Guild Wars 2

I feel we have some decent ideas on protect me. But what about guard. Usually this is considered the most in need of rework. Or atleast tied with search and rescue.

Protos suggestion isn’t bad. But what if it gave resistance to the pet instead of protection? Namely. What if guard became a method of sustaining the pet through condition pressure. It promotes synergy with the wilderness survival grandmaster empathic bond. As well as the signet of renewal. And those conditions can be steadily cleansed off through trooper runes. It also gives heal as one limited anti immoblock capability. Which shouts in general DON’T HAVE AT ALL >.>. If you could copy a couple seconds of resistance over. That can be the difference of being locked down or “swooping” to safety.

Edit: This would also be a MASSIVE step towards making hte pet useable in wvw for zerg fights. As what usually happens is the pet is crippled/immobd in a field of aoes and it can’t get out.. resistance would enable the pet to actually leave the death zone.

infantrydiv.1620:

Shadelang.3012:

infantrydiv.1620:

Both WHaO and RaO are in a good place (with or without the WHaO buff, it’s still an excellent heal that’s good vs burst damage).

Guard needs a different functionality. Protect Me in this meta of things like burn guards and burst comps is just a big red sign saying “Kill my pet and kill me 5 seconds after”. If arenanet wants to focus on Shouts now, please first look at Guard and Protect Me.

Shouts should be pet/ranger oriented, so RaO is a perfect example of that. It powers up both the pet and Ranger.

“Guard” in my opinion should just be entirely reworked: It’s totally outdated and the functionality is minimal. Just give us a new skill.

Protect Me: There are lots of options for this skill now. What I would opt for is both Ranger and pet gain Protection and Resistance. Pet could also have a short taunt added to it.

My biggest wish for protect me would be that it no longer prevented the pet from contributing. Also that orders could be given to the pet without canceling it.

In a dream world for me personally. Protect me would look as follows.

Protect Me: Causes the pet to aggressively defend you. Taking 50% of the damage that you would otherwise have taken.

Stun Breaks you and the pet.

You gain protection.

The pet gains resistance. (to facilitate the pet actually defending you. Doesn’t mean anything if its bogged down by condis)

Your suggestion would be fine by me as well. I just don’t like the way the current skill works (preventing capture node contribution AND your pet usually gets destroyed).

all of that ONTOP of you actually being even weaker DURING the duration because hte pet isn’t even bloody helping you anymore.

ProtoMarcus.7649:

infantrydiv.1620:

Both WHaO and RaO are in a good place (with or without the WHaO buff, it’s still an excellent heal that’s good vs burst damage).

Guard needs a different functionality. Protect Me in this meta of things like burn guards and burst comps is just a big red sign saying “Kill my pet and kill me 5 seconds after”. If arenanet wants to focus on Shouts now, please first look at Guard and Protect Me.

Shouts should be pet/ranger oriented, so RaO is a perfect example of that. It powers up both the pet and Ranger.

“Guard” in my opinion should just be entirely reworked: It’s totally outdated and the functionality is minimal. Just give us a new skill.

Protect Me: There are lots of options for this skill now. What I would opt for is both Ranger and pet gain Protection and Resistance. Pet could also have a short taunt added to it.

The ‘kill my pet first then kill me’ idea made me think, Retaliation could be interesting somewhere in there. If the pet is taking the damage but also has retaliation, its a nice counter-play to the foe

Retaliation isn’t a bad idea. As long as the mechanics of the skill allow retaliation on the pet to trigger on the person hitting the ranger. But it would still be a lackluster skill from the defensive standpoint without some boon support or altered functionality.

infantrydiv.1620:

Both WHaO and RaO are in a good place (with or without the WHaO buff, it’s still an excellent heal that’s good vs burst damage).

Guard needs a different functionality. Protect Me in this meta of things like burn guards and burst comps is just a big red sign saying “Kill my pet and kill me 5 seconds after”. If arenanet wants to focus on Shouts now, please first look at Guard and Protect Me.

Shouts should be pet/ranger oriented, so RaO is a perfect example of that. It powers up both the pet and Ranger.

“Guard” in my opinion should just be entirely reworked: It’s totally outdated and the functionality is minimal. Just give us a new skill.

Protect Me: There are lots of options for this skill now. What I would opt for is both Ranger and pet gain Protection and Resistance. Pet could also have a short taunt added to it.

My biggest wish for protect me would be that it no longer prevented the pet from contributing. Also that orders could be given to the pet without canceling it.

In a dream world for me personally. Protect me would look as follows.

Protect Me: Causes the pet to aggressively defend you. Taking 50% of the damage that you would otherwise have taken.

Stun Breaks you and the pet.

You gain protection.

The pet gains resistance. (to facilitate the pet actually defending you. Doesn’t mean anything if its bogged down by condis)

@ProtoMarcus I read through what you posted and they seem like much more realistic methods of fixing several of the key issues that shout rangers currently have. And many id like to see implemented barring a full rework (I can’t expect them to put that much effort into shouts when HoT is about to come out. It would be unfair) But these chages would largely make shouts atleast comporable for there own sake and more than just as a swiftness source.

Thank you very much ProtoMarcus. Im grateful to you for bringing this in.

ProtoMarcus could you copy your post into this thread? I understand if you dont want to but I feel it would more easily aid conversation.

AgitatedFox.5287:

I have a deep rooted belief ranger can be fixed and if it starts with shouts, so be it. I dont know if you saw shade by I passed this thread along to Roy and he told me he’d take a look.

