Guild Wars 2

Loki.4871:

Durzlla.6295:

Not to mention warriors and rangers have a totally different theme (nature dweller) than warrior (soldier). And that rangers in GW1 didn’t NEED to use a pet.

Guildwars 1 is pretty limited for comparisons. Remember, the warrior in Guildwars I is still the standing joke; anything it can do, other classes can do better. Anything.

As for the ranger, it’s quite telling when Anet were doing the pve updates that gave the classes (except warrior) some Very Silly skill buffs for pve (Signet of Spirits for the ritualist, for example) that the ranger’s focused entirely on the pet; only a handful of skills outside the Beastmaster trait line got touched. The team were very clearly trying to get rangers to do more than bring the pet along for some kitten or for a corpse.

It was pretty much ignored, of course. Everyone wanted to be ‘teh snipar’ with their bow. I’m really not sympathetic to this problem; you want to grab a bow and see big numbers, just play a warrior already.

I’m not really sympathetic to the few players who coddle to ANet’s design philosophy for Rangers either. Not when god and all creation begs otherwise. It’s irrelevant that they “want” you to play it like a beastmaster when almost everyone else thinks otherwise. This is not unlike ANet still thinking WvW is some sort of casual PvE zone…with a minor PvP mechanic attached to it.

They’ve demonstrated that they are not willing to compromise with players on much anything, or steer towards a rational line of thinking with this in particular. If someone wants to have big numbers with a bow, wtf would you have play a Warrior for that? It makes no sense.

Wellomancer works really well with siphoning, especially with the prot trait for wells for dmg mitigation. At least it has for me in W3 zerg conditions.

Small-man and solo, prolly not so much.

Durzlla.6295:

thefantasticg.3984:

Durzlla.6295:

thefantasticg.3984:

And only people who haven’t rolled a thief and warrior say if you don’t want a pet roll one of those. The closest you can get to the agility of a ranger is d/d thief, and then it isn’t the same. It just isn’t. It’s got a different feel to it.

psizone.8437:

Bauli.5398:

What if I wanna roll a ranger without the pet and not as a thief or warrior? It was my favourite on gw1 to play ranger.

Best you can do is don’t put any points in beast mastery, choose 2 pets with support abilities like regen or stability, put them in passive (to keep them out of combat) and ignore them. If they’re alive, use f2 for the ability, if not, nevermind them.

Thats what those of use who don’t want the pets do. Although we usually run jungle cat for the 5 might stacks and the red moa for fury.

Sadly, I have to admit without a cat you aren’t going to out dps a warrior. While the cat is up, with RaO, jungle cat f2, and warhorn #5, you can out dps a shout/banner zerker axe/axe warrior.

You don’t need a cat or bird to out DPS a warrior, you need a Canine, Drake, Spider, or Devourer to out DPS a warrior, if you’re using a cat and can keep the cat up 100% the warriors gonna sit in a corner and cry because the cat out DPSes him alone.

With 30 pts in BM and RaO + WH #5, sure… on a stationary object.

You can give your pet 25 might without RaO with relative ease, not to mention all you’ve gotta do is 1) chill them or 2) cripple them + swiftness your pet (both extremely easy tasks for a ranger) and your kitty will have no issue nibbling on your target, not to mention you’ve also got MT, and Entangle if you really wanna just pin them down. Or you can pair up with a very CC heavy build that’ll keep them still for you.

There’s A LOT of builds that make people stand still, so don’t act like it’s some difficult task.

You don’t WvW much do you?

Ryoki Hokishami.2756:

Bauli.5398:

Hi.

I think there should be an option, a build possibility, to play Ranger without the pet.
I dont like the pet, I like the ranger.

If you don’t like the pet, why did you make a ranger? That’s like saying “I like elementalists, but I hate those attunements they use!”

Because the thematic ethos of a “ranger” has little to do with a pet. ANet’s version of a ranger is basically a beastmaster, not a typical ranger. Who gives a darn what the class-specific mechanic is? Players don’t choose classes based on that. They choose them based on past experience, personal identity, stereotype, and utility.

ANet just needs to change the name to Beastmaster, and these forums would go quiet.

chemiclord.3978:

Obsidian.1328:

chemiclord.3978:

Even if it’s (2) then what exactly would you propose Arena.net have done instead? NOT make Guild Wars 2?

Yes.

Then you’re being wholly irrational and unreasonable. There is absolutely no way they DON’T make a game. That’s just ridiculous.

Not really.

If a publisher orders you to not include most of your previous work, should you bow out? Absolutely. How would you react if an art dealer tells you to only show a 3rd of your painting? ANet could have simply refused, lost NCSoft as a publisher, and waited until they found another. Does that suck? Yes. Does it mean a lot of people might have to take a pay hit? Yes.

But at least they get to keep their integrity.

