Guild Wars 2

It’s because people want to do things fast. This is why 4 War 1 Mes Full Berserker is a thing. Maximum Damage Output to speed up their farming process. The idea that we do no damage resounds from everyone, even ourselves. By design, everything we do is, at most, second best. However, while we don’t make things faster, we sure do make them easier. I recently moved to Crystal Desert.

My old server (Sorrow’s Furnace) was absolutely awful at WvW but made up for it with pretty good PvE management. Crystal Desert was pretty much the opposite. We actually do pretty well in WvW. However, at any given time, 4 out of 5 of the statues in Orr are active. And whenever I’m working to capture something, Temple of Dwayna for instance, it’s 100% noticeable when I am the only Engineer doing support. Whenever I’m not on Elixir Gun constantly applying weakness, the rate of people being downed and defeated skyrockets. Toss Elixir R is the greatest instrument in revival ever. I picked up at least five people with that at Dwayna in a single throw.

Yeah, I had a typo in there. I meant to say that the Masters are each good for specific builds. Which, I have no problem with. I use Power Wrench now. And I’ve heard of players using the Trait that tosses Med Kit skills so that they can self cleanse when they are immobilized. Crit chance bros are still patiently waiting for scope to work. But the grandmaster traits never really feel worth it to me. Not at the level they currently are. You could have moved both of those down to Adept, and replaced it with the old KR and Static Discharge. Those two skills are not only powerful, but trait defining. Players who take those traits actively utilize them! Adrenal implant is nice, but as you said, does not stack with Vigor, which is easily obtainable with 10p in Elixirs (better not rely on that either…) Armor Mods… I’m not a big fan of retal, but I’m sure it gets some damage in if you’re built for it. But 5s of retal or 7.5 endurance per second doesnt get me excited as much as “Remove condition and heal, cripple and bleed, spam explosions, or remove another condition and burn when you use the kits belonging to your class” or “Utilize skills from your class-specific bar to do more damage to multiple opponents.” Sure I’d be a little sad that I cant take SD and KR at once but some things just make more sense.

And I refuse to believe that this was a lazy attempt at balance. I really don’t want to think that. I really wish someone on the team cried tears at night or poured out a 40oz for what they believed they had to do to fix this.

Edit: I am now imagining Colin pouring out a bottle on the ground…and it’s too funny to me because I have no idea what he looks like without that giant smile on his face.

Eviator.9746:

Your multi-kit build still works.
If your build is destroyed by the change, then your build relied too heavily on an adept-level trait.

What is wrong with relying on something good? If that was such a problem, move it up the tree. The grandmaster traits aren’t even worth it. Every single good trait in the tools line is an adept trait. There isnt a single build in tools that didnt take either Kit Refinement, Static Discharge, or Speedy Kits. Master traits arent awful but are usually good for one Scope MIGHT have been on that list if it actually worked. I’ve seen builds with 30 in traits that took those three only. Then Static Discharge really is next on the chopping block and the cooldown on Speedy Kits will get doubled.

Spiuk.8421:

Before the patch we could choose between two builds (three if you count being useless as an aceptable playstyle).

Now we have one.

le versatility class

This is what happens when you make a class about versatility in a game where all the classes are designed to be versatile. Every class is the best in something (supposedly) but can be built to do other things if you dig hard enough. (supposedly)

The engineer is the class that’s not to be the best at anything but capable of anything. But we have no fallback. Warriors damage, Guardians block, Thieves hide and cloak, Mesmers hide behind seven clones. What do Engineers do? Drop turrets?

I don’t like the idea of using the elite for an extra Blast Finisher. Use Healing Turret instead. Lay it down first so its water field can come up and disappear.
Heal Turret, Thumper Turret, Mine, Big Ol Bomb(1), Overcharge Thumper(1), Smoke Bomb. Detonate your turrets and mine(3) and finish with thumper’s toolbelt Shockwave(1). If the field persists you can leap finisher with your Rifle(1).
That’s seven triggers.

In the past, it did not. However, Feb 26th patch included this:

Racial Skills
Sylvari: Seed and Turret abilities can now be used in conjunction with one another.

I’ve just jumped in game to see if it meant that these count as Turrets for all your turret related skills. And it doesn’t seem so. I can not heal it via Tool Kit attacks, and Autotool Installation does not automatically heal it. Perhaps it meant that there was an issue with using Healing Seed and Seed Turret simultaneously. But whatever the case, Seed Turrets do not benefit from Turret related traits.

