I hope this isn’t a bug, ‘cause it didn’t make much sense for them to instantly attack a stealthed player when he came out of stealth, before the mesmer even realized where the stealthed player was to begin with either.
None of the tooltips suggest that illusions come outfitted with the most advanced satellites and tracking devices of any sort.
Most glass cannon builds operate in a way that actually supports the OP’s argument. Glass cannons try to apply their burst and if they fail, they often have to fall back to survive. Now granted, there is skill involved in knowing when and how to escape, though at the same time, it’s difficult to argue that this style is harder to play. It’s an all-in approach that doesn’t even try to deal with a sticky situation.
There is a reason why glass cannons prefer entering fights that outnumber their opponents and that is to minimize the risk while putting their increased damage to best use. This is definitely smart and a good way to take advantage of your strengths, but once again not exactly difficult or challenging gameplay, yet the most effective.
In even fights many glass cannons just sit on the edge of a fight and apply ranged pressure, which is the safest approach there is.
Ignoring condition builds in this discussion, as they are somewhat different in regards to their stat distribution, it is probably just as demanding and difficult to kill stuff with a balanced power build than it is for a glass cannon to survive and perhaps even more so considering, as noted above, that glass cannons are most effective when they outnumber their opponents.
If on the other hand people believe it is easier to kill players with a balanced power build, because you are not as susceptible to burst or because it is more forgiving, then you kinda have to wonder why so many still choose to run a berzerker’s amulet albeit being inferior.
Back in beta if the target was stealthed after you started the finishing move, the stomp would go through. Obviously they decided the current mechanic was the better one to use.
So how would you rate these classes today, I am curious.
The reason the signet change is not going in is because it isn’t bugged and more than likely the improvements for the active have not been finalized yet.
Deceptive Evasion as a trait is actually too strong without an ICD. Whether the mesmer is viable or not is up for debate and not really an argument, but the trait itself makes way too much of a difference and is too good compared to other options for most mesmer builds out there, not just clone on death.
This has usually been a good reason for designers to intervene and change it. A trait that adds so much to a class and is above all others not only in the trait line it rests in but all other trait lines as well for 20 points, I am genuinely surprised it hasn’t been changed since release.
(edited by Slim.3024)
Just nerf Deceptive Evasion and put a 10 second internal cool down on the trait. Multi-purpose dodge rolls need restrictions and it needs to be the same for everyone.
@Sigil stacking – I guess we didn’t make it clear enough on stream – many of the sigils will be rebalanced to compensate for the ability to stack two of the same type.
I really wish you had lowered the crit damage potential for pvp as well. That would have been the greatest change since release for the same reason you did so in the other areas. Whenever I see a 100%+ difference in my damage simply because I crit, I realize how big of a difference in pressure that makes and how single crits can turn fights due to that.
The difference between a crit and a non-crit on big attacks is up to 4k and higher for the strongest skills and the main reason why dps classes will never use anything but berserker.
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In my opinion a crit damage nerf would be the best thing that happened to this game since release. Of course I would cut down on the duration of several conditions at the same time.
Is this change going to happen for all areas or is it just a PvE/WvW change? Does anybody know?
You’re statistically illiterate. If I asked you to choose between two ice cream flavors and determine which is better, and then I told you that your options were chocolate and chocolate, I wouldn’t conclude at the end of my study that chocolate is better than vanilla. Or, if I went into some ultra-conservative part of the US- say, Texas- I wouldn’t conclude that the vast majority of Americans are Republicans. Those are just two examples of ways in which a researcher can influence his/her results, and, similarly, Azuze has chosen to bias the results of his poll as well, and thus it is just as unreliable.
Are you seriously trying to say that the different degrees of bias you are comparing are irrelevant and that any form of bias automatically destroys any statistics?
63% have voted for Lyssa and you are trying to attribute this to the somewhat biased representation of choices.
