Guild Wars 2

Actinotus.6410:

Obsidian.1328:

Actinotus

So, to answer your question, anyone who wants to help the server beat the other two servers in W3 has a greater right to be there. Why would someone who doesn’t care about winning deserve a place on the field?

We’d better not bring up GvG then…

Why wouldn’t we do that?

Andrew Clear.1750:

So, why should anet please the minority of players on t1 at the expanse of the majority on all the other tiers? Sounds like a bad business decision. You can’t please everyone, so the best course of action is to please the maximum amount of people that you can.

Wait, so lower tier servers want a PvE meta in W3?

I have no idea, I’m honestly asking.

Actinotus

Well…whoever wants to play W3 for what it is, not what they try to force it to be, would be my answer.

So you’re saying that someone who wants to roam the map filling out achievement quota’s has a bigger right to be there than say, I don’t know, someone who wants to contribute to the match and help us win?

Your argument would be valid had they been trying to help since day one. But the one’s who are just in it for some PvE points could care less about the match. I’m not saying all of the new influx of players do, most don’t. But to say they deserve to be there simply because it’s their server doesn’t make any sense.

I absolutely suck at some PvE content, mostly because I don’t care about it. Do I tell people who guest here to do Teq to wait at the back of the line if I wanted to try it out? No, because that would be silly. He/she deserves it more than me because they actually care about it. Why would that bother me?

PvP and PvE are separate entities, usually with vastly different crowds and player-types. It’s been this way since the dawn of time. What in the world is wrong with that? It’s always been like that. It’s normal.

So, to answer your question, anyone who wants to help the server beat the other two servers in W3 has a greater right to be there. Why would someone who doesn’t care about winning deserve a place on the field?

I don’t understand some of the comments on here.

If new players want to try out W3 and make a meaningful contribution, we’re all for it. It’s PvP folks, not PvE…despite what even the devs say or intended it to be.

Imagine a football team picking random people out of the crowd to play a game. Who cares if the team has been playing together all year, those fans bought season tickets and deserve to be there! Even if they just try to get “achievements” like 10 first downs in a game or 5 interceptions…

/rolleyes

Any of the top tier servers would gladly welcome new players if they are serious about W3. But that’s just not what is happening. Achievement hunting has no place in PvP.

Also, we’re well aware that world completion requires finishing the W3 maps. We’ve been wanting ANet to change that since day 1, but it never materialized for whatever reason. It’s unfortunate that hasn’t changed, to be quite honest.

phys.7689:

heres the problem with all these threads,

you guys want WvW to fail.

The truth is the more people who get involved with and who enjoy WvW, the better it really will get, the better it will be supported.

you guys are just mad because you had your own little corner and no one cared, so you had it to yourself, now, its being improved, and has become more rewarding so others are getting involved.

Why would Anet put time and effort into solving things like lag with many players and skill delay, if there is never a lot of people fighting? Why would they dedicate large amounts of resources to new maps, if they are doing it for a mode only 5% of the playerbase plays? Why would they continue if players who used to WvW 2 hours are slowly cutting their time to 10 minutes, and maybe an hour on weekends?

the truth is the more people who play and are interested in WvW, the better it will be, and the stronger future it has.

You guys want your apartment to be crappy and in a crime infested neighborhood so that no one comes there and rent is cheap, that type of thinking leads to you getting evicted when they close the building.

Instead of telling Anet to make WvW less appealing, tell them to make more maps, and new content. If anet sees that all servers generally can support more people, they are going to build in more new areas/expand etc. Try to think about more than just how long your queue was for the opening weekend of the biggest deal in Wvw since launch, and more about how to get even more players so that you will have a better game

More players != better W3

The lag issue has always been there. The culling removal helped some, but they never really fixed it. Flooding the servers with endless players does little to help that when there are already queues on a daily basis.

As for lower tier servers, do you really want players there that are just interested in the achievements? I would think you’d want PvPers that want to compete, not just checkmark off a list.

As for you first point, you couldn’t be farther from the truth. Most of us like W3 because it’s competition and teamwork driven, and not about the PvE meta. We don’t want it to fail, I don’t know why you think that. Perhaps because of the whining going on right now?