Because you would have three blast finishers on an autoattack which can be overwhelmingly powerful.

Oxstar.7643:

I have yet to try the new version but as someone who ran double super elixir build I can say that it was very annoying to have no control over where the first one landed and since it shared CD with other KR effects I’d often find it on CD when I needed it most. The buff to SE to make up for this seems rather massive and if they can even make the new heal numbers even close to the old one then this is a nice solution imo. Let’s also look at the positive aspect. SE, even the double version, could easily be out damaged by a decent melee build. The new immobilize effect seems to give a nice little remedy to that.

Also, having a flameshield with the flamethrower is WAY better than the old effect, and this magnetic mine sounds interesting. Also remember that this frees engineers from the burden of having to spend 10 points only to maximixe the healing effect of SE. so if you’re fine with not having an extra glue then this means 10 points you can spend elsewhere.

All in all, I’m not sure why people complain.

You had control over where it landed by positioning yourself to where you need to be. I used rifle and EG. So whenever I wanted to double heal on someone else. I would Jump Shot over and then swap kit. You can’t really aim a passive ability, so having it drop at your feet made it simple. The instant casting condition removal and heal was powerful enough.

The bulk of my complaint is the fact that I utilize 3-4 kits. Changing KR is a build-defining change. If you’re wielding a single kit, you might enjoy the fact that you don’t have to trait into KR for the same effective heal that we have now. But you also have to take note that you’ve lost your most powerful Condition Removers. Swapping into EG or FT can remove fear; something that Super Elixir can’t normally do because it’s disabled during the duration of fear. Things like this were important to many of us who went with 3+ kits and utilized those abilities. The only way to remove a condition with kits now is Super Elixir and Drop Antidote. Depending on the last time KR triggered, swapping into kit for the purpose of Condition Removal may or may not trigger KR and send it on Global CD. This puts you in a very negative situation. Do I waste KR or do I put off sustaining myself for 2 seconds to trigger it now?

The abilities are interesting to use, and I’m sure there are many single or double kit builds that enjoy the new KR effects. But the combination of the loss of sustainability with generic reactionary utility AND a global cooldown which does nothing but hurt multi-kit users and make it harder to rely on the effects, hits a lot of people who relied on it.

I’d use Speedy Kits for better mobility and then change Sitting Duck since you aren’t going to be abusing the glue puddles from the KR. Probably to either Knee Shot for more control or Precise Sights if you really want those vulnerability stacks.

I’ve already learned to play with it though. And I’m telling you that it in my tests, that it is either not beneficial or more taxing than the current KR spells are worth.

However, now that it is 100% clear to me that this has just a l2 kitten ue for you from the beginning, I can rest well knowing that it is not for trolling that I will ignore you, but your inability to understand the importance of feedback in the constant iterative of a game’s design.

I handled the new guy quite well, thank you.

However, I don’t really care for what you personally have chosen to use or test. Playstyles are different. People choose to play differently. What one person finds effective others don’t. However, I don’t think you see what I’ve been getting at. I’m talkking about the new method of play for KR users. It has become either tedious and punishing, or trivial. Why would you give a player reactionary benefits on a global cooldown that triggers on one of the things the player does most often (switching kits)? The people who see the benefits as trivial or not beneficial to them don’t use it (like you). Those of us who have found some worth in them(like I have) have to go through a lot of trouble just to get to use them properly.

Also, an example that you made many hours ago doesn’t work as you say. Stowing a kit won’t grant me spells. If you wanted to get the Flame Shield proc on your FT’s KR but also need to heal, the best course of action would be to use the Toolbelt heal skill if that’s off cd first. Because after that, you’ll have to drop the flamethrower kit, wait for the 1s kitswap cd to drop, and then re-equip it, and then you get your shield. Then you open up to your Med Kit. and use those.

But what if that toolbelt skill is already on CD and you got burst back down. Well, now you can either
a)go straight to med kit to heal up. You’ll lose the ability to go flame shield, but at least you’re alive.(Treats the Desire for shield as trivial)

b)drop the kit, wait one second, bring FT up, and then go Med Kit and heal. (Puts the Engineer in a dangerous situation where in order to receive your bonus, you must postpone healing)

I can easily see why you don’t take KR. But for my Elixir, Bomb, Med Kit, Sitting Duck setup, it’s pretty useful. However, as you clearly see, managing such a thing can be costly in battle.

