Guild Wars 2

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, if the class changes make those classes less desirable to play, that alone increases the diversity that people will have for raid comps.

Suuure. Making less classes desirable for raids will increase the diversity somehow.

When no one is exceptional, everyone is average. When everyone is average, there isn’t a reason to exclude people. That might be hard for someone that doesn’t understand what average is or that doesn’t understand that you don’t need optimal to succeed in raids, but nonetheless, it works. Whether you believe it or not is not a prerequisite to it being true.

Are we there yet? Probably not, but these changes are putting things in that direction. You can deny it if you like or believe it; neither is relevant. What matters is that it’s happening because Anet wants it to. You’re choice is to adapt or be miserable.

Cristalyan.5728:

mtpelion.4562

There was a discussion a few months back in which Chris Cleary and John Smith posted and said that more Mystic Coins are created than are used. The reason for the price increase is what is known as a “bubble” (i.e. consumer perception of value is no longer related to actual supply or demand and is growing without regard for either). Once it reaches a popping point, Mystic Coin prices will cave quickly.

This are words. Even coming from a dev, without any evidence to support them, we have here hollow words. They said. Nothing about they proved.

You know what is awesome about this … it’s correct and you know what else? It doesn’t matter. Anet can say white … or they can say black, but in the end they make decisions based on what THEY say it is, whether it’s true or not. Whether you believe them or not is not a prerequisite for Anet said something or doing something based on what they believe, however they arrived to their conclusion.

Personally, I think the complaints about the MC price is ridiculous. It’s market driven. It’s so hypocritical for people to complain about one mat that bothers them, but they probably have no problem with many of the other mats they need that they can buy for a low price … No one is fooled.

I’m actually hoping they don’t touch them. They are good like they are and there are other things that need changes more than these two weapons do.

I beg to differ on that point. Engis have access to many ways to remove conditions; terrible isn’t really a fair description.

The Alchemy line gives lots of condition mitigation, as well as Elixer skills and condition reducers from other sources.

That makes no sense to you that someone camps some nodes for T1 mats, but bots farming green wood and copper … that makes sense to you? OK then. I mean, I guess these bots are trying to make small amounts of gold or something? MAP Ips can stick around for a long time and those non-rich nodes reset every hour … there are more mats there for someone who wants to farm a node than you let on.

But please continue with telling us how bots are farming single nodes for mats that give 1s each but crafters wouldn’t.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Obtena.7952:

You’re assuming they are doing it to sell the mats … there are people out there that will farm their own mats for crafting and those kind of people WOULD camp green and copper nodes.

And before you pursue this, you better be careful … you can find yourself in lots of trouble if you report someone who isn’t doing anything wrong.

You’re assuming they are doing it to sell the mats … there are people out there that will farm their own mats for crafting and those kind of people WOULD camp green and copper node

I sincerely doubt this.

That they would farm green wood and copper, yes. That they would have a char dedicated to log in at one spot for one lumber or copper node to get a measly 3 – 4 mats that’s probably not even be there the next time they log in is grossly inefficient and a waste of time. Parking a char at a spot for the off chance they’ll get 3 mats a day will take them years to get enough for crafting.

And before you pursue this, you better be careful … you can find yourself in lots of trouble if you report someone who isn’t doing anything wrong.

Wrong. They do punish for obvious malicious reporting but honest mistakes are not punished.

You sincerely doubt there are people that farm their own mats … well I can’t argue with that nonsense. I mean, what is funny here is that you have assumed lots of things that might not be true themselves. Well, whatever, believe what you will. I mean, the idea that botters are farming green wood is about as stupid as the idea that a single person would camp 4 characters at the same node to get mats for crafting so .. I guess we are both talking nonsense.

Wow, that’s just weird. I mean … doesn’t that remind you of a fetus in a jar for pathology? I don’t regret starting the Mace if that’s the kind of skins we are getting.

Absurdo.8309:

Obtena.7952:

Absurdo.8309:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Well, I guess the guy complaining about how hard it is to complete raids with the new changes is wrong then. If it’s not harder to complete raids, then there isn’t really a problem here. I’m glad we can agree that this thread is really unnecessary complaining.

I mean, if after all this, your response is “nothing changed” then my response is “then nothing to complain about”. Anet spent their time, put in some changes they wanted and if the result is zero sum effect on raids, then all this complaining is for nothing …

Now, I’m pretty sure you’re going to come back and change up your tune a little bit because certainly, anyone can see that this does affect the way people think about how they do raids and make the comps … YES? So perhaps glib answers aren’t so good if you are being honest about including yourself in a discussion?

Furthermore, as I’ve already illustrated, Inclusivity is not restricted by optimal comps because raids can be completed with non-optimal comps. So, no, that association is nonsense.

The point people have been making for 9 pages now is this:

Before changes: More classes are optimal, more comps (5-5, 4-4-2, 5-4-2, 7-2-1) are used without any big significant differences.

