My main is Engineer
Ahh, makes sense. You play the class that has by far the most defensive utility of the sorts you described. What might seem easy to an engineer (and I know as I do play one myself) may be incredibly difficult or even impossible to some other classes.
You also repeat the fallacy of discussing these issues as if everything were a 1 on 1, in which case you’d be correct. Turn that into a 3v3 or a 5v5 and it’s an entirely different story.
The other side of it is that if you can CC someone, you can damage them as much as you like and they can’t stop it. Teammates can stop it to some degree, but that’s a fairly limited degree and it simply doesn’t work out in practice to stopping anyone’s burst very often. Heck, a smart player would use his stability for precisely this: to ensure that he can get his burst off on a CCed opponent, because stability isn’t going to prevent his getting CCed and bursted himself for reasons already elaborated.
I kind of see your point but CC’s in this game are very short in duration.
I think that if you see that the team meta strategy is to chain CC, you can counter by equipping builds specifically designed to deal with multiple CC’s and even shorten their already short duration.Also this is not Stun Wars where you could literally CC someone to death for minutes at a time.
In that game that diminishing returns system was so badly exploited it might as well not even be present, so a diminishing returns system does not solve the problem I think Arena.net took the best option, make CC’s short duration and have builds specific to counter CC heavy groups.
See, I think it’s interesting (and to me, telling) that you mention TOR because, as you’ll see from many of my recent posts on this forum, I played a lot of TOR (including in 2 high level PvP guilds) and I found the CCing in that game to absolutely pale in comparison to what I’ve experienced in GW2. It’s really not even close. I never died in TOR to CC the way I have in this game. It’s resolve system could uses a tweak or two, but when you understand it you can manage being CCed just fine.
On the other hand, GW2 doesn’t have any system to manage it, so even if someone thinks the TOR system was bad, at least it was present. Sure, CCs are shorter in this game, but they’re in much greater abundance and the amount of damage you can take in a 2 second GW2 stun is sooo much more than you can take in a4 second TOR stun or even in some cases two of those 4 second stuns chained that it’s amazing.
The idea of making builds just to counter CC is somewhat silly, in my opinion, for a few reasons. First, the problem with CC isn’t that any one class really has so much on its own that it can’t be managed. Rather its that, as I explained in my OP, multiple players chain stunning has no counter currently. That’s true even for the most anti-CC build you can come up with. More importantly, though, designing a build to very specifically counter a given thing means that that build is going to be pretty bad at almost every other thing. It’s almost like the people suggesting builds designed exclusively to counter Mesmer Phantasm builds. Sure, it might work to some degree, but it would be fairly useless against everything else – not to mention the fact that anything which requires a very specific build to counter is rather unbalanced by its very definition.
I agree the amount of pets is ridicilous. 8vs8 turns into 25vs 25.
Worse: 5v5 can turn into 25 v 25. It’s not likely, but a 50 “entity” tournament match is possible.
In this game, you get CCed, take damage, and then die because what minimal support healing there is can’t make up for it.
Allow me to disagree on that.
The self-heal is more than decent for most classes,plus you should have some sort of escaping mechanism.The problem is that when you are chain-CC’d you are also interrupted too easily and,as you have probably noticed,if you tried to use your healing skill you end up with it being on a longer CD than the rest!Which is a bit unfair.
I still think the whole system is alright as a concept,i saw your next post where you mention Resolve.I would also like to mention Unstoppable and Immovable from Warhammer Online,depsite the game having massive gameplay and other issues,these two worked excellent and added a whole new dimension of strategic play in PvP.Even so,it is the amount of burst damage some classes can pull out during those 3 to 4 seconds of lockdown that messes everything up.Some 1v2 fights are not only impossible (to be fair it should be well hard anyway so fair enough) but also annoying since you find yourself on the ground,on the air,immobilised,dazed.All that in a few seconds time.I would love to see the gameplay flowing.
edit: tell you what though,i think we are wasting our time on this.Strategic teamplay PvP seems like being the least of their priorities,at least at the moment.Might have to wait about a year for that to be fixed.
I was thinking more of team heals than self heals, which is why I called them support heals. In previous games, part of high level team play meant that when a teammate was chain CCed and focused, your healers gave him special attention and your tanks used whatever mitigation they could to protect him.
In GW2, there is a degree to which teammates can provide healing or damage mitigation to a player suffering from this, but its very minimal and ultimately not enough to consistently make much of a difference.
