Guild Wars 2

But the Charr of GW1 were portrayed as inherently evil…that’s my whole point. It was clarified based on their actions and dialogue in-game. Not presenting a 1st-person point-of-view of a particular enemy does not mean they are still fair game for future good guys. If that’s the case, nearly every evil thing you run across out there has that option: the Stone Summit, the Margonites, the Titans, the Mursaat, heck maybe even Abaddon lol. You can’t create a believable black/white narrative(which is what GW1 was) with that kind of rampant relativity.

The inverse is true as well, GW1 Charr wouldn’t make much sense in this game…they are too simplistic and one-dimensional. They really are two different narratives, whether you’re talking about content, style, or soul.

I’d say not different sides of the same coin, but same sides of different coins. :P

^

I agree with a lot of that. However, I wouldn’t say they were portrayed as “situationally” evil, just regular evil. Until Nightfall that is, when you meet that one Charr in the Domain of Anguish(can’t remember his name). That’s really our first glimpse of moral ambiguity when it comes to them. And with EotN, that glimpse is obviously expanded into a full-on movement. And you already know my thoughts on staff changes during this time and how that affected the story, Dust.

So, given Prophecies black&white take on them, there’s really no issue with humans pushing the Charr out of Ascalon. It would have been nearly the same thing if it was ogres, grawl, scales, or whatever. The fact that the Charr cultural makeup was changed at a later date doesn’t invalidate the way they were written to begin with, especially with a different staff. Trying to accuse the Ascalonians of pushing out the poor Charr 1k years before is silly because the humans and gods(and writers) had no reason to think killing members of an evil race is a bad thing. That would be like someone writing a book now about how most orcs are really not evil, just pushed into it, then trying to accuse the Numenorians of genocide against orcs in Middle-Earth. That would make zero sense.

Look, a similar thing happened to the Mursaat unfortunately. Pre-WiK they were a much more sinister lot, something to be taken quite seriously if you follow along the storyline plot. During WiK, they are kind of portrayed like common ruffians and criminals, like some bandit that is trying to mug you for liquor money. It greatly diminished their mystique and “fear factor” to point where you can hardly take them seriously. Especially with those silly Peacekeepers they traveled with. It was a bad addition.

I will say this though, I’m not saying turning antagonists into protagonists should never be tried, I’m saying you have to be very careful in how you do that. ANet probably should have at least let the players experience that transition firsthand. The tiny bits we get in EotN doesn’t nearly cut it. It would have both gradually warmed “Charr-haters” hearts to be more accepting, as well made more sense within the overall multi-racial narrative. It’s like ANet expected “human” players to immediately be accepting of the new situation in Ascalon, even though a lot of them came fresh off the old game. Yes, I know, it’s technically 250 years “in-game,” but you know what, it’s only a few weeks or months “out-of-game.”

Bleh, even I’m getting tired of this topic. :/

Look I understand what you’re saying there, I’m a history major myself. But this isn’t history, it’s fantasy fiction. I don’t like to engage in black&whites either, but we’re not talking about two sides to a story, it’s really just one side: the writers.

The “point-of-view” of the victors isn’t the Ascalonians, it’s the authors of Prophecies. You could argue perhaps that the authors purposely wrote the Charr to be one-dimensional villains back then specifically so that they could be expanded upon at some future time, but I doubt that was the case. You could also argue every creature in Guild Wars has this potential for both good and evil and it’s merely a matter of choice or point-of-view. This is how GW2 does it, and makes a very sharp contrast to GW1 writing.

In GW1, who’s bad and who’s good is easy to figure out. It’s very cut and dry, and there’s little room for moral ambiguity. It’s not a question of character point-of-view though, it’s simply the writing style used to in the storyline. Tolkien used the same techniques in his books: humans/elves=good, orcs/goblins=bad. There are exceptions, of course, but that is how the literature played out in a general sense.

In GW2, you have almost the opposite thing happening. “Evil” is more a state of mind, and not associated with any one group or race. The Inquest are just too ambitious, the Svanir are just misguided, even the Dragons could be said to be just “doing their job” and keeping magic in check by consuming it when there gets to be to much of it. Good and bad are portrayed in a very different light now that’s largely dependent on individual actions.

Both of the writing styles are fine in their own right, the problem is they are both referring to the same game-world. There’s a clash of styles that don’t jive with each other. Here’s an example of what I mean, it’s from over a year ago in another forum but it relates here. Setting is Middle Earth, say…a hundred years post-Sauron:

Urgoth(Uruk-hai): “Hey there human, you want a ride?”
Aragorn VI(human): “Hail Urgoth, we have travelled many leagues to reach Isengard. Rumors abound there are dragons brooding again up North in the Withered Heath. Do you know of it?”
Urgoth: (rolls eyes)“Umm yeah…we’ve been fighting them for awhile now, human. Anyway, do you want a ride or not?”
Aragorn VI: “Ride? We have our own horses as you can plainly see, orc,” smirking at his entourage, they laugh snidely.
Urgoth sighs, and turns to his engineer, Mitzla, “Do you want to explain it or me?”
Mitzla: snorts, “Hey it was your idea to ask them to come, I could care less.”
Urgoth, turning back to the young King of Gondor, “Anywho…we thought it might be faster to use our zeppelins up on the skydock, but it’s up to you really.”
Aragorn VI: “Zeppelins? Skydock?”
Urgoth, sarcastically slow, points straight up with the lead stick in his hand he was using to jot down notes.
Aragorn VI and his men look up and freeze in awe. A quarter mile above them, three large, steel platforms span out from Orthanc tower. Uruk-hai and orcs can be seen crawling all over each platform, rigging lines and carrying supplies. Huge metal and canvas balloons hover near two of the platforms, dwarfing the tower in size and majesty. The balloons seem to be loading troops, and more balloons can be seen in the distance, floating northwards over the Misty Mountains. “In Elendil’s name! What is this witchcraft and sorcery?!?”
Mitzla snarles and thumbs his mace.
Urgoth: “Easy Mitz…we have to be nice, we’re on the same side now remember?”
Mitzla grunts and walks off, cursing under his breath.
Urgoth: “You shouldn’t insult Mitzla that way, he’s one of our best engineers. And can probably gut you in 2 seconds,” he adds with a straight face. “Well, the last zeppelin leaves at dusk. Let me know if you want a ride. Either way I don’t care.”
Aragorn VI, watching Urgoth walk away, he turns to his captain, “These Uruks are vile creatures, men should not be made to fly as the crow or eagle.”
Gondor Captain, looking up at the zeppelins, “Perhaps sire, but do they serve coffee in those things?”