After changes: Less classes are optimal and if you use anything else aside from the 5-5 comp you see a significant change in performance.

Now whether you care about optimal or not is entirely your opnion and if you wanna believe it’s unnecessary complaining then so be it. But there’s no need to play ignorant. You know what changed and there’s no need to dismiss that.

I never argued what is optimal so don’t bother making that a point to argue with me.

You can all continue to argue that these changes screw with optimal builds/compositions, but that really ignores the fundamental concept that the raids aren’t designed and balanced around those optimal builds/compositions in the first place and therefore, that argument is entirely irrelevant.

I mean, the whole statement that if you don’t choose the optimal composition, your performance degrades goes without saying. The only real problem that anyone should be concerned about is when the number of compositions that are solutions to raids becomes dangerously low. That actually doesn’t happen in raids … not yet anyways.

The real problem you see is that players artificially lower the number of solution compositions, not Anet. This is a player perception issue and people are using class changes as scapegoats for their own perception of what works and not work.

Is there room to meet in the middle here?

Currently, all bosses are beatable with less than 10 players. Under your view, then, it would be acceptable for a class to have 50% effectiveness than another because the boss would still be beatable if you brought that sub-optimal class as the tenth player.

It seems wrong to just ignore inter-class balance just because the bosses are still beatable.

There seems to be 2 low-hanging fruit already: necro and engie.

Necro dps is low compared to other dps classes. I would recommend reverting the lich form nerf.

Engie dps is complicated. That said, groups brought them before the slick shoes nerf because of its excellent cc. I would recommend reverting the slick shoes nerf, at least for pve.

There’s other problems with balance, but I believe these are easy fixes that would make these classes more desirable, even if they’re not optimal.

I’m not saying there aren’t opportunities for individual class improvements that could make them more raid-desirable. In fact, it might not be obvious, but I think that’s why these kinds of class changes are made; even though they are nerfs, they give Anet the ability to maneuver with changes to the class later.

I’m sure this isn’t the proper thread to discuss those things. Those kind of useful suggestions just lost in the “OMG Anet ruined the game” noise this thread started out as.

I’m not sure I follow this logic: make a class less desirable now, so it’s more desirable in the future? If that’s the goal, then they would couple those changes. As it stands, it just makes certain classes less desirable for an undefined period of time.

I agree the OP was hyperbolic, but I don’t think even the OP seriously argued that position. Just click-bait to start the thread.

I don’t think the motivation for the nerfs are about balancing desire to play a class, at least not directly. So yeah, that logic probably doesn’t make sense in that perspective; I doubt that Anet really cares what classes get played more than others. Frankly, if the class changes make those classes less desirable to play, that alone increases the diversity that people will have for raid comps.

Absurdo.8309:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Well, I guess the guy complaining about how hard it is to complete raids with the new changes is wrong then. If it’s not harder to complete raids, then there isn’t really a problem here. I’m glad we can agree that this thread is really unnecessary complaining.

I mean, if after all this, your response is “nothing changed” then my response is “then nothing to complain about”. Anet spent their time, put in some changes they wanted and if the result is zero sum effect on raids, then all this complaining is for nothing …

Now, I’m pretty sure you’re going to come back and change up your tune a little bit because certainly, anyone can see that this does affect the way people think about how they do raids and make the comps … YES? So perhaps glib answers aren’t so good if you are being honest about including yourself in a discussion?

Furthermore, as I’ve already illustrated, Inclusivity is not restricted by optimal comps because raids can be completed with non-optimal comps. So, no, that association is nonsense.

The point people have been making for 9 pages now is this:

Before changes: More classes are optimal, more comps (5-5, 4-4-2, 5-4-2, 7-2-1) are used without any big significant differences.

After changes: Less classes are optimal and if you use anything else aside from the 5-5 comp you see a significant change in performance.

Now whether you care about optimal or not is entirely your opnion and if you wanna believe it’s unnecessary complaining then so be it. But there’s no need to play ignorant. You know what changed and there’s no need to dismiss that.

I never argued what is optimal so don’t bother making that a point to argue with me.

You can all continue to argue that these changes screw with optimal builds/compositions, but that really ignores the fundamental concept that the raids aren’t designed and balanced around those optimal builds/compositions in the first place and therefore, that argument is entirely irrelevant.

I mean, the whole statement that if you don’t choose the optimal composition, your performance degrades goes without saying. The only real problem that anyone should be concerned about is when the number of compositions that are solutions to raids becomes dangerously low. That actually doesn’t happen in raids … not yet anyways.

The real problem you see is that players artificially lower the number of solution compositions, not Anet. This is a player perception issue and people are using class changes as scapegoats for their own perception of what works and not work.

Is there room to meet in the middle here?

Currently, all bosses are beatable with less than 10 players. Under your view, then, it would be acceptable for a class to have 50% effectiveness than another because the boss would still be beatable if you brought that sub-optimal class as the tenth player.

