Guild Wars 2

Genesis.8572:

D: That’s a bit of a false equivalence. Other races can have backstory without them constantly kittening on humanity, and that’s the issue at stake. But little chance of that when Jeff Grubb loves his asura (just reskinned versions of his Dragonlance gnomes) and Ree Soesbee loves her sylvari.

Jeff also birthed the Spelljammer AD&D setting. Reading up on that also helps to explain the Eternal Alchemy better and “modern” GW2 magic.

Ree helped with the Norn too I think, I could be wrong. She’s been really off the grid for a few years…

Kalavier.1097:

I’ll look it but, but I recall that Drakes are actually not related to dragons such as Glint or the elder dragons. Remember, GW doesn’t follow typical fantasy creatures exactly. Incubuses are bat like beings. Bats are more like big lizards. What says Drakes are explicitly tied to dragons?

The wiki says drakes are tied to dragons…

That’s not what I asked either. “Magic being around” is not a direct act of the gods during that period. Sure, it was released by them perhaps, but it’s not like to cast lightning I HAVE to pray to Dwayna. Balthazar doesn’t personally spawn every fireball thrown. The way I took your statement was as if GW2 literally kicked the gods to the curb and in GW1 they were actively involved in the world. Which they really weren’t. FoW and UW is about the most, and that’s simply spawning a portal.

FoW and UW were supposed to be Balthazars and Grenths personal realm in the Mists. And it’s not a direct link like an AD&D cleric praying to his deity, but it is similar. The gods gave magic to Tyria(most of it anyway), and then curtailed its use because of Doric’s plee and split magic into 4 schools to limit its destructive power. Basically, every time you cast a spell in GW1 it was because the gods let you.

You are arguing semantics. When I say “Human gods” I OBVIOUSLY refer to the SIX GODS, who directly tie to HUMANITY. Not that they ARE HUMAN. But they are the GODS OF THE HUMANS.

They were the gods of everyone on Tyria, whether they believed in them or not. Why? Because they gave magic to the world that everyone used equally, Charr, human, and Aloe alike. Oh and there were no other gods in Tyria…until GW2. I’m sure humanity never mentions it because of that whole “human bias” cop-out.

Daniel Handler.4816:

In Gw1 http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Map-Travel_Inventor we have this terrible part of lore.

LOL Is that for real? That’s hilarious. And I agree terrible.

Kalavier.1097:

Context matters.

Like, “The army recovered from the defeat at this battle, and started a counter-attack”

Good example in GW1 is the great northern wall mission. The charr pushed the human forces out, then they RECOVERED and counter attacked successfully, regaining the ruined wall defense points.

In a sense, fits the line from that factions thing perfectly. Ascalon recovered from a charr assault. War still was going on though. Conflict doesn’t have to mean the entire war. Still, it’s written by a guy who is in Cantha, lives in Kryta, and is REALLY doubtful to be in the inner circle of Adelbern. As I’ve tried pointing out to you repeatedly, the “Making new treaties with Kryta and Elonia for trade” Doesn’t hold up AT ALL. We know Adelbern refuses to accept aid from Kryta, and Kryta is, at end of Prophecies, leaderless essentially.

Yes, context does matter. He says they recovered from the Charr conflict, not a Charr conflict.

Where’s the ambiguity?

Which actually don’t tell us ingame that the war is won. It simply says the Titan threat is over, but Ascalon’s armies and defenses were weakened and withered and basically Adelbern’s stubbornness was the only thing ‘keeping’ Ascalon alive at that point.

So the Charr army was weakened and withered after Orr and Kryta, as the Ascalons were, yet it is without a doubt an eventuality that Ascalon falls to the Charr.

You haven’t made a convincing argument for that.

Kalavier.1097:

Two completely unique dragons who as far as we know, actually at that time had no ‘peers’ in terms of dragons. There wasn’t THAT much in terms of widespread dragon stuff.

Drakes are dragons too.

Which seems more like a “They dumped magic on the world” thing. Given how basically EVERYBODY, Dwarves, Charr, humans, Forgotton, Naga, etc used magic widely. I’m talking what did the gods do in the first three campaigns directly in that timeframe.

That’s not what you asked, you asked if they were present that much. Pre-Exodus, physically no, but indirectly through magic they were everywhere. Not to mention the FoW and the UW were all “godly” places.

Grenth is half-human, if you want to be specific. The point is, if sounds like you are saying the gods were VERY involved in the events of GW1 (they weren’t), and were kicked to the curb for GW2.

Yes, half human. He usurped Dhumm on Tyria sometime between humanities arrival and the Exodus. Dhumm, along with Abaddon and the rest, came from the Mists and there’s no mention of them actually being human, only that they brought humans to Tyria.

How would you have it in GW2 if the gods were still very much, and very heavily involved in human life? Norn have the spirits of the wild, but what do Charr, Asura, or Sylvari have?

Seriously? I would never have had Norn or Asura or Sylvari at all. Why not Dwarves and Tengu and Centaurs?? They were already set up to take the playable-race role, why pass them over?(granted the Charr they kept). To me that just screams I don’t want to merely add to someone else narrative, I want to make my own. Oh but I’m still going to use his stuff as a foundation because it already has a fanbase!
Where does it say that new playable races have to have their own gods when they were using the Six’ magic all along? Because they favor humans perhaps?? One of the major themes of Proph is of humanities punishment for their arrogance and pride, it’s rather easy to see that the gods no longer “favored” humans over the other races.

Kalavier.1097:

“During the Charr invasion after King Jadon fled the throne, Saul and the White Mantle managed to turn the tide of the war against the Charr, sneaking into their camp in the dead of night and assassinating their leaders.

According to official Mantle records, Saul was killed in an ambush during the Charr retreat."

I’d take that as a “The army wasn’t utterly destroyed” From the GW1 wiki white mantle page.

That doesn’t say they went back to Ascalon. And Saul didn’t die then, he was carried off by the Mantle never to be seen again. Yes, the Charr weren’t wiped out, but they were soundly defeated, who’s to say how many survived?

No, it’s actually pretty explicit Adelbern didn’t trust KRYTANS, and never got over the last Guild Wars. They didn’t have to do much of ANYTHING to ‘turn Adelbern crazy’. He already was stubborn to that point as shown by his ‘banishing’ Rurik.

…because he wanted to flee anyway, Adelbern was giving him what he wanted.

So the Charr forces north of the wall were a very clear and present threat. But they weren’t a big enough threat in the long run to possibly doom Ascalon?

Oh, possibly very much so. Anything is possible. I’m just going off of what the same writer gives us after that.

How many wars have been ‘over’ yet fighting still continued?

Tons. How many of those declared over were not a foregone conclusion?

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s in ED. The “present day” is post-Charr conflict. The word “recovering” could mean many things, sure. I suppose the definition of it suffices though: return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength. “Normal” for Ascalon wasn’t just pre-Searing, but pre-Charr invasion of the north.

