Guild Wars 2

Well, I for one, hope everyone remembers our fun and insightful little discussion with the developer concerning the shortfalls with Rangers. I hope we all remember it fondly.

For some reason, truly unknown to me, I’ve yet to encounter this transitional episodic version of WvW that let’s me stop and change my pets out (other than between the basic two) to suit whatever situation I’m in and optimally prepare for the next phase.

My experience is that WvW is much more fluid. It can go from soloing, to small group, to zerg, to keep/tower dynamics in a few seconds and I lack the prescience to know when that’s going to happen.

Well, at least now I know what I’ve been doing wrong.

Paken Kai.5970:

Since you are clearly not going to be swayed by my explanation of the situation as I can see it, I’m not going to bother trying to change your mind. I will however dignify your questions with a response, because they deserve answers as best as I can and others may be able to see things differently.

What I took issue with was your attempt to “have your cake and eat it too”. In other words, use programming limitations (or other “in-genre” explantions) to explain away something that both of us know is not the LIMFAC in pet behavior (because pets do routinely path through solid objects where no path exists and they do “magically” teleport). So, reality is that it’s the way it is for NO reason other than ArenaNet flipped a switch and made Guard no longer work as it used to. And it’s there, that decision, that I disagree with. And it is a decision, not a programming limitation (other than perhaps programming resource allocation).

It’s a poorly thought out fix to one specific problem. It takes without giving and without consideration of consequence (in this case, the consequence is that we’re even less effective in keep and tower defense). It’s like a surgeon removing a splinter by amputation. Yeah, the splinter’s gone, but it was a kitten stupid decision.

Gorefiend.9675:

Faux Sheaux.6179:

Pedra might be referring to just a group we had running around at some odd hour… or maybe one of our groups during a raid after we split up into smaller ones.

I thought he was saying there was an identical GH on another server?

Yes, I was. I’m on Anvil Rock and the last two nights, I’ve seen that exact guild tag running around in the BLs.

Paken Kai.5970:

Your pet is not magical in any way. It does not have access to a mesmer portal, nor can it shodowstep like a skelk.

If I were to use “Guard” to position my pet outside an enemy keep and I then run inside the keep before his “stay put” timer expires and the enemy repairs the door after I’ve run in, what innate non-magical ability is my pet using to get to me? He will, you know.

When I get too far from him in any scenario and he instantly appears at my side, what non-magical ability did he use to accomplish that?

I’m fascinated.

P.S.: Referencing your comment concerning fixing Guard to the way it was intended. So, in your estimation, a Ranger is so overpowered that ArenaNet decided that when in Keep Defense, a Ranger’s damage output should be reduced by approximately 40%-50%?

Paken Kai.5970:

If you know how to program an AI to path down a cliff, and still avoid damage, then I understand how you can see it as “lazy programming.” But, with the limitations of the AI (not understanding that a path down a cliff is acceptable, if not ideal), there’s not much that can be done to make pets leap off a cliff.

But, there’s this magical ability called Guard that used to work and now doesn’t. It let pets “leap” off walls without damage before. The pet didn’t have to “find a path” through an open gate; it has changed. Why?

I get that they desired to change the outside in scenario, I don’t get the inside out change. That makes no sense.

Gorefiend.9675:

Hate to burst your bubble, but Devonas is slated to stay in t5 for another week atm.

Our 5 man ran into a Grindhouse Gaming [GH] roamer group several times the last couple of nights. I forget which server they were (either DH or IOJ). Are those guys in your guild? Are they representative of what we can expect from GH when we hit Tier 5?

Paken Kai.5970:

Pedra.4381:

I appreciate your input, but I don’t want to get hung up over symantics. I don’t care if the pet leaps off the wall, teleports off the wall, or gets beamed down by the Enterprise. What is the in-game rationale for the pet not being able to attack a target on the ground that is outside a tower or keep?

Probably the fact that right now, the pet can’t go where it can’t path to. And, unless there’s a hole in the wall, pets can’t path out of the tower/keep.

Thanks. I’m sure you’re right but to me, that just smacks of really lazy programming and a lack of concern about outcomes.

Paken Kai.5970:

Pedra.4381:

How about the part concerning pets not being able to leap off walls? We can do it and if we do the pet leaps too. But, it can’t do that independently? This is the biggest issue I have with ArenaNet communication. I understand that they can’t go into a lot of detail about “upcoming changes” (see the Jon Peters thread) but there is NO reason they shouldn’t be able to explain changes already made, especially as it concerns nerfs that make zero sense to those that play the class.