Tobi

One man’s terrorist is another man’s patriot. The English did all sorts of atrocious things to the Irish for hundreds of years, and the Irish(when given the opportunity) did equally atrocious things back to them in return. Who’s more “right”. Truth is subjective. It depends on your point of view, like Dust said. ANet wants them to be viewed as terrorists by having them be reckless with bystanders because it reinforces their own agenda; i.e. unity amongst the playable races. Obviously this wouldn’t matter much if GW1 didn’t exist, but it does.

Dust

The thing is ANet only gives you one side to view it from, so it’s not situational. To them, looking at it from the Separatists side is wrong in-game. They may have said that about the centaurs, but they stop short from giving hard-line Ascalons the same relative maneuvering. In this scenario, it’s black and white to them. And that’s a problem.

chemiclord.3978:

Even if it’s (2) then what exactly would you propose Arena.net have done instead? NOT make Guild Wars 2?

Yes.

chemiclord.3978:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s not speculation though: “At one point during development, this area was originally a completed Canthan district and included a blend of Asian architectures. However, this mix of styles received negative feedback from China and Korea, since those gaming markets traditionally prefer a uniform design. Due to time constraints the district was replaced by the Great Collapse.”

Then why are we having this argument again?

Because if we KNOW why NCSoft did it (personally I’ve never seen confirmation of the italicized), why would you be calling bull kitten? That’s their reason, and if they say “no”, it means “no.” Arena.net can’t do a kittened thing about it other than start over… and that could take a LOT of time to remake everything from scratch.

So either one of two things happened:

• 1) NCSoft somehow managed to hide this from ANet and drop it juuuuust before finalization of the game, and ANet couldn’t do jack squat about it; or
• 2) NCSoft told ANet about it years ago and ANet just kinda said, "Oh well, we can make this work just using 1/3 of Tyria.

If it’s the former, you’re right, it would be hard to blame ANet. If it’s the latter though, that’s a big middle finger by ANet to GW1 in general. Keep in mind that Eye of the North is both a direct prelude to GW2, and decidedly oblivious to anything Canthan or Elonian. And that was 2007…

Javonovich.5280:

“Due to time constraints…”

So with more time…?

I think that meant that since they had to change it so close to release, a big hole in the ground was the quickest solution. :P

chemiclord.3978:

Obsidian.1328:

Why did NCSoft approve of it whole hog in GW1 then? It doesn’t make sense.

Well, one thing to remember is that (despite federal rulings), companies and corporations AREN’T people. It’s not a static entity with the same people in charge making the same decisions every time. What one executive thinks is okay can do a complete 180 once someone else is making the decision.

And another thing to remember is that the reason NCSoft said “no” is pure speculation. The only thing we know for certain is that NCSoft said “no” (it’s why the Queen’s Jubilee is where the Canthan District was supposed to be, remember). There could be an entirely different reason.

It’s not speculation though: “At one point during development, this area was originally a completed Canthan district and included a blend of Asian architectures. However, this mix of styles received negative feedback from China and Korea, since those gaming markets traditionally prefer a uniform design. Due to time constraints the district was replaced by the Great Collapse.”

I still think they need a pet with an AoE stabo on the F2. 40 sec cd would suffice.

Dustfinger.9510:

bullyrook.2165:

I have a question: does that mean when our hero’s fought for Ascalon in GW1, we were actually the bad guys?

Not so! It means that when a member of each race fights for what’s best for their race/home/family/city/etc, they don’t have to be inherently bad or good.

But ANet wants you to think the Separatists(and Renegades for that matter) are bad. That wanting to continue fighting for your home, in this case, is inherently a bad thing.

How does that fit in to your premise?

Why did NCSoft approve of it whole hog in GW1 then? It doesn’t make sense.

nightwulf.1986:

Erm, should I point out all of the outcry against Jory and Kasmeer based on religious/cultural objections? I bet you some of these same people feel that the Cantha outcry is ridiculous without a moment of self-reflection. More people are a part of the “I object!” club and they just don’t know it.

I don’t recall any outcry with that. Nor with Caithe and Faolain. This is actually one thing ANet did right.

That aside, your question about religious indignation in real life preventing people from playing games the way they want lacks…experience. Do you remember when conservative groups blasted SWTOR for having homosexual relationships in game and called for boycotting? Yeah. People can take issue with anything about a game they choose for better or worse. It’s up to the developers to pick and choose their battles and the presentation of Cantha certainly appears to be a point of contention to an important group of people.

The thing is, it wasn’t a point of contention back in GW1. Cantha is less a Korean/Japanese/Chinese mix, and more a world unto itself which borrows some thematic elements from many different Eastern cultures. I know for a fact the devs back then purposely tried to not make it seem like it represented any particular culture. NCSoft isn’t backing down from this for any moral or respectful reasons, they are doing it because they think it will hurt sales. That’s really the only reason. How can you get behind that?

chemiclord.3978:

Obsidian.1328:

When was this an issue in GW1? When were the public outcries from cities like Osaka and Shanghai?