So “recovering”, but already “return”? That’s not how things work. If someone punched you in your face hard, but you managed to get up, that doesn’t mean “wohoo, fight is over and I won!”.

And if someone is recovering from a car accident, that does mean the accident is over. I’m sure that when Manny was “recovering” from his loss to Mayweather, he didn’t think it was just between rounds…

Kalavier.1097:

Dragons, even in GW1, were very limited. You had bone dragons and then the Saltspray and turtle dragons… and that was it.

Glint and Kuunavang don’t count here??

Even in GW1 the Gods weren’t really present for much, so it’s not like they were forced out. They simply went from appearing randomly to hardly appearing at all.

…and being responsible for 99% of all magic usage on the planet. Even the Charr used their magic.

Also, how would you keep the gods being major influential figures in a multi-race RPG? Because only two races have something like that. Norn and Humans. Charr, Sylvari, and Asura don’t have that.

As far as we know, only Kormir is a human god. Are the others human? I’ve never heard that. Since when can a multi-race RPG not have gods???

Think about it. What major influence did the gods personally do in all of the first three campaigns? Ascension perhaps in Proph. Nothing in Factions (That was the envoys), and Nightfall their avatars arrived to basically tell you “We aren’t getting involved, sorry. You can do this kitten on your own though!”

-see above-

Kalavier.1097:

Dragons, even in GW1, were very limited. You had bone dragons and then the Saltspray and turtle dragons… and that was it.

Glint and Kuunavang don’t count here??

Even in GW1 the Gods weren’t really present for much, so it’s not like they were forced out. They simply went from appearing randomly to hardly appearing at all.

…and being responsible for 99% of all magic usage on the planet. Even the Charr used their magic.

Also, how would you keep the gods being major influential figures in a multi-race RPG? Because only two races have something like that. Norn and Humans. Charr, Sylvari, and Asura don’t have that.

As far as we know, only Kormir is a human god. Are the others human? I’ve never heard that. Since when can a multi-race RPG not have gods???

Think about it. What major influence did the gods personally do in all of the first three campaigns? Ascension perhaps in Proph. Nothing in Factions (That was the envoys), and Nightfall their avatars arrived to basically tell you “We aren’t getting involved, sorry. You can do this kitten on your own though!”

-see above-

Kalavier.1097:

Because in GW1, you didn’t have the several groups all living together? Kaineng, the Forest, and the Jade Sea were all distinctly apart?

Hate to tell you this, but Luxon and Kurzik were loosely based off of Greek and German/Russian aesthetics, not Eastern.

Kainang itself, and Cantha proper, was a mix of multiple East-Asian cultures together. Again, why wasn’t this an issue in GW1?

Kalavier.1097:

Also, the way I recall it, the offensive into Kryta was repulsed and went back to Ascalon, it was not wiped out.

Where did it say that?

Obviously, Ascalon did not have the military strength to hold out against such a force for long or with real hope of victory, otherwise Rurik wouldn’t have brought up such concerns.

Rurik served the plotline, as did this guy. His incessant babbling foreshadowed the Mursaat, Khilbron, Rurik’ death, and even humanities own arrogance. The writer is giving us cookies here.

I’m saying, Adelbern did what he was planning to do to the first Ambassador, to the second. The second simply didn’t have Rurik standing between them. Are you arguing that Adelbern did not have intent of having the first killed? “Treason” usually holds a death penalty. And both had such evil intentions… offering Aid to Ascalon. Evennia simply asked if Ebon Vanguard could help out Kryta in return.

Perhaps Adelbern distrusted Mantle? One of the major plot devices of Proph is the PC slowly figuring out these guys were not the good guys. Evennia wouldn’t have even been needed to go to Ascalon to aid in the Charr fight had the story followed the orginal intended narrative. That was GW2 writers starting to set up Adelbern as crazy even back then.

So your argument is “Because the plot wasn’t situated in Ascalon or even FOCUSED on Ascalon, that is the only reason those two fought and there wasn’t a shred of implication that the Charr were massing forces north of the wall again.”?

No, the Charr forces massing north of the wall again was for the same reason. Why would Rurik want to pull the PC over the Shivs if there was no clear threat?

You can recover from an attack but still have the war going on.

Can you recover from a war and still have the war going on? If you look up 20th century conflicts in the world all you get is a list of wars…

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

All we know of Ermenred’s timeline is that he left Ascalon after the Flameseeker Prophecies were completed and the Charr “conflict” was over in Ascalon.

Source on that. And no, “recovering” does not mean “it’s over”.

It’s in ED. The “present day” is post-Charr conflict. The word “recovering” could mean many things, sure. I suppose the definition of it suffices though: return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength. “Normal” for Ascalon wasn’t just pre-Searing, but pre-Charr invasion of the north.

Kalavier.1097:

So a single battle/pair of battles magically just made the entire Charr offensive stop and Ascalon won and wasn’t threatened by the Charr, their home being a wasteland now, their armies and defensives severely weakened…

The main offensive ran through Ascalon to Orr and Kryta, remember? The Charr left behind were meant to mop up the Ascalon hold-outs. If the Charr had “an army of many thousands” waiting to finish off Ascalon, as Rurik stated, how many did Ascalon have left? Does anyone know, or are we all assuming it’s a couple of hundred or so?

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

Becoming a nihilistic murderer is a far cry from being more stubborn.

Again, how is it shocking that Adelbern, NOTED TO HATE KRYTANS EXTREMELY, noted to be very stubborn to the point where many Ascalon citizens would rather Rurik be on the Throne BECAUSE THEY THINK RURIK CAN BRING ASCALON TO ANOTHER GOLDEN AGE, noted to refuse help and fiercely cling to what little he has left of his ruined kingdom and refuse to accept defeat…

Would dip more into the crazy pot, possibly murder a Krytan Ambassador asking for (and offering) help, banish and remove any who spoke out against his tactics, and become enraged when he sees what little followers he has left fleeing an overwhelming force.

Hate to tell you this, but the reason for Ruriks fight with his dad was to get the PC over the Shivs in the first place. It gives the PC the narrative excuse to leave his home and resume the storyline. Otherwise, there is no legitimate reason why an Ascalon hero would be running away at that time.

You’re right, I guess whoever wrote that wasn’t being detailed enough.

Agree

Not invalid, but definitely a case of “History doesn’t lie, Historians on the other hand…”

That’s a heckuva lot of conjecture there…

We are talking about something wrote by a guy who is currently in Cantha, had left Ascalon, and chooses to live in Kryta (ingame). I don’t think he has current, updated information concerning the status of Ascalon as of that Moment, since Factions and Prophecies don’t take place that far apart. I don’t think he’s in Adelbern’s inner circle, and the Titan Quests don’t imply that Adelbern has suddenly changed EVERY SINGE ASPECT of his personality and suddenly embraces Kryta and is making treaties with them for aid. (Treaties that, as of Gw1 prophecies end, would be hard to do seeing as we just killed the White Mantle Leadership in the shiverpeaks and the ring of fire.)