It seems wrong to just ignore inter-class balance just because the bosses are still beatable.

There seems to be 2 low-hanging fruit already: necro and engie.

Necro dps is low compared to other dps classes. I would recommend reverting the lich form nerf.

Engie dps is complicated. That said, groups brought them before the slick shoes nerf because of its excellent cc. I would recommend reverting the slick shoes nerf, at least for pve.

There’s other problems with balance, but I believe these are easy fixes that would make these classes more desirable, even if they’re not optimal.

I’m not saying there aren’t opportunities for individual class improvements that could make them more raid-desirable. In fact, it might not be obvious, but I think that’s why these kinds of class changes are made; even though they are nerfs, they give Anet the ability to maneuver with changes to the class later.

I’m sure this isn’t the proper thread to discuss those things. Those kind of useful suggestions just lost in the “OMG Anet ruined the game” noise this thread started out as.

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

I never argued what is optimal so don’t bother making that a point to argue with me.

All I’m saying is there’s no need to play ignorant and say nothing changed. Things changed, there were consequences. Some people care about these consequences which is why they made this topic. Whether you feel they’re ridiculous or not is another matter entirely which I’m not going to discuss with you.

Well, that wasn’t my claim … it was the other guy so /shrug

shion.2084:

You know with trait abilities that proc on hit you can make use of those multi little hits. From a PvP perspective….

This is exactly what makes FT so good … not only do you get a reliable procing with a low crit rate, you also get it for your traits too. My build has 4 traits directly related to on-crit effects as well as 2 sigils.

Retal is definitely bad to encounter on FT auto but I don’t think it’s a reason for people to recommend a lower hit frequency. It’s all part of the challenge of using an FT.

I do find the burning at the end of the auto strange and annoying, but if you really want more burning, you can equip yourself to get it. You can also count on other people to bring burning as well, so I don’t see the need for any rework of the weapon to address the burning application from it.

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Well, I guess the guy complaining about how hard it is to complete raids with the new changes is wrong then. If it’s not harder to complete raids, then there isn’t really a problem here. I’m glad we can agree that this thread is really unnecessary complaining.

I mean, if after all this, your response is “nothing changed” then my response is “then nothing to complain about”. Anet spent their time, put in some changes they wanted and if the result is zero sum effect on raids, then all this complaining is for nothing …

Now, I’m pretty sure you’re going to come back and change up your tune a little bit because certainly, anyone can see that this does affect the way people think about how they do raids and make the comps … YES? So perhaps glib answers aren’t so good if you are being honest about including yourself in a discussion?

Furthermore, as I’ve already illustrated, Inclusivity is not restricted by optimal comps because raids can be completed with non-optimal comps. So, no, that association is nonsense.

The point people have been making for 9 pages now is this:

Before changes: More classes are optimal, more comps (5-5, 4-4-2, 5-4-2, 7-2-1) are used without any big significant differences.

After changes: Less classes are optimal and if you use anything else aside from the 5-5 comp you see a significant change in performance.

Now whether you care about optimal or not is entirely your opnion and if you wanna believe it’s unnecessary complaining then so be it. But there’s no need to play ignorant. You know what changed and there’s no need to dismiss that.

I never argued what is optimal so don’t bother making that a point to argue with me.

You can all continue to argue that these changes screw with optimal builds/compositions, but that really ignores the fundamental concept that the raids aren’t designed and balanced around those optimal builds/compositions in the first place and therefore, that argument is entirely irrelevant.

I mean, the whole statement that if you don’t choose the optimal composition, your performance degrades goes without saying. The only real problem that anyone should be concerned about is when the number of compositions that are solutions to raids becomes dangerously low. That actually doesn’t happen in raids … not yet anyways.

The real problem you see is that players artificially lower the number of solution compositions, not Anet. This is a player perception issue and people are using class changes as scapegoats for their own perception of what works and not work.

mauried.5608:

Its a pretty poor way of selling gold , given the TP takes 15% of the sale price.

Not if you can undercut Anet and stick the 15% to the buyer … I mean, think about how the transaction works … the buyer would have to post the item, so if the seller doesn’t see the item for the price they told the buyer to list it, they don’t have to buy the item to transfer the gold.

And I’m also pretty sure the Goldseller won’t buy the item until they get their money so … Besides, there are triggers I’m sure. I mean, what item seller would list such items and see them sold so fast for the ridiculous prices they are up for? I think if Anet has the resources, finding these people is really easy.

You’re assuming they are doing it to sell the mats … there are people out there that will farm their own mats for crafting and those kind of people WOULD camp green and copper nodes.

And before you pursue this, you better be careful … you can find yourself in lots of trouble if you report someone who isn’t doing anything wrong.

Well, I guess the guy complaining about how hard it is to complete raids with the new changes is wrong then. If it’s not harder to complete raids, then there isn’t really a problem here. I’m glad we can agree that this thread is really unnecessary complaining.

