Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

Orr is both the nation and the landmass, just like Australia is both the nation and the continent.

Australia is called such because the land was named that(mix between australis and Austria) by Western explorers. When they colonized it, they took the name of the land.

GW Proph nations aren’t like that. They are named after the people, not the the land they are on. They are socio-political names, not geographic.

For instance, this line from the Forgotten wiki: “At an unknown time before 100 BE, the Forgotten were at war with the Charr on the border of what would become Ascalon” It wasn’t called Ascalon before the humans got there and named it.

Or this from the Orr wiki: “Situated on a peninsula south of Ascalon and west of the Crystal Desert…” If it was always called Orr, it would have said “Orrian peninsula” or Peninsula of Orr" or some such.

I mean, Riverside Province was Kryta “land” in GW1, now it’s technically part of Sylvari or Asuran lands…and in Magumma. That’s because Kryta isn’t in charge of it anymore. Orr had lands on the Tarnished Coast back then that were considered a part of Orr itself. At no point when you look up information about Orr, Kryta, or Ascalon in GW1 does it talk about them as merely pieces of land. They are called such because that is the area in which that particular kingdom inhabits.

People tend to think the land and the kingdom(read modern “state” here) are freely interchangeable, because that is where it was birthed I suppose. For instance, Russia isn’t called such because that’s what the land was called. The Rus lived there for so long as a dominant ethnic group that the land inherited their name.

Israel didn’t exist for almost 2 millenia, but there were still Israelites around. Not to mention that highly contested sliver of land has other names for other groups.

Konig

Arah was only part of the kingdom of Orr post Exodus. That it was inside the Orrian nation is irrelevant. Kingdom’s are mortal affairs, the Six had no need of them…they have their own realms.

Arah was where the gods set up shop to populate Tyria(the continent) with humans, it makes sense that the first area is around there. But you still haven’t answered the question of why the swords are now “divine” in nature, when there’s no mention of that in GW1?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing ever claimed they had human origins. Simply Orrian origins.

Arah was part of Orr even before the Exodus. It was just a Forbidden City-esque situation (per an old interview).

Again, Orr was a nation, not a landmass. You wouldn’t call a Deldrimor Dwarf a “Shiverpeakean”… If someone in GW2 said they had a Krytan bow, you wouldn’t assume it was Lionguard or Whispers…even though they are technically located inside Kryta.

Arah was not part of the Orrian nation, and the gods were not Orrian. Arah was its own city inhabited by the gods until the Exodus…at which point Orrians took up stewardship of it. The swords were specifically Orrian in nature. If someone simply thinks that means divine by proximity, they are making one helluva assumption.

As it stands, there’s nothing in GW1 to mark them as wrought by the gods. And simply dating to “before the exodus” does not imply anything.

Diovid.9506:

Tutanchamon.2190:

Yes it was mentioned in Ghosts of Ascalon, which takes place in year 1324, so it collapsed in 1324/early 1325. Still want to get lore on this.

Whether it appeared in the book and in dialogues or not, it was changed to being the arts district in the end. That might be considered a retcon. However, as it stands now, in lore there never was a Canthan district.

Ikr!

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Prophecies actually had a lot of nods towards Nightfall. We encountered Turai Ossa and heard of his pilgrimage, there was a mission called “Elona Reach”, we fought back the titans at “Abaddon’s Mouth”.

They weren’t “nods towards Nightfall”. They were all plot threads that Jeff used to explain his Nightfall story. The name “Abaddon”(like Ossa and Elona) was just a place name Jess used, in this case, to describe a mission/location. Jeff, as any good writer would do, expanded on that minuscule plot name and made it into something spectacular.

It would be the same thing as someone coming up with a history behind the name “Komalie”. Perhaps making it into an ancient magical personage of some sort(like Odran) who was responsible for creating that gate. Or whatever.

Creating a backstory for a pre-existing name doesn’t mean it was always there, it just means it’s there now.

draxynnic.3719:

It was a bit of both. They had an idea that something was ultimately behind the events of Prophecies and Nightfall, but didn’t flesh out exactly what it was until Nightfall started development. So they were able to make it work without retconning anything but a piece from an unreliable narrator – and that retcon was, in fact, made part of the plot.

They did not.

Prophecies and Factions were written not just as stand-alone campaigns, but stand-alone stories. I know this for a fact. Any “Abaddon linking” of the three stories began entirely with Nightfall. Although I would agree that it was done well.

Konig

Yeah, I’m aware of the pre-existing “magic” of Tyria, any Ritualist will tell you that.

