That mesmer wasnt even glass… 22k hp and rock dog and still that happens.
You need to learn how to evaluate what is glassy or not. A scholar with 22k hp and no additional toughness is glass. I like how you say "and rock dog’ like that implies he is tankier or something?
The big thing here is that you have to accept that part of playing well is positioning yourself and being aware of your surroundings. As I said earlier, the fact that this guy waltzed past an easily visible thief and made no defensive efforts is why the thief bursted him down.
They can’t re-enter stealth for 3 or 4 seconds after exiting stealth the first time. I’m not even a thief, I play engineer, but all the crying from people who don’t want to adapt or get better is silly.
Yeah, and if he had used the combo I said, you would have started stunned and then he would have been invulnerable for 3 seconds when you tried to initiate your burst. His rock dog did 25% of your life while the Mesmer was asleep at the wheel. If he had rock dog + i duelist up for 3 seconds before he took any damage, you would have to run.
Even if he just randomly dodged when you were near him he would have a chance of mitigating some of the burst.
Using a completely oblivious player to prove a point regarding balance completely invalidates any point you were trying to make. Go back to the drawing board.
Carrion, read my long post a few posts up, I outlined what he could have done differently to avoid it.
There it is:
“Obviously the Mesmer is a Very bad player” -Seether
….lol, Your killing me.
Doesn’t matter if he was a good player or a bad player (He was actually decent) there is absolutely nothing he could of done to stop the combo. That is the point of the thread.
Sorry, most players in TPvP are not even “decent”, I highly doubt this mesmer that got melted in hot join is decent.
Agaian look on the video …
His stunned (grey) + have the imobilize mark
Stun breaker doesnt remove imobilizeDo u find acceptible a class to do such a high damage ?
The reason the damage is high is because his target is one of the glassiest targets you can create in the game. Most mesmers run blink, which would have negated both the stun and moved him out of the thief’s burst. But you are looking at the wrong part anyway, the mesmers main mistake was when he just ran straight by the thief.
I don’t even think the guy needed to pan his camera to see the thief, I’m pretty sure he saw him and just kept on running. I can’t be 100% certain but I see the mesmer using a sword and what is likely a pistol, which is a pretty common mesmer combo. If the mesmer was an aware person and saw a thief lurking for a burst, he could have used pistol 5 to stun, pistol 4 to get up a duelist, and then use blurred frenzy to stop the thief from initiating burst. I don’t even play mesmer but I know that this guy could have done.
The thief landing his burst in this fashion is the culmination of several mistakes by the mesmer and the thief executing his damage rotation. Stopping the damage rotation from happening on the thief’s terms is just as important as evading/escaping their burst mid combo.
And? The video still doesn’t show anything of value. The mesmer is obviously a very bad player (runs right next to a thief, uses no breaks) and probably using berserker’s amulet, meaning he is close to as squishy as you can be in this game, being a scholar class with no additional toughness.
What I found interesting in the video was the 2 hits from the mesmer’s rockdog did 4k damage, which is about 25% of the thiefs total hp pool.
Hot join footage is really representative of balance. It was actually more like 2.x seconds as well.
What isn’t shown by this video, for the next 45seconds to a minute the thief will die if a strong breeze picks up and does not pack anything near the punch of their initial burst.
In 1 on 1s against backstab thieves it comes down to how well do you react to their burst and apply your counter burst. In my encounters with them, one of us is normally dead in under 10 seconds and while I don’t keep statistics I would say that the score in these 1 on 1s is in my favor. Backstab thieves shine in small engagements of 1v1 and start to lose value at about the 3v3 level.
In 4v4 and 5v5 fights I think that backstab builds are a liability to their team. I have seen numerous times where a backstab thief pops stealth at near full life and by the time it fades they have dropped to incidental AE damage, which normally gets a couple chuckles from my teammates.
Backstab thief has a very low skill requirement to play effectively against inexperienced, low quality competition. However, against a good team, backstab thieves are one of the more difficult specs to play effectively. There would not be nearly as much crying about thieves if all the maps were 5v5 and thieves couldn’t hide behind a zerg of allies when their abilities are on CD.
I play engineer.
If an NFL player has a string of bad games what stops him from going and joining a high school team and doing some ganking? Shame. His time commitment and inherent skill at the game has been branded on him also his age would make it difficult. In real world spots you having pairing provided through leagues and safe guards in place that generally prevent a group of players from one league of crossing over to other
This analogy is just so hilariously bad that I had to quote it for posterity.