I don’t think ANY part of Guild Wars 1 was released in China.

And I recall Factions being by far the lowest selling of the GW1 games in Korea by a pretty wide margin (though I couldn’t tell you where I saw that).

You’re going to need to cite links for this.

Yeah, Cathedral of Flames I always assumed was made by someone else. It doesn’t fit in with other Charr structures at all. Kind of like how the Ebon Vanguard were inhabiting the Eye of the North. They were just using someone else’s stuff. :P

Kalavier.1097:

Maybe not like a human city, but I’m sure they do have villages/cities of a sort. Though I recall some ascalonian style ruins all the way in the charr flame legion homelands…

Where is that? 0.o

Kalavier.1097:

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

How do we know they were nomadic in GW1? That they didn’t have vast cities back in their homelands away from the front lines of their invasion?

That kind of thinking leads to all sorts of problems. How do we know there aren’t vast Grawl cities as well somewhere off the map? Or Centaur? Or Ogre? We don’t, but we can only presume based off of how the game portrays a given culture. The GW1 Charr gave almost no impression of anything urban or settled in nature. Everything points to a nomadic and/or tribal way of life. Extrapolating from those precedents seems a logical thing to do.

If anything, the Ascalons would be the one’s to have cities/towns outside the known one’s we see in-game. They are known to be both explorers, and permanent settlers. Who’s to say they didn’t have vast settlements back behind their homelands away from the front lines?

We know Ascalon had Nolani and Surmia (spelling?) north of the wall. Maybe another (which could be the urban fractal perhaps.)

Thing is, EOTN established they had forts and such. “homelands” and even in GW2 we hear about the “blood citadel” which is the Blood legion headquarters, though we don’t have a location.

The front lines isn’t really a good example of a races behaviour elsewhere. Charr warcamps don’t mean they don’t have towns in other areas, and in GW2 they obviously set up villages so it makes sense.

Grawl simply don’t make sense to have cities. Centaurs and Ogres both have some sizable camps/forts, so both would make sense to perhaps have a city.

Drascir is the other of note. Not sure if the urban fractal is representative of any particular city. And EotN is GW2 for purposes here. Even in GW1 in Diessa Lowlands, they give a glimpse of a Charr encampment. That area of low stone pyramids where you have to retrieve Althea’s ashes is a Charr structure. [remember that they had been inside Ascalon north of the wall for years before the actual Searing] If that area is any indication of Charr culture(I see no reason why it shouldn’t), then it certainly implies a more tribal existence. I’m sure they probably had areas of possibly religious importance(worshiping Titans and all) like this somewhere up north. But without anything else besides religious structures like this and the actual Cauldron to speak of, how can we assume they have anything resembling urban centers akin to human cities?

Dustfinger.9510:

How do we know they were nomadic in GW1? That they didn’t have vast cities back in their homelands away from the front lines of their invasion?

That kind of thinking leads to all sorts of problems. How do we know there aren’t vast Grawl cities as well somewhere off the map? Or Centaur? Or Ogre? We don’t, but we can only presume based off of how the game portrays a given culture. The GW1 Charr gave almost no impression of anything urban or settled in nature. Everything points to a nomadic and/or tribal way of life. Extrapolating from those precedents seems a logical thing to do.

If anything, the Ascalons would be the one’s to have cities/towns outside the known one’s we see in-game. They are known to be both explorers, and permanent settlers. Who’s to say they didn’t have vast settlements back behind their homelands away from the front lines?

drax

I actually thought you meant just the melee types. :/

How is Orrian Caucasian? Isn’t Orr styled after Middle Eastern themes? I suppose if you’re using it in the general sense to mean everyone in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, and western Asia. That’s the textbook definition, but it’s also used to mean European ancestry…which is what we’re arguing about. If we used your definition, every culture in GW1 but Istan and Cantha proper would be considered Caucasian.

Assuming the GW2 Ranger was anything like the GW1 Ranger.

Nike.2631:

Ok, realpolitik time:

While to many outside of eastern Asian the region looks like one big blob of dirt and a few island occupied by a lot of people with epicanthic eye-folds, the region is actually filed with a complex array of cultures and ethnicities that on the whole hate each other and have been killing each other for thousands of years right up to and including some massive atrocities in the last century. Seriously, ask the man on the street in Osaka and Shanghai about their opposite number in the other city and odds are you’ll hear things that would make the klu klux klan blush. During my stay in Japan I had some of the most pleasant folks imaginable go absolutely feral over things as small as casting a Chinese-descended actor to play a nominally Japanese-American character. We’re talking Hollywood day-to-day business as usual taken as a call for lynch mobs. Ugly.