I get that you are bored and like to argue on the forums, but not everything can or has to be twisted. Sometimes you’ll just look stupid and it’s best to move on.
Of course the poll constitutes evidence. It might not be proof, but it certainly is evidence.
For god’s sake don’t post it on forums otherwise we’ll be even more collapsed by braindead wars facerolling around since we all know that anet won’t fix something in less than 3 months…
Exactly what i was thinking. Im thinking of streaming some footage or asking someone to stream it for me (my pc isnt the best).
Close?
I imagine double settlers with 25 stacks of life in sPvP?
Going by the stats provided, he’s running something close to this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAT8cjkOVwpQGP4wBE0DNsK2iThkI9IMGw1A-TgAg2CrIaS1krJTTymsNB
Fast Hands is huge for adrenaline generation and there’s no way that you can get full adrenaline on CD with that build. That’s just wishful thinking, because you rely entirely on hitting and getting hit to produce adrenaline.
In a build without Burst Mastery or Fast Hands, you’ll be looking at 25-30 seconds on average to replenish 3 bars, so once you have applied your first Combustive Shot, you’ll be spamming bursts with 1 bar of adrenaline mostly, which means your condition removal capabilities and your adrenal health trait will be performing poorly.
Sword autoattacks are very powerful, however they also require you to stick to your target to build up bleed stacks before they fall off or get cleansed. It’s not as easy as it sounds.
The healing from banner is all the support you give and is negligeable when assaulting a node quickly. Guards nowadays move in to nodes to support their team mates with more than just healing (might stacks, area denial CC, heals, stability etc.). That’s something this warrior build can not.
It’s not a bad build, though calling it overpowered, because it can kill in 1v1s is false. You’re a meat shield that is best used to stall enemies on a node and becomes useless the second the node gets neuted. It has no decapping potential, so you are forced to roam to free nodes and set up shop there basically.
A build like that would have to run without Fast Hands at the very least and all of your damage is basically tied to two skills on 15 and 25 seconds cool down.
You’d have a huge problem building adrenaline and you’d offer no support when assaulting a node unlike a guardian.
Had to comment on this…
Mesmers? Ether Feast True
Elementalist? Ether Renewal Signet is used fairly often, and Glyph is a good option to avoid the ridiculous vulnerability of ER
Engineers? Healing Turret Not true- some HGH/elixir builds run Elixir H
Ranger? Healing Spring While this tends to be true a lot of the time, all of the heals have their own uses in different builds- none are necessarily bad.
Guardian? Shelter Mostly true, though guards have another 163835284 sources of healing anyways
Necromancer? Consume Conditions Not necessarily true of MMs
Thief? Withdraw if S/D, Hide In Shadows if D/P Withdraw is used even in many stealth builds, though HiS is generally reserved for D/X, true. But you have to consider that our two other heals are absolutely godawful, except in a few highly specialized builds.
So you’re basically agreeing with me.
There are rifle warrior builds who use Surge as well, but as it stands pretty much all professions have a prevalent heal they use in their builds and not just by a small margin either.
My point was that every profession should have to make at least two decisions about his heal skill—“when should I use my heal skill?” and “which heal skill should I use?” Warriors currently can’t make either decision, because nothing is better than taking HS and not using it, period. That removes an important part of the game from warriors and also makes the game more passive/frustrating for other players.
Let’s be real here and answer me how many different heal skills do you see on other classes? Most classes use the same heal regardless of their build with very few exceptions.
Mesmers? Ether Feast
Elementalist? Ether Renewal
Engineers? Healing Turret
Ranger? Healing Spring
Guardian? Shelter
Necromancer? Consume Conditions
Thief? Withdraw if S/D, Hide In Shadows if D/P
That’s true for 90% of all professions and anytime somebody uses a different heal it’s a huge exception and first thing that catches the eye. Do we want to nerf all the above heals as well, because they are used almost exclusively?
