As long as they give us some PVE buffs in the process, I’d be ok with the change. Stacking or chaining stealth is a cheesy tactic.
I’m confused why I’m the one who is “kitten” when I’m talking about the good things a Thief can bring.
That’s obvious. Because you’re trying to portray the class as better than it actually is. Calling its lack of survivability a “L2P” problem and our utility “ridiculous”. When I called you out on it and showed that there is nothing “ridiculous” about our utility and that it’s mediocre at best, weaker than everyone else’s at worst, you start backtracking and using strawman argument on how useful some skills can be in some very situational examples. Please do switch to your thief full time. Maybe you’ll start posting less biased crap like your class buddy Columba.
I’m amused that you call it nonsense and then mention that there are differences in how “forgivable” the classes are when making mistakes or missing dodges.
Your point being what exactly? So the higher “skill floor” that you’re referring to is really referring to lack of survivability that Thief has? Hilarious.
Obviously you aren’t getting to the high level fractals where vitality and toughness aren’t going to help you … the way you stay alive in those is to not take damage … watch some high level fractal videos.
Thanks for supporting my point. There is nothing thieves can do (even at the expense of damage) to reach the level of survivability of other classes. We don’t have access to Protection and Aegis which actually make a difference. As for dodging, getting Feline Grace/Bountiful Theft breaks many builds.
- Caltrop – 10 seconds of a decent sized AOE that cripples and bleeds enemies in it. Provides some control to better enable kiting
- Smoke Screen – Blocks projectiles and blinds oppponents. Enemies with ranged attacks are some of the most deadly because you can’t kite them
- Shadow Refuge – Enable a break from taking non-AOE damage and heal. Also great for rezzing, the control panel in dredges, etc.
- Blind Powder – weaker version of shadow refuge (stealth-wise) but provides a blind
- Ambush – provides another body to take hits and deal damage
There’s also venom sharing builds that are quite nice to have in groups.
There’s might+fury+swiftness on steal
There’s vigor on steal
There’s regen on stealthThief is far more than just “more damage!”. That’s how mouthbreathers think.
Not one of those things is “ridiculous” utility as YOU referred to them. Most of them are forgettable and all of them are replaceable by another class, often better.
- Caltrops – it’s one of our best utilities, I usually have it on my bar. But Rangers’ Muddy Terrain, Spike Trap and Frost Trap all do the same/better job. They can also spec for double duration and damage and 50% increased radius on traps. Pretty sure I’ve seen similar effects from other classes as well. Nothing unique about it.
- Smoke Screen – yeah, it’s nice having a utility skill that’s replaceable by a Guardian weapon skill.
- Shadow Refuge – The best utility we have, and pretty much the only reason that you’d WANT a thief in your group, for stealth rezzing.
- Blind Powder – 3s stealth… even comparing this to SR is just lol. A utility comparable to a combo field. And blind is pretty much useless against any enemies that you would care for it to work.
- Ambush – lol…. this “body” dies in seconds to white mobs open world PVE
- Venom sharing – Requires 30pts in Shadow Arts. Sounds cool on paper but is actually quite weak. One of the most forgettable 30 pt traits…
- Might/Fury/Swiftness on Steal – requires 10 pts in Trickery, tied to a 45s (specced at best 34.5s) cooldown and the 10s buffs are inferior to what other classes can offer with spamable utilities/weapon skills.
- Vigor on Steal – requires 20 pts in Trickery, tied to a 45s (specced at best 34.5s) cooldown. It’s… nice… I guess… if you’re already speccing that high up that crappy tree
- Regen on stealth – Shadow Protector requires 10pts in Shadow Arts and grants a whopping 5s regen when you stealth an ally (20s internal cooldown). Given that stealthing alies is highly situational, a 5s regen is pretty weak utility. Forgettable at best. It’s also bugged that it doesn’t even apply the regen if there is one already on the ally.
There is nothing amazing about thief utility. We’re there for DPS and rezzing. Anything else is just a bonus that most wont even notice.
You’re just another bu**-hurt Ranger spewing biased crap on Thief forums. Go “mouthbreathe” on your own forum.
A bad thief/ranger is a completely wasted slot in a group. A bad guardian, etc. can still be somewhat useful
Hence, it’s not a L2Play issue and both classes could use some help. There are bad players of all classes. I highly doubt that the reason you notice more bad Thieves/Rangers is because more “bads” play those classes. A more plausible explanation is that those classes have drawbacks and weaknesses that make a bad player more obvious and less useful to the group.