And THAT has been my point from the beginning. I don’t mind ANet making “changes”. But when something that many people use suddenly becomes either trivial or tedious, it is not a good change.

nakoda.4213:

KR has changed to fit the devs’ plan for the engie. the way it works is how you have to work with it, like it or not.

1)Your ability to swap kits and chain abilities has NOT been nerfed in any way.
2)The removal of the internal ghost cd on KR was a BUFF from last patch.
3)The alterations to proc effects change not only the uses of the kit but the way the kit is used.

1)Yes, it has. The global cd makes it impossible to chain THESE specific skills and puts some players into net loss situations. Effectively putting multiple skills on cooldown for the ability to use one of them. This is the kind of treatment that they give trebuchets. Not to mention that a number of them are fairly subpar and pointless to a person’s playstyle and would only serve to get in the way of the one or two skills that they traited into KR to utilize.

2)No, that’s not a buff. That was a rework. It is only a buff if both of the following are true:
a)you only used a single kit AND
b)the personal cooldown that your single kit’s KR had was longer than 10s
If you used more than one kit, you could not utilize more than one KR effect within the span of 10s. To many people, this can be considered a nerf.

3)It’s bigger than the kit actually. It changes how your entire engineer is played. Elixir Gun’s change is so wide that you can’t even compare the two. One was used for healing, condition removal, and combo field use. The other is used specifically for immobilization. However, this difference doesn’t alter just your use of Elixir Gun, it alters how you use your build. You’ve gained an immobilizer at the cost of instant-speed condition removal and heal. How do you compensate this with your traits? Your weapon choices, Your other skill choices, your armor’s stat bonuses? How do your teamwork strategies change now that you have a lag in condition removal and one less pool to use for your team? How does the global cooldown affect your speed at responding to certain issues? If you’re wondering why everyone is taking this change so hard, it’s because this one trait affected too many things.

I had a really chance encounter of a new player starting out as an Engineer whispering me and asking how should he build his new character for DPS. With all of my favorite ways of playing the class using multiple kits and KR’s old utilities, I couldn’t tell him much else other than bombs, grenades, and your favorite elixirs. This is the main class I play and I don’t even feel confident in giving advice on what is effective now. Which is why this Engineer “vision” seems really scary. Rather than giving us more “options”, they simply gave us more “choices”. The words are similar but are pretty different here. I can’t do this and that and the other. I can do this or that or the other. My tools are getting harder and harder to use but the skill ceiling isn’t even increasing. How does this change better fit our ability to be versatile?

Terrahero.9358:

Nilix.2170:

sunnypsyop.3025:

Why is anyone still responding to Nakoda at all? Obvious troll is obvious. :/

Because even if he is just being silly, there is always the possibility of SOMEONE OUT THERE actually agreeing with that sentiment.

And then you wont change their minds either. The guy has basicly been repeating the same thing over and over and over. Despite it being a completele logical falacy and having people point out over and over just how rediculous his arguments are. He then just pops back in and essentially repeats the same thing he said before.

Stop “argueing” with him, he is trolling or ignorant. And anyone that thinks there is a point to what he says is even dumber. Either way you are wasting your time on someone who’s prime debate skills are “repeat a lie often enough and it becomes true… right?”

It would benefit me nothing if he or any other player agreed with me. That’s just a pity party. The REAL hope comes from the possibility that someday, some dev who can actually do something about it reads this thread. I believe this is the largest thread about the Kit Refinement trait rework that we’ve got. I’m pretty sure they’ll catch onto this soon. I’m just waiting for this thread to get the ANet logo on it.

Yeah, the rifle isn’t necessary. In fact, it’s a lot easier to trigger with pistol since you get the AOE + the cripple in case it doesn’t hit immediately. However, it synergizes a lot better with the rifle damage wise since Vulnerability does not improve your Condition Damage ticks.

The new Kit Refinement that everyone is shunning is actually working nicely on this.
With Elixir Gun’s new KR, Glue Trail, I can kite around enemies dropping multiple puddles on them. Applying anywhere from 10-25 stacks of vulnerability. Rifle and Pistol both come with an additional immobilizer, and the bomb kit has the Sticky Bomb. You can kite around and keep them in place as you drop bombs (backed with Steel-Packed Powder for even more vulnerability). Your third skill can be anything you see fit. I’m thinking of utilizing Throw Mine for more dispersed damage.