Yes I saw I thanked you for that and I want to thank you again. Thats part of why I freaked out when it was merged. As I feel that would leave it burried under conversations of different subjects entirely. Luckily Gaile explained and ive remade this post here.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thank you for remaking, Shadelang. (And again, I’m sorry for the mis-merging!)

I understand gaile. Im sure it could be confusing and I could have titled it better. I apologize if the tone of my text comes off as rude. However this night has been a bit frustrating for the ranger community >.<

Gaile Gray.6029:

xarallei.4279:

I really wish they’d talk to us. On here and not on twitter. Communication is something desperately needed.

Yes, talking here is much more valuable, and I believe this is where the meaningful discussion will take place.

Hey gail my original post is on page 7 near the bottom. however I have already remade my post at the suggestion of other members of this forum. If the post could be restored inside that one it would be incredible but ill understand if thats not possible.

Thank you all three of you for reposting/commenting. I know its probably annoying to try and restart this thread but I deeply appreciate it. I doubt these will ever be fixed if there not seen. And they wont get the attention they deserve in a kitten ed merged thread.

I know I butchered these posts and I missed some replies/posts. I didnt feel it was right to copy other peoples initial posts but I strongly encourage remaking/copying yours in or making new ones if you are still interested.

Ehecatl.9172:

Sic ‘Em REALLY needs to not cancel when we use F2. That is a huge problem with the skill. If we could activate it and then use F2 for a 40% damage boost to our pet’s primary burst that’d be amazing.

Guard needs a complete overhaul. It doesn’t do what it was meant to do. Maybe if the pet’s next attack after reaching the area was a launch to smacked the enemy off-point it’d see some use on it’s own merits.

(my response begins here)
If guard confined the pet to the aoe circle. Gave it pulsing protection and stealth while inside. Allowed the pet to function outside the leash range. AND either A: Reduced the damage it takes from hostile conditons while on point. or B: Dealt increased damage to any enemy within the circle. It would be useful in those circumstances.

Fluffball.8307:

Shadelang.3012:

that logic as flawed because signet of stone is superior in every single way except for the stun break.

“SoS is superior in a 2 ways (1 only relevant in PvP and not WvW) while PM is superior in 2 ways” is a better way to put it (and oddly enough, you even listed the 2 ways PM is superior to SoS )

I’ve always maintained PM is a better skill than SoS for a glassy LB. SoS doesn’t get you of of that bonfire or dragon’s breath or nade spam or whatever else is condi-killing you in mere seconds. The stun break on PM can’t be so easily dismissed.

(My response begins here)

Maybe not. But does it outway the passive toughness gain from signet of stone in hte majority of content. Does it outweigh the fact that the pet can still contribute to the fight while it is active. Even peeling for you or finishing off a person in a close fight. Does it outweight TWO sets of invuln. One for you AND your pet instead of no invulns at all but actually a transfer. Meaning as your pet runs back to you it will start taking double damage. Your damage and the damage it takes from cleave. Does it outweigh canceling any other shout utility you had running.

I can’t agree with that.

Edit; funny. seems signet of stone is superior in quite a few more than 2 ways.

Whether they have there uses or not isn’ t the question here. Are they comporable to there competition for there intended functionality.

I would say no in every single case. There competition is almost ALWAYS better. Frankly. it doesnt matter if in 10% of situations these are better. if in the other 90% there worse.
Ive used these utiltiies for years. I love them. I love using them and working with them as I have played pet focused playstyles in rpgs and mmos since I played a Magician in everquest 1.

I am probably one of the only rangers in the game that has truly used a full complement of shouts in over 80% of there game experience. I know these abilities inside and out as well as any other ranger in this game. That isn’t me bragging. Thats simply how much time ive invested in them.

And yet they have had the same flaws since they were released.

Guard doesn’t even do what it says. You cant trully leave the pet to guard an area. as once you step slightly outside of the standard leash range its attacks disable. Meaning even if an enemy is right next to it attacking it it simply won’t do anything. And if your in leash range and attack something your pet will instantly abandon the area its protecting.

Protect me is flawed as well. The biggest one is pvp related in that it prevents capture point contribution while signet of stone does not.

Some would argue thats alright because of the lower cooldown. However that logic as flawed because signet of stone is superior in every single way except for the stun break.
If the two were equal then the logic of the cooldowns would hold water. as it is now though it does not. Never mind the fact that signet of stone ALLOWS YOUR PET TO KEEP ATTACKING. While protect me does not. Meaning that wihle your backed into a corner you can not use things likes a wolf f2 fear or knockdowns to try and peel for you. if you do the skill will instantly cancel.

Search and rescue is simply terrible. Not only does it inherit the same weakness to poison. It also can be interupted, killed, blocked by terrain, blocked by ground based cc and bugged.

Other heal skills only have to worry about cast time/interuption and line of sight and the nature of poison on the downed.

As I said. Sic em is closest to its original intent in use. But the nature of shouts means that you can’t utilize any other utility skills while this one is active. Or else youl cancel it. That is simply irredeemable.

(I will be copying the pieces of my own posts that seem relevant. If you were a part of this conversation please re input your own posts)

If you run guard. Do you use it for its intended functionality. Or to pop boons.

If you run sic em. do you give any other order to your pet for the duration. Because that prevents you from using this skill to its fullest.

If you run protect me. How can you justify a defensive skill that kills our class mechanic and even prevents capture point contribution when its competition SAVES our class mechanic as well as us and doesn’t interfere with capture point contribution.

If you use search and rescue. How often do you find your pet gets interupted/killed while attempting to rez. How often does it succesfully rez something in an area too risky for you to attempt that rez. Does it do it on its own. or with signet of stone or bark skin WITH rampage as one protecting it. How much investment does that rez take compared to other rez skills.