Now introduce a bunch of dudes and dudettes from the American west coast who have a fondness for Asian architecture/visual stylings and maybe a little understanding of feudal cultures but little or no grounding in the actual historical events of the region. They roll out a setting featuring a mash-up of cultural cues about as insensitive and inappropriate as decorating a classical synagogue with swastikas to people who grew up in the cultures being mangled.

It kittened some people off. And it should. Rather than put a historian on staff to spot check a setting that’s largely unworkable from the ground up they have wisely decided to just NOT put their foot in that particular wolf-trap again after getting out of it once already by gnawing that limb off.

When was this an issue in GW1? When were the public outcries from cities like Osaka and Shanghai?

Deflection, but ok I’ll roll with it.

There’s a lot to be said for your comment. From the establishment of Ascalon and Kryta, to guilds killing each other in the streets of Arah, to Elonians slaughtering Forgotten in the Crystal Desert, all the way to Meerak shouting “Repent for your sins!” like a crazy man. Indeed, GW2 could be seen as a logical continuation of that premise.

I would argue humanity had already paid that price. Unrestricted magic-use cost Tyrians the full use of it, and humans in particular the protective presence of the gods after their Exodus. Unending Guild warfare cost them the strength to resist the Charr invasions. The Cataclysm and Searing themselves can(sort of) be seen as fate finally coming ’round on the irresponsibility of human privilege and power.

But are humans really the bad guys in all of this? Was it humans who came to this world of their own volition? Was it humans who created unrestricted magic to abuse? Was it humans who imprisoned a god, only to have that act come back to haunt them tenfold? Was it humans who decided to push into Charr lands in the first place?

No. The real bad guys, if we must decide, are the gods themselves. It was their irresponsibility and arrogance which has caused, directly or indirectly, most of the strife in Tyria’s history. Humans are by no means innocent, but to say they are the bad guys of Tyria is more than a little misguided.

Dustfinger.9510:

Ehhh….

“They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control. //in no time we began to take over.// Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

That ^ can be found in the guild wars manuscripts that came with the first game before any expansion.

Well if yer going to take all that literally, then you gotta believe this too from the same source:
“Despite the serpents’ retreat, the gods never halted their work creating the world, and with the benevolence of indulgent parents, they decided to create magic. It was to be a gift to all the intelligent creatures—meant to ease a life of toil and make survival a less arduous task. When they had finished creating their gift, they presented it to the humans and the Charr, the Tengu and the dwarves, the minotaurs and the imps, and all the races of the land.”
;)

Oh these posts are fun.

“your” land?

It is this mad human king, who drove the Iron Legion out of these lands. The Legions took, what is rightfully their own.

…as of 2012.

By your logic, Ukraine shouldn’t exist and over a half of it should belong to Poland (Belorussia and Lithuania too) – yet it is not like that. History is history, what have passed belongs to the past.

Well that’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. How would a Ukrainian feel if Putin suddenly proclaimed Russia the “ancestral homeland” of the ancient Rus and he invades and kicks out all those “foreign” Ukrainians. Stupid scenario, right? Don’t confuse real history with fantasy.

And I don’t believe, that charr were that bad in that war.

Althea called, she wants her un-scorched skin back.

If so, how would they rise to the worldwide military greatness, which is second to none?

Answer: a few nerds(like all of us here) rewriting the Charr narrative, that’s how.

Dustfinger.9510:

Stramatus.5219:

When the treaty is done with, I and my brothers will rise up a drive the Charr back out of our homeland.

Sounds awfully familiar :P

Of course it does. It’s silly to think that in GW2. ANet writers cover their bases well.

You said soldier, not caster. We’ve already been over that skin, it’s the same as the Savant I posted earlier. That model is very rarely used, not 1 quarter or whatever you suggested. That it’s 1 of 4-6 actual models doesn’t matter much when the model itself is very rarely used.

The Blade Ranger isn’t a Caucasian model dude. Not to get all racial here, but the lips, nose, eyes, hair all attest to that. I have a big, red Irish nose and red facial hair myself, but I also tan very well for some reason…I don’t think anyone would mistake me for African.

You’re still reaching, drax.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But if, in theory, Tolkein (or his estate) had written those things, or given a stamp of approval on the scripts? Would you still be saying these are not “the real” Lord of the Rings?

Depends.

If it was only his estate, then definitely.

If it was Tolkien himself? Tbh, still yes. I really don’t see how anyone could take the movies as an honest rendition of the books, even with the man himself backing it.

For the same reasons no one should take young Anakin seriously in the newer Star Wars. Hardly anyone would say he’s an accurate portrayal of a young, and still good, Vader. Lucas be dammed.