I don’t think the pets actually leap off the wall with you, it’s more like they get too far away and then teleport to your location, like they do if they get hung up normally.

If there was a way to make pets leap off cliffs with you, then people wouldn’t be calling for the perma-stow functionality nearly as much because pets would actually be following you down instead of pathing through the group of hostiles you’re trying to avoid.

edit – typo

I appreciate your input, but I don’t want to get hung up over symantics. I don’t care if the pet leaps off the wall, teleports off the wall, or gets beamed down by the Enterprise. What is the in-game rationale for the pet not being able to attack a target on the ground that is outside a tower or keep?

Daemon Hawk.9406:

Bird in the game don’t really fly; they “walk” on invisible stilts, for the purpose of determining where they can and cannot get to. If your other pets are blocked by a fence, your bird is too. Flying is just an animation, but it’s still earthbound. Drives me bananas, but GW1 was the same.

So you’re saying a programming technique explains it all? Hmmm, ok.

How about the part concerning pets not being able to leap off walls? We can do it and if we do the pet leaps too. But, it can’t do that independently? This is the biggest issue I have with ArenaNet communication. I understand that they can’t go into a lot of detail about “upcoming changes” (see the Jon Peters thread) but there is NO reason they shouldn’t be able to explain changes already made, especially as it concerns nerfs that make zero sense to those that play the class.

Here’s a question I have. I get it (sort of) that we shouldn’t be able to use Guard to put our pets on walls (although a bird would certainly not have that issue). But, why is it that if we’re on the wall, we can’t put our pets on the ground to attack our targets outside the keep? That makes absolutely no sense and greatly reduces our usefulness in tower or keep defense. How did that make it through “balance” testing?

When I did it several months ago, the only way to get to that one POI in Fort Trinity was through the personal story but I thought they had fixed that. Maybe not. In any event, you require ALL POIs (both world and WvW, including those in the Mysts area) to get 100% World Completion. You do not require dungeon POIs.

Chopps.5047:

Ryan.8367:

“Read that link carefully, slowly, he says ANET working on pets is nothing new and has been going on for a while after launch. I thought that’s what you were looking for? The original discussion we had was in reference to two rangers using pets to tank bosses, recall?”

Why should every other area of the game get ignored because it’s speculated that 2 ranger pets can take a boss in pve?

Ryan, this discussion between Petra and myself has been ongoing for a week now. What you are saying isn’t relevant. Petra asked me for a dev post showing they are aware of problems with pets and working on it. I gave that link which said just that. Regarding that specific example, that was one thing the dev brought up that he recalled from internal discussions and it’s certainly not the only thing ANET is working on.

Petra is a beautiful place in Jordan (think Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade). Pedra is Portugese.

I answered you but I was bad. Since I can’t really think of a good way to respond that isn’t naughty, I’ll just remain silent on this subject and continue to search for evidence.

Bailey.6892:

I would think if they need to change it anet should code it properly to change every where, may be harder to do but they are the ones saying change your name least they could do is code it properly.

I think it’s potetic justice.

Angelwood.7652:

Haha uhm this probably be a forum joke and I’m making myself incredibly ridiculous by asking but who or what is Panzer? :P

The resident savant when it comes to all things Efut.

The fact that he didn’t answer this instantly may be indicative of his finally being institutionalized after “losing it” for not being able to materialize Efut in real life.

Lord Oubliette.8014:

I can’t even get past the first stage, all die within seconds of the nobles appearing then I have no chance. Can this be sorted please as I cannot progress.

But, it all worked so wonderfully on paper and in “lab” testing.

Godfather.8217:

SOS is having a great time in wvw, good fun fights. My crew appreciate the challenges.

For everyone’s entertainment, attached is Episode 3 of the comic strip line up.

Enjoy,

That was me and one of my guild mates yelling for help at SM while a certain unnamed Commander held his zerg to defend a guard point. I can tell you one thing, no one took it from him. Was a bit frustrating but also funny as kitten.

Pedra, Ranger on Anvil Rock

Myro Pyro.1749:

Also, this is what happens when you follow a commander off a cliff

I think we’ve all been there and done that!

Geotherma.2395

Everyone walks around with 36,400 gold nowadays duh.

Everyone wouldn’t need to.

Mr. Smith, thanks for the chart.

Vol.5241:

You really think two guys have the time to spam 140,000 globs on the outpost? At a fixed price?

Hmm, no I don’t really think that. But, it’s process that’s being discussed. I could make an argument that if BOTers can make programs that allow them to farm invisibly and ArenaNet hasn’t been able to stop it, this task would seem minor in comparison.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

John Smith.4610:

24 hours, >150,000 ectos, > 9500 unique sellers.