Seras.5702:

You can’t rely on KR anymore. Now it’s just a trivial bonus. Hopefully it’s something good when you need it.

Anyone who thinks that should not take the trait at all. Why waste 10 points on something trivial and can’t personally rely on? Might as well take another trait. You either work with the new skills or put 10 points to put into another line where you are assured of its usefulness.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Also, why shouldn’t you be able to avoid a proc by jumping? That gives you actual control over the ability.

I agree with everything else you said, but the “Jumping to avoid KR trigger” legitimately sounded like a bug when I first heard of it and I knew it would be removed sooner or later. An equally valid question would be: “Why would jumping cause a trait to not work?” I don’t find a problem with having a way to control such a thing, but it really shouldn’t be so nonsensical and unintuitive.

nakoda.4213:

eg: you want to save medkit proc for that panic moment when you need extra defenses. – okay, that’s cool, but in the meantime while you don’t need it, you could be using it on something else more pertinent like glue trail or magnet bomb.
- my point is that intending to save the proc is all well and good, and sometimes you are going to get shafted because it is on cd.

edit: if you are in a quandary about swapping kits because you need that proc for something specific, then you ought not have painted yourself in to a corner. with instant kit swapping there is no excuse not to be able to think through three to five kit swaps within a 20 second window of opportunity.

Playing Engineer was all about making the right choices at the right moments. But the difference is the kind of choices we had. You didn’t have to save one skill because you needed to use another. You just let all your combat tricks refresh and you could use them when you needed them. We weren’t IN a corner until just now when we became forced to make that decision.

But you’re right.

What you just said right there is how it now has to be played. Elixir Gun’s new skill is also pretty good and completely changes how I open fights, however, I lose a removal and heal. EG/FT build users lose TWO removals. And now these builds need to compensate. Med Kit users now have to circumvent its bonus because the CD on Drop Stimulant and the internal CD are the same. If you want anything other than that 2s reflect, you better swap to that before getting your Fury and Swiftness back.

We’re all playing around these new restrictions that, quite honestly, seem unnecessary. Reworking the skills is one thing, adding a cooldown is another. Strapping on both just makes me wish that they did one or the other because now the entire framework is different and it’s hard to tell which one is the true cause of the problem. Especially when it’s something that affects the most core of issues (Condition Removal, How to Open a Fight, Skill Timing). For people who used the KR skills of the past, to their maximum benefit, it’s like the class itself has changed. I can personally say that I utilize those passive benefits more than I did my toolbelt skills. The KR trait was more core to my build than one of the core features of the engineer.

And that’s why this is such an issue. This one trait affects so many builds in COMPLETELY different ways. It’s not even funny. One person used it for burst damage, another used it for extra heal. It would have been better and much more manageable if they had made separate traits out of all of these skills rather than a single trait that would ended up so core in utility. They can do away with all those unused traits in the Tool line if they did. I can hear their usual reasoning in my head already “Ah, we didn’t want to force all the ____ kit users into using _ trait and have more open trait ideas.” While good practice in theory, I haven’t heard of many Engineers using anything that weren’t already available in the Adept Tools section. Speedy Kits, Lightning, and Kit Refine was all I ever liked in there… Well, there’s also Scope but I hear that doesn’t work. If I had the ability to only have the new Kit Refine on Elixir Gun without having to worry about Bomb, Med, or anything other kit ruining my setup, it would be a lot more manageable.

But that would require a complete change of the Tools line in itself, and I don’t think I want to mess with that. Next thing you know, we find every single person who uses Armor Mods complaining just as much as I am.

I think the opposite. We need to stop mentioning the good things that we have, in hopes that no one will see or know the damage that we’re doing.

nakoda.4213:

But really, why would you be saving a KR proc for longer than 20 seconds?

The answer is simple. Kit Refinement is used as immediate utility. When you need it, you can use it. Well, back then anyway.

However, in this patch, the game has effectively changed. This rework gets rid of skills and replaces them with new ones. This as if, 1-3 of your skills on your toolbar are now completely different. And pressing one of them, keeps you from using the other two. Much like a trebuchet.

