Guild Wars 2

Titus.4285:

I’m not saying it was part of their history in GW1 (before EOTN). In fact, the first official timeline released by ArenaNet back in April 2005 told us that “100BE: High-plains human settlements become known as Ascalon.”.
5 years later, when Ghosts of Ascalon was released: this sentence had changed to “100 BE: Humans drive charr out of Ascalon.”.

So if you’re saying that Charr were purely evil savage beasts in GW1, and didn’t have any claim on Ascalon, no one can argue with that. That was my point when I added the interview quotes. They’re saying straight forward that they rewrote (“turning them”, “holy converted”) the Charr. In specific: their heritage claim to Ascalon being their homeland.

So, I can’t argue with Charr being purely evil in GW1 (before EOTN, and that one friendly Charr in Nightfall).
And, you can’t really argue with them having a heritage claim to Ascalon in GW2 (otherwise known as the latest version of GW lore).

I can buy that.

It doesn’t really matter if you think “Ree and Jeff are the two worst culprits of this mess”.

I certainly does if we are to take their word as thematic canon.

Take what you quoted up there, that the Charr are merely freedom fighters. That what they are doing is right. Well that’s all well and good, but that flies in the face of how they portray similar patriotic actions of Ascalonians.

• There’s an achievement for tearing down all the Separatist propaganda in Ebonhawke. Why is what they are fighting for something to be condemned when the Charr did the same thing 250 years ago?
• There’s also a heart quest down there that includes throwing Separatists out of their homes and into the streets and beating them to death to finish it. WTF? So, if I want world completion, I have to take the side against them.
• Then there’s the obvious Adelbern. The dude was a d!@# to his son, but he refused to let his people and kingdom fall to the invading Charr. Is he heroic for never giving up his fight for Ascalon’s freedom? No. He’s completely vilified to the point of malevalent monster…a cautionary tale on what not to do.

ANet holds the Charr up in their right hand and tells you to “honor these bold and noble freedom fighters”, and with their left hand “revile these anarchists who only want to sow war and destruction!”

Yet they both are doing the exact same thing. It’s literary B.S.

^ That’s old news.

Lol, of course those two say that now, the remade Charr are their grande coup for GW2. They are their darlings. They can write in anything they want for them, and they did just that by claiming Ascalon as some “ancestral homeland.” That’s something that was never a part of their history in GW1 proper.

Ree and Jeff are the two worst culprits of this mess. Jeff, in particular, gave us that first friendly Charr in Nightfall…think maybe he had big plans for them? Those two obviously didn’t think much of “plain ol’ euro” Ascalonians, and saw an opening to displace them with Charr hegemony. If you look at both of those writers’ past works, they favor non-humans in almost everything. Connecting the dots should be academic at this point…

Lostwingman.5034:

Part of creating an immersive world is creating a believable world. That it is cheaper and easier to make buildings out of wood than stone when framing becomes known is a simple fact. Much like urbanization begets specialization or that stone makes good for defensive walls. The human kingdoms and societies have always been ordered and structured similar to societies here. If you want to see what truly different societies with completely different societal structures look like, look at the Charr, Sylvari, and Asura. For something as fundamental as architecture and construction you are going to need a little more difference from Earth societies than “a portion of the population are magic users”.

Similar, but not the same by any means. And you’re right about the Charr, Sylvari, and Asura, but they are the creations of this game, not the last. A general rule to follow: things that were created for GW1 are downplayed, things that were created for GW2 are highly elaborated on. Those 3 races are the new devs’ babies, of course they are going to be way more fleshed out and unique.

Because it’s supposed to be the very image of posh opulence among some of the Krytan nobles? It’s also unique in design in the game looking different from any other locale in game. Given that Beetletun’s growth has been credited to Caudecus evidently, that would lend explanation to some of the other opulent peculiarities there.
Also it’s a chateau, this is a chalet.
The broadest spectrum want a French style 18th century chateau? Couldn’t have guessed that. Must be all those French Revolution RPGs that confused me.
And apparently this is still part of the “generic medieval” complaint still?
The guy has a giant floating sculpture of his head and an over the top and in world completely lavish and unique home. It’s over the top and out of place by design. That’s actually the very concept behind a chateau.
I can only assume then you are equally displeased by all the changes the Charr have undergone then? What with the suddenly being industrialists painted with both gearpunk and Roman terms create their new aesthetic?