In all of the discussion of sPvP/tPvP that is found in this and other places, one complaint seems to come up with some measure of consistency, and that is the way that CC and burst damage make PvP to be feel very zergy right now.
Ultimately, one of the big issues people are encountering is that its very easy to find oneself chain CCed in the midst of a battle and, having only one or at best two escapes, to have no choice but to eat burst damage and die quickly.
Now in 1v1s, CC seems fairly balanced in this game. In 5v5s, 3v3s, 2v2s, etc., it doesn’t. This is because if professions are balanced, then any one player should have sufficient CC and CC escape to match another player evenly, but in battles involving multiple players, and 2 or more players using their CCs on any one will provide more control than his class is actually technically capable of surviving.
This is not unique to GW2 specifically, but is true of combat in any MMO with CCs, and not only is it arguably unfair, but its inarguably not fun to get killed through CC with no ability to do anything about it. To mitigate this problem, other games have introduced passive mitigation systems. Some have used a diminishing return system, whereby every consecutive CC used within a given period of time on a single player would last for shorter and shorter durations. Others have used immunity stacking, whereby all CCs used in a given period of time would contribute points towards some period of immunity, such that if, for example, you are CCed twice immediately in a row, you become immune for some given period of time. Besides just making CC less annoying, these systems introduce a particular element of tactics and skill to these games, as players must manage their own and opposing players’ stacks/DR/etc. to achieve the best outcomes for their battles.
GW2 has given us stability to deal with CC, but it doesn’t really achieve this same goal and serves instead as a good option for more specific situations and really serves the same role as the abilities some classes have to gain on-demand immunity for short periods in other games – games which also have the universal passive mitigation. As a general counter to excess CC, it’s not very good for several reasons. First, it’s more accessible to some professions than others. Second, its not always easy to get even for those professions for which it is available. Third, it generally has a relatively long cooldown, and it should, given its strength, but that’s part of what makes it strong for particular situations but bad for general management of excess CC. Fourth, its easy to watch a players boons and wait until it has expired to chain CC him, knowing that he will not have access to it for a long time.
Ultimately, I think that this one addition alone would double if not increase even moreso the fun and tactical effort required in GW2 PvP.
All in all, there’s no question that CC is far too strong in this game. As I’ve said elsewhere, I come here directly from TOR, which was ridiculed for having supposedly absurd amounts of CC, but it’s nothing compared to what I’ve experienced in GW2. I’m a guy who never, ever thought there was too much in that game. If you weren’t bad about the way you handled the CC, it was not an issue.
The single biggest problem GW2 has CC-wise compared to these other games is that they all had a universal mitigation system. In TOR, you have the resolve system… every time you’re CCed, you build a set amount of resolve, and at a certain amount you become immune to CC. WoW had a diminishing returns system. Etc. Now none of these were perfect, but if you understood them you could do perfectly well.
The most important function of these systems was to manage how CC can affect players in multi-player battles. Every class having some theoretically balanced amount of CC and each class having one or two stun breaks – which is what we’ve seen in every other game as well as GW2 – makes CC in 1v1 combat balance fine. However, it becomes a problem when you have 2 or more people’s amount of CC to dump on a single person… it’s actually one of the very few things that you can’t deal with in an MMO. Even being focus fired can be dealt with by smart use of defensive cooldowns, line of sight, etc. – in other games and this one. CC on the other hand, because it takes control away from the player, is virtually impossible to deal with in a 1 v 2 or more context.
These universal mitigation systems take care of that. Note that I’m not talking about 1 v2s, here, as I know a lot of folks will respond with the far too easy “you’re not supposed to win a 1v2!” I’m just talking about a 2v2, or a 3v3, or heck, even an advantageous bout like a 5v4. Even in such matchups, a single person is susceptible to excess CC. Other games have had systems to eliminate this unfair advantage. GW2 does have stability, but the problem is that it’s not necessarily easy to get, its got a cooldown, and it’s easily countered by opposing teams who can simply choose to chain CCs on a person not showing a stability buff, or even wait until it wears off to chain CCs, knowing there will be no escape for that player.
CC is gw2’s answer to no healers. So, bring some yourself to counter theirs. Interrupt their second stun, dodge out of it if you know it’s coming.
Actually, as another poster said, this is completely backwards.
In other games, healers are ultimately an answer to CC. You get CCed, you take damage, but it’s ok because you are also getting healed. In this game, you get CCed, take damage, and then die because what minimal support healing there is can’t make up for it.
