If I’m bad at dodging, and I take knights, I’ll have more toughness, but I’ll still likely die because I’m bad at dodging. If I’m not, I’ll take the explorers, and likely not die because I’M NOT TAKING DAMAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Thus, the explorers is just like the knights, only I’m benefiting myself more than I would be with the knights, and benefiting the team just as much.
or you could take the beserkers and deal even more damage, and thus helping your team even more
Why would I do that if I want the magic find? If I care about helping the team to the absolute best of my ability I possibly can, I’ll run with guildies/friends, and use the DPS set I hold onto in case my PUG is pathetic.
You should care about it because you’re being a selfish leech by gimping yourself with MF instead of taking Berserker’s.
You’re effectively wasting everyone’s time by slowing down the fights by gimping your damage so that you MIGHT get a better drop.
Basically, if you want a perfect timed run, as in, 1 minute less per fractal, for example, go with the guild, not a pug.
If I’m bad at dodging, and I take knights, I’ll have more toughness, but I’ll still likely die because I’m bad at dodging. If I’m not, I’ll take the explorers, and likely not die because I’M NOT TAKING DAMAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Thus, the explorers is just like the knights, only I’m benefiting myself more than I would be with the knights, and benefiting the team just as much.
or you could take the beserkers and deal even more damage, and thus helping your team even more
Why would I do that if I want the magic find? If I care about helping the team to the absolute best of my ability I possibly can, I’ll run with guildies/friends, and use the DPS set I hold onto in case my PUG is pathetic.
That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.
You are right, a bad MF player will be EVEN WORSE to a team, given he will also be dead. It’s funny how the only argument pro MFers use is the “I can outdps others”… you might be able to, the majority cannot.
The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.
Care to show us how you “measured” that you out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people you run Fractals with? Last I checked there was no DPS meter (and that’s good), there is no way to judge it and you know it. Also, how did you know the others weren’t also MF users? I bet you can’t say that either. Also, maybe you die last because you are hiding behind everyone else and your low dps doesn’t draw enough aggro? Haven’t thought of that either?
We fought identical enemies, such as the novices in cliffside or the asiansquid in the 4th and timed who could down them faster. And I can only take their word for it when they linked their gear, as they could only take mine.
doesnt matter. the fact is that important stat in your armor like +Toughness or +Critical Damage is replaced by the useless MF.
If my experiment doesn’t matter, then neither do the stats presented earlier.
you missed that he might be traited for survival than damage? the important thing is that if he is NOT wearing MF gear, he’s NOT missing the important stats (like +Toughness or +Critical dmg) however weirdly he is traited.
That doesn’t matter, or if anything, makes the stats less reliable than my experiment, because the whole argument is how much DPS you lose. Survivability means you sack DPS for escapes or damage reduction that would otherwise go to damage output or loot chance increase. Regardless, the overall argument is less DPS, and survivability = less DPS.
And someone with Full Explorer (Power, Precision, MAGIC FIND)‘s will die a lot coz he is a glass cannon. Dead player = NO DPS. Otherwise if he’s using Knights (Power, Precision, TOUGHNESS), he might do his share of DPS coz of survivability.
if you follow my post, i was comparing Explorers with Berserker (offense) and Knights (defense). Explorers will deny you that +Critical Dmg and +Toughness.
They will only die a lot if they suck at mechanics. It really does come down to how good you are at staying a live, not your stats.
-[edit]- Lets do a comparison, since you like those.
If I’m bad at dodging, and I take knights, I’ll have more toughness, but I’ll still likely die because I’m bad at dodging. If I’m not, I’ll take the explorers, and likely not die because I’M NOT TAKING DAMAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Thus, the explorers is just like the knights, only I’m benefiting myself more than I would be with the knights, and benefiting the team just as much.
That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.
You are right, a bad MF player will be EVEN WORSE to a team, given he will also be dead. It’s funny how the only argument pro MFers use is the “I can outdps others”… you might be able to, the majority cannot.
The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.