The backlash is directed at the inclusion of the achievements themselves, not necessarily at the players in general. We see it as an attempt by ANet to try and push PvE content into a game-mode that shouldn’t have it. They figured out long ago that if you dangle endless carrots in front gamers, a lot of them will crave it…regardless of what the carrots are. That kind of mentality is counter to everything that makes W3 great. So simply throwing carrots into the mix doesn’t make it better, it just makes it worse because it doesn’t address the root issues at all.

Honestly, sometimes I don’t know if they play W3 all that much, or understand the community there.

Hmm, so just 1 condi cleanse and some burning. At least it’s a fire field you can blast. :/

Anen.1742:

Obsidian.1328:

What rewards do the achievements get you?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Season_1_Reward_Chest_Key
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Season_1_Achievement_Chest
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Season_1_Participation_Bag
Title: Veteran of the Mists

I told you you were not up to date with WvW. (note I did not say rewards are good)

No, I know about those chests. That’s not my point. My point is simply remove the “achievement” value of it. If we want better rewards/drops/whatever, simply implement them into already existing avenues like lord kills or tower flipping. There’s no reason to have an achievement for them.

The majority of player influx into the Borderlands is not for the loot(it’s much better in PvE anyway), it’s for the achievement points.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Commander

That will help you a little…

The best advice I can give is to treat everyone with respect. It will get you very far in W3.

Tongku.5326:

Obsidian.1328:

Please remove the ridiculous new achievements from W3, they are ruining the gameplay in it. WvWvW(W3) has a very strong community and is arguably the finest aspect of the entire game. It’s hallmark being the level of inter-server competition and intra-server cooperation, tier populations notwithstanding.

The introduction of dozens of new achievements has caused not only an influx of new players into the Borderlands who don’t care about the match-up, but it creates a queue nightmare in which very few guilds are getting their members in. This leads to a breakdown of server effectiveness in which the carefully laid plans and group builds become insignificant and pointless.

W3 may have been intended as a PvE light combat zone, but the reality is that the PvP here is the most competitive aspect of the game by far. Trying to force some kind of PvE meta into W3 with these achievement carrots is not only wrong, but game-breaking. Leave the achievement rat-race in PvE; it’s not needed, nor welcome here.

Hi OP

Please speak only for yourself and your guild / community / server if you represent such. Do not falsely assume all of us share your sentiments, because we do not.

We very much welcome the new players this has brought in as well as the rewards provided by these achievements as it is a right step in adressing the disparity between WvW and PvE reward systems.

What rewards do the achievements get you?

DeckerDontPlay.1639:

Getting new players into WvW is not a bad thing…..

If they are there to help your server win, I agree.

If they are there to simply hunt achievements, then it is a bad thing.

According to the wiki, the condi cleanse and burning is applied only on the initial pulse. Does this mean the remaining pulses are strictly for the fire field and the condi-duration reduction buff?

Meglobob.8620:

I agree with the majority of what the OP said…

But I would like to add, why no DEFENSIVE achievements like:

Defend sm 3 times
Defend keeps 10 times
Defend 20 towers
Build 10 AC’s in a sm/keep/tower
Pay for a ugrade at any fortification/supply camp

There are no defensive achievements at all, its no wonder most players assume defense is worthless…

This is exactly why achievements shouldn’t be in W3. They provide an incentive to do the wrong things. You’ll get players buying the wrong upgrades, or building the wrong siege, or using tower/keep supply to build that siege, or tagging along with the zerg in gear that isn’t statted for it…simply to get the achievement.

Why should players who are trying to win the match be forced to deal with this? They have no place in W3.

If it was only the longer queues, it wouldn’t be a big issue. It’s the achievements given out for doing random things. W3 is based around map cooperation, timing, siege and resource management, voice comms, etc. Not to mention group play and skill interaction. A lot of times things that seem insignificant, like going out of your way for a minute to kill a yak when you’re watching a tower, have dire consequences. They may seem trivial to some, but added up it can mean the difference between holding and losing your BL.