As for when to use your healing skill, that’s another one of those things people get so hung up on. Truth is, unless you are playing a build that has access to a secondary form of healing, you will always use your heal when you drop below a certain threshold that guarantees no overheal, delaying the heal for any other reason than poison on you means playing inefficiently.
This is not always true for bunkers, as those builds usually have other means to heal themselves and thus do not rely entirely on their heal to regain health.
Healing Signet is absolutely fine for a class like the warrior. Current meta builds for the warrior class do not allow them to disengage at will, nor are they much of a threat at distance with their tickling longbow auto.
(edited by Slim.3024)
Wow, you guys…are you seriously arguing about something this obvious? Stop making me sad.
Acandis the genius wrote:
Decrease the scale with power, not the base damage.
How could you ever decrease the base damage of the scepter’s auto attack, good sir? There’s no base damage. You are only dealing whatever damage you are on your side based on how much power you have and your weapon damage.
The 10% nerf to PW, which was a 15% nerf by the way, was a direct nerf of the stat contribution for power in regards to damage of exactly 15%. Whatever coefficient (x points of power = y damage) was in place before the nerf, was nerfed by 15%).
Decrease the scale with power, not the base damage.
99% of damage skills in GW2 have no base damage, it’s all based on scaling and stat contribution.
As Acandis said, everything that deals damage in this game has a base damage point. Everything else is a modifier.
That is incorrect. Almost everything in this game, when it comes to damage skills, is based solely on modifiers. There is no base damage in the damage formula, unlike other games.
Decrease the scale with power, not the base damage.
99% of damage skills in GW2 have no base damage, it’s all based on scaling and stat contribution.
Each damaging skill in GW2 has a unique coefficient a.k.a base damage.
Coefficient has nothing to do with base damage. Coefficient is based on stat contribution and returns, which makes the skill scale in a certain way, which is exactly what is being modified when a damage skill is “nerfed” in its damage.
You can’t nerf a skill’s base damage, because there is none. If you had 0 Power, your skill would deal no damage, so making a distinction between nerfing the scaling instead of its base damage is superfluous, as you’d be asking for the same thing.
Decrease the scale with power, not the base damage.
99% of damage skills in GW2 have no base damage, it’s all based on scaling and stat contribution.
They’re not mutually exclusive. Close, if you use the Active on cooldown, before every fight, maybe. Let’s say that the Active was the most healing over time to use – you can usually milk 10+ seconds out of the passive healing before having to use it at the start of the fight. If you were busy ganking someone when your Healing Signet recharged, you can milk the passive healing until you are ready to cast it.
I’ve discussed my preferences for Healing Signet in the past.
The design goes something kind of like this:
Healing Signet Passive: 225 healing every second, with the same 0.05 scaling.
Healing Signet Active: Heals for 625 every second for 10 seconds. 0.10 scaling.Don’t nit pick my numbers, focus more on the design. Heh. Warrior has to keybind his heal, or lose out, and gets comparable sustain to the old design when traited for Signet Use, and successfully spamming Healing Signet on 16s cooldown.
The result is that the Warrior gets some stable healing from the passive until he needs to activate his active. This active can be interrupted, and that means the heal goes on cooldown for 4s, where the Warrior gets nothing. When it recharges, the Warrior will get some passive healing until he can successfully activate it again!
I don’t think that Healing Signet should be gutted, but I think if we can introduce penalties for being interrupted, and actually having to keybind the heal / use it properly, it’ll be a huge step in the right direction that’s not so drastic.
Look at it this way:
The moment you need to activate your active in combat, you will never be able to go back and take advantage of the passive again for the remainder of the fight.
Basically, once you use your active, you are then condemned to using its active on CD, because there’d be no way you can stay in a fight and take so little damage in even only 16 seconds (traited signet CD), that the passive could catch up and surpass the active in terms of HP/s (unless using the active wasn’t worth it in the first place, which means you’d never use it at all).
There’s no point in designing a heal with a passive and an active portion, if the very second you are using the active portion, you are practically commited to using it and completely forgoing the passive.