Does that make any sense to you?

Meh, it’s not a fact per se. It’s an argument based on thematic assumptions. You assume Ascalonians are inherently expansionistic based on the fact they are…human…I guess. And that they settled a geographical basin that was formerly owned by another race.

One extremely good reason not to push further and further is simply because they didn’t have the manpower for it. They were fighting a two-front war. Perhaps, hypothetically speaking, hundreds of years down the line when Ascalon would have been overcrowded, then yes…they might have tried to settle more land. But it certainly wasn’t a reality at the time, where is the evidence of this?

Also, a land settlement would most likely be between two different civilized peoples. The Charr back then were anything but. They were the orcs of Tyria. How odd would it have been in Tolkiens books if Gondor humans and Mordor orcs sat down at a bargaining table in Osgiliath and negotiated land claims and realm boundries. It wouldn’t have made any sense at all with the plot.

Rednik

Hey I can cut and paste too!!

…began construction in 898 AE; it stretches from the Shiverpeak Mountains in the west, to the Eastern Frontier. It was built before the start of the latest Guild Wars, when the Charr threat began to appear imminent once again.

It never said how long it took to build it, that timeline quote is a misprint. It should say “started” since there are other sources which say so. As for my wrong guild wars…you’re right, I was off on that. I assumed it took longer to build than a century I guess, it’s fairly massive. /shrug

At any rate, that’s not the point.

The point is you’re using that classiest of amateur college moves and only quoting part of the relevant text. My quote immediately preceded yours on that wiki page, yet you chose not to use it. #slowhandclap

Also, what is a “settle war”?

Rednik

Dude, you really need to playthrough Prophecies, or at least read over the GW wiki. I’m not making this up.

For one thing, the Wall was started in 898 AE. Ascalon was established by the humans @100 AE. That’s 8 centuries. Let’s say it took 70 years to complete, that means it only stood for 200 years before the Searing Cauldron toppled it. First 8 centuries without a wall, last 2 centuries with it…how is that the first border??

It was built specifically to counter the reemergence of Charr aggression in the north during the 3rd and final guild war between Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr. Ascalon apparently didn’t like the idea of dealing with the other two human nations as well as the Charr, so they designed it to protect the bulk of the population in case of a Charr assault. Heck, even the old capital, Drascir, was north of the wall. As I said, you can simply read about it if you want.

As for humans treating them cruelly, I highly doubt they were the first to take the gloves off. The old Charr had a long history of brutality. And not just to humans, they were plain mean to anything they came across. That was their role in the first game man, they were the apex antagonists. I didn’t write ’em that way, ANet did.

Lastly, you’re trying to incorporate real-life phenomenon into the equation, which just doesn’t work with fantasy writing. Especially for a game. Transportation mechanics and cultural characteristics are relevant in real-life scenarios. But if you are really trying to apply them to a video game culture, you might need some fresh air. That’s just the way they were written. You shouldn’t try to expound on the improbabilities of certain cultural relations between races…unless that’s how they were intended to be portrayed by the developers. In GW1, the Charr eventuality as a playable race was never intended until GW2 development started. I’ll put it simple:

• GW1 Charr —> evil cat race bent on annihilation of anyone they came across
• GW2 Charr —> industrious, militaristic cat race united with the other 4 main races to rid Tyria of the Elder Dragons

The writer’s went to great pains to show them in a new light, and they did a remarkable job with it. But it’s one thing to show a different side of something, and quite another to simply remake it. We’re not just seeing a kinder, gentler side of the Charr now, ANet remade them into something that could be a playable race. Sure they try and pass it off by using 250 years of progress, or atheism supports mechanical inclination, or we only saw them from the humans point of view, or whatever else they can think of. But that’s simply not the case with them. This isn’t a factions game, which means every race has to get along in order for the story to hold any weight. Kapish?

I like Zaxares’ idea, give it to the grawl. It’s not like it matters at this point.

Here’s another map which actually has Gaban’s Estate on it. :/

Rednik

Dude, listen. You might want to play Prophecies to get a better understanding. Again, what Erukk said, plus:

You’re acting like the Charr had settlements in Ascalon, there’s no evidence of that. Most likely it was simply hunting grounds for them, but we really down’t know.

No one tried to coexist because I’m sure neither side wanted to. The Charr of old are not like the steampunky imperial Charr of today, they were primitive beasts who were superior fighters. That Charr Hide armor existed because no one, including the game designers mind you, viewed the Charr as anything but beasts. Oh, and it didn’t help that they usually burned alive their prisoners at the stake, if they didn’t kitten them first.

The Great Northern Wall divides Ascalon in half, it doesn’t encompass it. After the humans and gods pushed the Charr out way back in the day, the humans probably didn’t have enough people to settle all of it and started in the south. You see, the Ascalon Basin is basically a huge circle, Ascalon City sits pretty much in the middle of it. So when they said “expanding north of the wall” they were still in Ascalon. For instance, Duke Gaban’s Estate in the Bonus Mission Pack quest with Gwen is considered to be on the northern boundaries of Ascalon. There’s a lovely map HERE where you can see the wall from a satellite view.

I get that you like the Charr, and that’s fine. But there’s no need to try and make up stuff about their past because it might be hard to accept. Just enjoy them for what they are now: a highly advanced race of militaristic cat-like beings that have a history all their own and don’t need to be compared to humans anymore.