Since my previous threat was merged in despite NOT being part of the heal as one threads Ill be remaking this here. Im going to copy past my posts. I strongly reccomend NOT merging this as it is part of a SEPARATE CONVERSATION. Or atleast give me justification as to why it has to be merged.

I was pretty dissapointed when I logged in today and saw the news.
But as things go I would rather use this as an opportunity to draw attention to the other shouts.
Shouts at this time in the game as far as utilities go…are sub par..in every way. shape. and form.
There is ALWAYS a better choice to take in every situation with the possible exception of sic em. This has been known for years.
At the moment NONE of the shouts are used for there intended functionality. Not a single one.
Guard is used to either stealth the pet or spam swiftness/regen. No one uses this to “Have the pet aggresively guard an area”
Protect Me is possibly the worst defensive skill in the game. As using it actually kills our class mechanic entirely. Most people I see slot this do so only for the stun break. And there are better options for this.
Search and Rescue is the worst rez skill in the game. Its the only rez skill that can be killed by down cleave…or even accidental cleave.
Sic Em is used largely for its reveal. Its use is the closest to its original functionality. But even this one is often used improperly due to what comes next.
Ranger Shouts are the ONLY utility set in the entire game that directly over rides its brethren.
Is your pet trying to rez someone or attack someone or taking damage to protect you and you want to help it stay alive? To kitten bad. Guard will cancel sic em/protect me/S&R the second you use it to try and help it.
This is just one example of MULTIPLE interaction flaws in this utility class.
And thats not even the most disruptive part of the shout playstyle that I have worked to master since the release of this game.
Ranger shouts are the only utility type in the entire game that actually discourages you from utilizing your class mechanic. The nature of shouts directly interferes with the use of f1-f4. As any command given to the pet will instantly cancel the order given to it by a shout.
So if you must nerf heal as one. Then please TRY to fix the rest of the shouts to make them work taking for there own sake. Or at least alter there functionality so there not BUTCHERING eachother.

Until I can get an awnser on my thread being un-merged. For those that were part of the shout utility conversation my post begins on page 7.

…Id like to dispute my thread being merged into this one. As it was on the subject of the other shout utilities and NOT on heal as one. Is there a way for me to request that it be re-seperated?

Honestly. I just want to know what they think the ranger SHOULD be able to do. Im serious. We cant seflishly stack might. Our group support only works in one game mode. Our overall dps is below that of other classes. Our class mechanic doesn’t work in any content with more than 5 players except in short bursts.

What are we supposed to be able to do?

Leodon.1564:

The heal had to change and everyone knew it. You can’t have it that the only reason a Ranger is in the meta is because of a single overpowered trait/heal. Its a bad design choice, leads to less diversity, and is a nightmare to balance around in the future.

Having this heal remain unchanged would have been an anchor around our necks when it came to buffing the many weak areas that currently exist for Rangers.

We all know that it had to be changed. No one is truly disputing that. Its that they went way too kitten far and one of the aspects of the nerf was one of the stupidest we have ever seen. Thats whats got people upset.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Shadelang.3012:

lorddarkflare.9186:

This is much more in-line with the sort of buffs the patch seems to have had.

The ranger needs fixes, but not like this.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Mcrocha.3891:

BolshoiBooze.3406:

Mcrocha.3891:

BolshoiBooze.3406:

Mcrocha.3891:

xarallei.4279:

You are going say with a straight face that THREE stacks of might is fair? Seriously?

When it had zero boon transfer before the patch, yeah that is fair.

It also wasn’t used in any gamemode before the patch. Hell, even with soldier runes TU is the better option.

False it can be used in both of the meta pve builds condi or power. And if you are running shouts in pvp/wvw people still slot it. Just because you don’t use it doesn’t mean other people don’t use it.

It’s inferior in almost every way. It heals less than TU, it doesn’t remove conditions when traited, it doesn’t keep your health over 90% nearly as efficiently (for scholar runes), you can’t use it preemptively, it doesn’t provide a water field like healing spring. The only thing you get from it is some worthless boons (swiftness and regeneration). It can be used, sure, just as search and rescue and guard can be used. It’s still outclassed by every other option out there, except for the water spirit.

Its less susceptible to spiking than is TU, it doesn’t potentially have a water field block fire fields. Some worthless boons? So it doesn’t apply might at all now? Actually it still gives might, and it gives small durations of useful boons like prot. This is the problem with it being broken before. A skill gets a nice little buff that is not extreme(and was what was expected when the patch was previewed), but everyone goes berserk because it isn’t broken like it was when the patch went live.

The problem is that Roy took offense to the might stacking, of all things. Despite the fact that several other classes stack might absurdly easily. Boon sharing between ranger and pet should have been baseline from the beginning, but when they finally implement it, their version is so watered down it might as well not exist. It’s a slap in the face, honestly. Professions which are already strong are allowed to stack boons, but the weakest profession in the game is not, because they think that that is balanced for some unfathomable reason.

I do not think it unfair to say: “No, you may not stack an ungodly amount of might in such a sort period of time as enabled by one skill.”

As enabled by one skill two trait lines sigil/rune investment and is dependent on burning your heal ON COOLDOWN.

Right. so you agree that it was a bad skill that should not have made it in.

Its mere existence warped possible balancing of the class and potentially the balance of other classes as well.

All for something that was not even altogether practical in PvP.

Ranger are absolutely right in demanding better from A-Net. We should always demand better, even if it means we do not get to play with a fun toy.

No. I don’t agree it was a bad deicision. The ONLY thing that was overpowered would have been fixed by a straight copy to the nature magic line. The additional nerf to the might was what pushed me over the limit there. I originally expected it to be a copy of the nature magic minor trait. They made it worse than that. Massively so.

