What’s holding S/P back is the .75s wind up for the stun. This is the only skill that has a shorter CC than its cast time in the whole game.
If the cast time was .25 seconds, S/P would be competitive instantly.
The thing is this, and Asrat has been trying to make this point I believe, that the only way a thief can have an impact in the way we are meant to be played is if the enemy actually makes the mistake to dedicate resources to you.
Unfortunately once you realize that the thief is less impactful decapping and +1ing than an extra player in the team fight will be, the thief loses it’s legitimation.
The only way to make thief matter is to break out of the preconception of only decapping and +1ing fights and to actually participate in team fights like you would with another class. In order to do so, you need to be willing to accept that people will blame you for any lost fights, because they expect you to dodge fights altogether. Alternatively you need to be able to read the fights much better than everybody else and actually outperform the enemy.
I have 3 thief accounts on legendary on EU, 2 of which are accounts without HoT and I believe and subscribe to the latter mentality. I will be going for team fights and win them, which is the only way to carry matches. If I need to do it with a thief, so be it, it definitely beats playing my own mini-game of decapping and 2v1ing poor souls (as if only thieves could 2v1) and being almost inconsequential to the outcome of the match.
Disclaimer: I am not claiming that I have carried all of my matches to legendary on all 3 accounts. I have done my share of carrying and fully realize that you need team mates that allow you to win matches and matchmaking is out of your hands.
(edited by Slim.3024)
So if you want to win matches in ESL, all you need is somebody outside of your team DDoSing the opponents, because even if they can figure out it was an attack, it is going to be hard to connect that person to your team.
I am surprised you guys forego Trickery completely. I’d pick Trickery over Daredevil even for a condition build.
-The main damage skill on a condi thief is damage+evade. its spammable
Death Blossom is not a reliable evade and it has a long aftercast attached to it, which is punished by anyone who encounters the build the second time.
- A d/d thief has possibly the best condi removal in the game. YOu remove condition on literally everything you do.
I assume you do not know the game as well you might think, because not only is this incredible condition removal tied to an active evade, which means that you are helpless while CC’ed or if the opponent keeps you from getting those evades, whereas other classes have passive condition removal and/or multiple instant cures, but you also do not have the ability to cure more than 1 condition every 2 seconds roughly, as the trait has an internal cooldown
The only reason why nobody complains about thief is the lack of damage on our conditions. They dont really hurt you, unless you are a warrior, rev, bad necro, mesmer.
Heh, you have the same bleeds, poison and torment as everybody else. The reason the build deals no damage is the very same I stated: It does not have access to more than these 2-3 conditions, whereas other classes have 5-6 readily available to them and the thief’s application is much easier to avoid being mostly melee based.
Because Inspiration Mercenary is the only low(er) skill floor variant of this Mesmer build, and it’s not actually that good, or at least appears to be worse at high levels to more offensive variants.
That can’t be said for just about every other class in the game. Condition Mesmer is actually not in a bad spot.
And it is your right to be of that opinion. I disagree and think it is way too forgiving and effective without even considering how it is played. Now, the fact that there are even worse offenders in the meta in regards to these aspects is secondary to me.
I am not saying “Stop fixing the scrapper [insert any other class/build that is even more broken here] to nerf the mesmer!”, nor should I be able or want to, because in my mind the developers should work and do both at the same time.
Mesmer is the only viable class left that isn’t brain dead to play
And they want to nerf it
K
That build is not brain dead? Compared to what other build exactly?
Yet noone is complaining about evade spamming condi thieves that literally takes 1 button to play 90% of the time?
Just curious tho.
Mesmer’s condi pressure is quite a bit higher due to the fact that you have a wide array of different conditions at your disposal. Thief has access to 2-3 different damaging conditions, which are also much easier to avoid (melee range mostly).