When is your next video debut Merciless? Your fans are waiting…
I think its hilarious how much someone will cry because their class doesn’t bring everything needed to win against every opponent in a team game.
I had 24 first place tournament chests in my inventory when the patch went live, opening them all gave I think 3 halloween weapons.
Stop making false defenses Aydenunited. They didn’t really try anything different other than having a 3 round single elimination tournament rather than straight match making. There are a lot of complaints regarding that, but they can’t even get the system they implemented to work correctly.
I do enjoy the game and thats why I am so frustrated that ArenaNet is basically letting a community die that they created with their pre-launch hype of GW2 E-sports. Everything that ArenaNet has done (excluding balance) in terms of PvP since release is pretty much a complete joke when taken in context of both the content of the rest of the game and when taken in comparison to other competitive PvP games.
It seems ArenaNet is either incompetent or put the interns in charge of SPvP updates. Before everyone goes into their defenses of ArenaNet and how “young” this game is compared to other competitive games, I would like to make a couple points.
This game has had a 5 year development life cycle. This game also had months of closed alpha/beta testing as well as a 3 month period over which open beta testing occurred. The PvE side of things received 10+ large zones, hundreds of DEs, quests etc with voice overs.
PvPers got 4 maps, 1 which by consensus is a complete P.o.S. We got 8v8 hot join servers on maps designed for 10 players. After getting strung along for over a month regarding upcoming changes, PvPers thought we would finally have a chance at some competitive play, but ArenaNet has managed to break not only paid tournaments, but the tournaments that were already working correctly.
This is in the process of creating a new tournament system which was identical to the first except it had a cost to enter and different prizes at the end.
I can not imagine the nightmares involved in ArenaNet rolling out a rating system. But I guess when that happens at least we will have leprechauns in the Mists to chase or something when its released with the St. Patrick’s day event.
The Gospel, according to Isabis.
@Aexy I don’t even know how you came across the idea that there would be nothing for casuals and random groups if they implemented ratings. If there were ratings those groups would play against people with close to the same ratings, allowing casuals to play each other and the good teams to play each other which is what everyone wants.
Yet you somehow take that piece of information and say that there would be no place for casuals. Please have some idea of what you are discussing before posting.
If you use the same major traits in PvE/WvWvW and PvP, then going from the PvE/WvWvW area to the mists will reset them.
@Ksp
That statistic about seeing the Thief 90% of the time, even if fighting somebody…
Let’s go through this again.
Stealth.
I’m not like you, feeling down and saying it’s my own fault when I get killed by a Thief who was invisible and did over 10k dmg.
I don’t think to myself, “Well, gee, that invisible Thief wouldn’t have killed me like that if I just learn to play.”
No, I say, “Well, not really much I could have done there. I couldn’t see him. Why can they do this much damage again?”
And the reason I ask this type of question and make this kind of statement is because, having played numerous other PvP games, I have never seen anything like the Thief in this game. And there’s a reason all the Thief defenders make ridiculous statements like yours.
You are not under powered.
Your skills are not terrible compared to the other classes.
You have the best defense mechanism in the game, Stealth. A lot of it.
You control the fight.
This is the mindset of so many players, and it is hilarious. Actually, yes, you did make a mistake. Look you have already made a video, you can’t hide behind some veil trying to pretend you are good, everyone knows you are a laugh track of mistakes while playing. Maybe put out another video and my guild and I can watch it and provide the recorded laugh track for you to edit in?
Uh. If 40% of a top pvp team are thieves, it means thieves are viable in tPvP. No fallacies in logic.
Well that isn’t the case. In fact, I would love to know of a “top team” that even runs more than 1 thief.
Oh, its this guy again. This is a great and constructive post. Being at the “top of the board” definitely shows who had the biggest impact on the match as well.
I can’t wait until your next revelation of PvP truth arrives.
There is no ranking at all coming with the upcoming Paid Tournaments. You will apparently be getting qualifier points for monthly/yearly tournaments but they have not released any information on that as far as I know.
Anything regarding how those points will work is purely speculation.
I think its funny that 2 of the biggest proponents of K:D are two people with giant egos (bishopx and bunzy who both played rift) and would claim to be the best but always had plenty of excuses for their frequent losses.
Especially when Bunzy says his reasoning behind wanting to see it is to “see how beast he is”
I think swapping weapons/characters is fine before the match but should not happen after the match begins. If any weapon swapping is allowed after the match starts it should only be in the spawn area.