Stop being bad, that is the first step. I am getting tired of all the bad PvP players coming to cry and cry and cry…
You don’t like to be stunned? DODGE or bring STABILITY! It is that simple, the problem is YOU not the game.
Ahh… so with your incredible skill, you’re able to dodge 3 times in a row and break out of all the stuns 2 players can toss at you, then?
Don't see the point of the PvP gear in GW2, maybe I don't get the system?
in PvP
Posted by: Skolops.2604
Being in the worst gear and facing someone in the best gear never felt as bad as some of the stuff I’ve experienced in this game (in the tankiest of builds, at that!) The potential is there, but some tweaks definitely need to be made.
The game is new and FoTM will exist in any MMORPG
About this topic:
Ranger- Their pet is their class mechanic deal with it
Guardian- Spirit weapon army is a build with lack of utilitys
Ranger- Spirit Ranger is the same has the guardian with spirit army
Necro- Same has last 2
Ele- It’s a elite and a utility
Mesmer- Clones are so weak, phantasmal are the dmg dealers and at tops there are only 2
Thief- It’s a elite, should be goodRune of the Ogre- Hello Mr nerf hammer
And don’t forget, they are all npc and all npc are dumb, predictable andkitten /p>
None of this changes the fact that with all of these on the field at once, its virtually impossible to have any clue what’s going on – and this is coming from a StarCraft player who is perfectly capable of taking in a lot of information with a quick look.
Nor does it change the fact that, however small, these items introduce computer AI into the outcomes of PvP battles – something which is so contrary to what PvPers want that it’s shocking that they even considered this stuff for the game, let alone actually implemented it.
On the Ranger Shortbow, it’s not as bad by far as it’s being made out to be. It’s rate of fire is only very slightly faster than other class’ #1 skill. Comparing it to the longbow is silly, because it starts with the assumption that the longbow is good – which its not. The shortbow is honestly fine, and the fact that it does as much power damage as the longbow is a tribute to how awful the longbow is, not to how strong the shortbow is. The longbow is far and away behind other class’ options for damage. Heck, so is the shortbow. The class is designed that way, because a lot of Ranger damage is supposed to come from the pet.
The shortbow (and longbow, for that matter) has an incredible weakness that at anything more than very close range, half of the autoattack shots miss even to non-dodging opponents simply because of its slow trajectory travel. Because Rangers are also enormously weak at managing CC, the way to deal with them is to chill, cripple, or immobilize then and get away. All of a sudden, they can’t even hit you. Alternatively, you could immobilize them and then kill them, since once you do immobilize they don’t have many options to get away from whatever you want to hit them with.
As to the larger point, it’s correct. While the shortbow isn’t by any means overpowered, its not by any means especially fun, either. Like most weapons for most classes in the game, it’s really a matter of strafing around while the CPU autofires for you.
I think the big culprit is that we only have 5 skills per weapon, or 10 total (though we can’t really say we have 10 skills because of the weapon swap cooldown). In other games, most classes would have 20 or 30 abilities which, depending on their spec, they may use 10 or so out of. However, of those 10, perhaps 2 of them would have no cooldown, a few might have 3 – 6 second cooldowns, still others 10, and a few at 20 or 30. This is not counting, by the way, the utility abilities that each class would bring.
This meant combat involved using your cooldown free skills most of the time while constantly managing the cooldowns on your shorter and moderately timed abilities, throwing in utilities when necessary. It took thought. Right now, this game is honestly about running around, letting autoattack spam, and using your other situational abilities when those very obvious situations came up in which to use them.
I think this is why of all the classes I’ve played, the Engineer feels more like a real MMO class. With its various kits, it has a wide range of options to use in combat and I am actually rarely letting my autoattack fire. Even the thief feels closer to having skill involved, because it has a resource to manage.
I’d agree with most of what you said, especially about the pets. Now, I understand that, like the Necromancer poster said, pets for him are support, but that doesn’t change things. The point is that, in the end, all of these Engineer, Mesmer, and Necromancer builds which use pets/turrets involve the introduction of computer AI into what is supposed to be player versus player – regardless of how great or small its contribution may be – and that really hurts the integrity of the PvP experience.
Moreover, completely apart from that issue is the fact that the battlefield just turns into a giant mess with everyone and his brother having 2 – 3 pets out at the same time. and it really kills the experience.