I mean, if after all this, your response is “nothing changed” then my response is “then nothing to complain about”. Anet spent their time, put in some changes they wanted and if the result is zero sum effect on raids, then all this complaining is for nothing …

Now, I’m pretty sure you’re going to come back and change up your tune a little bit because certainly, anyone can see that this does affect the way people think about how they do raids and make the comps … YES? So perhaps glib answers aren’t so good if you are being honest about including yourself in a discussion?

Furthermore, as I’ve already illustrated, Inclusivity is not restricted by optimal comps because raids can be completed with non-optimal comps. So, no, that association is nonsense.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Obtena.7952:

^^ Sounds to me like anyone that focuses on the reward vs. the play wouldn’t really have a much of a care in how Daily rewards work in the first place. If rewards is what you are about … Daily is a pretty strange and pathetic place to seek them.

There are more rewards available in general play from before than there is now because before, we didn’t have LS and HoT and Raids, and … well it should be obvious why. The game evolves with endgame content … and the balance of rewards towards that. That’s not a pity that the game evolved that way, it’s a natural evolution. If you seek the balance of rewards from general play, then I’m afraid the MMO genre isn’t for you to begin with.

Yep, that’s how GW2 has changed. Or did you forgot that GW2 was supposed to appeal to both MMO lovers and haters? And what’s with everyone attributing things to me I did not say. The “balance of rewards from general play?” Not even close when all I’m doing is talking about one reward track that used to be more accessible and is now less.

OK so maybe you’re just confusing everyone with the n=1 case because certainly what you point out it’s more than just how MMOs evolve. it’s not a consequence of some bad design or judgement on Anet’s part

I do know this much: I still don’t see how someone with such a focus on rewards makes so much of a stink about dailies.

^^ Sounds to me like anyone that focuses on the reward vs. the play wouldn’t really have a much of a care in how Daily rewards work in the first place. If rewards is what you are about … Daily is a pretty strange and pathetic place to seek them.

There are more rewards available in general play from before than there is now because before, we didn’t have LS and HoT and Raids, and … well it should be obvious why. The game evolves with endgame content … and the balance of rewards towards that. That’s not a pity that the game evolved that way, it’s a natural evolution. If you seek the balance of rewards from general play, then I’m afraid the MMO genre isn’t for you to begin with.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Obtena.7952:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Obtena.7952:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Obtena.7952:

FrizzFreston.5290:

ArenaNet wants a volume of opinions (uninformed or not), since they specifically have this forum and community managers for reddit, facebook, etc., scouting for those opinions. However, that doesn’t mean anyone who post here is making a decision. It’s suggestions and requests, which may or may not be fulfilled AT ArenaNet’s discretion. Even a poll would be entirely controlled by ArenaNet. The options on the poll would be chosen carefully so that even the most uninformed person can make a sensible contribution to the decision.

Let’s be careful here … being open to opinions is WAY different than openly asking players how the game should be designed with polls and such. Anet does one but not the other.

So when I see a thread on a poll of opinions to change game design, that just makes no sense to me. Anet already know there is a wide range of opinion on the matter … what would you think they would learn from doing that? Frankly, I think it’s a big waste of resources for them to go around polling players on this change and that change.

They’ve been doing polls for changes to WvW for some time now so obviously they don’t think it’s a waste of resources.

Google WvW polls.

Um, that kind of proves what I’m saying … if they want players to participate, they WILL do so. They didn’t here, for whatever reason.

Um, there has to be a before point in time before they poll on this or that change. If they thought polling was a waste of resources they wouldn’t be doing it multiple times on various subjects.

Before the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, six …… poll on suggested change X. They didn’t here, for whatever reason.

And then they did.

Anet polls some stuff, some other stuff they don’t. It’s silly for them to poll “hey do you want this or that” after they have implemented one or the other. I mean, that’s a waste of their time. It’s not hard to see that.

For example … it would be stupid of them to poll if they should name Necro elite spec “Reaper” or something else … Why? It’s already reaper, and it’s not changing. Work went into making that the name. This is the same thing. They implemented daily achievement caps. it would be stupid for them at this point to say “Hey daily achievement cap or not guys?”

Realistically, what would they poll players on at this point? They already know there is a range of feelings that players would have on this. It’s redundant.

it would be stupid for them at this point to say “Hey daily achievement cap or not guys?”

Well, that’s just your opinion, man

Realistically, what would they poll players on at this point? They already know there is a range of feelings that players would have on this. It’s redundant.

Are you saying that with the other polls that they didn’t know that there was a range of feelings on those subjects?

Maybe, just maybe, it’s the range of feelings that calls for a poll. I mean, are you going to poll when you know ahead of time that there’s a consensus? Maybe, just maybe, a poll finds out what exactly the range of feelings are and the percents of each. You know, to find out what the majority wants.

Food for thought, no?