The concept of sacrificing your defense for offense was FUN. It was engaging. And it actually made a difference. And it would have been retained if it was a straight copy of the nature magic minor. But in its current form that gameplay is gone.

oshilator.4681:

I’ve never been one to say “Justify your reasoning to me, Anet.”

But this time? Yeah. I want the reasoning/logic behind this change & why it was done the way it was done.

As others have said, warriors & eles stack might with ridiculous ease.

And what in the world was wrong with any of the boon durations besides quickness?

Agreed. An explanation on the logic and the opportunity to attempt to refute it would go a long way right now.

lorddarkflare.9186:

This is much more in-line with the sort of buffs the patch seems to have had.

The ranger needs fixes, but not like this.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Mcrocha.3891:

BolshoiBooze.3406:

Mcrocha.3891:

BolshoiBooze.3406:

Mcrocha.3891:

xarallei.4279:

You are going say with a straight face that THREE stacks of might is fair? Seriously?

When it had zero boon transfer before the patch, yeah that is fair.

It also wasn’t used in any gamemode before the patch. Hell, even with soldier runes TU is the better option.

False it can be used in both of the meta pve builds condi or power. And if you are running shouts in pvp/wvw people still slot it. Just because you don’t use it doesn’t mean other people don’t use it.

It’s inferior in almost every way. It heals less than TU, it doesn’t remove conditions when traited, it doesn’t keep your health over 90% nearly as efficiently (for scholar runes), you can’t use it preemptively, it doesn’t provide a water field like healing spring. The only thing you get from it is some worthless boons (swiftness and regeneration). It can be used, sure, just as search and rescue and guard can be used. It’s still outclassed by every other option out there, except for the water spirit.

Its less susceptible to spiking than is TU, it doesn’t potentially have a water field block fire fields. Some worthless boons? So it doesn’t apply might at all now? Actually it still gives might, and it gives small durations of useful boons like prot. This is the problem with it being broken before. A skill gets a nice little buff that is not extreme(and was what was expected when the patch was previewed), but everyone goes berserk because it isn’t broken like it was when the patch went live.

The problem is that Roy took offense to the might stacking, of all things. Despite the fact that several other classes stack might absurdly easily. Boon sharing between ranger and pet should have been baseline from the beginning, but when they finally implement it, their version is so watered down it might as well not exist. It’s a slap in the face, honestly. Professions which are already strong are allowed to stack boons, but the weakest profession in the game is not, because they think that that is balanced for some unfathomable reason.

I do not think it unfair to say: “No, you may not stack an ungodly amount of might in such a sort period of time as enabled by one skill.”

As enabled by one skill two trait lines sigil/rune investment and is dependent on burning your heal ON COOLDOWN….also your pet swap.

AgitatedFox.5287:

Nicely written post and I 1000% agree. Shouts are pointless. As are a number of skills on the rangers choice list.

Perhaps a shout that provides 12 might stacks to the whole party? like your pet doing it or something. Sure we have our Stalker but come on, guard gets 12 might stacks in 2 seconds (if that) of channeling, ranger gets 5 and we have to take a pet along that does only that.

Alternatively, remove shouts altogether and bring back preparations like what we had in GW1. Those things were the bomb.

I actually hoped that sic em would become the might method for the pet. Namely. Get rid of its target locked nature.

Have it so the pet gains super speed/quickness/might when cast. and let it attack whoever the kitten I tell it to isntead of canceling the second I try to actually play my class.

Haha ive got a thread below talking about the shout utilities if youd like to contribute it would be helpful. The more we discuss it the more likely anet sees it.

Ehecatl.9172:

Shadelang.3012:

If guard confined the pet to the aoe circle. Gave it pulsing protection and stealth while inside. Allowed the pet to function outside the leash range. AND either A: Reduced the damage it takes from hostile conditons while on point. or B: Dealt increased damage to any enemy within the circle. It would be useful in those circumstances.

I actually hate the stealth functionality of the skill as it doesn’t really make sense for what the skill is attempting to go. The pet is guarding the area so you’d expect it to make the pet keep enemies out of said area.

Now having the pet perform a launch on it’s next attack would do just that. Keep the enemy outside of the targeted area. Say a 300-600 range launch. Doesn’t sound too bad for a 15 second cooldown. Combine that with a longbow and you have a decent set up to keep enemies off point during skirmishes.

I feel the ranger shouts would’ve been more interesting if they were like physicals for the pet. Command the pet to attack in a certain way to provide hard control and team support through it. Instead we got a lot of seemingly random effects.

The idea of physical skills for pets is an interesting one. Though I imagine that would involve an entirely new utiltiy set. Im trying to keep most of my ideas close to the original intent of the skill. that way its more reasonable that the idea might actually be taken into consideration.

Id like to see physical skills for the pets on future elite specs though.

None of those durations are long enough to really make a difference in most situations… And those are all assuming our pet HAS those boons. Which most of the time they wont because lolpetsgetlowestboonpriority.

Yeah. Honestly if they had atleast left the might alone it would have been still useful. Now though…idk.

EDIT: Out of some vain hope a dev actually sees this and cares enough to respond ill keep the convo going as much as I can. However I lost alot of motivation at this point due to the way there handling things.

Looks like they took the lazy way out and made it a straight copy of the nature magic minor…Which means most aspects of this is useless. They even butchered it by limiting hte might you can get to 3 stacks.

Well the heal as one nerf just hit and its even worse than we thought it would be.

Heres hoping arena net is atleast willing to acknowledge the other shouts existences now.

