Guild Wars 2

They’ve needed an optional action bar since before forever. No idea why they won’t implement one in a game with particle effects out the wazoo.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I don’t know if it is a hoax per se. But something is definitely wrong if I can’t find him in official credits. One source doesn’t make any sense considering the Internet existed then.

/shrug

I don’t know what to tell you. If you’re looking at the GW wiki credits page, well it’s probably as simple as being current. To take a queue from the Constitution, the wiki is a living, breathing document. It’s not hard to believe the credits include only those who were around during GW’s last endeavor: EotN.

Here’s some other random, non-ANet, sources I found on the interwebz from 5 minutes of searching:

• IGN’05
• IGN’08
• Wordpress’11
• GWguru’05

That last one isn’t so much a source as a nod to him in the unofficial forums. No idea why his name is kinda clouded in mist, seems odd to me too.

Also, thanks a bunch for reviving this thread dude…it took Kalavier and I weeks to come to an unsteady truce. :-/

Kalavier.1097:

Really? Because as I recall, it was the WALL that gave the Charr trouble, not the actual Ascalonian army. The searing broke the wall. And frankly, their reasoning was never, EVER given in Prophecies. We had no motivation, no driving force, we knew nothing about the charr other then “They attacked.”

The Ascalon army gave them trouble right up until the Titans assumed leadership of Charr and united them, for the simple fact that the Northlands had been successfully defended from the Charr for a thousand years. The gods themselves are the initial reason the humans were able to defeat the Charr horde in Ascalon, they helped them settle it. After that, the Charr were divided and fought among themselves. It wasn’t until the clans united, under the Titan’s leadership centuries later, that they were able to push back the Ascalon army to the wall.

That much is pretty certain.

The only reasons we’re given as to why the Charr wanted to decimate humanity, before Nightfall, EotN, and GW2 development, is three-fold:

• Domination. The Charr had always been known to fight anything that got in their way, including Grawl, Dwarves, Forgotten, and Humans. They lived to fight.
• Revenge. The Charr never forgot getting beat by humans a thousand years ago, particularly that hey had gods helping them. That was the initial reason they turned to the Titans as their “gods” because they thought they needed them to win. Abaddon being behind it was written in a year later during Nightfall development, Prophecies actually wasn’t written with him in mind at all.
• Prophecy. The Flameseeker Prophecies are the driving force behind the narrative. The Charr, and particularly the Searing and Cataclysm, are integral to that prophecy. They are the catalyst to the whole storyline, without which none of it would have happened. You could logically argue that Glint knew Orr was doomed, but did nothing about it because she too is woven into the prophecy and knew that she couldn’t interfere with it lest she risk all of Tyria under the heel of the Titans.

After/during Nightfall, the narrative shifts and we get the beginnings of what we have today.

I’m saying I’ve seen actual evidence that Ascalon at least ‘won’ or pushed back the charr for a brief while, so sure. I’ll accept it as that. The charr were pushed back, then returned south with a second wave.

We could’ve killed the king of all charr in ascalon. Or we could’ve killed a Rurik-style general who took an army south while the rest stayed home.

I can agree to that. :-)

Kalavier.1097:

Yes… because common sense saying that a lush area turned wasteland is less likely to prosper or survive then a nation that received zero drastic enviromental shifts.

Yes…because that’s not even what I’m talking about…

Not many, given how they never have been mentioned? Hell, Ebonhawke sounds like it was long deserted or destroyed when the Ebon Vanguard found it. I’m sure they had some towns yes, but probably not to the scale of Ascalon city or Rin. We know that overall, Ascalon was ruined.

Probably a lot actually, the bulk of the kingdom was south of the Wall. Just like Kryta and Deldrimor had more stuff “than you can physically see or visit” so it was with Ascalon. The outposts and towns you see on the map are not representative of actual numbers.

what?

google it. Yay!

The charr armies in Ascalon, yes. That viewpoint is very immature way to debate. I’m not “auto spawning”. It’s more likely for the invaders to be able to reinforce their numbers from an untouched homeland then a ruined nation that has been turned into a wasteland to reinforce their armies.

There is no bias in saying “Hey, the invaders whose home base was never even damaged, much less their home population severely culled, would be more likely to bring forth a fresh army sooner then defenders who have been greatly weakened!” It’s not bias when explicitly Ascalon’s forces were left greatly weakened by the end of prophecies.

In Ascalon, not in their homelands. Or are you trying to say the Charr literally spent their ENTIRE strength military-wise in the events of prophecies, down to the last charr?

YES! Or at least most of them. How else could you simultaneously attack 3 large kingdoms at the same time when you couldn’t even beat 1 years ago? They had been gearing up for this for decades, maybe centuries. They wanted all humans dead, and they were going to die trying. That’s their goal in life, their schtick, their raison d’etre.

At least that’s how they were written back then, now they are the race players choose if they like steampunk or cats.

And a chunk of your arguments boil down to “We didn’t see it, therefore this happened exactly as I envision it.”

Yes, Ascalon won the war, but you know what I would’ve done/said if I was an Ascalonian warmaster after the war ended?

“Adelbern, we must rebuild our armies and defenses immediately. We do not know how beaten the charr are, if we killed their top leaders or merely a war general on the field. We don’t know their motives besides wanting us dead, so another invasion is probable. You need to abandon your hatred of Kryta and others, and get help now, before the Charr return.”

Because nothing, NOTHING in prophecies says what tier of leaders we kill. We know they come from another region, so did we kill the ‘kings’ of the charr? Or simply a general in charge of this force?

Wait…so now you’re agreeing they won the war?

Rednik.3809:

Whole settlement thing was part of “no signs of Charr was found”, not argumentation about some mythical great stone-made Charr cities.

No idea where you’re going with this, what “signs” were you looking for? They actually built stone temples during their occupation of the Northlands, you can go see them yourself: Diessa Lowlands and Flame Temple Corridor. I’m sure stone pyramids would survive a long time, why weren’t any of those around pre-Searing?

And Charr was all about extermination of humans in first war? That would be great Ascalonian propaganda feat, for sure, “we righteously conquered those lands from Evil Beasts before they did Evil Extermination!”, but sadly, you pulled this out of thin air. Charr ruthlessness in second war was a direct result of human actions in first war, when all Ascalon Charr population vanished.

Umm…yes? That’s what the Charr did, they fought with anyone they met. Met the Forgotten, went to war with ‘em. Found Dwarves, went to war. Saw Grawl, waged war.
Humans walked into their territory…you guessed it, waged war. Only this time they got beat because the humans had their gods helpin’. The reason the Charr tried to rolf-stomp all of humanity in 1070 wasn’t because the humans were living in a piece of their old territory that they named and build a civilization on. It was because they were the first ones to beat them and they wanted revenge. If all they wanted back was their land, they would have stopped after the Searing and settled it. But that’s not what happened is it? They tried to eradicate humans off the face of Tyria.

Why? Because of their pride.

Kalavier.1097:

And I feel like EOTN connects fine to either lore setting, but I link it to GW1. You’ll have to agree to disagree, but either viewpoint doesn’t disqualify our opinions. EOTN is canon. denying the events there around Ascalon is cherry-picking.

If by cherry-picking you mean critical thinking, then yes I’m guilty. If you want to white-knight ANet simply because they hold the keys to the kingdom, that’s your problem not mine. I won’t agree to disagree if you won’t try and use common sense.

You seem to fail to understand the point. The charr were invading. We have no idea their homeland. It is rational to think that maybe they had more forces. Hell, we didn’t have a clue in prophecies if we killed off the equivalent to a field general, or the leaders of all charr everywhere!

And we have no idea of Ascalon’s full homeland either. How many other cities do you think Ascalon could have had that were off the map?

RL comparision. This is like me saying “America sends a fresh group of soldiers to Europe to aid in the fighting.” And you going “Well, Hilter then pulls out a brand new, fresh, reserve army that he didn’t use ever before!”

Unternehmen Wacht am Rhein.

You are assuming Ascalon has reserves when the lore explicitly states their armies were weakened. And as the canon events apparently turned out, the Charr DID bring down a new army, and Ascalon did NOT have reserve units of great number (If any, because that’d imply Adelbern purposefully held back Ascalon soldiers from the front line and had them out of combat).

As were the Charr armies weakened. Again, if you get to auto-spawn Charr reserves, so do I.

Because the charr have a homeland that was untouched by the war, and for all we know may not have sent their full strength south? And the fact that Ascalon wouldn’t have untouched, fresh and ready for combat reserves just sitting around doing nothing.

Again, if you get to auto-spawn Charr reserves, so do I.

There is no bias in saying “Hey, the invaders whose home base was never even damaged, much less their home population severely culled, would be more likely to bring forth a fresh army sooner then defenders who have been greatly weakened!” It’s not bias when explicitly Ascalon’s forces were left greatly weakened by the end of prophecies.

So were the Charr.

Only, factually according to what I’ve seen… the Charr did bring forth a new army. Ascalon is stated explicitly to have been weakened.

Same as above.

Nothing I see says they did. Mhenlo’s statement implies at least a short period of peace. Since that line would (timeline wise) come shortly after end of prophecies, maybe that hopeful peace lasted shorter then Mhenlo liked.

Maybe the Ebon Vanguard (the Ascalon Vanguard originally) sent north triggered renewed attacks from the charr southward by their raids.

