Guild Wars 2

Karka Queen is largely dead on my server. Reward might bring out some players, but I don’t believe it is a deciding factor. The Karka Queen is one of Anet’s attempts at catering to the mythical hardcore player in open world PvE and Grenth is the other major attempt. I say mythical because, while you do find harcore players on the forums, they are largely non-existent in-game.

Open world PvE should not be designed around hardcore players even if they did exist as it should be designed for the kind of players you find there. That is, a wide diversity of players, most without voice communication, who aren’t playing from an interrupt list. The new Teq will be the next ghostown. I got a kick out of one ‘hardcore’ who played the new Teq and was effusive in his praise. I asked him if he succeeded. The answer was ‘no’, he failed big time. The new Teq will simply be the next failure fest that may see some large guild attention initially if the reward is high enough, but will eventually just empty that part of the open world.

The actual answer is simple, but Anet doesn’t get it—at all. Design the open world for the players you find there and create instances of tiered difficulty for players who desire more challenge. This would require that Anet redefine ‘challenge’ as something more than HP and instagibs, but this is the real answer to the problem.

As Mungrul points out above the only truly new contribution to our fund of knowledge is that Ascended was not planned but rather was a response to experience post release of the game. That’s a rather large admission, but nothing here is really game-changing. He said Ascended ‘should’ be the last tier, not that it ‘will’ be the last tier. And, this is essentially what they said back in November, i.e., that there were no plans for a new tier of rarity post ascended. The plan was to carry vertical progression forward through ever more powerful infusions applied to the ascended gear. VP is all about the ascending power level of the game and it really makes no difference in how it is implemented. It would be news if they announced that VP would end with Ascended gear and that Ascended would be the final tier. That would not only be news, but good news, but I doubt we will ever hear it. Bottom line, not much new here.

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Namu.5712:

There you have it.

Now stop coming here and complaining non-stop.

Ascended is basically it gear wise.

:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Jy7CcwnfUdU#t=104

I’m afraid that you don’t understand the issue. It’s not Ascended gear, it’s vertical progression. Colin says here that it ‘should’ be the last tier not that it will be the last tier. More importantly, last November they said, essentially, the same thing—that there were no plans for additional tiers of rarity. They intended to move vertical progression on through infusions to the existing tier of gear. Since the ascended tier is not the problem, and VP very much is, only a statement which specifically mentions a removal of VP will address the OMG TREADMILL types like me who recognize that VP is a treadmill and will be so until it’s removed. Anet could make this issue go away today with one statement saying VP was to be stopped as the treadmill then would be gone.

Edit: I realize it would be very difficult for them to say that VP was to be removed. For one thing they thought it was a good idea and addressed the problem of players feeling like there was nothing to do (let’s give them a treadmill!). Some at Anet may still think VP is a good idea. Additionally, it’s now the major driver of the reward system(s). You heard that right: vertical progression is the principle driver of the reward system(s) in GW2. How do I know that? Consider the laurel. Most realize instinctively that it is the most important element in the system. And, what does the laurel buy you? Just visit a laurel merchant to find out. It buys you one more step on an ever-ascending power curve. VP and it’s treadmill is now the heart of GW2. It would be quite a feat for Anet to extricate themselves from this pit. It’s doable, of course, but would require insight, courage, and will. I’m not sure they’re up for such a heroic task.

VP isn’t the problem. VP is your problem. There are a lot of people for whom that is also a problem. However, we have different factions of people complaining about different things. Not everyone complaining is complaining about VP.

Some people are complaining about the grind and some people are complaining about the time gating, and can live with the grind. It’s not all one party. You’re not all saying the same thing.

It all, whether grind, treadmill, time gating, etc., exists for one reason. The reason is VP. Without VP we all would be saying…nothing…about the subjects currently under discussion. Everyone complaining (in these threads) is complaining about one thing and one thing only, and that is some aspect of VP.

What I would like to see is content appropriate for all levels of player in GW2. What I would like to see removed is catering to a mythical hardcore player in open world PvE so that you get things like Grenth, the Karka Queen, or the new Teq, large failure fests that empty that part of the open world. I call them mythical because you see signs of their life on the forums, but they are nowhere to be found in-game. They are simply “gone” like everyone else when the content becomes more “interesting”.

The open world is not about crushing challenge. Rather, it should be appropriately challenging for the player and situation you find there, i.e., a wide diversity of players who are not in voice chat and do not work from an interrupt list. Truly challenging content should be found in tiered instances. This way everyone can be satisfied. It’s one of those things that’s very simple and straightforward, but very difficult for Anet to get.

I vote for “The Insane”. Always wanted that title in WoW and never got around to it as it was insane. It’s the same here and would be most fitting.

Basically, by playing the game. Specifically, you need to salvage the blues and greens you get playing for the essence of luck. D3 did a similar thing in granting paragon levels to increase MF. MF on gear is an idea whose time has gone—it’s great that Anet took the high road on this.

WhimsicalPacifist.2943:

Agaetis.4518:

Did a little test in the builder how much those weapons you “need” to “grind” for really matters in damage. Let me know if I did something wrong.

1. full berserker warrior without ascended weapons and exotic trinkets:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.1g.h1h.9.1g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

= 6503 effective power

2. full berserker warrior with ascended weapons and exotic trinkets:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.5g.h1h.9.5g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

= 6582 effective power = 1.1% increase in effective power

So if you don’t feel you really really need that 1.1% increase in damage (or the looks) don’t grind for it! It’s easy like that

Interesting, but to really see the impact of ascended you should add in full beserker with ascended weapons AND ascended trinkets. Also you are not mentioning Critical Chance or Critical Damage which, when factored into damage output, have a greater than linear effect on DPS.