Rednik

What Erukk said, and also…

Since when did Ascalonians try/want to eradicate the Charr. Once the gods settled them in Ascalon, there’s never a mention anywhere of them going further into Charr territory. Nor did they want to, they weren’t genocidal. Not to mention, the actual Guild Wars kept them busy anyway.

I find it rather odd you claim Ascalonians as warmongerers…I seem to recall the Charr nearly wiping humans off the face of the Tyrian continent. And why? Aside from possible influence from Abaddon, it seems to be simply because the humans gave them their first real loss in a fight and they wanted every one of them dead because of it. Or they just like killing stuph. Probably both.

Oh joy, I get to pour gas on the fire again.

Ascalon was never Charr homeland, let’s not get that rumor started. They occupied it at the time the gods brought the humans there, but their homeland is farther north.

As for Devona’s loyalty to Adelbern…well her father was in the same guild as him(Ascalon’s Chosen). But even without that, she was still loyal to him as her king. HERE’S her words in a pre-searing quest.

At any rate, the chance of Ascalon returning to humans is below zero. The devs certainly would never allow that scenario. GW2 isn’t just a game with different combat mechanics than GW1, it’s a very different narrative as well. Personally I think it was a bad storyline decision, but the Charr are there to stay whether we like it or not.

Ursan.7846:

Obsidian.1328:

Sylv.5324:

Enokitake.1742:

You can with ascended gear in WvW though. Like said, its not the same.

You are shifting the goalposts.

Also, it was not possible to ever get rank 10 luxon or kurzick or deldrimor or norn or asura or ebon vanguard or lightbringer, etc, etc, through casual play, let alone quickly.

Now that’s just silly talk. I remember maxing Norn/Asura/Ebon.

I mean, to get to rank 10 required you doing hardmode vanquishes, or turning in hard mode Heroes/Dungeon guides since they don’t accept normal mode stuff beyond r8.

If you’re doing HM, I don’t consider you a casual player.

…or by simply doing the zaishen quests regularly. Those were fun dailies and the coins could actually be traded/given to friends if you wanted to help them out…can you trade laurels? Doing most of those z-quests with all human players in normal mode was very easy, and just moderately challenging in HM.

I hardly ever vanquished. If I did, it was because guildies were going and the game was more fun for me with friends around. If I was solo with hero’s, I actually preferred normal mode simply because I didn’t want the constant challenge and would rather enjoy the show so to speak. Same with dungeons; solo I did them in NM, with guildies HM but it was rare. And we took our time with them.

So no, getting max rank in the EotN titles didn’t mean I wasn’t casual.

Sylv.5324:

Enokitake.1742:

You can with ascended gear in WvW though. Like said, its not the same.

You are shifting the goalposts.

Also, it was not possible to ever get rank 10 luxon or kurzick or deldrimor or norn or asura or ebon vanguard or lightbringer, etc, etc, through casual play, let alone quickly.

Now that’s just silly talk. I remember maxing Norn/Asura/Ebon. For one thing, while it did take several months to do, I still used all of those skills while playing the game with my friends or soloing. I never once sat down at my comp with the purpose to grind out those title tracks through vanguishing or whatever. They just accumulated naturally. And the maxed out skills were only nominally better than the skills at the halfway mark. You could notice a difference if you concentrated on it, but it was subtle.

I was one of the easiest and mildest grinds in a game I’ve ever played. Now if you’re one of those people that are hell-bent on maxing everything as fast as you can…then yes, it’s very grindy. I remember seeing those players around, endlessly vanguishing areas day after day to get there. I just felt sorry for them. And if you think you absolutely need the max rank for elite areas…perhaps you’re just a tad to zealous and impatient about running those areas fast.

There was small crowd of elitists who would demand certain skills be maxed before they would include you in their runs, but they weren’t the majority. I usually would just roll my eyes at them and enjoy the runs taking longer with pugs.

Konig

Agree on your last point, he was a really good villain. Seems very strange that he might have never figured out Abaddon was pulling the strings, especially considering his post-life surroundings, but I suppose anything is possible.

Still don’t think it makes perfect sense though. Shiro may have had a troubled mind and soul, but he just never seemed like the “well I screwed up royally, might as well go in whole hog” type. Then again, insanity bypasses all reasonable explanations. :/

Also, if insanity is Abaddon’s preferred currency, then Adelbern’s Foefire rage has got to be reeeeally suspect. 15 years post Aba-death but perhaps the seed was there already in ANet’s eyes. /shrug

Konig

Umm, what? So you’re saying he went from loyal soldier to disturbed traitor…then back to loyal soldier? I hardly think his honor dictated he had to be loyal to anyone after his fall. At that point he was under his own steam. Everyone knows Shiro was once a noble person. The Teller’s urgings, along with his apparent low self-esteem, helped him make a dark decision he couldn’t escape from. What I don’t get is why, after 200 years and surely finding out the Teller’s motives in the Underworld by then, he doesn’t carry any ill will against Abaddon.

“Oh that was you poisoning my thoughts and making me doubt everything until I finally gave in and killed my master and consequently lost every shred of dignity I had? Meh, w/e…I got over it. Hey, I’ll help you kill these annoying Sunspears if you want, I’m still uber at dual wielding.”

If anything, his honor would dictate he should try and help the PC take him out when they meet him in the Realm of Torment, not side with Abaddon. And even if he was truly evil by that point, and beyond saving, he still would be royally kitten ed at Abaddon. Turning evil doesn’t make you lose your memory. I mean…he waited 200 years to spill royal blood to become mortal again, you don’t think part of that was out of some twisted need for revenge for his former life? Yet with Abaddon, the one who’s allegedly largely responsible for him losing his former life, he’s buddy-buddy. Doesn’t make sense.