No, it’s an issue of l2p that is exacerbated by the Thief having a higher skill floor in PvE (their PvP skill floor is LOW) and the Ranger having a higher skill floor (largely due to some brokenness). Given two equally skilled players (i.e. no issue of l2p), you’re not going to care much if they are a Thief/Ranger or not unless you’re looking at the capabilities of the group as a whole instead of just those of the player.
The Guardian is loved so much in PvE because it is extremely forgiving in PvE. Failed your dodge roll? No problem, you have Aegis every 40 (30 traited) seconds and a plethora of blocks, etc. you can use. Heck, you even have an invuln trait if you’d like. Couple this with the fact that they can stumble around and provide support and you have a class that is easily able to contribute. Low PvE skill floor. I still don’t want a noob guardian in my groups.
The Warrior is loved so much because honestly their damage in PvE is pretty darn OP (or closely bordering OP) coupled with the fact that they have endure pain as both a trait and a utility. This makes them very forgiving as even noob can still do a good bit during the time they are immune to direct damage. I still don’t want a noob warrior in my groups.
Just by switching around skills and weapons for various fights, Thieves can provide a ridiculous amount of both great damage and great support to their groups. The problem is that many of them are noob and take the same skills they use for their build for PvP (where there is a low skill floor for thieves) and try to use them in PvE (where there is a higher skill floor for thieves)
Nonsense. All classes in this game are extremely simple to play. The only “skill” involved is avoiding the damage, and that’s a skill universal to all classes. In high end PVE, these damage abilities are often of one-shot or near one-shot nature, so the only difference between Thieves and other classes is how unforgivable making any mistakes or missing any dodges can be. There’s no higher “skill” cap, only less margin for error. That is neither fun nor good class design. And they bring nothing extraordinary to the group in exchange for this frailty.
You could gear for heavy vitality and toughness to overcome class weaknesses and give yourself some room for error, but then your damage will be awful, your utility is always mediocre at best, so you literally become a waste of a group slot.
Oh, and please enlighten us on these awesome utility options that Thief can provide on fight to fight basis.
Send feedback to anet. No it’s not balanced.
More unconstructive feedback from our residential Thief-forum troll.
OP, yes it’s balanced. If you’re dieing in 3 seconds, you’re a glass canon. The thief that kills in 3 seconds is glass canon too. He dies just as fast.
(edited by Okamakiri.8746)
A bad thief/ranger is a completely wasted slot in a group. A bad guardian, etc. can still be somewhat useful
Hence, it’s not a L2Play issue and both classes could use some help. There are bad players of all classes. I highly doubt that the reason you notice more bad Thieves/Rangers is because more “bads” play those classes. A more plausible explanation is that those classes have drawbacks and weaknesses that make a bad player more obvious and less useful to the group.
Since this week, the two best fractal groups I’ve ever had in 20+ both had 2 thieves in them. I now think that Thieves that say they are in a bad place in PvE are just experiencing l2 kitten ues.
Sadly, because I’ve encountered so many bad thieves for fractals and other dungeons, I’m still very wary when I see them in my groups.
- Tells Thieves to L2P and that there’s nothing wrong with them in dungeons.
- Tells Thieves he doesn’t want them in his dungeons.
/facepalm
It seems okay to me.
NPCs hit you, you stealth, NPC finishes the swing or attack it was already doing, you get hurt a bit if you were standing there, and then NPC pauses there for a bit wondering where you are. Before, the NPC would just suddenly turn away and run back lol. That was annoying to chase down and backstab >.<.
L2Read. The NPC doesn’t finish the swing in the place where you were standing when you went into stealth, it keeps facing you as you move in stealth to finish the swing/cast on you.
EDIT: I have never, ever had that problem with a charged up swing, the ones that use that greyish “power attack” animation. What DOES kitten me off is that there is one type of mob… Ettins I think… that have an AoE on that attack that reaches BEHIND them.
I’m not talking about the ground targeted attacks like the Ettin one you refer to. There are some attacks, that also take 1-2 seconds to charge up like the Ettin one, but are single targeted and continue to target you when you go in stealth. One example is the pirates in Kryta that sometimes kneel down and do an aimed shot.
The channeled attacks following you in stealth problem has been here since release. This second problem I’ve noticed since the last patch.
^ There are also mobs that do charge up “snipe” attacks, and some that also do charge up swing attacks. Both are targeted and will therefore track you and land on you even in stealth. Completely broken.
So because dagger/dagger has no interrupt, mechanics should be changed so that thieves can use stealth as a solution to everything?
Yes.
Why? No other classes can reset mobs like that.