All we know of Ermenred’s timeline is that he left Ascalon after the Flameseeker Prophecies were completed and the Charr “conflict” was over in Ascalon. I can’t speak on Adelbern’s diplomacy concerns at that time…

Dante.1763:

Obsidian.1328:

The big dev shuffle was after Nightfall I believe, but don’t quote me on that. :-/

Well, Heres the writers who wrote Nightfall: From http://gw1101.gtm.guildwars.com/products/nightfall/features/nightfallcredits.php
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the writers who wrote Prophecies: From the Wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_credits#Writers
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

Theres only a one person absence in between the two games.

And heres the credits for Eye of the North, again for the writers.

Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Caitlin Kittredge
Stacie Magelssen
Will McDermott
Bobby Stein

And heres the credit list for GW2: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Writers
Angel Leigh McCoy
Bobby Stein
David Wilson
John Ryan
Matt Forbeck
Peter Fries
Scott McGough

The biggest change in staff was between EoTn and when GW2 was published, at least for the writing team ^^

Not pro or con any way here, but Lebow isn’t anywhere on there. Those lists are wrong.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kalavier.1097:

The way I remember it was less at canthan district and more of they preferred a more unified look across the city.

At least, that is one explanation I had read.

A dev outright stated that the Canthan district was removed due to negative feedback from the Asian audience – they hated hows Anet had mixed in different cultures from across Asia together.

Which to me makes no sense, but hey, prideful people are prideful people and I am not such.

Why was this not a big deal then in GW1?

I also heard it was because the “Asian” district was inside a “white” city. Like it was offensive to be a mere neighborhood surrounded by Westerners or something. If that’s the case, that’s their own fault for excluding Cantha from the GW2 narrative.

Ehecatl.9172:

Obsidian.1328:

You’re missing my point. The Elder Dragons were in no way, shape, or form a necessary eventuality in Tyria. They were specifically invented for the GW2 narrative. So most of what you said up there is irrelevant. While the written lore for them is not bad, the reason for them even being here in the first place is wrong. It’s the same reason they have mad scientist Asura, drunk viking Norn, elvish Sylvari, steampunk Charr, and vanilla fantasy humans…because Dragonz are kewl!! It’s a simple popular fantasy flavor thrown into the Tyrian narrative to feed the masses.

It’s putting marketing ideals above narrative continuity. ANet wanted to appeal to as many players as possible and they knew that if they threw in all these ridiculous fantasy tropes it would work better. That’s what’s wrong with the initial GW2 writing.

I’m curious, but where do you get your facts? What source do you have that definitively proves that Anet only created the Elder Dragons to appeal to a crowd and not because that’s the sort of story they wanted to explore with their next installment of the franchise?

At any rate this is a futile discussion. You’re clearly set in your belief so there isn’t anything to discuss.

Because GW1 already had dragons??

“Dragons of all shapes, sizes, and origin have called Cantha home for thousands of years, since long before the tribes of old joined to form the empire that took them as its symbol.
— The Guild Wars Factions Manuscripts”

“Dragons are a large theme throughout Cantha and somewhat throughout Tyria and the Mists, resulting in many draconic statues and decorations.”

Given that they didn’t even have to get rid of the gods in the first place(that was yet another decision based on personal narrative preferences and marketing demographics), why make them huge dragons at all when Tyria already had a small but rich draconic theme(much of it loosely based off of Eastern myth)? Why not make them something else not already relentlessly overplayed as the top of the food chain in the fantasy genre? They were given a blank slate to invent something to replace the gods as the arbiters of power in Tyria and what do they come up with? Big dragons.

Give me a solid reason why that isn’t anything but a lazy play for a wider audience?

Lurinna.4306:

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

That segment was created along with the rest of the Prophecies epilogue much later, around the time of EOTN.

I didn’t know that, is that true?

Kalavier.1097:

Lurinna.4306:

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

That segment was created along with the rest of the Prophecies epilogue much later, around the time of EOTN.

And in Prophecies Ascalon wasn’t going to last long. I’m curious WHO in Kryta those supposed treaties would have been with (from that quote about Ascalon recovering).

White Mantle, who was leaderless because of our actions? Shining Blade, which while maybe growing in strength, still had their own teeth kicked in recently?

They never wrote another story for post-Proph Tyria until EotN, are you really trying to suggest that that quote is invalid because it didn’t address the particular political instability of Kryta that was months ago by the time of that quote??

You’re right, I guess whoever wrote that wasn’t being detailed enough.

Kalavier.1097:

“Maybe now that you are finished with this nonsense, you can come back to Ascalon and help deal with the filthy Charr infestation.”

Yeah… War is over and the humans won. Adelbern is remorseful and regretful.

Seriously dude?? That phrase is uttered immediately after the last core mission in Proph, before the Titan quests, and certainly before Factions.

Not really, end of that one Titan mission simply has us catching him as he’s tired. Nothing indicates that his entire personality has shifted from what he was shown to have before.

If all you get from that is “he’s tired” I don’t know what to tell you.

Again, the way his character acted in GW beyond, and the lore after that was FITTING OF HIM. It wasn’t a shocking rewrite that went against every single showing of him before, it was a natural progression. He simply became more and more stubborn.

…

Also, no. EOTN and GW beyond may help bridge and introduce some of the lore of GW2, but it is NOT guild wars 2. It is Guild wars 1. Was the entire GW1 staff removed and didn’t work on those items at all? I don’t recall ever hearing such.

Quote from the EotN main wiki page: “GW:EN, is the fourth purchasable installment in the original Guild Wars game. It is intended to tie the Guild Wars storyline with that of Guild Wars 2.”
The entire purpose of EotN was to intro the GW2 narrative dude. Had they not done so, we’d have had a 4th campaign, Utopia, to gab about here.

For staff answer, see my post above.

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

And his mindset at the end of Proph is one of regret and remorse, not insane warmongering.

EotN is an ANet-confirmed, introductory prequel to GW2. Anything during or after that, which the Foefire is, is definitely GW2. It’s common knowledge.

So right before start of making EotN whole Anet lore writing team was fired or what?

No, in between Factions and Nightfall was the big staff shuffle. It wasn’t just writers, a lot of personnel came and went during that time. The 3rd installment(Nightfall) was pretty much an eventuality by then and the writers, even all the new ones, still had to pan that out and earn their stripes by doing so.

The big dev shuffle was after Nightfall I believe, but don’t quote me on that. :-/

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

No, because of the nature of the whole document. It’s basically an introductory history lesson for Cantha from the point of view of a “post-Flameseeker Prophecies” Ascalon ambassador.

