Guild Wars 2

Wastrelz.8235:

I personally think they might be able to give us a 1200 range trait on P/P if they scaled the damage on unload, similar to what they do with certain skills for the ranger or mesmer, but in reverse. Instead of doing more damage from a distance, a thief with pistols should do less damage from 1200, but increasingly more the closer he got to the target. That would be keeping in line with the class motif, and add a little bit of tactical challenge to playing P/P effectively.

Very much in favor of this. If they intend to keep Body Shot the way it is, at least let pistol skills be traitable 1200 range.

As for the rifle, I imagine it to be 3 melee/utility skills (1, 2, 3) and 2 utility/stealthing skills (4, 5). 1, 2, and 3 however become 1200 ranged skills when in stealth. This would make it so you have to be stealthed to “snipe”.

Here are some thoughts you may or may not want to use. These are not recommendations over what you already use (just something to keep you up at night)

Signets of Power with Signet of Malice – You are already using Signet Use so Signet of Malice will have a 12 sec cd. Add the 25pts in acrobatics and that 5 might will last for 12.5 sec. That’s a 7.75% increase in damage with a near 100% uptime (94.3% uptime counting cast time). And if you can afford to use Signet of Malice on CD you get 2 initiative every 13.25 sec.

Trade offs
- you lose about 7.00% EHP (Practiced Tolerance) for 7.75% EP (Signets of Power)
- you lose Withdraw (instant cast) for Signet of Malice (significant cast time)

It’s only a huge chunk if you “make it a huge chunk”. 6 initiative is HUGE when you only have 6 initiative (way more with less initiative or none at all). It’s not as much when you have 15 with 3 ini from trait and signet just around the corner.

You obviously don’t take this for builds that rely on the passive. Realistically, it’s 5 might for 10 sec for people who actively use signets. It’s not for “might stacking”.

Take signet of malice for example
passive 133 heal (baseline) per damage dealt
active 3275 heal (baseline)
cd 15 sec (baseline)

I could modify this with 3 traits so that:
passive 133 heal per damage dealt
active 3275 heal, recover 2 initiative, gain 5 might (11 sec), vigor (8.8 sec)
cd 12 sec

I would use the 1st version on a p/p build while the 2nd version I would use on maybe a variant of that s/d non invi build I saw come up a couple of weeks ago.

This is just me spit balling here so … take your grain of salt 1st.
Take 4 signets (malice, assassin’s, infiltrator’s, of agility) and cast malice when ever it goes off CD for the boons. Precast assassin’s before engaging/re-engaging. Cast infiltrator’s to shadow step. You’ll have 15 might for a good couple of sec. IF you open with this you waste the 6 ini. If you do this mid combat and are missing 6 or more ini then good.

If you get in trouble dodge/weapon skill out + signet of agility (so its only for builds with mobility/utility already available from the weapon set and not the utility slots).

In that example, the P/P weapon set is bad, not initiative. More specifically, initiative costs of the P/P weapon set is bad, not initiative.

In your example on CnD, CnD provides a 3 sec invi at the cost of 6 initiative. Let’s transfer that to a “non-thief” not using initiative.
- 1 ini recharges at 1.33 sec
- 3 sec invi every 7.98 sec (8 sec) OR a 6 sec invi every 15.96 sec (16 sec)
- 3 sec invi recover 2 ini (2.66 sec) OR 6 sec invi recovers 4 ini (5.32 sec)

And take note, invi is not the only thing CnD provides.

You ask “CnD is useful, but 6 initiative?”, I (as someone who also plays non thieves) would ask “CnD is useful, but why only an 8 sec cd?”

I’ve played everything except guardian to 80 (dungeons going up to lv faster). The only thing I find that thieves can do (outside of stealth) that others can’t (to the extent that thieves can at least) is finish the kitten out of combo fields.

Thieves have access to finishers “without” cd’s (I say without cuz I’m not taking into account ini recovery yet) allowing us to chain finish a field over and over.

I’m no expert, but I’m with Wolfe on this. The problem is that you view the thief the same as the other classes when they are not the same at all.