Then there’s the whole survivability side of things. A condition mesmer is virtually unkillable and can apply pressure while taking/absorbing hits. The thief can either deal damage or “evade”, but never both in the same fashion as the mesmer. The thief will die in 3-4 hits as well, has no defenses against area CC and weak condition removal comparatively.
wonder when they hit revenants with a big nerf bat
Scrapper should have been the first profession to nerf actually, yet it seems like they do not agree with me on that.
Unfortunately, as much as I dislike it, Dash is simply mandatory.
Bound fits my playstyle perfectly and I love the whole functionality of it (the damage is great pressure, but not even its main selling point), however, I have died from a single chill, because my heal and my agility signet were on cooldown and I had to watch that stupid condition taking away 10k health without me being able to do anything about it after I had killed the necro.
That’s when I decided that on top of the nice speed boost, I had to run Dash to have a cleanse for the way too long movement inhibiting condition applications in game.
It’s simple…Deathly Chill should have lost either the movement impairing or the ability recharge portion of the condition. It shouldn’t get to take an already ridiculously strong condition AND add damage to it. Even if they nerfed it by 15%. It’s still an over budget ability.
So nerfing a condition for everyone because one class and one elite spec has a trait that makes I cause damage?
You are the second guy who can’t read. He said Deathly Chill should have lost part of its condition meaning that a Necro who decided to pick up the trait would have its chill only deal damage in trade.
Chill in itself without the trait would do what it has always done.
I don’t believe in words, I believe in facts. If the investment is worth it and the RoI is as good as they claim, then Anet will increase their investment at every opportunity to increase their profits.
If on the other hand the prize pool (marketing investment) is not getting a steady increase or even decrease, we know it can’t be as good as we keep hearing.
I don’t know why people post random values for damage, when you can just discuss tooltip damage and avoid all the hyperbolic variables.
Pulmonary Impact deals roughly the same damage as a backstab with the exception that it can not ever crit.
That is all the facts you need and now you can discuss whether this is fine for an ability that is linked to interrupts (meaning that it can be negated completely by stability outside of a fully traited steal and requires anywhere between 4-6 initiative or a utility CD on top of timing to apply).
My personal opinion is that the damage is fine, but I would change PI to a condition. Give players the ability to cleanse the damage before it goes off (PI will detonate after 2 seconds). This would add counterplay.
(edited by Slim.3024)
For those of you that don’t know about the quickness nerf mentioned above, a very long time ago quickness used to have double it’s current effectiveness. Warriors played a build completley built around this using the frenzy utility which made them take double damage but gave them quickness for a few seconds (Can you imagine that the game has powercreeped so hard that quickness for 6ish s while you take DOUBLE DAMAGE as punishment used to be a high tier utility?) and thieves used quickness in exchange for losing their endurance.
Anet nerfed the quickness without even touching those skills, wars still took double damage but now they had half the quickness effectiveness.
I guess it’s worse in this case since they butchered an entire traitline but yeh."
There’s a huge problem with these so-called pros talking about balance: Selective memory.
Just like todays’ buffs and nerfs are commented on in a completely hyperbolic way, the same people commenting and the community will forget the details of the changes and only remember their outrageous claims.
Frenzy for instance was an extra 50% damage damage taken (instead of 100%), lasted 4 seconds (instead of 6) and when they nerfed it and all other quickness sources simply because people would proc it and AA others to death before they could even react (on top of animation tells being meaningless under its effect), they halved their effect from 100% to 50% but not without increasing the duration of it. So quickness effects that lasted for 4 seconds were increased to 6 and so on, in order to balance the damage output out over time.
TLDR: Most changes are not as impactful as many like to claim on patch day. The claims persist throughout the years, right or wrong and usually the real impactful changes are forgotten, as they are discovered after a few weeks and months.
(edited by Slim.3024)
You plebs don’t realize how stupid you are. Healing turrets synergy with the inventions trait line is what makes a scrapers op.
Also the DMG is fine…..after all their wearing marauders amulet:/The fact that you use the word plebs makes me not take take anything you write seriously.
The fact that he doesn’t understand how damage coefficients are completely unrelated to what amulet they are using is what makes me not take him seriously. It also makes me wonder how many people do not understand basic concepts in general.