The really “pro” way to do it is to start using your ring of warding then use judge’s intervention before it activates so they are trapped and had no chance to escape it.
Well a main reason that only TPvP is important is the fact that the maps were designed for 5 players not 8, so TPvP is the only place where the game is even being played the way it was designed to be played.
You might ask, why aren’t hot join servers 5v5? The official ArenaNet party line is that it is so new players do not get harassed for causing their team to lose and to mitigate the impact of people entering and leaving the game. I think a side reason is that it will increase custom server rentals because 8v8 is so bad people would be willing to spend money to avoid it.
Part of the reason thieves seem so OP in hotjoin is because it is so much more chaotic with the increased number of players and lack of focus fire that thieves are able to deal their damage more efficiently and escape more efficiently than they can in a TPvP environment. There is a lot more CC flying around setting them up for kills as well.
No, toughness is worthless, Armor is superior because it includes toughness + defense, which gives you your actual damage mitigation. A 1500 toughness Ele and 1500 Toughness Warrior are in very different boats regarding damage mitigation.
I’m not a thief, but my god the tears are never ending. Thieves are not OP, L2P.
Resetting the fight might be an effective strategy in SPvP where holding points means nothing to the participants but it is pretty useless in TPvP.
I like how Merciless has demonstrated his opinions have no value at all but then still comes around and parades them as fact.
And yet you and all the other trolls never posted up a video to counter my points. Keep trolling away with your valuable opinions.
And Winterfell, for most of your clips it was you + 1 vs a Guardian taking him down, or, like in the second video, you Moa’d a Guardian, runs away for a bit, comes back, and still takes forever to take him down. And… you play a Mesmer. We don’t all have access to kittentorms, shatters, and iWINmoa.
Look man, the reason people don’t have footage lying around is because going for 1 on 1 against a bunker guardian is NOT A TIME EFFECTIVE STRATEGY. It is not that they can not be defeated 1 on 1, it is that in general they can not be defeated 1 on 1 before assistance arrives.
Initiating a 1 on 1 with a guardian is fine as long as you have plans for a teammate to come join in at some point to help finish off the job because the guardian will have help from teammates arriving almost every time.
There are some times where it is worthwhile to try to fight a bunker 1 on 1 on their point but those occurences are few and far between.
If you think bunkers are so easy to play an unkillable, how about you log on a bunker and I will 1 on 1 you on my engi?
The better you get the “slower” things will start to feel as your actions require less thinking and become more of a reaction. Just keep working on figuring out what was the right move in each situation and work on making them 2nd nature.
2030 armor is about as glass cannon as you can get.
I would say that anything under 2400 armor is pretty glassy, 2400-2700 is hyrbrid and 2700+ is tanky. This is obviously not the complete story, the defensive and healing capabilities of your class are a large factor. A class with lots of protection/regen uptime or escapes can get away with having lower hps/armor than others and still be very tanky.
Funny thing is in Mists tell me how a scholar can get higher armor value?
Soldiers amulet or Cleric amulet?
2030 armor is about as glass cannon as you can get.
I would say that anything under 2400 armor is pretty glassy, 2400-2700 is hyrbrid and 2700+ is tanky. This is obviously not the complete story, the defensive and healing capabilities of your class are a large factor. A class with lots of protection/regen uptime or escapes can get away with having lower hps/armor than others and still be very tanky.
I like how Merciless has demonstrated his opinions have no value at all but then still comes around and parades them as fact.
It isn’t that the guardian can not be defeated 1 on 1, it is that they can not be defeated in a time effective manner for the majority of classes, and those that can are pretty exposed to someone coming to assist the guardian.
Guardians
Probably the easiest of the bunkers to play at a “passable” level. They tend to be built with good armor and hp pools and bring condition removal and protective buffs to the fight.
Elementalist
Probably the best condition removal of the bunkers and brings the most combo fields. Probably the most susceptible to burst of all the bunkers. Brings a lot to team fights.
Engineer
Has the least group buffs and condition removal, has the best CC access. Can be built very tanky. Very strong in bunker vs bunker scenarios (although those are very rare).
Warrior
Has high base defenses/hps but low sustainability and a lack of defensive buffs. Can get decent condi removal but nothing special. Good cc potential though.
Necro
Doesn’t provide many buffs for the team but has good survivability and team fight presence.