Not just “Ascalon ambassador”, but Ascalon ambassador approved by Adelbern, who had quite specific view on war events and pretty unlikely could approve someone who didn’t share his mindset. Ambassador is a voice of king.

Because it was written by GW2 writers…

By GW2 writers and not by GW1 writers? You have confirmation on this from anet? Because this is pretty interesting claim.

And his mindset at the end of Proph is one of regret and remorse, not insane warmongering.

EotN is an ANet-confirmed, introductory prequel to GW2. Anything during or after that, which the Foefire is, is definitely GW2. It’s common knowledge.

Klypto.1703:

I don’t want to ruffle anyways feathers but I kind of have an annoyance with the title vs the content of the game. If you remember the tree guy talk about the time during the original game on how there will guilds fighting each other but no longer do in theory. I am wondering if there is some kind of lore to bring the guild wars back to fit the lore into what the game in a sequel of it sharing the same name(excluding the 2 part of course.

Also on top of that I am not sure how much of this is true or rumors but the core of guild wars itself was in cantha/factions. I have heard that the devs really aren’t going to be focusing on cantha or elona and are just sticking to tyria. I just find it odd where there is no content/lore in the game of where the game really got its momentum in the original game of what I was expecting if that makes any sense

The original concept of Guild Wars 1 was having player guilds actually fight for territory in the PvE zones for influence, bonuses, etc. That concept was scrapped early in development for separation of PvP/PvE. However, much of the story of the Guild Wars had already been written. So ANet chose to keep the name, and use it as part of the lore history instead of current events. That is why the game is called what it is called.

Historically, the Guild Wars took place only on the Tyrian continent between Kryta, Orr, and Ascalon. You may be thinking of Factions, it had a pseudo GvG-in-PvE system. The battles themselves took place in separate instances, with the results determining which cities/town/areas in the actual PvE map the winner had “control” of. It was kind of a half-hearted realization of the original concept I mentioned above, but it wasn’t called “guild wars” per se. The two opposing factions(hence the name) were the Luxons and Kurziks, which were also tied into the core narrative. Guilds could also be part of Alliances that fought each other for certain perks in Alliance Battles(AB for short). It was a little convoluted, but it worked. :-P

Ehecatl.9172:

Of the First Age, no. But compared to the Third Age? It’s dramatically different. Children of Hurin and The Hobbit are so different in tone that were you to give both to someone I doubt they’d come to the conclusion that they are the same world outside of both including dwarves and elves.

The Hobbit was written for kids, LotR was more reminiscent of The Silmarillion with some of the tone from the Hobbit in it…since there were hobbits in it. -__-

Because GW2 is a sequel, not another chapter. The expansions of Guild Wars were all chapters that were connected by an overarching plot that came together in Nightfall. Then they used Eye of the North to set up the next installment in the franchise, which was the sequel to Guild Wars, GW2. Or perhaps more accurate, it’s a second series that takes place after the first is at an end. The entire point of the second series is to show the world and how it’s changed from the first, and to follow a new storyline in this newly developed world.

As for what stories they couldn’t do.. Technically nothing. If the writers wanted to they could’ve had A man named Reginald Bottombroke appear out of a time machine to warn Tyria of an impending doom from a thousand years from now that’d be invading Tyria with space age technology and giant riding worms with lasers on their heads. That’s the thing about being a writer. You can do anything. However, you have to ask if what you’re doing makes sense.

That is where the timeskip comes in. Without it the Elder Dragons rising from their sleep are just new enemies to be killed, no different from the Titans or the Margonites. But WITH the timeskip the dragons have a history interacting with the playable races. Zhaitan has been slowly spreading death for over one hundred years, and his name is known to everyone in Tyria. Jormag is known as the dragon that stole the Northern Shiverpeaks from the Norn, and Kraalkatorrik caused the Brand and murdered Snaff, bringing ire from the charr and asura. Primordius has had the last 250 years to wipe out the Asuran civilization, forcing them to start again on the surface.

The narrative of GW2 simply wouldn’t work if it took place directly after Guild Wars. The races need to be intimately familiar with the dragons for the dragons to feel like a worthy enough threat to put aside old hatreds, and you couldn’t fit the dragons into Guild Wars lore without some MAJOR retconning or just having them arrive suddenly with no proper foreshadowing or history behind them.

The way it was done was very effective. Bringing in Primordius at the very end of Guild Wars to show what the future held, and then releasing GW2 and the information of the history between the two games so players can get an idea of what they’re dealing with. Guild Wars ended with a “The End..?” moment, and GW2 answered the question mark at the end before bringing us to where we are now.

Now you might not agree with how the world evolved over those 250 years, I don’t agree with some of the changes either, but to say Anet’s ONLY reason for the time skip was marketing based seems a bit presumptuous. The time skip clearly has value to the story they are trying to tell, and gave the writers more freedom with the lore between the two games to get everything in position for the beginning of GW2.

You’re missing my point. The Elder Dragons were in no way, shape, or form a necessary eventuality in Tyria. They were specifically invented for the GW2 narrative. So most of what you said up there is irrelevant. While the written lore for them is not bad, the reason for them even being here in the first place is wrong. It’s the same reason they have mad scientist Asura, drunk viking Norn, elvish Sylvari, steampunk Charr, and vanilla fantasy humans…because Dragonz are kewl!! It’s a simple popular fantasy flavor thrown into the Tyrian narrative to feed the masses.

It’s putting marketing ideals above narrative continuity. ANet wanted to appeal to as many players as possible and they knew that if they threw in all these ridiculous fantasy tropes it would work better. That’s what’s wrong with the initial GW2 writing.

It’s 250 years in the future.

You don’t need an ancient Seer to infuse your armor with the spectral essence of an Eidolon, nor an ancient ritual of Ascension to inherit the gift of truesight as per the even more ancient prophecy.

All you need is cash dude! There are merchants around who you purchase that stuff from now! Get out of the past yo!

I’m just waiting on the Ascended/Infusion ATM machines to appear, there’s got to be an Asuran working on that somewhere…

Rednik.3809:

Beg for help, while Adelbern still being a king? Old madman will rather kill his ambassadors if they even trying to ask him about that.

No, because of the nature of the whole document. It’s basically an introductory history lesson for Cantha from the point of view of a “post-Flameseeker Prophecies” Ascalon ambassador. It would seem exceedingly odd for him to go through all that trouble of gathering all of that historical information to take back to an almost-dead kingdom, dontcha think?

Because it was quite a few years after the end of original campaign?

Because it was written by GW2 writers…

Kalavier.1097:

It didn’t destroy everything, but I don’t see how you think a nation could be self sufficient off of that land post searing. Hell, I don’t see how you played Prophecies and thought Ascalon post searing wasn’t a wasteland.