I’m more concerned with the swords origins. Are they supposed to be from Arah, and not Orr then? And I assume they are supposed to have divine origins now, and not human?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On the sword origins:
Rytlock: I’ve researched the ritual, and I learned a lot about Ascalonian history. This story began a thousand years ago, when this ritual was first formulated by the humans’ gods—the Six.
<char>; Please, go on.
Rytlock: The Six gave them magic. At the same time, they also gave one of them a magical crown and two magical swords to protect the kingdom.

So…let me get this straight.

I assume Rytlock means 1326 years ago when he says “a thousand”, referring to 1 BE. Since according to GW1 the swords predate the Exodus, and according to Rytlock they were given at the same time magic was given. That leaves a single possible year in which they were wrought and given to “one of them” to protect the kingdom…which at the time Tyrian humanity was one nation(Orr independence in 2 AE, Kryta in 358 AE).

Who is “one of them”? If it is Doric(who was king of human Tyria at that time), then it could only have been given to him right before he died with the bloodstones splitting. In which case the 3 items became hereditary for Ascalon monarchs after that?? And if they were given by the gods to Doric’s line, then the gods specifically imbued them with the Foefire spell so that sometime in the distant future a king could use it “protect the kingdom” by creating a perpetually re-spawning ghost army??? It doesn’t make any sense. Besides, the swords are said to be from Orr, not Arah. The crown is a new thing.

Zaxares.5419:

Sohothin (along with Magdaer, King Adelbern’s sword) are ancient magical weapons from Orr, and I believe they were constructed during a time when the Six Gods still physically lived in Arah. If that’s true, then it stands to reason that Sohothin is powered by divine magic, which seems to be especially potent against dragon minions.

Except that Arah wasn’t technically part of Orr, it was its own divine city inside it. The Orrians didn’t live there until year 0. Everyone seems to think the two are the same. Orr, like Ascalon, was a nation, not the land itself.

If the Orrians didn’t take stewardship of Arah until after the Exodus, and the swords predate the Exodus, then why are they imbued with divine power?

lordkrall.7241:

Funny how people seems to have an issue with everything (which is not even the case) being about the Dragons and yet the same people usually praise how good Guild Wars 1 was. Despite everything (and that was basically actually everything) was about Abaddon.

That’s because everything wasn’t about Abaddon…until Nightfall. They retroactively made him responsible for both Shiro and the Searing.

Cuddy.6247:

Obsidian.1328:

I would argue Ascension doesn’t exist in GW2.

You’d be right. It doesn’t exist…yet.

The three glyphs on the wall above the shining portal though are the exact same as the three glyphs found at Augury Rock. Then they tease us with a ghost that’s the spitting image of The Ghostly Hero? That isn’t coincidental.

Not coincidental at all. But even after the “Echo” trials, it still doesn’t exist in GW2…yet, of course. In the Priory, even Ogden says that the PC isn’t Ascended, merely that they are recreating the ritual to get at another thing: Divine Fire.

Rather strange ANet used a mechanic that was historically used to become Ascended… to open a door. My only guess is that the cave used to be another actual place of Ascension back in the day. Heck, maybe there’s dozens of them littered throughout Tyria and we just haven’t found them. You know, like old post offices.

Has no one done a GW1-GW2 map overlay of the cave location yet?

Ascension itself is intimately related to “the Old Gods” and without that relation it wouldn’t be the same thing, regardless of what gameplay mechanics it brings with it.

Being Chosen has a lot more to do with the Flameseeker Prophecies than to Ascension itself. Granted, the Chosen from GW1 have to become Ascended to fulfill that particular prophecy, but Ascension need not exist only for the Chosen…as long as it’s related to the old gods somehow. :/

Ascension(in GW1) can be simply described as “a state of communion with the Old Gods”, and all the gameplay mechanics therein partially characterize that communion. The gods were the alpha brokers of power in Tyria back then, and even the end-game content of the game itself(before EotN) all revolved around that: HoH, UW, FoW, etc.

The old gods are no longer the apex divine beings in Tyria for GW2, they aren’t really even part of the equation anymore aside from having a small role in the history of Tyrian magic.

I would argue Ascension doesn’t exist in GW2.

lordkrall.7241:

Liz.1497:

an artistic angle. Balance, silhouette, texture, how well it matches the other items ingame, how much it appeals to certain target groups. The same way comic sans isn’t a nice font and Helvetica is.

And who are you to decide that?

Some people find Picasso’s work to be great, while others consider it absolute rubbish. Why should one opinion be more correct than the other?

