Guild Wars 2

So what can we use that fits the 5 sec window?

@ silver
These are ingame numbers (rounded down for easier calculations) . You do tests in a controlled environment relying on math for the RNG (crit chance, crit procs). We have no meters, how else do you expect we come up with numbers?

How about you do some tests then?

@ ojimaru
Its a control group. For the same gear and trait investment, in a “perfect setting” you see how an “optimized” FT measures up to non-optimized rifle and bomb.

I want to measure dps. To do that everything else (but the weapon) must be the same.

@ Ojimaru
Yes.

It just means you scale with power more per sec with just auto.
FT 1.5/2.25 ~ 0.667
rifle 0.599/0.75 ~ 0.799

But we can’t look at FT for its auto alone anymore. The dead zone for FT2 is gone. You have to look at FT1 with FT2 now.

How bout “pets become invulnerable while you dodge”

google.3709:

lol… true, i forgot about the limitation !! oh well, i still think that those changes would have a positive impact on FT

and currently FT is not really a sPvP or WvW weapon :P! its for mainly PvE for people who likes burn things, but if more utility is added it could be

It did improve. With bomb as the melee (100%) standard (melee does 2x range damage for the risk of being at melee) and rifle as the ranged (50%) standard, FT did improve because now we can add FT2 to FT1.

My numbers
FT: 1442 dps
FT1 + FT2 dps: 1792 dps or 1863 dps
Rifle: 1283 dps
Rifle + static discharge: 1730 dps
Bomb: 3549 or 3723 dps

Taken from https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Flamethrower-is-still-not-worth-the-slot/page/3#post1543382

The most FT1 can hit for is 30x (10x each target, 3targets). If you are hitting 5 targets, they will on average be hit 6x each, LOWERING your dps per target by a lot.

How often are you purposely fighting 3 to 5 targets (now without the mega lifesteal food)? How often do you get 5 players (not monsters) bunched up? How often do you fight more than 1 boss at a time?

This is to compare FT1+FT2 with rifle1 + static discharge and plain bomb1. These numbers are the lower values taken from tests so take it with a grain of salt.

Uses http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQBgEYUBAA9AAAAQkCAA4TBAA
10/30/0/20/10 in favor of FT
3141 attack
56% crit 196% crit damage
bleed damage = 58
burn damage = 404
Assuming a really long time frame
(x stacks of bleed for y sec) = (y stacks of bleed for x sec)
(x stacks of vulnerability for y sec) = (y stacks of vulnerability for x sec)
Sharp Shooter ~ 1 stack 3sec bleed at 30% chance on crit (0sec icd, meaning “per attack”)
~ 58 × 3 × 0.3 × 0.56
~ 29 dps per attack
Incendiary Powder ~ 2sec burn at 33% chance on crit (3sec icd)
~ (404 × 2/3) x 0.33 × 0.56
~ 50 dps
Precise Sights ~ +1% direct damage for 3sec at 50% on crit (0sec icd , means “per attack”)
~ 3% x 0.5 × 0.56
~ 0.84% more direct damage per attack
Shrapnel ~ 1 stack 13sec bleed at 15% chance (0sec icd, means per attack)
~ 58 × 13 × .15
~ 113 dps per attack

FT ~1500 normal damage at 56% crit + 404 burn damage over 2.25sec
~ ((1500 × 0.44) + (1500 × 1.96 × 0.56) + 404)/2.25
~ (660 + 1647 + 404)/2.25
~ 1204
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 5 attacks per sec
~ +145
With incendiary powder +50 dps
With precise sights + 0.84% x 5 attacks x (2307)/2.25
~ +43dps
Total FT dps ~ 1442 dps

With Flame blast (roughly) 1800 detonate damage + 700 path damage
notes
- you can detonate as soon as you use the skill via double tapping 2 but you lose out on the path damage(0.5sec cast)
- you can wait about half a sec for the path damage to hit at melee(1sec cast)
- your cycle will be 2 flame jets + 1 flame blast over about 5.5sec
Without path damage
~((1800 × 0.44) + (1800 × 1.96 × 0.56))
~792 + 1976
~2768
2flame jets is 4.5sec
~4.5 × 1442
~6489
+ FT1
~(6489 + 2768)/(4.5 + 0.5)
~1851dps
No incendiary powder because the 2nd FT1 will already have triggered it
With sharpshooter +29dps per attack 1 attack per cycle
+29
With precise sights + 0.84% x 1 attack x (2306)/5 sec cycle
+4