And I will never understand why people think buffing the active and nerfing the passive will solve anything. If you buff the active to make it good, people will just use the active and the passive becomes useless. Congratulations, you have just created another simple heal.
If you buff the active and it’s not worth casting, you have basically nerfed the passive for no reason, because the active will only ever be used to heal in any near death escape scenario.
Heals like the signet can not have both passive and active solely heal, because the usage of either is mutually exclusive.
If for whatever reason you wanted to “nerf” the passive of the healing signet, which I repeat is absolutely fine and balanced, you need to incentivize using the active by adding a different effect to it that is not just a different way of healing.
Last Stand – stability and swiftness provided are reduced to 8 seconds
To match Balanced Stance. Makes sense.
Another of those funny things. A huge list of changes, apparently meticulously put together and in reality the changes proposed are nothing more than arbitrary and subjective, which becomes apparent by just looking at Last Stand, which already gives 8 second stability and swiftness, yet evidently requires to be changed to the very same 8 seconds it currently gives, in order to be balanced.
I am not saying all the changes in this list are bad (I absolutely agree with some of the changes, though I do not make the mistake to believe that any of them would make the game significantly better), nor has the op done a worse job than so many before him, but realize that simple class balance is not the problem.
The notion that the game is poorly balanced is hurting the game much more than the state of balance itself. If anything needs to be changed, it is the fundamental issues with PvP itself:
- Combat
- Conquest
- Down state
- Damage
- Class Dependency and Synergy
- Instant abilities
- AI
- Dodging and unavoidable attacks
I can’t take anybody seriously who believes a #6 heal has to scale with healing power the way it is suggested.
Pro tip: #6 heals, while having the highest stat contribution, have the lowest scaling in terms of power (due to their high relative base values), because they need to be useful for any type of build to close to the same degree.
Builds that choose to be more tanky, rely on secondary forms of healing that scale with healing power in a much more extreme way, which is why they start with a low base and have a decent stat contribution. This is how guild wars 2 smartly addresses opportunity cost by forcing tanky builds to pick up extra survivability and directly link that secondary source of sustain to the appropriate stats.
Feel free to take a look at your #6 heals from other classes and tell me why you think warriors’ healing signet should be scaling any differently by suggesting outrageous numbers with a scaling of up to 220% of its base value.
The #6 skill is the one skill that all classes and builds universally rely on to survive, which is why healing signet’s scaling has always been fine. Only ignorants thought of it in terms of “regen” and subjected it to the same standards.
yeah guys, playing berserker hambow isnt easy. just look at that f1 longbow skillshot, you really have to be careful to not miss it. and don’t get me started on stances. you really gotta focus to not miss the skillshot of stances. or pin down. also very hard. you really don’t have as much defense except highest base armor and health and healing signet and stances. its really verry hardy to paly. brb gotta take my meds
A berserker warri has like 2300-2400 armor and around 20k HP. It’s not enough to facetank pressure from a coordinated team, you actually need to time your dodge rolls and yes, stances, which have high CDs. Hammer/longbow is fairly static and cannot kite/disengage from the fight so once he starts being focused with the stances on CD, his healing signet turns into his worst enemy because he cannot burst heal with anything to relieve the pressure.
You actually wouldn’t be able to land longbow F1 on anything if this game wasn’t about point-holding because players can simply move away from it. It’s strong for those situations, but nowadays it doesn’t do as much damage as it used to. Also the firefield is small unless used with full adrenaline.
I believe good players have already adjusted to the hambow warriors and can counter them perfectly well. Mostly it’s just casters being dumb, overly aggressive and out of position which gives the warriors an easy day at the office. Also it’s a good idea to have your casters being protected by a warrior of your own. I feel the warrior’s job is more that of a protector/enabler of the real damage dealer instead of the guy who somehow face rolls everybody with super damage output (which imo it doesn’t have at this point).
good players with coordinated teams adjusted alright. they left the game
The same is obviously true for the dinosaurs. The most evolved species to ever inhabit this planet left long ago and since then nobody has ever reached close to the same potential.