So, you’re right in saying he used to be the type of guy to take orders. But that’s certainly not the Shiro we meet in Factions. He’s waaaay past the tenets of duty by then.

drax

Yes, they gave them the opportunity to invade humanity, you’re right. I was simply saying there was no need for Abaddon to be behind any of it. The Titan’s could have existed simply for their own sake just as easily, and influenced the Charr just the same, without Abaddon at all. It wouldn’t have changed anything for the Charr, except perhaps, which you pointed out, singling out Ascalon instead of all 3. Given the portrayal of the Charr in GW1, it’d be a rather large leap of faith to assume they only bared a grudge against Ascalonian humans. After all, they also blamed the human gods for losing Ascalon too right? And all of humanity worshiped them.

draxynnic

I don’t buy it.

You’ll have to define “linked” for me too, I’m not sure how you mean that. By storyline, by theme, by npc’s, by gameplay?

For one thing, Shiro didn’t seem like the type of guy to take orders from anyone, he’d already nixed his duties as an Envoy to get back into the game…game meaning royally sticking it to the emperor(pun intended). Having the Teller influence him makes his slow turn to evil more believable, but having him side with Abaddon at all in Nightfall seemed off. If anything, Shiro seemed like the type of guy to want to get back at the dude who tried to play him. It would have been better if, upon meeting Shiro in the Realm of Torment, he asks you(the PC) to let him Leroy Jenkins on Abaddon in a meaningful(at least to him) form of seppuku.

Same thing with Khilbron really, although he’s probably a little more believable than Shiro for siding with Abaddon in the Realm of Torment. Even so, the way he’s portrayed in Proph he certainly didn’t need Abaddon’s urging(through that advisor ofc) to do what he did…he seemed mightily evil enough on his own.

The Charr…did they really even need an excuse to kill humans? Hardly. The Titans would have been a useful tool in their own right to wiping the Tyrian floor with humanity, they didn’t need encouragement. Or at least that’s how it seemed when you’re playing the game. I mean, the whole point of the Ascalon fiasco hinges on how the Charr got forced out by humans(and their gods) back in the day. Why even add another incentive when none is needed?

It seems to me they added Abaddon’s “behind everything” quality simply because they wanted something to…well…be behind everything. You’re right, it certainly links everything up in that regard. But I hardly think I’m way off the mark when I say that wasn’t their original intentions with Proph and Factions.

draxynnic.3719:

Obsidian.1328:

draxynnic.3719:

On Abaddon…

The “campaign” model GW1 had involved two rotating teams with a one-year cycle for each team. So, while Abaddon was possibly still a Schrodinger when Factions started development, they probably knew who the god behind the curtain was before Factions was finalised.

Where do you get that info? The inspiration for the Factions story was a real-life Korean legend(or fairy tale if you will). I highly doubt the writer’s had Abaddon in mind when creating the Teller/Shiro dynamic. I doubt they had a god in mind at all for that matter. A few npc’s effectively stating “you didn’t just save Cantha, but a greater evil” doesn’t have to make it mean divine intervention. If anything, they most likely left it open-ended for future development…which the Nightfall writers obviously acted on.

ArenaNet was quite public at the time that they had two teams each making a campaign a year, with staggered releases. So while Abaddon may not have been envisaged at the start of Faction’s development, the bare bones at least of Nightfall’s story would have been laid out before the development of Factions had completed.

Frankly, I’d be amazed if they hadn’t reached at least as far as “dark forgotten god” when the invasion of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings happened.

Perhaps, but even so that doesn’t necessarily mean one begets the other. 6 months between releases and Factions doesn’t make it obvious at all about Abaddon. Again, the missions and story play out like he’s not even there. You’d think, if the teams were collaborating, there would be some solid mention of him besides some vague reference to a “bigger threat” or something. I still think Factions was written without the events of Nightfall in mind. However, I don’t think the opposite is true.

Thalador

I wasn’t dissing Abaddon at all, I like him as a villain too. I was merely pointing out that his “responsibility” for a lot of the troubles in GW1 was retroactive in nature. And that he shares the same “behind it all” role as Scarlet.

As for your quotes, they were put in this post on the page before I think. Neither of them state it was Abaddon, or even a divine being at all, behind Shiro. Only that it was dire indeed. It could still be anything at that point.

Flaming Fox

Kryta wasn’t thriving at the time of the Mantle conflict, true. It would be a really boring campaign had it been peaceful. You’re wrong about it being just a few ragtag settlements besides LA though. That’s not how it was portrayed in-game nor through the storyline. Just like Ascalon isn’t meant to only be defined by the areas we actually get to walk in, Krytan lands were assumed to fill in the periphery of our visual experience. It would be silly to, for instance, count the # of npc’s you see in the game and assume that’s an accurate representation of that Krytan province’s population.

Also, Ascalon City being the “last bastion of Ascalon” was only a game reality when GW2 was under development and they needed closure on humans there to make room for the Charr. There is nothing in the GW1 game that suggests Ascalon’s days were numbered, only that it had taken a beating. The Foefire is strictly GW2 material, and should be taken as such.

You’re right about humanity beginning a general dive in GW1, but ANet never bothered to let the players experience any of that decline…which is the single biggest mistake they made with GW2 imo. There are so many good ways they could have slowly integrated the other races into Tyria, even occupying former human land, but they didn’t do that did they. They just waved their wand and bam 250 years gone by and humans are an old hat. If they wanted players to be as passionate with the new races as they were about the humans, they should have done it in a way that didn’t destroy what the players fell in love with in the first place. It seriously boggles the mind why they chose to erase 90% of human culture.

As for Cantha, if it has to be all human, then ANet will never let it see the light of day. There is no way in hell they would make an entire expansion for just one race. End of story. Same with Elona for that matter.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

About ley lines being unknown – they were unknown until only the past two or so years. It’s not like we today know everything about the Earth yet (think about the deep sea waters and how unexplored those still are), but if you compared it to, say, the industrial revolution era? Even less of Earth was known. It’s expected for Tyrians to not know everything about the world at this point, even with magic given how little is actually shown to us about it – and how much of its natures is being discovered still.

For example, until Gorr it was thought magic was an infinite resource.