Ehecatl.9172:

Sic ‘Em REALLY needs to not cancel when we use F2. That is a huge problem with the skill. If we could activate it and then use F2 for a 40% damage boost to our pet’s primary burst that’d be amazing.

Guard needs a complete overhaul. It doesn’t do what it was meant to do. Maybe if the pet’s next attack after reaching the area was a launch to smacked the enemy off-point it’d see some use on it’s own merits.

If guard confined the pet to the aoe circle. Gave it pulsing protection and stealth while inside. Allowed the pet to function outside the leash range. AND either A: Reduced the damage it takes from hostile conditons while on point. or B: Dealt increased damage to any enemy within the circle. It would be useful in those circumstances.

Fluffball.8307:

Shadelang.3012:

that logic as flawed because signet of stone is superior in every single way except for the stun break.

“SoS is superior in a 2 ways (1 only relevant in PvP and not WvW) while PM is superior in 2 ways” is a better way to put it (and oddly enough, you even listed the 2 ways PM is superior to SoS )

I’ve always maintained PM is a better skill than SoS for a glassy LB. SoS doesn’t get you of of that bonfire or dragon’s breath or nade spam or whatever else is condi-killing you in mere seconds. The stun break on PM can’t be so easily dismissed.

Maybe not. But does it outway the passive toughness gain from signet of stone in hte majority of content. Does it outweigh the fact that the pet can still contribute to the fight while it is active. Even peeling for you or finishing off a person in a close fight. Does it outweight TWO sets of invuln. One for you AND your pet instead of no invulns at all but actually a transfer. Meaning as your pet runs back to you it will start taking double damage. Your damage and the damage it takes from cleave. Does it outweigh canceling any other shout utility you had running.

I can’t agree with that.

Edit; funny. seems signet of stone is superior in quite a few more than 2 ways.

Eurantien.4632:

Protect me, Sic em, and Search and Rescue have their uses. Of all the shouts Guard is most in need of a change. Sic em just needs to allow for pet control. The other 2 are fine.

Whether they have there uses or not isn’ t the question here. Are they comporable to there competition for there intended functionality.

I would say no in every single case. There competition is almost ALWAYS better. Frankly. it doesnt matter if in 10% of situations these are better. if in the other 90% there worse.

Ive used these utiltiies for years. I love them. I love using them and working with them as I have played pet focused playstyles in rpgs and mmos since I played a Magician in everquest 1.

I am probably one of the only rangers in the game that has truly used a full complement of shouts in over 80% of there game experience. I know these abilities inside and out as well as any other ranger in this game. That isn’t me bragging. Thats simply how much time ive invested in them.

And yet they have had the same flaws since they were released.

Guard doesn’t even do what it says. You cant trully leave the pet to guard an area. as once you step slightly outside of the standard leash range its attacks disable. Meaning even if an enemy is right next to it attacking it it simply won’t do anything. And if your in leash range and attack something your pet will instantly abandon the area its protecting.

Protect me is flawed as well. The biggest one is pvp related in that it prevents capture point contribution while signet of stone does not.

Some would argue thats alright because of the lower cooldown. However that logic as flawed because signet of stone is superior in every single way except for the stun break.

If the two were equal then the logic of the cooldowns would hold water. as it is now though it does not. Never mind the fact that signet of stone ALLOWS YOUR PET TO KEEP ATTACKING. While protect me does not. Meaning that wihle your backed into a corner you can not use things likes a wolf f2 fear or knockdowns to try and peel for you. if you do the skill will instantly cancel.

Search and rescue is simply terrible. Not only does it inherit the same weakness to poison. It also can be interupted, killed, blocked by terrain, blocked by ground based cc and bugged.

Other heal skills only have to worry about cast time/interuption and line of sight and the nature of poison on the downed.

As I said. Sic em is closest to its original intent in use. But the nature of shouts means that you can’t utilize any other utility skills while this one is active. Or else youl cancel it. That is simply irredeemable.

Eurantien.4632:

I use 3 shouts out of my 5 skills. Regardless of what they do with HaO. Shouts aren’t that bad.

Eurantien. If 2 of those shouts are heal as one and rampage as one then there not what im referring to. Im specifically talking about the original 4 utility skill shouts. Do you regularly run Guard/sic em/ protect me/ search and rescue.

If you run guard. Do you use it for its intended functionality. Or to pop boons.

If you run sic em. do you give any other order to your pet for the duration. Because that prevents you from using this skill to its fullest.

If you run protect me. How can you justify a defensive skill that kills our class mechanic and even prevents capture point contribution when its competition SAVES our class mechanic as well as us and doesn’t interfere with capture point contribution.

If you use search and rescue. How often do you find your pet gets interupted/killed while attempting to rez. How often does it succesfully rez something in an area too risky for you to attempt that rez. Does it do it on its own. or with signet of stone or bark skin WITH rampage as one protecting it. How much investment does that rez take compared to other rez skills.

Photinous.4628:

We should twitter this to Roy since obviously that’s the new communication medium of choice for Anet.

I dont have a twitter account. but if you could please send him the url for this id be grateful.

I was pretty dissapointed when I logged in today and saw the news.

But as things go I would rather use this as an opportunity to draw attention to the other shouts.

Shouts at this time in the game as far as utilities go…are sub par..in every way. shape. and form.

There is ALWAYS a better choice to take in every situation with the possible exception of sic em. This has been known for years.

At the moment NONE of the shouts are used for there intended functionality. Not a single one.

Guard is used to either stealth the pet or spam swiftness/regen. No one uses this to “Have the pet aggresively guard an area”

Protect Me is possibly the worst defensive skill in the game. As using it actually kills our class mechanic entirely. Most people I see slot this do so only for the stun break. And there are better options for this.