With path damage
~((2500 × 0.44) + (2500 × 1.96 × 0.56)
~1100 + 2744
~3844
+FT1
~(6489 + 3844)/(4.5 + 1)
~1879dps
No incendiary powder because the 2nd FT1 will already have triggered it
With sharpshooter +29dps per attack 2 attacks per cycle
+58
With precise sights + 0.84% x 2 attacks x (3383)/5.5 sec cycle
+10
Total FT1 + FT2 dps ~ 1884 dps (without path damage) or 1947 dps (with path damage)

Rifle ~ 600 normal damage at 56% crit over 0.75sec
~ ((600 × 0.44) + (600 × 1.96 × 0.56))/0.75
~ (264 + 659)/0.75
~ 1230
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 1.33 attack per sec
~ +39
With incendiary powder + 50 dps
With precise sights + 0.84% x 1.33 attack x 1230
~ +14
Total rifle dps ~ 1283 dps

gonna leave out precise sights for static discharge

With static discharge (roughly 450 damage) via surprise shot (roughly 500 damage)
~((950 × 0.44) + (950 × 1.96 × 0.56))/9
~(418 + 1043)/9
~162 dps
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 2 attacks per 9 sec
~6
No incendiary powder due to rifle 1 activating it

With static discharge via throw wrench (900 × 2) every 20.5 sec
~((2250 × 0.44) + (2250 × 1.96 × 0.56))/20.5
~(990 + 2470)/20.5
~169 dps
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 3 attacks every 20.5 sec
~4

With static discharge via battering ram (1200) every 25.25 sec
~((1650 × 0.44) + (1650 × 1.96 × 0.56))/25.25
~(726 + 1811)/25.25
~100 dps
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 2 attacks per 9 sec
~6

Total rifle1 + static discharge ~ 1730 dps

Bomb ~ 1100 normal damage at 56% crit over 0.5sec
~ ((1100 × 0.44) + (1100 × 1.96 × 0.56))/0.5
~ (484 + 1207)/0.5
~ 3382 dps
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 2 attacks per sec
~ +58
With incendiary powder + 51 dps
With precise sights +0.84% x 2 attacks x 3382
~ +57
With shrapnel +113 dps per attack 2 attacks per sec
~ +226
Total bomb dps ~ 3549 dps(incendiary powder) 3723 dps (shrapnel)

FT: 1442 dps
FT1 + FT2 dps: 1792 dps or 1863 dps
Rifle: 1283 dps
Rifle + static discharge: 1730 dps
Bomb: 3549 or 3723 dps

Please note that both the rifle and bomb are lacking their +10% damage traits. It got better (but still doing ranged dps at melee).

Retaliation does damage per hit made. FT can hit 5x per sec vs 1 target. Bomb can hit 2x per sec vs 1 target. Grenades can hit 4x (6x if traited) per sec vs 1 target.

It does about at least 200 damage per instance of retaliation. I say “at least” because you can increase damage by increasing the power of the boon’s source. There is also the sentence saying “Intensity can be stacked up to 5 times.”

Retaliation punishes multi hit abilities.

It’s not an “attack” so I believe it goes through toughness/armor like conditions.

FT2 could only detonate at 600 range before (giving it a dead zone of 360). The only intersection with FT1 would be at ranged 360-425 (a 65 range window). Connect the dots.

Because now you don’t need to stay at 600 for the detonation. You can detonate at 0 for a blast radius of 240 for more reliable damage (0 flight time is huge).

Are you really asking how 425 is not ranged?

FYI, it’s lower than rifle. The reason FT get’s compared to bomb is because bomb adhere’s to anet’s philosophy that melee does more damage due to the risk involved with being at melee. The change to FT 2 just solidified its range as a melee kit. For a melee kit (after attaching all its bells and whistles) to do just a little bit less than a ranged weapon (rifle), it’s ridiculous.

Uh, bomb has a pulsing blind and a knock back on a more reliable AoE (circle not cone).

Here’s my take on FT1 since I really hate how it is now.