Care to show us how you “measured” that you out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people you run Fractals with? Last I checked there was no DPS meter (and that’s good), there is no way to judge it and you know it. Also, how did you know the others weren’t also MF users? I bet you can’t say that either. Also, maybe you die last because you are hiding behind everyone else and your low dps doesn’t draw enough aggro? Haven’t thought of that either?
We fought identical enemies, such as the novices in cliffside or the asiansquid in the 4th and timed who could down them faster. And I can only take their word for it when they linked their gear, as they could only take mine.
doesnt matter. the fact is that important stat in your armor like +Toughness or +Critical Damage is replaced by the useless MF.
If my experiment doesn’t matter, then neither do the stats presented earlier.
you missed that he might be traited for survival than damage? the important thing is that if he is NOT wearing MF gear, he’s NOT missing the important stats (like +Toughness or +Critical dmg) however weirdly he is traited.
That doesn’t matter, or if anything, makes the stats less reliable than my experiment, because the whole argument is how much DPS you lose. Survivability means you sack DPS for escapes or damage reduction that would otherwise go to damage output or loot chance increase. Regardless, the overall argument is less DPS, and survivability = less DPS.
I think it’s fine as it is. If you want to sacrifice stats in the name of better loot, that’s a personal call.
That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.
You are right, a bad MF player will be EVEN WORSE to a team, given he will also be dead. It’s funny how the only argument pro MFers use is the “I can outdps others”… you might be able to, the majority cannot.
The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.
Care to show us how you “measured” that you out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people you run Fractals with? Last I checked there was no DPS meter (and that’s good), there is no way to judge it and you know it. Also, how did you know the others weren’t also MF users? I bet you can’t say that either. Also, maybe you die last because you are hiding behind everyone else and your low dps doesn’t draw enough aggro? Haven’t thought of that either?
We fought identical enemies, such as the novices in cliffside or the asiansquid in the 4th and timed who could down them faster. And I can only take their word for it when they linked their gear, as they could only take mine.
doesnt matter. the fact is that important stat in your armor like +Toughness or +Critical Damage is replaced by the useless MF.
If my experiment doesn’t matter, then neither do the stats presented earlier.
That would be insanely difficult to implement
No it wouldn’t be. Just attach the camera to a new entity. They already sort of do it for mounted weapons, like the Charr cannon things.
That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.
You are right, a bad MF player will be EVEN WORSE to a team, given he will also be dead. It’s funny how the only argument pro MFers use is the “I can outdps others”… you might be able to, the majority cannot.
The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.
Care to show us how you “measured” that you out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people you run Fractals with? Last I checked there was no DPS meter (and that’s good), there is no way to judge it and you know it. Also, how did you know the others weren’t also MF users? I bet you can’t say that either. Also, maybe you die last because you are hiding behind everyone else and your low dps doesn’t draw enough aggro? Haven’t thought of that either?
We fought identical enemies, such as the novices in cliffside or the asiansquid in the 4th and timed who could down them faster. And I can only take their word for it when they linked their gear, as they could only take mine.
That’s the exact reason they should not give an inspect feature. The people who want to play their way will not be allowed because the control freaks will run all the groups.
I don’t like when a group starts crap like “level 80’s only” in their lfg, but in a popular game as much as this is to be loath… there will ALWAYS be another group that won’t be asking for level 80’s only. With some luck the changes to the LFG feature will help to create groups faster and more reliably for all content. It then is no wild stretch of the imagination to say they couldn’t add filtering options to said content, one of which
could easily be a “no MF gear” filter so you’re added with folks who aren’t using it. Likewise for every player that hates and wants to avoid MF there will be plenty using it and thus you’ll simply (and without friction or embarrassment) be able to join one that allows it, no mess, no fuss and no problem right?What I’m worried about is if this will become a typical WOW “MS>OS need before greed” argument, the likes of which I saw first hand when I suggested something similar for their LFG system, there would be no real reason to hate on a filtering system or alternate loot rules queue, aside from the vapid “queues would be longer” and this led me quickly to a conclusion that it was just players who got their jollies from annoying other players over loot that opposed it, at least I did when no one would answer me with a rational reason why the suggestion was bad.