He has made this post in two other threads today where he was hammered and disproven. Anet themselves (Mike O) have said the initial power level increase would be ~10%. And, that’s just initial. VP doesn’t progress by stopping.

Namu.5712:

There you have it.

Now stop coming here and complaining non-stop.

Ascended is basically it gear wise.

:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Jy7CcwnfUdU#t=104

I’m afraid that you don’t understand the issue. It’s not Ascended gear, it’s vertical progression. Colin says here that it ‘should’ be the last tier not that it will be the last tier. More importantly, last November they said, essentially, the same thing—that there were no plans for additional tiers of rarity. They intended to move vertical progression on through infusions to the existing tier of gear. Since the ascended tier is not the problem, and VP very much is, only a statement which specifically mentions a removal of VP will address the OMG TREADMILL types like me who recognize that VP is a treadmill and will be so until it’s removed. Anet could make this issue go away today with one statement saying VP was to be stopped as the treadmill then would be gone.

Edit: I realize it would be very difficult for them to say that VP was to be removed. For one thing they thought it was a good idea and addressed the problem of players feeling like there was nothing to do (let’s give them a treadmill!). Some at Anet may still think VP is a good idea. Additionally, it’s now the major driver of the reward system(s). You heard that right: vertical progression is the principle driver of the reward system(s) in GW2. How do I know that? Consider the laurel. Most realize instinctively that it is the most important element in the system. And, what does the laurel buy you? Just visit a laurel merchant to find out. It buys you one more step on an ever-ascending power curve. VP and it’s treadmill is now the heart of GW2. It would be quite a feat for Anet to extricate themselves from this pit. It’s doable, of course, but would require insight, courage, and will. I’m not sure they’re up for such a heroic task.

There is no reason to believe that higher MF will affect any given type of drop. You have to remember that MF represents a chance at increased X but exists within a loot system bound by it’s own rules. MF means nothing without the context of a loot system and Anet can make it a wasteland or the big rock candy mountain. Whether MF will meaningfully affect, say, precursors, is a complete unknown and I see no benefit to making stuff up about it.

Agaetis.4518:

Saying that exotic to ascended is a 5% damage boost is wrong. So I did a little test in the builder. Let me know if I did something wrong.

1. full berserker warrior without ascended weapons and exotic trinkets:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.1g.h1h.9.1g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

= 6503 effective power

2. full berserker warrior with ascended weapons and exotic trinkets:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.5g.h1h.9.5g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

= 6582 effective power = 1.1% increase in effective power

With all the ascended gear that we will get over the next 1-2 it will add up to maybe 15-20% damage increase. Significant but not gamebreaking imo, especially in the bigger pic

This is a repost from another thread. You were disproven there.

Zero Day.2594:

Agaetis.4518:

So I did a little test in the builder how much those ascended weapons you “need” to “grind” for really matters. Please let me know if I did something wrong.

- Full berserker warrior without ascended weapons and exotic trinkets:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.1g.h1h.9.1g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

= 6503 effective power

- Full berserker warrior with ascended weapons and exotic trinkets:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.5g.h1h.9.5g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

= 6582 effective power = 1.1% increase in effective power

If you don’t feel you really need that 1.1% increase in damage/or the looks don’t grind for it! It’s not harder than that when you think about it

Fixed…

Ascended = 7001.86 (weapons and trinkets)
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.5g.h1h.9.5g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|4s.0.3s.0.2s.0.2s.0.3s.0.3s.0|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

Exotic = 6503.28
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.1g.h1h.9.1g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

~7.7% increase
Keep in mind two things
1. it’s not full ascended set YET (no armor)
2. Don’t think the weapon damage is included? – could be wrong… but ascended weapons should crit for a metric kitten ton more.

Agaetis.4518:

So I did a little test in the builder how much those ascended weapons you “need” to “grind” for really matters. Please let me know if I did something wrong.

- Full berserker warrior without ascended weapons and exotic trinkets:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.1g.h1h.9.1g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

= 6503 effective power

- Full berserker warrior with ascended weapons and exotic trinkets:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/warrior/?8.2|7.5g.h1h.9.5g.h1|1.1g.h1|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67.1g.67|u5ab.a1.0.0.u69c|0.0|5x.6d.6e.6c.6m|e

= 6582 effective power = 1.1% increase in effective power

If you don’t feel you really need that 1.1% increase in damage/or the looks don’t grind for it! It’s not harder than that when you think about it

Anet themselves mentioned the initial VP adding about 5-10% to the power level in the initial slots released. But, the larger misunderstanding is comparing power level 2 to power level 1. Think about the words that make up VP, vertical progression, it’s about an ever-increasing power level of the game. It’s irrelevant whether power level 2 is required for success in a power level 1 world. The power level of the game will increase over time (by definition) and it’s self-evident that at some point the ever ascending power level will matter.

Agreed. VP is bad for both WvW and PvE. It is the worst decision Anet has made to date. They’ve shown they can create a great game as GW2 is one of the best MMO’s I’ve played. But, it’s almost like a completely different team is managing it from the one that created it. Anyone remember The Stepford Wives? I get the same eerie feeling about the possibility of The Stepford Developers taking over the franchise and running it into the ground.

Desthin Sinkropht.4123:

[snip]
Now here comes the other boogeyman of MMOs: Vertical Progression. I need to make this VERY clear…Vertical Progression is nothing more than the introduction of new gear levels over time. It is NOT inherently a bad thing. “Gear Grind” is a TYPE of VP, the most easily abused and the one most common in MMOs. ANet isn’t infallible (as the ascended gear being dropped on us with fractals shows), but they are showing remarkable levels of awareness in regards to what the players want out of gear, and they are taking responsible steps to make sure the majority of players get what they want.
[snip]

Somehow missed this thread but want to correct the OP’s misunderstanding of VP. There are no ‘types’ of VP. There isn’t a “gear grind” type and a “non-gear grind” type . And, It is not all about new gear levels. All you need to know about VP is found in the words that make up the concept. Vertical: the power level of the game increases, Progression: it increases continually over time. Simple. It is usually implemented via new gear levels but this is not necessary at all as you could keep a named tier indefinitely and simply raise the power level of the game through infusions. It’s not about gear, per se, it’s about the power level of the game

The purpose of VP is to 1) provide a sense of character progression, and 2) provide an incentive for continued play.