That’s not the point.

The point is not that it’s possible Tyrians just didn’t know about ley lines yet. Of course it’s possible.

The point is the inclusion of ley lines in the first place is not only tropish and unimaginative, but also lazy. It’s not ok, in terms of creative writing, to simply copy and paste common fantasy ideas for no apparent legitimate reason other than “cuz their cool” and players already know what they are so they don’t need to explain them too much. lol

draxynnic.3719:

On Abaddon…

The “campaign” model GW1 had involved two rotating teams with a one-year cycle for each team. So, while Abaddon was possibly still a Schrodinger when Factions started development, they probably knew who the god behind the curtain was before Factions was finalised.

Where do you get that info? The inspiration for the Factions story was a real-life Korean legend(or fairy tale if you will). I highly doubt the writer’s had Abaddon in mind when creating the Teller/Shiro dynamic. I doubt they had a god in mind at all for that matter. A few npc’s effectively stating “you didn’t just save Cantha, but a greater evil” doesn’t have to make it mean divine intervention. If anything, they most likely left it open-ended for future development…which the Nightfall writers obviously acted on.

Eh, I never said they created “a force” behind the Teller after-the-fact. Only that they hadn’t decided on that force being Abaddon until later.

Deciding to have some vague, unnamed villain behind the curtains is one thing. Deciding to make that villain the same one in the current story you’re working on(Nightfall) is quite another.

It’s not a “Schrodinger’s Cat” scenario if you don’t know it’s a cat in the box until you open it later. It’s “Schrodinger’s Creature” I guess. lol

Wait, so your saying that you think the force behind the Fortuneteller was always going to be Abaddon? And that perhaps the long tale of Abaddon was in fact the result of this as-yet-unnamed force in Factions?

Why couldn’t it simply have been someone or something else behind the Teller, and still keep the current Abaddon story in Nightfall?

Konig

I totally agree with your reasons why Scarlet is both different and…erm…suckier than Abaddon. I’d argue the “force behind Shiro” point though. Having a name for the man behind the curtain, and simply knowing there’s “something” behind it all, are two different things. Sure ANet may have some glimmering idea of a bigger fish pulling the strings, and meant to implement it later, but I don’t think who exactly that was supposed to be was finalized until Nightfall personally. Or at least until development was underway for it.

It’s one thing to have a vague understanding of a great power behind the main plot of that campaign. It’s quite another to solidly tie that in with the other two campaigns. They could have used a lot of possibilities really, but they chose to go with the Abaddon theme.

What really stinks about power LB is 99% of the time my havoc group wants Spotter. Which means I have to choose between Piercing Arrows and Eagle Eye, can’t have both. Eagle Eye is usually the one I drop, it still sucks though. Also, can’t have the Beastmaster Sig at all with that set up. They put all 4 traits I need for my havoc LB build in 2 slots.

Darmikau.9413:

-snip-

Oh I agree they are very different in character and motives. My point was simply that the same people who gave us “Abaddon’s behind everything” are the same ones who gave us Scarlet. Up until EotN or perhaps Nightfall, there was nothing in the lore that implied Abaddon was behind Shiro(and I mean indirectly through the fortuneteller), the Titans, or the Cataclysm. That stuff was inserted into the lore post-script. The core of the dev team now got their start with Nightfall and EotN. If you look at it that way Scarlet makes more sense, unfortunately so.

I don’t know why this whole Scarlet thing surprises anyone.

I mean, nearly the same thing happened with GW1 with Abaddon. He was rewritten to be behind not just Nightfall, but the Searing and Shiro as well. Same major players in the dev team too.

Vayne.8563:

I love how people think if devs would only listen to people the game would be better. I hate to break it to you, mate, but the devs have listened to people. They didn’t listen to the people you agree with. For every person who says they should have duels in the game, for example, another says they shouldn’t. For every person who says that there should be harder more challenging content, someone says the game is too hard. For every person who says they hate zerging, someone says to leave zerging alone.

This illusionary consensus people keep talking about is just that….illusionary. It doesn’t exist.

Everyone likes to think their point of view is the majority point of view. We can’t all be right.

No, but there is such a thing as a general consensus, or even a majority one. You make it sound like everything is equal parts pro and con and that’s just not the case. You’re right it’s hard to judge which opinions reflect obscurity and which reflect commonality based just on these forums. But to simply say the validity of most everyone’s point of view is illusionary is silly.

The point is to find some kind of consensual truth in all of this. That’s not an impossible thing.

Mikhail.4961:

So, Scarlet’s in the Thaumonova Reactor, being her usual annoying, dabbling in every single thing there is, self. She talks about discovering the magical network going across the planet (ley-lines) so the disaster wasn’t a complete waste. I don’t mind a little extra knowledge, though to be fair, we kind of knew all that already – I just don’t want any more of Scarlet’s constant presence.

here’s the conversation btw.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Reactor approaching critical, panicked evacuation, general mayhem and hysteria… Yep, I’d say my work is here is done.
Sorry about all the death, and for the portal pandemonium.
I told the Inquest chaos energy was a misnomer. Mind you, dragon energy is tricky, so I can see how they flubbed it.
At least they helped identify the network of magical channels that crisscrossed the globe. That was a breakthrough.
Now we know how NOT to do this kind of research right on an intersection of those channels. Live and learn, right?
That’s progress. Hooray for progress! Ooh, but it’s getting a bit too deadly in here for me. ‘Bye now!

They put ley-lines into GW2? Wow.

Anyone else think this game is turning into the amalgamated fantasy soup of dozens of other games out there? It’s like…the purgatory of fantasy tropes. :/

FlamingFoxx

Kryta was a lot bigger in GW1. It stretched into Maguuma and south as well. Riverside Province is all Asuran and Sylvari land now. And Sanctum Cay is Tengu. And Centaurs were only found in Maguuma. North of LA and east of Beetletun all the way to the Shiverpeaks was Krytan land. More importantly though, Krytans were changed from a “mediterranean” race with olive skin and unique architecture into a “one size fits all” white Euro-race. The same style all humans use now, regardless of origin.