Anen.1742:

Obsidian.1328:

Odd analogy I know, but it’s even more odd and out of place that ANet would put these achievements into W3. Not only do they add absolutely nothing to the competition, but they actually make it harder for a server to get anything done. It’s counter to the very essence of organized teamwork in a competitive arena.

Because what you think WvW is, is not the WvW we are fighting in. So as I said, adapt yourself to WvW and do not wait for the opposite.

Actually, what ANet thinks W3 is, is not the W3 we are fighting on. It’s not PvE. If they think it is they have some major issues to work out with reality.

Original intentions don’t mean squat when god and all creation are telling you something different.

robotempire.2451:

Yeah, this has just been a huge blunder. I try to constrain hyperbole about this stuff because it’s just a game, and devs are people who put in a lot of work on making it fun. But whoever was involved in making the decision to entice even more users to play WvW when servers were crushed on reset nights anyway needs to have their hand slapped or worse.

^

Werd.

They aren’t called guild raids.

“Raiding” started as a PvE dungeon organization, which probably has its roots in pre-WoW days. I don’t know anyone on my server(or other servers for that matter) that calls it “raiding.” We just call it WvW.

There are 3 roles to play in W3: zerging, small-man/roaming, and scouting/escorting. Raiding is probably closest to zerging, but it’s still not the same thing.

Also, simply saying “adapt” is erroneous if you don’t evaluate the changes. I mean, by that rational they could throw anything at all in to W3 and we would be expected to “adapt.” Why not put Tequatl at Bay and Jormag at Hills…who cares if it doesn’t make sense, just adapt! Achievements are fine for PvE, but they have no place in a competitive arena.

Imagine if they gave NFL players little bonuses and titles for, say, # of fumbles caused in a game. Not only would it break the game by providing an incentive incongruent to actually winning the game, but the amount of broken backs and necks would skyrocket. Odd analogy I know, but it’s even more odd and out of place that ANet would put these achievements into W3. Not only do they add absolutely nothing to the competition, but they actually make it harder for a server to get anything done. It’s counter to the very essence of organized teamwork in a competitive arena.

Anen.1742:

Obsidian.1328:

Anen.1742:

Achievements did not kill guild raids. Guild raids failed to include Pick Up in their raid, and therefore guild raids are killing themselves.

…

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

This is exactly why you are complaining. Because you have no idea what is going on in WvWvW. WvWvW has to face new challenges with the League. Adapt yourself.

No…I’m wondering where guild raids come into this. W3 isn’t about guild raids, that’s a PvE thing. Where are these raids? What server has guild raids in W3??

And I doubt you’ve spent more time than me in W3.

And there’s no reason a League has to include achievements. Why is that implied?

Vena.8436:

CharlieBear.2741:

I don’t remember ever asking for better rewards and achievements in WvW.

It would take you maybe a few page flips through this forum to find a number of threads about rewards. Its been a topic in this forum for ages. Welcome to being in a community, where not voicing your opinion will hurt you because it skews perception.

mako.2431:

Do you people listen to yourselves? Basically you are saying it is our fault we cannot play because we wanted WvW to be better than it was. Talk about incomprehensibly stupid….

And for the record I wanted what WvW is to be improved, not add PvE crap to it.

I listen to myself just fine, I have to deal with these queues too. I just knew months in advance what people were asking for was a stupid idea. Too many people wanted to be “rewarded” for WvWing, and now when they get rewarded, they complain that other people, who also like to be rewarded, started playing.

Its not hard to realize what will happen when rewards are added to a thing.

Actually, what most W3’ers wanted was decent loot drops that were on par with PvE…or at least close to it. That’s it. We didn’t want tons of gold, we didn’t want precursors to fall from the sky, and we certainly didn’t want any achievements creeping into W3. That’s about the last thing any dedicated W3 player wanted.

Anen.1742:

Achievements did not kill guild raids. Guild raids failed to include Pick Up in their raid, and therefore guild raids are killing themselves.

…

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Please remove the ridiculous new achievements from W3, they are ruining the gameplay in it. WvWvW(W3) has a very strong community and is arguably the finest aspect of the entire game. It’s hallmark being the level of inter-server competition and intra-server cooperation, tier populations notwithstanding.