Thanks for correcting me, chateau it is. Yes it’s wrong there because it’s pulled right out of our own history with very little changes. That it’s unique to Tyria is irrelevant if it’s not unique to us. It’s trite. And yes, the current Charr portrayal is way out of context, I’ve written volumes of posts on that and I doubt anyone here wants me to go further into it.

The problem is, it’s one thing to create from scratch a mish-mosh look for “ohhhhh, soo unique and clever” appeal but completely different on a scale of difficulty, forethought, and research to evolve that look in a practical and realistic manner. The fact is the building style you keep pointing at going “Krytan!” is just indicative of construction techniques they had. Stone/Earthen walls + thatch roofing != Unique and Innovative Cultural Style.

But they didn’t have to create it from scratch at all, there was a wealth of examples already from the first game. It would have been much easier to extrapolate 250 years later from those foundations. They instead chose to scrap it and make humanity a monoculture, DR districts aside. It’s lazy development, and/or done on purpose to downplay the differences in Tyrian’ human culture.

I can’t really comment much on that except to say that I think when they got to character design there is a lot lacking all over the place. Re: Charr clipping and clothing and hair disappears when you put on a helmet. Given issues like that, I lean on that as more of a “game resources” limitation as opposed to a “game lore” limitation.

Clipping has little to do with style. They just wanted hair to look similar to styles we have now, as opposed to anything that might be indicative of a particular profession or human culture. They valued familiarity over exclusivity.

Bazompora.2635:

The geographical representation is far far more reduced than that, though. And I have to give it the OP, whom I am grateful to for not remaining silent. This “White-washing” essentially makes the game “by White people for White people”.

Obsidian.1328:

That’s not the case with GW2 ANet. Immersion and believability are less important than offering players options. That means letting the players create characters that look however they want within an overall white euro foundation, regardless of it makes any sense to their representative cultures.

Think less immersive and more theme-park.

If only that were the case …

Yet, character creation for humans offers only White facial structures and, apart from the wig-like megafro for men, no curly hair options. The way it’s set up for GW2, Krytans, PC and NPC alike, range from albinistic to melanistic Whites. Instead of being adressed, the Eurocentric imperative is reinforced again and again.

I edited my line for ya.

Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, it doesn’t matter really. The point is that they were designing modern Kryta with a “real-world” standard in mind, as opposed to something that was thematically more representative to Guild Wars Tyrian Kryta. The evolution of Krytan culture over 250 years shouldn’t make things more “Earth-like”, it should just make it more advanced in a Krytan way.

Look at Caudecus’s Manor, it looks like it’s some historic chalet right out of the French countryside for christ’s sake. What is that style doing there? What is it doing there? The answer is sentimentality and identity. GW2 ANet uses real-world imagery and themes to make the game-world more readily acceptable to the player base. It’s a simple marketing device used to appeal to the broadest spectrum of our society. They could care less about what it means for something to be intrinsically “Krytan” or whatever. They just want broad appeal, and having a generic, planet-Earth, renaissance(changed it for you) look with a white populace does that.

It’s the same thing with the hairstyles that I brought up in a different post. They aren’t particular to any specific Tyrian culture, they are specific to trendy hairstyles we have on Earth.

Forzani.2584:

Prysin.8542:

…………..

1.Please keep the modes APART.

2. If you refuse to play the class as intended by the developers, then you will not be successful. .

Two statements that should be stamped on the forehead of every Ranger new or old

You’re right. But I refuse to play a class as intended that is designed without reason and common sense. ANet’s fault, not the players.

Lostwingman.5034:

Yea, that’s “classic” Krytan, but why shouldn’t the architecture have evolved at all?

It should evolve. But in its own Krytan way, and not some amalgamated puzzle of random fantasy images

Also I think I identified what the more modern common buildings are modeled after, Ottoman/Balkan houses. Most of the more recent individual and commoner buildings fit a very practical “stone base and lighter construction upper section” design. Additionally, I think Fort Salma is different because it is older than DR. I think where the people who feel off about DR get that feeling from is from the towers and parapets that visually stand out the most on the city walls. Although even then the very numerous styles can be pointed at all over the world. I get the feeling DR was built originally without those many parapets and sections and that they’ve mostly been added on over the years. Just my guessing on the matter though.