There are tons of examples in art where later works by the same author don’t do the original justice. For instance, Leon Uris’ two books on Ireland: Trinity and Redemption. Both use the same setting, deal with the same subject matter, and use a lot of the same characters. But they are vastly different in their message and tone. Trinity is a quintessential work on the Irish character, and a supremely adept depiction of turn-of-the-century(1900) Ireland. By contrast, Redemption, written 20 years later as a sequel, while also very well written, pales in comparison. It’s subject matter and style are in sharp contrast to the dour and serious narrative of its predecessor, and it even goes so far as to alter established roles of pre-defined characters. The two books don’t connect well at all. Uris was near his own death at the time of Redemption, and sometimes old age tends to warp a man’s mind. <cough> Kubrick <cough>

Works on the same subject by the same author, given the right circumstances, can be at odds with each other. Even Hemingway was notorious in his later life for trying to recapture the brilliance of his youthful writing. He couldn’t do it btw. The Guild Wars 2 story is just another worldly example in that long line of failed attempts to recapture the soul and essence of an earlier narrative. But then again, they weren’t really trying to recapture it were they?

CETheLucid.3964:

Obsidian.1328:

CET

You’re twisting facts.

Ascalon was never Charr homeland until GW2 writers wrote it in last year…

I’m following the lore.

You’re denying the parts you don’t like because GW2 writing QQ.

But I’m twisting the facts?

Okay then.

Let’s ignore the AC dungeon story and the Ghosts of Ascalon timeline and pretend that Anet just wrote that in to troll you, Obsidian.

If we agree to ignore the bits of official lore you don’t like, you’re absolutely correct.

I’m twisting the ‘facts’ by using the official lore for my stance, instead of what should be… according to you.

Got it.

Nah, I’m denying parts that are wrong. Just like I’ll never take Peter Jackson’s version of LotR as truth because of all random changes he made to it. And he had full rights to it too, just like this one. It’s called being a purist. Official doesn’t mean a kitten thing more than they are legally sanctioned to write b.s.

It’s not personal, I’m like this with Fox news too. Anything that tries to change history really…

I still don’t know what your’e looking at. No Mantle soldier looks white on that list.

And you think the Blade Ranger looks white? The one with dreads? Yeah, her skin is lighter…instead of dark brown it’s medium brown.

/rollseyes

Drax

Yeah, meant you, sorry.

There’s no visual difference in north and south Kryta in terms of climate. Same palm trees, same sandy beaches, same everything. Sure some tropical plants can survive a little cooler weather, but most can not. Even where I live now in Kansas, Japanese Maples(which aren’t tropical) don’t survive well, yet 100 miles east in KC they do fine. It’s a very subtle shift in climate that you can’t visually see but it matters. But w/e.

I ran around all of Kryta today out of curiosity, didn’t see more than 1 or 2 npc’s that weren’t olive skinned in the whole thing, minus the Ascalon Settlement. And they all were the same skin shade, same fashion, same tattoos…I don’t know where see the gradient.

I didn’t say the Mantle and Blade were associated with Maguuma, I said western Kryta, Especially the Blade. Even so, both of those are almost all olive skinned like everyone else. That lighter-skinned Mantle model(the Savant), while 1 of a handful, is only used very rarely if you look at the exhaustive list of all Mantle mobs. Honestly, I don’t know where you get this skin shade thing. “Certainly, Krytans of Caucasian appearance were, even in GW1, common enough that they got used as generic models, rather than a white Krytan being a cause for comment.” No they weren’t.

You’re latitude argument could be used against you just the same, how the hell does anyone know global Tyrian weather patterns?

Ascalonians mixing with them…sure a little. Not many of them were there though.

Ughh, seriously, I’m already tired of trying to state the obvious I can’t go on. I’m not sure if you’re too much a fan to see it, or too stubborn to admit the changes. There’s absolutely no logical reason for modern Krytans to be be Caucasian. None at all. You can try to stretch every available possibility to the extreme to pat ANet on the back, but it just comes off as a little sad.

They changed the skin tone because they wanted humans to be white for GW2.

It’s really that simple.

Players wear town clothes?

Dust

That is some major reaching there, lol. For one thing, the Mantle and Shining Blade were more closely associated with the wild western part of the kingdom, not the north. For another, I don’t think it’s logical to assume the northern part of GW1 Kryta was in a different climate. The zones in that game tended to be universal by region, and not tied to minor latitudinal gradients that would be natural to Earth. Take Droks or Port Sledge, both are further south than Lion’s Arch and Ascalon City yet are frozen even though they sit on the sea coast.

Besides, I don’t remember seeing any difference in skin color, clothing, culture, or anything from walking the perimeter of Kryta. I suppose Mantle structures were markedly different, but that had nothing to do with latitude. Also, lots of people try to make the Ascalonian migration out to be something bigger than it was. There’s no way to prove it using in-game evidence, but the game tends to imply the refugees were a minority chunk of Ascalon’s population and not a majority one.