The introduction of dozens of new achievements has caused not only an influx of new players into the Borderlands who don’t care about the match-up, but it creates a queue nightmare in which very few guilds are getting their members in. This leads to a breakdown of server effectiveness in which the carefully laid plans and group builds become insignificant and pointless.

W3 may have been intended as a PvE light combat zone, but the reality is that the PvP here is the most competitive aspect of the game by far. Trying to force some kind of PvE meta into W3 with these achievement carrots is not only wrong, but game-breaking. Leave the achievement rat-race in PvE; it’s not needed, nor welcome here.

Boomstin.3460:

Longbow range base 1200 + 300 with trait
Shortbow range base 900 + 300 with trait

Thanks.

That’s really how it should be. It forces you to put 20 in power and would probably take away from either tankiness or condi-dmg. Hardly OP at all. I’d even give up the +5% LB damage on Eagle Eye if shortbow range would replace it.

And a follow up…

Which came first, the Tengu or the egg?

nagymbear.5280:

GOSU.9574:

Uh…hello cripples and such? Not enough time for me to list your options, figure them out.

Or default to doing what warriors in GW1 did, curse them and call them babies for not standing there and fighting.

Shortbow #4,5, only has 900 range, axe 3 only has 900 range, dagger #5, good luck landing that ever, greatsword #4 not sure on its range, but my guess would be its below 901, muddy terrain 900 range. It has become hard to stop someone trying to flee with the shortbow range nerf, although someone who wants to get away, will get away.

It’s harder for condi rangers, since they don’t use GS that much. The leap on ranger’s GS is the longest in the game(1100).

If you must be a condi ranger, you might want to think about replacing axe with sword and practicing the sword leaps. Detarget anything, hit your “turn-around” key(default ‘V’ I think), hit sword2, turn-around again, hit sword2 again. It takes a lot of practice, but is a decent gap-closer…ikittenward as all heck.

*note: I know the sword has rooting issues…just my two cents

Well…yes.

^

You do realize that the final damage number is the total damage of the skill added up, and not a “tick” number right?

I mean, the damage per tick isn’t increasing every time, it’s just adding up the damage from the previous ticks.

Ahh, my bad on the initiative cost. I didn’t realize it was a chain skill.

I gave up long ago on getting good heals off of siphon. Sigils of Blood and Omnomberry Ghost FTW!

Drakkon

Change, in and of itself, isn’t necessarily a good thing. Real change comes from a real need, it’s reactionary driven. Things that have been proven to work right should only be added to or built upon. Basically, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I understand why the did a lot of the things they did, they were addressing key issues. The problem is their solutions don’t always match the problem.

For instance, the grand ole “LF Healer” phrase was the bane of putting together dungeon groups since the dawn of time. ANet’s solution? Get rid of healers…in fact, just throw out the whole trinity. Despite the fact that in GW1, almost any class could be a decent healer with the 2ndary class system. It was arguably the best system out there for that. But some players were just too lazy and impatient to either wait for a healer, or have the dungeon take longer. And ANet rewards those players…

Old Tyria was a world rife with magic and sorcery, it was something that was woven into the very fabric of the world. It made sense. ANet wanted something “cool” to bring to the table with GW2, something with mass appeal. So what do they do? Lasers and bazookas! Oh that doesn’t jive well with magic? Easy fix, just downplay magic’s importance so much that it won’t really matter anymore. The gods scrammed, machines rule, and the dragons are busy devouring whatever is left of magic on Tyria. Who cares if it worked fine as it was, we have techpunk(trademarked) now!

Another example, the story. The GW1 story was arguably one of its best features, hardly anyone didn’t like it. It was a beautiful narrative. It also happened to be human dominated—not the devs fault now, that’s just how it started. So they decide they want multiple playable races in GW2 and what do they do? They trash it. They could have very easily kept the human factor in tact as it was, building new traditions alongside the old ones. Instead, they neuter all the various human kingdoms into one mono-euro culture, parcel out their homelands for the new kids on the block, and relegate them to the “sidelines” of modern culture. Overkill?

If they really cared about the original lore, why did they trash so much of it? And if they don’t care, why is it unfair for anyone to call them out on it?

