Guild Wars 2

You’re lecturing people on how to avoid getting knocked off the map, when nobody here is saying they don’t know how to avoid getting knocked of the map. They are saying they don’t enjoy playing a map oriented around either knocking people off the map or avoiding same.

The same goes for the ridiculously overpowered “if you control this one thing you win the game because you can spam-destroy any and all capture points” hammer. I want to play against other players, not have them nuke me by remote-control, or have me do it to them.

Candar.8140:

However, you are in danger of sounding like a scrub.

So your response to the people who say they don’t like the style of the map because of how much the ledges/hammer impact gameplay is to insult them all with generic “l2p nub” nonsense.

Hint: I think this may be why some are accusing you of being a troll. You aren’t actually engaging people who disagree with you and making an effort to understand their objections. You’re just being obnoxious.

Candar.8140:

I only ever make truthful assertions, believe what you may, it doesn’t change my mind or position.

Anyone else here routinely play a full Skyhammer match and have nobody fall off the map?

Candar.8140:

Ok, you’re point is simply illogical…In every single map in the game, you will find that the map plays a vital role in all engagements!!! Why should Skyhammer be any different?

It shouldn’t be any different. That’s the problem: it is. The environment has far more of an impact on Skyhammer than any other map. The result is that the game becomes more about who matches up best with holding the hammer and very little about actual PvP.

Brew Pinch: If an overwhelming percentage of my customers thought poorly of my product, personally, “satisfaction” is not the emotion I’d be left with.

Candar.8140:

But are you missing the point?!!! I think you are…Learn to adapt, that’s all!

No, actually, you are missing the point. Several people have already replied to you directly: we want to play against other players — not the map.

It’s like I have a group of people who play poker regularly and one day we show up and the host says “today, instead of poker, we will all play Scrabble!” I can “adapt” and play Scrabble, certainly, but guess what? I want to play poker, that’s why I went there in the first place.

Candar.8140:

I have just finished playing and won Skyhammer a few moments ago, and I can tell you that nobody fell into the abyss.

I flat out do not believe you. I have literally never played a full match of Skyhammer without multiple people falling off the map.

Heh. I never even thought about that, but it makes sense.

Sorry I was thinking of the more recent Chaos Storm bug where multiple dazes were proc’cing. They did not fix that quickly.

Malchior.5042:

All professions have stability access and a stunbreaker. This is just pure ignorance.

The actual “pure ignorance” is pretending there aren’t MASSIVE differences in the number, duration and ease of use of stability and stunbreakers across professions.

UnknownFreak.2805:

Remember the chaos storm bug… 18k-60k hits, that was gamebreaking and they fixed that quite fast. But now when our illusions are totally useless against anyone that is using stealth, totally normal…

It took weeks until that was fixed. Just sayin’.

Well, Arenanet showed how much they take into account the anti-Skyhammer feedback by creating a new WvW map that’s basically an overgrown Skyhammer hotjoin.

I’ll use the same analogy I used in my post there: PvP is like two teams of martial artists sparring to see who can beat the other — Skyhammer is like two teams of martial artists trying to see who can throw each other down a flight of stairs. There may be strategy and skill involved in both cases, but the latter is not what I (nor most people) are looking for in a game like this one.

Pyroatheist.9031:

I run with the disenchanter as one of my utilities. Between that and the traited torch, I never have issues with conditions.

I use it now in PvP. In WvW it dies almost instantly and I usually need other utilities in those slots anyway.

Even in PvP it’s not nearly enough to keep up with a good necro, and in WvW necros are beasts because of all the extra stats.

I guess it’s an offense/defense choice, but I find the -40% food makes a big difference, I actually notice when it wears off. (Well, I use -36% because I’m cheap. )

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Every single profession has easy access to stun breakers. Every class has at least a moderate amount of stability.

I find your argument misleading.

I have the ability to run, and an Olympic athlete has the ability to run, therefore we’re equivalent. Right?