Why not? What does it matter if other classes couldn’t do it before (they could btw, stealth isn’t exclusive to Thief). Thieves don’t have:
- pets
- heavy armor
- ability to clones themselves
- Aegis
- AoE heals
- roots
- confusion
- Moa
- etc.
Do you see the pattern? Not all classes are the same, nor should they be. Do you realize yet how dumb your question is?
P.S. I never asked for mob reset to be brought back. You brought that up. This discussion was about mobs following you and attacking you WHILE you’re still in stealth. That is completely broken. It’s equivalent to Aegis sometimes not blocking, but still getting consumed. Get with the program.
So because dagger/dagger has no interrupt, mechanics should be changed so that thieves can use stealth as a solution to everything?
Yes.
Edit: Stealth as solution to everything is exactly what we’re asking for. /sarcasm
(edited by Okamakiri.8746)
Just cut the BS. There is a huge difference between continuing an attack and homing a channel for the entire duration of stealth. I don’t expect mobs/players to stop doing whatever they’re doing as soon as I stealth, but I do expect them to not auto-target me and continue to follow me with their attack as I frantically try to avoid it in stealth.
Well yes you are expecting mobs to continue whatever they are doing while you walk around them in stealth and backstab them. Don’t try to avoid continuous attacks with stealth. Don’t blind them as that only prevents one lick of damage. Evading round them will probably only miss a couple of licks as well. Aegis will prevent just one lick of damage. Learn to play and use an interrupt.
Don’t be obtuse. Again, there’s a huge difference between 1) continuing your swing in the direction where you last saw someone expecting them to be there, and 2) turning 180 degrees mid-swing to attack someone that’s suppose to be invisible. Only a Thief hater and/or someone that’s never played the class would defend such a broken mechanic.
P.S. If you “learned to play”, you would know that D/D has no interrupt.
Ok then would you have a problem with the mob fully healing once you are stealthed? You can’t have both, sorry.
Never had that problem. The only times mobs reset on me, is when I wanted them to reset. And btw, that’s completely unrelated to the discussion. Defending a bug with a lazy fix of another bug is just poor programming.
Just cut the BS. There is a huge difference between continuing an attack and homing a channel for the entire duration of stealth. I don’t expect mobs/players to stop doing whatever they’re doing as soon as I stealth, but I do expect them to not auto-target me and continue to follow me with their attack as I frantically try to avoid it in stealth.
Well yes you are expecting mobs to continue whatever they are doing while you walk around them in stealth and backstab them. Don’t try to avoid continuous attacks with stealth. Don’t blind them as that only prevents one lick of damage. Evading round them will probably only miss a couple of licks as well. Aegis will prevent just one lick of damage. Learn to play and use an interrupt.
Don’t be obtuse. Again, there’s a huge difference between 1) continuing your swing in the direction where you last saw someone expecting them to be there, and 2) turning 180 degrees mid-swing to attack someone that’s suppose to be invisible. Only a Thief hater and/or someone that’s never played the class would defend such a broken mechanic.
P.S. If you “learned to play”, you would know that D/D has no interrupt.
Lets think about our flamethrower mob who has started burning people before you into stealth. Does he (a) stop burning (b) burn where he thinks you are © follow and burn you?
a) Stealth becomes an interrupt. Other targets could be in the aoe and they become protected by your stealth. This is bad.
b) Stealth now lets mobs waste their attacks firing into empty air when they should be attacking other enemies. This is bad and gives stealth too much advantage.
c) Bad for thieves but we understand stealth, we know it doesn’t interrupt attacks, we deal with it.
Just cut the BS. There is a huge difference between continuing an attack and homing a channel for the entire duration of stealth. I don’t expect mobs/players to stop doing whatever they’re doing as soon as I stealth, but I do expect them to not auto-target me and continue to follow me with their attack as I frantically try to avoid it in stealth.
Well, the bad thieves die in melee. The good ones make good use of dodge rolls, chain blinding, etc.. Other thieves decide they will use range.
Rangers don’t have dodge? Blind is next to useless on champions. Ranged Thief DPS is terrible.
Given how uninformed your answers are on here, you’re probably one of the programmers my group gets fired each year after we show all the holes in your crap for the 20th time.
lol… my 6-figure salary is enough of a “up yours” answer to that petty insult. Judging by “my group” comment, you’re probably one of those envious QA guys.
That’s exactly the stealth I was talking about with Engineer that ArenaNet said “we don’t want this” and removed. Again, if you had actually taken part in helping the game’s development, you would know this… or if you had even paid attention to the patch notes.
