex), but currently on the paper warrior look like he won’t be a rock, paper or scissor he will be an atom bomb!
Since there are no really weaknesses, there has to be some changes.

If skills like Cleansing Ire and Burst Master work in Berserker Mode like Stage 3 Adrenalin skills they are way to strong. Specially the combination of both. As well in combination with Dead or Alive.
Dead or Alive itself is currently in aspect of cd and healing ration way to strong. And it’s not even a grandmaster. Skills like engineers AED heal which works kinda similar heals for 12k hp with 40sec cd. So this master trait is even stronger than that heal skill?!
It should get a internal cd as well of 30-60sec.
2 Stunbreakers with the cd of 10 and 12 sec? I know revenant and necromancer also got a stunbreaker on 10sec. But the warrior gets two of them? + They already have some great stability/stunbreaker options.

A good question. Already suggested something like a general skill pool for revenants which you can pick over a skill of a legend. (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Skill-pools-for-revenant) Would be great if they add such a pool and the racial skills there.

Added that question/suggesion in that thread as well.

Another good point from VocalThought.9835 in another thread: what is about racial skills? If we had a independent general skillpool you could just add them there.

Already stated in another thread: why not split the skills:
Activating it once leaps you in and deals DMG
Activating it a 2nd time will port you back (of course onlz with a small time frame to port back)

Fumigate of the engineers elexiergun. Say ally and dont effect your self. Most skills usually say “… you and your allies” like the engineers heal turret. Or guardians shouts state “to yourself and your allies”, except the “feel my wrath” that says “nearby allies” but affects you as well.

Kinda strange. Maybe this is only stated wrong on skills and traits that were changed after the last big balance patch and new HoT ones.

okay great so facets include you.

@lonewolf:
That’s what the wiki says. But as Griffith already said it seems not the case for Facets.

It should affect you as well, at least i hope so. But usally nearby allies don’t include you.

Take a look here https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ally
An effect that emerges from the player may not consider the player be an ally of the effect unless the effect clearly states “allies and yourself”

Got some points how I would play rev in frontline of a zerg:
- I’m not sure of Shiro in a zerg build, I guess I would pick Jalis & Glint. Glint provides much support for your zerg with the buffs, also I guess the heal skill could really save your kitten sometimes
(- Swap devastation line for Herald if you go want to go for Glint)
- Pick Redeeming Protection, 3 sec prot with 5 cd. And if it works like on the engineer it will even proc when a cc is blocked by stability. So pretty strong in zerg fights specially for survial
- 2,2k armor for a Zerg Build? Guess you should more aim for 2,5-3k
- Sword within zerg fights isn’t great. Autoattack chain is singletarget, also unrelenting assault is really weak against multiple enemies. Guess I would pick up Staff, it hits more foes, provides additional healing, condi remove and a blast finisher for your zerg. As well as projectil block and surge of the mists could be also funny in a zerg.
Maybe Mace and Shield could be an option well. You wont profit from Mace, but it provides your zerk another firefield as well as blast finishers. And of course the shield provides you survival in zerg fights.

Still hoping for a response from a Dev/Roy whether that i will take a look at it or if they had a discussion about something like that before what their conclusion was

Please don’t be minions! They aready suck on necro, and we got already turrets^^

At least i would like to see that an option to chose between one of them when you equiped the elite specialization. Because when you pick it up for more condi chill dmg and more chill in a condition build where you ran staff and sceper.. you probably dont want the reaper form ;P

sebradle.7034:

Wandelaar.3746:

I don’t get why some people are opposing this idea so passionately?
How could it ever be a bad thing to have more options?

More options isn’t always a good thing. By giving more options that means you have to put work into making all options equally viable. As we see in Guild Wars 2 there is a big issue with that because a lot of options for other classes see very little use. The original Guild Wars was known as “Build” Wars because it had so many options it ended up like a trading card game. They found the balancing of that difficult and moved to the system now in Guild Wars 2. From my view the easiest thing to balance and make fun is a set kit. Kind of like we have now with the legends. It has the advantage of having skills that better interact and compliment one another. But by having a set kit you lose out on the fun of customization which I think a lot of people look for in mmos.

That was something i totaly loved in gw1 But yeah I know that this was a totally horror for them to balance. And thats why they have to find a middle way between easy to balance and customization.

Griffith.7238:

NeroBoron.7285:

@griffith you just said “Just because they use 1 or 2 Utilities different does not change how they play and will not change the outcome of a fight”
So why shouldn’t get the revenant a little bit more room in skill options? It will not hurt anyone, but it will Providence those little tweaks in the skill section that is important to some people.

Because the Revenant is the one exception to this rule. Our Utilities are stronger and we get access to more of them (at once). With that said it doesn’t change the structure of PvP. Just knowing what someones build is isn’t enough to defeat them. Even if someone counters you if your skill outweighs theirs its enough to overcome the counter.