So, again, there is no gear-grind type of VP as the gear-grind is a side-effect of VP itself. Because we are talking about the power level of the game the “incentive” or the treadmill is non-optional. If you don’t follow the power curve, you eventually won’t be able to play the game. Once you have the definition of VP handled it’s non-optional nature is self-evident. VP is an old concept and it’s commonly understood among game designers and players. Usually, the issue is around whether it’s good or bad, here it’s often about misunderstanding what it is and denying that it’s negative effects will be experienced in GW2. VP has extra baggage and negative effects. They are and will be experienced by both developers (managing VP) and players (the non-optional treadmill) in GW2.

ophidic.1279:

Shelledfade.6435:

The game is supposed to be FUN, not a GRIND.

You shouldn’t even realize that you’re grinding while playing.

This though, this is just dumb.

I put 200g down into crafting to try to get a dusk in the mystic forge and never got one, then they go ahead and increase the crafting cap to 500.

That’s basically 150 hours of completely wasted time spent in the game. I left this game for 2-3 months and I think I’m gonna leave permanently if this is the direction the game is going in.

Why should I put more time in this game if my time is being wasted playing it. Give me an answer ANET.

If the grind isn’t fun then you’re playing it wrong.

‘Grind’ in a game isn’t really about the ball being in the players court, as it is largely by design and game developers know and work with this. All game developers want to make an engaging game and study human motivation extensively to understand what motivates continued play. Early on in MMO’s the gear-grind carrot (power creep) won the day as it was easy to implement and the non-optional aspect seemed to keep people playing.

However, over the years we’ve learned a lot about game design theory and we understand that the offer you can’t refuse in vertical progression is really a greasy way to deal with humans. And, gamers have noticed that VP is just a treadmill. You are the same before and after the treadmill ride relative to other players and the environment. It’s not cool or fun to be exercised like a hamster and the original quotes from Anet recognize this and a lot of us bought the game based on those quotes. That’s why you see all these threads.

Markadis.9012:

Collen Brohanson specifically states in this interview that there won’t be any more gear past Ascended Gear, so all you doomsayers can chill and go back to enjoying the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy7CcwnfUdU

Did he say that there would be no further vertical progression? No. They even said last November that there were no plans for new tiers of rarity, simply infusions and whatever other gains to power they can come up with without a new tier. Power creep will continue.

What does this mean? Well, Ascended was never the problem. It is simply a point on an ever ascending power curve. Vertical progression is the problem and until Mr. Brohanson (sic) declares an end to it there is no reason to quit the doomsaying. VP is a blight on gaming and really needs to be removed from this game.

The only thing I’d disagree with the OP on is his uniqueness in his experience. The game is crazy for those who have stuck with it and are just trying to follow the path of the power curve. I actually reminisce fondly of the short/steep grind in WoW. I could grind for 2 months and be done with the grind for the entire rest of the tier. I could RELAX and just play the game like I wanted to with no sword over my head. The sword never leaves its position over my head in GW2. The gear grind is never over like it is periodically in WoW. The slow grind is a cruel, relentless grind.

Katai.6240:

Sort of missing the point.

The fact that you shouldn’t go condition damage in PvE IS the problem. There’s a huge avenue of diversity available in condition builds, but is completely negated by the condition cap.

That fact that a single person can keep full stacks of bleeds, poisons, and burns is a problem. In a group of 5 people, having 4 Power damage and 1 condition damage is fine. Having 3 power damage and 2 condition damage means one person is completely worthless in this battle, and you’re basically doing a dungeon with 4 people.

Basically, why create the content if it can’t be used? Why have condition damage at all if it’s effective DPS in groups is zero?

You’ve got it. That’s it plain and simple. Other games have tried what Anet tried without success and fixed the problem in their game. Take WoW, an affliction warlock (DoT class) is always near the top in raid parses, right up there with direct damage classses. Why? Because the DoT is accounted for by player rather than by stacks on a mob. DoT and direct are simply damage which is delivered differently. The sustained damage of direct and DoT should be comparable in a non-trivial fight.There is no logical reason why a given class shouldn’t get credit for the damage it does and it’s truly bizarre that Anet would try to pull this off in 2012. It doesn’t work and a game developer should know this instinctively.

They are aware of the problem, have indicated a desire to fix it, but there is no ETA.

The OP is referring to the conventional argument from insignificance. The argument is a defense of Anet’s embrace of vertical progression and a tacit denial of a gear grind by way of the introduction of ascended gear. If it is insignificant and you don’t really need it then there can’t be a meaningful gear grind behind it.

Of course, this argument is disingenuous and simply betrays a lack of understanding around the game design element we know as vertical progression. Because VP is a process where the power level of the game increases periodically and continuously over time (you only need to understand the words to understand the concept), it makes no sense whatsoever to argue about whether power level 2 is required to function in a power level 1 world. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping and it’s self-evident that at some point the power level difference will matter incontrovertibly across the game, perhaps with the exception of sPvP. The important take away is that since we are talking about the power level of the game, it is non-optional that you follow the path of the power curve if you want to play the game long-term.

Saying that “you don’t need ascended to play the game” amounts to nothing more than an irrational defense of Anet and an indication that the person saying it knows very little about the theoretical aspects of game design.