I think it depends on what the poll is asking … the question posed by this thread is rather silly. It suggests that Anet will waste resources putting something in, just to take it out based on a poll … because somehow, they didn’t take into account people would not like a daily achievement cap? Like it completely didn’t cross their mind it wouldn’t be a popular thing to do? That’s just nonsense. If Anet made decisions on how people felt, they would never be able to do anything, because there is always unhappy people. People suggesting polls are a reasonable method to rally against changes Anet make to the aren’t being very realistic or clever here.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Obtena.7952:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Obtena.7952:

FrizzFreston.5290:

ArenaNet wants a volume of opinions (uninformed or not), since they specifically have this forum and community managers for reddit, facebook, etc., scouting for those opinions. However, that doesn’t mean anyone who post here is making a decision. It’s suggestions and requests, which may or may not be fulfilled AT ArenaNet’s discretion. Even a poll would be entirely controlled by ArenaNet. The options on the poll would be chosen carefully so that even the most uninformed person can make a sensible contribution to the decision.

Let’s be careful here … being open to opinions is WAY different than openly asking players how the game should be designed with polls and such. Anet does one but not the other.

So when I see a thread on a poll of opinions to change game design, that just makes no sense to me. Anet already know there is a wide range of opinion on the matter … what would you think they would learn from doing that? Frankly, I think it’s a big waste of resources for them to go around polling players on this change and that change.

They’ve been doing polls for changes to WvW for some time now so obviously they don’t think it’s a waste of resources.

Google WvW polls.

Um, that kind of proves what I’m saying … if they want players to participate, they WILL do so. They didn’t here, for whatever reason.

Um, there has to be a before point in time before they poll on this or that change. If they thought polling was a waste of resources they wouldn’t be doing it multiple times on various subjects.

Before the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, six …… poll on suggested change X. They didn’t here, for whatever reason.

And then they did.

Anet polls some stuff, some other stuff they don’t. It’s silly for them to poll “hey do you want this or that” after they have implemented one or the other. I mean, that’s a waste of their time. It’s not hard to see that.

For example … it would be stupid of them to poll if they should name Necro elite spec “Reaper” or something else … Why? It’s already reaper, and it’s not changing. Work went into making that the name. This is the same thing. They implemented daily achievement caps. it would be stupid for them at this point to say “Hey daily achievement cap or not guys?”

Realistically, what would they poll players on at this point? They already know there is a range of feelings that players would have on this. It’s redundant.

^^ That’s a pretty insightful post. People should take some time to think about why prices are what they are and how they will be affected by Anet’s new direction.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Obtena.7952:

FrizzFreston.5290:

ArenaNet wants a volume of opinions (uninformed or not), since they specifically have this forum and community managers for reddit, facebook, etc., scouting for those opinions. However, that doesn’t mean anyone who post here is making a decision. It’s suggestions and requests, which may or may not be fulfilled AT ArenaNet’s discretion. Even a poll would be entirely controlled by ArenaNet. The options on the poll would be chosen carefully so that even the most uninformed person can make a sensible contribution to the decision.

Let’s be careful here … being open to opinions is WAY different than openly asking players how the game should be designed with polls and such. Anet does one but not the other.

So when I see a thread on a poll of opinions to change game design, that just makes no sense to me. Anet already know there is a wide range of opinion on the matter … what would you think they would learn from doing that? Frankly, I think it’s a big waste of resources for them to go around polling players on this change and that change.

They’ve been doing polls for changes to WvW for some time now so obviously they don’t think it’s a waste of resources.

Google WvW polls.

Um, that kind of proves what I’m saying … if they want players to participate, they WILL do so. They didn’t here, for whatever reason.

FrizzFreston.5290:

ArenaNet wants a volume of opinions (uninformed or not), since they specifically have this forum and community managers for reddit, facebook, etc., scouting for those opinions. However, that doesn’t mean anyone who post here is making a decision. It’s suggestions and requests, which may or may not be fulfilled AT ArenaNet’s discretion. Even a poll would be entirely controlled by ArenaNet. The options on the poll would be chosen carefully so that even the most uninformed person can make a sensible contribution to the decision.

Let’s be careful here … being open to opinions is WAY different than openly asking players how the game should be designed with polls and such. Anet does one but not the other.

So when I see a thread on a poll of opinions to change game design, that just makes no sense to me. Anet already know there is a wide range of opinion on the matter … what would you think they would learn from doing that? Frankly, I think it’s a big waste of resources for them to go around polling players on this change and that change.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get the whole premise that Anet should ask players … Toyota doesn’t as me if I want 10 cup holders do they? ALl threads like this are the same lack of understanding of what you pay for as a customer to an MMO developer … it’s Access to content, not the content itself. If you understand this, you know why it’s silly to ‘ask players’ if something should be done.

It is not inherently silly to ask players if something should be done or not. It’s just entirely up to ArenaNet if they want to ask players. Which in some occasions they do.

