Guild Wars 2

infantrydiv.1620:

Sarision.6347:

^Same here.

Otherwise go with this:

Marks: LB + SB
Skirmish: Sword + GS
WS: Everything else

Shortbow makes no sense with the Opening Strike theme of Marksmanship

It makes so much not-sense I am ABSOLUTELY planning to try Marksmanship + Skirmishing to give my shortbow-weilding Ranger opening strikes along with the shortbow grand master trait . I am delighted to see those effects in different trees where I can combine them.

Nokaru.7831:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I’m actually rather disappointed to learn that the fall damage traits are all still there.

No kidding. Revival and Rally traits also take up space.

And are eagerly used by people in several types of gameplay.

That you don’t know what fall damage traits are for doesn’t mean they don’t have a place.

bigbobpataki.4796:

So we all happy now? Got a preview of every trait in HoT outside of elites, and the weekly elite specialization preview has begun.

Yes. Including the information we got in the stream I have enough to rough out the new spec’s for all my characters, identify and report issues where any build-concepts I enjoy got tossed out with the bathwater, and generally scheme on how I want to set up gear with trait lines losing their stat contribution.

A good week indeed from my perspective. If they reveal the Guardian trait line next week it’ll be almost too much fun at once. But they’ll get to it at some point, so I’m content even on that front.

Who is/are the “Guild Wars 2 Forum Specialist – Profession Balance” folk? That’s a position I’d be interested in.

I’m also curious…

• may not be employed by ArenaNet within 12 months of acting as a Guild Wars 2 Forum Specialist

…is intended to indicate forum specialist can’t be ex-employees, forum specialist will categorically not be considered as hiring candidates, or both?

Crystal ball says “Dang unlikely.”

We saw grandfathering of all unlocked abilities to characters who were made before the changes last time they re-wrote the trait system from the ground up. Likely the same courtesy will be extended again.

It’s not like this is the first time this has happened in GW2.

Or put another way you (the player) decided your family comes from a region where that skin tone is uncommon. Your sister matches the choice you made. You don’t. IF anyone is adopted, odds are it’s you.

The new WvW borderlands maps are specifically designed to make falling damage reduction traits a life or death decision.

Many profession’s revive traits are forgettable, but I find both the thief and guardian versions to be game-changers… and both of them got better.

On the topic of falling damage traits the thief one needs to be a model for the future. There are some obvious generic triggers like “on falling or using a healing skill” or “on falling or using an elite skill” that could fill gaps for classes that don’t have other thematic 30-second-ish clocks built into the class already.

It already exists (Giver’s). Its just inexplicably terrible.

Maugetarr.6823:

Except you forgot we get a 6/6/6 distribution now.

If you read my post-HoT version notes I absolutely did not forget. There are additional minor and grandmaster traits listed for the two lines that went from 4 to max points.

Why not 60606?

Because Assassins Reward is absolutely key to the build . Its a thief bunker. It doesn’t sit in stealth. It holds points against 2-3 people for ages, typically long enough for your team to claim the rest of the board or just keep a point from being flipped ’til a roamer arrives.

I agree you could go either way on the Trickery Grandmaster trait — for some jobs the CC will be better, for others the heap of confusion backed by a good condition damage stat.

ExtraCosmic.9082:

I hardly know where to begin.

You’re going to need to begin by writing up some of the the builds you are losing. Either as text or provide a link to the build done on a good spec-builder page.

This is absolutely key – they have to see the build you have now.

Then if you’re really intent on making a change you’ll want to try to present a short explanation of what you were doing with it, the theme of the build, or why it was fun.

Then you’ll need to show that it’s no longer possible under the new system – things like key traits no longer exist or combinations of effects can no longer be achieved because you can’t go outside the 3-trait lines limit or you need more than 3 adept traits or master level traits.

Persuading game designers is a specialized skill set. It’s not going to be easy for a lot of people. But they’ve asked, so hopefully they are actively listening .

I LOVE running into people in PvP who believe there is only one right build for a profession.

If the new Necromancer elite specialization gets an elite skill that summons six Flesh golems temporarily I’ll be fairly certain Trehearne is indeed a follower of the new path .

It seems you will need to do some of the skill challenges. Not hearts, not vistas, not PoIs, not total map completion.