It would be impossible as it would only take 1 to keep bleeds capped around 25. After that you would just be doing white damage for the most part—it ain’t gonna happen. Now if you have one condition, one hybrid, and the rest power, it might work, but would be terribly inefficient.

+1 for the OP. We’ve been letting Anet know that we didn’t and don’t want to chase stat inflation (the gear treadmill) since they introduced vertical progression in November of last year. They have been largely radio silent on the subject since the AMA last year.

1/10 for making the effort to post.

I don’t think they understood the cost of managing vertical progression before they took it on. It pretty much makes whatever it touches a mess. For the altoholic it’s simply Pythonic silliness.

With the rapid delivery of temporary content, Anet doesn’t really have time to think through stuff like this. A long-term focus on deep storytelling and quality content is one of the sacrifices they have made for the perceived value of rapid delivery of, well, I’m not sure what to call it other than less than what it could be.

darkace.8925:

Altie.4571:

Why would anyone purchaes gems with money when gold is free?

Gold isn’t free. Like money, gold requires time and effort to acquire. Some people earn money at a far greater pace than they earn gold. Or some might simply wish to support ArenaNet through the purchase of gems. Different strokes for different folks.

Yep, because of the exchange rate, using gold for gems is crazy given the rate. The cost of gems in $ is fixed and probably a better perceived value than using gold. I have decided to quit purchasing gems though until they announce the removal of vertical progression from the game—really don’t want to, essentially, pay them in order to ride a treadmill.

Zeldain.5710:

Kozai.8269:

Zeldain.5710:

If you can’t ever improve your character, what’s the point? That means the biggest part of an MMORPG – the item hunt – is over one year into the lifecycle of the game.

Depends on how fanatic of a item collector/player you are; only one friend of mine has any Ascended gear yet, a trinket or two, and I just finished completing trinkets on my main. My second character doesn’t even have all Exotics yet, none of my friends is fully Exoticed on all their 80s either. With the recipes I’ve seen for Ascended weapons, I would be surprised if any of us has any sooner than 6 months from now, let alone any fully equipped, let alone progress on armor, if that gets released.

I’m contemplating slowly working on Ascended weapons and armor, but if its only going to last a year before needing to be replaced, I won’t bother.

We’re good now, never increase. [gear or levels]

You are on the very very slow end of the curve. Just like they can’t cater to the hardcore, they can’t cater to you either.

But progression has to happen… the game will die without it.

All games in or near the genre need to provide a mechanism for character progression. Vertical progression is an old formula that a lot of us have burned out on. I, for one, came to GW2 from WoW to escape vertical progression. Horizontal, and particularly ability/skill progression, provides a sense of character progression and expansion without the negative effects (mandatory treadmill ride) of vertical progression. Many were waiting for a new, more thoughtful MMO like this. Many hoped that GW2 would be this MMO.

Vayne.8563:

A manifesto isn’t a casual statement of intent…it’s a statement of intent. Which is considerably different from a promise. They intended to do something, they tried it, it didn’t work, they changed it.

There’s no way in any language I know you can call that a lie. You can if you want call it misleading. Is being misleading the same as lying? That’s a very different question. And then there’s the question of intent. Is being unintentionally misleading a lie?

Because of it’s connotations, whether you think this is true or not, lie is a bad choice of word. You can use it if you want. If you were one of my authors, I’d just change it before it went to print.

Please provide one quote where I called Anet’s breaking of their promise a ‘lie’. I’ll save you the time: I never made the statement. For the record I don’t believe that there was any intention to deceive in making the promise and then later breaking it.

The word promise has no negative connotations, just inconvenient ones. It is a simple word that is foundational to the way that we operate as humans in society. And, when a promise is broken there are repercussions and that is what we are talking about in all these threads. Anet could end it today with a clear mea culpa with the reasoning behind the change in direction, i.e., a clear renegotiation of the manifesto and other pre-release representations. Anet, for some reason, doesn’t want this to end…and so we continue.

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Anet stated (I hate the word promise in this context) that if you grind for something in Guild Wars 2 it will be only cosmetic.

I don’t know at what point in time statements in interviews became promises. I see quite a large difference personally between a statement and a comment. After all, many statements are quite casual, where a promise implies something core.

I think I saw 3 mentions of the vertical progression thing during the years preceding the game, but it was definitely said and I’d have been happier with the game if Anet had stuck to their guns.

But I can also understand why they didn’t.

Edit: Here’s why I say it’s not a promise.

Father: Okay everyone we’re going to the zoo tomorrow.

Tomorrow arrives, it’s raining. Most of the kids don’t want to go to the zoo in the rain. The situation has changed.

Father: Let’s go to the arcade instead. That’s still fun.

Those who had their hearts set on going to the zoo naturally are angry, but I’m not so sure dad promised to go to the zoo. It was his intention to go to the zoo however…and circumstances changed.

We’ve already exhausted this in another thread, but I see you took nothing away from it so I’m game.

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

The source is http://www.merriam-webster.com. That’s all a promise is. It can be legally bound by a contract (which we are not talking about here), or bound by a vow or oath, but what you are binding is a promise. And, a promise is “a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified”.

One freedom I will not allow you is the freedom to give words meanings other than their plain dictionary definition. And, please don’t go to nuance again here as it’s not needed. Nuance greatly enriches language and it’s often necessary when dealing with complex issues for which the language finds itself poor. The promise is not in need of nuance. It is simple and provides the basis for many significant business, personal, and legal concepts. And, that is why everyone is upset around Anet’s reversal on vertical progression. They broke a promise. Not a legally binding one, but a promise.

Anyone can look stuff up in the dictionary. You claim I learned nothing from the other thread. I could say the same about you.