FT1
2sec channel
Damage 10 (x10)
Damage vs burning 500 (x10)
Burning at 200 distance 0.4 sec
Burning at 400 distance 0.2 sec

Isn’t incendiary powder enough?

RaynStargaze.6510:

Good patch!

They tried to make most kits a bit more viable and fixed some really needed bugs like the flamethrower air blast miss. FT is pretty darn awesome now.

Kit refinement change is pretty weird if its really as confuse as mentioned in the other thread – need to test moar.

See, this is the irresponsible crap FT advocates do on these forums. Saying something is “awesome” without a reference is just irresponsible.

The FT is “awesome” compared to its pre patch version (duh!).
The FT is still crap compared to other engg options with the same role.

The devs basically spent time developing a crappy kit to a new level of crappy.

Thumper turret or rifle turret? They’re kinda similar in that you get 2 knock backs in the same time (50sec), but you don’t need to rely on the rifle turret to live.

Punkins.2087:

Uhhh..

You bring in toolbelt damage for grenades, but neglect to use incendiary ammo for the flamethrower??

You bring in kit refinement damage for grenades, but fail to do the same for flamethrower??

You included damage from rifle5 for grenades, but not for flamethrower??

.. static discharge…

You see what I did there.

I think you should rerun your tests, or just fix the math..

Surprise surprise!! Adding toolbelt damage on a build that is highly dependent on the toolbelt. Adding the rifle gap closer damage on a build that requires said gap closer. Whodathunk?

aydenunited.5729:

FT is and has been a staple kit in any sPvP build that has any focus on conditions at all, and definately has a place in several builds… now, because of the condition removal “nerf” alongside EG, I think it’s only drawback is you won’t see as many FT/EG builds. Not like you see many Engies to begin with, but these two kits were part of a build that was basically immune to conditions, which is, I am assuming, part of the reason for the “nerf”

Anyway, short version… FT is a good kit and it just improved a bit.

I honestly don’t understand why people keep saying this “FT … conditions”. What does the FT do with conditions that no other engg option can? The on crit traits are available to every kit/weapon. Is it that FT1 does 5 attacks per sec? Grenades do 6 attacks per sec.

He argues because he can’t accept how he was horribly wrong. Doing 50% less damage after applying this imaginary functionality is no joke. 5% is min/maxing, 50% is not.

I would like for it to apply a 2sec burn at the start. Then reduce the base damage to 1 with a clause “increase damage to (what ever the current base damage is now) if the target is burning”.

Burning, burning everywhere!!

It is if you use the FT (your own fault if you do) or the EG.

I think they don’t want us to chain refinement procs in quick succession.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Flamethrower isn’t suppose to compete with Grenade or Bomb kit for damage.

Why not? FT has no unique uses to it.
FT vs nades (used at melee)
FT does 5 attacks per sec. Nades do 6 attacks per sec.
FT applies 1 stack of vulnerability at 50% per crit (with precise sights). Nades apply 1 stack per hit 100%
FT applies 3sec bleed on crit at 30% chance. Nades apply 15sec bleed on hit at 15% (no need for crit)

FT vs bomb
No contest. Raw, untraited bombs do more everything than a fully traited FT (maybe not the 1sec burn every 2sec).

DreamOfACure.4382:

Its strengths lie in its consistent damage output and the Juggernaut trait that grants higher defenses and a damage boost.

How is any other option the engg has any less “consistent damage output”? Even with the might from juggernaut, you still do less. You could even say the FT is less consistent since the kit has no means to stay at melee, should a target disengage.

DreamOfACure.4382:

It’s a bruiser’s ideal weapon.

This is nothing but flavor text (bruiser wasn’t even defined).

DreamOfACure.4382:

Also – Flame Jet’s attack is focused towards where the camera is pointing, not where necessarily where your flames are going.

Flamethrower was already half-decent before these buffs. It’s a great weapon for toughness/healing builds. Now it’s perfect!

Really? Toughness/healing? Really? At least you’re right about “half decent”

DreamOfACure.4382:

Just being able to detonate Flame Blast means our DPS goes up by like a good 10~20%.
That +10% against burning enemies and the +2 sec burning from skill3 weren’t even necessary.

Now the FT2 is a great change, I’ll agree on that. It basically solidified the FT’s range as melee (no more part melee part ranged crap).