I think ANet just wanted a classic midieval fantasy look for DR and Kryta, you might be reading too much into it. What evidence do you have that they were going for something uniquely Krytan? I mean, all of the structures in WvW have the same look…it’s the generic fantasy look.

On demographics, the Charr invasion into Ascalon even after the Searing took many years, it was 20 years between the Searing and the Foefire. I wouldn’t think most people would choose to stay behind but honestly we’ll never know (until the devs decide to give us information). I still think pre-searing that Ascalon was likely far more densely populated than Kryta given its many cities and that it is plausible that many civilians simply fled South before eventually heading towards the nearest stable Human kingdom. Like I said, I think about the biggest strangeness is that I think DR should be more dense in general. At the same time, the majority of Krytans now live more temperate North of Salma as opposed to the balmy South. I wonder if that factored into anything at all.

Meh, that’s assuming regular Ascalons would rather flee than fight, but that’s another argument. Also, north Kryta was just as balmy as south. If you run along Kryta’s Giant’s Basin coast in GW1, there is no difference in clime or culture.

On a related note, why are there dark-skinned options for Norn? If we’re to buy in to the Norn culture at all, you kinda have to admit they should be a light-skinned people…as are any who live in snowy mountains. In Nightfall, it would have been equally odd to have had pasty-white commoners strolling about Elona. You didn’t see that there because it was important for ANet back then for you to buy into the culture they are portraying to you. That’s not the case with GW2 ANet. Immersion and believability are less important than offering players options. That means letting the players create characters that look however they want, regardless of it makes any sense to their representative cultures.

Think less immersive and more theme-park.

Lostwingman

I’m an architecture buff too, but modern Krytan structures resemble a hodge-podge styles with a strong “northern European” theme strewn throughout it. You’re missing the point when you try to categorize it all into real-life representations. Old Krytan architecture, while mildly reminiscent of Mediterranean flavor, was still a unique style unto the world of Tyria. Just about every old human culture drew from RL inspirations, but they also enjoyed a rather large amount of original ideas. Those ideas were what really made them what they are.

What ANet has done with modern Kryta is not only removed that old Tyrian uniqueness, but combined it with some RL styles that have no precedent in Kryta. Yes, the sections of DR show some distinctness to those old cultures. But the point is DR itself shouldn’t look the way it does, nor should its people. Regardless of this supposed “infusion” of lighter-skinned Ascalonians(there weren’t that many that left Ascalon anyway), the typical Krytan would have the skin tone of a Spaniard. Fort Salma is fairly close to what I would consider a natural architectural progression for Kryta after 250 years. But honestly, THIS is what people should picture when thinking of classic Krytan. And with only a small contingent of Ascalons around, and almost no Elonians and Canthas in the mix, 250 years should have changed little of Krytan culture.

Velijan.9061:

None of that cultural history has disappeared though. There are people of Elonian and Canthan descent running around Kryta right now. DR even has an Elonian district, and it was supposed to have a Canthan one too. It isn’t a purely racial thing.

Not disappeared, but severely reduced to the point of insignificance. They made Divinity’s Reach into a mostly white city with little ethnic barrio sections as a nod to GW1. They got rid of the Canthan district because ANet was afraid it might offend Asian players to have an “eastern” district inside a “western” city…which ironically is entirely their own fault.

I think the reason Kryta went from having a distinctive, unique character in general to being Generic Medieval Fantasy Land is more simple and more about marketing. GW2 is a product meant to have broad, international appeal, which means homogenization. Investors want it to look like other successful fantasy RPGs because they think that will make people more likely to buy it. It’s the “safe bet.” It’s the same reason most mass-market cars look nearly identical. Deviating from the norm in any way is a “risk” that must be assessed. Even if the people playing the game aren’t necessarily white, the expectation is still that the game have a white-majority populace living in a giant RenFair.

Totally agree.

Somewhere along the way ANet sold out to mass appeal. It’s depressing.

It’s because GW2 ANet wants you to see the cultural diversity of this game in the Charr, Norn, Asura, Sylvari, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc. and not in the human cultures.