I think we won’t came to the same point here I don’t think that’s just the case here, while you do. And I guess we will only truely know if we could test it. ^^

The utilities for me didn’t felt stronger then those of other classe, at least speaking for me. Yeah there are few skills that are strong yet, which I expect to get nerfed a little. But there are also spells that are not that strong. And still the revenant is limited by the energy so you just can’t use them the whole time.
And only to have more doesn’t mean anything the ele has attunements which are basically then 4 weapon sets which doesn’t make him that much stronger. Same goes for engineer. You can go for 5 kits + a weapon, and still have your F1-F5 skills.

//offtopic
Wasn’t rytlock a warrior before? So yes the revenant is a warrior 2.0

Energy changes can drastically change how strong the revenant is. So anet has to be careful there. I had some problems with the management too. But it was more like I couldn’t chain more than a few(1-3) skills before I ran out of energy. So you couldn’t create pressure on opponents sometimes. Its like to swap on shiro and use your elite, but than you have no more energy to set up a burst. (Don’t get me wrong the elite is strong and the energy costs has to be high)

But i don’t feel the flaw sometimes. I guess this could be fixed by not resetting energy after legend swap to 50 when you were above 50 before. Also some skills/traits for temporary better energy regeneration or instat gain of some energy would fit in well. It is like with the thief’s initiative, the player has to use it wisely.

As said if there will be changes they have to be done really really carefully

@griffith you just said “Just because they use 1 or 2 Utilities different does not change how they play and will not change the outcome of a fight”
So why shouldn’t get the revenant a little bit more room in skill options? It will not hurt anyone, but it will Providence those little tweaks in the skill section that is important to some people.

Mallyx on a power build? You would only use the heal skill and pain absorption.
You wouldn’t have much benefit from the other both utilities. They have a high energy consume, and you would only benefit from the displacement in certain situations as well as the boon rip. And the elite in a power build ist completely useless.
Anyway I would never pick mallyx in a power build. (In a hybrid I would pick him.for sure) But hey that’s fine for me. There are still enough other legends to pick from.
And each of these combinations will feel completely different and that’s good.

f you picked on of these combination of legend and weapons, you a forced in all skills. Everyone with this combinations has the same skills. It feels like hey we bring you a new playable race but they will all look the same because you have only 1 face 1 hair 1 size and so on. But hey don’t be sad you can still chose your class and wear different armor.

you don’t have a single change option to make some lttile changes in skills when you have chose for example glint and jalis. While as an cantrip ele you still have the option to pick up a non cantrip skill.

I want the possibility of more build variety by these small changes to 1 or 2 skills of your legend. I totally agree that the revenant hast enough build variety in the greater changes section. But I miss the personal adjustments really bad

Yep, as I said “This may change a little with the last announced changes.”

Yeah sure that skill s nice and I would pick bit with glint stance. But there would be another elite spec mechanic who knows what they bring and u would prefer it over the perma swiftness facet in fight so you just cab swap them in and out
Anyway these are just some ideas in our minds ;P

Griffith.7238:

You guys can say that the Rev lacks the same amount of customization as other classes ,but its equally traded for more versatility in combat. I don’t see any other classes getting 2 heal skills , 6 utilities , and 2 elites accessible in combat.

It seems no one understands the concept of a trade-off anymore. You guys will whine so much they will give you extra utilities even though they aren’t needed then will start asking for access to 3 Legends at once. It’s clear you guys just want Revs to be the be all end all of all the classes.

It’s designed this way, in beginning anet ripped revenants from a second weapon set as trade of. But since they noticed the revenant doesn’t feel right with it and was to weak they added the 2nd weapon set.

Also if you check my last post you may see that revenants both heal skills together as strong as other classes heal. At least in heal:CD ratio. Yes it is far from final and done yet and i guess there will be some tweaks as well.

And I made a lot of tests with guildies in the last beta weekend, and everyone said that he is way to weak has way to less survival and so on. With other words far away from op. This may change a little with the last announced changes.

But still I don’t believe giving a small room for customization will drastically boost the revenant and make him completely op.
The ability that a mesmers can swap veil for a portal also doesn’t make him op, does it? I don’t think so.

Rym.1469:

Wandelaar.3746:

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I fully agree with your point, you change your utilities around a lot depending on the situation. And you’ll be changing all your utilities, or none at all if you need that stability from jalis, for example. The best possible solution, although it would be tons of work for arenanet and they are probably busy working on other specialisations and HoT, would be to add one additional skill tied to each legend, to get 4 options. Which would bring us to 16 (20 if specialised) utility skill options instead of 12 (other classes have 20 options(24 if specialised)).