…except there’s nothing in GW2 that says the Charr ever got pushed out of the Ascalon Basin. Nor how the war was over according to Ermenred. So they ignored both.

The Ebon Vanguard itself is proof of how easy it is to “write-in” more troops. Most of its former Ascalan Vanguard troops went with Rurik west. Yet they still had enough troops for a small army to march north. Where did all these troops come from? I thought Ascalon was on the brink!! Poof…“human refugees, exiles, and escaped prisoners” that’s where. The pencil is mightier than the sword. (cuz anet censors won’t let me write “pen” and “is” in the same sentence…)
______________________________________________

You really need to stop trying to justify GW2 writing by using some sort of RL supply and transportation analysis of a video game. My point is it could have gone either way given the right writing. Heck, they could have made the Centaurs take over Kryta had they wanted…and they could have made it seem legit too. They could have done anything they wanted to too…which is exactly what they did.

The fact is, according to the original writing, Ascalon was supposed to have won the war. Aside from the few NPC quotes which say so, the clues and allusions in the game itself are entirely self-evident. I can’t teach narrative analysis, so I guess you’re on your own on this one. That the author(s) both never definitively said so, nor ever revisited Ascalon in any “victors” scenario, is the precise reason ANet was able to do what they did with the narrative.

They didn’t capitalize on any ambivalence, there wasn’t really any to begin with. They created the ambivalence themselves, milked it into plausible deniability, and then finally wrote not only a different ending…but based a new playable race’s history and culture largely on that new ending.

Rednik.3809:

And yet Ascalon expansion to north was a fact. Placing a new capital beyond the Wall was clearest sign of it.

Er…you’re right, I already agreed with you. A different person was arguing that with you.

Ruins are not part of that topic. Wood and hides wont make ruins.
Based on absence of EVERYTHING charr. You even can find lots of grawl in pre-Searing Ascalon, and yet all charr are gone.

Umm…you’re arguing that there’s no evidence left of possible Charr settlements in Ascalon, because wood and hides won’t make ruins. Dot dot dot.
There’s grawl there still because the grawl, unlike the Charr, didn’t make it their mission in life to exterminate humans. Not to mention they didn’t/don’t have anything resembling armies, they are meant to be portrayed as a local countryside danger, not as an invasion force. Humans don’t go to war over anything remotely harmful that’s inside their borders, that’s the Charr remember?

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

That’s because the Charr didn’t have any settlements in Ascalon, silly man. They were mostly nomadic in GW1, modeled roughly after RL Mongolians. They “owned” a whole lot more territory than they actually lived in.

This is not an answer. Even nomads have settlements, temporary ones, but still. “B-but they are nomads” doesn’t explain complete absence of charr on Ascalon territory.

Yes, it does. GW1 creators had ruins all over the place for older tribes and civilizations, they knew who used to live where. Ascalon had none.

Also, arguing a case for genocide based solely on the absence of settlements is hardly a sound argument.

~Correction: it could be argued the Catacombs were not Ascalonian in origin, but they certainly weren’t Charr either.

Rednik.3809:

Muchacho.2390:

Ehh? I dont recall the humans trying to expand beyond the wall. If i remember correctly from gw1 they were rather content with the area they already had. The only expansions beyond the wall were scouting missions due the fear of a charr inversion.

And as if the charr were anymore willing to negotiate. They killed/enslaved any human on sight.

I think it is pretty clear that the charr were the aggressors in gw1 not the humans.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Great_Northern_Wall
The Great Northern Wall, referred to as Northern Wall, the Great Wall, and the Wall for short, began construction in 898 AE; it stretches from the Shiverpeak Mountains in the west, to the Eastern Frontier. It was built before the start of the latest Guild Wars, when the Charr threat began to appear imminent once again. The Wall was erected to protect the bulk of the Ascalon kingdom. However, over time the Ascalonians began expanding north beyond the Wall, establishing cities not protected by the Wall, including Surmia, Nolani, and Drascir, which became the capital until it fell during the Charr invasion.

You’re right about Ascalons living north of the wall, but you’re assuming that the Charr were always there too…which wasn’t the case. Just like the Charr had swathes of land that they didn’t necessarily live in, the Ascalon lands in the north Basin were sparsely settled. But that didn’t mean Charr were there, it still was part of the Ascalon kingdom. The humans drove them out of the whole Basin almost 1200 years before the Searing, and they didn’t come back until right before the Searing.

I also wouldn’t trust the wiki too much. GW1 wiki said the Wall took less the 200 years to build, the GW2 wiki says 900. Odd.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

Huh? Ascalonians never inflicted genocide on the Charr, I don’t know where you get that. They pushed them out of the Basin via warfare, then left them alone.

Have you seen a single charr tribe, settlement or even a specimen in Ascalon? Or every single member of tribes living here was hostile and decided to migrate or suicide? “Pushed out”, uh-huh.

That’s because the Charr didn’t have any settlements in Ascalon, silly man. They were mostly nomadic in GW1, modeled roughly after RL Mongolians. They “owned” a whole lot more territory than they actually lived in.

Kalavier.1097:

Rednik.3809:

Muchacho.2390:

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

But its still was charr land, and humans took it and completely genocide charr who lived there. So ruthless retaliation (especially against Ascalon) was pretty expected.

“We’ll just kick everybody else out, then throw a fit when they come back angry and with a vengeance.”

Said no Ascalonian ever.

Rednik.3809:

Muchacho.2390:

Expected yes but not justified. The humans that got their land taken from the charr werent the ones that that took it from the charr long time ago. By the time the searing happend it was already human land and not charr land anymore.

Also a genocide in the past doesnt justify a genocide in the present.

Ascalon was already expanding to north, beyond Wall, becoming stronger with each new settlement and not showing any will to negotiate with charr. I guess it was pretty clear what charr could expect from that.

Huh?? When did the Charr ever want to negotiate anything with humans(or any other race for that matter) in a thousand years? You’re just throwing out random fallacies at this point.

Rednik.3809:

Muchacho.2390:

Acsalon was never charr homeland. I dont see how one conquerer is more justified then another. Infact both the humans and charr dont really have a justified claim. Both just took it by force. The humans once and the charr even twice.

But its still was charr land, and humans took it and completely genocide charr who lived there. So ruthless retaliation (especially against Ascalon) was pretty expected.

Huh? Ascalonians never inflicted genocide on the Charr, I don’t know where you get that. They pushed them out of the Basin via warfare, then left them alone.

Kalavier.1097:

EOTN is gw1. You could argue Beyond is kinda “1.5” (as a friend who played all of GW1 content said when I asked him about it). I’m Cherry picking because I include nearly everything in the GW1 game? Interesting. How is Factions a “logical” second installment to Prophecies? How was Nightfall a “logical” third chapter? Until toward the end of nightfall, the events were all unrelated. Then Abbaddon was revealed to have masterminded a lot of this stuff. Since you don’t work at Anet, don’t talk to the writing team/original writer (as far as I can tell), what makes you able to concretely state EOTN is only considered part of GW2?

Wow. Factions and Nightfall were created to serve the GW1 foundational narrative set by Prophecies, not to serve an entirely new game. You can’t say that for EotN…it’s narrative purpose was to introduce the GW2 story. I never said anything about it’s gameplay mechanics or time-frame being GW2 material. You really don’t need more than a rudimentary understanding of fiction writing to get that.

I saw no implication within prophecies itself. And it would’ve been EASY to do. Add a bit in Titan source about going back to the warmaster. Then he informs you that his scouts (and other scouts across ascalon) are noticing the charr actually pulling back north.

Again, since GW1 Anet never went back to add anything to Proph, the implication is in whatever happened at the end combined with anything said about it from future campaigns. Which it did.

Compare the statements.

A: Charr may bring in a fresh, second force from their homelands in the north.
B: Adelbern will bring up reserve ascalon army units from the south end of the country that have spent two years doing nothing (Or in your example, two entire years dealing with ‘stragglers’).

Makes sense to me. Again, you’re still assuming the Charr had reserves. If you can do that, so can I. And I, like you, can make up whatever reason in the wide, wide, world of sports that could make that true.

Also, do remember, Pyres revolution didn’t do much of anything until AFTER the foefire, when the Flame Legion imperator died. Ebon Vanguard was skilled, but a distraction. We see them basically get stomped and almost entirely captured at one point when the Charr apparently gave them direct attention. Norn actually left the charr alone, and only stomped the idiot warbands that caused trouble. It’s stated at that point one army, or even an entire legion could easily sweep aside the Norn if the Charr wanted. Ascalon’s army was weakened from prophecies, and may not have recovered. Number wise mainly.

So in ten years Ascalon can’t recover, but the Charr can? Bias.

Having soldiers in the south isn’t crazy. Making implications that Adelbern had a fresh army down there that’d turn the tide of war? Not so much.

I never said fresh, and army is an army. The Charr certainly had their share of lost numbers too. Regardless, this specific argument was a theoretical one based on a non-GW2 narrative…which doesn’t hold up because we both could just end up arguing imaginary forces “off-the-map” until the cows came home.

This will be endless. There is nothing ingame that says Ascalon would heal fully. There is nothing ingame saying Ascalon would never heal. However, in the timeframe of Prophecies things got worst. Would you stick around on the hope and dream that it might heal?