They want you to set aside the intra-human cultural distinctions of GW1 because it would be unfair to the new playable races that humans have such a rich history.

They are trying to create an entirely new cultural fabric of Tyria where “species” are important, not “ethnicity”, because this is what they want GW2 Tyria to be now.

They own the rights to the game and can do whatever the heck they want. And they want cats, rats, plants, giant humans, bears, hawks, manatees, etc.

Krytans are white because they think it’s a neutral(and safe) tone.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Problem is that trait is very inaccessible for dps builds and therefore not worth it. And ive never liked that necro has high cooldowns for aoe burst. I would like some more sustained aoe. A slightly weaker lower cooldown well would be nice. But we are getting offtopic. xD

Yeah true.

Wells seem like they were made for power necros, yet the traits for them are not in Spite nor Soul Reaping. Reminds me of my Ranger traits…sad panda.

I still think the Well of Power idea is solid though.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Obsidian.1328:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Id like to see a new dps well with no additional effects other than damage and a low cooldown (20 seconds).

Doesn’t Well of Suffering kind of already do that?

Well of suffering is on a 35 second cooldown and applies vulnerability. Im talking about a low cooldown pure dps well. It wouldnt have vuln or any additional effects so a lower cooldown wouldnt be overpowered. Either that or I would like another reduction to well cooldowns.

Well yeah. Traited it’s only 28 secs though which is pretty good considering it’s a well, I don’t think they are supposed to be spammable. The vuln simply lets it hit a little harder, kind of slightly magnifying it’s own damage.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Id like to see a new dps well with no additional effects other than damage and a low cooldown (20 seconds).

Doesn’t Well of Suffering kind of already do that?

In regards to stability. I feel like well of power should tick stability for caster and allies in the well for the full duration.

^ This. The measly 1 second of stabo it gives is kind of pointless. It should just tick per pulse. Heck, take the duration down to 4 seconds if you have too lol.

Xenon.4537:

Where was it actually confirmed that the reason the Canthan district got removed was NCSoft/China/Korea were offended by it? That’s been the commonly held belief, but I don’t think I’ve actually seen an official source cited. I’ve also heard that the reason it was scrapped was that it was simply “poorly implemented” which could mean any number of things.

Here was something I found about it. Didn’t read it all, but it pertains to the thread.

Eosaujii.5713:

-In WvW, standing on a wall spamming your superior ac down on the zerg below you, only to have the ac disappear (health = 0) just as you press the 3 key… and you happen to have your Greatsword equipped!

Yes, you do fly serenely out into the middle of the zerg, and the zerg pauses to laugh at you!…..

Done this a dozen times at least.

Loubbo.9852:

-Wondered why you have no true condition application weapon without some extra circumstances tied to your AA like every other class does.

Never understood this one either.

How to beat a shortbow ranger? Run directly at him/her and calmly stab him/her to death.

Sanctuary Runes synergize pretty well with necros. It’s not the best alternative, but it’s saved me more than a few times. /shrug

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I vote Logan x Rytlock.

Perfection.

=D

:/

No need for all that. I see where I misread too.

Titus

The OP’s question relates directly to the past situation, so there’s little quandary in talking about…you know…past events.

As such, I’m adding what was true to the time it was written. ANet does not happen to manage this perfectly well on their own, which is why we have oodles of threads about lore questions in the first place. What I’m doing is adding contextual clarity, not confusion.

If that bothers you, I suggest you don’t read my posts.

Titus.4285:

Except this isn’t true, at all. Most Ascalonians fled from their homes in 1070-1072 AE, after the Charr had invaded so-to-speak all of Ascalon. Only a very small bastion remained together with “mad king Adelbern”.

You do need to remember that what you see in GW1 post-searing is always the Ascalon anno 1072 AE. At the end of the game (1080 AE), the humans retreated even more, leaving only a small minority of human presence in Ascalon.

The Charr invasion of Ascalon (“by force of arms”) succeded. They invaded and destroyed the lands in 1070-1072 AE, and by 1080 AE they had a far larger presence there than the humans did. In fact, the Charr won in your terms of “force of arms”.

That’s not true. It could be just as easily be argued that a very small part of the Ascalonian population departed with Rurik. Do you have evidence that says different?