I wonder when the nonsense will end claiming that all the good players and teams have left.
The guy is actually correct. Hammer/Longbow warriors are now in a good spot and nowhere close to overpowered, nor are they in any way too weak.
Give it a month or two and you will realize it as well.
It should also be noted that Warriors still pick Soldier’s over Berserker’s, even when they do not trait for Unsuspecting Foe. The reason for that is that Warriors can not afford to run Berserker’s even with Hammer/Longbow.
If you want to run Berserker’s you pretty much have to run a one trick pony build, that focuses on locking the target down via utilities and bursting it fast. This leaves no room for Berserker Stance and any other survival tools and once again makes the Warrior as vulnerable as ever.
and as a sidenode i would fix impale too. apply all torment at once. first to give the enemy a chance to cleanse and second to have a reason to use the second function of the skill.
Problem with Rip is that it is directly linked to Impale. You can only ever Rip the target with Impale on, which makes the skill very lackluster even if your power isn’t really that bad.
Other than that, completely agree with your assertion, that Cleansing Ire is too good to be a Master trait. Back when the adrenalin part was an Adept trait it was already way over-budget, though almost nobody was traiting it. When they integrated it into the new trait called Cleansing Ire, it became phenomenal and should at least become a Grandmaster trait.
That’s all the changes warriors currently need, though I have the feeling that this, while balanced, would also already kick them out of the meta, because the warrior really has no important bag of tricks. Warriors are too simplistic and straight forward and it is easy to take advantage of it, which is why we have been seeing Hammer/Longbows emerge.
Hammers lock enemies down, giving them room to breath and use their sluggish skills, while Combustive Shot is simply a fire and forget ability, that allows the warrior to apply pressure even when they can not close in on their foes.
(edited by Slim.3024)
Not only do you have to DC to get a dishonor, you also have to not log back in during the match.
If you DC and get back in, before the match ends, you won’t get any. So how unlucky has one to be to get 3 DCs right near the end within a day?
Symkitten is funny.
Too few good answers on the OP.
With feedback like that, Balance will never be achieved, because A-Net is actually listening to trash-talk.
Yeah and we are going to go far with feedback from self-proclaimed professionals which is riddled with ignorance.
How many times do you get hit by shatters? How many dodges do you have for phantasm attacks and the bleeds from illusions in general?
If more people actually learned how the game works, there’d be much less whining about balance and much less focus on what this game actually lacks to become satisfying for PvPers.
The most threatening damage in gw2 comes from sources that are hardest to avoid, rather than the big sledgehammer attacks, which is why we have such a mess with AI, procs and conditions in general. When you realize that, you will have made progress.
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good mesmer > good warrior
24/7.
Kite=win.
master your skills. stop whine.
You know. As a warrior you need to do pressure 24/7 you need to train target – that means you can’t do clever dodges on skillshots. You are forced to eat them with your stances. Stances down – you are food. You recive all aoe dmg on node, all retel dmg, all cc’s everything. You can’t make reliable kite dmg like other have. If some1 bursted you and you are forced to kite you are not doing dmg like others.
In first post we see that warrior is GOOD at a lot of stuff, but not best in anything.
warrior = pork – good meat but if you want stake you take beef.
And warrior never good in duels. Because of telegraphic animation. Dmg him he pop stances. Run away/dodge/kite whatever. Finish him. Ez.
The only kitten that need nerf is long term conditions. Longbow 5 and offsword impale skill. Reduce cd and reduce duration.
I eventualy fought a warrior he hit me twice. 1 pindown and 1 with his offhand skill. I finished him but i still had kittening 20 secs of conditions on me that put me downstate ;O
This guy has it right and actually shows a lot of experience in what he says.