You’re right, it’s an endless argument because, like the above argument, we’re just “supposing” things that neither of us can prove could have happened.

Again, maybe the charr got pushed out, and Adelbern decided that holding the northern end of Ascalon was never going to work, and thus focused the population south of the wall where it provided a limited amount of safety. Since Ascalon’s army and defenses are EXPLICITLY stated to be weaker.

So since you didn’t comment on it, you agree GW2 ANet ignored those two statements? Ok.

Teletric.1980:

To be honest, humans did take over the Charrs’ homeland. It wasn’t their land to begin with so I honestly think the Charrs were justified to do what they were doing.

The Charr homelands were in the Blazeridge Steppes, somewhere NE of the Ascalon Basin. GW2 ANet changed that in 2012.

Kalavier.1097:

Why? Because I don’t choose to cherry-pick against EOTN and GW beyond events when talking about GW1? Fact is, they are canon. That is the path the OWNERS of the game decided to go with. Maybe if you could go prod the main writer of Prophecies and get him to come out and state exactly how he saw the story moving forward before he left…

No, because you are cherry-picking. Those owners, as you say, of the game even state that EotN is meant as bridging the storylines between the games. Not to mention it’s painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain. If you can straight-faced say that EotN was a logical “4th installment” to the Guild Wars series, and had nothing to do with what narrative they wanted to produce for GW2, then you have no business posting anything in these forums.

As I’ve said. The only implication/statement about the war being finished is from factions, if you brought over a nightfall or proph char. In my completely honest opinion, if it was meant to be the end of the war, they showed that very poorly. It didn’t feel as if the charr conflict was ending or over at the end of titan source.

The implication was there in Proph. The statement from Mhenlo is backed up by Empire Divided…which wasn’t written for the wiki, but as canon as an out-of-game document from an in-game perspective. The end was poorly shown, you’re right. But that’s for 2 reasons. 1) The Charr were never conceived as a playable race, and their assault on humanity was only meant as a catalyst to the Prophecies narrative. 2) Just like the Mantle, the original storyline of Proph never revisits those outliers after you kill their leaders(Titans and Mursaat respectively) and they are assumed to be gone…even after another campaign was released. Why? Because there were no plans to come back to Ascalon back then for anything. Utopia, the cancelled 4th campaign, was supposed to be in Maguuma. It actually wasn’t until GW2 development itself(EotN) that we revisit Ascalon and the Charr and that’s the first time we see a different ending being told.

And many of them wouldn’t make sense at all. I’m saying that the charr may have had more people to the north. You are pulling people out of thin air for Ascalon.

The difference is saying “Hey, Charr called home and asked for reinforcements” makes more sense then “Adelbern has reserve units in the south most regions of Ascalon who are 100% fresh and prepared to fight.” So these reserve units and soldiers spent two WHOLE years dealing with “stragglers” that prevented them from being deployed to the wall? Doesn’t make sense. It comes across as going “You can’t have that!” without a valid reason of “Why?”

And you’re pulling Charr out of thin air as well. It doesn’t make logical sense that the Charr have so many numbers either. Heck even if you go by the EotN storyline, they were constantly under attack by the Vanguard, Adelbern, and even some Norn, lost their second set of leaders and gods(Destroyers), go through a civil war, in the middle of another war, mind you, and yet still manage to roflstomp Ascalon into oblivion.

And me saying Ascalon could have had more soldiers down south somewhere is crazy…

And nothing in-game held evidence or implications that Ascalon would heal quickly, if at all. What ingame says Ascalon would heal?

What in-game evidence says it wouldn’t?

Or that the Charr armies were pushed back and Ascalon simply held lands south of the wall for security reasons.

And would it be shocking that the weakened Ascalon army would be pushed back if a new, fresh charr army went south?

Because you are either going to kitten and moan about them “RETCONING ASCALON WINNING!”, or accept that maybe Ascalon won for a short while, then a new charr force went south.

Which, amusingly, links back to my whole “Maybe the charr brought reinforcements in.” Looks like it actually has some canon, factual lore backing based of Mhenlo’s statements.

Except that’s not what “officially” happened. Nowhere in EotN or later does it say anything about Ascalon taking back the north. According to GW2, the Charr never lost it.

ANet basically outright ignored Mhenlo’s and Ermenred’s statements.

Lostwingman.5034:

Kalavier.1097:

Yes, this is why the Charr and humans were at a stalemate purely because of the Great Northern Wall, and the Charr actively had engagements directly at the base of the wall.

This makes no sense when half of Ascalon had extended beyond the wall…

Kalavier is kinda right on this. The Wall was started in 898 AE and finished sometime before 1013. What’s odd is that is was supposedly erected as a safe-guard against increased Charr activity, yet cities like Surmia and Drascir(the former capital) were founded during or after the Wall’s construction. The Charr supposedly starting their invasion of the human kingdoms in 1070, the same year as the Searing. So I guess it didn’t take them that long to win the north, since there are Charr right on the other side of the Wall in pre-searing Ascalon.

Most of that is from the wiki. But reading all the the editing histories of some GW wiki pages is like being in the editing room of a newspaper with 30 journalists trying to tell you what to print.

Take it all with a grain of salt.

~note: I don’t mean it personally, for any of you GW1 wiki contributors out there. It’s a hard and thankless job, and my hats off to ya’ll. I only mean that there are sometimes so many opinions about some topics that it’s nearly impossible to tell original intention.

Kalavier.1097:

No, I simply hold a distinction. EOTN, GW beyond, are GW1. They are in that timeframe and era of the setting. They are played from GW1. I count them as GW1 lore because that is what they are. The novels directly about/before GW2, GW2, and living story are all GW2 events and era, therefore, are part of the GW2 lore.

If you really believe that, that is astounding.

A: If they are in the Basin, they are part of Ascalon. Are you saying Glint was straight up lying or misinformed when she told us that the armies had withered and weakened since Rurik left?

No, that is true, their forces had weakened in Rurik’s absence. The Charr were weakened to. They both were weakened, killing off the remaining Charr leaders and the Titans are supposed to be seen as the deciding factor in the war. Do you not see that?

B: If you had read my post, I never once said GW1 LA had a low population. If it’s the post I think of, I was actually going “Some people complained about the old (GW2 old, not GW1) LA because they couldn’t see it housing a big population.” Which was an actual thing back during the battle of LA. I never said I held that viewpoint.

Ah kitten , keep forgetting that now there’s an old old LA, and a new old LA. :-P

Only, we don’t know what happened to the army in Kryta. Just that the leadership was destroyed. Also, I’m saying the charr actually have means to bring in reinforcements. Ascalon has no military allies, and Glint explicitly says the armies are weakened. You think Adelbern would simply hold reserve units back in the south playing cards instead of actively using them to buff what little defenses were left?

I’m saying that you’re simply inferring the Charr had plenty of reserves to use based solely on the fact that their homeland was “off the map.” And I’m saying Ascalon could have had more reserves because there was a lot of Ascalon “off the map.” I.e., if you can say there were more Charr waiting up north to swoop down, I can say there were more Ascalon soldiers in the south who were held up because of dealing with Charr stragglers on their way to Orr. I could literally make up any reason why there would be more down there.

I’d have to find those ingame water spots post-searing. I don’t remember any personally :P.

Yeah, there’s not many. But a few of those waterways didn’t “slow” me when I crossed them.

One can easily assume that a MAGICAL based destruction will not hold the same results as a natural/normal siege weapon one. And healing takes time. How long would it take to heal to the point of being able to rebuild large farms? Who knows.

That’s fine, as long as you label it an assumption and not an idea supported by in-game evidence or allusions.

Yeah, that’s the ONLY ingame source saying the conflict is over… at that point. So you can either see it as the conflict ended, and then a NEW charr force moved south, or the war never truly ended and small fighting continued the entire time.

So if Mhenlo was correct, and I see no reason to doubt him, Ascalon actually reconquered the north and then immediately lost it again in the next few years? Is that what you’re going with here?

Kalavier.1097:

Was still made by the GW1 team and writers :P.

Lol. Alright. Then GW2 doesn’t exist, it should be called GW1… 250 years later!

However, in one direction, we have an unknown homeland that could have far more charr that simply didn’t charge south. In the other, we have a devastated nation that explicitly has had it’s armies weakened. Where would Ascalon reinforcements come from?

From anywhere in and around the entire Ascalon Basin. I saw you write in another post about GW1 LA population being low because you can’t see enough houses anywhere to justify a large pop. That’s not how it works, mate. These games, especially those made in mid-2000’s, didn’t exactly have all the programming resources to realistically depict a legit town. Hell, most games now can’t even do that. You’re supposed to…no, you’re invited to…use your imagination to fill in the blanks based off of in-game information and common sense. GW1 LA probably had a fictional population in the thousands or higher. Extrapolate that to a whole countryside and kingdom with an unknown number of total towns/cities, even one which had hellfire rain down on it, and you get a better picture.

You’re right we have no idea how many Charr are up there in their homelands, mind you. But to say that they can simply keep pouring in reserves, especially after losing one massive army in Orr, and another in Kryta, and a 3rd small one in Ascalon…is giving them nonsensical abilities. If they truly had that many numbers, they wouldn’t have waited so long to attack humans. The human armies were weakened from the constant Guild Wars, not annihilated, yet they can’t have reserves? Saying the Charr have some perma-spawn machine up in the Steppes is as silly as saying the Ascalon Census was an accurate depiction of the post-Searing Ascalonian total population.