Key differences with weapon skills
Thief – manages initiative as a resource (similar to “mana” from other games)
Others – manage cooldowns as a resource

All none thief weapon skills (not auto attacks either) have cooldowns. Other classes have to cycle their damage skills for maximum uptime on highest damage skills and minimum uptime on lowest damage skills.

Thieves spam 1 damage skill and weave in utilities based on the situation.

There is the argument that thieves lose damage when using a utility weapon skill. That is true. 5 HK’s is more damage than 4HK’s + shadow shot. The same is true for other classes. Suppose 1123 is the highest damage cycle of x class and 4 would be a utility skill. 1123 would deal more damage than 1124.

So, it’s not that initiative is bad. Initiative is different.

Acrobatics has to modify dodge as much as shadow arts modifies stealth.
My suggestions would be:
1 Quick Dodge – reduce the cost of dodging by 10 endurance (reduce the dodge distance by 50%)
1 would grant you the dodge without too much displacement. It would also give you more dodge instances. It would be “like” a dodge in place kind of thing.

2.1 Somersault – spend all your remaining endurance to boost your dodge distance (5 sec icd)
2.2 Somersault – spend up to 6 initiative to boost your dodge distance (5 sec icd)
These would be the dodge equivalent of stealth as a “wait!! no more.” move

3 <insert creative name> – call a thief to dodge in the opposite direction you dodge (10sec icd)
The thief would only last for the duration of the dodge roll.

I would like something that screams “don’t blind the warrior!!”

Maybe something like “blind retaliation”
- leap at the source of blind and deal (minuscule) damage
or
- throw a dart at the source of blind and deal (minuscule) damage
This would be something to remove the blind immediately (place an icd if imba)

Maybe something to reward us for being in melee. Call it “face to face”
- ignore blind effects when within 150 range of your target

I’m only just happy I can pet swap quick stomp again (if it goes live).

Instinctual Bond: This trait has been swapped with Zephyr’s Speed. Quickness increased to 3s

So if this goes live, does that mean I can quick stomp again via pet swap (sure its gonna be 25 pts more expensive than before, but I don’t care)

I’ve been playing a peek-a-boo killshot warrior for a couple of months so bear with me.

I’m inching my way to 80 on a thief (crafted him to 35 and currently 45 via wvw karma train). Would healing power matter at all if I use signet of malice instead of withdraw (plan to use assassin’s reward and sigil of blood)?

My 1st choice for armor was to go full knights, but the 14k hp isn’t sitting well with me (used to 19k hp on my full glass warrior). My only options for vit and prec is magi.

A little off topic, but…

Is there a way to make my thief laugh every time I use a certain skill? I just want to hear the laughing (no need to see an animation).

I should probably clarify. I want to be able to play as a “frontliner”. Someone who can stay in combat for quite some time (as opposed to my sniper warrior who is only in combat every time killshot comes off cd).

I was hoping the self healing from assassin’s reward and signet of malice would be enough (with the evades and effects on dodge).

This might be exactly what I’m looking for. My warrior is mostly played “as a thief without stealth” (1. get in 2. do my thing 3. get out before someone looks in my direction). So I was thinking maybe I can play a thief like a warrior.

Do you think this could be done on a p/p build? Like a cqc pistol build where “people know where I am”.

How exactly do you “spend a fortune” on a zerker armor set?
- It’s available from cof.
- If you wvw you can spend your badges on a full set too.
- If you have access to fotm 20 you can get 2 rings in 10 days (at most).
- If you aren’t OC about your back piece you can get 1 from the guild vendor (the stat difference from rare to exotic is minuscule on back pieces)

@auto attacking
Well, you do get might from crit with a GS if traited.

Rangers are among anet’s explorer class. So a staff to an explorer would be a walking stick.

Since we’re dreaming anyway, let me dream too.

staff 1: Lunge – Lunge past your target hitting 2 extra targets nearby. Range 150, land 300 range from where you started (150 behind your target). – This keeps you constantly moving making you hard to hit (mobility as your defensive flavor)

staff 2: Flight of the raven – Thrust your staff into the ground to launch (not the cc) yourself up and evade. – This would be just a different kind of evade (no damage).

staff 3: Leopard’s Pounce – Leap 600 units forward. Leap another 600 units if you hit something. – This would be just a different kind of leap.

staff 4: Strength of the bear – Smash the ground in front of you to unearth a huge destructible rock. – This lets you create los-able/obstruct-able neutral objects

staff 5: Stampede – Call a stampede of boars knocking down enemies hit in a line in front of you. – Linear CC.