Ikr!!

Everything is relative. Period.

Ahh crap…

“Ascension” in Prophecies and Factions(counting Weh No Su as a legit alternative) served both the lore and gameplay function of those two campaigns well. But if the lore for it wasn’t there, then ANet would have had to have called the mechanics of it(switching 2ndary class, access to Mists) something else entirely.

Whether or not it was written as a way to explain the mechanic or not is kind of irrelevant at this point…ANet completely ignored the idea of needing Ascension(the lore) to do Ascended stuff(the mechanics) with Nightfall.

Seems rather silly to debate the issue when ANet itself simply uses the term as common nomenclature for its top-tier gear in this game. Why care if they don’t?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Abaddon had one

Thank you Aaron, I missed that somehow. My apologies.

Each of the gods in GW1 had their own “info intro” called Scriptures of Dwayna, Melandru, etc. Even Kormir got one added, although Abaddon’s was never seen…for obvious reasons.

They were probably meant as short, mythic introductions into the character and history of each god. Perhaps the writer wanted to reiterate Dwayna’s role as merciful to humanity and used Doric again as an example. /shrugs

Her last known whereabouts in GW1 were supposed to be outside Ascalon City, waiting to get an audience with Adelbern. Some peeps say he had her killed…cuz he’s a mean old man and stuph.

I’m sure ANet has her in their “ran out of ideas” box somewhere.

Originally, there was supposed to be a Warden(beastmaster type) and Marksman(archer type) in GW2, but they later scrapped that idea and instead merged them into one.

/sadpanda

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Also, with the prospect of the mentality of “recovering refers to returning to a normal state of health” – Ascalon was always battling charr, pretty much nonstop in fact. This is why Ascalon is said to be a grim and militant nation in the Prophecies manual compared to the other nations.

So if Ascalon was returning to its normal state, then that means it was returning to a deadlock with the charr – from being pushed back by them.

Depends on where you determine “normal” to be. Before the Charr resurgence, all of the Ascalon Basin was peaceful. Even though northward expansion from the Wall didn’t start until relatively recently in Ascalon’s timeline, there were many, many long years of silence from the Charr. The Charr occupation of “the Northlands”(i.e. anything north of the Wall) happened immediately before the Searing. Before the year 1070, Drascir, Surmia, even Duke Gabon’s Estate were in relative peace.

So, from that point of view, Ascalon’s “normal state” is the entirety of the Ascalon Basin, and not a “deadlock” with the Charr along the wall…as you put it.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Obsidian.1328:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

…if you choose to read it that way then you’re going against what is actually supported textually.

And what, pray tell, in the entire text of Empire Divided doesn’t support my argument?

“At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr” recovering refers to returning to a normal state of health, it does not in any way imply that Ascalon had pushed back the Charr, had beaten the Charr, or anything of that like. It implies quite simply that they’re doing better than they were at the time of the Searing, which is not difficult. It’s also worth pointing out that the article is written by Loremaster Ermendred, who lived in Kryta during the events of Prophecies. If you’re recovering from a conflict then it doesn’t at all imply that you’ve solved the problem. It’s actually near synonymous to the idiom ‘to lick one’s wounds’ which means “to recover from a defeat or a rebuke.” We know that in the idiom’s case it is almost always in reference to the loser. Losers/victims can recover, it doesn’t mean they’ve made a massive comeback.

If you really want to argue it then sure I can’t say with absolutely certainty that the text disproves your argument, but it in no way supports it. What it does support is the idea that Ascalon is still a ruined kingdom, but is on the mend. It speaks from a specific point in history and everything that Prophecies set up was suggesting that this wasn’t something Ascalon was ever going to fully recover from, despite your insistence that it’s all because the writers changed and decided to take some radical new spin on the story.

Most of western Europe “recovered” from being roflstomped by Germany’s war machine in WWII, yet none of them lost the war. It all depends on the context. Which, in this case, supports the idea that the war was presumed to be over at the time Empire Divided’s writing. That’s not to say that all the Charr were routed. On the contrary, I’m sure they still had numbers up north. But the war itself was over. Ascalon wasn’t recovering from the Searing, they already did that. They were recovering from the whole conflict itself…i.e. the war.

As for your Ermenred quip, his appearance in LA is referenced to in the Factions Prima guide somewhere. He also had a funny April Fools Day occupation as well. ;-)

FlamingFoxx.1305:

…if you choose to read it that way then you’re going against what is actually supported textually.