One cannot drink tar. I never said it was radioactive or poisonous, just that it is tar.

Good, we agree! Not all the waterways in Ascalon were tar, by the way. In-game even.

Nowhere. But being a magical devastation, who knows if it’ll heal quickly or slowly. How healed it is in GW2 surprised me really. I went with the “Magical destruction, might not heal.” IIRC, there is somewhere in GW2 that basically says “The events that caused this are going to leave a permanent magical scar/effect on this spot.”

Of course GW2 says that, it serves their plot. Doesn’t say that in GW1 though, nothing about its “magical” comets sterilizing the land. That’s GW2 talking there.

Um, no. I’m talking about the “welcome to Cantha” quest. Mhenlo mentions the Charr have been pushed back more toward their homeland, and he was hoping for some peace before hearing about the plague. Pretty much the only direct ingame source I can find that implies the war is over.

Lol! Wow, thanks mate. I hadn’t seen that one before. I’ll add that to the list. =D

You wouldn’t think it important to note his scouts apparently have discovered what was left of the charr invasion starting to gather into one force? Again, I’m saying the Warmaster’s dialogue really just comes across to me as a “Oh, we found these scary as kitten burning creatures alongside some Charr chieftains who are gathering a warband. You are pretty powerful, surely you can go deal with those creatures and disperse that massive charr gathering.”

Dunno, maybe they don’t know it’s the last of them. Maybe the rest turned-tail and ran home after their “gods” died. Maybe Warmaster Labofski was not the best warmaster to be had in Ascalon:
“When I was just a young hooligan, I found myself before a judge on a regular basis. I stood here, inside this very building, as my punishments were read by the Magister. Back then, I can remember wishing this building would be hit by lightning or destroyed in a great fire. Never did I think it would come to be.”
I have to say this is a pickle!

Make it double as a logging ax?

Kalavier.1097:

Besides the fact Glint tells us explicitly Ascalon’s armies and defenses are weakened and withered? Either way, having found a line of dialogue from Mhenlo about the conflict, it looks more and more like a renewed Charr offensive post-prophecies timeline instead of a constant 100% war.

You mean his dialogue from Bejunkan Pier? Dude…that dialogue is for players who started with Factions and want to get to the Prophecies campaign. It’s bridging narration to introduce a little of what is going on for Proph. The new threat he’s talking about is the Mantle, Mursaat, Titan’s, and the Flameseeker Prophecies in general.

The warmaster in “The titan source.” He merely says “A massive charr gathering.” I’m not talking in general open world, I’m talking about within the missions themselves.

And?

“Old Ascalon Spirit in Nolani Academy:

“The story of our destruction was foretold long ago. Our names might as well have been written in the Flameseeker Prophecies.” "

And the Nolani spirit is talking about his fellow soldiers that were on the Wall when the Searing rained down on them, he wasn’t talking about the whole kindgom.

That line can be inferred a few different ways really.

Not really. That spirit is no different than Meerak’s shouting or the Mantle in the Gates of Kryta mission. The author is throwing out little tidbits of foreshadowing for the Flameseeker Prophecies themselves. The Searing is part of the Prophecy.

Kalavier.1097:

I’ve found a SINGLE line of dialogue that says that. And it doesn’t say Ascalon is back to normal. I don’t even see how you could say “Ascalon is back to normal” after the searing level event (at least, instantly).

Back to normal in terms of the kingdom’s political status, not in terms of the land being back to normal…that would be silly.

Devona is a member of Ascalon’s Chosen, and I recall reading in the past that was basically the name of her crew.

That would be an incorrect name for her “crew.” Ascalon’s Chosen was her father’s guild during the 3rd Guild War. Aidan, Eve, Cynn, and Mhenlo were not members of that guild. Coincidentally, Adelbern and Rurik were.

GW beyond may be meant to prepare for GW2, but it was created by the GW1 team. I’m sorry, but since I must load up GW1 to play it, I will consider it part of GW1. To me, saying it’s GW2 is like saying an add-on mission to “Starcraft Brood War” which works to setup or imply things about “Starcraft 2” is “Starcraft 2 canon.”

It’s GW2 in terms of storyline and narration, not in terms of gameplay mechanics. Again, that would be silly.

Again, that phrase falls back on the “In Prophecies, nobody acts as if the war is over/close to over in the final two quests about Ascalon.” Hell, the one line I see ingame says “The charr army is pushed north toward their homeland.” Not routed, utterly defeated, or wiped out. So, that ties back to what I was saying. A second force may have went south (tying into you wanting Ascalon to have won the war) instead of them ‘retconing’ it into the war never ending.

I never said they were wiped out, just that the war was over. A second force? Sure. If you get to surmise more Charr reinforcements, I get to surmise more Ascalon reinforcements. Can’t have it only one way.

Yes, because an artillery shelling turns lakes and rivers into solid, thick tar that’s still present two years after the fact.

The tar isn’t poison, dude. It’s tar because the vegetation died and all the topsoil ran off into the lakes and river. If it was radioactive or poisonous, it would have hurt your health like swamps in Kryta.

I say “Like a nuke” because it turned the region INTO A WASTELAND. That is canon fact, you cannot ignore or skirt around it. Ascalon. Was. A. Wasteland.

Agree. Where does it say that it was permanent?

Kalavier.1097:

Vanthian.9267:

I read through quite a bit of this thread (not all of it) but I failed to see any mention of why and how the Charr actually over threw the human kingdoms. Some of you are actually trying to argue the Charr did it through their own strengths when that is a complete lie. The Charr had no hope against the humans by themselves.

Yes, this is why the Charr and humans were at a stalemate purely because of the Great Northern Wall, and the Charr actively had engagements directly at the base of the wall.

Abaddon and the titans were the cause of the fall of Ascalon. The Charr were merely puppets of the previous.

The titans were under direct order from Abaddon to push the Charr against humanity. Without that, the Charr would have been slaughter and pushed back further. It wasn’t the power of the Charr but the power of long forgotten “beings” that killed Ascalon.

Titan magic caused the searing, but other then the searing Cauldren… they provided little to no aid to the charr. So, again, the charr overrunning the armies of Arah quickly is all Charr.

The later explanation for their renewed strength was the unification of the Legions, which came about because of the Titans. Supposedly.

Almost nothing is known of the battle in Orr. Perhaps the Charr used another Cauldron with pinpoint accuracy like in Blast from the Past. That thing was like a smart bomb. :-P

Kalavier.1097:

Because it’s totally reasonable to assume the charr had their entire leadership in Ascalon and not a single charr to the North would try to rally another army to finish the job.

Just like it’s totally reasonable to assume only the in-game explorable part of Ascalon is all there is and not a single Ascalon to the south would try to rally another army to finish the job.

Then why assume that the Charr are simply gone, when not a single NPC in Ascalon acts as if the war is almost over. Again, that’s kinda a HUGE thing that you think somebody would TALK about to the player. Like the warmaster going “The Charr chieftains are gathering the bulk of their remaining forces.” instead of “The Charr chieftains are gathering a warband.”

Because when you go back to Ascalon, almost all of the NPC’s are still coded to say things as if you just started the game. I don’t know why whatever warmaster you mention there didn’t specify it was the last of the Charr…what a horrible narrative oversight. -__-

“The prophecy (as much as is known through the game) predicts the destruction of Ascalon, the death of Prince Rurik, civil war in the Shiverpeak Mountains, an undead force arriving, the finding of the Scepter of Orr, its falling into the hands of the Lich Lord (the Flameseeker referred to in the name), the fall of the Mursaat at the hands of the Chosen, the Lich Lord opening the Door of Komalie, and the subsequent release of the Titans (who are presumably the flame being sought out). Even the eventual downfall of the Flameseeker was foretold in the prophecies, according to Glint, so it is likely that the Lich Lord was not aware of the entire prophecy, especially given his motivation to fulfill them. Glint may even have withheld revealing parts of the prophecy until the end of the Hell’s Precipice mission. "

“Old Ascalon Spirit in Nolani Academy:

“The story of our destruction was foretold long ago. Our names might as well have been written in the Flameseeker Prophecies.” "

<_<.

Umm…that phrase up there about the destruction of Ascalon isn’t actually in the game. You should read the wiki notes more carefully. That part was added to the wiki by our good friend Konig in 2013. :-/
And the Nolani spirit is talking about his fellow soldiers that were on the Wall when the Searing rained down on them, he wasn’t talking about the whole kindgom.

<_<

My point being that once we left Ascalon, it’s revelance to the story disappeared. Not once were the player characters concerned with what was happening back home. Hell, the only time we actually head back is because Glint tells us to kill the Titans.

Agree!!

Kalavier.1097:

Assumed by you. I never once took it as if Ascalon was safe and sound and the charr forever defeated.

Hell, if the mantle is in charge still. Why would they trade with Ascalon after Ascalonians murdered their entire top tier leadership? :P

Not assumed by me, assumed by the writer and the narrative. He has them both back to normal by the time of Factions. Both the Searing carnage and the Mantle in Kryta are there to serve the plot of the story, they aren’t meant as indicators of both kingdoms future.