Search and Rescue is the worst rez skill in the game. Its the only rez skill that can be killed by down cleave…or even accidental cleave.

Sic Em is used largely for its reveal. Its use is the closest to its original functionality. But even this one is often used improperly due to what comes next.

Ranger Shouts are the ONLY utility set in the entire game that directly over rides its brethren.

Is your pet trying to rez someone or attack someone or taking damage to protect you and you want to help it stay alive? To kitten bad. Guard will cancel sic em/protect me/S&R the second you use it to try and help it.

This is just one example of MULTIPLE interaction flaws in this utility class.

And thats not even the most disruptive part of the shout playstyle that I have worked to master since the release of this game.

Ranger shouts are the only utility type in the entire game that actually discourages you from utilizing your class mechanic. The nature of shouts directly interferes with the use of f1-f4. As any command given to the pet will instantly cancel the order given to it by a shout.

So if you must nerf heal as one. Then please TRY to fix the rest of the shouts to make them work taking for there own sake. Or at least alter there functionality so there not BUTCHERING eachother.

The new heal as one is a pretty clear choice and IMO makes the shout spec alot more fun. Its a pretty big decision to make mid fight (do I use my heal to prep for offense or do I save it for defense). I like it. And thats after playing shouts for 3 years now.

Harnel.6810:

The Smokescale is going to be delicious in pvp, particularly if you can get a good amount of might stacks going on it. I could easily see it doing about 15000 damage to a single target in one of its bursts.

Worth noting is that the fire wyvern is also going to be potent area denial – high might stacks plus burning? If you pick up expertise training, it has 1000 condi damage base and +20% condi duration, and is capable of more than covering most points in sPvP. Any might stacks applied are going to make the fire wyvern much more powerful in that respect. the Electric wyvern is largely going to fill the role the wolf does now (that of a CC beast that can constantly disrupt enemies) and is just as hard hitting as the fire wyvern. My real issue with the wyverns, though, is the slow rate of attack of their wing-bash thing, since it’s a two hit attack with something like a 1 second delay between strikes. That’s nasty, and not in a good way.

By the way Shadelang, we don’t get to control when the Smokescale gets its shadowsteps – we control when it spawns its smoke field. That of course means we can use it for stealth through leap and blast finishers, but we don’t have proper on-demand burst damage with the pet. Just random burst damage. Still, it’s an extra reason to take a sword or warhorn if we can manage to squeeze in a one-handed weapon for the mainhand. I’d personally go for the greatsword, though, because I operate with it better.

I think we’re going to be looking at a pretty potent combatant here, mostly due to attrition. Outside of spike damage (such as that delivered by super heavy conditions or backstab thieves) we’re going to be basically unkillable. If we also have Wilderness Survival for Bark Skin, though, we can easily survive everything except condi burst. Problem is, of course, that we want to amp up our pet, so we’d prefer Beast Mastery, Nature Magic, and Druid. Tough call.

As far as the smokescale attack goes. I find that pet attack patterns are actually quite predictable. But then ive been running EXTREMELY pet focused utiltiies for a very long time. The wolf for example is very easy to trigger its leap. I imagine the smokescale will be similar. There will be a situation as killed beastmaster can lead the pet into to trigger certain behaviors. Its a big part of what seperates the pet focused rangers and the rangers that just want to get RID of the pets.

I intend on testing all pets out as much as possible in the beta weekend in order to learn how to manipulate there attacks. After that ill start seriously testing the beast mastery focused druid build in order to locate key flaws I need to imrpove on.

One thing ive been concerned with is fury uptime. But depending on the nature of heal as one after todays patch. That may be a non issue. Im hoping for atleast 5 seconds of copy. though I imagine it will be 3-4 for fury similar to the minor trait in the nature magic line. Depending on the interaction BETWEEN these two traits however. That may be more than enough for what I have in mind.

(in reply to mistsim) I have a comment on the might stacking atleast. Im still up in the air about hte longbow staff synergy (staff gives more than enough mobility to close into melee range to burst heal and this is a hybrid so its role would be more to aid with recover than full time heal)

As far as might goes. Ranger actually has some pretty amazing synergy with might. Namely we can get it twice. Once on ourselves and again on our pet. Which is the basis to my build idea.

Pets actually deal rather high damage at 25 stacks of might. Something most people tend to forget because the glassier pets tend to die in melee combat. To that aspect there are two big things that SHOULD help that be a non issue.

First. Active defense/control on the new pets. Both the smokescale as well as both wyverns have high survivability through there skills. Either taking it off the damageable list. Or removing an opponents ability to fight it through evades/CC. The smokescale itself has a VERY high hitting f2. Which should scale impressively with 25 stacks of might and fury from SoTP. The fire drake with its aoe burn field shoudl also deal considerable damage. Thanks to base line condition damage as well as more condition damage through might and the strike damage from the skill. Which is also a long term evade.

Second: The ability ot actively heal the area around our pet outside of burning our heal skill to do so. The staff will actually aid in keeping pet alive through chip damage quite a bit. Even if accidentally.

What im trying to say is. Atleast as far as might goes. We scale with it just fine.

For a bit of background from where I ended up setting up for this: I have played a shout power ranger for the most part of the game since release. Building my character largely around control of the pet except in content where a pet simply wasn’t viable. Typically I ran assassin’s gear until recently. So you have a general idea of my playstyle.

Im not good at talking in order to grab peoples attention so ill get right into it.