Game. Set. Match.

We love you John!!!

It’s only game, set, match if the final data is provided that substantiates that the control of ectos is not controlled by a small minority, i.e., 2 guys could have traded 140k of those ectos with the remaining 10k being squabbled over by the 9498.

Stats can be used to prove or disprove anything (often the same thing). It’s all in how you present it. Not saying that’s the case here, but just saying.

Durzlla.6295:

Just because there’s a red bar on the skill doesn’t mean you won’t still hit the target, it just prevents auto attack from going.

And want a helpful tip? Shoot as they’re changing direction, it’ll hit them before they change again.

I just want to verify that I fully understand your position so I’m summarizing it. Your position is that using the LB you can hit moving targets at 2k and not miss? Am I correct?

I must admit my confusion. I took this bookah’s request to mean exactly what he stated. He desires to be in our collages. I, for one, have no reservations in that regard. In my experience, Slyvari plant material makes excellent pigments of varying shades and textures.

capuchinseven.8395

NOT totally sure you know what qq means. Just so you’re clear, me telling people they are embarrassing themselves is not qqing.

But, my question to you Capuchinseven, is do you realize you’re arguing with Jon Peters? I can’t speak for everyone here, but my issue is that he (Jon Peters an ArenaNet developer) stated that he considers Rangers to be the most in need of improvement and since saying that, ArenaNet has done nothing that would have changed that status. In fact, they’ve nerfed Rangers more whilst buffing other classes (which in theory should have made us even more in need of improvement).

So, if you have an argument with claims that Rangers need fixes, sort it out with Peters. Once you do that, then feel free to come back here and tell people to stop QQ’ing.

kthnxbye

Chopps.5047.

Keep in mind that just because they ran out of time in this talk doesn’t mean they aren’t working on it. Ranger pet mechanics is a complicated, difficult issue and it’s just fine that it isn’t always discussed.

Everyone: relax!

Given your “scientific background” and your familiarity with peer review, then you must understand the need for empirical evidence. If your claims are true.

That’s a long way of saying, “I’m still waiting for my link, Bro”. Show me where ArenaNet is both aware and working on the numerous issues faced by Rangers.

Geshque.1326:

Guys better concentrate on something realy important rather than discussing paw colors. I think that is not the main thing devs must do in order to revive our abandoned class.

Color coordination is srs bsns.

What self-respecting Ranger would want to go out with his/her pet clashing with their Quaggan or Charr backpack? This is win-win for ArenaNet. We get our pets “fixed” and they get to take credit for a color buff to Rangers.

Hillaan.6904:

At this point everyone is at their mercy, we really have no choice but to wait. I for one don’t mind waiting the problem is that it has been 6 months and still going for anyone who started from the beginning. The only thing you can do is come here and let them know your displeasure, wait for them to do something or simply walk away and quit playing. The funny part is in this game because of the business model they use, walking away does not have much of an impact since there is no monthly fee. Not everyone buys gems, I happen to but many or most don’t.

I could be dead wrong, but I don’t think GW2 is sustainable on income from initial purchase only. There has to be sustainment income (i.e., gem purchases in the store). I’ve bought gems and I suspect the number of people who do is far larger than either of us think. I say I’ve bought gems, I’ve no intent to ever buy another until ArenaNet addresses my concerns in regards to the Ranger.

Solid Gold.9310:

We “waited to see” before, and what did we get, a smack in the face.

I am acutely aware of this but I also believe that it costs us nothing to give ArenaNet a final chance before throwing in the towel. If, after the next update, there are still no fixes for Rangers (the class deemed most in need of improvement by Mr. Peters) and there is still not even a hint of where they are going with the Ranger, then it’s “game on”, and at that point, I think they’ll have not a shred of integrity remaining. So, if people start to walk after that, it’s wholly ArenaNet’s fault.

Wayfinder.8452:

This thread is hardly any real damage control, whoever made that up has a very vague idea about the principles of dc at best.

I believe if you reread the applicable posts, you’ll find that happens to be Mr. Hrouda. He first made use of the term “damage control”.

I said his main purpose here was to serve as a relief valve and an outlet for player frustration (and in that sense it clearly worked). Those are not synonymous with “damage control”, however.

Chopps.5047

He just brought up the two ranger boss example as one test case…don’t freak out over that example. Clearly, the development team is working this issue and is intimately familiar with what people have done with the professions—what bosses they’ve solo’d and how. There isn’t some conspiracy to kitten ranger. Robert was just giving an example of something they talked about in a meeting. I don’t know if you’ve ever worked in an office like that but tons of ideas get tossed around in meetings.