@Menno One of the main issues with running banners in PvP is how hard they are to use. They take a lot of time to pick up, and the actives don’t really compensate for this enough. They also don’t follow you around. But all of that is moot if you’re a mid bunker. The banner gives about 300 health per second to your team, 1700 max health, and 170 toughness. It’s like a mini Spirit of Nature without the rez, but it only takes up a utility spot.
Not to nitpick, but regen with a soldier will be 168ish, rather than 300 with your build.
Unless you were talking Cleric’s.
Longbow has always had the potential to be OP, in the past war did not have the sustain to gain the best from it and also combustive shot was on a 20 secs CD ( for a reason).
Combustive Shot never had a 20s CD, it’s a burst skill, they always had 10s base CD.
Yes, damage is too high, yet here we are in a thread that you created with 90% of the points being solely focused on how the warrior’s survivability is too high.
Warrior’s damage potential was significantly nerfed last patch, so what is the problem?
How is that any different from using the same abilities on another class to bridge your heals? A dodge, invul, block…they are all used to prevent damage and to survive that much longer to get your heal back up.
Perhaps if you considered what each of the skills do individually, and then look at that in the context of what Distortion does, you’ll see that this comparison is a mere exaggeration of the power of a single skill when a skill like Endure Pain alone does the same thing with the addition of a stunbreak.
How does Endure Pain do the same thing as Distortion, when Endure Pain is a 100% power damage reduction, whereas Distortion is an invulnerability?
…Adding redundant details does not make your argument any more accurate.
I am pretty much convinced you believe Endure Pain is some kind of damage immunity to any source of damage at this point. There is no other explanation, else you wouldn’t call stability and a 100% condition duration reduction redundant.
(edited by Slim.3024)
Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.
But continuing…
No need to continue, as you were dead wrong and are trying to distract from it. For that all you need to read is the last sentence of what you quoted and by doing so you might realize that this was stated in the context of condition, CC and power attack application, rather than lingering conditions already on the mesmer:
This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.
There you go. No more, no less.
Also, I just checked out distortion in-game, and, as expected, it doesn’t go through condi damage; any condis on me during Distortion continued to do damage, although I’m not quite so sure about the fear shenanigans you mentioned.
No invul has stopped condition damage until the introduction of the new heals, neither will Berserker Stance. How can you not know this?
As for Illusionary Invigoration… don’t know that I’ve ever seen a build that used the trait. Undoubtedly, there are more effective ways to survive at <50% health (if nothing else, with Desperate Decoy) that don’t require you to sacrifice all of your clones, which tend to be your main offensive and defensive tools anyways (which, by the way, is another reason why Distortion isn’t as great as you make it out to be- you sacrifice damage output in the form of phantasms, dying illusions, and illusion crits for a few seconds of invuln). Taking IllVig also keeps you from taking some other very good options which tend to be preferable.
You don’t seem to be too familiar with the Mesmer. Having all of your shatter skills up and ready on a 60s ICD is quite powerful. It’s between Elasticity and Invigoration now and even in a GS/Staff setup both are pretty much equal when considering how much Mesmers complain about S/D thieves. Any other weapon setup and, Invigoration is the only choice.
I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guysIn which universe are your responses objective, my friend?
You pretty much call posts like “I agree with the op just ’cause I can” some “nice feedback” and ignore anything else and actually try to belittle it with condescending remarks.
he is the op kitten
I am aware of that, though I have difficulty understanding what you are trying to convey. I assume you agree with him, which makes your post nice feedback again, yet you don’t even comprehend quotation marks and what they are used for.
I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys
In which universe are your responses objective, my friend?
You pretty much call posts like “I agree with the op just ’cause I can” some “nice feedback” and ignore anything else and actually try to belittle it with condescending remarks.
Um… What? BF roots you, just get out of the way, honestly. The once the animation ends, the mesmer has a small period of time where he/she is still rooted in place, and you can take advantage of that.