Thief isnt undertuned, its just that this meta isnt favorable for them, but as you said, if you know how to play it its totally viable
This was the bulk of my observations.
Hey do not get me wrong, I feel bad for thieves bec they have been stuck for 1 role in 3 years.
More Build diversity will help thieves a lot. Maybe they will be wanted for other roles they could fill.
It’s the meta, and it’s bad players.
The real answer to your question is simple and most people may know the answer and yet they do not actively realize it:
As long as you are mechanically good and understand conquest (and there will be the same amount of good thieves as with any other class), you will have great matches as a thief and then you will have matches where you feel you can’t have an impact on the match no matter what.
The reason for this is that thieves, like no other class, benefit from a snowball effect. If the thief’s team has the upper hand in terms of map control, allowing them to pick their fights or even better intercept single players in superior numbers on roads, they will not have to worry about their shortcomings (Crowd Control, AoE and Area Denial effects in general), because the enemy is forced to play defensively. As a result the thief’s combat uptime skyrockets often leading to the impression that the thief is everywhere at once (due to its mobility).
God forbid, however, the situation is reversed. A thief on the defensive who can not choose a fight that is already tilted in his team’s favor, will have some of the lowest combat uptime, giving the impression that the thief is always in the most wrong spot at the wrong time.
The better the player the more often the thief player will find himself in forementioned situations that are more suited to him. However, be aware that team composition and your team mates’ level of competence is much more relevant in determining which scenario you will find yourself in ultimately.
TLDR: The thief profession shines like no other class when you are already winning and suffers more than any other when your team is with its back against the wall. Depending on your team and their classes’ ability to pave the way for you, you will be more or less successful in the end. It’s up to the thief and his competence to take advantage of this, however and that is why some will perform better than others.
(edited by Slim.3024)
I’ll stand by it, thief needs a viable way to replenish its health other than their heal, because not only is the TTK on a thief lower, which allows for fewer heals to be cast throughout a fight, thief is also one of the if not the only class without supplemental healing outside of stealth.
The longer fights drag out, the smaller a thief’s chance of winning, that’s no coincidence. Mobility and dodges are great evasion tools, but in order to actually be viable tools for prolonged fights, they are not suitable, because TTK is too low to repeatedly take advantage of them.
Daredevil is meant to be a specialization that allows thieves to trade punches even vs. multiple foes, but it’s still not given the practical tools to do so, because even weakness as powerful as it can be, can also happen to not trigger at all for kittens, which is all it takes to down the thief.
Aloh,
- Bounding Dodger: In addition to granting access to the Bound dodge ability, the thief will gain 10% bonus physical damage for 4 seconds after dodging.
- Lotus Training: In addition to granting access to the Impaling Lotus dodge ability, the thief will gain 10% bonus condition damage for 4 seconds after dodging.
- Unhindered combatant: In addition to granting the Dash dodge ability, the thief will gain 10% damage reduction against physical and condition damage.
We like the interaction that Evasive Empowerment had with your endurance bar and wanted to carry it further, but didn’t feel like it could have the desired impact in the adept tier. Thus, each of the grandmaster traits have their own version, geared toward their specific style of play.
Havoc Master has taken its place, as we felt that the line could use a more guaranteed damage increase. For trait mods, we’d like to experiment with Weakening Strikes slightly, adding a secondary to it within its role of debilitation. Options we’re looking at it:
- Inflict X (torment, bleeding, something) when you weaken a foe.
or- Receive less damage from weakened foes.
Once again, thanks for your continued constructive feedback. It’s greatly appreciated.
-Karl
An idea I had for a defensive trait within Daredevil was to have the thief get healed by the attacker based on their current endurance.
This would allow for thieves to stay in fights longer based on how they managed their endurance (the more you dodge around, the less you get healed for and the more precise your dodges, the more you get healed for, because frankly no “balanced” amount of damage reduction is going to offset the fact that thieves have no viable secondary healing whereas other classes can complement their #6 with viable traits since forever.