Knighthonor.4061:

Can somebody clearly explain how they work?

I am confused right now and trying to find some good answers and info.

I’m not sure how far back towards the basics we need to go, but basically they’ve renamed the existing trait lines “specializations”.

Now when you’re 80th level instead of having 14 points to distribute among the 5 lines you will choose 3 of the five and they all are automatically maxed out (as if you had spent 6 points in that line under the current system).

Instead of having 6 adept traits, 6 master traits, and 3 grand master traits there will be 3 at each tier. You also will no longer be able to put lower tier traits in a higher tier slot — you will always have 1 adept, 1 master, and 1 grandmaster trait for your specialization.

A lot of the missing traits have been folded into other traits to make stronger/more desirable options. Some effects have been moved to other lines. Some have been moved down in tier. The goal being to preserve styles while reducing the number of bad/ineffective combinations.

What we’ve being thinking of as sub-classes/specializations up to this point is now called “Elite Specializations”. Each class will have 1 at launch and its another specialization that can only be put in the third slot, unlocks a new weapon, a new heal, a new elite, and 4 new utility skills. The Revenant elite specialization unlocks only 3 utilities because of the way legends are structured.

Hope this helps.

I’m planning to compare complete builds to show why losing a trait is a problem. Best place is probably the HoT board or the specific profession sub-forum.

Josh Davis.6015:

Congrats fellow engineers. ^^

Hallelujah!!

I think its possible to see diversity being slaughtered while the number of desiriable traits increases.

Things like going back and properly tagging elite skills to be part of existing utility lines like tricks or shouts is independent of cutting the number of adept and master traits in half and locking the tiers.

There looks to be significant net improvement (and I’m glad), but don’t think there weren’t some losses along the way.

Fortunately we’ve been invited to identify the specific loses that bug us. If you’re losing a build you enjoy, its time to outline how that build works and what about the new system is crippling it. They gave us (most) of the traits. We’re not working in a vacuum anymore .

Since they specifically asked us to check if some of our favorite builds are no longer possible, I’m gonna do some character by character studies.

So far my thief-tank built on an outdated meta build seems to be in good shape other than losing a situational source of Regeneration.

Just looking at the consequences of today’s Trait revelations for the bunker-yThief build I enjoy .

Super Unicorn
Gear: Settler’s (TOUGHNESS + healing power/condition damage)
Weapons: Dagger/Dagger & Pistol/Pistol

Shadow Arts 4
Acrobatics 6
Trickery 4

Heal: Signet of Malice
Utilities: Signet of Shadows, Caltrops (trick), Roll for Initiative (trick)
Elite Skill: Dagger Storm

Minor Traits
Last Refuge: Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches a certain threshold.
Meld with Shadows: Stealth skills last longer.
Expeditious Dodger: Gain swiftness upon dodging.
Feline Grace: Dodging returns some of the endurance used.
Fluid Strikes: Damage is increased when endurance is not full.
Kleptomaniac: Stealing gives you initiative.
Preparedness: Increases maximum initiative by 3.

Major Traits
Slowed Pulse: Grant regeneration if you have two or more stacks of bleeding.
Hidden Thief: Stealing grants you stealth.
Power of Inertia: Gain might whenever you dodge.
Pain Response: Gain regeneration and remove conditions when struck while your health is below the threshold.
Assassin’s Reward: Heal yourself whenever you use a skill that uses initiative. Heal yourself for each point of initiative spent.
Uncatchable: Leave behind Caltrops when you dodge.
Trickster: Reduces recharge on tricks.

HoT Traits
Shadow Arts, Acrobatics, Trickery

Heal: Signet of Malice
Utilities: Signet of Shadows, Caltrops (trick), Roll for Initiative (trick)
Elite Skill: Dagger Storm (now a trick – hell yeah!)

Minor Traits
Last Refuge: Use Blinding Powder (trick) when your health reaches a certain threshold.
Meld with Shadows: Stealth skills last longer.
Resilience of Shadows: Stealth provides 50% damage reduction.
Expeditious Dodger: Gain swiftness upon dodging.
Feline Grace: Gain vigor on successful evade.
Endless Stamina: Vigor increases endurance recovery an additional 20%
Fluid Strikes: Damage is increased when endurance is not full.
Kleptomaniac: Stealing gives you initiative.
Preparedness: Increases maximum initiative by 3.
Lead Attacks: Increased damage per initiative. Reduce Steal cooldown (15%).