And your “at the end of the game” is not true. Guild Wars, the story, ended with Abaddon’s death. Guild Wars 2, the story, started with EotN onward. That it used the same game platform is irrelevant, the dye had already been cast. The retreat to Ebonhawke is not part of the original GW lore, just like Adelbern going nuts isn’t.

Traveller.7496:

This has probably been here before, but it’s still funny. Apparently “they” don’t think Cantha was beautiful. Or has it been completely removed from Guild Wars 2 lore?

Keep in mind that most top devs, like Ree and Jeff, were involved in Elona and especially Tyria(through EotN), and had almost nothing to do with Cantha. They have little attachment to it.

With the way they’ve handled Tyria, at this point I’d rather them not touch Cantha.

I doubt anyone would recognize it.

Supreme.4051:

mrauls.6519:

We could always store the magical energy in something we could control

Before the human gods came, and the last time the dragons awoke, magic was stored in the bloodstone.

Then the human gods came, looted the bloodstone, abused it to give magic to their own creations (supposedly) humans. Then war broke out and the human gods decided it wasn’t such a good idea to leave such power in the hands of humans. So they broke the bloodstone in 5 pieces and sealed it with the blood of king Doric. Unfortunately, they tossed the pieces in a volcano in the Ring of Fire islands. After some time the volcano erupted, shooting the bloodstone pieces over Tyria, their contained magic slowly seeping back into the world.

That’s it guys, blame the human gods for making the dragons awaken again. They probably saw this coming and quickly left Tyria for a better place. “Oops teh durguns r gonna awakes now, better leave for our summer lodge in the mists cuz they gonna burn our cribz, bb guysies”

They were the gods of every race, not just humans. Similarly, every race abused the unrestrained magic of the Bloodstones, not just humans.

It’s the measly 1 stack that is weird. Something like that should be a 2-4 stack trigger.

I thought it odd that this trait(Spite 25) was rather weak. 1 stack of might for 5 seconds at the 25% health threshhold seems rather lacking for a 25-point trait. Granted there’s no cooldown, but you’d have to do a dicey little dance to hover around 25% health constantly.

The best I ever saw was…

“The Scarlet Variety Show featuring Zhaitan!”

CET

Lol, Charr hide armor doesn’t indict humanity, unless you want to indict them for collecting pieces of every other mob in the game and using them for some armor recipe. Should humans feel bad for all those Tengu they killed to get feathers to use in armor as well? Are you going to be equally up-in-arms about this tragedy in the Tengu forums when they become a playable race? It’s common sense that the Charr hide argument is just plain silly.

You haven’t answered any of my questions as far as I know. Tell me the cited date the Charr first arrived in Ascalon. Same with the naming of it. You can’t because it’s not there, yet you claim it as a something we all know. Or something.

I suppose I would have laughed at your sarcasm if it was better implemented. Timing is everything in comedy, you should have played that card further down the line and not right out of the gate.

Also, if you wouldn’t bow out of your arguments every time they get rolling, peeps might give you more credit. Stay in it for the long haul bud, you sound way more credible when actually stick around to defend your points. Just friendly advise.

…

That doesn’t answer the question at all lol.

CET

Cute drawing.

Your arguments, while needlessly antagonistic, have a few unknowns you take for fact.

So, when did the Charr arrive in Ascalon in the first place then? Dealing with the Forgotten doesn’t help your argument since they didn’t even retreat to the Crystal Desert until 174AE, almost 300 years after humans got to Ascalon. It doesn’t matter that much though.

Actually the name Ascalon was never specified to come from humans, it was assumed to be.

Your moral parity I have no idea where you get. Where, in the history of Tyria, did the humans do atrocious things to the Charr? And try to answer this without the same old “Charr hide” argument over and over…the Charr were a mob back then like anything else, and as such dropped mats to make stuff. It was a game mechanic.

Permanent pet.

I was waiting for that lol.

CETheLucid.3964:

Charr traditionally simply identify based on territory established proper.

What does that mean?

I’ll put in my 2 cents.