I opted for this mechanic, because thieves more than other classes tend to dodge not just for damage evasion, but also for positioning. With my mechanic of getting healed for X, Y and Z for every hit that you take at say 20+, 50+ and 80+ Endurance, the thief is not punished for these dodges unlike he would with traits that work on “successful evade”, yet it would be a very active and rewarding balancing act, if you managed your new Endurance bar well.
It would also help the thief against classes that rely on several pets, which is like hell to fight for thieves or in cases where they get jumped on (usually with a full Endurance bar), as thieves lack stability.
Just an idea.
Inb4 everybody thinks this is incredibly OP and they can’t understand how this was ever implemented 3 months from now.
to get this horrendous ‘immobilized’ bug addressed and fixed?
There must be something we can do to make you acknowledge and react to it. I refuse to believe that you knowingly keep a game breaking issue going rampant for months, especially since immobilizes are as wide spread as never before and the durations by itself are beyond acceptable to begin with.
Tell me what to do to get this escalated and addressed. I’ll do it.
Because cast skills + jump gives ground for possible exploits like thief’s infiltrator strike in mid air.
Duh, so wrong. The only reason why this exploit works is exactly because casting while in the air does not work. The return is set a couple tenths of a second after you press sword #2, but due to you being airborne while this occurs (whole point of jumping), the return point is never actually set.
Casting while being airborne should be enabled, because there’s like no consistency in what skills can actually be cast when in the air (e.g. venoms can, signets can not) and it gives way to exploits (e.g. infiltrator’s strike) and bugs (immob while airborne locking out skills including stun breaks and condition cleanses).
There’s also precedent for it being used on a regular basis to get an advantage and it seems to have become an accepted part of the game (e.g. jump dodging).
(edited by Slim.3024)
Air burst + just one arcane deals more damage than backstab with zero counterplay and long range. In fact you can perform this combo (and add a second arcane) while being knocked down or stunned.
We are talking burst that surpasses stealstabs, has no positional requirement and can be performed at any time. If elementalists played fresh air today with 6/0/2/0/6 d/p thieves, they would destroy them.
What you say about being able to disengage better is obviously true. Mesmers and thieves have better tools for leaving a fight. DPS guardian and fresh air s/f elementalists do however have the tools for staying in the fight longer.
You seem to think very highly of Fresh Air Eles, and perhaps it’s true they have a fighting chance in 1v1s against Berserker professions. However, bringing Arcane abilities doesn’t happen anymore in PvP if they are seen (Besides Arcane Shield). The benefit of their guaranteed Air burst is far outweighed by the fact that they get blatently outmanoeuvred by hit and run tactics, and have no choice but to rotate through big cooldowns.
Not sure what qualify as big cooldowns for fresh air. I also don’t see why given an invul and a 3-hit block that deals massive damage would not allow for at least one arcane ability with the last utility slot reserved for lightning flash.
Fresh air is a lot stronger now since the signet buff and the air/fire sigil changes than most people remember. Also the fact that most builds actually do not have high burst damage (mesmers are rare, s/d isn’t s bursty and neither is d/p panic strike builds) helps the build as well.
Yes, the meta exists because of pseudo-power meta.
Thieves have basically infinite gap closers because of Shadowshot(cancel)
Which allows them to blind and stay in stealth while also teleporting the thief for backstabs. BUT SKILLCAP, bind shadowshot next to stow weapon, skillcap.Thief has the best mobility in the game while also being able to 1v1 any zerker class in 14-30 seconds, a good chance at 1v1ing nonzerker classes and the ability to disengage from almost any fight.
So yes, why bother playing mesmer when you can play d/d ele with more mobility, group utility, 1v1, team fight potential.
TBH if thieves didn’t have consume plasma mesmer v thief would be much closer to 50/50 then to 75/25 winrate, and this could potentially put mesmer back into the meta.
BUT before that; Passive play needs to go.
Sigil of Fire
Sigil of Air
Sigil of BattleAnd so do the ridiculous unintended skill behaviors.