But I’d say the biggest reason is simply how ANet markets this game. Seeing as the majority of their target audience are Caucasian(and Asian now), it would make little economical sense for them to have humans as anything but resembling those buying and playing the game. Playing the other 4 races doesn’t come into play here, but I’d bet money that if ANet went with some Mediterranean(Greek, Spanish, Tunisian, w/e) motif for humans, the general appeal for new GW gamers would have been at least slightly less. And we all know ANet(and NCSoft) doesn’t do anything that might mess with potential profit.

Spoj The Second.7680:

…bringing ranger is important to achieve the highest damaging party compostion in the game.

Interesting, it’s never been the case with me is all I can say on that. But I don’t try to speed run things either. Part of the reason I don’t do dungeons is I like to take my time and explore the content at a modest pace. I just don’t see the point in trying to set records for that. :/

^ That usually earns me a lot of exacerbation from my guildies though. :P

CureForLiving.5360:

Obsidian.1328:

I disagree with that. Europe is a prime example, not to mention Asia. Those states have largely retained their cultural uniqueness for over a thousand years, whether in war or peace. Granted that uniqueness is slipping a little more every day, but it’s no where near becoming marginalized yet. And it’s a good thing, too. Losing that heritage to homogenization would not only be unfortunate, but diluting to humanity.

I’m referring to a world like Tyria where all the races get along without any problems create a perfect mechanism by which ideas and believes can be shared and adopted, thus leading to homogenization.
Also… not so sure Europe get’s along all that well with… well Europe. I also can think of a couple of Asian countries that really really don’t like each other. I might be wrong on both account… I’m very far from Eurasia, so my perspective is different.

Well true, but that’s a modern, in-game, phenomenon. They hardly used to get along at all, even within the same race. It actually led to a much more interesting(and believable) setting. This universal hand-holding is swell and all, but I think limiting it to LA and the Orders is the right thing to do. Sometimes I feel like this game exists in a Coke commercial.

No, I’ve just never had a lack of them. So many other classes provide them, you don’t need every class to be able to whip out a fire field on command. Blast finishers are everywhere(except with rangers ofc).

But just to be clear, all you do is spam 1 for dps? That’s really the only way you do damage in dungeons/fractals?

*note: I use focus5 on every dredge I see anywhere…works like a charm. Also works great in Orr. You’re just talking about champs, which are unique and designed so poorly by ANet that spamming 1 is the most effective thing to do. Now that I think about it, perhaps that’s why I don’t do champs that often…

CureForLiving.5360:

Homogenization is a very real thing that happens when different culture mix for long enough. It seems very realistic that in a world like tyria where charr, human, sylvari and norn hold hands and go off adventuring together (sorry Asura are too short they can’t hold hands) then cultural boundaries would start to overlap and ideas and believes would start to be shared.

The only way for a culture to not be homogenized is for it to have no sociable interaction with other culture, ideally via complete isolation. The only way for interacting cultures to not be homogenized is if the cultures had a mistrust or dislike of each other (which is not the case in tyria).

In fact the most non-homogenised cultures are the ‘evil’-groups. The nightmare court, inquest (less so perhaps), and flame legion are all very distinct with their own unique feel, attitudes and world views.

I disagree with that. Europe is a prime example, not to mention Asia. Those states have largely retained their cultural uniqueness for over a thousand years, whether in war or peace. Granted that uniqueness is slipping a little more every day, but it’s no where near becoming marginalized yet. And it’s a good thing, too. Losing that heritage to homogenization would not only be unfortunate, but diluting to humanity.

I could only see that beneficial if you were running solo. A single guardian using purging flames is hand over best better because this one util also cleanses and increases boon duration. Torch, without a condi build, only does 1 thing: provide a fire field. That’s a waste of 2 skill slots.

Now if you’re talking about out-of-combat use only…well any weapon fits that bill. Odd way to play the game though if you’re relying on that for all your fire fields. I chalk this problem up entirely to ANet’s bs skillbar system that doesn’t let you choose.

Hmm, well I would never use a scepter on a power build necro…the direct damage is just too low. Why purposely nerf yourself? I understand there are plenty of times you can buff out-of-combat, just saying it’s odd you would want to use a condi weapon only for 1 mechanic(fire field) when you could be using one that actually had skill use.

Dungeons/Fractals are only one small aspect of PvE, most of it is free-roaming content. Condi’s work fine on most everything there except champs and wb’s. Condi’s are actually op in pvp and w3 atm. The cleave thing…yeah, kinda sucks in that regard I agree. Fingers crossed for those pole arms that rumored for necros! Still, well builds specced for prot can do wonders for the group though, prot is one of the most underrated boons.

You got me on dungeons, I never run ’em. Ranger is my main though, @ 3,500 hours on it. You kinda have to like to micromanage with ’em, the pet mechanic is just that bad for dungeons and fractals. That alone is enough to warrant taking any other class.