My two main characters are engineer and mesmer. Neither has access to more than a token amount of stability, not nearly enough to be of much use on this map compared to other classes.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

But most importantly:

Every class makes the choice to stand near a cliff.

Well, I’m going to make the choice to stand on a different map.

Because when I go into WvW it’s for three main reasons: to have fun with guildies, to test my mettle in PvP combat, and to fight for my server. And EotM doesn’t tick either of the latter two boxes. It helps my world a little bit, but not as much as I could in any unqueued map. And combat too often becomes not like two martial artists sparring, but like two martial artists each trying to throw the other down a flight of stairs.

It’s likely my guildies will come to the same conclusion and that will be that.

If people enjoy it, fine, but I think it’s disappointing that given the endless complaints from people about Skyhammer in the PvP area that they basically made a WvW Skyhammer. You’re going to have people here on reset night, and I’m sure from the tier 1 servers, and otherwise it’s going to be barren except for a small number of people who like the map for its own sake.

Once again, the shame is such a beautiful map with so much potential ruined by poor attention to “real world” gameplay dynamics.

The point is for hardcore WvW junkies to have something to do while queued for the main event. Some players will also prefer the dynamics over regular WvW.

Personally, the novelty wore off after a couple of hours. I spent pretty much all my time trying not to fall off the map, or running back from spawn points. Neither of those things are particularly fun, and neither are way I feel drawn to WvW. It was still enjoyable because it was new and we were running in a guild group, but my guess is that this map will be mostly vacant soon, and it won’t even take two weeks.

Actually I always see a ton of mesmers in PvP matches.

Personally, mesmer was my first char and will always be my “first love” to a certain extent.. but I’m having a hard time going back to it in either PvP or WvW since I started playing engi.

I actually started with Blackwater way back, but had no experience in Pking at all and was so awful in WvW I never gave it a fair shot. I went away from it in PvP and got used to a more hybrid build, but am now thinking of going back to it.

I already have most of the gear.. but I really don’t think I can give up my traveler’s runes, they just make such a huge difference. I assume I can still be fairly effective without perplexity even if I won’t be quite as good….?

Of course, I don’t run mesmer as much any more in general since I fell in love with engi. :/

Interesting that you run +condi food, I usually run -condi food to help against all the condition spammers out there … since mesmers don’t have a ton of condition removal. You don’t find you have issues with that?

Just spent a couple of hours there with guildies. Wanted to give more feedback than in my other thread (which I should have waited on before posting, sorry.)

First, the map is huge and gorgeous. Really nicely designed, beautiful to look at. Great NPCs and areas, and fun to run around. If I were a WvW junkie I’d infinitely prefer this over sitting around in a queue, that’s for sure!

In terms of gameplay, I was jokingly calling it a “Skyhammer hotjoin on steroids”. People come and go, and you run around killing them, and there are zillions of places to fall or get knocked off.

I don’t think this is necessarily a bad design, but I think it’s going to frustrate the same sorts of players who hate Skyhammer, and they’ll avoid it. The complaints about that map are valid IMO because of the great differences between in the ability to knock/pull and the ability to gain stability among classes.

But the biggest problem I found was that there are not enough waypoints. This is never going to be a serious “get organized” type of map, for the same reason a hotjoin is rarely a serious match – too many people who don’t know each other coming and going. So why do I have to spend over a minute navigating walkways and narrow paths to get back to the action? Make it easier for people to get back into the fight, and it will be more fun.

Also, we traversed a good chunk of the map and I never saw a single aetherblade anywhere.

Cool map, but all those walkways and platforms are going to get old quickly and for the same reasons.

The lack of waypoints also makes for a LOT of boring run time every time you die.

Would I play it? Probably. But it would give me a major incentive to try out the competition, such as the new game coming in April. Right now, their subscription fee versus GW2’s lack of same means I am not very tempted.

“Degrading yourself?” Give me a break.