And what, pray tell, in the entire text of Empire Divided doesn’t support my argument?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Letters_from_Togo

These are the letters Togo said he sent to Mhenlo at the end of Zen Daiju (second Shing Jea island mission). They are dated 23 and 25 Suzhen. Sezhen is the last month of the Season of the Scion.

The events of Shing Jea happened during the end of the Prophecies campaign.

My point, however, remains unchanged.

Recovering != victory

And even during the plot of Prophecies, it was clear that Ascalon was not winning – they were recovering their losses. The beginning of Prophecies post-Searing in fact starts with this: the charr have been mostly silent on the northern front, allowing Ascalonians a chance to regroup, and is the entire premise of the very first post-Searing mission.

The very beginning of Prophecies deals with Ascalon recovering from the war with the charr – recovering from the Searing – the first mission including wondering why the northern front has been so quiet. But it is no victory.

So again, recovering != victory

Agree on your first point.

On your second, it is somewhat a matter of literary interpretation. I could just as easily say “recovering from the war =/= recovering from the Searing”, they are not mutually inclusive. Or, alternatively, a woman “recovering from a pregnancy” isn’t in the middle of it…the pregnancy is over. Depends on how you read it, but more importantly, how it was intended.

This is why you can look into what else is being said in the whole text to discern it. Seems incredibly silly that Ascalon is reopening treaties and trade routes, sending out historians, and, in particularly, sending their heroes abroad if Ermenred meant the war was still on when he used the term “recovering”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though at the time of the writing of An Empire Divided, I don’t think Prophecies had finished, since lore indicates that the events on Shing Jea Island – which are mentioned in An Empire Divided – happened before the events of Prophecies came to a conclusion.

An Empire Divided is written in-universe perspective before Prophecies is completed… during the course of the Prophecies campaign.

According the the GW timeline, they both happened in the same year. The initial events on Shing Jea may have started before Proph, but they certainly didn’t end before it. The PC(you) from Proph enters the storyline in Kaineng City, along with Devona, Aidan, Eve, Cynn, and Mhenlo…who was specifically summoned by Togo to help:

“And there is something else. Something darker. My colleague Master Togo is troubled by reports of a strange plague afflicting the creatures of the Shing Jea countryside, a plague that causes freakish mutations and transforms most anything it touches into hideous, savage monsters. Should this so-called Affliction spread to humans the result could be catastrophic—not just for Cantha, but for the entire world. Soon I must depart for my home in Ascalon, but it is with a hopeful spirit that Master Togo has told me he expects help to arrive soon in the form of a young hero who was instrumental in dealing with the Flameseeker Prophecies. I wish Mhenlo and Togo the best of luck, but this new challenge is not one for the old. Perhaps someday I will return to Cantha, but for now, I must bid farewell to the Empire of the Dragon.”
~Ermenred, Empire Divided

Only the events on Shing Jea happened before the conclusion of Proph(happening simultaneously of it, probably post-Ascension). And that “starter” island is the Canthan equivalent of pre-Searing, so it makes sense both as a gameplay mechanic and chronologically to insert Proph characters into the Canthan storyline after that starter area is complete.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Obsidian.1328:

Then why did Ascalon win the war?

They didn’t. A single, out of game, source, about something else entirely, made mention of “recovering after the conflict”- which does not necessarily mean they won the war- and even if it was meant that way, in the game it was later shown that they most certainly weren’t winning. I get that you have some deep-seated issues with the direction GW2 went in, and I even sympathize to a certain point, but in this case it just doesn’t work. Even ignoring that you’re trying to hold one out-of-game line over numerous in-game indications, it wouldn’t make sense for Ascalon to win the war at that point- their food supplies had been reduced to whatever stores survived the Searing, the army would’ve taken heavy casualties in the same and been further reduced with Rurik’s schism, and as we later found out (although I’m sure you’ll argue that such ideas originated with the later teams) the charr still had plentifully fertile lands from which to feed and breed their forces. It was either a miracle or simply badly thought out that Adelbern managed to last for 20 years. Outright victory? Nothing short of Melandru and Balthazar’s direct intervention could’ve managed that.

“Out of game” in text only, Ermenred was an actual in-game npc. But you’re right it is a sole reference:

“Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Arguing that is how it was meant is my whole point…everyone knows that’s not how it was later expanded on. I’m simply pointing out that the later writers most likely didn’t honor the original writer’s intent. If that is true, then you can’t really use anything in Proph as a guideline for future Adelbern’s character…as Ascalon’s survival(and Adelbern’s initial persona) was simply dropped in favor of an alternate ending. As a continuation writer, picking and choosing which themes and plots you like and dropping the rest with little regard to original intent is not just bad practice, but dishonest.