Promise, to most people (at least in America) has a different definition that statement. Saying something isn’t promising it, which is why when people say something, someone else might ask, “promise?”.

In fact that’s practically a cliche. Because of the connotations of promise, using it with regard to casual statements is at best ambiguous and at worst misleading.

And I don’t really care if you agree or believe it…it happens to be true.

Promise, to most English speaking people is the 1a definition of promise. That’s actually why it’s the 1a definition. Your argument is not with me, but rather with the language as a vehicle to transmit meaning.

Your statement about someone asking “promise” has to do with what I previously described a “binding” a promise, either legally through a contract or through the mechanism of a vow or oath. It doesn’t matter, the thing bound is a promise:

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

And, a manifesto is not a casual statement of intention, it is rather a formal statement of intention that is intended to guide, in this case, the game over time. Do I need to define ‘manifesto’ for you as well?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

You can improve your character without ever climbing stats though. This was proven in GW1, which had a level cap of 20, and yet people loved the horizontal progression.

And, if you read Colin’s latest blog post on the future he talks about skill/ability progression (a major aspect of horizontal progression) as something to do “instead” of a gear grind. Sadly, immediately after that post we get more Ascended gear and more power creep. The main reason the forums still roil is that they haven’t come out and said that the VP will be ending. Until then it will be business as usual on the forums and in the game. Grinding in the game and raging on the forums.

Vayne.8563:

stale.9785:

Accept it – they lied, again. There was a dramatic change in Anet’s structure right around release (2 of the 3 founders left, almost the entire dev team quit/were fired, and now we have about 6 people of the original team left.)

The people in charge now are about making money from everything – and we’re getting what you’d expect from it. Content that requires 24/7 game play, or cracking open your wallet.

It’s disappointing, and vaguely upsetting, but frankly, what I’ve come to expect from the “new” Anet.

Lie implies intent. What evidence do you have that when Anet devs made these quotes they didn’t think them true.

I always agree with you here. There is absolutely no reason to believe that they intended to break their promises and therefore I don’t believe they lied.

All they did was break their promise and that is why you see an outrage that is really unabated since last November. There are usually 4-5 threads on the main page (general) about VP and gear grind at any time. I don’t anticipate that this will lessen any over time. Horizontal progression is an idea whose time has come and you can read Colin’s last blog post to see that even Anet seems to have religion on this.

However, the one thing they haven’t done is to state that they deviated from their manifesto, saw their error, and are now course correcting by removing VP. The threads will continue until then fueled by the pain of the gear grind. I was one of those who didn’t play GW1. I came to GW2 from WoW to escape the gear grind (in part). I generally love irony, but haven’t been laughing much over this.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

OP to the topic.. Last thing I heard about this was that Ascended gear was going to be the last tier.

It doesn’t matter whether it’s the last named tier as it’s not the problem in the first place. The problem is vertical progression and that will continue:

“we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Chris W in the AMA

“That is why there is no plan for new Rarity Tiers of loot but there are plans to enhance or gain items within the existing rarity design whose properties continue on a shallow power curve
However we have no intention of adding a new Rarity of Gear such as Ascended. Instead and as we evolve the game existing Rarity’s will evolve over time
Through infusions and existing Tiers there will be the opportunity to increase stats or abilities on a low power curve through multiple types of gameplay in GW2.
The opportunity to enhance existing tiers of loot will not be through a regular cadence of monthly updates instead it is more likely to come from expansions or very big drops of content.” Chris W in the AMA

It doesn’t matter how they move the power level up vertically; they could do it through potions if they want. The problem is the non-optional grind which VP creates (by definition) in all the games in which you find it. It’s called a treadmill grind because you expend countless hours of time and go nowhere—it’s just bigger numbers on a character sheet that everyone else has as well. My main in WoW was once around 10k HP at max level. In MoP he’s pushing 400k HP and nothing has changed. Mobs and players still take the same amount of time to kill and I die just as easily. Nothing has changed basically except the numbers. A growing number of MMO players realize this and are asking for a new kind of MMO, the kind GW2 was promised to be.

Aeolus.3615:

hellokittyonline.7532:

well, if ascended gear takes like 2 weeks to craft, the next tier is gonna take 4 week to craft lol?

Ascended and legendary is last tier, with legedanry u just have all stat combos avaliable to choose from weapon menu or something

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Upcoming_changes_and_features

Gona start spam this link…..

You do realize that the linked page nowhere says that Ascended is the last tier? It may be the last in terms of named tiers but that doesn’t mean it’s the end of VP. Here’s what Chris W said in the AMA: “That is why there is no plan for new Rarity Tiers of loot but there are plans to enhance or gain items within the existing rarity design whose properties continue on a shallow power curve”. There wasn’t planning around another tier, at the time, but there is a plan to continually raise its power level (infusions were mentioned). Whether Ascended is the last tier is a red herring. VP is the problem and VP is what must be stopped.

Agree with OP on stopping VP. It doesn’t really matter whether you think they will add another tier or not, simply because you have no way of knowing. One word from Anet stating clearly that they are stopping vertical progression will stop the angst that we’ve all seen since last November. I mean, look at the general discussion home page. What do we have 4 threads or so on VP currently. Anet can stop this madness, but so far they have refused to. Anet, please stop the madness.

The problem is not ascended gear—at all. Ascended gear does not make a treadmill at all and that’s not what we are talking about. The problem is vertical progression.

VP can be described as an integer series 1,2,3,4,…n where each number represents an increase in the power level of the game, usually through stat inflation on gear, but it could be through infusions, potions, anything really that raises the power level of the game. VP can be understood from the words that make it up: Vertical, the power level increases, Progression, it continually increases over time. VP doesn’t progress by stopping. It’s purpose is to provide a sense of progression and motivate play, but it brings a lot of extra baggage and that’s why you see all these threads. Perhaps the heaviest piece of extra baggage is that, since we are talking about the power level of the game, the gear treadmill is not optional. This is obvious once you have the definition of VP understood. It should be self-evident upon reading this paragraph. And, VP is what they added to the game last November.