We didn’t get to see all of Ascalon Pre-Searing, and even less of it post-Searing. Just like you don’t get to see all of Kryta, or Cantha, or Elona. Hell you don’t even get to see much of the Charr lands, yet you don’t have a problem assuming it’s all there. The sum of the explorable parts in the game is less than the whole.

Makes no sense for the King who hates krytans to the point he’d rather see his nation die then accept help… would murder a Krytan? Note she said it herself, he’d rather that they ALL DIE then to grant her an audience.

She meant everyone, not just Krytans. Again, GW2 writing there.

Because the Titans we kill are ones the Lich Lord sent forth. As I recall, the Titans the Charr found originally were from another place. Specifically, a place that is the Flame Legion capital and they were found 200 years before the searing.

The Dragon’s Gullet is supposed to be near Mount Hrangmer in GW1…which is where those Titans came from. Right next to the Flame Legion Corridor. Any of this falling into place now?

The TITAN threat was over. Titan threat does not equal the Charr threat.

Agree.

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Funny, isn’t that from a document written by a Canthan? Because we all know Adelbern would never make a treaty with Kryta so it’s hard to see Ascalon forming new treaties with Kryta when Kryta itself was in the middle of a government shift (Namely, how the White Mantle were losing their gripe at the time).

edit: Not from a Canthan, but the guy writing it at the exact moment is in Cantha.

The guy that wrote that left Ascalon after the Proph campaign to travel to Cantha to resume trade routes, diplomacy, etc. It’s meant as bridging narrative for Proph PC’s to intro into the Factions campaign. The whole point of Adelbern’s speech at the end of The Last Day Dawns is to give him a sense of regret and remorse at being so stubborn and pig-headed to his son. The writer is trying to show you he realizes the error of his ways.

Sounds like “we were struck badly and now trying to recover from blow, sending ambassadors to Kryta and Elona, asking them for help”. And as we know, they never recovered enough, final assault of Ascalon City ended them. And help never arrived.

It doesn’t sound like that at all, you’re reaching. It would have been worded differently and had a completely different tone had they been begging for help. Also, and as we know, the final assault on AC was GW2 material.

Ascalon, as of end of Prophecies, was a doomed nation. The only sources of Trade would be from Kryta or Deldrimor. One was on the permanent kittenlist of the King, the other in a civil war. Elonian or Cantha would possibly be trading partners, but the prices would be so expensive because of travel distance and danger Ascalon couldn’t survive.

…or anywhere else off the explorable map. You’re falling victim to game limitations again.

See, if Adelbern hadn’t been king (And Rurik or somebody else was), then YES, Ascalon could’ve survived longer. But with Adelbern on the throne it was doomed. An isolationist/isolated nation with much of the natural resources destroyed isn’t going to last long.

Another assumption.

Shocking, Ascalon didn’t last long after the Searing. About 20 years or so from what I see. The charr caused the Searing, but GW2 ANet killed Ascalon.

I fixed that for you.

Kalavier.1097:

…GW2, which was supposed to be an entirely new game…

Mission accomplished ANet.

Kalavier: …but tell me, EXPLICITLY, where it states that Ascalon ‘won the war’ at the end of Prophecies.

1582 CC (1072 AE)
“And so we reach the present day. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

Perhaps not explicit enough for you, but it is what it is. I don’t know how you can read that and think the war is still on.

Kalavier

1) No, I’m saying the destruction wasn’t all-encompassing. Even one of Zain’s quests has you going down to Regent Valley to help him resupply since he’s barred from AC. How could he resupply from the southeast if all of Ascalon is a “wasteland” as you put it? I’m fairly certain Ascalons wouldn’t be giving a Krytan supplies if there wasn’t a steady supply of them coming in.

2) A spy can be tried for treason, it’s a small leap of logic to say Adelbern would think Zain a spy. He hates Krytans. And no, I really don’t think he had Evennia killed. That makes no sense.

3) You really don’t think that the Titan’s we kill during a quest titled “The Titan Source” aren’t the same one’s the Charr were worshiping? Even Glint said that the Titan threat is over when you finish it, how can that be if the “Charr” Titans are still around?

Kalavier.1097:

But considering how throughout Prophecies after you leave Ascalon, it has no meaning to the plot (until a titan lord appears there and you go to stop it), I fail to see how we stopped the Charr army that was threatening it even after the battle of Rin. We do nothing to clear out the rest of the Charr or any other leadership elements.

The Titan’s were there for years before that “in the lore,” there are wicker effigies of them north of the wall even in pre-searing. There are also two Glint quests where you help Ascalon both kill the remaining Charr leadership, and kill their Titan lords.

And if you think that Ascalon was reduced to only the number of people you could physically see in the game, you’re doing it wrong. By that rationale, there were less than a hundred Charr left in all of Ascalon. Don’t confuse “in-game lore” with the limits of the game mechanics.

Rednik.3809:

And Khilbron was an evil charr or rightful Vizier of Orr?

Doesn’t matter, you said all. One human brought down Orr, no more.

After thousands years of sleep this is kinda expected.

No it’s not. Scarlet woke a dragon immediately with one spike of magic, a whole continent falling on a dragon wouldn’t do it??

Kryta was struck by a second Searing? I’m missed something?

Searing-level =/= Searing itself. So the Searing and invasion couldn’t quite defeat Ascalon, but the regular Charr army defeated the full might of Orr(which was at the very least the equal of Kryta or Ascalon) in twelve hours flat. You think it’s logical to assume Kryta wouldn’t have at least suffered the same fate as Ascalon? Remember, one of the only reasons Ascalon survived was that the bulk of the Charr army moved on to Orr or Kryta because they thought Ascalon was defeated.

Kalavier.1097:

Ascalon was a wasteland. The fact it healed as much as it has in GW2 is amazing. Tell me, where would they grow crops? Get water? The land, as it was then, wasn’t able to support a population effectively.

That was kinda one of the KEY PARTS OF RURIK’S FOLLOWERS LEAVING. Rurik felt that Ascalon was ruined, and there was no hope there for survival, long term or short. And for the most part, his feelings were good before that. Instead of rivers and lakes, they had pools of Tar. Instead of fertile grasslands and forests, they had burnt and ruined land.

If Adelbern hadn’t wiped out the rest of Ascalon bar Ebonhawke, and the Charr hadn’t continue their assaults, starvation would’ve likely claimed much of the population. I can’t see how anybody could look at post searing Ascalon and go “Yeah, I’d see a nation surviving there.”

Every “nation” had territory not included on the explorable map. The Ascalon basin is a big place, there’s a lot of it we don’t get to see. Not to mention trade and diplomacy resumed after the Charr confict…as per Empire Divided says. Where did the Charr grow crops and get water? Food/water logistics and support was not exactly high on the list for ANet’s simulation of Tyria, it would be silly to assume that. I mean, where did Cantha get all that food to feed KC? I remember only seeing a few farm fields in the whole of Cantha…I guess that means they are starved. Really dude?