Well, Mr. Chopps, unless you work at ArenaNet your opinion is no more likely or insightful than mine.

So with that said, my opinion is that the “development team” does a bunch of mathmatically intensive similations, sees that Rangers perform great “in the lab” and resist further change or fixes.

Please cite though, if you will, where it’s clear that the development team is working this issue. A link will do nicely.

Prysin.8542:

may i remind you, that we have yet to see if Robert has “failed” us or not…

I whole heartedly support this. We should “wait and see”. But, personally, I’m not going to place any wagers in Vegas on Rangers getting the fixes we need.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Eh, that’s a very simplistic view of things.

Software design is iterative. Just because they don’t have a solution that works, doesn’t mean they haven’t had their nose to grindstone all this time. There’s also a frustrating menagerie of ‘hurry up and wait’ and ‘too many cooks’ to contend with, that means getting all hands on deck and banging it out faster just isn’t much of an option.

I mean, I understand where you’re coming from.
I’m squirming in impatience too.

Ok, not sure I agree with you, but for sake of discussion, ok.

What would be really valuble to this community then would be a list of everything they’ve discussed in these numerous balance meetings (at it regards Rangers) and the logical explanations that apparently have prevented the fixes. I think we’re reasonble people (most of us) and if they’ve been trying (and failing) tell us that and share with us the hurdles to be overcome. Who knows, maybe someone that plays the Ranger in the real world might be able to offer some helpful suggestions.

capuchinseven.8395:

Pedra.4381:

neverborne.4736:

For a team as talented at yours, who created such a wonderful game, I have to believe that if ranger pet fixes were a top priority, they’d be completed very quickly.

I think it’s been conclusively proven that Rangers are not a priority.

Not really sure how that is conclusive evidence of anything other than ANet are not good communicators.

Succiently stated, if something is a priority, then it takes center stage over those things that are not.

Since we received none of the promised fixes while other classes have received fixes (and buffs), and Mr. Peter’s has been non-existent in this forum while very active in others, it’s conclusive: Rangers are not a priority for ArenaNet.

neverborne.4736:

For a team as talented at yours, who created such a wonderful game, I have to believe that if ranger pet fixes were a top priority, they’d be completed very quickly.

I think it’s been conclusively proven that Rangers are not a priority. Most in need does not equate to interest.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Are-Rangers-a-Priority-No/first#post1571153

And all Mr. Hrouda has promised is that he’ll ensure Ranger pets are discussed in balance meetings, but he has also told us that Ranger pets have been discussed many times before. Therefore, we can conclude that discussion does not equal intent to fix.

The main and major purpose of Mr. Hrouda’s involvement on this forum has been to relieve pressure and provide an outlet for player frustration. Sadly, nothing more.

Bas.7406:

It looks like we are closing in on a start date for the Ranger Focused Podcast. We still are coming up with a name like Necro’s But of Corpse, but we have a few possible hosts, and are working on lining up some guests.

Hopefully we can launch it with the Mesmer and Guardian Focused Podcasts on the first week of April. All feedback is appreciated.

Ranger should most definitely be on April 1st.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

We talk about anything pertaining to game balance. Yes pets have been brought up before many times.

When I think about our current state, I feel much better now concerning the future of pets.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Pet ai isnt an issue for me. People get upset when they do see what they want in a patch. Alot of you just want ranger to be OP or just dont think your solutions through.

JonPeters.5630:

I do still believe ranger is the profession in most need of improvement after this patch and we will continue to make those improvements.
Jon

Serraphin, please have your Rangers are fine discussion with Mr. Peters. You can find him on the SPvP or Mesmer forums.

Jeraziah.3809:

Just let them do their job, and post your suggestions/ideas. Your not helping the game like this.

History is replete with examples of why this isn’t true. Sticking your head in the sand for the purpose of appeasement has never worked, it never will.

As I’ve said several times on these forums, I didn’t start where I am on this subject, I was led here…I was led here by a failure to communicate and a whole lot of mis-information.

Has Chrono fallen into shadow?

Asthalon.6875:

In all honesty, what did you hope to achieve by posting this thread that is basically a rehash of thousands of (unanswered) posts before it?

Clarity.

Asthalon.6875:

Thousands of “WTF where’s my promised fix” posts does not create an incentive for open communication.

In this instance, Asthalon, what do you think came first? The chicken or the egg?