Pretty short descriptions but i think it hits their main points.
I am primarily a TPvPer and I have just recently began playing WvWvW when my team isn’t online. In general I prefer small scale PvP, and in games like DAOC or Shadowbane I was often part of a group that would harass zergs on their outskirts and try to break it apart. When attempting this in Guildwars 2 I noticed several mechanics which favor the large zergs over small groups of players.
One of the reasons picking on the outskirts of zergs is effective in other games is because zergs tend to be less organized than smaller groups and have slower response times to a member being picked off or harassed in their back lines, especially when in transit between two areas.
So why is this strategy not as effective in GW2? The primary issue is the difference between in-combat movement speed and out of combat movement speed. If your group attacks the tail end of a zerg, say 2 stragglers at the back of a group of 30, maybe 5-10seconds behind the main pack. Even if you were to kill the 2 stragglers in under 10 seconds, and it took the zerg 10-15 seconds to realize what was happening, your team would easily be chased down by the group of people running at out of combat speed. If even one of the stragglers is on voice comm, improving the response time of the zerg, it becomes impossible to escape. There is no possibility of successfully disengaging from a fight with a zerg.
In addition to the factors which make it extremely difficult to bring down stragglers in a zerg, the game mechanics make it so that there is no impact on the zerg for allowing those players to die. Even if your small group, downs and stomps the straggler, the entire zerg can come back, and if they choose to not run you down with their massive out of combat speed advantage, they can simply revive their teammates corpses and carry on.
The final mechanic which promotes zerging is simply map design. Everything is too confined and cramped together. Besides simply killing a zerg, another way to effectively "defeat"them, is to waste their time by attracting its attention and bringing them on a huge chase out of the way of their objective. The current maps do not allow for this at all and within a minute, or two at most, you will find yourself facing some walls.
I do not know the best way to alleviate these issues, I have a couple ideas but I do not think they are the best fix, just maybe the way to get the ball rolling on some ideas. I feel like there are two approaches that can be taken, either give incentives to the small group players, or give disincentives to the zergs.
I think all the incentives/disincentives should be based around mitigating the game mechanic bonus zergs have. My first idea is a debuff for the zerg, when a certain of number of allied players are in a relatively close proximity to one another, they receive a debuff. I would envision this debuff as something that either tied their combat status completely together or one which provided an across the board movement speed decrease. Zergs would keep their power but they would become slow moving armies in comparison to the agile, smaller guerrilla groups. If the route of incentives for the small groups were chosen I think they should receive a buff that increases movement speed and allow for their stomps to send people back to spawn unable to be revived at the point of their death.
Maybe I am off base here and these changes aren’t needed at all but it seems like everyone I have spoke to is a little off-put by the amount of zerging in WvWvW and I think the zerging is so prevalent because of map design and game mechanics (hi 5 max target AEs). Zergs have a inherent advantage simply due to their sheer numbers, providing these extra incentives seems excessive.
TL;DR : Make zergs slower or small groups faster
(edited by Seether.7285)
One of the most reliable ways to spot a bad player is based on how much they whine about bunkers.
Shaolin, that is absolutely incorrect, characters built with the tools to bring bunkers down can do so solo, although that is normally not a very efficient way to things. Just because you are not capable of creating the right build/using them effectively does not mean they do not exist.
There is a delay every time, sorry that’s just how the animation is. Believe me, I am aware of the “standard” combos.
For those unaware, the #5 ability on the rifle is called jump shot, which is an ability that does damage at your starting location, and propels you to your target location, doing more damage when you land there.
This ability has some great potential as both a damaging ability and to a lesser extent a movement ability, however, they are both held up by the same issue. The issue affecting this skill is that regardless of the distance your character spends maybe 1/4 of a second floating above the final destination before doing the damage.
This ability has a very small damage radius, and like all other ground AoEs, the red outline is displayed before you land. The small AE size in conjunction with the telegraphing of the damage as well as the final delay before damage occurs makes this ability nearly impossible to use against competent players that are not CCed in place for the full duration.
I imagine that maybe ArenaNet put in the delayed landing to limit its strength against opponents in close range so maybe a minimum time of being in the air could be implemented if it would be too strong in close range if the landing was changed.
Anyone else agree that the landing should be altered?
As Milo stated, while the video is not about the OP, the fact that he is giving his opinion on changes that should be made when he isn’t using the tools available to him in even a remotely correct fashion, then his opinion isn’t exactly valid.