If said suggestion would lead to a general “MF not allowed” environment, well then maybe the stat in itself just isn’t popular enough to warrant it existing, and it should be replaced in favor of OVERALL loot increases. Why would anyone oppose that though? everyone gets more? you get more stats, everyone gets more loot? you’re not in competition with other players for loot as it’s all personal in this game anyways, so why is it SO important that you receive more rewards over others?
The same argument can be used on DPS. Why is it so important you try to out-DPS the rest of the group?
And we’re right back around to my other point that I was making. You don’t know by how much in regards to damage dealt and damage mitigated. Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing. Once this has been figured out you then think about it in regards to the group and whether your lower damage output or mitigation has a significant impact on the group’s overall performance.
From a post I made on another thread about it, I doubt anything changed since then:
Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2><critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (5902885)/3=688,3 dps*
Total Average damage with Berserker: (7022+1488)/3=984 dps*That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.
However!
The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.
So what if ‘you’ do less DPS? It’s not like you’re doing NO DPS. If you want premium everything, run with friends. You can’t control what other people do, so don’t try to. QQing to ANet about it is an attempt at controlling, by the way.
tl;dr:
You’re ignoring skill to make yourself look better. Stahp ;~;Yup, this is what I was talking about XD
Because of players like mr “bite me” here, we’ll never reach any sort of middle ground or understanding, it works as he wants it to and thus any and all suggested changes which go against these wishes are “the work of the DEVIL!!!”
The real fact of the matter here is if there was no MF stat we could instead change said stat into something “outwardly” worthwhile and also warrant a moderate increase in ALL drops but nope… the response is that their skill is more important and bad players will still wipe in great gear etc etc etc etc etc etc ad tedium… which isn’t wrong, just not the point of the matter and a different argument altogether really.
The argument at least I feel should be “why should I NOT use MF if THIS ABOVE POST is the attitude players will have” which is again where things lead to and thus at that point why bother with something that’s not that powerful in terms of scaling like healing power when MF is more widely used?
Heck lets just replace healing power and toughness etc with MF and restructure all the stats on sets to compensate… oh yeah, cos if everyone has MF the level of the playing field changes if you will, and thus it may as well not exist… parodox FTW!
Feel free to read my other posts in this thread. I have a full DPS set I use, too.
And we’re right back around to my other point that I was making. You don’t know by how much in regards to damage dealt and damage mitigated. Going by stats alone doesn’t mean a thing. Once this has been figured out you then think about it in regards to the group and whether your lower damage output or mitigation has a significant impact on the group’s overall performance.
From a post I made on another thread about it, I doubt anything changed since then:
Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2><critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (5902885)/3=688,3 dps*
Total Average damage with Berserker: (7022+1488)/3=984 dps*
That entire formula is missing not only the player skill, but player uptime. That’s assuming both players are playing at optimum skill, and shows you’re grasping at straws saying that in “all premium conditions, this is what will happen”. I’m not gonna argue that, because you’re right.
However!
The real world is not all premium conditions. As a full-set MF user (bite me) I can safely say I’ve out-DPS’d half to two thirds of the people I pug fractals with, as well as I am consistently the last to die in unplanned wipes, and I frequently wind up tanking as a Mesmer (again, in full MF gear) because people don’t know how to fractals. Not only can I tank and survive, we down the target.
So what if ‘you’ do less DPS? It’s not like you’re doing NO DPS. If you want premium everything, run with friends. You can’t control what other people do, so don’t try to. QQing to ANet about it is an attempt at controlling, by the way.
tl;dr:
You’re ignoring skill to make yourself look better. Stahp ;~;
The best way of dealing with this is to just try and find ways of ascertaining who is wearing MF gear, and then form groups which are explicitly asked to not do it. And if they scam you, blacklist them and make sure they’re refused from other groups…
NOT for using MF gear alone, but by deliberately being a muppet and using it in a group that doesn’t ask for it instead of finding another group.As it is though, we’re NEVER going to reach a agreeable conclusion here… there’s too much ignorance going on.