• Not sure why the Charr Hide armor makes any difference, the GW1 Charr were meant to be seen like any other mob. I never heard anyone lament those poor Destroyers for us using their smoldering hides for gauntlets. :P

• Yes the Charr were there beforehand, but no one even knows how long before 100BE, or even if it was uncontested that whole time. They certainly didn’t bother to name it, and there’s zero mention of them building anything, or even settling the area.(I wouldn’t be surprised if ANet writes in something like, “Humans stole the name Ascalon from the Charr” lol)

• Historically, Charr were the better fighters, and humans were better with magic. Playing the actual GW1 game, they are equal at both…since, you know, it’s a game and the mechanics have to match up. Always be mindful not to confuse game mechanics with lore.

• Adelbern is a mixed bag. Most hate him because he was a prik to his son, and has kitten ed his fellow citizens to eternal undead. Some think he’s a hero. The Foefire was merely ANet’s way of debasing his character to further vindicate the Charr presence in Ascalon. The GW1 Adelbern was stubborn and a bad father…the genocidal maniac Adelbern is a GW2 creation. It’s important to make that distinction. But even so, the Foefire itself is not a horrible act considering gruesome annihilation was the alternative(Charr were notorious for torturing prisoners before killing them). I mean, if I had the chance to suicide myself to keep my enemy out of my home forever…I’d do it.

• The “ancestral homeland” thing is a recent edit, as has been discussed in this very thread. There’s never any mention of that before 2012, which makes it a “GW2” thing. Everything even remotely related to this in GW1 points to the area NE of the Ascalon Basin as the Charr homelands. It was assumed by everyone(including the writers) that the Basin was simply considered Charr territory before humanity’s arrival, much like Italy was considered the Roman’s homeland…and not the second you pass Hadrian’s Wall. This whole thing is simply ANet taking advantage of something not specified in GW1 lore to bestow legitimacy on GW2 Charr in Ascalon, nothing more really.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Obsidian.1328:

I didn’t say it wasn’t their territory.

I misunderstood that you were implying Ascalon wasn’t part of the Charr homeland.

It wasn’t.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Obsidian.1328:

Nah, that was retconned.

From reading their wiki article I don’t see it not stating they owned Ascalon in fact it states because of the humans with the aid of their gods forced the Charr to surrender the southern lands of their territory..

I didn’t say it wasn’t their territory.

DaGhostDS.9738:

Ascalon is the true homeland of the Char

Nah, that was retconned.

Short answer: nope.

silvermember.8941:

Good for you buddy, but i was talking about things you enjoyed and had a big emotional impact.

Well yeah, there are those too. But they didn’t have anything to do with just being a long time ago. Meaning, the level of nostalgia is not directly proportional to the amount of time passed.

silvermember.8941:

Finally, it is always amusing seeing player idealize Everquest and see them bemoan how current MMORPG lack the soul of the EQ without ever trying to figure why that is. They complain how modern MMO don’t seem to capture EQ and blah blah blah. Let me tell you, the reason why no MMORPG can stand up to EQ is probably because people tend to idealize the past and they expect a other MMO to recapture an idealization (same reason why older folks love to idealize the 50s). Nothing will ever beat the first time you experience something you enjoy.

Wow, speak for yourself man. I remember my first time in bed with a woman. She was about as much fun as log in a forest.

Old folks like the 50’s because it reminds them of their youth. You know…when they could do whatever they want and not have a care in the world? Kinda like a lot of us here? It has little to do with being the “first” experience of their lives.

Escadin.9482:

If that’s really the definition of MMORPG than this genre ought to die. Remember when MMORPG were RPG that were all about the immersion of playing a character/person with powers you can’t archieve IRL, just for the sake of it plus awesome adventures- but with thousands of other people who populate your world? Me neither. For some reason every single mmorpg there is got lost somewhere down the road and focuses on gear and stats / spreadsheet based combat now. However that doesn’t change my defintion of MMORPGs which doesn’t involve those things at all. VP is a degenerated feature which merely mutated to the most important aspect of MMORPGs because the last time somebody dared innovation was back when the first everquest mmo was released…

Bingo.

Game companies relish VP because it’s a superb way to monetize the game, not because it’s part of an MMO’s DNA or something. It’s just been this way so long we all assume it has to be in there.

kokiman.2364:

Makes me wonder what Jeff and Ree are doing, are they still working for A.Net?