Lightning whip cancel, Mesmer gs cancel, Shadow shot Cancel.
I don’t think the d/p build you are suggesting can 1v1 all zerker builds. They will kill a mesmer, ranger and a necro, but lose to elementalist, guardian if players are on the same skill level. Engineers and warriors are a toss up. Sword + dagger builds are a different kind of beast.
As far as cancelling shadow shot to backstab, that is definitely used and not that hard, but especially against mesmers it’s much less feasible, as your projectile is bound to hit an npc.
Fresh air ele only has higher burst if you add in a phoenix (20s CD) + lightning flash (40s CD). Otherwise, a full air burst by itself (as in air attune + lightning bolt) does less damage than a backstab.
Air burst + just one arcane deals more damage than backstab with zero counterplay and long range. In fact you can perform this combo (and add a second arcane) while being knocked down or stunned.
We are talking burst that surpasses stealstabs, has no positional requirement and can be performed at any time. If elementalists played fresh air today with 6/0/2/0/6 d/p thieves, they would destroy them.
What you say about being able to disengage better is obviously true. Mesmers and thieves have better tools for leaving a fight. DPS guardian and fresh air s/f elementalists do however have the tools for staying in the fight longer.
(edited by Slim.3024)
And yes, thief does keep non-Guardian berserkers out of the meta due to their relentless gap closing ability, hard countering builds with an over-reliance on good positioning to protect themselves.
Thieves do have a great amount of gap closing abilities, but if we look at say a fresh air elementalist, they not only have the higher burst, which happens to be completely uncounterable, but they also have range and invulnerabilities.
???
4 Gap closers isn’t sufficient?
Is that what I wrote? Interesting analysis.
And yes, thief does keep non-Guardian berserkers out of the meta due to their relentless gap closing ability, hard countering builds with an over-reliance on good positioning to protect themselves.
Thieves do have a great amount of gap closing abilities, but if we look at say a fresh air elementalist, they not only have the higher burst, which happens to be completely uncounterable, but they also have range and invulnerabilities.
Without points in acrobatics, thieves would be sitting ducks against a fresh air elementalist (blinds are useless against fresh air) and that is probably why thieves have migrated towards totally unpredictable evasion.
So it’s not entirely correct to say that class A keeps class B out of the meta, but rather that A keeps B and B keeps C ankitteneeps A out of the meta, which is why the meta consists of classes that can not be countered by any build to the degree described.
And to be honest, that’s how it should be. Issues with the currently dominating builds only exist because they are on classes that have the versatility to simply be better at x, y and z than the generalist builds of other classes.
TLDR: Specialist builds keep each other out of the meta, so people have migrated to generalist builds in order not to be countered by any specialist build. At the same time, elementalist and engineer (and warrior to a degree, though they are restricted in range) are more versatile than all other classes, thus they have stronger generalist builds by default.
(edited by Slim.3024)
^And yet still the closest to balance we have ever been =D
(btw I’d suggest NOT spamming these posts Rosicky.)
More like LordRickster.
Win/Lose ratio does not account for anything. Not even the best matchmaking and a huge playerbase could make this feasible.
And derailed my work here is done! BTW I’m a necro and I kittening hate engis.
You are also a newly emerged engineer who happens to have won 16 out of his last 17 matches on the class in question. Just to complete the picture.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Is-matchmaking-broken-for-unranked/first#post4679872
…I’ve played 17 games and won 16 of them…
Yeah NeXeD.3042 is my regular acct but it’s been heavily infracted lately so it’s difficult to post on forums with it. I made this acct because I wanted to learn how to play engi and didn’t feel like deleting a character or adding character slots so I just bought the game again =)
(edited by Slim.3024)
The engi`s aren`t OP when you face a premade and 2/3 characters stomp at you.
I have to quote the above line, because it seems like you argue against my idea of adjusting the matchmaking/prediction in case my experiences described in the first post were found to be a constant across the board, based on that allegation.
