Guild Wars 2

fuzzout.8652:

You know, looking at everyones posts saying GPUs hitting 99% usage; I can’t stop but to get the feeling that a dev in one of the multi-threading patches has accidentally off-loaded a CPU focused calculation onto the graphics cards work list resulting in this pain-in-the-rear graphics card performance…

Because if you think about it; on-board chips running smooth compared to dedicated (keep in mind that on-board chips are within the CPU itself; this having higher calculating power)… Yeah… I think I’m right for once!

Most peoples GPUs are not being used at all. My 560Ti has been sleeping in GW2 since the beta unless i turn on supersampling.
The 99% usage must be a bug probably related with newer gfx cards and drivers or some other issue only affecting a certain set of cards/etc. Still i havent seen any response to this issue from ANET either.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Just to play Anet’s defender for a moment, I’ll mention 2 reason that may be a factor in ANet accepting these offers of help in optimizing.

1) Lack of resources. If Anet has not allocated resources to work with nVida / AMD to optimize the code, then the refusal would be based on, “we just don’t have the manpower to do this.” I’m not saying the reason is good or that they shouldn’t “find” the resources to do it, but it is a possible reason.

2) I’m guessing the REAL reason is that in order to do this optimization, ANet believes (rightly or wrongly) that they would have to reveal certain tech details of their network encryption and security and are not willing to risk them with a 3rd (or 4th) party. All the NDAs n the world can’t put the single posting of a code hack on the internet back in the bottle.

1. Look at all these people playing a game, we r making a killing. How about fixing the engine? No. Sure it would cost them and they d need the technical expertise but this is no excuse when looking at the profits posted by NC.

2. BS. This aint some scrubby 3rd party dev. Its nvidia and AMD we r talking about not to mention this has nothing to do with network code and encryption but client side graphical performance. Besides the obvious reason ($) there is no other to refuse help from them.

marnick.4305:

1/ I don’t believe this actually came from an nVidia employee. It’s forged, almost certainly. If I sent such an email to a customer, I’d be rightfully fired.

2/ if not forged, it was written by a hater who shouldn’t be working for nVidia anymore. Such a rant is decidedly bad practice and grounds for immediate contract termination. Forward that email to his superiors if you still have the original.

3/ I can’t believe any company would turn down an offer for free help.

4/ the facts clearly show that GW2 has been optimized a lot over the last 10 months, whether you want to believe that or not. Do you even read patch notes, did you play the game? My PC hasn’t been upgraded and yet performance steadily increased over time.

5/ Furthermore, both nVidia and AMD have optimized their drivers a lot for GW2 and it shows, therefor this email contradicts the company itself. It’s forged.

The wording of the email is unprofessional, wrong and references direct competitors while attacking a potential ally. It is an outright forgery, anyone with working experience in customer support knows that.

1,2,5/ I really dont care if this is from nvidia or not, inded it looks unofficial or fake as you said directly citing AMD. Fact is there was a real response 9 months ago and except for the rougher language stated the same thing: CPU bound, not under their control, no further possible optimization with great impact on their end. The only new thing is the refusal of assistance.

3/ Why not? If someone offers to help you but in term you d have to spend more money on something which you presume as being fine would you accept? In any case if assistance was offered or not this is completely up to ANET to fix.

4/ GW2 in the course of the last 12 months (since beta w2) has seen virtually no performance improvements. There was a spike in w3 IIRC when they turned very aggressive polygon culling on but then reverted it back due to graphical artifacts. All in all over a year and maybe a gain in the range of 10%. That is nothing for a game that had bad optimization to begin with.

Here s one of the responses from nvidia from back then: http://i.imgur.com/M4YgV.png

Also a few months back an ANET support employee promised us to deliver more info on this whole performance problem in the general forum. We havent heard a thing since. Instead of fanboys defending them how about the lead engine coder comes up here and finally gives us some real info on what is the problem and what is being done to fix it besides the usual “we are working on it” crap? Also we d like to know why they are not even considering adding an option to reduce effect gfx.

For GW2 you want an i5 3570k or 4670k OCed as far as they go.
i7s are mostly a waste of money for just gaming and AMDs are too power hungry and offer less performance per core. Once the next gen of consoles gets going more cores will be better for most games hopefully bringing AMD back to the race but till then intel is king.

Ruisan.7410:

Was gonna stop responding to this thread since it seems that majority of guys here don’t even want it. But anyway my 450 dollar Toshiba LAPTOP was running on Guild Wars 2 at around 15-20 fps during WVWVW and 30 FPS at all other times on those settings and it was running an amd apu a8 series which clocks at about 1.6 ghz each core (quad core). It seems like you are vastly underestmating what next-gen consoles and developers could do on those systems.

As was i but you missed the point again. Yes the devs can do a lot on those systems but they still cant just magically wave a wand and instantly make something that is gonna run well and provide the same performance. Your CPU actually runs at 2,3 or 2,5GHz with turbo on, the console chip has no such thing from what was revealed.