I would really only largely disagree with you on quickness. I think quickness gets a bad rap for what is a much larger problem with the combat system in this game. The truth is that even outside of quickness, the strengths of many of the attacks in this game are enormous, and when you pair this with stuns, immobilizes, focus targeting, and a lack of dedicated healing, it just turns into a giant zerg with people dieing far too quickly. Take quickness out of the game and you really wouldn’t see any of the things you hate and attribute to it changing. There needs to be a much larger adjustment.
Im kinda sad they tuned down HS .. Maybe it was needed, but i really dont think it was.
Im sad mostly because it shows that whiners got listened (as always) and its not good news for the game.
Like OP said the problem is mass of new players without knowledge facing players that have faster learning curve or did beta test the game = people whine for overpowered skills/classes
People should be less arrogant and accept the fact that some players are better than them, at this time, and it should motivate them to improve.
But nowadays people want everything now and for free because they think they deserve it or whatever crap is in their mind.
So they cry then the game gets nerfed/unbalanced and we wait for the next game. rings a bell , anyone ?
Wait, all of this coming from the person who is whining in two other threads about Entangle?
First of all, the whole point of any attack is to deter from you’re opponent’s fun in PvP by making him lose.
Second of all, the annoyance is, like i said, a much bigger issue related to the way this game works as a whole and far less to this particular skill. Heck, some of the other elite skills are vastly more annoying than this is.
It’s an elite skill. It’s not supposed to be like every other root. It’s meant to be, well, elite.
It’s not even that strong, either. I can’t remember the last time I saw one used in PvP that didn’t immediately die.
You’re not wrong about the hectic nature of PvP right now, but that’s a bigger problem that isn’t related to this one particular skill.
CeCaKonVeu, use whatever defensive cooldown you have and attack the vines. If you haven’t brought some kind of invulnerability or other very strong defensive cooldown, you’re a glass cannon in this game, regardless of how much health and toughness you have. It stinks, but its a game problem, not a Ranger (or any other class) problem.
It has health, is attackable, and dies fairly quickly. I can honestly say that when I use it in PvE, its a faceroll, but when I use it in PvP its virtually always about 2 seconds before I wonder why nobody is still stuck in the vines anymore.
On top of what’s been already said about it being a giant mess, it really makes the PvP a lot more about PvAI or PvRNG than anything.
The game was heralded as a huge departure from what was dubbed “Player versus Gear” in other games, but its ended up being “Player versus CPU” more than anything.
I think its related to the crackling fire sound – or at least I think the fire crackling sound is one item with which its related. Typically, when I notice the problem in the open world I also hear the fire crackling sound from torches (at least the ones in the Norn areas) constantly, even when there are no torches nearby.
It is similar to a bug that happened in TOR, where an electricity crackling noise from the Spike ability would cause music and other sound effects to disappear until reloading the game. I don’t think the similarity is in that they’re both crackling noises, by the way – just that one particular effect somehow interfered with others.
Don't see the point of the PvP gear in GW2, maybe I don't get the system?
in PvP
Posted by: Skolops.2604
Skolops you can still swap your runes on your armor if that’s what you mean.
Certainly, but its not as interesting to me as being able to customize stats like you can in PvE (or other games). The runeset you use is a part of your stat customization, but its relatively small.
The real unfortunate thing about the runes is that I find you rarely get to pick them for their diverse effects – which is really what they’re for – but instead have to choose them to pad whatever stats you can’t get enough of because of the amulet/jewel “presets.”
I think its a big problem. You can have up to 50 entities in a 5 v 5 match with all the different pets/turrets/etc. It’s just silly
Don't see the point of the PvP gear in GW2, maybe I don't get the system?
in PvP
Posted by: Skolops.2604
I’m one who absolutely likes gear stat progression in other MMO PvP and I was a little disappointed about not having it in GW2. Having played it for a while, I’m actually OK with it, but I wish the customization was a little more free. Having only the amulet and jewel as opposed to being able to customize each piece of gear as we can in the PvE environment is a big bummer for me because I’ve always been a huge fan of min/maxing and optimizing things… it’s the game within the game. In GW2, you can still do this to a degree, but its pretty limited.
It’s not just Norn, but gamewide. It’s also not just story dialogue, but sound effects, ambient dialogue, etc.
I don’t think its the numbers. I’ve played 8v8 in other games and it doesn’t feel nearly so zergy as this. 5v5 doesn’t feel much less zergy to me, either. I really think its because of the way damage is so insane in this game that time to kill shrinks almost exponentially with each additional player, so facing a group coming at you just feels incredibly zergy.