Regardless of the fact that we have yet to determine whether the class is overperforming and, if it’s overperforming, the class would have to be changed rather than adjusting the system to accomodate for the statistically verified positive outcome when it is present, is there any other class you can think of that you could replace the engineer with in the above statement and which would allow you to deal with the situation described in a more favorable fashion?
In other words, is there any class that when facing a premade or a push of 3 people on it, would have realistic chances of winning? The reason why you aren’t facing a premade as an engineer is ideally the fact that if you yourself are not in a premade, you also do not encounter premades. Along the same lines, it’s usually unlikely for people to rush an engineer with 2-3 people, because both teams only have 5 players each, which renders the whole endeavour more complicated than one would like usually.
No it wouldn’t builds matter. Builds counter builds, not classes. This is what I’m trying to tell you. You yourself said you lose more when playing against teams with more engineers than your team. You are trying to say engis are OP in a sneaky way, it’s kind of smart but I know what your doing. Since your doing it that way the real way to do it would be to find out the builds on all teams not just classes. But that wouldn’t support your engi OP case you don’t like it as much as your original idea. Another thing you could do is separate the win loss of classes into mmr divisions since in lower mmr divisions turret engis are going to absolutely dominate compared to higher mmr divisions where turret engis are fodder, yet celestial engis are more prevalent.
Let’s say that a an extra engineer on your team shows to yield a 90% win rate. How would it matter whether they used a good or bad build? It’s not like opponents magically use worse builds more often.
You simply look at a large sample size and you will catch the good with the bad and the average all at once. If on average the team with an [additional] engineer has a significantly higher chance to win, especially when compared to other classes and way north of the 50% mark, then this has to be accounted for whether that is due to a low tier build overperforming in low tier or a high tier overperforming in a high tier.
What you are trying to do is dilute the formula by throwing in variables that would make it too complicated to accurately gauge and ultimately implement the idea.
When a high MMR player queues for a match, the match will detect this and adjust the matchmaking and prediction accordingly (based on his past performances and his rating, not based on the build he plays). The same would apply for class x, y, z that happens to allow for significantly higher chances of winning by default based on statistics.
Ooooh yes this would be interesting….. almost as interesting as finding sneaky new ways to call engi op on the forums.
Why are you so concerned with what people call OP on the forums, if I may ask?
I’d really like to see how much my experience differs from others’. We are using the new matchmaking system to get even matches and predictions are cast by the same system to allocate points towards the leaderboards, thus my point is very valid. As soon as you can determine a factor that influences the outcome of matches in a significant way, regardless of what it may be, the factor can and should be used to adjust the matchmaking and the predictions.
Now you could argue that adjusting the system to account for a particular class is not the right way to go, because it may or may not change constantly. Though it is better than not accounting for it at all, if it impacts the system considerably.
Everything you said could be legitimate. Or it could just be a sneaky way of saying engis are op. If you were to go as far as looking at the win percentage with engis I would also request looking at the teams the engis faced…. since that comp would matter as well seeing how this game has hard and soft counters…. well I guess you would have to look even more into it…. you would have to go all the way into builds since it’s really the builds that counter each other not the class.
As long as you look at a large sample size, all that should not matter. If having more engineers on your team than the other directly relates to the win rate, then that in itself is a significant fact that has to be accounted for.
What can be done as a follow up is to look at each class in the same way and check if having a superior number of class x, y or z has the same or similar impact on the win rate.
Ooooh yes this would be interesting….. almost as interesting as finding sneaky new ways to call engi op on the forums.
Why are you so concerned with what people call OP on the forums, if I may ask?
I’d really like to see how much my experience differs from others’. We are using the new matchmaking system to get even matches and predictions are cast by the same system to allocate points towards the leaderboards, thus my point is very valid. As soon as you can determine a factor that influences the outcome of matches in a significant way, regardless of what it may be, the factor can and should be used to adjust the matchmaking and the predictions.