And did i ever say this port would be a bad things? Do you even read my posts? I said this could potentially be a very good thing even for us on PC as better multi core and just general optimization would do the game good.

Ruisan.7410:

That would be on probably the highest settings… most likely if it ever happens the game would run at 720p/ with GW2 on low/medium settings running at 60fps which is no dealbreaker. Planestide 2 one of the most demanding games on the PC is coming to the PS4 so GW2 really shouldn’t be a problem spec wise.
Anyway yea sure GW2 might never come i’m just saying their is a possibility.

You know nothing of multithreading, the GW2 engine and everything else on this matter. Ps2 scales far better with lower settings than GW2 and even so SOE will also have to do (or already did) a lot of work on their engine for the PS4 unless they drastically lower the quality of the game.
Solutions like “lowering the res” and “putting the settings on medium” wont solve the problem which again (for the blind) is single core dependency. Not to mention all the other differences between the consoles OS and Windows at which point you might as well do it proper – from scratch.

Indeed GW2 isnt even properly optimized for most PCs as it is too demanding on single thread CPU performance.
And as far as the current console gen is concerned – hell no. Ever heard of programming for the Cell CPU? Or trying to fit things into 512MB of memory? Nothing is impossible but the result would be ugly (GW1 level of GFX) and not worth the investment.

Ruisan.7410:

Rewrite their entire engine from scratch??? No like stated by someone else on this thread the Next Gen of consoles are using PC like Hardware so porting it would only require a few modifications to the engine like UI, Controller Support and handling the consoles OS that is it. I bet Anet could pull this off withought even making this game Consolized just by modifying the GW2 UI for the consoles seperately.

Sure… and the game would run at 10 FPS since the main thread would run at 1,6GHz instead of 3+.

After seeing the next get console specs they would probably have to rewrite the entire engine from scratch since it is way too single core dependant. Not that it would be a bad thing, quite the opposite since it could help the PC version as well. However IMO the odds of that happening are close to 0.

fuzzout.8652:

SonicTHI.3217:

GW2 is CPU bound and horribly optimized. Unless you are running at 5GHz you do not need a graphics card above a 460.

The biggest or rather the only noticeable frame rate impacting settings for the CPU are as said shadows (above medium) and reflections.

I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree upon the 5GHz point…. GW2 is indeed CPU bound, but not in a PVE/superlow graphics situation.

In my video I demonstrated this by turning all the settings to Low and leaving shadows alone on Ultra in an area where I’m alone with a few NPCs…. and a goat.

No matter how bad you wish to make any modern day processor look; this issue is not related to hardware. It has to relate to the recent optimization hotfix (thread allocation) where there’s a possibility that ultra shadows have not been threaded correctly.

I say this because I’m more than 95% sure that Cattlefield 3/Frysis 3 runs far better shadows/shading than GW2.

But thank you for your input

P.S. I’d take back the optimization accusation if I were you; my GW2 spreads itself across all 8 cores quite neatly.

I m sorry but you are utterly wrong. Your CPU spreads GW2 over multiple cores so to you (in task manager) it looks like all your cores are being evenly used and in a sense (thermals) they are but one thread is actually only running on one core at a time and there is one thread that your CPU would need 5GHz to actually complete all the instructions in it. It does not so your framerate takes a hit. Only if your CPU would be used 100% you could say the game is properly optimized for it.
Educate yourself better before you call people liars.

There really should be a sticky on the tech page:
The game is heavily CPU bound and unoptimized so having more than 4 cores/threads is pointless. Even 4 are not properly utilized. The game would run best on hypothetical tricore CPU running at 5GHz or more.
GPU does not matter in GW2 in 99% of the cases.

If you want decent performance buy an i5 xxx0k and OC it to 4+GHz. Even so you will not have flat 60 FPS in zerg fights.

Your framerate does look rather bad. On my Q6600 at 3,2GHz i get a few FPS less in that area. LA is horrible FPS wise in any case.

GW2 is CPU bound and horribly optimized. Unless you are running at 5GHz you do not need a graphics card above a 460.

The biggest or rather the only noticeable frame rate impacting settings for the CPU are as said shadows (above medium) and reflections.

ProxyDamage.9826:

This horse has been so viciously beaten it is less than dust at this point.

Technical limitations. The amount of stat tracking the servers would have to do would balloon out of proportion. Not going to happen.

Oh please spare us this apologetic pathetic excuse. Citing technical limitations when you have no clue how stuff works.
This is far easier solved than many other problems that pester GW2. In fact there are numerous solutions to this that have already been suggested several times such as reducing the number of bleed stacks attacks do or reducing their tick rate but upping their damage. Yes there still need to be caps or limitations but this issue definitely can be solved.

Kal Spiro.9745:

It’s really not ANet’s fault that people swarm whenever there’s new content, and unfortunately there really isn’t anything they can do about it. Once things settle down this may relatively subside. Though it’s hard to say since this is effectively a Dragon that shows up randomly and drops two rare or better things every time.