Engineer has never had anything close to C&D or BlackPowder + Heartseeker. While what they were able to do was like BlackPowder + Heartseeker in that it was a combo, they did it with smoke bomb which is on a 25 second cooldown so it was nowhere near what the Thief can do.
Please try harder to make sure you know what is being discussed before you chime in.
Again, neither the Eng nor the Thief “perma stealth” (it’s still not that) examples have anything to do with Thief gameplay style. It’s a design flaw in how combo fields work.
You claimed that devs intended Thieves to use stealth dynamically, but failed because of “perma stealth”. I disagreed with you and explained why when the Thief is actually engaged in combat there is no such thing as “perma stealth”. You attempted to prove it with an example that’s only viable when not engaged in combat. Unlike you, I don’t need to resort to petty insults to have a discussion with someone who disagrees with me.
The fact that you think Rangers are a complete faceroll class because you “lvled” one up pretty much tells me everything i need to know about your opinion on the subject.
and Thieves the weakest class in Pve?
Rofl…
i will give you that thieves blow kitten underwater (at least in my opinion)
On land though…No..
Yes, Ranger is a simple class with a low skill cap. Especially in PVE.
But enlighten us, who and why is weaker than thieves in PVE? Particularly high end PVE.
OMG, you want to talk about high-end PVE? What is that exactly? The high level fractals? Do you have even a clue at the issues currently facing Rangers there? Perhaps you should take a look over at Robert Hrouda’s posts (ArenaNet Dev, since I assume you’re ignorant of this as well).
Here’s a glaring one, pet’s dying extremely easily in dungeons because some areas even calling the pet back isn’t sufficient (Ranger controls over the pet are very primitive).
Pets having no Agony Resistance even though the Ranger does.
All pets suck in this game. Ask the Necros if they have any sympathy for the Rangers. But that doesn’t mean that the Ranger is any less useful than the Thief. If you think pets are dieing easily, what do you think is happening to squishy thieves in melee range?
There is a big difference between beta and BWEs.
There is an even bigger difference between playing in BWEs and participating in bug reports, reading up patch notes, testing them, and providing feedback.
You don’t know anything about me, my experience, what I do for a living or what I did during the beta events. Programmer btw, for many years. I know a thing or two about bugs.
Oh really … let’s take a look around then shall we …
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-Infinite-Stealth-dagger-pistol-SB/first#post1511492What was that you said about “if you played thief, you would know these things” … what does this say about you?
Also, if you read the previous posts, mesmer illusions and ranger pets were brought up. Both are trivial targets to continuously cloak and dagger on as are the multitude of NPCs in WvW.
Really? That’s your “perma stealth” example? Clearly we’re talking about different things here.
First of all, it is not “perma stealth” in combat. It’s not even “perma” (anything that requires constant active refreshing is not perma). But I do agree that it’s cheesy and lame, and can be game breaking if used right. I wouldn’t have a problem if devs found a way to prevent it (a simple cap on stealth duration would suffice), but seeing how that “utility” is one of few (only?) reasons why anyone would ever want a thief in their dungeon group, some compensation would be required at the same time.
But coming back to what I was saying, in combat “perma stealth” is not possible aside from the culling assisted method that I described. The method that you link does not allow ANY attacking since 1) it ends the stealth immediately, 2) puts a reveal debuff on you.
Btw, if anyone does try using this tactic against you in combat, what exactly are you doing while those clearly visible smoke circles are down with a big “ATTACK HERE” target over them?
The fact that you think Rangers are a complete faceroll class because you “lvled” one up pretty much tells me everything i need to know about your opinion on the subject.
and Thieves the weakest class in Pve?
Rofl…
i will give you that thieves blow kitten underwater (at least in my opinion)
On land though…No..
Yes, Ranger is a simple class with a low skill cap. Especially in PVE.
But enlighten us, who and why is weaker than thieves in PVE? Particularly high end PVE.
Heck, engineer was changed because they could perma-stealth with their smoke field and mine kit (back when it was a kit) or bomb kit … yet ArenaNet is allowing thieves to do it now several months later. That doesn’t sit right with me.
It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t sit right with you. Thief is meant to be a stealth based class, engineer isn’t.
They removed it because they didn’t want perma-stealth in the game. That was their stance during beta. Here we are several months later with Thieves with perma-stealth.
They didn’t want people with perma-stealth, they wanted a dynamic stealth used when fighting … well … lol.
If you were actually around during beta and took part in finding bugs, reading patch notes, and providing feedback then you would know these things.
I’ve been with the game since BE1. Nice try at discrediting people who don’t agree with your bs.