After all, no one at ANet today came up with Prophecies’ narrative foundation…someone else did.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The choice was either stay and die (oh look, that happened) or leave and maybe survive.

Then why did Ascalon win the war?

lordkrall.7241:

Wasn’t the choices basically: Stay and more or less guarantee the death of everyone or seek aid and risk the death of everyone?

No. What gave you that idea?

The various GW1 human cultures melted into a single “legit” GW2 culture for one reason only: the addition of 4 playable non-human races…Norn just being “larger humans” notwithstanding(they shape-change and stuph).

Had ANet not “dumbed down” humanity, these forums would have been awash in cries of human favoritism. Not a smart move from a marketing point of view.

The only other option would have been to(instead of erasing/ignoring/miniaturizing non-Krytan human cultures) simply add the new races to the periphery of the GW1 geo-cultural map. Given how detailed and beautiful GW2 landscapes are, that would have required much more time and effort on the devs part…the world map would have had to have been 2, 3, or even 4 times bigger for that. It was probably way outside of their developmental scope and scale for a game of this kind.

Well…that and the GW2 devs wanted to forge their own Guild Wars game and story, and not simply add on to someone else’s.

Serophous.9085:

Lord Erik.6903:

Rurik really didn’t have to leave Ascalon. He chose to though. I remember doing quests for Adlebern. He really wasn’t that bad a guy at the time, but if you read the book ghosts of Ascalon you meet a ghost who was put to death right before the foefire so he kept his sanity unlike the other ghosts, and he says the loss of his son was a huge blow to him, and the lose of his kingdom drove him over the edge.

It was a differences in beliefs. Rurik, being out on the field, believed that ascalon didnt stand a chance(and was right), and wanted to flee with the survivors to kryta, rebuild their strength, and take ascalon back one day. Adelbern believed they could still win. You, as the hero, just didn’t have a choice on who you wanted to believe, but were dragged along with Rurik because of plot.

Not true.

Ascalon was written to have won the war, as was referenced to in Factions’ An Empire Divided. Rurik was actually wrong in running, he merely served as the plot device to drive the PC away from Ascalon and towards Kryta(among other things). The problem is that the original writers never got around to revisting the Ascalon storyline until a new continuity crew took over at ANet. They saw that Ascalon was never truly resolved, and quickly took the opportunity to insert their own alternative plot into the storyline.

Depends on the game.

In GW1, he was a good guy(albeit a poor father).

In GW2, he was a monster.

In GW1, The father/king-son/prince argument that resulted in Rurik’s banishment was a plot device used to advance the PC(and the storyline) over the Shiverpeaks and away from Ascalon. It also served to set up Ruriks own death and “reanimation” at the hands of Khilbron at the end of Prophecies.

In order to make the fight against Rurik more emotionally appealing to the PC, they had to endear his character to the players. This is why he accompanies you on so many missions, even a few in pre-Searing. ANet could have, of course, used other ways to accomplish this, but adding rebelling against his own father and king proved to be a decent plot avenue. It makes your flight away from Ascalon more believable and accepting because you are “saving” Ascalons and living to fight another day.

Without that, why would any Ascalon(which is arguably what every single PC was who started in Prophecies) want to run away from their home at such a desperate hour? ANet certainly didn’t want to associate the PC with any notions of cowardice or fear, so they simply gave the story a means to bow out of the war honorably.

Adelbern came across as a royal kitten, but such is the nature of the story.

For GW2, ANet figured it wouldn’t hurt to put all the other nails in Adelbern’s coffin, since one was already in it…so to speak. Not to mention the Charr needed a home area like every other race. Turning both Adelbern into a villian, and Ascalon into Charr homeland, was a natural product of a new game with new devs and, most importantly, a new vision for the Guild Wars storyline.

Simply put, Adelbern was a narrative fall-guy. And I don’t mean the cool Lee Majors variety. ;-)

It’s not coincidence that when you search “War of Ascalon Independence” and “Ascalon Insurrection” you get the history of the Human-Charr conflict. The Charr were pegged to reign over Ascalon since EotN. “Evil sorcerer-king” Adelbern(which I personally never understood, he was always only a warrior) simply made it easier, and more accepting, for ANet to accomplish that.

lordkrall.7241:

I am not saying it was grindy. I am saying that it required a bit of grind in order to access it, while Guild Wars 2 does not have something like that. And as such it is silly to refer to GW1 when shouting about how grindy Guild Wars 2 is.