That’s correct, but they didn’t in this case. They implemented it because it’s the design they wanted. That’s not flawed at all; there are lots of factors that go into this kind of decision that the average player has no clue about … so you think Anet wants a volume of uninformed opinions to make game design decisions? I think that would actually be irresponsible of them to do that.

Unless you have some reasonable argument that shows the changes don’t bring a more inclusive and challenging raid environment, then I don’t see much else to discuss here. That’s the topic of the thread. Making statements that may or may not be correct about the motivation for those changes is just a diversion.

Vinceman.4572:

Obtena.7952:

There is if they didn’t think it was hard enough or for whatever other reason they had. They don’t actually need a reason to justify changes to players if we are being honest.

If it were so, they would have reacted sooner.

The assumption also contradicts the recent statements of raids being fine for them.

I still don’t see any profound connection to PvE “issues”, it definitely was a PvP & WvW thing.

That’s a nice sentiment but you don’t know that anymore than I do not. It’s not really relevant anyways. The fact is that regardless of the reason, I am correct; the changes do create a more inclusive and challenging environment in raids, even if it is just a coincidence.

CptAurellian.9537:

Obtena.7952:

Really? Do you care to explain why? Let me start: Here is why I think it’s true:

Primarily, because raids were too easy with excessive boon durations and sharing.
Secondly, because the compositions were biased too much against unfavoured classes

So basically, if Anet is advertising an inclusive and challenging raiding environment, everything that got nerfed moves them in that direction.

Nothing has changed about “excessive boon durations and sharing”.

Well, if that’s truly what you believe, there isn’t really anything to complain about is there …

Vinceman.4572:

Obtena.7952:

It’s wrong that these changes lead to a more inclusive and challenging raiding environment? No, I don’t think that’s wrong.

That’s not what I meant. I’m saying that they had no intention to make raids more challenging on purpose now, at this time point. Without having new elite specs or other new introductions into the game there is no reason to make content harder if it wasn’t over one year.

There is if they didn’t think it was hard enough or for whatever other reason they had. They don’t actually need a reason to justify changes to players if we are being honest.

Vinceman.4572:

Obtena.7952:

Primarily, because raids were too easy with excessive boon durations and sharing.
Secondly, because the compositions were biased too much against unfavoured classes

So basically, if Anet is advertising an inclusive and challenging raiding environment, everything that got nerfed moves them in that direction.

But that’s wrong. They are pleased how raids are going. I really doubt that they nerf things for making the wings harder if the first is out for a year, the second 6 months and 3rd 3 months. It makes no sense at all, they would have reacted faster.

It’s wrong that these changes lead to a more inclusive and challenging raiding environment? No, I don’t think that’s wrong.

I don’t get the whole premise that Anet should ask players … Toyota doesn’t as me if I want 10 cup holders do they? ALl threads like this are the same lack of understanding of what you pay for as a customer to an MMO developer … it’s Access to content, not the content itself. If you understand this, you know why it’s silly to ‘ask players’ if something should be done.

I don’t get why anyone would need to delete all their characters just to choose a realm/world to play on. Is that a real thing?

I won’t speculate with you on why you think the changes were made. If Anet wants an inclusive, challenging raid experience, the changes make sense. If those changes are good for WvW as well, so be it. It’s really not relevant what the primary reason was; you don’t need to be a genius to see it works for both.

CptAurellian.9537:

Obtena.7952:

Anet does understand how their changes affect how players ‘solve’ raids … that’s why they make those changes.

Now that’s something I seriously doubt when I think of the consequences the last round of balancing had.

Really? Do you care to explain why? Let me start: Here is why I think it’s true:

Primarily, because raids were too easy with excessive boon durations and sharing.
Secondly, because the compositions were biased too much against unfavoured classes

So basically, if Anet is advertising an inclusive and challenging raiding environment, everything that got nerfed moves them in that direction.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

This makes no sense. IF I said players should get more skill, that doesn’t mean much without some context don’t you think? Just because I may have made a statement that players should get more skill, that doesn’t mean I’m making an argument about raid composition or scenarios with that statement. However you made that connection, I don’t know, but at this point, it doesn’t surprise me as you don’t even seem to have a coherent argument anyways. YOu just seem to think that ‘being opposite’ is how this works. Let me bring you back around as you seem astray.

The argument here is raid diversity and you know its just nonsense to claim changes are bad and lead to less diversity because of how it affects some extremely difficult and risky approach to self-imposed restrictions on making a raid comp that the game wasn’t designed around in the first place. The fact is that any extreme difficult scenario you can present as an argument is so precarious in the first place, that even a butterfly’s wing flapping could affect it For example, even the randomness of weapon direct damage could make that scenario fail, it’s such an extreme. It makes more sense to argue that weapon damage range should be removed based on these extreme scenarios that it does to argue against the changes that were made in the last patch.

I suggest you find a more sensible argument and try again because that one just makes no sense whatsoever.