Perma stealth is a myth. The closest thing you can get is CnDing after letting stealth run out on its own. With talents, that’s 4s after every CnD. So “perma stealth” = CnD every 4s, which requires having both initiative and a target to land it on. Outside of culling bug (which is getting fixed in next patch) that never has and never will be perma stealth. There are other tricks that can grant you extended stealth by chaining some utility cooldowns together, but it’s still far from perma stealth.
If you played a thief, you would know these things.
Heck, engineer was changed because they could perma-stealth with their smoke field and mine kit (back when it was a kit) or bomb kit … yet ArenaNet is allowing thieves to do it now several months later. That doesn’t sit right with me.
It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t sit right with you. Thief is meant to be a stealth based class, engineer isn’t.
i remember that the devs cant adjust something drastic in PvE because it will affect WvWvW
maybe a split skill would suffice to balance things out?
If only they applied that logic vice versa as well. So many PVP triggered nerfs ruining the PVE side of the game since release. And Thief isn’t the only victim of this either, but certainly feels like the biggest.
QQ more. Game never has and never will be balanced around WvWvW.
This happens in sPvP matches too where it is supposed to be balanced. A thief can simply leave the fight. Thankfully, they made it so Thieves can no longer contest points while stealthed.
Also, “so what, it’s never going to be balanced” isn’t really a great answer for people discussing whether something is balanced or not. It’s pretty much you admitting that it isn’t.
1. Point of WvWvW is to take objectives, not have 1v1 kitten measuring contests in the middle of fields. Stop worrying about thieves running away from you with their tail tucked between their legs because you just kicked their kitten and worry more about helping your server.
2. If they’re running away in sPvP, it’s even worse than WvWvW, since it’s even more objective based, and making them run away is equivalent to killing them. Again, less kitten swinging, more worrying about the match.
3. I never admitted to it being unbalanced, only you’re claiming that. I don’t see anything unbalanced. If anything, thieves need survival buffs. This coming from someone with several 80s who doesn’t base his opinions on just one very flawed aspect of the game.
4. PVE. It’s a huge part of the game. In fact, it’s much bigger than sPVP and WvWvW put together. Thieves have never been very strong in this department, and the continued nerfs due to PVP whiners have only made them weaker.
QQ more. Game never has and never will be balanced around WvWvW.
Then why even post about it buddy, lol.
No one here is saying they are going to uninstall if thieves do/don’t get nerfed. It is however all over the boards that other people are feeling that way about thieves.
It’s a hotly debated class. There is a massive amount of media supporting those saying that thieves likely need a nerf even after culling is fixed. Some of those people play thief as their main. The people, like you, debating the other side, simply say to be “l2p” or make a video where they intentionally play like garbage and don’t even stat/trait for it right or take into account the context being described.
I.E. he has my respect not because he agrees with me but because he is willing to admit to something that could result in a class he plays being made weaker than it currently is while you, on the other hand, selfishly deny that there is anything really wrong with it. Your posts don’t even accept the potential that there’s an issue.
As I’ve said before in my other posts, I personally don’t have problems with most thieves, but I spec specifically to be able to handle them since I roam. I however see all the garbage going on in the rest of the game to other people, then I go test it myself as a thief, and I see that there is quite a bit of validity to those claims and that it’s really easy to do as a thief … took me 5 minutes to practically master the few things we see Thieves doing. Did I get owned 1v1 by actual “pro” thieves? Yes. Did I own “pros” of other classes 1v1 as a Thief after less than an hour of play on the Thief? Yes.
He mains a Ranger not the Thief and Rangers have always been screwed over by their Pets vs C&D. They refuse to make pets stow-able so they need to make it so when a ranger evades, the pet also gets the evade immunity frames. That way a Ranger can still spend endo and have his pet dodge C&D. That is a player skill based solution that would help rangers immensely.
Everyone has an opinion or an angle they are coming from. This game is very easy to create alts with. For every one person with multiple characters who has a 80 full exotic thief and says they need a nerf there are just as many if not more who say they don’t. They also happen to play a Thief along with other professions at end game.
Thieves being overpowered is nothing in relation to Rangers (and C/D vs Ranger pets) that’s a completely separate issue entirely.
I’m actually referring how easy it is to play a Thief vs a Ranger period (not Ranger fighting a Thief for instance)
I can do pretty much everything I can on my ranger, on my thief..But require less effort and skill to do it…and have more survivability on top of it.
I tell you what, Anyone here thinks Thief isn’t overpowered, Go roll a Ranger right now, and do a Full glass cannon video of you playing it.
Come back into this thread, and tell me Thief isn’t a joke to play afterwards.