After using it for over 2 months, I would say main hand ax is a melee condition damage weapon.
- Ax flight speed makes it so that you won’t be hitting most of the time if the target is moving (and has a brain).
- Splitblade (ax 2) is best used pointblank.
- Anything power related (power/precision/crit damage) is only affecting “half” your damage (you direct damage is scaled down to compensate for pet direct damage and gear stats don’t transfer to pets).
- Anything condition related (condition damage/duration) will affect all your conditions fully.

That said, pair it with a torch.

It would’ve been ok if it totaled +15. +1 costs 20pts, 300/20 = 15.

Sebrent.3625:

Seetoo.9316:

Sweet. Confirmation to ignore every rank skill aside from ballista and cannon skills.

And carrying extra supplies. That is quite nice. Increases the number of supplies you can carry by 33% to 50% (15 / 10 = 1.5 … 20 / 15 = .333).

Not for 300 rank points.

Sweet. Confirmation to ignore every rank skill aside from ballista and cannon skills.

misterdevious.6482:

As long as there aren’t a bunch of players around, you can buff siege damage with Frost spirit. 10% bigger siege hits 50% of the time without any cooldown is a significant boost… compared to the +5% you can earn with WxP.

I started a thread in the WvW section yesterday, but it didn’t get much attention:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Is-this-Ranger-siege-advantage-intended

You mean 15% from wxp.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIIQNBkYDbkzJ5t5R3hJOgcUQFBo6hdUHxRShYwGA;TkAg0CnoUyokQJrSOlkKN4A

s/wh is mostly for movement. The utilities are for prep-ing KS (SoR on cd, fgj and SoM used during KS casting).

I basically want to KS as often as I can.

I think I know why storm and stone don’t work for siege. You will notice that the siege weapons themselves will receive the spirit buffs. I got to thinking that maybe these siege weapons themselves are different “npcs” that benefit from the spirit like any other npc.

Test performed
Place sun spirit far enough to affect me (I get its buff) but too far to affect the treb (treb doesn’t get the buff).

I shot the golem cluster for some time and not one of them got burned.

I re-positioned to give the treb the buff. I fired again and finally burned 1 golem in the cluster.

So the reason why storm and stone don’t work (or sharpening stone, attack of opportunity, etc) is because they are buffs given to who ever is the source of damage. Since the siege weapon itself is the source of damage, swiftness and protection would be given to the siege weapon (not you since you are not the source of damage). But since siege weapons can’t receive buffs, they get nothing.

From the same line of reasoning, siege weapons don’t trigger sharpening stone, attack of opportunity, etc is because damage while on a siege weapon does not come from you.

waka.9826:

McDili.1549:

Seetoo.9316:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.

FYI traited nades hit 6x per sec while FT hits for 5x per sec.

How so? I know that if you trait it you get 3 nades per toss but aside from Barrage but even so it takes half a second to cast a toss and then there’s the time it takes to land. Even if you throw them inside yourself it takes about 1/4th of a second to land. Anything at a reasonable range takes longer.

There’s more reliability in the FT too as far as hitting your target, outside of PvE that is.

I think he means you can throw 2 grenades tosses in the time that flamethrower 1 ends.

4 tosses.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.

FYI traited nades hit 6x per sec while FT hits for 5x per sec.

Has anyone successfully used airblast against cata and treb fire?

The only practical use I’ve found for spirits in wvw is with sieging. Imagine my surprise when my frost spirit would actually add 10% damage to my treb shot. Later I tried it with all the siege weapons and they work.

Frost spirit is good for attacking at range. If your commander starts dropping catas (not good for rams), you would want to drop a frost spirit.

Sun spirit if better used for defending. Add sun and frost to an arrow cart (arrow carts are better used by warriors with tactics I though)/cata/treb and aoe the gate and you will burn someone (ICD on sun spirit burn has to go). The ICD however makes using it on a ballista (single target anyway) better.

Storm and stone spirits are pretty useless in this “playstyle”.