Uhh…they still call the shots bud. :/

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

Cannon

And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?

If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.

And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.

Bubbles

That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.

Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.

Because you never asked a question? Just wanted to make a couple snarky one liners and not actually be called on it.

Apparently you define a casual as someone who has an inordinate amount of time to spend in game and is obsessively goal oriented , while a hardcore is someone who doesn’t and isn’t. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions. If your idea of EvE as HP is any indication, perhaps from there?

Sure I did, I asked you to name an mmorpg without a skillbar. If you wanted to just make snarky one-liners, that’s alright I guess. But I still get to call you out on it.

When did I say a casual is goal-oriented? I hate to tell you this, but leveling isn’t any more goal-oriented than a birthday is. There’s no challenge or skill involved in leveling or grinding for gear, it’s a rat race. You probably think getting 20k Achievement points is a goal-oriented activity, no? Also, a high time-investment doesn’t necessarily exclude a casual, there are plenty of casuals who spend eons of time in GW2. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions either.

Cannon

And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?

If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.

And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.

Bubbles

That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.

Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

And thanks for your invaluable rhetoric. Like I said, if you think vertical progression is inherent to mmorpg’s I can’t really help you. Vertical progression is a common theme in modern mmo’s, but that’s not what you asked. EVEonline comes to mind, and most sandbox games aim for horizontal, but that’s still beside the point.

What defines an mmo is exactly that: massively multiplayer online dot dot dot. VP is merely taking advantage of the human mind’s instinctive urge to advance. It doesn’t matter if it’s B.S. or fake, it makes many feel all warm and fuzzy inside to hear that “ding” or don that next-tier helm. It’s a psychological trick that’s inherent to loads of products across many marketing demographics.

So, no, it’s not any more inherent to MMO’s as nicotine is to your neurons. It’s an addiction.

Sigh.

Sand box mmorpg’s are the epitome of vertical progression systems. The people who play the most are the most powerful. EvE is a fine example of this. A skill based vertical progression system.

Thanks for bringing it back to my original statement as well. MMO means massive amounts of players.
How do you get players to play? Carrots.
Who chases carrots more than anyone else? Hardcores, elitists, min maxers, grinders etc etc
Who populates the worlds to make them massive in the first place? Non casuals.
Who are MMOrpgs targeted at? People who will play a lot, or in GW2’s case, people who will also buy gold to shortcut the grind.

Thanks

Sigh

You think Eve is a vertical progression game? Yikes.

The fact that you think carrots is the way you get players to play just says you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Who chases carrots? casuals, achievement-hounds, farmers, and, yes, grinders.
Who populates these MMO’s nowadays? casuals mostly
Who are MMOrpg’s targeted at? casuals with money.

You need to learn your gamers.
Hard-cores are really just intense players; both in time investment and difficulty.
Elitists are simply the best hard-core gamers that like to flaunt it.
Min-maxers couldn’t give two poops about vertical progression, they just want the best stat combinations.

Your logic is flawed because you think that just because something is present in most games, then it must be intrinsic to it. That’s like saying since everyone sleeps during the night, sleeping must be inherent to nighttime. GG

And no, MMO doesn’t just mean massive amounts of players. Only the first “M” means that.

Thanks.

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

And thanks for your invaluable rhetoric. Like I said, if you think vertical progression is inherent to mmorpg’s I can’t really help you. Vertical progression is a common theme in modern mmo’s, but that’s not what you asked. EVEonline comes to mind, and most sandbox games aim for horizontal, but that’s still beside the point.

What defines an mmo is exactly that: massively multiplayer online dot dot dot. VP is merely taking advantage of the human mind’s instinctive urge to advance. It doesn’t matter if it’s B.S. or fake, it makes many feel all warm and fuzzy inside to hear that “ding” or don that next-tier helm. It’s a psychological trick that’s inherent to loads of products across many marketing demographics.

So, no, it’s not any more inherent to MMO’s as nicotine is to your neurons. It’s an addiction.

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

MistaMike.7356:

Levelling from 1-80 is vertical progression, how come you’re OK with that?

A lot of players(mostly gone now) are not ok with the leveling in GW2. It would have been a better game(and sequel for that matter) without levels at all.

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.