So why WOULD you save your switch for a KR proc now? Same reason. When you need something, you can do it. Need an escape? Elixir Gun/Acid Bomb. Need to keep opponent in place? Bomb Kit swap and just start rolling the keyboard! 523411111. The bomb’s interrupt and the sticky bomb’s immobilize will hold them in place long enough to get all your other bombs in (granted they don’t have some way to save themselves. And you have other options. Reflect/Flame Shield/Super Speed/Mine) They’re all useful in some form. Whether they’re more or less useful than their previous counterparts is another discussion, but there’s a problem.

These new skills are now all relying on each other. i.e. If you used Reflect, you can’t use Mine for 20s. If you used Flame Shield, you can’t use Magnet Bomb for 20s. Multi-kit Engineers now face a new inner conflict: In a situation of life and death, do I swap into a kit that would grant the instant utility that I need or the kit with the skill I need? Whichever kit I swap to will send ALL of my KR utility onto cooldown. I can’t rely any of those other utilities for another 20 seconds.

So let’s ask this again: Why would I hold out for 20s to use a skill? Because swapping kits would put multiple skills that I want to actively and purposely use at some point in combat on CD. These new skills have become far more specific to their situational usefulness AND have very short durations (Med Kit reflecting projectiles for 2s, FT only being useful when you’re being attacked for 3s, Tool Kit’s super speed lasting only 2s) without the proper timing of kit switching, what is the point? If the skills on KR weren’t important enough for me to want to hold out for them, they are effectively pointless! If they grant me nothing that I care for, why would I take this trait in the first place? It would be mere luck of the draw that an enemy engineer using a net shot gets reflected because I happened to want to open Med Kit to Drop Stimulant. Am I picking up traits for luck?

If you went single kit, or didn’t use KR or care about its abilities, you’re very minimally affected by this and don’t really care. And it’s evident by the posters who say that their engineer is perfectly fine because they don’t use KR and can still have fun and be important. But now, many people multi-kit/KR users feel as if their investment in learning the benefits of these utilities and when to properly apply them have been completely cut from under them. The utility we had in the past were extremely useful. Apparently SO useful, that ArenaNet saw fit to change how the whole system worked. For what, 100nades? No way. There’s no way it can be only that. I refuse to that grenade spammers are responsible for the undermining of my Bomb/Tool/Elixir setup. Is dropping more puddles while in super speed as a gravity bomb pulls everyone in a broken combination? Who knows? No one will know because we aren’t able to find that out. Now that it can’t be broken, I guess it won’t need to be fixed.

One thing is certain though: A core setup is now completely gone. The utility that answered many problems for me has been replaced with ones that respond to completely different set of problems and runs on a system that takes requires far more maintenance. But when new engineers pop up, they’ll learn the new system and will get along with it as if nothing’s happened.

In short: Utilities are used for a reason. If you have no reason to use them, or don’t care for what they do, then you wouldn’t even take them in the first place. The new KR spells not only require much more attention to what’s going on but can give a “ kitten If-You-Do-Or-Don’t” feeling to multikit player decisions in the heat of battle.

However, for all my aggravation, I am out to push this new system as far as it can go. Because maybe if I break it again, it might just change. I am now pretty skilled at applying 25 stacks of vulnerability via EG’s glue puddles + Sitting Duck + Steel-Packed Powder and just kiting around with Elixir Gun, Bomb Kit, and Net Turret. It’s not running so well against multiple targets because the turret gets focused down, but if I’ll manage… or just give up on the trait altogether.

Oh man, I am in tears. Legendary Grenade Kit skins when? ARENANEEEEEET!

I know you guys love to talk about things to do that can fix the game. But sometimes I enjoy the idea of being overpowered. It’s empowering.
This is a really terrible idea but I was wondering just how terrible it would get.
What if they took out the Grandmaster Trait Auto Dispenser Smoke Bomb and swapped it with something saying “Explosions are Blast Finishers” Let’s call it Explosive Impact. Now all the bombs, grenades, dodge roll bombs, 25%HP mines, and the rest are all giving you combo finishers.

What would you do?

I bought the Quaggan Backpack and then I realized this…

Ah, I just checked the sticky and you are right. When my friend told me about the fix I was absolutely confused. Thanks.

> Freeze Grenade: This skill no longer benefits from the Explosives trait Grenadier for 5-second cooldown reduction.

I don’t understand what this is trying to say. It still throws 3 grenades at 1500 distance. Was there a bug on the Grenadier trait that reduced the cooldown to 5 seconds? What exactly happened to the skill?

I love this idea. Flamethrower Oil Canister with a Guild logo on the back? Priceless.