Major Traits
Merciful Ambush: Stealth you and target when reviving. Revive 10% faster.
Descent of Shadows: Stealing/Falling triggers blinding powder (grants you stealth/blinds others). Benefits from Trickery cooldown reduction.
Cloaked in Shadow: Gaining Stealth Blinds nearby foes.
Pain Response: Gain regeneration and remove conditions when struck while your health is below the threshold. Removes Bleed, Burning, and Poison. (Moved to adept tier)
Hard to Catch: Breaks stun and refills endurance when CC’d. 30 second cooldown.
Assassin’s Reward: Heal yourself whenever you use a skill that uses initiative. Heal yourself for each point of initiative spent.
Uncatchable: Leave behind Caltrops when you dodge.
Trickster: Reduces recharge on tricks. Tricks remove 1 condition.
Slight of Hand: Stealing Dazes 1 second. Reduce Stealing cooldown (20%)

Comments/Requests
Shadow Arts line extensively rebuilt. Overall gains and good interaction with Trickery cooldown reduction, but would like to see self-regeneration of Slowed Pulse available in some form. Possibly as part of Shadow’s Embrace for builds like this that don’t spend a lot of time in stealth.

Acrobatics line Loses Power of Inertia (no great loss) and gains Hard to Catch. Overall increase in bunker-ness.

Trickery line’s Trickster now gives reduced cooldown to Dagger Storm. Rock-on!

Synergy between Merciful Ambush and Resilience of Shadows is gonna make ninja-nurse very powerful. Get a cup to catch all the tears, for they will be plentiful and sweet.

MaXi.3642:

Nike.2631:

So, the use of hexagons vs. squares is interesting.

Looks like the hexagons are (fixed) minor traits and the squares are the (selectable) major traits.

What’s super interesting is there are more than 3 squares between each hexagon. Might mean there are more than 3 choices despite the other image we’ve seeon OR it may be passive bonuses unlocked along the way – particularly as there are FIVE squares after the last hexagon…

Edit: nope looked at it more closely – 3 traits and a 4th box that looks like unique weapons skin, armor skin and I dunno what the two extra boxes are in the grand master tier.

if you have read the blog posts properly, they said they removed some traits and added them to the skill type unlock part, so when you unlock it with hero points, the functionality will become a default without a need for spending a trait on it… as an example, Necromancers wells will be ground targeted all the time when you unlock it

Which has exactly nothing to do with what I said.

Rauderi.8706:

Well, yes, we are, statistically, getting fewer permutations. (I refuse to call them “options” based on how they’re used now.) :P And 390k combinations per class is still plenty to explore.

Excellent use of the word ‘permutations’ .

It does kinda suck that we’re losing lower trait selections in higher slots, but before panic, let’s see what they do with the trait combinations.

Having seen all the traits/trait lines now I’m seeing the exact problems I expected – namely that you get locked into a lot of unrelated stuff just because you wanted to take a specific utility-type “cooldown trait” or buff a particular weapon. But there’s also some good re-positioning of effects to more appropriate lines and a lot of trash traits are being bundled into traits that were merely sub-par to make a package that’s got some potential to be interesting.

We also are finally seeing why the three Revenant lines that we revealed only had 9 traits each and why those traits were all decidedly on the butch side – they fit into the new paradigm a lot more equitably.

Apparently because I like support builds like Battle Presence Guardian (and a bunker’ish super unicorn thief) most of my builds are being improved.

Could we maybe call it “numbers aren’t final”?

Trait rework-merges look good at first blush. I’ve got some theory crafting to do as they’ve requested. They’ve specifically asked if we have playstyles/builds lost in the conversion. I need to figure out how some of my preferred ‘odd-ball’ builds line up with the new paradigm and what can be done to get the last missing pieces into places that will work with the 3-lines system.

Gotta say I specifically like Battle presence moving to Virtues. That’s some one stop shopping for me.

Should be an interesting week .

I don’t have a judgment to make yet. Their goals in the mixing/combining/balancing are noble. The beta test will be intriguing.