Anyway, you might have success with this, but it’s got a considerable skill curve: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/first

Hey Natsu,

I saw you on Faith Blackwater running around WvW the other day. Got to explain to a guildie of mine why you were “famous” as he knew about the build you pioneered but not where it got its name.

I don’t run a build exactly like yours because I wanted something more offensive, but I’m tempted to try it. Only as much as I know how OP perplexity is, I just cannot see how I can give up my Traveler’s runes… sigh, they need to give us better swiftness options.

Essence Snow.3194:

Not much for my tastes, but perfect for the 14yr old gals or those that want to be 14yr old gals out there.

I’m well above that, and I never thought I’d even consider buying a finisher .. because, who cares? .. but that’s so flippin’ hilarious that I’d be tempted.

This thread is why the matchups forum was closed.

Carpboy.7145:

Power one is much more offensive, not really any cons

Of course there are cons: it’s less *de*fensive. There are always tradeoffs.

Even though I find them incredibly boring myself, the easiest ways to get gold are the Queensdale champ train and dungeons. You can get enough to fully gear yourself with rare items in just a couple of hours. And that’s even if you don’t get lucky drops.

For players still figuring out builds I strongly recommend yellow (rare) gear. Why? If you are patient you can get the gear you need, and then if you decide to change stats or upgrade to exotic, salvage it and get as much $ in ectoplasms out of it as you spent originally. And the stats are fairly close to exotics, not the same but a lot better than blues with no real net extra cost.

In a word, no. Sorry.

Honestly, after trying a number of support builds myself, I’ve never found one that really played the role well. And having now tried a few other professions, I just don’t really think it’s a good fit for mesmer on the whole.

You can do it, but not as well as other classes, and at a much higher cost to your effectiveness than other classes. Mesmers just aren’t really built for it.

This build looks solid enough, but what’s it really providing by way of support? A few random boons every 45 seconds is nice, but it’s just a bit of an extra benefit to a group, not true support.

If you want to do support, you need to at least build around the few things mesmers do have to help a group, like healing mantras, AoE condition clears, and so forth. And consider using group utility runes as well, such as altruism.

Thanks. Yeah figured Scarlet’s would be the best, though of course, that’s not an option for the little purses.

Anyone know if there’s much difference in terms of what you get from the various chests? I’ve got a big pile of “spare keys” to use and wondering what to use them on.

It does seem like some regular mob drops are rarer than others so I wondered if some chests also had more rare goodies.

As an aside, opening up a pile of those key pouches sure takes a while…

Mikklesnickles.2635:

Stop giving arenanet crap for making something difficult. It’s not on them if you’re bad at the game.

“Crap”? No. Valid criticism and feedback? To whatever extent the forum’s TOS allow me.

It’s “on them” when 90 people can be good at the game and fail the event over and over because 10 people are not. And the reason it is “on them” is because there will always be a few people who are not good when you make an event that draws from the open world and where there’s no control over who participates.

This event is inherently designed to fail except under near-ideal circumstances. And only Arenanet can change that.

Josh, just to reiterate, please make sure future events directly deal with the ability gating issue.

In the marionette you have created an event where 90 smart, skilled and hard-working players can be thwarted most of the time by 10 who are not good at the game, don’t care to put forth an effort, or even deliberately want the event to fail. In fact, I can think of a way for the marionette to be nearly impossible to suceed if even 5 people want to sabotage it.

PLEASE, if you are going to make open world content that requires 100 or more players, do not design them so that they live or die based on the behavior and abilities of the bottom quartile of participants. It is leading to extreme frustration and setting people against each other.

Juunro.7082:

Alternatively, your position can be read as: “This content doesn’t coddle the least skilled elements of the playerbase, therefor it is poorly designed. Everyone ought to be able to do it with no effort whatsoever.”

Bullkitten.

The problem isn’t “coddling the least skilled elements”. The problem is that the gate to success goes through those least skilled elements.