But, yeah, you are right. Ascended gear is not a treadmill, it’s simply a point on the ever ascending power curve. VP is what has created the treadmill. In fact, the major reward systems in the game are currently driven by VP. If you have any doubt visit your friendly local Laurel vendor and see what they have for sale. Laurels are the treadmill that they placed outside FotM.

Vayne.8563:

Anet stated (I hate the word promise in this context) that if you grind for something in Guild Wars 2 it will be only cosmetic.

I don’t know at what point in time statements in interviews became promises. I see quite a large difference personally between a statement and a comment. After all, many statements are quite casual, where a promise implies something core.

I think I saw 3 mentions of the vertical progression thing during the years preceding the game, but it was definitely said and I’d have been happier with the game if Anet had stuck to their guns.

But I can also understand why they didn’t.

Edit: Here’s why I say it’s not a promise.

Father: Okay everyone we’re going to the zoo tomorrow.

Tomorrow arrives, it’s raining. Most of the kids don’t want to go to the zoo in the rain. The situation has changed.

Father: Let’s go to the arcade instead. That’s still fun.

Those who had their hearts set on going to the zoo naturally are angry, but I’m not so sure dad promised to go to the zoo. It was his intention to go to the zoo however…and circumstances changed.

We’ve already exhausted this in another thread, but I see you took nothing away from it so I’m game.

Promise: 1 : a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

The source is http://www.merriam-webster.com. That’s all a promise is. It can be legally bound by a contract (which we are not talking about here), or bound by a vow or oath, but what you are binding is a promise. And, a promise is “a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified”.

One freedom I will not allow you is the freedom to give words meanings other than their plain dictionary definition. And, please don’t go to nuance again here as it’s not needed. Nuance greatly enriches language and it’s often necessary when dealing with complex issues for which the language finds itself poor. The promise is not in need of nuance. It is simple and provides the basis for many significant business, personal, and legal concepts. And, that is why everyone is upset around Anet’s reversal on vertical progression. They broke a promise. Not a legally binding one, but a promise.

rjnemer.7816:

First, if you think ascended gear is a treadmill you have no idea what you are talking about.

Second, It will only matters in WvW. All the pve content in this game is so easy (except for high level fractals where AR is required) you can easily complete it with masterwork gear.

Third, its a business, of course they are greedy.

Fourth, since when have mmo’s kept their word on everything

The problem is not ascended gear—at all. The problem is vertical progression and it matters across the PvE and WvW. Let me break it down for you.

VP can be described as an integer series 1,2,3,4,…n where each number represents an increase in the power level of the game, usually through stat inflation on gear, but it could be through infusions, potions, anything really that raises the power level of the game. VP can be understood from the words that make it up: Vertical, the power level increases, Progression, it continually increases over time. VP doesn’t progress by stopping. It’s purpose is to provide a sense of progression and motivate play, but it brings a lot of extra baggage and that’s why you see all these threads. Perhaps the heaviest piece of extra baggage is that, since we are talking about the power level of the game, the gear treadmill is not optional. This is obvious once you have the definition of VP understood. It should be self-evident upon reading this paragraph.

But, yeah, you are right. Ascended gear is not a treadmill, it’s simply a point on the ever ascending power curve. VP is what has created the treadmill. In fact, the major reward systems in the game are currently driven by VP. If you have any doubt visit your friendly local Laurel vendor and see what they have for sale. Laurels are the treadmill that they placed outside FotM.

TPenny.5071:

Seems one solution to this problem is to make it instanced and have guilds do it together.

You are absolutely right on this. Truly challenging content, which I don’t believe Anet is currently capable of, should be implemented in a tiered fashion in instances. Open world PvE in the MMO is not about crushing challenge. It will simply empty the open world where it is attempted and create enormous ill will toward Anet. All MMO’s except GW2 understand this. It is possible to satisfy the desires of a diverse player base, but Anet has not discovered the obvious answer to date.

It’ll be a failure-fest. We could learn from the Karka Queen, Grenth, et al, or we can make an “epic” teq. But, it does sound like another opportunity to learn open world PvE balance in the MMO. Undoubtedly, it’ll happen at some point and at some cost.

HiddenNick.7206:

Fungalfoot.7213:

They promised no gear treadmill and no grind and that the progression would be cosmetic.

Where?! When?! You seem to be pretty sure about that so just PLEASE give me a quote that says exactly that!

You’ve already got it in your OP:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Everyone knows what he was referring to, it was the conventional WoW-gear grind (and clones and predecessors) that we all know and hate. You just need to accept the English and deal with it. Anet promised a new kind of MMO, got spooked, and reversed themselves. Don’t really know why, but it is as simple as that.

Mike might have a future in politics as they all flip-flop depending on the direction of the wind. By November of last year he had reversed himself on VP and dismissed GW1 as “stagnant” without VP. Unfortunately, most gamers want to be able to depend on statements of direction from game developers. It’s really the only way we know whether we want to stick with a franchise.

“How is introducing VP respecting the player? Because it’s fun to be challenged and rewarded. Because it’s fun to have the character you play grow and evolve over time. Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year — and it wasn’t that fun. It was stagnant.” Mike O’Brien in the AMA

killcannon.2576:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

But a treadmill, by definition, never ends. So if legendary is the final tier, then it can’t be a treadmill, because it’s final. That’s a definition.

You can call a bird a stone, but a bird isn’t a stone.