And yeah, my guild left SWtoR over one of the big rounds of class changes – wasn’t the main complain but it was the straw that broke the bantha’s back.

Watching the stream on another screen – Welcome to GW3.

This is a MASSIVE do-over. Dumbed down in the extreme… but hopefully the gameplay will remain fun.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

I really don’t understand why even folks who’re normally level-headed and forward-thinking like Nike are so opposed to this system.

Being concerned about the annihilation of choice is quite separate from my hope that there are more competitively valuable traits. Even the Devs in interviews have acknowledged that fewer choices means they have less room for error. And while I respect their accomplishments, fact is their track record for balancing traits is not great and they are giving us very little room to dodge the bad ones that will work their way into the roster.

spoj.9672:

This particular Nike was the one suggesting crafting in fractals. Not sure that description really ever fit him. :>

D’aawww. You remembered. You might also remember that the Elite specializations we’re seeing now are pretty much exactly how I suggested sub-classes be done (swap-in Trait Line), up to and including a weapons skin being part of the package. You may not like how I design, but the people whose opinion matters do pay some attention when I’m pitching ideas .

Ragnarox.9601:

They are taking away guardians virtues.-..nice…kill us more and give us warhorn and 6x shouts. R.I.P. Longbow.

Umm.. just NO.

The “gains 6 shout specialization” is almost certainly NOT going to be a class that already has shouts.

And “taking away virtues” and “Changing the active effect of virtues” are UNRELATED STATEMENTS.

Well… now we know why Revenants only had 9 traits in each line and were limited to three trait lines during the beta event. That was in fact ALL of their traits for each of those lines.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_revenant_traits

But since those instant 80s won’t have any extra Hero Points to actually unlock their trait lines and utility skill lines you may end up greatly benefiting from burning the tomes about 10 at a time, then doing a few skill challenges (renamed hero challenges) to access a few more lines before burning the next 10 tomes.

It makes going to 80 without wasting points more like 3 hours rather than 20 seconds.

An interesting trade off.

Given that gear is now an even larger contributor to you stat point totals, Ascended gear is going to be more important than ever.

CureForLiving.5360:

My opinion as well. For all the complaining about less diversity, the thing is most of that diversity of pointless non-viable builds. People really love ideas more than practicalities it seems

People who love ideas generally do the discovering for the people who assume there’s no reason to explore.

So? Diversity for no reason other than to have diversity is silly. Show me how this will practically impact players.

Show me how many meta builds were discovered launch day. Some things are obvious. Other combinations — while amazingly powerful in practice — are not…

phys.7689:

Nike.2631:

Question: Why do I have to be a healer just because I want my Ele to be good with cantrips? Cantrips have nothing to do with heals, but trying to get their reduced cooldown trait means I have to take a healing-oriented adept trait, because even with three choices there’s no variety. Look at the three Water Magic Adept traits: Heal, heal, and oh, more heals.

Soothing Mist: You and nearby allies regenerate health while you are attuned to water.
Healing Ripple: Heal nearby allies when attuning to water.
Aquatic Benevolence: Healing done to allies is increased. (25%)

those are non selectable.
the selectable adepts are different.

Ah. Thanks . That’s simultaneously better and worse. I’m still stuck with a buttload of healing effects just because I wanted cantrips-cooldown, but there is some variety in the adept and grandmaster tier.

I’ll refine the question.

Question: Why do I have to be a healer just because I want my Ele to be good with cantrips? Cantrips have nothing to do with heals, but trying to get their reduced cooldown trait means I get saddled with all healing-oriented minor traits. Look at the three Water Magic minor traits: Heal, heal, and oh, more heals.

Soothing Mist: You and nearby allies regenerate health while you are attuned to water.
Healing Ripple: Heal nearby allies when attuning to water.
Aquatic Benevolence: Healing done to allies is increased. (25%)

And another ranger thread meanders into the bushes (and likely dies there) over mis-use of the profession’s name.

I think they’ll avoid giving Eles weapons that they can summon for as long as possible simply so that I can’t run around in the (theoretical) specialization that can wield greatswords with a Volcanus skin equipped making it impossible to tell if I have the summoned firesword out or just a weapon skin…

RabbitUp.8294:

I use viable for builds that work. Playing 3/3/3/3/2 is not about being meta or not, competitive or not, it’s making a build that willing gimps yourself, a build that doesn’t work.