Asthalon.6875:

Most of us cannot answer Yes to that question (I can’t). Kwitcherkittenin. Let the nice people who know how to do it take the time to do it properly.

You make some valid points but this isn’t one of them. Since we were told that Rangers are most in need of improvement, nearly 1/3 of a year has passed with multiple updates, other classes getting buffs, us getting nerfs, and this forum shrouded in silence. If we accept that then we never get anywhere. You can’t accept being put in a hole and covered up.

I’ve purposely avoided posting these comments in Mr. Hrouda’s thread as I think doing so would be inappropriate. Asking that these questions be addressed though is not.

P.S.: This focus on pets discussion, when you consider the Ranger as a whole, is a bit of sleight of hand on the part of ArenaNet. Well played though.

Petrol.9086:

Maby they don’t really know what they want the ranger to be, or they’re just having trouble sorting out the pet scripting/ai/whatever.

If this is indeed true, then we’re really kittened.

Personally, I’m not ready to concede that but there are some definite contradictions out there that I would like explained. The longer we go without those explanations though, the closer I get to to thinking they might not know how to fix it or if they want to.

I do think we’re being punished for the BOT epidemic and ArenaNet is taking the easy way out to combat it.

I have all the official ArenaNet quotes to validate my statements here but for various reasons, I’ll hold them in abeyance for the moment.

1) We’ve been told that Rangers are the class “most in need of improvement”. Since then we’ve heard nothing else from that individual and we’ve argurably seen additional nerfs.

2) We’ve been told that part of the problem with fixing Ranger pets is that it’s bad design if two Rangers could team up to kill end game bosses. Yet, we all know there are classes in the game that regularly solo end bosses. That sets off huge alarms in the common sense department and when that happens, there’s something wrong with the statement.

3) With statement two as the background, a certain designer that mains a Ranger believes that he can solo Lupicus (not yet done but seems confident he can do it). This same individual attends game balance meetings and represents Rangers there due to his knowledge of the class. If two Rangers duoing bosses is a problem and this gentleman already believes he can do it solo…then we’re faced with another problem that sets off alarm bells.

Until these diverging views are explained and/or someone explains to us the future of the Ranger, I’m going to remain both skeptical and confused. It’s clarity I seek, not platitudes.

I welcome any insights.

Well, given that you can get to all the cities for free, yes, I would start there. It’s weird that the mouse hover is reporting everything complete.

The most difficult for me was the Black Citadel. I completed 100% world in WvW but it didn’t complete until I returned to Chantry of Secrets (eventhough I had already done it both via story mode and in regular way).

When I was completing maps, I think I had to do the Slyvari instance POI again too, eventhough I had done it via story mode.

Do you have that hidden one in Black Citadel? The one in the instance. With the changes to the maps, I don’t think you have to actually travel around to each map any more. You can highlight the name of each map on the world map and it will tell you what you are missing.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

We tried giving them reduced damage from AOE/attacks, and it opened up other problems – mainly that a team of 2 rangers could take on almost any boss in a dungeon by smart swapping of pets and letting the pet take aggro.

Rob, I would like to join others here to say thanks for responding in the Ranger Forum. While some here (including me) may not like the answers we get, at least they are answers.

I have a question about your concern that two rangers could team up to take down end game bosses.

Why should two rangers (with two pets) not be able to accomplish what one exceptional solo warrior or one exceptional solo thief can do? Without explanation that seems to be a significant discrepancy in ArenaNet’s view of the game.

Fiontar.4695:

I see a trend here.

Stop holding back the rest of the game and eroding it’s very foundation due to an obsession over what a top 1% player might be able to accomplish in a dungeon that you’ve decided that no one, ever, should be able to accomplish alone or in a duo.

But, they so enjoy that approach. I could list several examples, but for the sake of brevity I’ll reference one only. The Lifetime Survivor Achievement (or whatever it’s called). There’s an exchange on the forums where one of the developers explains why they coded it so that if you change maps you must start over. He states that it’s a fix to prevent players from cheating death and also a fix to an exploit where a crafty player could use a personal story mode instance waypoint to cheat and achieve it. How many people would do that? Probably less than your 1% reference, yet they used that to create a system that inconveniences everyone (designing to that 1%).

The real funny thing. It was all for naught. You can achieve it with crafting. That’s real survival.

Sina.9208:

Well he knows dungeon mechanics the way no player does. With exact timers, unnoticeable boss emotes and everything, even so I’d like to see how he does it. It would be fun to see him playing that melee ranger of his in 40+ fractals, while not only not dying, but keeping the beast alive.

We find ourselves in violent agreement.