You suggest the extremely difficult scenario of dropping chronos as well and present it as diversity. Can raid designers themselves do that and succeed?

Are we on the same planet? Let me try this again … I’m talking about raid diversity, the topic of the thread and I’m saying it makes no sense for you to claim that the changes are bad based on extreme scenarios you present. It is YOU making these claims, not me.

AndyS.5630:

And once again any player-imposed restrictions are controlled by Anet-made balance. There is correlation. They are supposed to understand that.

No, that’s false because there is absolutely NO Anet-made balance effect that makes a group of players decide to impose upon themselves, by choice, specific raid comps; the number of combinations of comps to ‘solve’ raids is sufficiently sized to ensure that. I know this because EVERY time a group deviates from the meta and wins, it makes that true. Anet does understand how their changes affect how players ‘solve’ raids … that’s why they make those changes.

If you aren’t willing to acknowledge the simple concept that there is a difference between players deciding to choose higher risk compositions and making raid compositions that are forced on you because of skill/game changes, then I can only conclude you are being purposefully obtuse to just be argumentative. I’m done with you.

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

Personally, I would like to see Legendary armors have integrated convenience effects … RS buff being one of them.

No. This game isn’t supposed to be one where grinding it out for better gear gets your character a distinct bonus. Ascended is the top of the line according to ANet. Legendary anything should never have a buff of any kind on it. Ever.

There is nothing ‘distinct’ about a RS buff, regardless of where you find it, so your argument makes no sense. I mean, you should just be more honest … you find it offensive that someone with Legendary armor would get such an advantage. At least that would make sense, even if I wouldn’t agree with it.

I didn’t use the word distinct in my post, ….

NO? Are you sure about that? Let me help you out …

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

Personally, I would like to see Legendary armors have integrated convenience effects … RS buff being one of them.

No. This game isn’t supposed to be one where grinding it out for better gear gets your character a distinct bonus. Ascended is the top of the line according to ANet. Legendary anything should never have a buff of any kind on it. Ever.

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

Personally, I would like to see Legendary armors have integrated convenience effects … RS buff being one of them.

No. This game isn’t supposed to be one where grinding it out for better gear gets your character a distinct bonus. Ascended is the top of the line according to ANet. Legendary anything should never have a buff of any kind on it. Ever.

There is nothing ‘distinct’ about a RS buff, regardless of where you find it, so your argument makes no sense. I mean, you should just be more honest … you find it offensive that someone with Legendary armor would get such an advantage. At least that would make sense, even if I wouldn’t agree with it.

duster.7013:

Amaimon.7823:

Did you do raids, Migraine, completed fractal Ad Infitum?
If you want difficulty, do some of that. If you find that easy, come back and complain to your hearts’ content.

But I want the games main content to be fun. Fractals seem to just be gear/grinding, raids are alright, but a small part of the game.

If you understood the history of this game, you would know why this won’t ever happen. You see, the game is built to appease the people that want the opposite thing you are asking for, so to change it would be to ignore the whole business case this game was centered around.

Contrary to what some people think or say in this thread, the game was never hard or challenging. There were some bright spots that could get you if you weren’t paying attention or aware, but that didn’t make they hard … So in short, the game was designed with this particular difficulty in mind; it’s no accident and to change it would mean significantly bad things for veterans of this game.
/thread.

Personally, I would like to see Legendary armors have integrated convenience effects … RS buff being one of them.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

Maybe … but I’m not making any argument dependent on the raid condition at all, you are … so I don’t see the relevance of that statement, or anything else you said as a response to my post.

Yes you do. Because you said that players should get more skill. It is creating an exceptional raid condition which is not different from any other exceptional raid condition.

This makes no sense. IF I said players should get more skill, that doesn’t mean much without some context don’t you think? Just because I may have made a statement that players should get more skill, that doesn’t mean I’m making an argument about raid composition or scenarios with that statement. However you made that connection, I don’t know, but at this point, it doesn’t surprise me as you don’t even seem to have a coherent argument anyways. YOu just seem to think that ‘being opposite’ is how this works. Let me bring you back around as you seem astray.

The argument here is raid diversity and you know its just nonsense to claim changes are bad and lead to less diversity because of how it affects some extremely difficult and risky approach to self-imposed restrictions on making a raid comp that the game wasn’t designed around in the first place. The fact is that any extreme difficult scenario you can present as an argument is so precarious in the first place, that even a butterfly’s wing flapping could affect it For example, even the randomness of weapon direct damage could make that scenario fail, it’s such an extreme. It makes more sense to argue that weapon damage range should be removed based on these extreme scenarios that it does to argue against the changes that were made in the last patch.

I suggest you find a more sensible argument and try again because that one just makes no sense whatsoever.

aikatara.3462:

When it finally regulates itself the market will hopefully remember that there are players who do not have much time at hand to play and who don’t want to spend their precious playtime solely on grinding money.