Other things are not as good as they seem. For instance, that horn5 skill you mentioned: one of the longest blast finisher CD’s in the game(35s/28s traited), and the horn4 is only good if you’re a power build. All you need are a few peeps with a low CD blast finisher for the whole group.

The fire trap only works on mob trigger, so it’s not something you can prep with before a fight. Torch is way better for that, but is exclusive to a condi build; which is fine for dungeons, but bad for open world content.

Axe5 I can see being good for certain dungeon encounters. I guess I never use it because being rooted=death in W3. Mobility is king. Necro’s may not have party-wide buff appeal, but they certainly bring way more party-wide debuff appeal to the table. It balances out in favor of necros imo.

/shrug. I can see the things you mention being good for dungeons/fractals in particular, but not much else. Still, that pet…

Spoj The Second.7680:

Well i would much rather have a ranger in my group. Spotter, frost spirit, fury, might, fire field, blasts, vuln, reflects and huge long duration imobalize. And theres more obviously.

For general PvE yeah I’d agree. Spotter is in a tree that is packed with goodies, so it’s hard to take sometimes. Rangers do have really good fury and vuln uptime, but might is only 1 aoe stack unless you take a cat. Spirit rangers kinda suck for dungeons and fractals, trap rangers are best for spvp. The reflect is very situational, you can’t move, and it’s on an offhand weap that almost no ranger uses. Entangle is good for general pve and little else, the roots are paper. Basically the best option for ranger is condi…which of course sucks for the 25 stack limit.

Condi necros are at a disadvantage just as much with the stack limit. So I would agree with you on that part for sure. But like someone else said up top, a high power/crit build necro does very high damage with DS traited right, especially lich form. By comparison, my ranger with the same power/crit stats does much less. And while they don’t have many hard CC options, they have oodles of soft options like chill, cripple, and fears. Not to mention the poisons, weaknesses, vulns, and blinds. Their single largest detractor is the lack of a decent non-elite stabo. Guardians are my friends.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Jayce.5632:

Disclaimer: “The necro is not really bad.”

But when you take into account how the game plays out at the most basic mechanics (damage, control, support), how would you rate the necro? People need to honestly ask themselves without over complicating the final answer. Keep it simple, good or bad?

How is the necro when it comes to dealing damage?
How is the necro when it comes to defending against damage?
How is the necro when it comes to dealing control?
How is the necro when it comes to defending against control?
How is the necro when it comes to dealing support?
How is the necro when it comes to receiving support?

Answer these questions with a simple “good” or “bad.” Then ask yourself these same questions for the other classes and see where the necro ranks overall.

Thats over simplifying it tbh. Necro is not really terrible at any of those things but the other classes can provide a lot more of each in most cases. Its also the type of support, damage and control that matters and how useful that is compared to other types.

No matter how you look at it necro is bottom in pve. Ranger (debatable) and engi are also bottom tier classes but they are leagues above necro at the moment.

I can only speak for ranger, but my necro does a better job in all of the above categories except for defending against control, and perhaps dealing support. Third time I’ve posted on the necro forums today, but I do find it much more adaptable and playable than my ranger. :/

flow.6043:

Heal 10k for a 20k hp pool is not the norm.

^ My power ranger(please no jokes) is exactly that, I’m always short on healing.

For some reason, when I play my power necro(axe/dagger & staff) my health almost never goes under 25% unless I die. DS effectively shortens your heal cd by 10 seconds.

At least ya’ll have a choice not to use ’em.

signed,
Rangers

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You should be careful with that “never”. The pilgrims of the Crystal Desert who build the ancient cities there under the leadership of the Ghostly Hero were quite aggressive towards the Forgotten. Then there’s the White Mantle’s rather uncaring push through the southern Shiverpeaks killing just about anything in the way.

The Elonians in the Crystal Desert were there trying to Ascend. The Forgotten were in the way. A case of the ends justifying the means for them. The Mantle were under orders from the Mursaat. The Mursaat wanted Chosen for fodder on the Door of Komalie. Pretty simple really.

And on the other side, it’s not charr in general – it was the Flame Legion leadership and coercion of the other groups. That much got made evident with Pyre – he could care less about killing humans. Derisive, sure, but he was much much more interested in killing the shamans.

It was the Charr in general. The Flame Legion thing was a construct of the GW2 writers to shift the entirety of the blame on them, nothing more. Can’t have a whole playable race as genocidal in a game with no factions. So they create this artificial evil minority who’s really behind all the hate and voila…instant get-out-of-jail-free card for most Charr. I really don’t see how that’s hard to see.

And if the charr were genocidal, they would have continued on after Ascalon (again). Which they didn’t.

They didn’t because they were slated to be a playable race in GW2, how do you not see that?