You don’t need to do more than watch how he moves to know he is bad. In case that isn’t clear enough, you can see how he stands on point to fight a melee guardian 1 on 1 on a point the guardian controls and does not try to use range to his advantage or CCs to neutralize the point.
Look, no one likes being told that their opinion is meaningless, but when a player has an extremely limited understanding of how to play their own class, their opinions on the relative strength of other classes is pretty worthless.
@Soysauce there is a reason the top teams don’t run 2 guardians 2 thieves 1 mesmer like you said, and it isn’t because they want a challenge.
Sorrow, I can’t argue against your point on 1 because agreeing “how bad” someone isn’t something that can be really accomplished at an objective level but they did not seem to use any of the counters which all 3 of them have available to them.
When that skill has a 180s cd, roots you in place and has a super obvious animation, yes, I think it is a fair skill. It is annoying to get moaed but your greatest defense against it should be avoiding it in the first place.
If you see a guardian controlling a point you should be bringing one of two things to the fight, a build that has ample knockback/cc to neutralize the point, or a build that can burst a guardian down effectively solo, such as a condi bomb/grenade engi.
Some necro builds can be effective against guardians, but this build in this players hands has no chance of killing any half decent guardian. The necro could have done the same damage he did without taking any himself or forcing the guardian off the point by attacking from the window. Yet he goes right up onto the point to fight the guardian in melee range.
If you play bad, you won’t be able to beat many classes, especially classes designed to win/prolong 1v1s.
Morale in WvW - Get rid of that scoreboard and incentivize playing, not winning!
in WvW
Posted by: Seether.7285
Why on earth would I spend gold to lose a match I have no chance of winning?
Until ANet can provide a decent answer to this question, WvWvW will have this problem.
Because spending your gold in a match you are winning or losing in are equally as pointless in the long run since they mean nothing?
Sorrow, he survived long against 3 players because the 3 players were horrible. Look at the video, it’s pretty apparent.
Moa is annoying, but getting hit by Moa in a 1 on 1 is just LOL. OP just stands there with full stamina and gets Moaed.
It is a team game and his team should be letting him know about enemy troop movements, but you can tell that him and his team is bad, as evidenced by a necro trying to 1 on 1 a guardian twice at clock tower, especially when you have this necro behind the controls.
This video and thread are great evidence that the people that complain the loudest often have the most to learn about game mechanics and strategy.
When you play like that, a lot of things will feel “OP”. Sorry man but your video isn’t evidence of very much other than you have a lot to learn still about the game.
Hint: If you are fighting a guardian that only has melee weapons on a point they already control, how about use range instead of fight on top of them and get exposed for playing poorly?
(edited by Seether.7285)
Since the blog post was just what devs had already posted on the forums with more words.....
in PvP
Posted by: Seether.7285
Could we get any actual information regarding the new features and when they are planned to be rolled out? Yes, yes, I know, they will be out “when it’s ready” but can we get some idea of how long we can expect to wait?
Obviously giving concrete dates to expect things is not the best business decision but can we get some vague time windows for the various upcoming features?
To be honest I would have never expected the game to be lacking so many important PvP features at this point. I know my guild and I expected the game to launch with private servers and figured that spectator mode would be arriving about now. What we have come to see is that SPvP is obviously very low on the totem poll when it comes to importance.
There are many teams out there that want to see a competitive community develop, even jumping through the hoops of the current system to sync queue, but this is extremely time inefficient and a general PITA. Spending 5 hours attempting to sync queue would probably get you as many competitive matches as spending 1 hour on a private server with the team you were trying to face. If private servers are only a week or two away then its worthwhile to keep practicing and staying on top of your game. However, if private servers are something like 2months+ away then it might be better for many teams to stop playing and wait for private servers.
Jon Peter’s alluded in the blog post that this is just the tip of the iceberg for SPvP, but I feel it is more akin to them giving PvPers the “tip” by releasing no real information, just a giant tease.
Elementalists need some love with their sustained dps builds, but a lot of the crying about being underpowered is from people who aren’t using the class anywhere near its potential.
Yes the elementalist is much more difficult to play at a “passable” level and not be total cannon fodder compared to other classes, but an elementalist played close to its potential can be extremely effective.
Nurt gave a pretty solid breakdown.
thats why i quit the game …
So many Guardians, Engineers, Earth ele in this game … It’s all about how good are you in “Bunkering”
This team should have been unbeatable then, right?