So you disagree that a 2.5s evade on a 10s CD qualifies as high reward for almost no risk, because it roots you in place and you can get hit after it ended on top of it dealing a good amount of damage?
As for Distortion… Last time I checked, it doesn’t give condi immunity
It’s usually a bad idea to rely on wiki when you are trying to make an argument. Distortion grants invulnerability, it’s not an evade. Way back when Blurred Frenzy would give distortion and also make you invulnerable, which later on was first changed from “distortion” to “blur”, which still granted invulnerability and subsequently was changed from an invulnerability to an evade, thus the confusion and mess you see on wiki.
As a side node, distortion even saves you from terror damage ticks, if you activate it while being feared.
, and I’m pretty sure that you can’t get 8s of it in one go, either (even with Illusionary Persona).
Illusionary Invigoration. Look it up on wiki!
I’m sorry but if a mesmer killed you with phantasms then he sucks because he cant land shatters, and YOU suck harder for beeing hit by phantasms till dead against a shatter mesmer. You got two chances to see phantasm skills coming, the animation casted and the phantasm animation itself. A well landed 3 clones + player body shatter can hit for 8k+ damage. That is hardly “a very small portion”.
If you were half as smart as you think, you’d know what I am saying is the truth.
8k is two phantasm hits in a shatter build, which occur roughly every 4 seconds and not only that, but it doesn’t matter whether I see the mesmer’s animation when he summons the first berserker, because it can not be dodged. You can dodge the cast all you like, the phantasm will still appear and the only way to stop that from happening would be a blind, which you will be out of range for.
you cant compare mesmer to warrior..please read the op post again
mesmer lacks sustain, mobility, condition removal etc etc so you cant compare mesmer to warrior
I read the op and strongly disagree with mesmer lacking sustain, mobility or condition removal.
Anyway, I am not going to make you admit you’re wrong in any case, but I will put up the same list for the mesmer, as you did for the warrior and see if we can fit it all in one build:
Mesmer:
Condition immunity on one click – check – In fact, the mesmer has a number of options with shorter duration and shorter cool down
Damage immunity on one click – check – Multiple options yet again, this time the mesmer has more access with a way higher uptime on power damage immunity than even a warrior with defy pain on top of endure pain
Nice amount of hp – check – Meaningless point. Higher base HP comes as a trade off. Mesmers have medium amount of HP
Sustain in a teamfight – check – Another strange point. What does that even mean. Either way, mesmer has one of the best heals in the game, range option, defensive tools on their weapons and utilities to get them out of a bad situation be it through stealth or teleports
Possibility to CC enemies – check – Very much check. In fact the mesmer has a possibility to not only CC the enemies but kill them by interrupting them with their CC and at the same time remove boons like stability that actually prevent CCs in the first place
Mobility (25% movement speed increase) – check (might not be the best but still) – Yeah, definitely not the best. I don’t see mesmers running traveler runes either. Mesmer’s roaming around the map is among the best with all the blinks and the stealth and definitely superior to a meta hambow build of the warrior
Condition cleanse – check – Hell yeah. The amount of condi cleanse a mesmer can have currently is unrivaled. Understandably some of it is overkill, but a single 10 point investment over the meta build and the use of a utility will give the mesmer a potential 6 condition cleanses every 23ish seconds, with up to 12 condi cleanses back to back with an interval of ~3 seconds
Stability – check – check, but not really needed. Even when the mesmer is required to stomp, he has the tools to stomp every single class. No other class can stomp all classes on their first try.
Good in duels – check – check, beats the warrior and is way superior in taking out bunkers than the warrior due to boon removal and a lot of passive damage sources that can be avoided way less frequently than simple sets of attacks
Good in teamfights – check – check, not only does the mesmer offer damage, AoE and single and also control, it also offers team support with condi cleansing, stomp denial through stealth and stomp securing through boon removal + control
Condition pressure – check (Longbow burning, bleeding) – not so much in terms of damage. Mesmers in the current build or variations of it tend to deal limited amount of condi damage, but they do add a huge number of random passive conditions that are annoying. Ranging from blinds to immobilizes, confusion, cripple and what not
Looks quite good to me.