With the lingering magic trait rangers have a base 20% increased boon duration. When combined with strength rune we have a total of 65% increased duration of any might we apply to ourselves. This is known. When combined with fortifying bond any might we gain either from ourselves or outside sources applies 16.5s duration might stacks on our pet. Currently im testing three sources of personnel might. Sigil of strength. Roasted Cactus. Strength of the Pack.

With these three I have found it trivially easy to maintain 20-25 stacks of might on my pet. And bursts of up to 15 stacks of might on myself. The upcoming heal as one change will include bursts of 25 stacks of might on myself (if it has the same scaling it will be PERMANENT 25 stacks of might with a traited heal as one) and my pet.

The reason I have done this is fairly simple. I am hoping to play druid. Yet while playing druid I can’t accept the idea of having minimal dps output as well. So I build a character around the concept of zealots gear and weaponry. With a couple cleric accessories and assassin’s in the slots I have left over after I meet my goal in healing power. (ill know what that goal is after ive tested the build and found out how the scaling actually is)

In other words. The build is designed as a ranged dps/support hybrid. Using longbow staff. And a permanently mighted pet to aid in melee combat. With a continuous 25 stacks of might in order to make up for the loss of ferocity and the might stacks we would normally get by being in a stack. I am making this under the assumption that the build will have a hard time surviving in melee combat where large burst damage is possible (raids) or in wvw where a druid in close range is begging to be nailed by the melee train the second one of them sees the flashing lights.

My question is. “Is the concept viable in your opinions” as in “Will it be able to succesfully act as both damage dealer and a support..swapping between them as the situation becomes necessary”

I have played ranger for an extremely long time. And I have as good a grasp on the class and its mechanics as I believe is possible. Yet I have found that often asking the community will produce options that otherwise had not been considered. Please awnser honestly with criticism or potential improvements. Ill be accepting ideas until the beta weekend begins.

Ausfer.1853:

Sylent.3165:

Scenario 1 – raids are truly difficult, a dedicated healer is needed. That would be a druid. So if that’s the case every one will need a druid, raids will be sitting in lfg needing a druid. Thus creating the issue anet stated this game would never have of needing a dedicated healer or tank to do things thus no queues.

Scenario 2 – druid isn’t needed. A full dps team or team with minimal valkyrie or knights armor can still beat the raids making druid 100% useless and simply not needed.

Is there a scenario 3 I’m missing? I just see this game slowly trying to turn into an mmo that’s been dying over the years and using the old mechanics of old mmos. I feel like guild wars 2 doesn’t want to be guild wars 2 anymore.

Scenario 3: A party with a druid means other party members need to worry less about dying. The rest of the party switches out survibility utility skills for offensive utility skills. People get downed less while proving more DPS which means they contribute more, and the raid is more manageable. Without the druid, the party adapts by changing their skillset and/or traits for more survibility.

Ergo: Raids are difficult. A druid is helpful, but isn’t absolutely required.

This is how I see it going as well. A druid makes the raid comp more secure. Allowing players to take more risk becuase theres a lifeline. The skill of a druid is going to be decided on just how far foward his team can lean over the cliff while the druid is holding onto there arm.

In a five man scenario it might not mean much.. That forward lean probably wont equal enough dps to make up for the loss of a PURE dpser so the druids in groups will most likely be hybrid dps/support characters. But in raids. If you can cause nine people to safely be able to do 9-10% more damage without fear of death. You have not only made up for your lessened (not zero) dps . But ADDED more in the overall fight through that. If raids are even a tenth as difficult as they should be. Youl either be taking multiple defensive cooldowns to save yourself. Or youl be taking offensive cooldowns and leaving the defense to the support/control players.

For raids ill probably be going longbow staff. Just to secure dps/heal uptime. In pvp ill prob go gs/staff or staff/sword axe. rock the mobility/control aspects.

In some of the posts above the conern about the lack of pet focused mechanics was brought up. Id like to bring up something ive been consisdering lately.

Shout Druids. Or any ranger taking the nature magic line shouldn’t be too concerned about this.

Nature magic line provides a copy of all boons you recieve to your pet. Meaning a ranger in melee wont have to worry about boon support for his pet as long as HES receiving boon support.

Shout rangers with the new heal as one will be able to do almsot the same thing in both directions. meaning they can use a ranged pet or be in ranged themselves with a melee pet in the group without concern of missing out on might. They can simply copy them over. When traited this will have a 16 second cooldown so thats pretty good uptime.

What im trying to say is that atleast as far as boons go the methods for maintaining boons on both the ranger and hte pet are already going to be available to us.. We can take BM and NM with shouts for complete boon coverage (as well as increased pet survivability/damage) and the druid line. We should be able to deal moderate dps even in a healing spec through a constantly maxed out pet while were keeping not only the pet but also our team mates alive.

Atleast that is how I percieve the available synergy.

Not to mention the fire wyverns ability to lay down a massive strike field. Witht he growing pulsing damage on that field thats ALOT of procs off of SoTP. Alot of procs that will probably hit for quite a bit with the 25 stacks of might we give it.

Im planning on going BM NM Druid. Zealots armor. Magi/cleric accessories. And probably a precision based rune in order to keep my crit chance up. And go hybrid dmg/healer based on multi hit attacks from longbow and staff since hte number one weakness of going double ranged is fixed with not only the heal as one change (boon stacking) but the staff skills as well (disengage capability). While keeping my might at 25 stacks continuously in order to account for the loss of ferocity. And since that might will also turn the pet into a kitten juggernaught I might as well run duel wyverns (cause double tiny dragons are a no brainer). With the heal skills I should be able to keep my pet alive in combat thanks to the fire wyverns flight ability and the electric wyverns hard CC while simultaneously dealing damage and supporting allies through traits like invigorating bond (which actually scales decently wel with healing power). Its gonna be an interesting time.