To be fair, I don’t think anyone wanted the exact same combat mechanics as GW1 for this game. The mobility and fluidity of GW2 are awesome. But I would say that most expected that mobility to be part of the evolution of GW1 combat, and not a replacement of it.

Is there a reason we can’t have this mobility along with 2ndary classes? No.
Is there a reason we can’t have this mobility along with skill choice freedom? No.
Is there a reason we can’t have this mobility along with dedicated healers? No.
Is there a reason we can’t have this mobility along with energy management? No.

Why does everyone assume that the fluid combat of GW2 is incompatible with GW1 combat mechanics?

Vayne.8563:

If nothing else grind for Luxon/Kurzick points, Lightbringer, the lucky title track and the wisdom title track (all of which granted in game benefits) were long, hard roads.

The Lux/Kurz & Lightbringer skill tracks were for a measly 1 skill per class. One.

And the lucky/wisdom tracks were convenience mechanics at best. All they did was spare you a few plat.

Long, hard road? Please.

Well…ANet considers W3 to be PvE. It’s actually more cutthroat than sPvP.

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

Larcenous Strike: This skill now steals only 1 boon.

need i QQ more…no more support builds to pressure mobs/enemies in spvp..

thief cannot take on a guardian with all the buffs now…

revert

or post other suggestions

gg, you killed it… it was underpowered as it was, not overpowered.

How so? It costs a measly 2 initiative points? Granted Guardians can shrug it off better now, but most classes don’t have boons galore like they do.

There are @30 stun breaks in this game(~3-4 per class)

There are @40 ways to get stabo(~2-5 per class)

Also,
There are over 160 control effects in the game(~3-6 per class at any one time)

The CD’s on the control effects are usually much shorter than the stun breaks/stabo, which means CC’s, especially when focusing a single target, can be applied many times faster than they can be removed.

The only real way to mitigate this is dodging(blindness too I suppose).

So if your reaction time is not fast, and/or if your computer is not fast…good luck.

TheDaiBish.9735:

As well as this, the human brain can only process so many calculations per second. In a slower game such as GW and WoW, you have the time to think out your next move. Since GW2 is more based on twitch and reaction, is generally faster paced, and effects (such as Stuns) are generally shorter, you can’t have the same amount required thought processes per second.

This is probably the single most subtle change between GW1 & 2. Before, it was a tactics game based off of build effectiveness and party synergy. Now it’s an action game based on reaction time and some party synergy.

They are almost two different genres.

laharl.8435:

Ethics.4519:

Different people find different things fun.

Let them do what they want to do. It just boils down to you being jealous of the achievement points, because if you didn’t care…. well then you wouldn’t care.

^This right here.

I have 7k points and personally could care less about them. Half the time I don’t even do my dailies anymore. But I’m not going to say someone who has 12k+ has no life or put them down. We’re all playing this game to have fun. Some people like dungeons, some like wvw, some like world events or rp’ing or whatever. I assume the people with tons of achievement points are having fun otherwise they wouldn’t have so many.

That would be true if it didn’t affect my gameplay at all. Like getting screamed at in map chat for messing up Teq. Or having Twilight Assault take twice as long because someone wants some random achievement. Or draining supply camps/towers/keeps to build a hundred pointless rams. Or being bumped to overflow because they are zerging Scarlet’s minions. Or my personal favorite, watching server-mates suicide off a cliff for the daily rez, only to get happily ganked by a havoc squad.

It’s not so much that I don’t want them to have fun, I do. But if the game is devolving into a series of endless, arbitrary, and meaningless tasks that suck up the game-time of half the population, I’d like to know about it before hand. When did the game turn this direction anyway, Christmas time?

Vayne.8563:

It’s interesting..because my understanding of energy management when it was first introduced in MMOs was for developers to slow down the game, so their servers could keep up with all the calculations. It DID add more depth to the game as an affect effect, but the main reason it was used was to slow down skill usage, so that there would be less lag.

Today servers can handle more, so it’s not as necessary.

Have you even stepped foot in W3?

It should be used in bottlenecks or capture points, otherwise it’s too easy to avoid and the CD is longish. However, the pulsing effect of the poison/weakness is extremely useful when combined with other CC’s, it’s very hard to fully cleanse. I run it with a soft CC/boon stripper build and it works pretty well.