This argument is such a fallacy … you spend your precious playtime grinding money whether you like it or not because almost every activity I can think of rewards you with gold directly, or with mats you can sell to make gold. The best part is that this ‘unintentional grinding’ for gold is fun because Anet made it the reward for playing, not JUST purposeful grinding.

You see them where? I mean, if you don’t see someone not say it’s OK, does that mean they aren’t there?

You see what you want to see, because it supports your position. You aren’t being sensible when you make statements like “I see more people BLAH BLAH” … of course you do … because people don’t make redundant threads about how they like the prices for mats. That would be stupid … so you DON’T see those people. I hear lots about people being murdered … yet I don’t hear about people not being murdered … do I conclude murder is rampant? No. Some deductive reasoning is in order here. Try it.

I get you don’t like the price but unless you live under a rock, you know Anet does things in game that affect pricing. Every time i see threads like this, I think “Wow, way to ignore the last 4+ years of the game”. I guess you think your sarcastic remarks are meaningful to Anet yet they are not inline with the guidelines to good feedback … Guess who is more likely to be taken seriously?

Frankly, I don’t see the problem with 30s T6 leather, just like I don’t see the problem with cheap ectos or whatever FOTM rant on pricing seems to be and if you play this game, you can’t because it’s dictated by the market price more than ever now that Anet is putting it on cruise control.

You got options, but I can assure you, one of them is not to goad/bully/harrass Anet into just putting more T6 leather in the game.

Oh the irony …EYE fail at it. OK :/

Yes, you think it’s wrong, so it’s wrong. Players are the epitome of correctness in MMO’s. We all heard this before.

OriOri.8724:

Apparently there is nothing wrong with the supply though. Nothing wrong with the least accessible mat being needed in the highest quantities

That’s true … now you’re catching on.

Ardid.7203:

I don’t know most people’s opinion… but at least I only use skins that I like, and I think are coherent with my character. If they are made in the crafting stations, obtained through rng or paid with gems doesn’t matter to me.

As an example, I have a Guardian with a “rough ceramic” theme, who uses some asuran cultural pieces mixed with a few common basic armors and beaded Hylek weapons. I could maybe incorporate some ley-line armor to him, but ley line weapons just wouldnt work, and none of the black lion items would, either. I don’t care how exclusive are the pieces of his equipment. I only care he looks like I want him to.

Rareness is overrated.

That’s exactly what I was thinking. I don’t use things just because they are rare or hard to get because frankly, most of the rare hard to get things either don’t fit themes I want for my characters or are downright stupid/ugly.

This is all really a matter of personal preference but anyone who equips an item because of rarity is ‘doing it wrong’ in a manner of speaking … I mean, how can any one claim to care about how a skin looks and use it if they are purchasing and using it because of rarity? I think the complaint here in the thread is more about collecting than using skins.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

Therefore, the argument that AndyS was making where the changes are bad because of how they affect exceptional raid conditions is still nonsense.

Having 10 skilled people is also an exceptional raid condition.

Maybe … but I’m not making any argument dependent on the raid condition at all, you are … so I don’t see the relevance of that statement, or anything else you said as a response to my post. To me, it’s almost like an acknowledgement … you know what exceptional raid conditions are because you claim to know of such a condition … so you should easily be able to conclude why you said makes no sense with respect to how raids are designed on and changes to things affect those extreme conditions.

That’s all? Time to buy.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

It’s actually why a one difficulty mode works. It makes balancing infinitely easier as there’s not 256k variables to work through to point to as the source of the problem.

But that’s neither here nor there, and you really should stop pushing the easy mode agenda.

Saying that balance must be done around one fragment of one game mode with only small minority of overall players playing it – is very funny indeed.
How about being sane developers and doing other way around?

How about being reasonable, informed players and seeing what is really achievable within the scope of developing an MMO game? What you are implying that should happen hasn’t in any game I’ve ever played. There is a reason for that and I don’t think it’s due to all game devs trained to be bad at creating balanced class situations.

It’s not on metabattle so it sucks? Jeez, what ever happened to figuring things out on your own? It’s fine and it has it’s uses.

I would love to see someone with out a doubt show any particular person was using macros.

In this game? no. It’s made to be that way.

Yes, and that’s a comment that is based on a relative assessment to what unskilled players can do. So I don’t see how any class change would affect that. Also, skilled players are still going to do things that devs didn’t plan for.

Therefore, the argument that AndyS was making where the changes are bad because of how they affect exceptional raid conditions is still nonsense.

afrocrusade.4253:

The title says it all.

Necromancer is literally “Conditions: The Class” yet every other class does conditions much, much better.

Why is necro being holed into some sort of support role? It sucks. It’s not fun. This is just a bad class right now.

I think it’s important to define what you mean … My condi necro soloes some of the hardest PVE content … none of my other condi classes do that as easy or at all … For me, that makes condi necro way better.