I believe those “shouts” are about non-story grinds like Legendaries and Ascended stuff.

lordkrall.7241:

Sure you can get it by doing quests (some of them multiple times, since doing every quest once does not give you enough in the case of the Luxons at least), but it would still require a bit of grind. More so than anything in Guild Wars 2 when it comes to the main storyline.

It gives you 8,500 Luxon faction. The remaining 1,500 you can get under an hour just by strolling through an explorable area with a blessing killing stuff. Please don’t try and claim the GW storyline was grindy, that’s just silly. The titles, skins, and rep points were grindy, but not the basic storyline.

lordkrall.7241:

Ayrilana.1396:

That’s only if your character was created in that campaign. If you came from prophecies then you didn’t need to farm ranks.

While it appears to be true for Nightfall (was such a long time since I played that campaign so checked the wiki) in Factions you are still required to get the 10 000 faction points in order to pass Befriending the X quests even if you were not part of that campaign originally.

Accumulating 10k faction for that quest was stupidly easy. You could do it any number of ways, like completing normal quests in each respective region. It was designed to be completed nominally through normal gameplay.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Rhaegar.1203:

To be honest, I don’t think their longevity plays any factor, seeing that they were alive the last time the ED were active and were still alive during Guild Wars 1.

You can argue that the Mursaat in GW1 were the descendants of the ones 10,000 years ago, but that race strikes me as one that, much like the Human Gods, have certain aura of divinity or power about them.

Although I do agree that the White Mantle, and also their masters in the shadows have greatly diminished the danger they posed, due to their dwindling power and numbers.

How does longevity NOT matter. At the end of GW1 there was only 1 known Mursaat left in existence; so it’s not like we are going to see the descendants of that Mursaat unless Mursaat have the ability to simply replicate themselves…

“…only one known Mursaat left…”

None ever made the trip(that we know of) to the Isle of Janthir, where they are supposed to be from. So it follows that there can possibly be many more up there.

Chrispy.5641:

Wanderer.3248:

Chrispy.5641:

my (simplified) opinion….

I think its referencing the fact that the universe is a complex machine, a computer (eternal alchemy) :::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

A marvellous mechanism, but limited by over-simplification and lacking in finesse.

An interesting metaphor.

One interesting about the Mechanism was that it showed every Known object in the universe at the time of its creation, and their positions relative to earth.

Could the Antikytheria be showing the same?

Sounds like ANet is trying to revitalize the Science Fantasy subgenre.

To be fair, they’ve already had a dozen or so subgenre’s, what’s one more?

Vix.6730:

Obsidian.1328:

This is one of the oldest GW2 gripes in existence, sorry you came about it just now. :/

The reason WvW is included for world completion is simple: WvW was never intended to be competitive.

ANet initially wanted it to be a casual, friendly PvE area with some mild PvP elements. Obviously that didn’t materialize, as WvW is highly competitive…zergfests notwithstanding. Why ANet never decided to actually remove the WvW requirement for world completion is beyond me. Then again, there’s a lot of things they did that I won’t understand.

Short answer: unintended consequences.

Well said. IMO World vs World was going to be the equivalent of AB in GW1 but that didn’t pan out.

I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered ANet(pre-launch) saying that they were trying to model WvW after the old DAoC RvR. How much they succeeded in that is highly debatable, but I’m fairly sure they weren’t trying to mimic GW1 combat arenas.

For some reason, GW2 ANet despises the idea of GvG-style(or AB for that matter) pvp.

drax

Interesting, and well-written, rp quip.

It still rather condoning of selective narratives though. It’s almost as if ANet purposely let the “old, barbaric Charr” conquer Ascalon only to immediately “civilize” them, grant them 9/10’s ownership, and then actually berate their own ancestors just to provide moral plausibility to them being there in the first place.

It’s kind of like if Germany had suddenly stopped fighting after taking over mainland Europe(with the purpose of keeping indefinitely) and saying, with humble aplomb:
“Here, Here! We don’t want to fight anymore!?! Killing is barbaric and cruel!! For goodness sake, let us be friends now…and be at peace.”

/eyerolls

It’s the “burden” Adelbern carries to symbolize the burden of story plausibility between GW1 & 2.

=D

This is one of the oldest GW2 gripes in existence, sorry you came about it just now. :/

The reason WvW is included for world completion is simple: WvW was never intended to be competitive.