“The clouds of war gather on the horizon. The hour of the storm is upon us, yet Adelbern still refuses to give me audience. Old fool would rather kill us all than accept help.”

Her dialogue in Old Ascalon.

She went missing from Old Ascalon after spending a while there trying to get help (and give help). Given how Adelbern acted toward the LAST Ambassador to come around, and his feelings toward Krytans in general… You REALLY think Adelbern wasn’t behind her suddenly disappearing in some manner?

It literally fits his mental state and personality to be responsible for murdering (or imprisoning and leaving to rot in a cell) Evennia.

It fits his mental state for GW2 yes. That dialogue was written post EotN, which is a prelude for GW2, ANet has even said so. Do you really think they weren’t already trying to set up the Foefire scenario by further modifying Adelbern’s state of mind?

Daniel Handler.4816:

The causes are only slightly relevant to what comes after.

Said no historian ever. The why is always important.

Rednik

Entirely Khilbron’s deed. It’s extremely obvious ANet2 used the Cataclysm scenario as a blueprint for the Foefire. The parallels are astounding. I wouldn’t be surprised if they somehow make Abaddon responsible too…even though he’s supposed to be gone.

It was 150 years between the Cataclysm and the rising of Orr, that dragon sleeps heavier than the town drunk! I’m sure there’s some technobabble reason the Asura will discover relating to some Draconian Nocturne experiment.

Oh I see, so the Krytans could have withstood a “Searing-level” attack, but the Ascalons couldn’t? Like you said, it was just a matter of time in Ascalon right? Why would Kryta be different?

Kalavier.1097:

No, I said he tried. I never said he succeeded.

I’m calling his attempt to match out and try his as a traitor (that Rurik stopped) as an ATTEMPT.

Hell, He’s heavily implied to have imprisoned or Killed the Shining Blade/Kryta ambassador sent to get Ebon Vanguard/Ascalon help against the White Mantle (with promise of Krytan aid to Ascalon as soon as that was over).

Adelbern killed Evennia?? News to me.

Kalavier.1097:

Obsidian.1328:

Explain to me why ANet, with all those leagues and leagues of available space around the old human kingdoms to work with, decided instead to carve up human space and dole it out to the new races? If the answer is racial parity, then that’s a marketing decision.

Explain to me why they had to kill off the gods, advance the clock 250 years, and turn magic into something that is dissected in a laboratory? If the answer is simply wanting to make Tyria your own by inserting your own narrative concepts into the story with little regard to original thematic intent, then that is a pride decision.

Neither decision is a good one.

A: Ascalon was not going to survive in the first place. It’s population wkittentered, the land unable to effectively support a population, and the charr attacking.
B: They didn’t kill off the gods. The gods had not that much influence over kitten in gw1, all chapters. The most often was the res shrines/avatar bonuses you could buy, and the underworld/fissure of woe.
C: Because advancing the clock 250 years actually means they can reference the events of GW1 WITHOUT having to explicitly label a ‘canon’ hero. Was it a Ascalonian who did all three campaigns in canon? Or one Ascalon, one Canthan, one Istani?

If GW2 would’ve happened say… 10 years or even 20 years later, our Gw1 heroes would be alive and well. How would you tell the story without mentioning them or being forced to create a ‘canon’ hero (which would kitten off the MMO players).

Well they did that for Factions and Nightfall, it’s fairly academic. Or are you one of those people that thinks that everyone running around with that “Hero of Tyria” title is poor lore design because there should be only one? -__-

The Vizier wouldn’t have read the scroll that caused the Cataclysm…had the Charr not been on their doorstep about to wipe them all out. Saying the Charr didn’t cause Orr’s demise is like saying the Allies didn’t cause Germany losing the war because Hitler killed himself in Berlin before the Allies could get there. If Bob points a gun at me and I shoot myself first, is Bob innocent?

Ascalon survived the Searing, and didn’t “lose” until GW2 was in development. So you can’t really argue that Ascalon lost in GW1 when they didn’t until GW2 development. In other words, had GW2 never been made, human Ascalon would still be there.

Rednik LA was sunk by Zhaitan’s rising, not by Orr’s sinking.

Kryta would have lost to the Charr with or without its king. The whole point of the Mursaat being there was that they saved Kryta, at the cost of complete servitude and sacrificing the Krytan “Chosen” populace on the Bloodstones. If you can argue that they “could” have still won if the king had stayed, then I can argue that Orr “could” have won had Khilbron not blown them up. The narrative certainly doesn’t support either of those notions, but what the hey.

Kalavier Ah, so you’re assuming that after Rurik left with the PC, he went ahead and tried and executed Zain anyway? Can you find anything to that effect? It’s also interesting that Zain offers Mantle help, but only if you “place your faith in the Unseen Ones.” I guess Rurik wasn’t all that devoted to the Five. Adelbern dodged a real bullet there huh. He also was right to stay and fight, since we all know Ascalon was written to have won the war before GW2 was in development. Perhaps this Adelbern fellow didn’t get a very fair shake with the new writers…

Rednik.3809:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten.

And since when Ascalon = humanity? Also, serves them right.

Humanity on the Tyrian continent. I’m not including Cantha and Elona here. The Searing opened the door for Orr’s annihilation and Kyrta barely escaped by letting the Mursaat enslave them. The Charr certainly tried, read your history.

Kalavier.1097:

To use ingame npc dialogue. “The searing is ANCIENT history. Move on.” How can there be hope of peace if there is nothing but clinging to ancient hatreds? Hell, look at what happened to Ascalon. IF Adelbern hadn’t clung to his hate so fiercely, THINGS probably would’ve been different!

Wow…the irony is strong in this one. It’s interesting that the Searing, which was 250 years ago and let the Charr nearly wipe humanity off the Tyrian continent, should be forgived and forgotten. Yet the Charr were perfectly in the right to wage war on humanity a thousand years after being driven out of a small section of their territory. Peaches.

Also, Adelbern never tried to kill the Krytan ambassador. Even though he was a White Mantle…and probably deserved it. Cite a source anywhere.

Ehecatl.9172:

Have you read Children of Hurin? It’s a novel that takes place in the First Age and I must say, it’s tone is much, much darker than what was in Lord of the Rings, and most certainly darker than the Hobbit. We’re talking eternal torture, incest, and suicide levels of dark. Still a great read though, and I wouldn’t say it betrayed the franchise by being different given it was set in a different, much darker time.

Yes, Túrin Turambar is one of my favorite Tolkien characters. His fate is the ying to Tuor’s yang. But Túrin isn’t the only tragic hero Tolkien delivers by any means. And his tone, while certainly darker, never left the confines of the original setting, style, and language of the First Age.