Ascalon wasn’t gone by any means, they won the Charr war after all. Adelbern and Ascalon defeated the Titans thus breaking the Charr power base. The fact that ANet decided to “reload” the Charr demise in EotN and later insta-spawn yet another massive horde to wipe out Ascalon for good was only done for 2 reasons: to provide GW2 racial parity in terms of living space(every race should have roughly equal territory in terms of size), and to reduce humanity to a single kingdom to avoid unbalanced racial hegemony. It was done purely for marketing GW2 to a new audience, not for any lore-related reasons.

Orr was dead, yes.

The Crystal Desert belonged to no one really. The Forgotten perhaps?

The Shiverpeaks was Dwarf territory. I can see how ANet might not want to make the Dwarves a playable race for GW2, they are way too common in these games. But all they really did was replace them with tall humans who act just like dwarves. More individualistic and spiritual perhaps, but essentially the same thing. That’s another topic though.

Humans weren’t in large quantities simply because the GW1 game engine wouldn’t allow it. It was an “assumed” portrayal. For instance, seeing those random castles you couldn’t get to in Kryta was meant to imply population and civilization. They weren’t just for show.

As for Cantha and Elona…do you really think, if they ever decide to actually make an expansion, that those areas will be human anymore? 99% chance they are overrun by the other 4 races. Why? Because it’s not in ANet’s best interests that any one race should surpass any other. Everything has to be equal.

Even if that means going against the very foundational history with which you base your game on.

One would have thought GW2 would have finished what GW1 started and had no levels at all. A game totally based on build depth, skill hunting, and wanderlust exploration…

Instead they went the exact opposite and increased the grind fourfold. /facepalm

Lucien

Hmm, I never actually thought much about keeping the playable race as only human for GW2. I suppose I always thought that there were simply better ways to go about it than what they did here. I agree with a lot of your sentiments, although I will say other playable races were always on the devs mind’s…even as far back as Prophecies. They just didn’t have the resources to implement it back then.

They could have done one simple thing to avoid a ton of this mess:

Don’t replace human history and culture…just ADD to it!

Honestly…Tyria is a huge place. Why they couldn’t utilize all that empty space out there for new races I have no idea. Instead they chose to almost completely dismantle and neuter the existing human civilizations to “make room” for the new guys. It just makes no sense to me.

You don’t need to destroy one race to create 4 others.

Wait a minute…

…there are still players out there that think getting first in points means they are the best pvp server?

lulz

Not bad, reminds me of Samurai Jack kinda.

Dondarrion.2748:

DaShi.1368:

Who decides what is and what is not Guild Wars lore? The players or Anet? I’ve seen many posts on these forums telling Anet that certain things are not part of the lore. So if it is the players who decide, who among them get to decide?

Getting back to the topic at hand, I’d say Anet obviously holds the IP rights to the official lore of Tyria – both in GW1 and now GW2 with all its retcons. Fans making or claiming the lore is or should be different are simply making fan-fiction, yes, they may be passionate – and even right in refuting certain new lore pieces – but as for who gets to decide – it’s the people at Anet.

I really don’t think anyone would deny that…like, at all. I assumed the poster was simply fishing for another tired lore discussion lol.

lordkrall.7241:

If you are playing WvW for rewards you are doing it wrong.

I really don’t get why people feel like they must get “epix lootz” in order to do anything in a game.
What happened to playing for the sake of playing?
Playing for fun?

Meh, I do actually play W3 for fun. Problem is I don’t zerg and loot is a rare thing indeed for me. I struggle to keep a positive cash flow.

Rares have a 1% chance to drop?…

Good grief that’s low. In my head that should be the % on exotics lol.

I’ll do a 180 and play devil’s advocate for a change.

If you were a dev at ArenaNet @2006-2012, and knowing GW2 was going to be full-on multi-racial, how would you go about providing cultural parity betwixt the humans and everyone else?

How would you insert multiple races into a single-race world(in terms of playable races) with their own deities which, let’s face it, overwhelmingly favor that one race?

lordkrall.7241:

ThiBash.5634:

Think of it more like an audience telling a writer wheter or not they like his/her new book and what exactly they like/dislike about it.

That is however what is happening here in some cases.
There have been several situations where people have said that the lore-writes were WRONG and didnt know the lore. And THAT is quite silly, since they are after all the ones writing the lore.

That’s like saying I could buy all the rights to Superman, make him green-skinned, horned, and is a violent drunk, then simply claim “that’s not only how it is now, that’s how it always was” since I threw all of the old material into a giant bonfire outside the studio. Insanely extreme example, but you get my point.

These guys now didn’t write the original material. That’s what we mean when we say “this stuff just doesn’t add up”. How hard is that to understand?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Some of the things that Anet has been changing is little different than us in 1000 years from now saying that George Washington was a dictator who insighted a revolution to lead a new country into tyranny, but had a change of heart later in his life.

What in the world are you talking about here. I swear, sometimes I think people think Tyria is a real place. It’s nothing like that example. Washington really existed. Guild Wars is entirely fiction. Its truth is subject to whatever the writers were trying to say at the time it was written. It has nothing to do with in-game character point-of-view…mostly because that point-of-view is whatever the writer wants it to be. If the writers chose to use a real-life cultural phenomenon like “modern inquiry shedding light on the folly of past beliefs” or something, that’s just their way of using a writing method to give credence to the changes they want to make with the story. It happens all the time in literature, especially in sequels and series reprisals.

No two people are alike in how they tell a story or in how they want a story to unfold. It’s simply a different creative writer. Not to mention a different company(with a different agenda) paying the writer. That’s really all it is.

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

It may sound insane to some but it’s obvious GW2 is proving my point by not having a subscription fee. I never said I don’t support games, I simply said I see no point in paying a sub for an mmo that doesn’t meet the standards of GW2. From what I’ve played thus far, and I’ve played many mmo’s, none of them stand up to GW2.