Test numbers at https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Flamethrower-oriented-support/first#post1460594 Juggernaut + deadly mixtures FT + rifle / bomb without their respective +10% damage traits.

I used it going up to 80 (cuz of the life steal pies) and going up to fractal 10 (cuz of the life steal pies). It got harder with increasing fractals levels, but I liked it. I had to work getting out of the range limbo between FT1 and FT2, but I liked it.

With plans to go to fractal 20 (possibly higher) I compared FT 1 to rifle1 to see how much more damage I was doing in melee with the FT. I found out I was doing less.

My opinion may be “mine”, but it is based on tests with actual numbers behind it. You never even tested yours out (yet you preach as though it were fact).

Saying something “rocks” because you are unaware of how much better other options are doesn’t make it rock. So yeah, happiness does come from being unaware of your own misery.

FT5 is 1 time use melee blind on a melee kit that has no mobility, making it only useful against slow attacking mobs. It does nothing against the plethora of multi-hit nukes available in the game.

FT3 is an UNRELIABLE knock back BECAUSE it’s a cone.

Now this is ignoring the fact that FT1 is a melee ability that does HALF melee damage (the change to FT2 solidifies the FT as a melee kit). Add them all together and you get the conclusion that FT is still not worth the utility slot

On the comment about “reducing aoe” (cleaves, bounces, etc)

Warriors just got an additional cleave (banner auto) to their already long list of cleaves, yet it’s too much for necros to gain 1 through axes.

This vision anet has of versatility via kits does not exists. Kit’s are sub par by default. You need traits to bring them up to par or better. When you spend your traits to bring up 1 kit, you leave out the other kits as sub par.

What the kits need to validate the claim of “versatility” are traits that affect all kits. Traits like backpack regenerator, kit refinement, and speedy kits.

We need stuff to happen when equipping or stowing a kit (like when traited, a necro can cast spells, gain buffs when entering DS, or heal when they leave DS) for the said kit to be worth the utility slot. Hell, FT and EG are better condition cleansers with kit refinement than cleaning formula 409.

Xelphias.7980:

As far as I can tell I don’t have any real issues with FT. People talk about the burn damage being weak or ineffective but I don’t really feel it. Autofire has my torch going full bore almost constantly, and I deal really solid damage with it across the board, pve or pvp. It just takes some playing with it to learn the angles for it.

What I’m about to say is tested and proven. It has been accepted by those who actually care about how much damage they really do. This has been accepted by those considerate enough to know they should not get carried by their group. This has been accepted by those considerate enough to know not to pull down their group.

The FT is a melee kit that does half of melee damage. How is it solid damage across the board, when you are doing half the damage you should be doing?

AryasRevenge.3175:

tokyoshoe.6308:

I believe swapping attunements on an Elementalist actually COUNTS as “On Weapon Swap”. If I remember right, this was patched in back in October some time.

Just like i mentioned up there, elementalist attunments count as weapon exchange, theyre “stuck” with them but a engeneeir can choose not to equip any kit, wich brings my suggestion.

And that choice comes at the cost of losing out on “on swap” sigils.

GS swoop to downed target.
Quick stomp
Sword/x evade out

So… do I want control over my turret, or do I want a glorified throw mine. With the kitten AI (how can a turret placed directly below claw or jormag not attack), they may as well be visible/killable mines.

On swap sigils are pretty good for enggs since we don’t get locked out of weapon skills for swapping.

Anyone know how sigil of intelligence works with multi hit skills?

Now this is priceless. You haven’t even actually tested it yourself, yet you go around preaching it as if it were the truth.

FT 1 with incendiary ammo will show 8sec (at most) of burn duration after 1 breath of FT 1. It takes 2.25 sec to complete 1 breath so add that to the 8sec.

3(IA hit 1) + 3(IA hit 2) + 3(IA hit 3) + 1(FT1 last hit) = 10
Subtract 2 sec to account FT1’s channel and you get 8 sec, tada!!

An easier way to test this is to simply count the number of times the burn damage pops up. 1 tic of burn damage means burn lasted at least (I say at least because duration sometimes show fractions) 1 sec. 10 tics of burn damage means burn lasted at least 10 sec

Actually do some tests before you spew out even more misinformation.