Now you could argue that adjusting the system to account for a particular class is not the right way to go, because it may or may not change constantly. Though it is better than not accounting for it at all, if it impacts the system considerably.
care telling us how many times the team with a superior number of engineers will win or lose?
Thanks.
The reason I am asking is very simple. I seem to be having a much smaller chance of winning a match (~10% I’d guess, if my team has no engineer and I am facing a team with 2 engineers). My chances are around 20%, if the enemy has only 1 engineer more than I have on my own team. The same goes for winning, if the engineer/s is/are on my team.
Now if these numbers are consistent across the board and not just something that happens to me out of sheer coincidence, how long would such a result be looked at before actually making it into a variable for match predictions rather than just being statistics with no influence whatsoever?
(edited by Slim.3024)
No. Bugs aren’t prevalent in this game or an issue at high-level play. The real issue is there’s just not enough competition for people to take math seriously and improve themselves at the margins. The reason for that, of course, is the lack of rewards and mode variety.
This is so true that it is sad.
We should nerf steal, so it doesn’t hurt as much anymore when you miss one.
Well, after testing this bug in the mist against golems, I can confirm that Sizer is correct about it.
I am not sure if it was entirely due to my steal missing, but about every 10th time, the golem would just outplay and beat me. Nothing I could really do, it was auto-lose.
(edited by Slim.3024)
I gotta pay the rent and my gems ain’t comin’.
The answer is: kittened.
Nothing else is a valid answer.
This was a tournament…the hypotheses people come up with is astounding. Perhaps necromancer isn’t as bad as people claim (mostly necromancers).
(edited by Slim.3024)
So a team with a necro won the ESL weekly yesterday. I guess the necro got carried.
Most enemy teams had a warrior and a thief too, yet the necro team beat them.
Necro’s damage is in a worse place than pre-dhuumfire, but the rest of the class isn’t.
Remember what necros asked for? Survivability.
They got it and for a while they even had increased damage. Their damage now is not lower than it used to be but pretty much on par and they have better survivability.
Most classes in this game have lost a lot of damage since release and gained extra survivability or utility.
I personally would be pretty ecstatic if they removed dhuumfire and even the fear on spectral wall and gave us back old corrupt boon, old terror, old putrid mark, the bleeds on mark of blood and grasping dead…
Yeah, also old Spectral Armor, Doom, Death Shroud mitigation, Tainted Shackles and so on…oh wait, you just forgot the buffs you got like Mrbig did, who claims necro is worse off than pre-dhuumfire.
You are misinterpreting what I said. I said they don’t scale beyond one opponent, not that they don’t effect more than one opponent. Everyone else has defenses that scale to infinity. Necros do not. Necro defenses do not scale at all in most cases, due to being a flat number reduction (Death Shroud) or having an ICD (Spectral Armor/Walk) or both (Signet of Vampirism). Because of the non-scaling nature of necro defenses, they are not good at all against multiple opponents. It’s ironic that such an AoE heavy class is good at dueling and terrible with multiple opponents. They make the biggest impact in the teamfights where they can’t survive if the enemy has half a brain. Compare that to a Mesmer where their biggest impact is in duels where they are very well set up to survive.
I’d urge to you to be more precise then. You can’t remain vague and expect me to interpret your thoughts.
What survival tools are we talking about for other classes that scale infinitely other than invulnerability and which necro has no access to? Necromancers have access to protection, AoE blinds, teleports. You seem to be thinking that because death shroud somehow doesn’t scale with the amount of damage you take, that the necro is worse off, when others classes do not even have that mechanic.
It would probably take 3 heavy dps (something that as we have seen doesn’t even exist anymore in high-end tournaments) to remove death shroud in 3 seconds, which is as long as an invul for other classes.
Necros have pretty poor access to Protection, and it is always on long cooldowns for just a few seconds and always on utilities. Gaining Protection means the loss of the necessary stunbreaks or boon conversion or our only Blind field (Well of Darkness, which also has a very long cooldown). The primary reason to bring a necro on a team is boon conversion, which locks one utility into Corrupt Boon or Well of Corruption.