You can have 90 people who are skilled, eager and willing to do their best, and 10 people who are clueless, careless or even malicious can cause those 90 to fail. That is a recipe for the exact sort of frustration and acrimony that this event has generated throughout GW2.

Juunro.7082:

And our position can be read as: “This content requires a modicum or ability to know and play your class and further, requires the players involved to be able to use some of the most basic skills involved with any MMO: eg, reading and using basic mechanics.”

It doesn’t matter how skilled or knowledgeable I am. Because I can lead my platform to success and still have the event failed, since dozens of other platforms with people who have no obligation to listen to me, also have to succeed, and only a handful need to fail to derail the entire thing.

Juunro.7082:

People aren’t really all that angry at the failure, they are angry at the total lack of investment of effort on behalf of those who fail.

That anger and $3 will get you an overpriced coffee at Starbucks.

I don’t care what people are angry about, I care about avoiding situations that make people angry. There is nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, that you or I or anyone else can do that will make someone who doesn’t care about playing well and putting forth a solid effort suddenly decide to play well and put forth a solid effort. The events need to be designed so that this small minority of people doesn’t ruin it for everyone else. And that can only be accomplished by making events that aren’t dictated by the least common denominator, as this one is.

Ray.6149:

I agree with almost all OP points.
I think Marionette has just the right scale, balance and mix of mechanics for open world bosses.

Yes, “just the right scale”, which is why unless you’re in TTS or you hang out in a big server’s LP main all day, you fail the event 90% of the time.

It doesn’t matter why it fails. It fails. Nearly all the time. Even if it fails because players are this or that, I can’t change how players are, and neither can Arenanet. The only thing that can be practically changed is the content. Players who “aren’t good” will not improve by being put in a position where they fail all the time. Anyone who is a parent understands you do not expand the horizons of someone learning by frustrating them, all you do is turn them off.

My position summarized: “Most players are in failing events most of the time. This means there’s something wrong with the event, assuming the goal of this GAME is to have fun rather than feel frustrated all the time. Arenanet can resolve this by better tailoring their content to actual players and their actual abilities.”

Your position: “I personally find the content easy so there’s nothing wrong with it, the problem is the players stink. I don’t care if they feel frustrated and aren’t having fun, and I have no practical solutions to allow them to have fun, because it’s their fault for stinking.”

Which of these positions is more rational is left as an exercise for the reader.

Pexx.6327:

That argument works both ways. What you and others don’t seem to get is that we, and A.net, have no control what other players do.

That’s what I just said. They can’t control the players, but they can control the content. There’s a mismatch here and that means the problem is with the content.

Pexx.6327:

A.net designed the content. The content is fine the way it is (barring bugs).

This is a meaningless statement. Any content can be “fine” if it is properly matched to its intended audience and supported by functional gameplay mechanics, especially relating to grouping. This one falls short.

Pexx.6327:

It’s completable, and has been completed by every server. Just because people are not wanting to join in and work towards continuing the content, or people are not putting the effort to get better at the game, doesn’t mean you have to complain to the devs that those people aren’t putting the effort to it.

I never made any such complaint, so I really wonder why you appear to be quoting me but responding to someone else.

I mostly see people making a real effort, often to the point of becoming exasperated. The content is not properly balanced for the casual playerbase at which it is aimed, and that’s a problem Arenanet — and Arenanet only — can and should fix next time around.

Pexx.6327:

Then, in the end, people complain because A.net designs easy content that can be completed by everyone, their mother, their dog and their unborn children. Complain about it being too easy, and then they design content that is (not even that) moderately challenging, and people get mad because they can’t do it because XXX reason.

Your claim that it is “not even that moderately challenging” is categorically false. You personally may find it easy to win a platform but the design means that an overwhelming percentage of others also have to win platforms, and that’s not what is happening. I can’t remember the last time I failed on a platform personally, but I am currently somewhere around 1 for 20 on overflow runs. Most other people I know have similar experiences.