EDIT Lol how we both use “tada”. Was gonna edit for the pic, but there was no need to when I saw Kamahl’s post.

We already have weapon swaps. In fact, our is superior now that we get our weapons stats and sigils in pve. Ours is superior in that we have practically no weapon swap CD. We get to use on swap sigils without locking ourselves out of our desired weapon.

I can start with grenade kit and swap to heal kit for an aoe chill on swap and simply go right back to grenade kit.

Do we even need signets?

OMG! First its the unsubstantiated claims that FT does good damage (melee kit doing HALF melee damage). Now it’s “burn doesn’t stack duration”.

STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION!!

Nretep.2564:

He once said “scepter clones use the original ether bolt”, so I guessed he got it wrong.

Already pointed out by Pyroatheist

Nretep.2564:

Case1: iDuelist
iDPS1 = phanDmg * hitCount / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 200 * 8 / 7.6 * (20 + 80% * (150% + 20%)) phantasmal haste brings that down to 6.5 instead of 7.6
= ~328 [dps] 384

bDPS1 = bleedDmg * hitBleedCount * hitDmgCount / rechargeTime * critChance
= 102 * 5 * 8 / 7.6 * 80 phantasmal haste brings that down to 6.5 instead of 7.6
= ~429 [dps] 502

mDPS1 = 0 [dps]

tDPS1 = iDPS1 + bDPS1 + mDPS1
= 328 + 429 + 0
= 757 [dps] 886

Case2: cScepter
iDPS2 = clonDmg / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 7 / 2 * (40 + 60% * (150% + 20%)) ; (not 80% because clones don’t get phantasmal fury)
= ~5 [dps]

bDPS2 = bleedDmg * hitBleedCount / rechargeTime * critChance
= 102 * 5 / 2 * 60 ;(here again, not 80%)
= ~153 [dps]

mDPS2 = mesmDmg / rechargeTime * (%normal + critChance * (150 + critDmg))
= 1050 / 2 * (40 + 60% * (150% + 20%)) ; (not 80% because you don’t get phantasmal fury)
= 746 [dps]

cDPS = cDDPS + cBDPS
= 5 + 153 + 764 5 + 153 + 746
= 922 [dps][/spoiler] 904

So, assuming you just stand around while having three iDuelists, it’s 757 886dps (+ two iDuelists) and 922 [b]904[b] dps (+ two iDuelists) when you attack with scepter’s autoattack only.

Sweet!! 18 dps diff.

To clarify, these are NOT TOOL TIP numbers. These are my numbers rounded down (for easier calculation (and I didn’t want to spend time taking the lowest and highest values to get an average). These are higher than my tool tip numbers (and slightly lower than my actual).

Gaiawolf.8261:

No. In his calculations he includes the scepter auto attack as part of his clone+2 duelists DPS. He wants to decide if auto-attacking (him + 1 clone + 2 duelists) will yield better DPS than not auto-attacking (3 duelists doing their thing with no clone to overwrite a duelist).

How can people still not get this?

Sweet, the difference is getting smaller and smaller. Keep the edits coming.

pdboddy.4162:

Seetoo.9316:

How about change the cd (15s like the attunements). That basically changes them to “weapon swaps” with the least amount of effort

Fiery Greatsword, Lightning Hammer and Icy Longbow are too strong for such short cooldowns.

How are they too strong when the individual cd’s of each skill will still be cooling down even after recasting.

My only beef with the scepter is the clone generation on the auto attack.

2 and 3 could be a blur and gap creator.

How about change the cd (15s like the attunements). That basically changes them to “weapon swaps” with the least amount of effort

Master of Timespace.2548:

Staff / GS if you just want to dps a boss. Spam iwarlocks and iphantasams and autoattack with gs. With right setup those warlocks crit 5-9k each. GS clones are also superior since they attack 3 times, thus stacking more bleed than others.

And none of that matters because we are optimizing/comparing the dps of a scepter/pistol build, not GS/staff.

Clones will prioritize replacing other clones before replacing phantasms. If there is no other clone out, they will replace a phantasm.

Darkwolf.6291:

He’s comparing Scepter/Pistol where you autoattack and where you don’t. If you don’t autoattack then you can have 3 iDuelist. In which case the obvious statement is…

Are you surprised that the build where you attack does more damage?