Defensive cooldowns usually have “long cooldowns”. That’s why we call them cooldowns. It’s been a long, long time since high damage classes were overpresent in a team comp, yet necromancers seem to complain about not being able to escape the excessive damage. This is an indicator for the issue not being the necro’s survivability, but rather how the necro is focused heavily, as it will obliterate the whole enemy team if it is left alone.
Still doesn’t explain how these warriors can be so much worse than average, when we can read on a daily basis how warriors are faceroll.
So is warrior suddenly the hardest class to master and only when mastered becomes terribly overpowered? Or is the class not overpowered? Or do classes not matter at all really, cause it’s more important as to what class you send to deal with another and people need to shut up about classes being overpowered?
Is it really that hard to understand?
You can make warriors hit twice as hard and have twice as much health……if you let the 5 year old from next door play it, he would still get dominated by top players.
If you match a guy like Casualty with his 2000+ teamq games played, 75% winratio and top 10 spot with guys that have less than 10 games played and a 20-25% winratio you get an unfair matchup….no matter what classes they play.
Sounds like a great argument, except that it’s hyperbolic.
If somebody wants to argue that warrior is easier to master than any other class but still very hard to master like Solstice did, then yeah, I can understand their opinion on the matter. Whether I agree with his assessment or not is irrelevant, it’s a reasonable argument.
If somebody is claiming warriors are op and the only reason how a composition with 3 overpowered warriors like that gets destroyed is that those warriors were 5 year old mental kittens playing against the upcoming korean elite of GW2 espahtz, then I am sorry, you are not making sense.
Let’s be honest here, how many necromancers run with 3 defensive utilities like many other classes?
Not many. Utilities are necessary for damage on necros. Even so, the defensive utilities they do get don’t scale beyond one opponent, which is why the “focus the necro” meta exists. It’s got nothing to do with “threat” and everything to do with “quick 5v4”.
That sounds very ominous. Are you saying that death shround, blind fields, teleports, AoE CC or protection even only affect one opponent? I think you are trying to say the necromancer has no invulnerability. The necromancer is not alone in that though.
I also don’t understand how necromancers can argue they have a hard time surviving, if they aren’t willing to trade damage for utility. A necromancer does not need the damage from their utility to kill people. Usually scepter autoattack and deathshroud skills will take care of that.
Necros simply can not be ignored. It takes just a few skills from range to load enough potential damage onto you that you know you are going to be dead in a few seconds.
And then one skill to completely negate that “potential damage”. It may take multiple skills, but they don’t have to be from the same person. This is a weakness with condition builds in general, not a necro-specific problem.
There are very few single abilities that can deal with the kind of condition overload that we see in this game today. Even those that enable you to do so, have a cooldown that is about 5 times as long as the abilities used to overload them with conditions again.
(edited by Slim.3024)
the flaw is that if skill level and experience aren’t relatively equal then class composition has nothing to do with who wins.
Still doesn’t explain how these warriors can be so much worse than average, when we can read on a daily basis how warriors are faceroll.
So is warrior suddenly the hardest class to master and only when mastered becomes terribly overpowered? Or is the class not overpowered? Or do classes not matter at all really, cause it’s more important as to what class you send to deal with another and people need to shut up about classes being overpowered?
There we have it friends; definite proof that warrior isnt OP.
Proof that warrior isn’t op? No.
Evidence that warrior can be countered by some of the classes on the other team? Definitely.
Proof that the OP and his friends are just terrible to the point that running 3 overpowered classes results in a 0:500? Ridiculous.
It’s odd how people are so quick to dismiss what the OP is trying to say by belittling his capabilities. This by the very same people who also claim that the warrior is easy to play.
Either a class is easy to play or it isn’t. When an overpowered class is easy to play, there’s very little room for underperforming on said class.
Claiming this is no evidence and in fact insisting on saying the class is overpowered and the OP and both other warriors are simply incapable of performing at an average level with an easy to play class, is a logical fallacy.