So, sorry but you are simply, flatly wrong. An event that fails most of the time cannot rationally be described as “not even moderately challenging”. Players are not going to become dramatically better at this if they haven’t after a week, and they haven’t. It’s mistuned, and it should be fixed.

Pexx.6327:

Again, this is a player issue, not a developer issue. Just because more people are on the highly populated servers doesn’t mean that players are not to blame. The players who constantly leave and guest to be on those servers are who you should be talking to.

What you and others don’t seem to get is that we, and Arenanet, have no control over what other players do. Only over how the game works.

This event is a problem because it doesn’t fit well with the way the average GW2 player plays. That can be fixed, which is why it should be addressed. The other stuff cannot, so it boils down to pointless griping.

Anet says they want constructive feedback, and the most constructive way to deal with these issues is to design events that work well with players as they are, not with players as you or others wish they were.

Excellent………….

Chris RJ.1843:

Of course I would love if it were like a sports team. Are you good? Or are you willing to work hard to be good? Welcome to the team.

Are you kittenty? Are YOU entitled? Do you think you deserve anything for being a bad player who doesn’t help or care about the team? No spot for you on the team then.

But that’s the issue in a nutshell: we have an event that requires skill but is designed around average players.

The problem isn’t with the players. It’s with putting an event requiring skill and coordination in an open world area of a game not aimed at hardcore gamers.

It’s like selecting 5 random people off the street and complaining that they can’t beat an organized basketball team.

“Form ever follows function” — Louis Sullivan

Shinzan.2908:

There’s basically 3 ways to handle this kind of thing.

1 – let bad players ruin the event for everyone else – current situation, bad
2 – separate the good players from the bad players, ex. instanced content – would work but also would be against the spirit of GW2 in my opinion, so still bad
3 – let the good players carry the bad players, in this example this could be done by letting platforms that win their fight help out others, or by working with an acceptable margin of error, for example if only 3 platforms had to finish to sever the chain successfully. – what Anet should aim for going forward.

4 – do your best, try to help people, and accept that you’re going to fail most of the time unless you’re on a good server in a packed instance, because this event’s design guarantees that will happen.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

Qaelyn.7612:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

As a developer said in a past post, the overall community needs to up their game to complete bosses like these.

Actually there is no real reason why that needs to happen. It’s a completely arbitrary decision based on an arbitrary assumption, and flies in the face of the reason most GW2 players are here in the first place.

So even a tiny challenge such as Marionette is too much for the player base?

I can’t answer that question. I’m just saying that there’s no reason we “need” to work up to bosses like these. It’s fine if that’s what the devs want, but then they have to deal with the consequences.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

As a developer said in a past post, the overall community needs to up their game to complete bosses like these.

Actually there is no real reason why that needs to happen. It’s a completely arbitrary decision based on an arbitrary assumption, and flies in the face of the reason most GW2 players are here in the first place.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult. On the other hand, we don’t know how long it takes for the aggregate skill level of the player-base to grow. I don’t know how long it takes for information about traits and builds to disseminate to those who had previously never looked into them. As with all our content, we are closely watching and noting these things so that every future project can learn from it.

Well it’s been a week and I see no improvement in the success rate. If anything it’s getting lower as more people decide they’ve gotten their achievements or otherwise have had enough. Even on my server’s main instance we are averaging well below 50%. In the typical overflow successes are rare gems in a sea of sludge, 1/10 would be generous.

And while I appreciate the idea of “stretching” the community, Josh, I don’t think you guys have chosen a good way to do it. Anyone who’s a parent knows that you want your kids to expand their boundaries but to do it in a way that maximizes the chances of success. You don’t take a kid who doesn’t know how to swim and toss him into the deep end, because if you do you just increase the chance that he’ll never enter a swimming pool again. Many players feel like that’s what you’ve done here, and some will just avoid any similar events in the future.