Gods. I havn’t scene this much mindlessness and crying in a forum for a long time. No wonder anet goes long period of times without posting. I can’t blame them anymore.

My thoughts on the matter.

The dragonhunter as a playstyle seems to be fairly stable. It has a clear goal and goes a long way towards meeting it. I like the design and I know ill be playing it in PvP.

Longbow skills seem fine to me. The symbol shot being fireable behind you is good enough as a deterent to peel something off your back. The symbol itself is really easy to trait into as well as there are certain traits that are mandatory for a zerk/burn/bunker guardian that simply won’t be as needed on a dragonhunter. The entire virtues line for one.

With the stand and fire nature of it it seems like its meant to be a risk/reward weapon where you need to understand the situation well to know what to use at what times. Im perfectly fine with that as the guardian actually lacks a weapon of this style. As long as the damage is worth the risk on the skills that ARE risky. (It seems like your pushing to make sure it is)

On traps there aren’t a terrible many changes id make. I like the concept of the traps and feel that as long as each one does what it is supposed to do then itl be fine.

What changes I would make though are as follows:

Light’s Judgement: I would actually give this a similar functionality to shadowtrap on the thief. Where the dragonhunter will be able to teleport to the aoe site. (Only while the trap is active) with a one second cast time on the teleport. This will make it useful as a method of convincing a target to back off. (This trap just triggered. There might be a kittened off guy coming through in a second)

Test of faith. I feel that this skill should be undodgeable and unblockable. It should do what it says. Punish people for crossing it. Similar to how attemtping to dodge roll over a line of warding will knock you down anyway this should apply its damage effect anyway. So they have to stop and consider for a second instead of lol rolling through and ignoring it.

Procession of blades. This trap I have mixed feelings on. On one hand it could work well with supreme justice/permeating wrath combo. On the other its not that great for a power based build. The damage it actually does in combat is fairly minimal and its threat is easily negated by protection.

Fragments of Faith. As this is the defensive oriented trap I would actually give this trap half a second of float so it can act as an interrupt as it is its primary method of protecting you actually runs the risk of distracting you mid fight. (oh god wheres the aegis shards I just put out ah kitten that necro over there just cast a signet on me)

Purification. As strange as this may sound I would push to have purification have a boon strip affect instead of blind. So that it removes 3-4 boons on the enemy that triggers it. That way it feels like a trap for the enemy as well as a heal for the guardian. Traps should be punishing to stand in. And if the guardian is popping his heal odds are you already have the advantage. Having your character reduced to your base mid fight though actually gives the opposing dragonhunter a chance to regain the upper hand.

Dragons Maw Im actually completely okay with. This is a pretty strong CC elite on a rather short cooldown that does a good job of punishing people that get caught in it. No problems here.

In all honesty im happy about this. It has convinced me to make my revenant a sylvari. It also gives hte content more replay value. Once as a sylvari. And again as non sylvari to see whats different. or vice versa.

From a lore perspective it makes sense. And it also does from a gameplay perspective as well. and its not uncommon. It reminds me of what people expected from the orders. The idea was picking a path would let you see a version of the game different from the other paths. Only the overall effect it had was minimal. Id imagine sylvari characters will learn secrets the other races will only learn seconhand.

Which is a decent reason to make one if you havnt already.

Hell they could have made this trait.

“Gain increased damage when you heal someone. Outgoing regeneration is increased. Effectiveness of damage boost is based on your healing power.

Below 500 healing power. 1% dmg boost for 2 seconds capping at 5 stacks.
Between 500-1000 healing power. 2% dmg boost for 2 seconds capping at 5 stacks.
Above 1500 Healing power 3% dmg boost for 2 seconds capping at 5 stacks.

That way its a direct boost to healing builds. Yet still potentially useful for pure damage builds in certain setups. It only triggers when it actually heals someone. It encourages spreading regen to hurt allies. And it encourages helping team mates recover while punishing the enemy thats attacking them with the increased damage you get from it.

I remember this trait originally increased power by 14% of healing power. That was enough of a scaling that I was considering running a zealots set to see if I could make use of lingering magic to create a might stacking high power build.

When it was given to us the players though it was reduced to 7%. Which kind of made it so that it simply wasn’t possible to stack enough healing power to even put a dent in the loss of ferocity. And we don’t have “enough” source of healing to justify the loss of damage. If I had been able to even do 85% of the dps of a zerk build I would have gladly swapped to zealots. But it was less than 70% of I remember it correctly. Especially if you were using a longbow (rapid fire damage dropped to like….6k on a medium target…the auto attack was less effected).

I was pretty dissapointed.

Edit: One possibility was to use a fury generation build to constantly apply opening strikes. And to use that in replacement of precision. However even then the amount of power you get from this trait even if your wearing say. A clerics amulet…is pathetic. Its a grand total of 84 power with an investment of 1200 healing power…what the hell. You will ALWAYS get more damage from its competition trait that gives 1% damage per boon on you.

And the other aspect of this trait doesn’t justify its poor performance. A bit of quickness just isn’t enough in the situation its supposed to function in. And the primary aspect of this trait doesn’t do what it seems to be about. Reducing some of the drawbacks of taking a healing power based build.

Infact. Tt puts you in an even worse position because a healing power based build would atleast have constant regenration on. Which adds more damage due to the 1% dmg increase than this trait does.

What I would have done is cause this build to increase damage for a short time when you produce healing on another player. Like when your regeneration ticks on a group of people. It could also have increased the actual effectiveness of outgoing regeneration.

So we gain damage when we heal people. And our aoe regen is more effective.