So you’re arguing that you should never advance the age a story takes place in because it’d bring fundamental changes to the world? That’s an odd stance to take. I love seeing how much the world of Tyria has changed over the past 250 years. That was probably the smartest thing they did when designing the game, and the very first thing I focused on when moving from Guild Wars to GW2. I went to all my favorite zones to see how much it had changed. The evolution of a world is a good thing. It lets you tell new stories you couldn’t do with the old world.

No, I’m saying you should never do so based on marketing or pride.

It’s interesting that you think “It lets you tell new stories you couldn’t do with the old world.” Do you mean the Dragons here? Or technology? Because I’m not sure why one would need to have it be set in the future in order to tell new stories. Please specify what “new stories” you are referring to, because the Tyria of GW1 was still largely undiscovered. There were whole swaths of land like west Maguuma, Janthir, and the Blazeridge Steppes and beyond that were referenced to and could have easily been expanded upon with new stories and races.

Explain to me why ANet, with all those leagues and leagues of available space around the old human kingdoms to work with, decided instead to carve up human space and dole it out to the new races? If the answer is racial parity, then that’s a marketing decision.

Explain to me why they had to kill off the gods, advance the clock 250 years, and turn magic into something that is dissected in a laboratory? If the answer is simply wanting to make Tyria your own by inserting your own narrative concepts into the story with little regard to original thematic intent, then that is a pride decision.

Neither decision is a good one.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

TBH, Obsidian, what you said sounds just like any comic book or game series or TV show series or even movie series where the writers/directors/etc. change around. There are hints, notes, etc. left in the earlier/original works that are worked on and expanded in later extensions by different people.

J.R.R. started the Silmarillion and was finished by his son just as the writers of Prophecies started the threads that were finished (or continued) by writers of Eye of the North and GW2.

It would be more accurate to say the writers of Proph, and arguably Factions, started and finished 2 complete stories(threads included). And those loose threads were expanded upon by the writers of EotN, GW2, and arguably Nightfall as well. There’s a lot of transitional flux going on between Factions and Nightfall which is subtly reflected in the writing and design.

Avariz.8241:

Obsidian.1328:

Ehecatl.9172:

~snip~

That’s not the same thing. The Silmarillion was written after the Hobbit to provide a background story. It explains the world of The Hobbit and LotR.

Furthermore, it’s hardly in the same novel form; it’s more like a series of short stories appended with maps, chronological data, a glossary, and family trees all included. It’s kind of like a mythic history book.

Also, Having GW2 set 250 years in the future wasn’t something that was in any way an inevitability. ANet purposely set it 250 years in the future(trivia: a nod to inventory stack limits) so that they could do all those futuristic steam-punk, magi-tech, laser-ship themes. In other words, since the GW1 ‘verse couldn’t realistically support all that stuff they simply advanced the clock so that it could. It’s really that simple.

And yes, old Bullroarer(I think) knocked off a goblin kings head with a wooden club to invent golf.

The Silmarillion was composed by the son of J.R.R. Tolkien using diverse notes taken from his late father. LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit were composed by J.R.R. Tolkien himself. Such a situation paralleled the issue involved quite well.

I disagree. I will say that me saying the Silmarillion was written after the Hobbit is not entirely true; as it was begun before the Hobbit, never truly finished in J.R.R.‘s lifetime, and edited and published by Christopher well after LotR and J.R.R.’s own death.

“Tolkien first began working on the stories that would become The Silmarillion in 1914, intending them to become an English mythology that would explain the origins of English history and culture.”

~now that’s from wiki, but the source material is J.R.R.‘s own published letters. Do you still think it’s a valid comparison given all of that?

Ehecatl.9172:

~snip~

That’s not the same thing. The Silmarillion was written after the Hobbit to provide a background story. It explains the world of The Hobbit and LotR.

Furthermore, it’s hardly in the same novel form; it’s more like a series of short stories appended with maps, chronological data, a glossary, and family trees all included. It’s kind of like a mythic history book.

Also, Having GW2 set 250 years in the future wasn’t something that was in any way an inevitability. ANet purposely set it 250 years in the future(trivia: a nod to inventory stack limits) so that they could do all those futuristic steam-punk, magi-tech, laser-ship themes. In other words, since the GW1 ‘verse couldn’t realistically support all that stuff they simply advanced the clock so that it could. It’s really that simple.

And yes, old Bullroarer(I think) knocked off a goblin kings head with a wooden club to invent golf.

Daniel Handler.4816:

You are trying to argue that Gw2 is not canon because it strayed from the core narrative.

I’m saying GW2 is a poor reflection of its roots because it strayed from the original narrative. Good or bad writing isn’t the real issue here, it’s authenticity and style.

I dug up this post I made two years ago of how Middle-Earth would pan out had it been done like GW2 from GW1, imagine the Uruks as Charr:

Urgoth(Uruk-hai): “Hey there human, you want a ride?”
Aragorn VI(human): “Hail Urgoth, we have travelled many leagues to reach Isengard. Rumors abound there are dragons brooding again up North in the Withered Heath. Do you know of it?”
Urgoth: (rolls eyes)“Umm yeah…we’ve been fighting them for awhile now, human. Anyway, do you want a ride or not?”
Aragorn VI: “Ride? We have our own horses as you can plainly see, orc,” smirking at his entourage.
Urgoth, sighs, and turns to his engineer, Mitzla, “Do you want to explain it or me?”
Mitzla: snorts, “Hey it was your idea to ask them to come, I could care less.”
Urgoth, turning back to the young King of Gondor, “Anywho…we thought it might be faster to use our zeppelins up on the skydock, but it’s up to you really.”
Aragorn VI: “Zeppelins? Skydock?”
Urgoth, sarcastically slow, he points straight up with the lead stick in his hand he was using to jot down notes.
Aragorn VI and his men look up and freeze in awe. A quarter mile above them, three large, steel platforms span out from Orthanc tower. Uruk-hai and orcs can be seen crawling all over each platform, rigging lines and carrying supplies. Huge metal and canvas balloons hover near two of the platforms, dwarfing the tower in size and majesty. The balloons seem to be loading troops, and more balloons can be seen in the distance, floating northwards over the Misty Mountains. “In Elendil’s name! What is this witchcraft and sorcery?!?”
Mitzla snarles and thumbs his mace.
Urgoth: “Easy Mitz…we have to be nice, we’re on the same side now remember?”
Mitzla grunts and walks off, cursing under his breath.
Urgoth: “You shouldn’t insult Mitzla that way, he’s one of our best engineers. And can probably gut you in 2 seconds,” he adds with a straight face. “Well, the last zeppelin leaves at dusk. Let me know if you want a ride. Either way I don’t care.”
Aragorn VI, watching Urgoth walk away, he turns to his captain, “These Uruks are vile creatures, men should not be made to fly as the crow or eagle.”
Gondor Captain, looking up at the zeppelins, “Perhaps sire, but do they serve coffee in those things?”