You should be erring on the side of caution until you get the balance right, not setting up a situation where failure is far more common than success and people end up at each other’s throats over it. That’s not why I play GW2, and in fact, it’s one of the reasons I left my last MMO.

And if you really want to stretch players, that is accomplished through gradual progression with the help of tutorials. Not brute force.

Kageru.9124:

Here’s a hint for the hardcare (that will be ignored), most people who play GW2 don’t read the forum, they play a game to relax, gather some resources for crafting, explore a bit, earn some new skins to play dressups. They didn’t sign up for a raid game, and if they wanted one they’d be playing the dominant raid game (which is not this one). Their ego is not attached to their in-game skill so “working hard and failing often to get better” in a game is just a confusing misunderstanding of what games are for to them.
…
The sheer arrogance of “we’re training our players…” wow, what happened to you guys? The original GW2 design was a game about exploring, naturally wanting to jump into dynamic events that seque’d into stories. It was interesting and different. Trying to be another raiding MMO, which you will never win at, is a tragic misallocation of effort. Come up with a better solution, something that suits the original design and isn’t competing directly with all the other raid oriented MMO’s.

All of that too. Nicely said.

The devs need to decide what they want this game to be. It cannot be all things to all people, and if they really want to try to do that, at least keep the different types of players away from each other.

I won’t “demonize” the devs, but I will continue to reiterate what I’ve said since the start of this event: when you create a game that caters to casual players, and then put a much more difficult event in an open area with little or no instruction or training for how to complete it, what you get is the conflict and acrimony and bad will we see surrounding this event.

As much potential as the marionette fight has, it is ruined by being poorly tuned for the game in which it resides. If they want to get people used to more difficult content, it should be done gradually, not by throwing people into the deep end and then watching as the few who know best how to swim hurl insults at the ones who are drowning.

And the broken overflow system just makes it worse, because you end up with strangers from different servers who apparently feel more comfortable hurling abuse at people they don’t know.

At first I thought it was sad that this was temporary content. Now even though I enjoy doing it myself — since I now just accept an 80%+ failure rate and focus on getting code drops — I’m glad it’s going away in a few weeks. I hope something like it never returns until the problems are resolved.

Thanks, good to know.

Beware that unless it’s been fixed in a recent patch, Malicious Sorcery and Illusionists Celerity do not stack for the #2 block. You will only get an 8s CD.

Well, maybe we can duel sometime and you can demonstrate to me how useless my engi is… bearing in mind that I’ve only been playing it for a week.

I’m sorry but I can’t really take your opinions on engineers seriously after what you wrote in that forum earlier.

MrSilver.5269:

The engineer forum is full of people boasting about how unbelievably strong the profession is and that it can kill anything 1v1.

Just /ignore.

Not that I’ve seen.

I did however see a thread from you saying that engineers are the “worst profession”, the only justification for which you’ve even attempted to provide is that “zerg commanders don’t ask for engineers”. So I think you’re a little confused about whom is actually making what ridiculous claims.

My guess is that good engineers can kill pretty much anything 1v1 with the right build. Just as a good mesmer can. A fight between the two would likely come down to skill, and it’s also quite possible in PvP for a duel to stalemate.

Zoid.2568:

I’m glad i and a few others could be constructive at least, to prove you wrong.

To my knowledge, this is the only example of a tool you can buy in the gem store that lets you get more stuff per swing than the standard tools. I think that’s a bad idea; you can have a different opinion, but that doesn’t mean you’ve proven me or anyone else “wrong”.

I agree with the others on principle. I have no problem with cosmetic and convenience items in the gem store, but this does set a bad precedent where you pay real money to get something you can’t get elsewhere that actually provides a financial benefit.

Again, I fought Pyro using this exact build last night with my mesmer, and it wasn’t close. If we had switched builds, he would have still beaten me, and it also wouldn’t have been close.

Anyone who says mesmers don’t require skill is full of kitten, period, end of discussion.