It’s not only cutscenes, but also random in game dialogue/effects/sounds
The OP is very correct. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: for every one of the responses along the lines of, “what do you expect with 2 people targeting you? You should die,” I can respond by saying that in other games – heck in a game which had so much CC it was dubbed “Stunwars” – you COULD survive dieing in these situations if you were skilled enough.
Despite the repeated claim leading up to the launch of GW2 that it fixed the problems with CC and whatnot in other games, and that it made skill more of a factor, the end result is that it really takes a step backwards. In those other games, most classes had a single stun and you had a single break. In this game, some professions can bring a tremendous number of stuns and CCs, while some have a very hard time bringing even a single break. Rangers, for example, can’t even break immobilizes.
CCs are very short in this game, that’s true, but incoming attacks do 3 or 4 times the damage relative to your HP than those in previous games, so in that 1 second immobilize you can lose literally half of your HP.
The chain-CCing and the giant mess of pets are causing PvP in this game to be pretty lacking in fun right now, and its disappointing because I think the potential is there.
I’ve noticed this happening with these sounds and other effects after the most recent update – as have a lot of others. Some have reported resetting sound settings to default (particularly putting sound quality right in the middle) improves matters, but I’m not sure on that.
This is also happening with the majority of all medium armors (not only the karma ones). The odd thing is that they seemed to work fine until about a week into the game, and then it showed up all of a sudden. It’s actually fairly annoying!
I was having the same sound problem for the first week or so as well as having fps rates vary from 10-60. I would sometimes lose sounds while in explorable zones but most often it was after loading a new zone and pretty consistent in Lion’s Arch. This past weekend I upgraded my old Phenom II X2 550 to a (slightly newer) Phenom II X4 965. The older dual core was always running at or near 100% utilization when I was having sound or fps issues but since I’ve had the quad core cpu in I haven’t had either problem (even in WvW large fights). I also haven’t played since last night 9pm PST so I don’t know if I’d have the problem today.
This is pretty unscientific for sure and I wouldn’t suggest everyone upgrade their cpus (seeing how the X4 is still a fairly old processor) but could this be due to client optimization overall and not necessarily sound cards/drivers?
Maybe for some people, but I don’t think this is the problem. My Quad core has never had a problem running the game or the sounds, but it did begin after the recent update.
As of the 9/14 update, its happening to me all the time. Cutscene dialouge, ambient dialouge, player voiceovers, and sound effects cut in and out, and sometimes play but extremely quietly.
It’s also causing explosions, ambient and informational dialogue, and other sound effects to play only some times.
Also now seeing a bug where sound effects play only intermittently.
Ok, I can now confirm that it happens to all kinds of sounds all across the board.
Footsteps, NPC dialogue, character information dialogue (“I can run like a centaur,” “Might makes me right,” those kinds of lines), explosions, weapon fire.. virtually everything is very spotty right now.
(edited by Skolops.2604)
Ever since the most recent update, I am experiencing random instances of NPC dialogue being silent. This happens during cutscenes as well as to ambient dialogue while roaming the world. It’s only particular lines – half of the lines in a cutscene and some of the NPC ambient dialogue will be played, but others will not. Now I have also experienced an issue since about a week ago whereby viewing a vista causes all sound effects to disappear until I attack something a few times.
but I’m not sure if these items are bugs or some kind of problem with my system/file structure/etc.
How would 5vs5 reduce a zerg mentality. Surely 8vs8 actually increases your strategic options.
One of the most boring aspects of WoW BGs was the “defending”. Sitting on a point for a whole game that no one ever attacks, and if they do its a whole zerg that you just die to anyway.
Also you say that players won’t afk for glory because you don’t need it for gear upgrades. However, you can use the same logic against your argument that players just zerg for the points.
I’m partly being the devils advocate, because I have seen the games you talk about; but I also get a lot of close games and non zerg games, and almost all the time it is a fun experience.
I can’t speak for WoW, but in TOR, if you were guarding a point, you called out the incoming attackers and then held them off until your help arrived. It worked perfectly fine, and there was a defender’s advantage – as there is in real lie battles, as there should be in games and as there is in every game of every genre I’ve ever played. This game absolutely has an attacker’s advantage, and I think it really ruins the PvP experience.
Killing more should make your team win, nothing is stopping the other team from running as a group, there are some great 5v5 + fights if you run as a group
The problem is that in other games, killing more has led to winning more because its helped you accomplish the objectives of the map, whereas in this game, killing more leads to winning more because it works better than trying to concern yourself with the objectives. Objective play is actually discouraged by the current system. You could actually remove the objectives from the maps altogether and not change all that much about the way people are playing these maps right now.
problem is that everything else encourages all these afk leechers to “defend” one point with 6 people.