This will be the last time I make this point. I don’t want to continue going in circles around this subject.

It’s more than a little smug to state your opinion on this, then say the equivalent of “the argument is now over”. One of the purposes of these forums is for…well…arguing your point after all.

Your statement entirely depends on what you mean by “standards”. Personally, I’d agree with you on several things: graphics, action-oriented combat, and the many ease-of-use mechanics in the game like node-sharing, kill-sharing, wallet, etc. Other things I have issue with: lackluster storyline, poor optimization, alt-unfriendliness, time-gated gear progression, tiny build diversity, no guild halls, no expansion, zergs…

The cons, for me, outweigh the pros. For you they obviously don’t. A monthly fee isn’t wrong in and of itself, it’s only wrong if a company fails to deliver on it. ANet can wax poetic all day long on how their “no-fee” model is superior to every other out there, but everything boils down to quality. Yes, you’re guaranteed not to pay if you don’t want to, but what exactly are you not paying for again?

It’s kind of like this.

notebene.3190:

phys.7689:

this is what complaining about clipping brings, the truth is, running with overly large weapons and various other odd shapped items would require you to run in weird ways, so you can choose loook cool running or not clipping, yall complained and got not clipping, now you cant look cool.

also, i wish the devs had spent animation money/time on new skill animations (charachter movements) way too many skills use same movements, like bluured frenzy hundred blades pistol whip etc. Or you could just make totally new animations for new weapons/skill swaps…

Honestly, I’ve never understood the obsession with clipping. I mean, there are degrees, of course, and ‘bad’ clipping is terrible. But whatever it was before that made them change the running? What, swords in my clothes, or something? That has never bothered me.

I mean, when I put my staff away, it hovers behind my back. To me, most of that is a level of suspension of disbelief.

But the character itself has always been one of the most sacred things to me.

So I guess it’s a matter of perspective, with winners and losers.

^
I don’t get it either. It’s an MMO with hundreds of different looks to every character: armor skins, weapon skins, hair, race, gender, combat animations, etc… I don’t understand how some fabric overlap can ruin the experience for someone. How can anyone not expect clipping to be present in a game like this? It’s normal. /sigh

GuildWarsPlayer.5608:

It’s not the price of the subscription for sub based games that turns some players off, it’s the idea of continuously charging a player to simply play a game that has already been purchased.

That’s a very conditional statement.

How big is the game world? How much content does it offer the player? How viable is replayability? How customizable are the characters? How social of a game is it? Etc.

There are many factors involved in prolonging the lifespan of a game in relation to a single player. Money, or subbing, is just one of them. And not really a big one unless you’re either really young or really poor. Like someone said earlier, give up a Happy Meal(or two) a month for it. If you think about it, charging 20 bucks a month for unlimited play is actually really cheap…even if you already bought the game… as long as the game company provides adequate services to befit the sub.

Adding nothing at all over time is obviously not going to cut it. Constant updates and/or the occasional(usually annual) expansion is the normal route to do that. The biggest question is quality of said content.

In other words, does new content suck or not suck. Simply stating “But they constantly keep adding stuph!” over and over doesn’t amount to much if it’s not that good. Not commenting on this game’s new content(not here anyway), just saying it’s usually all about the quality. At least in the long run it is, locusts will try anything you shove in their face.

^

Lol, I fit into 3 of those 4 categories, and Achiever isn’t one of them.

Makes so much sense now. :P

Ricky.4706:

gw2 is more of an mmofps game than a mmorpg, and that’s why people think server transfers are irrelevant.

lol, I never thought about it like that but you could be right. I might change it to “mmotpg” though: 3rd-person shooter.

Mesket.5728:

Face it, GW2 is closer to Wow than GW1.

That’s been a foregone conclusion for awhile now. :/

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Obsidian.1328:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Obsidian.1328:

^

Seriously, I want to know.

Why in the heck is all of this stuff temporary? Replayability is the lifeblood of these kinds of games. Mini-quests and holiday festivals are expected to be temporal, but when the main storyline stops being something you have access to…what the heck is the point? The LS is slowly but surely eclipsing the PS in terms of relevance…and it’s 100% temporary?

I just don’t get it. A “living, breathing world” is great, but at least, at least, make it something you can revisit.

Because they are trying to mimic the living world. To make their world feel alive.

You’re every day life is your main story…. do your events last forever? Do you have a birthday party every day? Do you watch your child being born repeatedly, day after day (I’d feel so sorry for that woman). Conversely would you want to have to relive the planes flying into the twin towers, and then watch those towers fall every day? Since, not all events are necessarily ‘happy’ moments.

We do not live in an unending, never changing loop. We cannot ‘revisit’ our pasts, except in memory. From my understanding, this is the goal ANet is striving for. To create a ‘living’ world, similar to the real world. As such, events will come and go. Some should leave behind significant changes…some should leave behind subtle changes. All should leave some memory with the player.

Have they achieved this goal yet? No, they have lots of work to do.

Are they getting there? Little by little, I feel.

Could we use some type of historian? Sure.

Just as we have books, and videos, etc to help us remember in the real world, I could easily see something similar in the game. Manuscripts written by priory scholars, npcs we could talk to to trigger cut scenes or dialog to fill us in on what’s happened.

That’s ridiculous.

That kind of thinking comes with the GIANT caveat that you have the time to fully do everything. What is this adherence to trying to emulate real-life chronology? You’re supposed to be able to revisit things you like. That’s why these games are so cool…because they aren’t like real-life where if you miss a deadline or get stuck in traffic you’re screwed. Why in the world would anyone want to make a hundred different story events for players to enjoy, but each of them only available for 2 weeks?

And even if you did manage to enjoy all of some temp content, and it was your favorite stuff you’ve ever done in the game…it’s still gone for good in a few days. What in the wide, wide, world of sports were they trying to accomplish with that? The only thing I can think of is bitter sentimentality.