Carrion/rabid gear with full condition duration (100%) actually fits on siege since they have their own attack. I’ve trebbed on a lot of classes and builds and they all do 9715 on basic walls. The upside is when you get on siege with conditions.

I just “reproduced” the situation where my giver weapon stopped giving me my 10% condition duration. I’m not sure if it’s isolated to wvw, but when you die the weapons stop giving the 10% condition damage. It took a while of re-equiping the gear to get it back.

Giver weapons still borked.

Spirits, now that’s an idea. Adding 10% siege damage from frost spirit would be nice.

I’m 3000 units away from the fight (much farther if my ballista is high enough). That makes empathic bond or bark skin kinda useless.

My unsure points would be
- 10 in skirmishing for the bleed on crit (siege can’t crit right?)
- sword for main hand because sword 3 just refuses to hit for me (but I really want sword 2 for the mobility)

I’ve decided to go with my ranger for a ballista build in WvW (supply capacity and ballista mastery for rank skills).
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/ranger/?6.1|c.1m.h5.g.1h.h2|1.1m.h5|1h.7i.1h.7i.1h.7g.1h.7g.1h.9c.1h.9c|1c.62.2w.0.3w.0.1c.62.1c.62.1c.62|u17b.a2.u1a7.0.0|30.e|4j.4q.4r.4w.54|e

What can I improve?

Can we get the guy who designed CM dungeon. The bandits there are mostly engg’s and they are freaky strong (talking about your and your imba KD shotgun Sureshot).

I would like the necro to be rebuilt to “burst conditions” with skills (utility and weapons). Attrition just doesn’t work with so many condition removals. Instead of a stack of bleed for 4 sec, we should apply 4stacks of bleed for 1 sec.

I would also like pets to be mobile meat shield (no more offensive pets with borked AI). Give them effects when they die (cuz they WILL) to differentiate. They just follow you around absorbing AoE’s and providing los obstructions.

Why have more than 1 button do the exact same thing? We already have ` to stow kits. These individual stow kit skills could be replaced with anything else. For example, you could have utility skills (that are only accessible when you have the kit out).

Isn’t that a good trade off? You get your QoL auto attack but lose the ability to lead your targets.

@mdaikon
I just tried it out. Letting FT2 explode on its own has always gotten me a 2nd explosion. I’m just throwing out a guess here, I think it’s because if you let it explode, the game still thinks you detonated.

The damage becomes real impressive. If this stays like this FT2 returns to it’s original range of half melee half range limbo.

I’m kinda iffy about IP since it has a 3sec icd. The icd means you can only hit 1 target with it. It’s pretty good single target though (+ you get 10% more condition duration by default just by taking the trait).

I guess this is as far as I go here (unless someone corrects the math or suggests a nice new test to try out).

CriSPeH.8512:

Seetoo.9316:

Er, no. By my logic everyone defending FT should stop so anet doesn’t get the justification to leave the crappy stuff at their crappy levels.

I’ve already shown how nades do more hits per sec and more damage per hits. How exacly does FT out tag nades with its lower damage lower hits per sec and lower cleave?

Because it hits faster and more ppl more frequently.
Thats untraited meaning you can run any build you want and than whip out your FT when you are gonna run through a zerg. Nades need to be GM traited to be as effective as you keep claiming.

Now it’s FT1 untraited? Now you’re saying FT1 doesn’t need the 50 trait point investment? So what if nades needs the 30 pts for 50% more damage with an extra grenade and +10% explosion damage. FT on the other hand needs a 50 pt investment + might duration runes do be even comparable. But now you wanna FT1 thru a zerg untraited?

CriSPeH.8512:

You haven’t shown anything besides you like to do more math than you do playing the game. You haven’t shown that in all situations Grenades can out DPS FT, I see no video of you taking down different grps of mobs with both kits and showing the times.
You are theorycrafting with damage numbers in a game that has multiple factors that can alter those numbers.

And by your logic no one should believe you because you’ve done … nothing to support your claims.

CriSPeH.8512:

You could make the same arguement that the Rifle is better damage than P/S so then again by your logic P/S is useless.

So now it’s a power rifle vs a condition pistol… right.