Rednik.3809:

No widely-known historical records =/= nothing happened, especially if previous inhabitants was defeated and exiled (or even more so if exterminated). Whole history of East European Plain is living conformation of that, where gigantic states like Western Turkic Khaganate, Khazar Khaganate, Old Great Bulgaria, Ulus of Jochi (aka Golden Horde), Nogai Horde, etc., was risen and vanquished from map, large wooden cities was burned and forgotten until last archaeological researches in XX century.
And zero charr inhabitants in Ascalon after 100 BE means same thing as it means in all other similar historical events with “disappearance of natives from local history” – invasion and slaughter.
Unless you have clear evidences of other scenario.

Not widely-known =/= not known either. There isn’t anything at all on it, until ANet puts it in soon I suppose. Also, Earthen analogies don’t correspond accordingly. It’s a different world with different rules. Even Tyrian humans =/= Earth humans.

CET

You’re twisting facts.

Ascalon was never Charr homeland until GW2 writers wrote it in last year…perhaps to quiet these forums, who knows.

Humans never tried to eradicate the Charr, the gods brought them to Ascalon to settle and humans stopped there. They could have cared less about them beyond Ascalon.

Humans never burned Charr prisoners alive for enjoyment…

The Foefire, and modern Adelbern for that matter, are not accurate representations of the Ascalon kingdom. It was written that way to give the Charr some moral footing in settling Ascalon for GW2.

Humans were never genocidal, Charr were.
________________________________________________________________

We all realize you like the Charr and that’s fine, they were well written for GW2 have the best personal story. But don’t try and convince yourself of things that don’t exist, that’s being delusional. Just be happy the devs like them and that you get to play them.

Titus.4285:

Obsidian.1328:

Titus.4285:

My point is: Humans in Tyria are of the same nature as humans on Tellus.

This is a very important statement. Why would you think Tyrian humans are supposed to be the same as us?

Ehm… well… I just do!, ohkey!? :P
Well, most of their attributes seems to be picked off from us somehow. With many historical references, hints, or parallels to our world. The Roman Empire as we’ve discussed, King Henry Oswald’s 7 wives (see what I did there?), jealousy, romance. Well, I guess almost all races in any fantasy story are built upon a base of human attributes and history.

In short: I’m just saying that they seem (from lore and what we see in-game) to have most of the same “flaws” that we have. And I don’t think I’ve seen anything that implies that they’re different in any way (except for magic and all that)…

Well yes, every playable race in any game is going to be birthed out of our own human experience. What I mean is, applying our RL humanity to just game humans is a flawed concept. It applies to every game race equally since a human wrote them all into existence.

By the same token, game humans aren’t necessarily tied to the same histrionics as us. A player should treat them not as the truest pixilated manifestations of ourselves, but rather as just another random game race. They carry our physiological aspects, but their essence and identity are inherently tied to the world in which they exist, not our world. Don’t get me wrong, they are entirely idealized in our minds. It’s just that they are not bound by the same Earthen experience that we are, and are therefore foreign even to us.

So…we should imagine them as a non-human race if we are to see them as they really are: just another fantasy race like any other. Make sense? XD

Titus.4285:

My point is: Humans in Tyria are of the same nature as humans on Tellus.

This is a very important statement. Why would you think Tyrian humans are supposed to be the same as us?

Titus.4285:

“100 BE: Humans drive charr out of Ascalon.”

We didn’t need to settle in Ascalon. We could have stayed in Cantha. We could have stopped in Elona or even Orr.
In less than 500 years, we spread to the south, north, west and east reaches of Tyria (the continent). Clearly – in such a short time – it was not due to population issues.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Not a spoiler, just a little bit on the sideline:

If you care to look at real history; you could draw some very powerful parallels between the internal conflicts in Tyria (the Guild Wars), and to the downfall of the Roman Empire. In about the same amount of time, the Roman Empire expanded with brutality and stacked buffs of quickness.
And as a direct consequence of the overwhelming expansion, it collapsed in internal conflict, much like the human world of Tyria.

My point is: Humans in Tyria are of the same nature as humans on Tellus. And when it comes to claiming land, it can seldom (if ever) be called a story of honor, valor or morality.

I don’t give anyone a moral high ground. The Charr didn’t need to “reclaim” Ascalon. I am sure they’ve could just as well have traveled further to the east.
What upsets me is that you, and many others, are apparently trying to give the humans a moral high ground, and that is just purely ignorant.

What makes you think the Canthans’ age of discovery was any other than our own?

“Before the Exodus of the Gods, the gods lived in Arah (nicknamed the City of the Gods) and aided humans in numerous tasks such as pushing the Charr north so that the settlements that would become known as Ascalon could be established.”

Obviously, the gods wanted them to expand for whatever reason. Next time I see Balthazar at the car wash, I’ll hit him up for an answer.

As far as the Roman analogy, over-extension was just one of many reasons, and not even the primary one. Corruption, severe economic instability, Christianity, European barbarians moving in…I would rate all those more important to Rome’s loss of control over its vast Empire.