What I would be thinking is you should compare Sword/Pistol to Scepter/Pistol – where you keep 3 iDuelist out with the Sword/Pistol, and only two with the Scepter/Pistol.

Think you’ll find then that the Sword/Pistol dominates.

This guy got it. The scepter auto produces a clone no matter what. That means you
can’t have 3 iduelists and auto attack too. The 2 situations are auto attack + clone + 2 iduelists vs 3 iduelists. Taking out common factors leaves auto attack + clone vs 1 iduelist. Plugging in the numbers (and Pyroatheist’s comment about clone attack speed) I got auto attack + clone > 1 iduelist by 137 dps.

I took numbers (rounded off obviously) from a field test (cuz I never trusted tooltip numbers) and compared.

On another note, If you add restorative mantras (I mentioned using it in OP) to the mix, that dps loss of 137 with 3 iduelists nets me 520 hps spamming mantra of pain.

Pyroatheist.9031:

There’s a few glaring mistakes in your calculations. First, you have the scepter clone attacking at a rate of 2 attacks per second. This should be slower by at least a factor of 3.

Additionally, you appear to be going off of the tooltip as to the damage of the iDuelist. Unless I am greatly mistaken, the damage per shot is significantly higher than 200. 200 may be the value with steady weapons, but when you get real weapons, the iDuelist damage skyrockets, while the scepter clone damage doesn’t change at all.

I’m basing everything on wiki and my actual damage. Wiki says the clone uses the actual ether bolt, which has a 0.5 attack speed. I would like to know a clones actual attack speed.

I just timed it to 1 attack every 2 sec (i get 3 attacks in before the clone attacks). It still favors scepter by 137 dps.

Here’s what really surprised me. The scepter clone with sharper images is roughly the same dps as the iduelist with sharper images in a longer fight.

On the other hand, scepter clones spawn at your target giving them a higher chance of getting erased.

EDIT Changes some numbers to reflect Pyroatheist’s input.

For a long time, I’ve run a sword/pistol restorative mantras build. I just set up 3 iduelists and spam mantra of pain. For a long time, I’ve wanted to try the scepter, but never did because the auto attack produced a clone. That meant I would lose 1 iduelist. The question came up “Is scepter clone worth an iduelist”.

170% crit damage
200 × 8 iduelist damage over 6.5s 80% crit
sharper images
~ 1stack bleed over 5sec over a long period of time = 5stacks of bleed over 1sec
102 bleed damage per stack

iduelist
~ ((200 × 0.2) + (200 × 1.7) x 0.8) x 8 / 6.5
~ 384 dps
with sharper images
~ (102 × 5)bleed damage x 0.8chance x (8 attacks / 6.5 sec)
~ 502 dps
Total ~ 886 dps

300 300 450 scepter damage over 2 sec

scepter
~ ((1050 × 0.2) + (1050 × 1.7 × 0.8)) / 2 (EDIT 0.8 → 0.6)
~ 819dps (EDIT 745)
with clone and sharper images
~ (102 × 5) bleed damage x 0.8 (EDIT 0.8 -> 0.6) chance x (1 attack / 0.5 sec) (EDIT 0.5 -> 2)
~ 816 dps (EDIT 204) (EDIT 153)
Total ~ 1635 dps (EDIT 1023) (EDIT 898)

Is this right? I actually lose 749 (EDIT 137) (EDIT 86) dps trying to keep up 3 iduelsits instead of 2 iduelist + 1 scepter clone?

Is the math wrong?

All those crit/procs did was add 196 dps (19% of untraited dps) to FT, 91 dps (7% of untraited dps) to rifle, and 283 dps (9.8% of untraited damage) to bomb. Sure FT had the biggest improvement because of those procs, but the end result still shows that even with the proc at a reasonable crit rate of 50%, you are still doing 1/2 the damage you should be doing.

So; in line with the topic, choosing to use FT in a supportive role (in any role: healing, damage, utility, moral support?) is less effective by a huge difference.

Countless tests say otherwise. 1 pulse can hit only 3 at most. 1 breath is 10 pulses. Against 5 targets each pulse will pick 3 random targets. So given the numbers above, while it is possible to hit 5 targets with 1 breath, you will be doing less damage per target

3633 / 30 ~ 121
30 hits / 5 targets = 6
6 × 121 = 726

you basically reduce your dps from 1211 against 3 to 726 against 5

The rifle pierces (for up to 5? with good aim), bomb hits 5, while FT hit 3 (yes 3 not 5, 3).