Legendary is not a gear tier. Legendary is a prestige skin. Legendary stats are not different than the stats of whatever the highest tier is. Thus, it cannot be thought of as a final tier. If ANet never adds another tier beyond Ascended, then Ascended would be the highest tier. We don’t yet know if that will or won’t be the case.

No definition of treadmill that I can find includes “never ends” as part of it. A treadmill does include an endless belt as one of its components. The belt is important to the treadmill’s function, but it is not the purpose of the treadmill.

That said, the function of a treadmill is to allow or cause the user to walk in place. However, the purpose of a treadmill is not to be “always on.” It is to power something or get health results. The purpose of a gear treadmill in an MMO is to promote the game’s longevity in the face of players who desire to play the game a lot. That is the purpose of Ascended.

Sometimes, people argue about the meaning of words to sidetrack from the real issues being discussed. I prefer to talk about purpose and intent rather than about whether a word that has been altered to fit a particular context is being used “properly” or not. The rapid evolution of words in popular culture means that their meaning cannot be set in stone. Thus, discussing the meanings of words is important in discourse so we know what each other is talking about. However, that discussion should be tangential to the real issues, rather than being used as a means to win an argument.

Gear treadmills serve two purposes in MMO’s that implement them as a game mechanic.

1. Progression- Allows the player to “feel” as if they are becoming more powerful compared to what they were before they had the new gear. Bigger numbers.

2. Content gating- Content can only be completed reliably by having a certain gear score or dps/armor/heal rating attributed to having said gear.

GW2 currently only follows the first purpose as implemented by game mechanics. Any current content can be completed (besides fractals) reliably with exotic or lower gear.

It is a treadmill in the sense of progression, but not in the sense of content gating. Any content gating is put in place by the players themselves, not actual game mechanics.

Whether this stays true in the future (the new Teq fight seems a lot like a dps race, and may be turned into a gear encounter instead of a skill encounter) remains to be seen.

And Legendary would be a tier of gear considering it would be a final step, with never having to invest in gear again after acquiring it.

I agree on the number of purposes, but they are actually 1) to provide a sense of character progression; and 2) to motivate play through a non-optional power progression. They are actually strongly related but separate in terms of the purposes for which VP is employed.

Content-gating is simply a side-effect of VP and not required to define it. It has nothing to do with treadmills, they are all around VP proper. The definition is complete in the two words that make up the concept. Content-gating, usually by power level, is part of the non-optional motivation to play in VP and it will always occur at some point on the power curve. This is self evident.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Quoting this because you guys need to read it and calm down.

Manoa.5897:

As someone who was fortunate enough to try the new Tequatl encounter yesterday, I found it exhilarating and a lot of fun. I greatly look forward to seeing it on live and brainstorming strategies with my servermates on how to bring him down.

There’s a bunch of things to keep in mind about what you saw on the livestream. The developer intervention seemed to be only just enough to progress the event along so they could show the whole event off for the live stream. There were only 20 players playing during the live stream at any given time (60 total split among three groups of 20). We did also have developers and alpha testers participating on the back end as well. But I’m willing to bet we didn’t have near the 80+ players they said we’d need to successfully complete the event.

Also, we were playing with a bunch of people we had never played with before and playing mechanics we had never encountered before. And a lot of us didn’t even have time to digest the new mechanics and take advantage of LFG tool before we had to jump into the fray.

Another thing to keep in mind we were dumped onto pre-generated characters and many of us were playing unfamiliar builds. Most folks barely had a chance to swap out to different weapon sets. And all the pre-made characters were on accounts with keybinds set to default, which very much felt like playing with your hands tied behind your back if you rely heavily on customized keybinds.

What you saw on the livestream was a lot rougher than what we’ll likely see on live due to all these factors. I’m sure once it goes live and we’re playing on builds we’re familiar with, playing with our own keybinds, and actually have some level of coordination (especially when folks take more advantage of the new LFG tool), things will go a LOT smoother.

I’ve personally experienced encounters that required the same level of coordination and strategy in City of Heroes (the Hamidon Raid revamp). The COH community banded together and came up with strategies to bring the Hami down regularly and reliably. And in doing so, we bonded and our server communities became incredibly tight-knit as a result of the experience.

Don’t fret! I’m confident that our GW2 community will totally be able to come up with some strategies to bring Tequatl down! We can do it!

He ultimately failed it. There is no comfort here.

Teq will go the way of all content/areas where anet has catered to the mythical hardcore player, it will simply empty of players. I say mythical as there are signs of life on the forums, but they don’t exist in-game. Teq will be the new Grenth, a failure fest that will die as an event. We don’t really have to speculate much on this as we already have examples of how it will play out in the game. It’s quite sad as balance in open world PvE is not difficult and most MMO’s nail it without much thought. GW2 is struggling here and I don’t really understand why.

The distinction around ‘treadmill’ is that you do the work in order to get where you already were. The rundown with VP is that everyone starts at power level X, a new piece(s) of gear drops with higher power and everyone hops on the treadmill. When you get off everyone is at power level Y and meanwhile the environment has taken on power level Y. Before or after the treadmill ride there is no relative difference between player and player or player and environment. In reality you have gone nowhere, there was simply a massive amount of grinding for new numbers that everyone now has. Nothing has changed.

Now, an escalator gives a ride for free. I’d be fine with that but it’s not what VP is about. It’s about the grind to keep players grinding.

The legendaries are only an escalator once you have them and the grind would be measured in years even for the heartiest grinders due to time-gating. Yeah, and the only thing legendary about legendaries will be that they represent grind insurance for each slot. VP is a blight on any game in which you find it—and, GW2 is no exception.

Manoa.5897:

Greyfur.1082:

Manoa.5897:

snip

But we never found out the “real” way of taking him down.

That’s fine. Gives us more to puzzle out once he hits live!