That’s the exact reason they should not give an inspect feature. The people who want to play their way will not be allowed because the control freaks will run all the groups.
(edited by Sawnic.6795)
It asks when you sign in from an unfamiliar location or IP.
Lets put this into perspective.
As a hybrid shatter/staff Mesmer, I run full MF gear in fractals below 15, because there is no need to be all hardcore raw damage. After 15 or so though, just 5 AR isn’t going to cut it, so I swap out gear for another 10 and eat an omnomberry bar, and only swap to my damage set if the group’s DPS is pitiful. Regardless though, I still run full MF gear, and not even exotics. Just rares. I am quite open about it on my server and I make sure to tell people in my party. I do get ragers, but, guess what? the vast, vast majority of the time, I don’t die, and a lot of the time, save the wipe by mesmertanking. If we /do/ wipe, I’m usually the last one to die (assuming it wasn’t a planned wipe. Those I find creative ways to do it quickly lol).
What does this say about MF gear? It’s the player, not the gear. If you don’t suck at mechanics, you don’t suck at Guild Wars 2. If you complain about Magic Find, you probably do and need someone to carry you, so you use MF as a scapegoat to your own shortcomings.
By the way, you can, and I have, run Fractals naked as a group and still beat most of them with little difficulty.
One thing that could help this whole issue, at least in part, is this:
As in WoW, EQ and other similar games, you could have multiple toons on the same account on different servers and regions. Why not here? Then at least folks could play in either region
The database is set up differently. On WoW, EVERYTHING YOU DID, save special items that were explicitly account-wide, were a per-toon basis. Achievements, gold, banks, mounts, friends lists, mailboxes, etc. etc. Here, though, the only thing you really keep that’s separate is your pockets contents.
They’d have to do a little re-working (and by a little I mean I don’t know how much) to make this feasible, as right now it’s set up so that everything is shared, which apparently requires every toon to be on the same server.
It’s not harmful to the group that one person isn’t in BiS gear. If it truly was, every other MMO ever conceived ever would not allow dungeons/raids unless you had BiS gear. If anything, personally I’d rather have a group of MF gear users than a group primarily made of players who don’t know the content.
Can we enable an option to kill NPCs? Because I’d rather do that.
A little hemlock on the back end of my sword would be nice, as he’s inevitably going to bump into it.
EU and NA worlds are on totally different data centers. There simply isn’t the tech to guest cross-data center, and, honestly, I’m not sure why you would anticipate that there would be. It’s the very same reason why there are even different overflows between the two data centers and why people on one data center’s overflows can’t move to overflows from the other. They are legitimately totally cut off from one-another. Connecting them would require a massive single server for all worlds, which would be at enormous cost to ANet, or a sizable amount of tech for some interfacing, which is a lot of work for very little gain.
I’m sorry that this has negatively impacted you and playing with your friends, but maybe you and your friends should coordinate which data center you’d like to play together on. That’s the best I can offer.
I would just like to point out that if they were truly totally separate systems, we wouldn’t be able to join the same parties or talk to each other through whispers or party chat. I bet it’s more a bandwidth issue. Lag or sheer data transfer/bills they’re concerned about.
You’re mistaken, it has to be any combination of the Festive Golem, Infinarium, and Snowman, duplicates allowed.
So yeah, you have to pay for it to be able to craft him.
Oh, well that’s certainly saddening.
I had that, I just assumed it would be understood.
My bad.
I tried to use the Festive Golem, Princess Doll and the Mini Golem, because I was under the impression you could use any 3 Wintersday minis. Apparently I was mistaken, or there is a bug.
Can I get some clarification? Also, sorry if this is in the wrong board. I honestly wasn’t sure if was better suited here or in the crafting board.
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