Vayne.8563:

I have over 12,000 myself.

You need to put this as your signature.

Your posts make so much more sense now.

Vayne.8563:

Anyone who can begin to compare something like LA with something like Divinity’s Reach in Guild Wars 2 is being completely disingenuous.

Look everyone, it’s a painting you can look at but can’t enter.

So you’re holding GW1 culprit of running a 7 years older engine? Really?[/quote]

It has nothing to do with the engine. Nothing at all.

It has to do with a city being a city. We know a city can be created in Guild Wars 1, because they did it with Kaineng Center. It was a design decision, not an engine problem.[/quote]

Vayne, come on, you couldn’t go into doors and rooms in KC or Kamadan either. You’re talking about the exporable zones of KC, which isn’t the same thing. Those act like any other instanced zone in the game, not the “city” spaces.

Rutee.1058:

Yes, they are a tool to make the Charr a playable species. Welcome to writing. Similarly, their being more savage prior is an out to feel alright about killing them, and to not have to put more effort into explaining why they do what they do. These kinds of things happen in writing, even good writing.

They also happen in bad writing, you’re point? Citing writing methods does little to add to the convo when discussing effective plausibility of overarching narrative continuity.

Rutee.1058:

Your point is poorly illustrated – this isn’t academia, and if you were trying to act as though it were, you sorely lack in references. Wiki is perfectly acceptable for day to day life.

Again, a random reference to academia does not make for a call for scholarly discussion. Learn to banter? /shrug

Rutee.1058:

They connected the games through… the wiki? Not EotN, the actual expansion?

Uhh…both? Did I ever say it was the only way?

Rutee.1058:

You’re confusing the presence of humor with the absence of seriousness. Lord of the Rings has its fair share of humor, even before Peter Jackson got a hold of it. Few would dispute that it is a serious setting. If you’d like to say that there’s mood whiplash in going from Lord Faren’s amazitude to, well, almost anything else in the plot, I won’t argue with you (Or, for a more stark example, Skrittsburgh. You fend off apocalyptic demons, slavers, and deranged scientists to find… skrittsburgh). But to say that it isn’t serious because there’s comic relief? No.

Nah, if anything I’m confusing the presence of an interesting debate with the absence of objectivity. If you want me to cite examples of sillyness, you’re going to need to give me awhile to acquire the exact information…you seem to be adamant about proper evidence and all. You still didn’t answer my question though: do you really think this game has a more serious tone than GW1?

Rutee.1058:

Also, Tyria is not literally drenched in cotton candied fluff. Although if it were, nobody would ever go hungry again, because there would be cotton candy everywhere. Literally: Does not mean what you apparently think it means.

Aww, sweet. A sarcastic and a literalist. Where was this earlier? /sadface

Rutee.1058:

If by ‘notable exception’ you mean ‘the bulk of the personal stories, most renown hearts, and numerous events and meta-events, as well as the Living Story, the dungeon plots, and the like’ then yes. Even Metrica Province has friggin’ Chernobyl in it. The only thing I can recall with a particularly childish plot offhand was the Super Adventure Box – and fake retro isn’t generally for kids.

Hmm, I’m not sure we are playing the same game. The personal story is fairly decent; the renown hearts, while being a great gameplay mechanic, are mostly lighthearted and trivial; the DE’s are barely better; and the LS…are you kidding? I think I stopped trying with those when the Flame & Frost bosses did a Ginyu Force pose-off before the engagement.

You’re right on one point though, humans would lose bad in an attempt to retake Ascalon. It’s just not feasible given the Charr entrenchment and how far the human supply lines would have to be for that. The Asura and Sylvari wouldn’t help, that’s for sure. And the Norn probably don’t give a darn. It’s not a viable option for this game.

Vayne.8563:

I have so many dyes on my alts…

Then you’re very, very lucky.

Frosch.7809:

Primary source on the Celts being archaeological findings. And “biased” is an understatement when describing the man who was responsible for the death of one third of Gaul’s population. But that’s just on a sidenote.

Long live Vercingetorix!