I don’t see how it does or should. In other games where defending is important, normally one or two people – depending on the circumstances – stay behind to defend and everyone else moves around as needed. Once a game reaches a point where its out of reach you’ll often have people hang around the defense point to get some rewards, but before that they normally play to win.
For example:
how is it even possible that a mesmer illusion is hitting the same dmg then some highest burst attack of other classes?My Illusions are hitting for 0-4 dmg per hit.
Not sure if trolling or just plain stupid.
It`s not direct dmg that counts, It`s bleeding they apply. I have 57% crit chance and trait Sharper images (illusions inflict bleeding on crit hit). My clones apply vuln or bleed on hit plus one more bleed on crit (and they crit a lot), so if you have 3 clones out and Staff in your hands (with Sigil of Earth – 60% chance to apply 5 sec bleed on crit) it`s really easy to stack up more than 10 stacks of bleeds in only few seconds.
I know that because im playing nearly the same build. But thats defintely no burst damage and can easily be countered by removing conditions.
The way conditions work in this game, it can be pretty bursty. You also need to realize that “oh just remove conditions” is not by any means a viable solution for every class. As a Mesmer, you’re playing one of the classes which can have a lot of access to condition removal, but some others have a much harder time.
Stacked bleeding is in no way bursty but good sustained damage. Were not talking about burn or confusion that may become bursty. Point is the mesmer clones dont burst somebody down.
Anyway the clones can be easily countered by aoe.
Only the phantasms can pull out some burst damage because they are the mesmer burst skill.
Exactly this is what people don’t understand, those two classes get wrecked easily by AoE. Its just the fact that no one is intent on making AoE comps with a friend or making reliable solo AoE themselves.
I think this is closer to a balance problem than anything.
First, some classes don’t really have any particularly strong AoE – at least apart from otherwise lackluster weapons that they may not want to have to bring just to counter one class.
Second, it’s not quite balanced that Mesmers can be so easily countered by one of those AoE heavy classes like the Elementalists – or that they can be so easily countered without really trying when people just lazily lay down AoE to indiscriminately kill stuff without needing to pay attention.
I think, ultimately, the whole pet concept itself (Mesmers, Necros, and Engineers) is a bad mechanic which takes away from the quality of PvP.
Immobilize is the only way to currently counter Stability. Stability itself is very strong, and with no way to counter it everyone will be requires to take stability this removing any need or use for CC, meaning everything turns into more of a zerg-rush DPS blitz than it already is. No thank you, immobilize is fine, especially since most immobilize is hard to land.
Immobilize is not hard to land. I can think off the top of my head of an extremely easy way to do it for at least 4 classes – in some cases more than one.
I’ve seen this argument about stability being strong before, so specifically the same in fact that I wonder whether you’re the same person. I just don’t think it’s a very good argument. First, stability typically has a long cooldown and only lasts for a short time. Second, it doesn’t guard against chill and cripple, two of the most deadly CCs because of the duration they can be applied with. Third, why this burning need to stun people such that stability should be considered so strong? What’s wrong with letting people actually have control over their characters?
The fact is – and this is mostly related to that third point – that immobilize is the single biggest contributer by FAAAR to the DPS zerg fest. It forces you to take your opponents’ burst, it can be stacked to last for an extremely long time compared to stuns and knockdowns, it isn’t mitigated by stunbreaks but only by a few select skills which are, frankly, available to some classes by a gross degree more than others. I can tell you from my personal experience that virtually every time I’ve ever died in this game’s PvP its been from being immobilized and, having no way to escape it available at the time, eating 15k of damage that I’d otherwise dodge.
For example:
how is it even possible that a mesmer illusion is hitting the same dmg then some highest burst attack of other classes?My Illusions are hitting for 0-4 dmg per hit.
Not sure if trolling or just plain stupid.
It`s not direct dmg that counts, It`s bleeding they apply. I have 57% crit chance and trait Sharper images (illusions inflict bleeding on crit hit). My clones apply vuln or bleed on hit plus one more bleed on crit (and they crit a lot), so if you have 3 clones out and Staff in your hands (with Sigil of Earth – 60% chance to apply 5 sec bleed on crit) it`s really easy to stack up more than 10 stacks of bleeds in only few seconds.