CriSPeH.8512:

You are just another person who doesn’t like the way something is so you complain about it on the forums in hopes that a Dev will read it and change it to your liking. Then you lash out and argue with anyone who disagrees or simply has a different opinion because you are afraid that a Dev will see their post and decide not to change things.

And you are just another person making unsupported claims.

CriSPeH.8512:

But hey I am all for Anet making the FT do more damage I don’t think anyone would complain about that.

I would just warn ppl to not listen to the overexaggerated complaints that alot of ppl have towards the FT and say try it out for yourself, it is Fun.

Yes, the numbers are soooooooooooooo exaggerated, specially with the disclaimer saying they are actually lower than the test numbers.

Er, no. By my logic everyone defending FT should stop so anet doesn’t get the justification to leave the crappy stuff at their crappy levels.

I’ve already shown how nades do more hits per sec and more damage per hits. How exacly does FT out tag nades with its lower damage lower hits per sec and lower cleave?

But I’m not writing it off as “useless” because it is “not fun”. I’m writing it off as “useless” because it is “mathematically inferior” to everything else we have. That’s pretty much why I’ve been using math.

I’ll quote JohnDied for something he said that shared my sentiments.

The reason why engineers bash the flamethrower is because we can’t depend on it to do anything better than another weapon, we consider it a waste of development time.

The reason why engineers defend the flamethrower is because it “looks cool” (my edit “feels fun”)…

Great

CriSPeH.8512:

The OP Topic is Flamethrower isn’t worth a slot.
Meaning the arguement is that FT is SO bad that its never worth taking over Nades or Bombs or I guess anything else. There is alot of ppl who disagree with that. Can you honostly say that the FT is SO bad that its never worth taking?
Alot of ppl say the Engineer is so bad its not worth playing.
But there are alot of us Engineers who would beg to differ.

I will agree with Kamahl that an untraited FT (for ele style play of kit dancing with FT2) is worth taking. Using the FT for anything else is not. That is my stand on the matter.

People say the engg isn’t worth it from an objective mathematical point of view. People say it is worth it from a subjective fun factor point of view (it really is fun).

CriSPeH.8512:

Yes ppl seem to have a hard time grasping that the FT only hits 3 targets compared to 5 like Nades and Bombs. But it is also misleading to say that FT only hits 3 targets because it can hit 3 per pulse for 10 pulses. So if you have a grp of 5 mobs and you strafe them you will damage all 5 multilble times during a single Flame Jet. I am guessing that is the reason its only 3 per, if it were 5 you could tag a large amount of ppl very easily.

It is also misleading to omit saying that hitting more than 3 will lower your “per target” dps. On average you will hit 3 targets for 10 hits each, 5 targets for 6 hits each, 6 targets for 5 hits each, 10 targets for 3 hits each. You will never hit on average 5 targets for 10 hits each.

CriSPeH.8512:

Lets not forget that Nades need to be button mashed to keep up sustained damage.
That is one of the main reasons I run with FT for mob grinding, I get sick of having to strafe+aim+button mash and imo bombkit requires you to be a little too close for aa.

That is a QoL issue that has its work around. Nader can spend 10pts for kit refinement for a 20sec cd burst cycle (2, 4, tool belt, KR) instead of mindlessly spamming 1. Bombers can still strafe quite easily with mobs behind them, or simply lay down a pulsing blind (still helps even after the nerf). With the FT you’ll be fighting longer (about at most 2x as long as you have too).

Spreading misinformation is exactly what it is “spreading misinformation”. The kid gloves come off when these people don’t even test the stuff that they peach.

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack….snip

How many times does this have to get corrected?

Also, how is it so much different from how FT does its damage? FT1 does 10 attacks in 1 breath over 2.25 sec. In that same amount of time nades would have thrown 12 nades out. It also doesn’t do that much damage per wave in 1 hit, it’s 3 separate hits.

In my pvt gear I get around 150 per pulse on FT 1 (juggernaut + deadly mixture) and around 250 per grenade on nade1 (grenadier without explosive powder). I a cluster of 30 where i hit 1 with 1hp FT loses 149 damage while nades lose 249 (pretty “big” difference of 100). Later you realize that nades hit (250 × 12 × 3) – 249 (assuming 3 target cap) for 8751 and FT hit for (150 × 10 × 3) – 149 for 4351. That’s a 2.77% loss for nades while FT lost 3.31%.