One note though: It seems unlikely they were planning to add skills to the legends, as indicated by the Glint reveal. They had 6 facets to choose from, and because they were only planning on making 5 skills, they decided to use the 6th facet to make a unique profession mechanic. This would make it really tricky for them to add another Glint skill, as they’re out of facets now.

I would say making up one more Facet name isn’t that hard and I am sure some of the lore hounds would come up with fitting one in just a minute or two even considering adding a bit to the lore. Maybe something with Crystals, considering whole Dragon’s Lair, Desert etc.

Certainly worth it. Considering both Mallyx and Shiro have some names for one more utility for each of them left in their old skill sets. And other two – Jalis and Ventari – don’t have many canon names for skills, so you can do whatever you want with them.

We seem to agree on the “just one more utility per legend”. Now it’s just Roy left….

Haha yeah really hope that anet takes at least a deeper look in this.
but just take a look at Soothing Stone for example which heals only for 4,5k with a 30 second cooldown. The ratio just didn’t fit (at least not compared to other heal skills). So you really are in need of the 2nd heal skill.

Yes I know Soothing Stone removes 3 Condi’s as well. But take a look at healing turret5k heal for you ,2.5k heal for allies, regeneration water field 2 conditions removed. 15sec CD if not overcharged.
Or consume conditions which has as well 30 sec CD but heals for 5,2k removed all condition and heals for each removed condition 700hp so with 4 conditions you get 8k heal and all conditions removed.
(Just to show up that you are really in need of both heals)
Yes currently the heal of mallyx could be a bit strong with many conditions.

Wandelaar.3746:

Kicker.8203:

There are lots of threads about this issue but my opinion is they should at least add 1 more utility to each hero if not 2. If they add 1 good one it would be good for release

That’s what I was thinking too, but I’ve run into a slight issue.
It seems unlikely they were planning to add skills to the legends, as indicated by the Glint reveal. They had 6 facets to choose from, and because they were only planning on making 5 skills, they decided to use the 6th facet to make a unique profession mechanic. This would make it really tricky for them to add another Glint skill, as they’re out of facets now.

This isn’t this big of a deal, but it might make it really hard to design a new skill for Glint.

It is still beta they could just make this proffesion mechanic a glint stance skill lol

Griffith.7238:

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

I agree that other classes do function this way and most people look at it as them having versatility ,but I think that’s not really the case. Every class in this game has an over abundance of crappy Utilities. The Revenant on the other hand has fewer Utility options ,but they are much more well rounded. People think that Revs need the same options as other classes ,but I don’t see that as the case. Rev’s have better Utilities by far then the other classes and if the other classes had better Utilities they wouldn’t need to swap them out an an encounter to encounter basis. Most classes get 1 maybe 2 Elites in which they swap in an out. The Guardian only had 1 up until the removed Tomes. The Rev on the other hand has 5 good Elites every single one is good.The same can be said for Heal skills. 1-2 decent ones for every other class. The Rev has 5 good ones. So I do believe that if the Rev had that level of customization it would put them above the other classes and I also believe its not needed because the kit we have already is better then what other classes are getting.

I agree that every other class only has any smaller pool of really good skills and I am not happy about that as well. For example on the ele you usually pick the signet or aether heal because they are the most effective ones. Still in pve sometimes pick the arcane skill for an extra blast.
But on revenant I would only pick up thebherald heal in wvw zerg fights. Because in other situation it wouldn’t be that effective. So if lick up the herald in another situation to get for example. The might and protection stacks in fractals. You give uo a kit if your selfheal. And so you run around with a heal skill you are not happy with. And probably you have other skills you are not happy with. So a revenant is forced to pick up spells he doesn’t like in exchange to get access to skills he like. Yes they have more utilities skills equipped than others. But still I prefer to have an option there when it comes to such important skill options like your heal skill. And so on another class you activelly could chose those important skills that fit you the best. While in revenant you get forced to use skills you don’t want to just to get access to those you really want, and that can break a build easily.

Even one more heal skill and one more utility could nearly fix this.. For example when you pick up a legend for his currently utikitiz skills but the heal skill doesn’t fit you can change it. If you pick a elite where 2 utilities currently don’t fit you could at least swap out one.

And also if all skills are equally good. Swapping out a good skill for a good skill shouldn’t change the balance or?

radioAspen.6829:

Mostly a pve perspective, but.

I think something that people are overlooking in this thread is that the m-word doesn’t dictate a single, static build that is optimal for every single situation, rather it dictates the build that is optimal for that specific situation, and as such it’s dynamic. Even if there are three obvious “meta” utility choices for this piece of content, only two of them may be “meta” for another with a new skill taking up the third slot, etc. If you look at actual build or dungeon guides, they give you all kinds of situational heal, utility, and even trait changes to make for specific reasons.