FT 1211 × 3 = 3633 total potential damage
Rifle 1391 × 3 = 4173 or 1391 × 5 = 6955 total potential damage
Bomb 2883 × 5 = 14415 total potential damage

3633 dps is from hitting 3 targets 10x each for a max of 30 hits. Hitting 5 targets means you are distributing 30 hits at most to 5 targets (instead of doing 10 10 10 0 0, you are doing 5 5 5 5 10 or 5 6 6 5 8 or 6 7 7 6 4 you get the picture). That means you are doing less than 1211 dps per target (guarantied).

This is why people say what they say about FT (and tool kit, but that’s a whole nother can of worms). Bomb kit adheres to the philosophy anet gave us that melee = 2x range due to risk. Bomb adheres to the standard. It was only recently that I understood why bomb did the same damage as other melee weapons from other classes since bomb has additional risk (time delay between action and damage). Bomb hits 2 targets more than regular melee weapons to compensate for that time delay risk factor.

I had some time before the reset, so I did some simple math to compare the FT to it’s other options (rifle for ranged and bomb for melee) using only the 1 skill. Take it with a grain of salt.

Uses http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQBgEYUBAA9AAAAQkCAA4TBAA
10/30/0/20/10 in favor of FT
2959 attack
50% crit 160% crit damage
bleed damage = 51
burn damage = 464

Assuming a really long time frame
(x stacks of bleed for y sec) = (y stacks of bleed for x sec)
(x stacks of vulnerability for y sec) = (y stacks of vulnerability for x sec)

Sharp Shooter ~ 1 stack 3sec bleed at 30% chance on crit (0sec icd, meaning “per attack”)
~ 51 × 3 × 0.3 x 0.5
~ 23 dps per attack
Incendiary Powder ~ 2sec burn at 33% chance on crit (3sec icd)
~ (464 × 2/3) x 0.33 × 0.5
~ 51 dps
Precise Sights ~ +1% direct damage for 3sec at 50% on crit (0sec icd , means “per attack”)
~ 3% x 0.5 × 0.5
~ 0.75% more direct damage per attack
Shrapnel ~ 1 stack 13sec bleed at 15% chance (0sec icd, means per attack)
~ 51 × 13 × .15
~ 99 dps per attack

FT ~1400 normal damage at 50% crit + 464 burn damage over 2.25sec
~ ((1400 × 0.5) + (1400 × 1.6 × 0.5) + 464)/2.25
~ (700 + 1120 + 464)/2.25
~ 1015
With sharp shooter +23 dps per attack 5 attacks per sec
~ +115
With incendiary powder +51 dps
With precise sights + 0.75% x 5 attacks x (1820)/2.25
~ +30dps
Total FT dps ~ 1211 dps

Rifle ~ 750 normal damage at 50% crit over 0.75sec
~ ((750 × 0.5) + (750 × 1.6 × 0.5))/0.75
~ (375 + 600)/0.75
~ 1300
With sharp shooter +23 dps per attack 1.33 attack per sec
~ +30
With incendiary powder + 51 dps
With precise sights + 0.75% x 1 attack x 1300
~ +10
Total rifle dps ~ 1391 dps

Bomb ~ 1000 normal damage at 50% crit over 0.5sec
~ ((1000 × 0.5) + (1000 × 1.6 × 0.5))/0.5
~ (500 + 800)/0.5
~ 2600 dps
With sharp shooter +23 dps per attack 2 attacks per sec
~ +46
With incendiary powder + 51 dps
With precise sights +0.75% x 2 attacks x 2600
~ +39
With shrapnel +99 dps per attack 2 attacks per sec
~ +198
Total bomb dps ~ 2736 dps(incendiary powder) 2883 dps (shrapnel)

FT: 1211 dps
Rifle: 1391 dps
Bomb: 2736 or 2883 dps

Please note that both the rifle and bomb are lacking their +10% damage traits.

This is why everyone says things like FT is kitten dps. It is melee dps that does less than ranged dps (with the philosophy that melee damage = 2x ranged damage for the risk involved with being at melee).