I too find failure exhilarating. I seek out a gaming experience where failure is nearly assured and continuously experienced. I don’t know what I would have done if I hadn’t found GW2.

If you are asking for a dark tone in a game with Quaggan plushie backpacks, I think you’ve got the wrong game.

rjnemer.7816:

More health = More challenging

Anet logic.

I would describe it more like:

More health + instagib from the particle blur = More challenging
Anet logic.

Anet can not really do satisfying challenging content at present. The kind that you find in, say, Dark Souls, where the post-mortem of a fight instantly reveals what you did wrong and what you can do to improve your game. In GW2, often your only mistake was entering combat in the first place. But, let’s suppose they could do challenging content. It should not be placed in the middle of open world PvE, it should rather be delivered in instances with tiered difficulty. Just as form follows function, you design the open world around the player base found there and that is a wide diversity of players. It doesn’t need to be easy, simply appropriately challenging for the environment. Again, every MMO I’ve played has found this balance very quickly; GW2 is the lone standout in not understanding general balance in open world PvE in the MMO.

The point with ascended is simply a point on an ever ascending power curve. There is no point in ascended beyond that. What they introduced was not so much ascended gear as vertical progression, a non-optional gear grind that in theory produces incentive to play the game more. That’s it. It’s just about a gear grind, plain and simple.

MagnusLL.8473:

For all the super hardcores all giddy about “finally difficult open world content”, just remember one small, “insignificant”, little detail: you cannot control the skill level of all the players around you during the fight, but their number will STILL make the event scale up.

Have fun with permafailure which is completely out of your control.

The giddy hardcores will not be around for the fun sadly. What happens when events become more “interesting” and turn into fail-fests is that they empty that part of the open world. That’s why I refer to the hardcores as a mythic species. There are signs of their existence on the forums, but you don’t find them in-game. What we will see is a continued emptying of open world PvE just as we have over the last four months.

Jski.6180:

No it only makes part of a treadmill with out the mobs or harder content that you MUST have its not a full treadmill.

In game design we don’t have the concept of a part-treadmill and a full-treadmill. The classes we are working with are no mandatory treadmill(s) with horizontal progression and a mandatory treadmill with vertical progression. And, that’s one of VP’s largest pieces of excess baggage.

It is a red herring to argue about whether power level ‘2’ is required for the content released under power level ‘1’. If you understand VP then you understand that the power level will rise (vertical), and that it will rise continuously over time (progression). The concept is very simple. And, if you truly understood it you wouldn’t be arguing that power level ‘2’ is insignificant, because you would know that that leaves out the rest of the number series (3,4,5,…,n). It is self-evident that at some point you will not be able to play the game if you don’t grind out the power curve.

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

JK Arrow.7102:

Vayne.8563:

So you ground out stuff. And you were happy to ground out stuff.

I got the max titles for the skills so I could have BIS skills on many characters including Sunspear, Lightbringer, Norn, Asura, Deldrimor and Ebon Vanguard.

And if you say those skills didn’t mean a whole lot more to GW 1 PvE than BIS gear here, I’d say you were dead wrong. Do you know why Anet limited those skills to 3 per skill bar? Because even with three you were too OP to play normal content. If you could have 5 or 6 of those skills you’d be unbeatable.

So you say over and over again my gear was the best, but your skills weren’t. And yet somehow that’s okay with you. The question is why are skills and grinding out that different from gear.

I say it’s in your head.

I didn’t completely answer your question when you asked me the same thing so I thought about it a bit more.

The biggest difference I see between the EotN skills and Ascended gear is that the skills did not replace something that players previously did or earned. They did not make anything else purchased obsolete. While some people may feel Exotics are cheap and easy to obtain, not everyone feels that way and is one of the reasons they may complain about the added vertical progression.

Another thing is that the PvE skills were named that because they were not allowed in any form of PvP. That is also not the case for Ascended gear and is why some of the WvW crowd is upset. Especially as that gear was not available at the same time in that game mode.

The last thing that came to mind is that GW1 was very dependent on specific builds. Some builds took advantage of PvE skills, others did not. Gear is not optional. Everyone has to wear it. It will affect every event, challenge, build decision, etc. Many outcomes and decisions are impacted by a gear change.

I’ll see if I can stir up any additional thoughts.

Anet seperated PvP into WvW and SPvP and said, from the very beginning, WvW was never meant to be balanced. That’s why gear is allowed in WvW.

I don’t think exotics are so expensive that it’s such an issue that we have to replace them…particularly because the content doesn’t require it to be replaced.

As for the skills in Guild Wars 1…they were still more neccesary (or at least they’ll make a bigger difference in the long term, than ascended weapons will.

Thats why youll see “transended” weapons next year. Its a gear tremill, no point in denying it.

Sorry but without the content requiring the upgrade it’s not a treadmill. If I don’t need that gear to play the game…then it’s not a treadmill.

I played Rift. I needed a specific amount of focus to queue for a dungeon. Not to beat it…to queue for it.

That’s why I say it’s not a treadmill. In games with gear treadmills there’s a new tier of gear every 3-4 months. If Anet introduced a tier of gear every year and a half, slowly in stages, I wouldn’t call it a treadmill.

Sorry, but anyone who understands VP understands that it creates a treadmill—by design and definition. It’s sole reason for existence is a theory that it motivates play. That is, it gives a sense of progression and a requirement to follow the path of the power curve. It motivates play because it’s self-evident that if you don’t follow the power curve eventually you will be unable to play the game. Again, this is self-evident on the face of it—i.e., it requires no argument. Any rational human looking at an infinite integer series understands that eventually the ascending power of the game will make it impossible to play if you don’t follow the power curve. It is a mandatory grind. Developers know this about VP and that’s why they choose to employ it. To argue against what is obvious just means that VP is not actually understood.