That seems pretty similar to a GW2 style reboot to LotR, it even has a cute little funny at the end. Any writer could easily connect all the lore dots(and invent new ones) to make it happen. The question is should he or she. If you think all that mess above is perfectly fine, I’m afraid we don’t have much more to discuss. If you don’t, then you at least have an idea of where I’m coming from.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Obsidian.1328:

Daniel Handler.4816:

No one is saying that Bilbo is an actual person.

You did.

Prove it.

DH: “Hobbits wrote the Red Book of Westmarch. Tolkien used the writings as a primary and only source. Any narrative written “objectively” based on Bilbo’s narrative would be as if Bilbo himself wrote it.”

Last I checked, fictional characters can’t write real words… .

If you must, I suppose you could clarify your statements with something like, “Tolkien wrote that Bilbo wrote” or something similar. “Would be as if” is not the same as “did”.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Obsidian.1328:

Daniel Handler.4816:

The story has to keep moving.

And right there is the nail on the head.

When anyone gets to the point where you drift too far from the core narrative, you’ve already gone too far. I really don’t care that Marvel gets to say what is and isn’t true in the X-Men world, everyone with half a brain can see what is the original intent and portrayal. And the farther you stray from that, the farther you get from the truth.

There’s a reason why everyone dislikes Schumacher’s Batman movies, and it’s not because they just don’t like his style. It’s because his version doesn’t do Batman justice. Calling that canon, or whatever, is not just silly, but wrong.

This is from the wikipedia entry on Dawn Summers, the character that Joss Whedon retconnned into the Buffy Universe. It shows what a lot of the people on this forums are going for. Not a statement on lore, but a statement on writing.

Responding to fan complaints of Dawn being whiny throughout Season Six, Joss Whedon says, “I scratched my head. I was like, ‘Excuse me, she’s been abandoned by about six parental figures. The girl has huge issues.’” However, he acknowledges that he and the writers hit “the same note for a while… We needed to make some changes.”⁶ Whedon has expressed regret over not being able to go further with Dawn’s character in season seven, but, as he says, "You get into a situation that you do like to stand alone [but] ‘Dawn Goes on a Date’ is not something that people would really sit for

We aren’t talking about adaptations on batman. We are talking about the core universe for Gw1. The one that is only canon if it is written by Anet staff. This is not fanfiction. This is not an adaptation. And Jess Lebow was not the novelist for Gw1, he was essentially a comic book writer. He wrote Gw1 edition 1. And whether or not you hate the editions that came afterwards is irrelevant to whether or not they are canon. He was a world designer, not the sole writer. Anything that happened after he gave his depiction was not up to him.

You have utterly no concept of what Jess Lebow intended other than the initial conditions of the world he designed. To assume he would require the world to stay at initial conditions, or that his work has strayed from the core narrative is just conceited.

What is the core narrative for Gw1? Humanity is strong? Who elected you to be the sole interpreter of what is “core” gw1. Does anyone else get to decide as you say what is and isn’t canon based on your literary interpretation of the “core” narrative.

We will never know what Dawn Summers could have turned into if people weren’t so busy trying to get a job on television as one of the shows writers.

If you want to send Anet angry fanmail by all means do so. But the forum is about discussion, not a tirade.

- tells me we aren’t talking about Batman
- proceeds into Buffy analogy…

“You have utterly no concept of what Jess Lebow intended other than the initial conditions of the world he designed.”

Oh I certainly have a concept of it. Anyone with half a brain can have a concept of thematic elements in writing after reading a story. Do I or anyone else have a complete understanding of it? Of course not. That’s why glean what you can from the material at hand. But to say it’s irrelevant to do so is irrelevant itself. It’s generally considered normal to talk about the writing, good or bad, in the lore forum…I’m not sure why you think being critical is out of line.

As for Jess, I have no idea why being a comic book writer as opposed to a novelist carries any import to the discussion at hand. Is one supposed to be legit and the other not? You’re right that anything that happened after he left was not up to him…isn’t that one of the reasons we all are here?

“Does anyone else get to decide as you say what is and isn’t canon based on your literary interpretation of the “core” narrative?"

Absolutely…everyone does. You see, a story’s existence isn’t dependent on who owns the rights to it. That’s a legal concept that has nothing to do with a story’s integrity. A story has a life of its own, it exists whether or not anyone owns it. “Deciding” what is and isn’t an honest reflection of the original work is a simple matter of honest comparison.

As a side note, I find it infinitely hilarious that some companies have no problem “owning up” a story and doing with it whatever they wish when that whole idea is predicated on the existence of the original story in the first place.

Daniel Handler.4816:

No one is saying that Bilbo is an actual person.

You did.

Ehecatl.9172:

Obsidian.1328:

All that stuff up there just means that whosoever controls the narrative rights, regardless of anything else, determines what is and isn’t lore. By that rationale, anyone, and I mean anyone, who is given the keys to the Star Wars ‘verse could write a book about Leia and Chewie’s secret affair, and love child-Wookie, behind Hans back, who becomes a Sith Lord called Harry, that has a fetish for Nerf burgers and hair perms. And has pink fur.

And no one could raise a finger in protest.

That’s got to be the silliest excuse for literary authority I’ve ever heard.

That is exactly how it works, actually. George Lucas recently sold the rights of Star Wars to Disney. Know what the first thing they did was? Change the canon. They threw out all the extra source material that wasn’t the six movies and declared it a separate canon from their own so they had more room for creative freedom.

Now Disney is coming out with a comic series, a new cartoon series, and a new movie to begin their own canon for the Star Wars Universe. The true canon is the Disney canon. The old EU material is considered a separate thing not relevant to the official Star Wars Universe.

…and that is why it is wrong.

Really buying in to what you are saying is akin to intellectual theft and censorship. It doesn’t matter who owns what rights or who calls the shots now, it’s simple honesty.

Either you personally don’t care about right and wrong, or the word “canon” is just another way to say “legal ownership” and shouldn’t be used in regards to any form of authenticity.

Yeah I didn’t know what to term it besides “short name.” It’s why I didn’t say acronym. Thanks for the trivia though, interesting stuff!

Daniel Handler.4816:

The story has to keep moving.

And right there is the nail on the head.

When anyone gets to the point where you drift too far from the core narrative, you’ve already gone too far. I really don’t care that Marvel gets to say what is and isn’t true in the X-Men world, everyone with half a brain can see what is the original intent and portrayal. And the farther you stray from that, the farther you get from the truth.

There’s a reason why everyone dislikes Schumacher’s Batman movies, and it’s not because they just don’t like his style. It’s because his version doesn’t do Batman justice. Calling that canon, or whatever, is not just silly, but wrong.