Again, point is not them making new maps. Point is nobody mentions the charr-human conflict as being over ingame. I would think that would be something to mention during Last Day dawns/Titan Source. Or hell, having Ascalon’s chosen mention it in factions! Jess Mentions Ascalon are Kryta are trading again, with no explaination to the “WHY?” bit. He explicitly developed Adelbern into a king who hates Krytans above almost all else, yet suddenly Adelbern is making treaties and trading with Kryta?

The “why” is because they never had time to come back to it. GW1 wasn’t like GW2, they released another stand-alone campaign in 1 year. That’s not Ascalon’s Chosen, that’s Devona and Co. Some of them have small remarks about missing home, but you have to remember Devona and Co. are taking the same steps the PC is…like you, they left with Rurik and the refugees. And they left for Cantha with you to join that cause. They are kind of like the PC’s posse.

Not a single person says Ascalon is safe. Glint says “ADELBERN.” is safe, but that’s explicitly in the context of the TITAN threat, not the charr. As you said, Adelbern disliked Zain because of being Mantle and Krytan, yet Adelbern would trade with the white mantle? This doesn’t make sense at all especially if we are to think that a single person wrote all of this. A group writing it makes more sense because perhaps failure to communicate details across the team.

GW2 didn’t say a thing about the shining blade. Guild wars beyond (which is Guild wars 1, not 2) worked on that part.

It is GW2. Ermenred said Ascalon was safe. Taking the phrase “recovering from the Charr conflict” as anything less than recovering from a war that is over is your problem.

It’s not based “On a brown map” It’s based on the fact that Ascalon got hit with the equivalent of a NUKE. Explicitly (in manual and IN THE GAME, FROM MAJOR NPCS) was stated to be a wasteland. The fact Ascalon has healed as much as it has by GW2 was surprising to me, being 100% honest. I did not expect it to be that healthy again.

Yes, I see Kryta making the 250 year haul. Ascalon, I could not.

Was the Searing radioactive? News to me! It wouldn’t take more than 10 years for land to recover from an artillery shelling. Even one as massive as the Searing.

Kalavier.1097:

Obsidian, I’ll read and reply to your post in a bit, but while at work I was thinking. Now I assume you’d be against this, but I’ll say it anyway.

Ever think that MAYBE, At end of Titan Source, the Charr were defeated (not wiped out) and went back north. So Ascalon had peace for a few years… then a NEW charr force charged south again?

Also, again, they never say that Tyria or Ascalon is safe entirely. Just that the Titan threat is dealt with. The literal only thing Glint says is that the Titan’s don’t threaten Tyria anymore. That does not mean the Charr are dealt with.

Yet another Charr horde…sure, why not.

Glint says Tyria is revived and Tyria is saved after Hell’s Precipice. And that Tyria isn’t safe until you finish off the Titans, which you do. You’re right that he doesn’t specify the Charr.

At any rate, the point of Glint is as an arbiter of the Flameseeker Prophecies themselves. It is the driving force of the narrative. It foretold the Searing, the Cataclysm, Rurik’s death, the Mursaat, Khilbron, and even that the Chosen one would be an Ascalonian who would follow Rurik out of Ascalon. But it never alludes to anything about the destruction of Ascalon, only that of Orr.

Rurik’s death was part of the PC’s destiny, not merely a casualty of Adelbern’s pride. You’re right that Adelbern is a minor character in all this. His only job was to set the wheels of the Prophecy in motion by being a general kitten to his son and the PC empathizes and follows Rurik out. The writer was using him as a plot catalyst, Adelbern had to be a kitten.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

~snip~

The wiki is wrong.

Correction
The wiki is incomplete.

Here’s his tiny credit given him on the GW wiki.

Something seems fishy. Why is his resume your only source? He claims authorship which should be documented. His statement on directing voiceovers is not corroborated by imdb. So far he is the only one saying he did these things.

It’s not my only source, it’s just a source.

Daniel…do you really think his resume is a hoax?

He didn’t mess up, he just never had the time or resources to get back to it. The White Mantle were supposed to have destroyed the Shining Blade after our hasty get-away at Sanctum Cay remember? That’s something that is alluded to and assumed, but never outright said, just like the Ascalon surviving the Charr is alluded to and assumed, but never outright said.

ANet would have had to have made entirely new “post-Prophecies” maps for the sole purpose of laying to rest hundreds of loose lore threads…are you kidding me? That Jess or ANet never did outright lay to rest some things is the entire reason WiK and EotN can exist in the first place. Sure Jess mentions that Ascalon and Kryta are trading again…because the Flameseeker Prophecies are over, Tyria is safe, and he’s writing Factions now.

We know Ascalon is safe because he says so, yet he never mentions who is in charge of Kryta now that the Mursaat are defeated. He left it with the Mantle in charge and the Shining Blade “all but disbanded” according to Evennia. Yet GW2 ANet added the whole story about the Shining Blade coming back from impossible odds with the Ascended helping to defeat waves upon waves of Mantle and Mursaat. Kryta’s sovereign ambiguity was just as much, if not more, up in the air after Proph as was Ascalon’s. Yet you have no issue with how ANet handled that? How they not only wrote Kryta back into pre-Mantle existence, but elevated them to the only human kingdom in GW2? Do you really not think that could have just as easily(if not easier) been done with Ascalon? Or is this all based on a brown map? Seriously dude?

Yes, it said he survived the invasion…past tense.

Yes, the Charr army of “thousands” was portrayed as drastically reduced in number in Last Day Dawns. At Surmia, this was done for narrative purposes to set-up Rurik’s argument with his pa, not as an indication of Ascalon’s impending doom.

Again, Rurik’s fight with his dad is to give the PC a reason to GTFO of Ascalon and because he’s supposed to die in front of the PC…for obvious reasons. It further endears him to the PC by sacrificing his life for you and the refugees and makes the final battle mission all that much more emotional. Had he stayed in Ascalon, and you left without him, that final battle against him in undead form wouldn’t have really meant much. Try to see why the narration is what it is and not just words on a screen.

Ironically, that quote you posted of Adelbern is the explanation for why he would have started making treaties with Kryta again. The whole point of that dialogue is to show his remorse and that he actually is a human being and not some beyond-all-hope madman. You left off the last part of that quote btw:

“I thank you for your help today. Rurik would have been very proud of all you have accomplished.”

He’s not angrier, he’s humbled.

Kalavier.1097:

So everybody else listed under “writers” simply did nothing and sat aside, even for Prophecies?

Regardless, if he left the company, then you can’t complain about things MAYBE changing (Adelbern’s descent to insanity fits well with his portrayal in prophecies. As he lost more and more, he went more mad.) because it’s not like the guy is still around to direct things.

We aren’t talking about a Traviss level rewriting here, just a progression. It is canon FACT Adelbern grew even more stubborn as time went on, and never budged on his hate of Krytans. It is canon FACT that the charr forces were not routed during the events of Prophecies. The Titans were defeated and the leaders maybe killed, but the army was not.

It’s amusing when people describe all charr in GW1 as wanting to slaughter humans, but then the moment the leading warband gets killed, the charr all apparently ran away :P.

Did you even research that list?

Stacie Magelssen, Brian Campbell, Cory Herndon, Caitlin Kittredge, and Bobby Stein all came on board for Factions.
Sean Ferguson and Will McDermott came on board for Nightfall.

I can most certainly still argue about things changing, whether or not Jess is still there is entirely irrelevant to that aspect of the conversation.

It’s certainly not canon fact Adelbern got more stubborn in Proph, that happened in EotN and later.

It’s also not canon fact the Charr forces were not routed. It’s outright stated as such in Empire Divided(which Jess wrote), not to mention numerous allusions to such and this line in Last Day Dawns from one of Adelbern’s guards: “I did not survive the Charr invasion only to be slain by these demons!” By the time of that event, those few Charr there are supposed to represent the remaining Charr forces dude…

The Charr didn’t run away, they were already dead. …until the EotN reboot that is.

Rednik.3809:

So as expected, he only was leading one, not only one.

The “team” didn’t come about until Factions, for Proph it was all him. “Led creative direction” doesn’t mean led a team of writers. And even when he did with Factions, he still authored the story outline of that campaign.

For Proph, he wrote all storyline narration, missions, cut-scene dialogue, and, oh yeah, designed the worded world. He basically wrote Tyria into literary existence. Keep in mind that when ANet first started working on Guild Wars, they had less than 2 dozen on staff.

Like I said, if you want to ignore that, that’s your problem.

Kalavier.1097:

~snip~

The wiki is wrong.

Correction
The wiki is incomplete.

Here’s his tiny credit given him on the GW wiki.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

^ I don’t know what that means. He’s no mystery, btw. Anyways, not my problem if you choose to ignore it.

So you are unable to prove your point, as expected. Well, so be it.

sigh…

Fine, be lazy.

These are taken from Jess Lebow’s resume page:

2003-2005
Arena Net Bellevue, WA
World Designer/Story Creator

• Led story creation and creative direction for Guild Wars, a AAA PC game with over 1.5 million sales in its first year.
• Authored story outlines for Guild Wars Core Campaign and Guild Wars Factions.
• Designed game and mission mechanics.
• Wrote all mission and cut-scene scripts, along with high-resolution marketing cinematics.
• Wrote and directed all in-game voiceover.
• Wrote monthly short fiction for Guildwars.com.
• Responsible for creation of large online fan fiction community.