I know that because im playing nearly the same build. But thats defintely no burst damage and can easily be countered by removing conditions.
The way conditions work in this game, it can be pretty bursty. You also need to realize that “oh just remove conditions” is not by any means a viable solution for every class. As a Mesmer, you’re playing one of the classes which can have a lot of access to condition removal, but some others have a much harder time.
1) In a team fight, you need to dodge many things. Using them only for hard hitting attacks, you’re likely to run out.
This is correct. However in a team fight, each team should be Focusing dmg on 1 player. If there is a HS Thief, he should be first priority since he dies quickly and puts out burst DPS. If your team didn’t focus or didn’t target him first, whoever he kills deserves to die because of bad teamplay on your side.
snipping the rest
I have to say that performance when outnumbered relies a few different things. Your Spec, Your Runes, Jewels, and your actual decision making and gameplay all play a part in this. If you’re loading up your stats for DPS and not survivability you better bekittenagile because a Glass Cannon will eat you up. If you’re state and spec is for survivability you will still need to make sure you’re not burning defensive cd’s like crazy because 2 players with the right skill setups will still eat through you.
These classes haven’t had crazy sweeping changes since the last BWE yet the complaints are way crazier than anything I saw then. [/quote]
I keep coming back to the point that I think the way CC interacts with the dodge mechanic is the biggest problem. While I’d agree, for example, with all of your points about 90% of the way, I can’t say you’re quite correct because all of those ideas rely on not being CCed. Obviously we are going to be CCed at times. However, its currently far too easy to find yourself rooted, snared, or stunned with no way to respond to it.
It’s really an issue of scaling. The offensive skills/cooldowns are, for the most professions, far ahead of any defensive skills/cooldowns when looked at as a whole. In 1 v 1s, everything tends to work great (though a few things could be tweaked). In team fights, its just too easy to kill people with coordinated CC. It’s not even this easy in TOR, a game frequently ridiculed as having excess CC.
Agreed!
If all the gear options are still of the same “tier,” then there shouldn’t really be a problem with doing this.
I honestly think some of the balance complaints we are seeing would go away if it were possible to get better stat refinement rather than having to sacrifice traits which we might prefer (so as to deal with problem x, y, or z) in order to get those extra stat points in some other trait line.
Of course, I suppose it could introduce some more unbalanced builds as well, but I feel like the net result would be an improvement.
I’m hoping for fixes to the water map, maybe announcements about plans for more modes and maps. Seriously, the water map is horrendously imbalanced and not fun to play on. A lot of other things need work too. For example, there’s no good incentive for people to stay and finish a match, I believe this extends forward to create more problems like auto balance that people are complaining about.
You guys really should reduce the sPvP size to 5v5. Making tournaments 5v5 is essentially admitting that that is the balanced team size for the maps, so why is 8v8 even a real option? Zerging is already the superior option in sPvP because it tends to yield the most points.
Speaking of points, why is point acquisition so rigid? You could be doing something important like staying back to defend a point, and getting nothing for it. Meanwhile if you zerg and just tag enemies with a few hits you get the full point amount for the kill/defense. The points for uncapping a point should not be the same as for capping a point. It would be more efficient to simply run around uncapping points since standing there to cap the point is not an efficient use of time for getting glory points.
Yes, the lack of what would be considered in other games playing smart and defending points is really hurting the whole experience for me and I believe a lot of folks. Of course, part of that is that the sheer speed at which players can be killed right now makes defending an unintelligent decision, as it gives the other team an easy in to send 2 players your way, take the point and score the kill on you.
I’d agree with the OP in general, but I don’t think its a thief problem. I think its a problem with the fact that the game has some very high damaging abilities which demand evading, lots of stuns, and team battles where all of your defense needs to be used up eventually. On top of this, there’s no “real” damage mitigation like tanks in other games and nothing comes close to real healing like in other games, so that spike damage is especially powerful.
CC breakers are usually always down in sPvP. And regardless, the damage thieves do is too high. You just can’t justify insane damage for any class by saying you should break stun.
You are -exactly- the person this post is referencing. You don’t bring any empirical evidence, just vague notions and complaints. No examples, no explanations, just “Waah, thieves hit too hard.”
If a thief is hitting you that hard, he’s glass cannon, or you are – there are ways to counter; Learn them, or get used to the feeling that every spec/class that beats you is OP.This is not accurate. I have builds for both Ranger and Warrior which are not glass cannons by any means but can down a person in seconds if I can get a stun or immobilize off on them.