Ranger is a complete faceroll class. I’ve leveled one, it’s a snorefest. There is also this massive part of the game called PVE, where Thief is the weakest class. gtfo with your pvp bs.
Hate it with a passion. I stealth myself when I’m in trouble, the trait reveals me and gets me killed. I can see it being useful for builds that hardly ever stealth, but for CnD builds it’s terrible.
Agreed. I hate this trait, wish I could just turn it off.
I don’t mind the staying in combat part of the change. I very much mind the loss of aggro management. In the very least, it should at least lower threat if not completely reset it.
that’s how it was before and a lot of the time it made it more of a hassel than it was worth. If there are other targets around and you go stealth they will go onto those targets still (or at least that’s what I’ve noticed post patch). It’s just that now, it’s easier to keep things in combat while still using your cloaking skills to their fullest.
I never found the original mechanic a hassle. I find the current mechanic a lot more than a hassle, I find it game breaking for my play style.
Yeah, the mobs will go to other targets when you stealth, WHILE you remain in stealth. As soon as you pop out, they go back to you if you’re still at the top of the threat table. And now, I’m almost always at the top of the threat table. So I now have to hold back my DPS because ANet decided to change the way stealth mechanic has been working since beta? I play my thief as a glass canon and was able to survive as such prior to this patch. Now I’m forced to tank bosses and I’m not equipped for that. Had I known they would break stealth like this, I wouldn’t have invested so much time and money building my thief as such.
Like I said, I’d be fine if stealth kept us in combat as long as it at least lowered our threat (not wipe completely), so it’s easier for others to hold aggro off us.
I’ve noticed a huge change. Once I get threat on a boss, I can’t do anything anymore to shake it off.
Abuse it. Knowing where the threat is, and who is going to be targeted is a great advantage to a team.
If I want to tank bosses, I get on one of my other classes with 10x the survivability. On my thief, I’m there for my DPS and occasional rezzing.
IMO, thief has the BEST survivability vs the mossman (maybe 2nd to guardian) when the boss is on them. Just kite the guy around the hut and never get caught when he goes invis. Thieves probably have the best chance vs this guy just cause they actually know how invis works, therefore they know how to counter it. It’s kind of hard to explain, it’s just a learned thing.
Even if that was true, it does nothing to counter my point on every other encounter in the game. Having stealth reset threat since beta and letting people spend 6 months gearing their characters around that mechanic (which also happens to be how stealth works in every other MMO) and then completely changing it overnight is not right.
I don’t mind the staying in combat part of the change. I very much mind the loss of aggro management. In the very least, it should at least lower threat if not completely reset it.
Since “Precise Strikes” gives 33% chance on crit to bleed the target, and “Attack of Opportunity” increases ALL damage done by 10% on bleeding targets, it’s in your best interest to maximize the uptime of bleeds on your targets. Uptime of “Precise Strikes” is directly dependent on your crit chance. Therefore, if you’re having a hard time maintaining near 100% uptime, you can use “Deep Cuts” to improve it.
If I am able to maintain 95%~100% Crit rate, do you think it would be better to not have it?
Also, in dungeons, since multiple people are applying bleed, do you think it’s better to not have it?
If you’re finding that the target is spending most of its time bleeding even without “Deep Cuts” (and with your crit rate, I suspect it will… especially in dungeons with all the other classes that can apply their own bleeds as well), then I would certainly swap the trait out for something else. Personally, I like “Rending Strikes” as an alternative.
Since “Precise Strikes” gives 33% chance on crit to bleed the target, and “Attack of Opportunity” increases ALL damage done by 10% on bleeding targets, it’s in your best interest to maximize the uptime of bleeds on your targets. Uptime of “Precise Strikes” is directly dependent on your crit chance. Therefore, if you’re having a hard time maintaining near 100% uptime, you can use “Deep Cuts” to improve it.
I’ve noticed a huge change. Once I get threat on a boss, I can’t do anything anymore to shake it off.
Abuse it. Knowing where the threat is, and who is going to be targeted is a great advantage to a team.
If I want to tank bosses, I get on one of my other classes with 10x the survivability. On my thief, I’m there for my DPS and occasional rezzing.
Is OP just the word for strong or good nowadays? I always thought OP meant broken, imbalanced etc.
Guess its like troll someone that disagrees is a troll it seems now.
I have kind of been wondering the same thing. You’d figure OP would mean just that, overpowered, broken, and imbalanced. Now it kind of seems like people spout out the OP term if they can’t beat a class in wvw. Anyway, as the post is talking about pve I would have to say I’ve noticed little to no change with the stealth update.