2005-2006
Arena Net Bellevue, WA
Producer

• Produced all in-game voiceover, including managing casting, budgets, voice direction, and recording sessions.
• Managed team of four writers and cut-scene director.
• Wrote and produced all high-resolution game trailers.
• Produced all printed materials, including strategy guides, game manuals, marketing documentation, art books, and manga.
• Pitched stories to all major gaming magazines.
• Acted as spokesperson for Guild Wars and Arena Net in interviews with major game media: CBS, G4 Tech TV, IGN, Gamespy, Play Magazine, Computer Games Magazine, Computer Gaming World.
• Gave interviews to international news media outlets in Korea, Taiwan, Germany, France, and Japan.
• Helped develop print media business: manga, novels, and printed games.

I suppose he could be lying. :-/

Kalavier.1097:

Yet, we did. Prophecies takes place in under a year, and Factions starts after it. We helped do the test, and in WiK, the captain of the settlement states they had lived in Kryta peacefully for years by then. The Mantle didn’t do anything to them.

Umm…the Mursaat stopped taking Chosen after the Flameseeker Prophecies concluded. The Door of Komalie was closed.

He tried to charge an ambassador for treason, the reasons being “He’s Krytan” and “He gave food and supplies to an orphanage.” Note, Adelbern NEVER talks about him being Mantle. It’s purely “HE’S KRYTAN.” He’s noted to be insanely stubborn and refuses to get over the last guild war. Beyond can be included as evidence because IT IS GUILD WARS 1 CONTENT. It was MADE by GW1 staff.
EOTN was written by a number of the same people who wrote Prophecies. I load it from GW1, therefore it is GW1 content. Denying it is cherry-picking GW1 lore. Yes, beyond is setting up GW2, but the item in that is the Shining blade ambassador being forced to sit outside AC for a long time, and then disappearing.

EotN… “…is intended to tie the Guild Wars storyline with that of Guild Wars 2” Everything in that campaign and beyond(no pun intended) is set-up for GW2. And no, EotN was not written by anyone in Proph…they weren’t even on the staff at that time. Just ask Rednik, he’ll tell ya! Denying that is white-washing GW1 lore and akin to rewriting fictional history.

Actually, Glint told us to go help him. Adelbern not once asked for help with the titans. Glancing over the dialogue, it comes across more as a “Go protect him because he will get himself killed.” Also, he doesn’t really ask for help in the post-campaign scene in prophecies.

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Why would you leave when everybody else is staying? Maybe you are that sane person who doesn’t want to LIVE IN A WASTELAND WITH MORE TAR THEN WATER.

Maybe you and your group decide to travel across the mountains because you want a better, safer life and you know Kryta is better off then Ascalon.

Rurik leaving made sense, 100%. He saw the wasteland that Ascalon became. He saw the armies of the charr, and how a mighty legend like stormcaller really didn’t do much to change the war for the better. He saw a losing fight and decided it was better to try to get everybody out before they all died.

Um…he still asked for help. It was in true Adelbern-pompous fashion, but it was still asking for help. I don’t know why you are yelling, not all the water was tar, nor all the dirt ash. Rurik’s leaving actually didn’t make much sense if you follow all of his dialogue. Most of what he spouts is “never give up!” diatribe, like his “Don’t mess with Ascalon!(Texas) remarks. I mean…there’s a reason players likened him to Leroy Jenkins. Yet he throws in the towel after seeing one army. Obviously, Je…oops, almost gave it away to Rednik. The writer had trouble coming up with a way to lure the PC over the Shivs. Sorry if you can’t see that.

Also, you give up too easy, mate.

Kalavier.1097:

As of that stage, the shining blade were basically a group of bandits. If we really went that way, we’d say that Ascalon was in civil war before the searing because of the royalists!

Umm…okay?

What green spots were in post searing Ascalon? I explored the entire area for 100% map completion, and I recall no true green spots.

Do it again, you’ll find em.

It wasn’t sterilized, but it was turned into a wasteland. In your response, would you choose to live there if it was lush green lands that had turned to wasteland 2 years ago?

Didn’t the Charr do exactly that?

And I was talking about the bloody Deldrimor, not Ascalon. You asked about the dwarves in a siege, I responded about the dwarves. I’m fairly sure Ascalon’s food stockpiles didn’t expect the land to be ruined and devastated by the searing. Ascalon wasn’t perhaps sieged, but it was under constant attack basically.

I know you were talking about Deldrimor…that was my point. If Ascalon wasn’t besieged, then it follows that they could still get supplies in from somewhere.

And look at Adelbern and Tydus’s comment about Zain. It’s not “White mantle plot.” It’s “KRYTAN plot.” They distrusted him purely because he was Krytan.

And? How does that matter, he was still causing trouble, regardless of professed affiliation.

Yet even in the mission about the chosen, it’s a split. Some seem happy for the chosen, others grumble about less hands to work the fields. You are making this part far more complex then it is. Simply put, the Krytan government fled or was destroyed, and the White Mantle stepped in. Like the Empire from star wars or the Dominion in starcraft, outlying regions/outspoken areas saw the worst of it, but the bulk of citizens simply continued living without seeing what was really happening. Had the Mantle control lasted more then a few years, things would’ve turned. Two years isn’t that odd for somebody to not come home from an academy from. But if it had been 10 years with nobody coming back? That’s weird.

So you think no one thought it odd that someone came in and made it illegal to worship the Six anymore, and that they had to start worshipping these new gods? I don’t think so.

A: Charr were ‘invading’ from the north.
B: Ascalon became isolationist, and had mountains to the south of it. South of those was the crystal desert. So who would be sending supplies north across a desert and mountains to Ascalon?

Not that far, silly. I meant south of the explorable area in Ascalon. You’re again assuming all of Ascalon was scorched because it’s brown on the world map.

The borders weren’t closed, but Adelbern refused the offers of help given. He basically turned it into an isolated nation. And I doubt your conviction would actually last. You are saying you would keep your family, friends, etc in a lush area turned wasteland, instead of following Rurik to an area that is STILL lush and fertile? You’d rather hunt for good water instead of simply walking down to a river?
All because “It’s your home.” People move all the time, for many reasons. It’s that mindset that results in deaths during severe weather because instead of moving someplace safe, they sit in their home “THIS IS MY HOME, I AM NOT LEAVING!” and then find their homes collapsed on them from hurricanes.

Dude…they don’t leave their home for good because of a hurricane. They find shelter for the night and come back to it the next day. If it’s destroyed, they either rebuild or leave if they can’t afford it. By the way, in the Middle-Ages, the fantasy setting GW most closely follows, most people didn’t live right on the beach in Hurricane prone areas…because there was no insurance and FEMA back then. But to answer your question, yes I would stay if my home got turned to ash. I would see it as my duty to defend and rebuild it. It bore me, nurtured me, and raised me…why would I leave it when it needs me most? There’s a reason why the word “motherland” exists, and it’s not referring to the land my mother came from…

Again, there is defending your country and homeland, and “Holy kitten you are so stubborn you are going to die.”

But they weren’t all going to die. GW2 turned it into a hopeless crusade…for all the reasons I’ve mentioned before. In GW1 they were surviving just fine.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It was a rhetorical question, I’m not going to do your work for you. Either look on my past posts, research the game better than just a “wiki skim”, or even better, go outside official ANet channels.

There you go, I gave you 3 places to start. Good luck! =D

So you asking me to search proofs for your point? Nice try, but not gonna work. You made a statement about mysterious lore writer, so it’s your job to prove it.
E incumbit probatio, qui dicit, non qui negat.

^ I don’t know what that means. He’s no mystery, btw. Anyways, not my problem if you choose to ignore it.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

Do you want his name?

Ofc. With sources about him being only writer of Prophecies lore and characters.

It was a rhetorical question, I’m not going to do your work for you. Either look on my past posts, research the game better than just a “wiki skim”, or even better, go outside official ANet channels.

There you go, I gave you 3 places to start. Good luck! =D

Kalavier.1097:

However, the Ascalon settlement in Kryta was not tested for Chosen during their stay there… at all. Infact, They lived peacefully in Kryta and had no issues with the White Mantle until the civil war in GW beyond. We personally do the test of the chosen, and we aren’t close to the Settlement.

The Test of the Chosen happened once a year in summer…it would have been incredibly coincidental had the Ascalon Refugees arrived on that same day. Or even week.

One line does not remove everything he previously did or said. One line does not magically make him a changed man. Later on in Beyond, we see him keeping the Shining blade ambassador outside of the city, and she personally says he would rather all Krytans die before listening to her. EOTN had the same writers as Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. The biggest writing staff changes happened from EOTN to GW2.

You just messed up. If one line can’t remove everything he previously did, then one line can’t condemn him either. The one thing that every Adelbern critic points to was his banishment of Rurik. Beyond, along with all of EotN, is GW2 setup and can’t be included as evidence…Ascalon’s fate in the future GW2 narrative had already been decided by ANet by then(@2006). What other “bad” things did Adelbern do, prior to GW2 development, besides kick his son out? Try to arrest a Mantle rep? That’s it? Please.