Rutee.1058:

Comentarii de Bello Gallico Primary source on the Gauls, actually, if a biased one. It’s kind of written by a guy who was directly dealing with the Gauls.

Dude, learn to read lol. My example was about a guy writing a book about Caesar’s book, not about Caesar himself.

Rutee.1058:

Even if your claim had been limited to that, it’d still be INCREDIBLY dishonest to not immediately concede that what I said was true, given that you knew for a fact it was accurate. But there’s no reason to believe that your claim was limited to that. You were using the stance for academia to dismiss wikis. I’ll grant you didn’t directly state ’it’s a wiki, and therefore invalid’, but you were leaning on that heavily to make your point. You were, after all, heavily implying it was false.

I was implying it was false because not only is it commonly known throughout the player community that a lot of GW lore was written into the wiki post-Nightfall, but it has even been said so by ANet plenty of times. It’s how they connected the two games for crying out loud. I had no idea this was an issue.

Rutee.1058:

And again, why should wikipedia be given special concern? The empirical evidence indicates it’s as accurate as Britannica. This is certainly acceptable for day to day discussions. And as to being a poser, it’s trying to ape an academic stance with no apparent understanding for the utility or origin of that stance. To be fair, there /are/ professors who just knee jerk at nominally public editting.

Are you cereal? Did my random choice of an example enrage professors around the country lol. Good grief, I’m sorry if using an anecdotal nod to academia to highlight my point irked you. I shall try to steer clear of scholarly references in the future.

Rutee.1058:

Within GW1, prior to EotN, the Charr appear to just be a kitty version of standard orcs – unjustified, evil, and only accepted because it’s genre standard. Fair enough, and nobody has to put a higher level of effort into showing everyone as a valid foe. Adding more depth to that, in a work trying to be ‘serious’ instead of aiming to the typically low standard of ‘for kids’, is pretty much always going to be an improvement.

Now this one I’m dumbfounded on. I’ll grant you that the GW1 Charr were unfortunately simplistic and not fleshed out, but you have got to be joking to say GW2 is more ‘serious’ while GW1 was ‘for kids.’ This Tyria is literally drenched in cotton-candied, kiddy-fun-time fluff. I can’t walk ten feet without either an Asuran wisecrack, a fun box party, or some immersion-killing skin in my face. There are notable exceptions of course, but the vast majority of the game is rated Disney. Do you really not see that? I’m being sincere here, I don’t know anyone else that thinks that.

The writers were the obvious choice…because they physically wrote it. Want me to pin it on someone else? Sure, why not. I have no idea who that is though. Maybe I should just say “staff” and call it good. My argument lies in the change, not who changed it. The writers were just an obvious target. Not sure why you focused on this particular thing, are you a writer by trade? If so, I’m sorry if I offended you by association. :/

How am I doing a bad job at establishing my claim? o.0

A secondary source, in and of itself, isn’t dirt. I could reference some dude who wrote a book about Caesar’s Commentarii de Bello Gallico, and come up with some stellar insights on the Gauls through this dude’s eyes. Doesn’t make it dirt, just secondary.

I never said you shouldn’t listen to wiki, only that you should take it with a grain of salt. Just because I used its weaknesses as a point in my argument doesn’t mean I think it’s dirt, sheesh. And I never said “It’s a wiki, therefore invalid” even though you put it in quotes to refer to me. Come to think of it, you’re putting a lot of words in my mouth lol. A poser? How so?

If you just want to have a mudslinging match we can start another topic somewhere and have at it, I’ve got spare time. In the mean time, I’m still interested in what you meant by Fleshing out a cartoonishly evil group will almost always make for a better heir for something serious.

Also, wiki’s are most aptly public secondary sources. A secondary source alone, while not the best choice, isn’t invalid. It’s just not a strong source.

Yes…my criticisms are aimed at the story beginning with EotN. Almost all of the staff involved with that were still here when GW2 launced. That’s where “you’re late to the party” comes in. Those old posts about that have been driven into the dirt.

No, I have no idea why the writers left. Why does that matter again?