Furthermore, we can make informed decisions based on other factors. If I’m pugging with my PS warr, I may take more sustain or Fury generation than I otherwise would with an experienced party where I know other people are going to support me.

Revenant currently lacks this kind of finesse. You’re essentially choosing your entire kit on the basis of the one skill you may need. This gives Revenant fewer ways to approach any content, and adding options puts them on par with other classes, not above them.

Yep that’s what I currently see and felt.

sebradle.7034:

NeroBoron.7285:

sebradle.7034:

But revenant’s utilities are all generally stronger then other profession utilities and on top of that they have no cool downs. So if use your energy right you should always have what you need available. Just the fact that you can spam revenant utilities means to me there should be some trade offs.

Stronger? The skills itself are as strong as other utilities. That there is no cooldown on some skills or such a low cooldown that you can basically spam it. Is another problem. I already posted somewhere that they really have to add a CD to Pain Absobation because you can get nearly perma resistance. That is a problem for some other skills as well and should be fixed. (Even if not a thief can also spam his skills, but I agree that should not be the case)

I said generally stronger. I think this is true because Revenant has more viable utilities then any other profession. Because it is a newer class (more gameplay to draw from when designing them) and the utilities have been packaged together to work with one another.

Also I was responding to someone who is comparing revenant utilites to having illusion of life forced onto your bar. I think it is beyond ridiculous to compare Revenant utilities to something so highly situational. So please give me a the revenant utilities that are so situational that you don’t see yourself using them because they all seem to be of use to me.

Also you cant ignore the no cooldown thing because that is a huge trade off for customization. If you were allowed to choose exactly what you need and have it on no cooldown seems to me like it would make gameplay pretty easy.

I feel that yes the Revenant is lacking in customization and that makes it feel more boring. But I do not look at any of the Legends or their utilities and think oh wow that is just kitten I am never going to use that.

Yeah okay in general I would agree that the revenant has more useful skills than other classes. And I also want to see a fair CD on every skill. For me the option of customization is a. Big deal, and this us also something I’ve heard from friends and guildies.

And yes the illusion of life example isn’t the best, but I think it gets the point of having a useless skill which you would like to change. For example in a pve dungeon run you uAndunyielding anguish.. Afterwards your team mates gonna kill you for porting away the stacked mobs. So you basically have a skill there that you won’t use. Ever. (At least in that scenario)

Also as I stated before the statement that other classes have 400000 build varieties sounds great but everyone knows you only have way less viable and useful builds. There where times where I had 8 armors for different engineer builds. And you still could tweak every build of these by changing one or two skills.
On the revenant changing a legend meens a totally other play style where you probably also need another armor for., while I just want to change a little piece of it.

Before you ask: the 8 engineer builds:
- Melee Rabid Condition Perplexity Engineer
- Undead Dire Condition Engineer
- Bomb Heal Engineer
- Celestial Rifle Engineer
- Hoelbrak Knight Power Rifle
- Berserker Static Discharge
- Melandru Zerg Engineer
- Rune of the Defender Turret Reflect Engineer

8 different Sets, 8 different build. And all of they fitted their role good. So basically it is like the revenants 10 legend combinations. And still you could adjust them a little bit. For example swap a skill for a revealing skill when you see a thief engaging you or swap in elexier s for toolkit to get through somewhere before a zerg fight. Or swap in grenades for bombs to have better range options.

The point should be clear.

And yes there are some things that are too strong on revenant and they should get balanced.

But please everyone arguing by saying “giving the revenant access to x, will make him op, because he already got y”, just doesn’t fit in a discussion. Specially not when we all know that y has to be and will be nerfed.
Don’t get me wrong post your thoughts on it, but please bring some good arguments and examples. and also keep in mind it is a beta, there is a lot of stuff that can change.

sebradle.7034:

But revenant’s utilities are all generally stronger then other profession utilities and on top of that they have no cool downs. So if use your energy right you should always have what you need available. Just the fact that you can spam revenant utilities means to me there should be some trade offs.

Stronger? The skills itself are as strong as other utilities. That there is no cooldown on some skills or such a low cooldown that you can basically spam it. Is another problem. I already posted somewhere that they really have to add a CD to Pain Absobation because you can get nearly perma resistance. That is a problem for some other skills as well and should be fixed. (Even if not a thief can also spam his skills, but I agree that should not be the case)

Not sure if one utility is enough, but would be better than none. Still same problem goes for heal skill… I really hate those stupid skills that only heal you when the opponent is stupid and keeps hitting you^^

BTW I forget to nation that you really have to add a CD on Pain Absorption, you can go for nearly pertma resistance. (Okay you can’t spent energy on something else then, but still perma resistance!)