Oh, and while some believed in Adelbern, it’s stated explicitly in the manual…

“Already the rumbling of the winds of change can be heard in the streets. People are frightened. They wonder what will become of them. Some even wonder aloud if Adelbern has lost what it takes to steer Ascalon back from the brink. They wish to see the prince step up and take command of the kingdom. Perhaps under his guidance, the people of Ascalon will live on to see another golden age. "

That a lot of people wanted to see Rurik take the throne, and thought with Rurik as king, Ascalon would prosper again.

Even if Adelbern, in the end, grew calmer, he was still leading an isolationist state. The only way for Ascalon to have survived IMO is IF they had accepted help.

He did accept help…from the PC to go kill their gods the Titans. He even asks you to help at the party in Droknar’s at the end of Proph.

Adelbern’s popularity was hit and miss. I could just as easily come up with quotes from NPC’s who swore he was the bestest king evar! The narrative pushes the PC toward Rurik because it serves the overall story, not the other way around. The writer needed some way to convince the PC to leave his home and get on with the real meat and potatoes of the story. Ruriks fight with his dad was it. Had the writer made it so that the PC simply leaves on his own volition, it would have been bad storytelling. Why on earth should I leave my home when everyone else is staying? Oh okay, I’m following the prince out…that sounds better. His dad is such a meanie anyway!

Think about it.

Kalavier.1097:

Dagnar didn’t die at Sorrow’s Furnace, and IIRC, that happened AFTER the Lich was defeated (And it was a combo of both that results in a lot of Sorrow’s Furnance fleeing). Still, it comes across as if Adelbern made no efforts to contact other nations.

You’re right, his forces were defeated, but he himself was not killed. My mistake.

Krytan was offering Aid before the civil war (As White Mantle), and then in War in Kryta, what the shining blade/Queen’s forces were saying was “You help us out right now military-wise, WE WILL return the favor and help you out military and food-wise.”

I wasn’t talking about WiK, the Shining Blade were Krytans. Krytans fighting Kyrtans = civil war…weather the general populace knew about it or not is irrelevant.

Ascalon was a wasteland, the manual is pretty kitten explicit. Sure, you can find food and water (Some theorize humans ate Charr during that period), but not a lot. Would you live in the middle of the Australian desert, or in the forests of the American east coast?

If my home was the Australian desert? Yes. Why wouldn’t I? The Searing didn’t sterilize the land, it was recovering. There were patches of green all over, you just had to find them. I don’t think ANet had the time or resources to create a new “regrowing” Ascalon map after a couple of years just to validate that. And just because the world map of Ascalon was brown doesn’t mean it’s lifeless. The Crystal Desert was all yellow from space, yet there were plenty of Oases around.

Obviously, we packed our own food for realm of torment and ring of fire. Deldrimor would’ve eaten food that was stockpiled (The point of a siege is they CAN’T get food from outside…)

So, Ascalon didn’t have any stockpiled food? And since when was Ascalon besieged? Overran is not the same thing, the bulk of the Charr army passed through Ascalon like a freight train on their way to Orr, but they didn’t seige the place up. They didn’t even have it surrounded.

Note, he was almost arrested after handing food and supplies to an ORPHANAGE. The unknown items were AFTER that. Meanwhile Rurik’s response. Also was before the bribing as well from what I can read.
~ Zain/Rurik convo snipped for space ~

But he was asking for something in return…that’s the whole point. When you set out to convert a nation to your own religion, you don’t tell the guys in charge you’re going to do that. That would be really stupid. Rurik had no reason to disbelieve Zain, but Zain was lying to him nonetheless.

If they were so obviously enslaving, the shining blade would have exploded into a huge force. No, for the two years, they covered their tracks well enough the general population didn’t know kitten was up.

The Mantle just saved them from the Charr, most were too scared to say anything. They didn’t want to seem ungrateful perhaps? I don’t know, I don’t understand the Krytan psyche here…all they did was trade liberty for life here. To say no Krytan theoretically knew something was wrong with the Mantle is a pretty large delusion.

Bringing their own food from the north, depending on the sources they ate humans as well.

If the Charr can bring in supplies from “the north somewhere” then the Ascalons can bring in supplies “from the south somewhere”. You simply cannot suppose it’s possible for one and not the other.

Even soldiers know that sometimes, defending an area is pointless. Ascalon was ruined. It’s borders closed by Adelbern’s isolation.
You would rather stay in Ascalon in that condition, instead of seeking a better life that isn’t besieged by Charr daily? Instead of clean rivers and grasslands, ash covered wastes and tar for children to play in?

If it was my home, of course I would. It’s borders weren’t closed, they were just undefined. The PC only ever got to explore maybe a quarter of the whole kingdom.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

Uhmm…yes? It’s common knowledge the person who wrote Proph hasn’t been with ANet since Nightfall. Do your research.

So Anet had only one lore-writing person and he was fired after that? Marvelous story indeed, but not very believable.

And yet it’s still true…amazing! He left after Factions, not fired by the way. He was the sole writer for Proph, and lead writer for Factions. Do you want his name? Or should I let you find out for yourself?

Kalavier.1097:

Ah yeah, Deldrimor who are dealing with civil war, and the southern part of Ascalon which was just as burnt as the playable area.

That war ended when Dagnar Stonepate died in Sorrow’s Furnace at the PC’s hand, the rest of the Stone Summit fled to the far Shivs. Besides, why would you say Kryta could have given Ascalon aid if they were in a civil war too? Can’t have it both ways.
Also, If the writer had meant to portray Ascalon as both 100% scorched earth and 100% unsupply-able, why did so many stick around? Adelbern’s will?? Did they all eat ash and drink tar?? You should be careful not to take visual representations of carnage as indicative of RL supply issues. How did we have anything to eat on the Fire Islands? or the Realm of Torment? What did the Deldrimor eat while being besieged by the Stone Summit for that matter? WHY IS THERE NO FOOD AROUND?? Really?

Zain’s intentions were to offer aid. He spouted typical white mantle lines, but his primary job was to offer aid, not convert everybody. The Sextants, as I see, were never explained, and bribing guards to ensure he has protection in Ascalon, which is led by an anti-krytan king? Not shocking. Also, that quest comes after the Fort Ranik mission. Which is after Adelbern almost had Zain arrested for treason.

His primary job was to bring Ascalon into the Mantle fold, offering aid was a means to an end. If a diplomat from a country you were just at war with was outside your capital offering free aid, while spouting false-god rhetoric, handing out unknown magical items, and bribing the army…I think I’d have him arrested too.

Did I say “THE WHITE MANTLE WERE GOOD”? No. I simply said they were GOOD AT COVERING THEIR TRACKS. Note white mantle page from GW1 wiki. "To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands. "

From the same wiki page: “It is the responsibility of the White Mantle to oversee the other humans and impose upon them the rules and laws of the Unseen Ones.” The Krytans basically gave up their freedom to survive. Also from that page: “They have even sent an ambassador to Ascalon to further their teachings in other lands.” Thanks for guiding me to that page, it backs up my earlier point nicely.

Ascalon was burning, it wasn’t going to last long while Adelbern refused all help and the Charr were not soundly defeated and driven back for good.

Nor were all the Ascalons. Tell me, how did the Charr survive in Ascalon if it was all burning?

“To the Krytans the White Mantle are the root of law and order, the protectors or saviors, if you will, of their lands. "

Said no one ever… in real-life, sillypants.

They never actually state Ascalon had to worship the mursaat and convert to receive aid. Zain was there to offer it. In fact, nothing about Zain’s message strikes me as a “Convert and get help, refuse and die.” Given how he freely gave supplies to the Orphanage and was wanting to offer even additional help. He didn’t make the lady running it convert.

See above. Yeah…Zain didn’t outright state “I’m here to convert you all!” Are you kidding? Now that would have got him arrested for sure.

If the area is dangerous and unlivable, and my family would be more likely to die horribly then to live long lives, I’d relocate. If I was an Ascalonian, I’d choose to relocate to someplace I KNOW can support my family, then to live in a wasteland and barely surviving. I’d follow Rurik across the mountains.

If I was in Ebonhawke, I’d embrace peace over trying to continue a long, bitter war. I’d rather see my family and friends live in peace without having to worry about siege rounds smashing houses. The Separatists don’t want to see Ascalon retaken. They just want to see more endless war, which would mean more and more and MORE dead humans.

And that is why not everyone is a soldier. They fight for others who can not, or will not, fight. Wherever you live, just know that there is someone who stands on a line somewhere who ensures your safety and peace. Remember Chamberlain’s folly.

Rednik.3809:

You have proofs about GW1 lore writing team being fired and not participating in developing of GW2 or what?

Uhmm…yes? It’s common knowledge the person who wrote Proph hasn’t been with ANet since Nightfall. Do your research.

Rednik.3809:

Fun fact – dead are not free. They are dead. Adelbern was a horrible example of the king, he not just completely failed as leader and lost his war due to his foolish stubbornness, but he also betrayed and killed even those who managed to survive his failures.

Fun fact – GW2 Adelbern =/= GW1 Adelbern. Learn to think critically and find reasons why writers and narrative designers do what they do. GW1 Adelbern was stubborn and a bad father, but he was no genocidal maniac. That’s GW2 writing. He’s a fall-guy, used to validate the Charr hegemony in Ascalon. Nothing more.

Sorry for the late response, been away awhile.

Kalavier.1097:

You really think Adelbern kept all those intact? He hated Kryta.

Perhaps you’re right on this one.