Good builds hide in strange places. I had probably the first character in Champions Online that abused the snot out of Recovery as a main stat to the point I could fire fully charged Force Cascades from a standing start with no energy builder. It became a meta build later, but first it had to be found.

This system is designed to eliminate those corners before they can even be explored. Which makes it simpler to manage, and less prone to leading people into the bushes, but is also going to be fully explored and codified very, very fast.

Similarly, the gear system allows you to go naked, or not wear certain pieces of armor. Does this offer choice? Is there a purpose in willingly choosing to do otherwise of bragging rights?

On the gear front, the thing that seems obvious that no one has mentioned yet is if more points are assigned to gear and Exotic/Ascended maintain the 100%/105% relationship they have now, the absolute numerical divide between the two is going to grow. Time to finish ‘pinking out’ my gear .

RabbitUp.8294:

If you only count the # of viable builds, though, then quantity can decrease that.

It’s illusion of choice vs real choice.

It hurts my soul the way people throw around the word “viable” where the term that would have meaning is “competitive”. It gets (deliberately) misused because viable is a binary term (alive/dead) used to create a false dichotomy based on a floating, arbitrary cut off when the reality is builds populate a spectrum of performance. Viable gets used in the same way as saying “every child that won’t be in the Olympics will just fall down dead at the age of 5 because they just aren’t viable.” It’s not necessary for all builds to by hyper-competitive to add value to the system as a whole. And its even more important to have some flexibility in a game that has multiple modes with very different demands.

Here are your choices. We have 10 flavors of ranger to choose from:

Marksmanship/Skirmishing/Wilderness Survival
Marksmanship/Skirmishing/Nature Magic
Marksmanship/Skirmishing/Beastmastery
Marksmanship/Wilderness Survival/Nature Magic
Marksmanship/Wilderness Survival/Beastmastery
Marksmanship/Nature Magic/Beastmastery
Skirmishing/Wilderness Survival/Nature Magic
Skirmishing/Wilderness Survival/Beastmastery
Skirmishing/Nature Magic/Beastmastery
Wilderness Survival/Nature Magic/Beastmastery

What’s closest to your current build and assuming you must take an adept, master, and grand master trait in each line what combos are you eyeing?

(Yes, we’ll know more after the stream tomorrow. This is just working with the knowns.)

Hopefully I can make my Ele into a “Firestorm Lord” by picking Tempest/Arcane/Fire Magic for my three lines… I’m betting “tempest” is more an AoE focus that can work with any attunement than a second Air path.

So, the use of hexagons vs. squares is interesting.

Looks like the hexagons are (fixed) minor traits and the squares are the (selectable) major traits.

What’s super interesting is there are more than 3 squares between each hexagon. Might mean there are more than 3 choices despite the other image we’ve seeon OR it may be passive bonuses unlocked along the way – particularly as there are FIVE squares after the last hexagon…

Edit: nope looked at it more closely – 3 traits and a 4th box that looks like unique weapons skin, armor skin and I dunno what the two extra boxes are in the grand master tier.

phys.7689:

taking out traits will not increase competitive builds, if competitive builds increase, it will be because they make better traits, not because of the amount of traits.

Understood. They are making both types of changes at the same time. The outcome of one (the annihilation of diversity) is a given. There NO OTHER OUTCOME for what they’re doing.

But the changes to traits happening at the same time may or may not create the groundwork for more competitive builds. I am skeptical, but the possibility at least exists.

I’m still working on a few small requests tweaks that might fit into the new paradigm. Hopefully I’ll be able to ask about them in tomorrow’s show.

cocowoushi.7150:

Phys you completely missed what I’m saying. They could include a new trait or adjust an existing one that does THE SAME THING as spreading yourself out over 4-5 lines. I understand the change is cause for concern but our information is minimal and the amount of doomsday Sayers right now is unbelievable.

Well, we’ll find out if your optimism is warranted tomorrow.

Strill.2591:

Nike.2631:

We get to the total POLAR OPPOSITE of “diversity” – there are only 10 combination of 3 trait lines and everyone in a profession will be one of those 10. The. End. (the specialization with be another mix of 10 clusters of 3 lines).