Not to mention the already huge difference in damage.

CriSPeH.8512:

If a mob dies in the middle of a Flame Jet the rest of the attack carries over to the next mob

Why would you assume this doesn’t happen for nades? I throw 3 nades out. If a mob dies from the 1st explosion, the damage from the 2nd and 3rd explosions carry over to other mobs.

How about this situation then. You hit 1 target with 1HP. FT1 loses 9 hits worth of damage while nades only lose 2 hits worth of damage.

SmoothHussler.6387:

Vyxion.6358:

nakoda.4213:

the other consideration in the calculations is the AoE dmg; bomb and ft are both AoE weapons, technically.

But since I am not a numbers guy, I put it to you, Seetoo, should the potential DPS of the FT#1+FT#2 be factored by their maximum number of targets (Bomb kit as well)?

I am not sold that more targets reduces sustained DPS though (i do agree it does less per target with more than 5 targets, but the overall sustained dps ought not be changing just because there are more targets). Since tests are meant to be controlled, isn’t FT1 3x whatever it does to a single dummy, and FT2 5x, since they can hit that many targets before losing any single target dps? Likewise, Bombkit/nadekit should have its DPS factored by up to 5 since a single bomb/volley can hit 5 targets for the same amount?

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack.
Something else i really like about FT as well is the fact the FT1 keeps on doing dmg, theres a smaller ammount of “overdamage” so to speak. There’s more effective dmg than when you compare it to the grenades.

Let me explain this:

Lets say you are grinding an event with a mass ammount of mobs (lets say 30 are alive at once) and you throw in grenades. You throw them in waves, not continuesly. When the grenades land they do a set ammount of dmg all at once on a set ammount of targets. If some targets died in the progress all overdmg done to them was lost and you’re not dealing extra dmg to remaining targets till the next wave of nades.

Flamethrower is different. It’s more like a pulsing aoe. The dmg comes in 10 waves per attack (rather than the grenade’s 1 attack 1 wave). lets say some targets die in the middle of the flame jet then the remaining waves of the flamejet simply start hurting other targets, losing less effective dmg on said dead target and doing more effective dmg because it dynamically switches to live targets even during that 1 attack.

Nades don’t do that.
It’s a terrible thing trying to throw maths on but it’s a very important thing to note when comparing the 2.

That was a very informative post. Thanks for this.

And misinformation man’s sidekick takes his 1st victim.

Nades calc hit or miss when they explode, not when they are thrown. Let’s assume nades can only hit 3. In a cluster of 30, you only hit 3 per explosion (3/30). When 1 dies while a grenade is already in flight, there are only 29 targets before said grenade explodes. When said grenade does explode it takes 3 targets out of 29 left alive in the blast radius. No loss of dps due to a target dying.

Where do these people even get these?

So 0 – 150 is what makes melee. That must mean 151 is ranged. I guess that makes d/d elems ranged. Ranged is at least 900. You only have 2 choices: melee or ranged. This is black and white. There is no grey.

So ask the questions.
Can 425 reach 900? No. It can’t be ranged.
Can 425 reach 150? Yes. I can be melee.

Since it can not be ranged (and the only other option is melee), then it can only be classified as melee. Melee with a longer reach is still melee. A 2 inch blade has a longer reach than a 1 inch blade and yet both are still melee. A 10 ft pole has a much longer reach than say a 3 ft bat, but it’s still melee because you can’t reach 100 ft with it.

I never said it was. If the pro FT’s ignore the math (they often do) because they “feel” it is not bad, nothing I say will change that. The math is far from perfect, but it’s not far off.

I stand with they op on this (not worth it).

I chose to exclude rifle 3 4 5 because they are melee skills. I chose to include static discharge because they have at least 900 range on some of the toolbelt skills.

Bah!! Imma go stick to my non damage oriented fisherman. If they bring it up higher to maybe 75% melee damage then I’ll revisit the juggernaut FT.

Sigh. And here I thought you actually knew how the FT works. Each pulse on FT1 can only hit 3. No matter how many targets are in front of you, you will only hit 3 per pulse.

If you can’t understand this, then never mind.