I’ve noticed a huge change. Once I get threat on a boss, I can’t do anything anymore to shake it off.
If this was a change to “help” the thief in PvE, revert it. I never had problems with mobs resetting. This new change just means as soon as I’m visible again, I get attacked. There needs to be a second or two before a mob can react when you appear.
seriously
if this WAS the reason
never had i once gotten a mob to reset on me when leveling my thief using Cloak and Dagger and Backstab
if people actually had an issue with this it’s either a bug that only affected some people (highly unlikely) or just idiots who thought they could Stealth for the full duration to get passive effects in stealth to start activating or something
if not that,then they must have just been too stupid to understand how to act quick enough (which the timeframe was huge anyway) and they really just should NOT be rolling a thief,if that’s the case,periodIt had nothing to do with reaction times. Bosses like Lupicus were resetting instantaneously ignoring the other players in the area. Basically, the thief would stealth and the boss would forget the other party members along with the thief and reset the fight.
So one bugged boss that doesn’t interact correctly with ANY form of stealth, is a justification to destroy a class defining mechanic? Instead of fixing the bugged boss? Brilliant.
It’s a buff really, you now have a target to C&D on while making your get-away. No need to equip Shadow Refuge anymore, safer too, without the house mark. The ranger might be annoyed that his pet is having a will of its own but they can always complain on the forum. The ranger forum. Or would they still come here, “Thiefs steal our pets, this has to stop” ….
Everyone doing PVE would kindly like to return this “buff” for a full refund. Thanks
That’s why most games don’t allow stealth to lose aggro. The change made great sense, and thieves are still very powerful.
That’s not even true. Every single MMO that I’ve played treats stealth exactly the way it worked prior to this patch. Puts you out of combat, resetting the aggro table. This change makes no sense, both from a logical and a gameplay standpoint. I don’t care how much you try to justify it for WvWvW reasons, it’s game breaking in PVE. Stealth is a core mechanic and main form of defense for thieves, if we cannot manage our threat using it, we’re as good as dead.
Probably because now you’re still in combat when you stealth. Another negative side affect of that terrible change.
Unless you applied a ticking condition
You said it yourself. The solution to the resetting problem was as simple as doing a single DB, a minor inconvenience. On the other hand, the downsides to this change are huge and far outweigh the inconvenience of applying a DoT to your target.
Yes you could have used 5 initiative to do less than the autoattack in terms of damage, especially if you’re not specced for condition damage whatsoever, or for 1 more initiative you could stealth, and in the case of my build, remove conditions, blind foes, and regain health. Now you simply have to treat mobs a little more like enemy players. They only made them slightly smarter.
No, they didn’t just make mobs slightly smarter. They completely changed the way stealth works.
1) You cannot use it as an escape mechanic, something that’s a defining trait of stealth in EVERY game that has it.
2) You cannot drop your threat. As a class with highest burst and also one of the highest DPS (and we don’t bring much else to the table), we will have constant attention of mobs now, yet we’re probably least equipped to deal with that attention.
This is a terrible change. Applying a dot once every 18+ seconds in the rare occasion when you’re soloing tough mobs, using an ability that also provides evasion during its execution, is hardly enough of an inconvenience to justify such a drastic change in behaviour to our core mechanic.
So you just have to adjust your playstyle to treat them like other players. Other players wouldn’t drop aggro because they couldn’t see you, now NPCs do the same. Its just slightly better training now for wvw and PvP. You might actually have to stealth, switch to SB and use infiltrators arrow to get out instead of relying on the stupidity of the NPCs to escape. You might have to pop SR ahead of getting downed so you can get back up inside of it like you would have to in PvP or wvw. At least the mobs won’t start swinging inside the circle to down you regardless of whether or jot they can see you. The minor change will strengthen the thief playerbase.
1) Other players don’t automatically home in on me behind walls the second I pop out of stealth.
2) Players don’t have threat tables.
3) Players don’t have millions of HP.
4) Players don’t take 1/2 – 3/4 of my HP in a single hit.
5) I don’t give two kittens about PVP in this game.
Your PVP “logic” has no place in a PVE discussion.
Unless you applied a ticking condition
You said it yourself. The solution to the resetting problem was as simple as doing a single DB, a minor inconvenience. On the other hand, the downsides to this change are huge and far outweigh the inconvenience of applying a DoT to your target.
Yes you could have used 5 initiative to do less than the autoattack in terms of damage, especially if you’re not specced for condition damage whatsoever, or for 1 more initiative you could stealth, and in the case of my build, remove conditions, blind foes, and regain health. Now you simply have to treat mobs a little more like enemy players. They only made them slightly smarter.