ANet initially wanted it to be a casual, friendly PvE area with some mild PvP elements. Obviously that didn’t materialize, as WvW is highly competitive…zergfests notwithstanding. Why ANet never decided to actually remove the WvW requirement for world completion is beyond me. Then again, there’s a lot of things they did that I won’t understand.

Short answer: unintended consequences.

Dustfinger.9510:

But a-net doesn’t do that.

Agree to disagree then.

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s fun to come up with possible reasons for all of that, it really is. But that’s not why ANet presented the races that way.

Each race nominally follows popular fantasy parallels in order to appeal to the differing preferences of the player base. Norn=viking drunkard, Asuran=gnome mad scientist, Charr=steampunk cat, Sylvari= wood elf, Human=generic medieval human.

ANet didn’t write the stories of the Tyrian races with a logical extrapolation of GW1 Tyria in mind. They wrote the stories of the Tyrian races with a simple marketing ploy in mind, then crammed them into the Tyrian narrative.

While we can absolutely identify arch-types from an out of game perspective (And we can point to multiple arch-types for the races. e.g.: norn aren’t just drunk Vikings, they are fantasy giants), it doesn’t mean that there isn’t lore behind those design decisions. Case in point, A-net has confirmed that the engineer class comes from the charr and has spread to all the other playable races due to their witnessing the effectiveness of it in combat. Pointing out the design decisions doesn’t mean much because all decisions are ultimately design decisions. So it’s applicable to every aspect of the game.

They’ve wanted to make an Engi class since Factions, the lore decision to link its birth to the Charr is a no-brainer considering there are probably more rusty sprockets in the Citadel than there are Charr in Tyria.

I would counter that design decisions means a lot if you want anyone to take your narrative even moderately seriously. Specifically creating the lore so that it bends to every single game design mechanic is backwards thinking. That would be like Lucas(in the modern era) working on the movie Return of the Jedi, and trying to make sure an ISD and a Mon Cal Cruiser have fairly equal firepower so that when the video game comes out both sides are “balanced” in the capital ship department. That would be insanely silly.

GW1 ANet once stated that one Charr is the rough combat equivalent to 2-4 humans? The exact number may be off a bit, but that obviously isn’t true now. Did the Charr somehow get a lot weaker after 250 years? Of course not. But it would be just as insanely silly of them to have that true while having the Charr as a playable race. So they bend the lore(in this case, letting it die out) to have a balanced game.

The lore in GW2 will always and forever be the slave to game mechanics.

Prysin.8542:

Obsidian.1328:

The RF change actually makes it easier to evade almost all of the burst, the channel is that short now.

Also, it’s less viable as a stealth tracker.

Which is kinda ok, since it will most likely decimate a thief prior to actually entering stealth.

Unless they evade it. Since nerfing stealth, thieves have a ton of evades nowadays.

The RF change actually makes it easier to evade almost all of the burst, the channel is that short now.

Also, it’s less viable as a stealth tracker.

Dustfinger.9510:

I think that’s kind of the point. humanity didn’t develop in certain areas because they has always depended on the gods to do that work for them. The charr made a deliberate descision to stop looking for ‘godly’ help and find another way of doing things because they were forced to. Now the humans are forced to but they are forced to without the drastic cultural shift that the charr went through.

Asura evolve but they are like WarHammer dwarves. The machine of their cultural system is designed to evolve so much more slowly. Sylvari have a working machine (the Dream) that allows them to instantly be competitive by bringing them up to speed with the other already established races. And the norn also evolve so much more slowly because they are so individualistic.

After the singular-in-purpose, war driven charr, humans are really the playable species that has the most potential to evolve independently. But do to their alliances, they aren’t forced to. That is a double edged sword. It means they have access to get other races technology but it doesn’t force them to adapt as quickly as the charr had to when they had only themselves to depend on.

It’s fun to come up with possible reasons for all of that, it really is. But that’s not why ANet presented the races that way.

Each race nominally follows popular fantasy parallels in order to appeal to the differing preferences of the player base. Norn=viking drunkard, Asuran=gnome mad scientist, Charr=steampunk cat, Sylvari= wood elf, Human=generic medieval human.

ANet didn’t write the stories of the Tyrian races with a logical extrapolation of GW1 Tyria in mind. They wrote the stories of the Tyrian races with a simple marketing ploy in mind, then crammed them into the Tyrian narrative.

I have to admit, I didn’t get the reference until now. Probably because I keep thinking the last RL pop culture reference was the last one. And they might actually…you know…create a story element that has something, anything, to do with Tyria itself instead of basing every new plot device on either rehashed fantasy tropes or RL pop culture.