Not inviolate canon, inviolate spirit. Preserving the facts of a thing is different than preserving the essence of a thing. GW2 preserved the facts well enough, but they threw away GW1’s essence and built an entirely new one. I can’t have a debate about this if you can’t understand this premise.

Your last line…you need to explain. It’s over my head.

^

One thing that GW1 has over 2 is a simple game mechanic: the mission replayability. I know some people thought it stupid that the content was gated through the storyline. That’s another discussion. But what it did do was reinforce that story to you many times through playing it on alts, with friends, and for daily quests from GToB. I thought is was very ingenious the way they encouraged visiting all areas of the known map through that system.

Konig

Meh, their magic-devouring ability was the point. They do server another huge purpose…aka main antagonist. Or at least they were before all this LS stuff now, I’m not sure anymore.

You’re missing one big thing here though. The ED’s allowed the Charr, Asura, and Scarlet to go techno not because they literally couldn’t go another route, but because the writers already wanted to go that way. They could have used dozens of plot devices to further that aim, they chose this ability of the ED’s as one big one. It’s not the only one, but it’s a main one.

They had decided all this a long, long time ago I’m sure. They had to. Could the Asura and Charr have simply gone this route on their own without the ED’s? Sure, why not. But it makes it much more plausible and relevant to have them in. Especially with the gods gone at the same time they start stirring(3 years out of thousands is pretty close in my book). Add the 250 years to the mix, it all makes sense. I’m sure there are other factors I don’t even know about.

But I still think that the magic-devouring aspect of the ED’s was created by the writers to further their overall style and tone for the game, and not just some cool ability our player characters have to deal with. Or whatever. It makes sense if you look at the big picture, and not try to understand it from just a local level.

NumenorLord.6539:

Plot: The Drumand Priory discovers that the only way to end with the King Adelbern’s curse is to have a human king reclaim Ascalon. A human of the Adelbern’s bloodline starts a campaign to claim the throne of Ascalon and give the suffering ghosts the final rest.

Game changes: The whole Ascalonian map becomes an open pvp world for lvl 80 players as long as the event goes on. Norn, Asura and Sylvari can join 1 of 3 options: Support humans, support Charr or stay neutral (no pvp).

Open world events would change to match the event, players supporting human side won’t be abble to interact with Charr NPC’s (this includes selling, quests, events, etc.)

Outcome: The final event would be the siege of the Black Citadel. The amount of siege weapons and npc allies fighting for each side would be determined by the number of pvp kills and the number of completed events of each side. The curse won’t end if the humans win, it was all a trick okitteng Adelbern to grow his ghostly army and avenge the original fall of Ascalon.

Lol.

Will never happen, but kudos to your imagination. GW2 humans would lose that fight btw, although Adelbern might like that…

Rutee.1058:

Is this actually even a retcon? The GW1 wiki lists the formation of the Legions as spoilers for GW1.

Odd then, that a simple Google search “guild wars charr legions” comes up with literally nothing between 2003 and 2007, and a whole lot after that. There’s a reason professor’s don’t let you quote wiki ya know, they are rife with editing.

Rutee.1058:

Because you have very little evidence to think the original writers (Who apparently remain in force) wouldn’t have retconned it had they remained, and if you have any evidence whatsoever that they left in disgust over changes, you haven’t presented it.

Eh, a single dude wrote all of Proph. Him and a handful of others wrote Factions. None of which are still there. The big staff turnovers came with Nightfall and EotN, at which point GW2 was a foregone conclusion.

I never said the old writer’s don’t like the new content, I haven’t a clue. Maybe they adore it. At any rate, a public game-world like this doesn’t really belong strictly to the creator anymore anyway. It belongs both to the contextual and artistic style with which it was written, as well as to the thousands of fans who fell in love with it.

Rutee.1058:

That’s not actually true unless you conflate artistic integrity with maintaining an entirely inviolate canon.

You’re late to the party, I’ve already bantered back and forth on this with others here ad nauseum, I doubt they want to see a redux. The art isn’t inviolate, however, I do believe it is sacred. Those aren’t the same things. Every addition to an established work of art should be critically judged, no matter what it is.

My angle is simple: the further one strays from the spirit of its predecessor, the less credibility it’s due as an acceptable heir.