I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.
really? hows that
please explain it a little bitWith mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples
yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.
I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering
I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.
Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.
ofc they deal damage but they are not the main damage source
They are, it’s just not showing well in the death breakdown, if you aren’t looking for it.
I also edited my post to add some comparison with your class in terms of risk vs. reward just to show you that listing a bunch of abilities of a class and for whatever reason claiming they are completely overpowered without even comparing them to what else is out there, seems strange and makes this thread look more like a whine than anything.
(edited by Slim.3024)
I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.
really? hows that
please explain it a little bitWith mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples
yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.
I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering
I don’t know where the notion comes from that phantasms deal no damage in shatter builds. Reality is that phantasm damage is always the top damage entry on your death breakdown against even a shatter mesmer.
Apparently most mesmers don’t realize that though. Mesmer is the one class that deals so much damage out of nowhere as no other and the shatter itself is just a very small portion of the total.
As far as phantasms dying, yeah, they absolutely can in certain team scenarios. But if they hit even once, they are already easily dealing more damage than whatever weapon skill another class would use for that cool down.
Blurred Frenzy – super high reward for almost no risk. 2.5s evade on a 10s CD
Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.
How is that for risk vs. reward?
(edited by Slim.3024)
1) Don’t display player names.
2) Prevent games from starting as anything but 5v5/limit.
3) Prevent players under glory rank 20 from queueing for tpvp.
4) Normalize player models to humans.
1. I believe this to be an incredibly good idea
2. I think they are working on this and I wouldn’t be surprised to see a ready check in the first month of the new year
3. There are a ton of smurf accounts around that are below rank 20. Enforcing something like that could be detrimental
4. I am indifferent to this one. I couldn’t care less what my character looks like in terms of aesthetics, but I do believe human to be overall the race with the best and most natural animations.
So if everybody has got to be a human, so be it. Any other race, I would strongly oppose.
Really, the healing signet is fine and the higher healing per second and the fact that it can not be interrupted is obviously a trade off, because having no substantial burst heal means you are more susceptible to burst.
So power burst is a great counter to passive regen and condi classes will have to rely on poison, that’s pretty much the gist of it.
Now everyone seems to think a heal that can not be activated is always a good thing, but in this era of Lyssa runes, you are basically completely giving up the 4th bonus by using the healing signet. Furthermore any trait like Restorative Strength is also not an option when running it.
I’m sure it’s a little more complicated than that. Dodging is a very important mechanic in this game that allows for skillful play. One of the issues I’ve seen is that in a lot of cases, there’s so much you need to dodge because it seems like everything triggers such a negative effect on your character that you’re almost forced to have permanent vigor(energy sigils) just to stay alive.
This is one side of the coin. The other one is that since you can avoid so much, the effects have to be all the more powerful, so that landing just a few can severely impact the opponent, which is why we need to scale down both damage/effects and avoidance.
Extrapolating from that, however, also means admitting that the dodge mechanic is problematic at a basic level. If you change endurance so that you can only avoid an attack every 10 seconds and thus scale the damage down accordingly, then all of a sudden avoiding attacks becomes nothing more than flavor, because each individual attack would only do a fraction of the total damage needed to kill somebody.
In order to combat that we then would have to redesign skills to have their very own specific effect ranging from #1 to the #5 skill in terms of effectiveness and without any abilities crossing over by applying multiple effects, let alone procs that deal the same amount of damage regardless of the attack they trigger from.
That would make it possible to keep your dodges for very specific attacks only, which are so terrifying that you would want to dodge them.
And once you are done digesting all this and the thought at what is involved in terms of bringing such a change to the game, you then expand on that thought and imagine how all this has to be done for every single class, build and weapon-set in the exact same way and still keep them diverse.
It’s definitely no simple task.