Suddenly Seymoooouuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Konig- May I share that popcorn with you?

“Those Meddling Kids”

Lily.1935:

Obsidian.1328:

Think about it.

The Rit summoned spirits that were more or less human in appearance. In fact, the spirits were supposed to be ancestors whom the Rit communed with to help them in battle and such. They would have had to design spirit skins for each specific race in order to appease everyone. For one thing, that really wouldn’t work for the Sylvari…there’s not exactly a lot of them gone. For another, that doesn’t really jive well with racial belief systems.

At any rate, the Engi uses similar techniques now and is generally considered its “mechanical” inheritor.

The spirits the ritualist summoned were more aspects of some sort of feeling or emotion or idea. You had Anger, Wonderlust along with restoration. While the ranger spirits were more spirits of the seasons and elements, Ritualist spirits were different. And the only named spirits the Ritualist called on never actually had their own design. They were urns. Like Attuned Was Songkai. I don’t see why other races couldn’t call on the heroes from other races. Such as Jora or Pyre.

A side note. The engineer, as fun as it is, never filled the same niche the ritualist did for me. They don’t feel similar enough to me at all. The engineer is much more impulsive and chaotic then the ritualist was. The Ritualist was very slow at times and seemed to feel rather distanced in terms of the fight. What I mean is the ritualist rarely got into the middle of a fight. Weather you used offensive spirits or defensive spirits the ritualist could be seen out of the fight, preparing for the next as their spirits did the work.

“The Ritualists are one of the oldest known professions on Tyria. Being unique to Cantha, they have existed long before the Exodus and the gods granting magic to the races. Before magic, the Ritualists relied upon a power similar to magic, granted to them by their powerful ancestors whom maintained a connection to their descendants. Through their spirits, the Ritualists were able to practice magic, or something close to it. When magic was granted by the gods, many of the original abilities were strengthened and merged into their modern form. Though still relying on the power of the dead, their original skills are no longer a visible part of the profession.” ~GW wiki

The disconnect is in the nature of GW2 gameplay. The combat now is not only more mobile and action-oriented, but it’s also designed for ranged to be at a disadvantage in combat. Not to mention the healing and tank part of the “healing/support/tank” niche that Rits filled in GW1 is gone.

ipan.4356:

This has to be the best thread I’ve ever read on these forums.

I have been playing GW2 for over a year now, and this is the first time I’ve heard of the “Biconics”.

I didn’t know what there were talking about either, I had to Google a Reddit post to find out.

• A-Iconics = Rytlock, Logan, Caithe, Eir, Zojja
• B-Iconics = Rox, Braham, Jory, Kas, Taimi

Apparently they were intro’d partially to avoid timeline confusion with the Personal Story PC’s.

On topic:
I think they are rather fitting to GW2’s adolescent tone.

Think about it.

The Rit summoned spirits that were more or less human in appearance. In fact, the spirits were supposed to be ancestors whom the Rit communed with to help them in battle and such. They would have had to design spirit skins for each specific race in order to appease everyone. For one thing, that really wouldn’t work for the Sylvari…there’s not exactly a lot of them gone. For another, that doesn’t really jive well with racial belief systems.

At any rate, the Engi uses similar techniques now and is generally considered its “mechanical” inheritor.

You can always just go play something similar…like Super Mario Brothers.

You think GW2 devs are bad? It’s been almost 30 years and they still have fixed that +99 free lives turtle-jumpin glitch.

Bathos.6341:

My feeling is this, most charr went along with the war to retake their homeland. The attacks on Kryta and Orr, were the flame legion’s doing. This is the main reason for the change in attitude from “Destroy all humans!” in GW1 to “Get off my land!” in GW2 Flame legion still hates humanity just as much as they did back in GW1 as their book “One hundred and one reasons why all Humans should die, Vol III” found in iron marches demonstrates.

And this book too?:

• Book 1
  How To: Conduct a Searing Ritual
  Now with even more recipes for destruction!

Make no mistake, all Charr were equally on board for humanity’s annihilation in Prophecies. That’s just how they were written. This “It’s all the Flame Legion’s doing!” is a plot device used by GW2 to give them an easy out on making the Charr a playable race. There’s not even any mention of them until EotN, which is the narrative prequel to this game.

Now with even more recipes for destruction! … Think about the tone of that line for a minute. Do you really think GW2 ANet thinks of GW1 as much more than a silly story not to be taken very seriously? They don’t because they don’t.