Each of those lines will only 27 ways of traiting, down from 418.

We get simplicity. We get hammered towards the middle in terms of performance. We do NOT get diversity.

Now if you take the current system and toss out all the useless crap, then do your calculations again, you’ll find that this change is actually improving diversity.

It may increase the number of competitive builds. Maybe.

It will NEVER improve diversity. Because the word actually has a meaning.

I just want to say that while I have concerns about the annihilation of 99% of our diversity, THIS IS A GOOD AND COGENT POST:

Eolirin.1830:

Being able to adjust a build does jack all when the combinatorial space you need to navigate is full of trap builds that’ll suck and there’s no way to tell whether your new choices are good or bad except to die a lot, and then end up with yet another trap build on the next go round. Smaller decision trees are better at signaling and are far easier to navigate.

Also, keep in mind that the trait merging is effectively reducing the number of major traits you need vs what we currently have, that we’re getting two more major traits, some things that are currently traits are being turned into general skill features, that there’s a decoupling of stats from trait lines, and there’s a general rebalance to everything, including moving some major traits to minor traits. It changes pretty much everything about assumptions you work under in the current system, and a number of those changes should make it easier to mix and match weird things that you currently can’t.

So even with these changes there is plenty of room for non-optimal fun builds in the new system. There’s just much less space for completely useless and broken builds. The delta between best and worst comes down a lot and each trait line’s “purpose” is tightened up and more clearly signaled. The end result of all of this, especially over time as balance is easier to do with the simpler system, should result in more viable builds, not fewer.

And please, don’t try to apply the way current builds are set up to the new system as if you can just drop in what you currently do to the new system; so much is changing that you just can’t do that. What you need to look at, and you won’t be able to until we get our hands on it, is what you can actually create with the new system, and not what you could create if you had the new system and exactly the same traits we do currently. Some builds will definitely be gone, but new builds will be created, and others will be changed in big or small ways.

That the total number of combinations of traits has gone from a stupidly huge number to another much smaller but still stupidly huge number, or that the number of lines you can pick has gone from 5 to 3, or that you can’t put an adept trait into a master trait slot doesn’t matter in the end. What matters is if the underlying playstyles people are using are still adequately represented and whether more viable options open up for each profession than currently exist. We can’t really know that yet, but given what’s been shown of the Water line, there’s not a ton of reason to be panicking about it right now.

And I agree completely – the math doesn’t lie about the degree to which we are losing flexibility, but it’s not cause to panic. I would have liked to see the current system improved upon, rather than what amounts to scrapping it entirely and keeping most of the bits we’re fond of. But it can work out.

I’m looking forward to more info tomorrow. And I’m formulating some small suggestions that might improve on the new framework rather than clinging to the old one.

I’ve been writing and publishing them for nearly two decades. Which is why the specifics of my argument are the math. The other aspects can be done well or poorly and we don’t know enough to say yet.

This is dumbing down. Grossly so in my opinion. It can pay off. It can turn out well. I hope it will. Unlike, say, the last round of dumbing down GW2 had to endure in the form of the NPE.

Sorry, but there IS cause for concern. Concerns I spelled out almost verbatim over a year ago in the horizontal progression CDI along with the proposal that became the blueprint for Specializations. I’ve been thinking about this on and off for 16 months, not just the last 24 hours. I look forward to learning more tomorrow.

Teon.5168:

I am excited, too, about the new specialization system that is incoming. It will allow for more unique characters, imo.

Why do people keep saying that??!?

‘Unique’ is the one thing we absolutely know the changes are going to stamp out.

If you have a line, you have it at 6. No options. No variations. You have exactly 1 adept, 1 master, and 1 grand master trait. Without fail or exception. 27 choices. Ever.

ronpierce.2760:

In addition, out of those MASSIVE amounts of “set ups” we already manage to narrow it down to 1-2 with a couple slight variations. If the new set up is handled properly, it will allow more personal preference choices, and the most exciting part about locked adept/master tiers is that it forces people to make harder decisions.

Ah. yes, well, serving the groupthink over all other player types is one goal they are accomplishing in spades.

The people who think there’s only 1-2 way to have fun with a class will still think that after this change – they gain or lose nothing. It’s the other players that are getting their options maimed.