What supply lines? Adelbern hated Kryta and refused any aid or such from them, and the way to Elona was through the crystal desert and Desolation.

I didn’t mean Kryta or Elona. The Deldrimor were allied with them, and the bulk of Ascalon(which we don’t get to see) was south of the explorable area.

Yeah, but my point is less about whether that ambassador had good or bad intentions, and more of Adelberns treatment of him… and how easily he could’ve treated Eveinna like that, only now Rurik can’t protect the ambassador.

Zain’s intentions were probably why Adelbern treated him as such: 1) He was Mantle and wanted to convert Ascalons to worshipping Mursaat, 2) He was known to be handing out Eldritch sextants to Ascalon merchants for reasons never explained, and 3) he bribed Ascalon guards for protection. Besides, Tydus even stated: “King Adelbern has too much respect for the old laws to harm Ambassador Zain without cause.” Distrusting him didn’t mean he wanted him dead without cause.

As I recall, it was very subtle, very stealthy take over. The White Mantle literally stepped in and kicked the Charr out, while the government was in shambles and bankrupt (the king had taken the savings with him IIRC). They simply took the government seat and for the most part, were decent. Until the events of the flameseeker prophecies.

Abject slavery and beheading innocent Krytans on the Bloodstone was decent? I suppose it is if you value order over liberty. :-/

I don’t see how it’s “validating what Kryta did and saying Ascalon was bad”.

ANet needed to have humanity down to one kingdom, villifying Adelbern and transferring Ascalon to the Charr was the easiest way to do that…it was already burning. It was a design decision based on racial parity(every “faction” in GW2 has just one culture pretty much)and on design time limitations(the cost of keeping Ascalon human and designing the Charr homelands somewhere northeast was too exhaustive; I mean, no Cantha after 3 years wasn’t just a diplomatic decision on ANets part, the graphical detail of GW2 Tyria takes more time and effort than you think).

Kryta had no government, no leadership. White Mantle simply stepped forth, protected the land and offered leadership. Until the shining blade and the heroes exposed them, they actually did a decent job at it and were very good at covering up the bad things. After the shining blade gained power and influence… then the white mantle went nasty.

Right. The Mursaat and Mantle were benevolent protectors. Said no one ever.

I take the lesson as more like this personally. “If you stubbornly refuse help, change, or accept the situation, you will fail and/or die.”

That change and “help” was at the price of Ascalons independence. Again, death is better than slavery. Adelbern did accept his situation, he was willing to die to keep his country free. In fact, the Shining Blade refused to accept change and the Mantle “situation”, and it was the right thing to do. The only help they accepted was freely given, not tied to chains. By the way, change in and of itself isn’t inherently good. It can be good and bad…depending on the situation.

Adelbern style Ascalonians are present in GW2 in the form of the seperatists… who demand or try to force humans and charr into conflict again. Even though peace is INSANELY good and benefiting of Ebonhawke, they want only continued war.

Yeah…peace is better than never seeing your home again. If a gang came into your neighborhood and started killing and burning everyone, with the intent to exterminate you and everyone you know, and take over your community, would you just walk calmly out the door and away with no thought of defiance? I hope not. Where would people like the Irish or Greeks or even the Ukrainians be today had they just let the simple passage of time be enough to discourage their right to their own land?

sheesh

Kalavier.1097:

What treaty was there before the events of Proph but after the Guild Wars besides maybe a peace one?

Trade treaties before Proph and before the 3rd guild war, not after.

Also, other historians have skewed the facts(both IRL and in GW). Just look at the “stormcaller triumph” memorial. And he lives in Kryta and was in Cantha when he wrote that passage. He simply may not have had all the facts (communication over those distances wasn’t likely that great. No instant messanging).

Ermenred’s first appearance in LA was summer 2007…around the same time as EotN’s release. It was known ANet writer’s were using him as a joke NPC, which would also help downplay anything related to him…like claiming the war was over in Ascalon. Do you not think the new writers read Empire Divided themselves? Or that the timing of his appearance was incidental?

No leadership perhaps, but supplies and/or idea of how to get home? Unlikely. Saul didn’t wipe out their supply trains or supply stashes, just the leadership.

If you get to assume something that you can’t see in-game, then so do I: the Charr didn’t wipe out Ascalon’s supply lines, they could still bring in supplies from the west and south regularly…

Which is applying out of universe knowledge to justify in universe stubborn hate.

NOBODY at that time, besides the small shining blade forces, KNEW the White Mantle was Evil. So saying that Adelbern is justified in threatening to kill an ambassador offering aid and refusing to consider going to Kryta for recovery or help, is saying he somehow knew the White Mantle was evil entirely and had knowledge nobody else did.

We can say “Looking back, it’s a good thing he may have refused that help”, but we can’t say at that exact moment he had good reasons.

Also, Enslaved by Mursaat? Maybe. But it’d have survived. Also I (personally) think they wouldn’t bother heavily with Ascalon as firmly as they did Kryta. It’s a very, VERY long hike from Ascalon to the bloodstone in the Maguuma, and wouldn’t be worth it.

Hell, from what we know, they actually didn’t even bother the Ascalon settlement much at all until the Civil War went into full swing.

Not exactly. I’m saying the writer used both Adelbern’s hatred for Kryta, and his straining relationship with his son, as the means to carry the PC away from Ascalon and over the Shivs. Technically, I suppose that is “out of universe” knowledge, but that was the real reason for it anyway.

I’m not saying Adelbern knew the Mantle’s true intentions, I’m just saying it’s a good thing he didn’t let them help. Death beats slavery any day. You’re right the Mursaat may not have had the resources to really get entrenched in Ascalon, who’s to say. But they would have been subject to Mantle rule regardless.

A little off topic, but it relates to the argument:

Perhaps the most remarkable difference between Kryta and Ascalon is how they each dealt with the Charr threat. Kryta’s king fled the country, and they willingly let themselves become virtual slaves in order to survive it and see another day. Ascalon’s king basically says kitten it, we’re not running from this even if it kills us all. Minus Rurik and the refugees of course.

It’s rather telling of ANet’s future writers that they decide to validate Kryta and incriminate Ascalon. Lesson learned: safety is more important than freedom.

Kalavier.1097:

Yeah, but perhaps the statement was drakes aren’t tied to Elder Dragons species-wise.

The statement wasn’t that. The question was did GW1 already have a healthy “draconic” representation.

Yeah, but those realms weren’t touched on in the storylines. It was something you could do.

IMO, there is a difference between “Balthazar gave fire magic to the world” and “Balthazar personally approves each fireball.” One is something they did, the other is direct involvement. The gods were not directly involved with the world. Giving magic is ancient history in Tyria.

That’s also not the question. Your original question was “were they present for much?” They were, just not directly standing in front of you like you mention. It would be rather silly if a god had an active, physical role in the storyline, don’t you think?

Yet we know they weren’t worshipped by Tengu. And only humans ended up in the UW. (Other races appeared in Realm of Torment, but that was because of Abbaddon’s touch, not belief). Hell, as far as we know, only humans go to Grenth STILL. How can Grenth be the world’s god of Death if he only deals with the souls of humans?

I didn’t say they had to be worshiped to be legitimate. The Tengu worshiped their Sky but they were granted magical powers by the Six.

I can’t speak on the UW, that’s actually a good point. Perhaps the writers saw no reason to include non-PC races in there intially? I don’t know. All of that was created before Asura, Norn, and Sylvari were even a thing, so I’m not sure they saw the need to make sure the UW was populated with all the disparate races on the planet.

But it’s still a very good point, I’ll do some research on it. :-)

Daniel Handler.4816:

Gave magic is not a good way of saying that they realised some from the bloodstone.

/shrug

If I pour wine into a cup, and then give you the cup, would you say the cup gave you wine?

Equality.

Narrative direction at ANet dictated the PS must appear roughly equivalent across the orders in terms of the mentor plot.

I think it’s in the bylaws somewhere.

Kalavier.1097:

The source. That’s the question. Considering it’s written from an IN UNIVERSE perspective, it may be flawed. It definitely is considering the treaties bit, so what says the conflict bit factually 100% is true?

If there were treaties between them before, there’s little reason to assume there can’t be after. The fact that it is “in universe” just makes it more plausible. Especially when Ermenred outright states that the whole excerpt is “not fiction, but based on interpreted historical fact”. Interpreting winning a battle as winning the war would be quite a shady “interpretation” of the facts…

The one army in Kryta may be weakened. But they weren’t trying to defend a ruined kingdom (Now a wasteland) with weakened armies, ruined defenses, and an ISOLATIONIST king.

No, they were just trying to cross back over the Shivs with no supplies, no leadership, and no plan.

See, the fact Adelbern hates the Krytans so much is what dooms Ascalon. If he had accepted help or not be so hateful, in my opinion, Ascalon could’ve lasted longer. But he turned Ascalon toward Isolation and refusal to accept the situation (which was bad).

If he had accepted Krytan(Mantle) help, Ascalon would have been enslaved by the Mursaat.

Genesis.8572:

I’ll believe it when I see it. But based on what we have seen so far, I’m inclined to think that it’s going to be more of the Sylvari show.

ANet can’t afford to be as unwavering as they were around launch. Given that they threw humans a small bone with the Ascension rituals redux, I’d bet they continue to throw out bigger and bigger bones if the playerbase whines enough about that.

that last sentence sounded weird. :/