The only thing I’d agree with you on is that this is not a thief specific problem. It’s a greater issue with the way several overall game mechanics interact:
1) Heavy hitting attacks designed with dodge/evade in mind
2) Large supply of CCs across all/most classes
3) Low supply of CC breaks per class
4) Team play where several players can chain CCs on an individual1) dodge should not be used liberally. if you’re dodging twice at the start of every fight and evading some useless autoattacks, and then you get blown up by evisercate…kinda on you right?
2) same as #1. if someone uses their CC breakers the first time they get slowed, or on meaningless fears, and then they dont have it up for when they really need it…its their own fault.
3) each class has at least 3 utility CC breaks, and they ALL have shorter CD than quickness burst skills
4) several players vs 1 player. who should win?
1) In a team fight, you need to dodge many things. Using them only for hard hitting attacks, you’re likely to run out.
2) Same as #1
3) This is demonstrably false. I know the Ranger best so I’ll just use them as an example, but I’m certain that it is not the only example which contradicts your claim. They have only 2 CC breaks, not 3. Moreover, its not only quickness you need to dodge. The 17k/3 second warrior rifle burst build I’ve brought up in a few threads has no quickness but enough immobilize to make you eat the whole burst. 100 Blades or heartseeker or any other big hitter hurt badly enough without quickness to warrant dodging, etc.
4) I don’t believe that in a 2 v 1, the 2 should always win. Most of the time, probably yes they should. However, part of what makes games more interesting is not knowing the outcome. If a game were designed such that 100% of the time, X players always loses to X+1 or more player, it would be a pretty boring game, either to watch or play. It would just be about making sure you show up with a numbers advantage to each fight and then what little drama there was would be over.
That said, even if I grant that 2 players should always beat 1 player, that doesn’t mean that the speed and ease with which they can do it in this game right now is good. When I’ve played other games, whether I was playing a tank or a squishy DPS, I could always at least hold out against 2 or 3 people for at least some period of time while hoping for backup. In this game, when 2 competent players show up against 1 they can stunlock/rootlock and kill him almost instantly. It’s just not interesting or fun, and it doesn’t lend itself to trying to any kind of smart or long range strategic play on the PvP maps, but encourages zerging and other least common denominator styles of play.
CC breakers are usually always down in sPvP. And regardless, the damage thieves do is too high. You just can’t justify insane damage for any class by saying you should break stun.
You are -exactly- the person this post is referencing. You don’t bring any empirical evidence, just vague notions and complaints. No examples, no explanations, just “Waah, thieves hit too hard.”
If a thief is hitting you that hard, he’s glass cannon, or you are – there are ways to counter; Learn them, or get used to the feeling that every spec/class that beats you is OP.
This is not accurate. I have builds for both Ranger and Warrior which are not glass cannons by any means but can down a person in seconds if I can get a stun or immobilize off on them.
The only thing I’d agree with you on is that this is not a thief specific problem. It’s a greater issue with the way several overall game mechanics interact:
1) Heavy hitting attacks designed with dodge/evade in mind
2) Large supply of CCs across all/most classes
3) Low supply of CC breaks per class
4) Team play where several players can chain CCs on an individual
I would argue the point on necros. There are necro builds which are just like you describe some mesmer builds being – almost impossible to kill while pumping out very solid damage.
I tend to find elementalists the weakest class I come up against, but some of their builds are very good where CC is concerned and can be very strong. Even bringing a full condition cleanse and 3 stun breaks, I was manhandled by one elementalist who kept me knocked down or stunned so much that I barely got to fight back. Improving my own skill and, more importantly, just the fact that I now have experience facing this would make it less of a problem in the future, but that aside I think there was definite strength to it.
I’ve seen the stance that you don’t want groups of 8 queueing and stomping pubs of randoms, but I haven’t seen the idea of matching same sized groups suggested.
If I queue with one other friend, then penalize me and make me wait for a more specific match against someone else who queued with one other person. If 5 people queue together then force them into a match where 5 others queued together and fill the rest of the team with same sized groups (or individuals).
This would prevent pub teams from getting stomped by these groups coming in together as groups will only play against groups. This also alleviates the requirement of getting a team of 5 and working on competitive strategies from us more casual PvPers just in order to play together.
Honestly, in the previous MMO I played you’d regularly face premade groups in your pickup matches and it was infinitely more fun and balanced than things are in this game as of this writing. Hopefully that can be corrected through a variety of tweaks, because there definitely is incredible potential.