Even so, it’s a game that’s supposed to be entertaining. Some of your favorite movies you’ll watch over and over and over and still get enjoyment out of it. It’s the same with games. If you like certain aspects of the game, you’ll spend most of your time there. What is so hard about having both options: continue advancing the storyline, yet keep a lot of the things you’ve done in-game as an option to revisit…at least for alts…or as a personal instance…or something.

This diehard insistence on temporary content is mind-boggling.

To add: No I wouldn’t want to watch my child being born everyday…in person. But I’d certainly want to watch it on video every now and then to remind myself how joyous that moment was. Even 9/11, I would watch again(and have btw) if only to remind myself of how fragile and precious our freedoms are in America. It’s a good thing to be able to remind yourself of that by revisiting it. Replayability of storyline events in games is essentially the same idea, if on a much more casual scale.

Very simply put, you’re not supposed to do everything. They are trying to do something different. They aren’t trying to be like every other game out there. You don’t like it, that’s fine. You want a ‘living’ world that is not actually living, and that’s ok, but that’s not what they are striving for.

And yes, as I said… a historian or some such in game, to rewatch cut scenes etc. Similarly to how we have books and videos in real life.

But it’s not real…

All of this is make believe and should be taken as such. Trying to make it adhere to all the rules of real life is folly. We play these games because they are fun and entertain us. We don’t play them because they are alternate realities…if you are, you might need to get some fresh air.

If a game sacrifices an insanely obvious convenience mechanic like story replayability for the sake of staying “chronological” or w/e, ANet might to get some fresh air…

Simple suggestion:

Make storyline content like picking districts was in GW1. Only the districts are really time-periods. For instance, you could pick between pre- and post-Molten Alliance timeframes in Wayfarer Foothills. Just have it as an option when you choose the area. And when something else down the storyline changes the look/feel/culture of the Foothills slightly, add a 3rd option to toggle to.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Obsidian.1328:

^

Seriously, I want to know.

Why in the heck is all of this stuff temporary? Replayability is the lifeblood of these kinds of games. Mini-quests and holiday festivals are expected to be temporal, but when the main storyline stops being something you have access to…what the heck is the point? The LS is slowly but surely eclipsing the PS in terms of relevance…and it’s 100% temporary?

I just don’t get it. A “living, breathing world” is great, but at least, at least, make it something you can revisit.

Because they are trying to mimic the living world. To make their world feel alive.

You’re every day life is your main story…. do your events last forever? Do you have a birthday party every day? Do you watch your child being born repeatedly, day after day (I’d feel so sorry for that woman). Conversely would you want to have to relive the planes flying into the twin towers, and then watch those towers fall every day? Since, not all events are necessarily ‘happy’ moments.

We do not live in an unending, never changing loop. We cannot ‘revisit’ our pasts, except in memory. From my understanding, this is the goal ANet is striving for. To create a ‘living’ world, similar to the real world. As such, events will come and go. Some should leave behind significant changes…some should leave behind subtle changes. All should leave some memory with the player.

Have they achieved this goal yet? No, they have lots of work to do.

Are they getting there? Little by little, I feel.

Could we use some type of historian? Sure.

Just as we have books, and videos, etc to help us remember in the real world, I could easily see something similar in the game. Manuscripts written by priory scholars, npcs we could talk to to trigger cut scenes or dialog to fill us in on what’s happened.

That’s ridiculous.

That kind of thinking comes with the GIANT caveat that you have the time to fully do everything. What is this adherence to trying to emulate real-life chronology? You’re supposed to be able to revisit things you like. That’s why these games are so cool…because they aren’t like real-life where if you miss a deadline or get stuck in traffic you’re screwed. Why in the world would anyone want to make a hundred different story events for players to enjoy, but each of them only available for 2 weeks?

And even if you did manage to enjoy all of some temp content, and it was your favorite stuff you’ve ever done in the game…it’s still gone for good in a few days. What in the wide, wide, world of sports were they trying to accomplish with that? The only thing I can think of is bitter sentimentality.

Even so, it’s a game that’s supposed to be entertaining. Some of your favorite movies you’ll watch over and over and over and still get enjoyment out of it. It’s the same with games. If you like certain aspects of the game, you’ll spend most of your time there. What is so hard about having both options: continue advancing the storyline, yet keep a lot of the things you’ve done in-game as an option to revisit…at least for alts…or as a personal instance…or something.

This diehard insistence on temporary content is mind-boggling.

To add: No I wouldn’t want to watch my child being born everyday…in person. But I’d certainly want to watch it on video every now and then to remind myself how joyous that moment was. Even 9/11, I would watch again(and have btw) if only to remind myself of how fragile and precious our freedoms are in America. It’s a good thing to be able to remind yourself of that by revisiting it. Replayability of storyline events in games is essentially the same idea, if on a much more casual scale.

^

Seriously, I want to know.

Why in the heck is all of this stuff temporary? Replayability is the lifeblood of these kinds of games. Mini-quests and holiday festivals are expected to be temporal, but when the main storyline stops being something you have access to…what the heck is the point? The LS is slowly but surely eclipsing the PS in terms of relevance…and it’s 100% temporary?

I just don’t get it. A “living, breathing world” is great, but at least, at least, make it something you can revisit.

Rachlovesbenny.9312:

To be honest, I wouldn’t mind having to pay monthly to play this game if it meant that content was delivered into the game rather than into the in game store.

Exactly.

Right now they have very little incentive to do so though. As long as they can keep getting in new players to replace the one’s leaving, they don’t need to change.

Vayne.8563:

Obsidian.1328:

Just because something is there, dangling in front of you like a carrot, doesn’t mean you need to go after it.

Exactly, glad we agree. This is true of both Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2.

…

Then don’t use a skill “carrot” as the basis for your argument about GW1 gameplay.

Even so, the degree of optional “grindiness”(for lack of a better word) is light years apart between GW1 & 2. The end-game fun back then was coming up will cool and interesting ways to play your toon in hard areas with your friends. The end-game fun now is…what…skins?

What logic is behind that decision?