No, they didn’t just make mobs slightly smarter. They completely changed the way stealth works.
1) You cannot use it as an escape mechanic, something that’s a defining trait of stealth in EVERY game that has it.
2) You cannot drop your threat. As a class with highest burst and also one of the highest DPS (and we don’t bring much else to the table), we will have constant attention of mobs now, yet we’re probably least equipped to deal with that attention.
This is a terrible change. Applying a dot once every 18+ seconds in the rare occasion when you’re soloing tough mobs, using an ability that also provides evasion during its execution, is hardly enough of an inconvenience to justify such a drastic change in behaviour to our core mechanic.
(edited by Okamakiri.8746)
Unless you applied a ticking condition
You said it yourself. The solution to the resetting problem was as simple as doing a single DB, a minor inconvenience. On the other hand, the downsides to this change are huge and far outweigh the inconvenience of applying a DoT to your target.
Seriously, why the hell is this in the “warrior” section? I play a zerker warrior in every aspect of this game, PvE, WvW, and sPvP. I don’t need this food to stay alive.
Obviously, if you can’t, don’t play the build/class.
Probably because warriors are hit the hardest by the fix of this crutch. While the change to this food is good for the game, it’s a pretty big hit to warrior’s survivability. I never used it on my warrior, but I also always felt that my warrior had lower sustainability compared to my other classes. Hopefully with this crutch gone, warriors can finally be properly balanced.
I’m pretty sure a glass cannon Thief will out-dps a glass cannon Warrior any day of the week.
Not true, Glass Cannon Warriors do almost double the damage a glass cannon thief does.
However with the changes, neither can survive melee combat anyways less your talking about pvp.
AOE maybe. Single target, no way. I do waaaaaaay more damage on my thief.
Dont confuse burst with DPS
lol… thanks for that condescending insight.
lol sorry that’s not how I meant it, but axe/mace or axe/axe your doing auto attacks for 3k-3.5k on crit… I don’t play a thief so I don’t know how hard a pure dps build hits, I do know your backstab hits for a truck load but other than that do you have a consistently high dps that doesn’t require init?
D/D auto attack chain → CnD → BS takes about 3s to execute all together. BS hits like a truck, CnD hits almost as hard, and the AA chain also does a lot of fast hard hits (not as hard as axe, but faster). The overall DPS over that 3s is very high, and it’s repeatable infinitely without any downtime between each iteration.
It’s funny, I was looking forward to this patch to give the game another try. I guess I can leave it on the shelf now.
I’m pretty sure a glass cannon Thief will out-dps a glass cannon Warrior any day of the week.
Not true, Glass Cannon Warriors do almost double the damage a glass cannon thief does.
However with the changes, neither can survive melee combat anyways less your talking about pvp.
AOE maybe. Single target, no way. I do waaaaaaay more damage on my thief.
Dont confuse burst with DPS
lol… thanks for that condescending insight.
I’m pretty sure a glass cannon Thief will out-dps a glass cannon Warrior any day of the week.
Not true, Glass Cannon Warriors do almost double the damage a glass cannon thief does.
However with the changes, neither can survive melee combat anyways less your talking about pvp.
AOE maybe. Single target, no way. I do waaaaaaay more damage on my thief.
Axe/X does more damage then any weapon in the game.
I don’t think that’s true even for just the Warrior, but without proper damage meters and logs it’s a moot argument.
Lets see, Axe does more damage in its skills and its ‘1’ ability… Warriors have more +% damage then any class, even thief, its kind of self explanatory.
- tooltips are wrong
- GS has more +% dmg
- when talking about all possible builds and gear setups for all classes in game, nothing is ever self explanatory
- again, without proper metrics, neither of us can prove anything, arguing is pointless
I’m pretty sure a glass cannon Thief will out-dps a glass cannon Warrior any day of the week.
Not true, Glass Cannon Warriors do almost double the damage a glass cannon thief does.
However with the changes, neither can survive melee combat anyways less your talking about pvp.
AOE maybe. Single target, no way. I do waaaaaaay more damage on my thief.
Axe/X does more damage then any weapon in the game.
I don’t think that’s true even for just the Warrior, but without proper damage meters and logs it’s a moot argument.
I’m pretty sure a glass cannon Thief will out-dps a glass cannon Warrior any day of the week.
Not true, Glass Cannon Warriors do almost double the damage a glass cannon thief does.
However with the changes, neither can survive melee combat anyways less your talking about pvp.
AOE maybe. Single target, no way. I do waaaaaaay more damage on my thief.