Please spare me this apologetic fanboyish attitude. There is definitely things they can do and should have done. They knew exactly what the reaction of players would be when they announced a “final epic battle”. Not to mention the whole fight is nothing but a zergfest banging on one mob.

Also while we r at it let me add invulnerable enemies and bugged events to the list.

Because this final event is just as bad as the final event or the one in Lions Arch back then.
PVE culling.
Mobs spawning on top of players then one shotting them.
Horrendous graphical and network lag.
Sound bugs.
No credit for completion.
…

At least the rewards were good in november.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Living world absolutely does not mean nothing but content that comes in and leaves again a few weeks later, and though so far that’s primarily what you’ve seen, it’s not all we will do in the future. The intent is living world provides us with a story and narrative experience, sort of like your favorite TV show, to constantly update and change the world and provide unique and exciting rewards on a regular basis.

I watch my favourite TV shows where and when i want. I do not have to do it on a specific date and time that fits the cable company. Yes i still have to wait for that content to be released but it is the age of on demand content. TV is moving away from this “follow a schedule” outdated concept with services like netflix and you are going back in time.
I have time for this content but many people with families or certain jobs and obligations do not. Not to mention the latecomers who get less of a product.

But what my real problem with the way you decided to do things is that you failed to deliver a truly polished and content complete product. Not a big deal since those things should get fixed (most MMOs function that way) but to me it seems you are prioritizing narration and distractions over fixing the existing content in your game.

There are so many things in this game in dire need of attention that would require very few developers to fix that it boggles my mind why you with all your manpower have not done so. From imbalanced dungeons, pathetic world boss events to things like wasted potential like Divinitys reach that see virtually no player attention. Orr was supposed to be a PVE battleground spanning several maps. WvW feels stagnant with 3 identical maps and certain servers always facing the same opponents. PvP has seen a resurgence with the basic observer mode but if you do not continue to support and expand this game mode the people who left will not come back (if they ever even consider coming back in the first place considering your lack of support).

And finally there s the matter of communication from you the developers. Ever since this game was released me and i bet many others wonder where this ride is going. The game had such crystal clear concepts written in dozens of blog posts (that have miraculously disappeared) but with every month less and less of that vision remains.

Not only are you moving away from your vision but you are not communicating a new one clearly. There is no roadmap, nothing really for players to look forward to besides the next months update. We want to know what your plans are for this year and the next one, we want to know what we can expect in terms of content like expansions or the actual story of the dragons of Tyria. We want to know.
I understand your iterative process and the idea of trying to keep things under wraps till you are sure of them but letting your players just wander in the dark is a bad idea. The whole thing goes from “oh wow i cant wait to get to that awesome thing in the distance” to “i wonder what i ll trip over next”.

So in TLDR: let us enjoy the ride but first fix the existing content and let us know where we are heading. And dont forget to listen to us as well.

When you have everything you wanted there s only 3 things you can do with excess money:
a) make more money with it
b) give it away
c) sit (or swim) on/in it

You r obviously tired of doing a and it looks like you r not doing b so i guess you should go on the suggestion forum and suggest they make you a tower so you can swim in all your gold.

If you by any chance loose your sanity (before or after the swimming) and do b i ll be glad to take some of that gold of your hands.

This is not a compatibility problem. The game works on all dx9 cards and CPUs that meet the base requirements. It is an optimization problem.

They definitely are continuously working on it. It is a very general term encompassing many things in game development. Even client performance optimization addresses many areas from map design to something like using different compiler parameters.

However the problem is there have been no real results in CPU usage optimization. Lots of supposed work but no actual results and the same phrase over and over. Nope, not doing it for me.

Moderator.1462:

Hi everyone,

Even though we haven’t posted here, this thread has been already forwarded to the team with your concerns, so rest assured they are aware of all this.
In any case, we will ask them if they can drop a couple of lines here.

Thanks for your understanding.

I just hope the response wont be “We are continuously working on optimization…” or similar since we have been hearing that for over 10 months and besides severe workaround such as those implemented in WvW there have been zero performance improvements as far as CPU optimization is concerned. Not only does the game not scale well over multiple cores (hampering AMD cpus even more) but its also suffers from very bad polygon occlusion.
To see this in action open your settings to see your frames and go to any corner in any map that has a large simple structure opposed to that corner such as a hill or a big wall that covers your entire view. Look towards the hill (centre) then towards the corner.
Even though you ll see less actual polygons drawn towards the centre (facing the hill) your framerate will be much lower.
A perfect example of this currently is just after exiting the shortcut wurm in SAB or at the king frog area.

Yes MMOs are more CPU intensive when there are many characters running around casting spells but even so GW2s base engine is just terrible.

Also even though it has been widely requested we still have no option of tuning down particle effects that would help in performance and gameplay as with all the effects going off you often can not tell a mobs attacks or where they are facing. Fire and hit effects are particularly problematic in this regard.

After failing Tier 2 bounties 5x this week (2mult 3x, Sotzz 3x)with around 40 people trying all kinds of different ways of doing it i can honestly say ANET devs are either clueless or incompetent or both.
This is not fun, not rewarding, scales horribly and is utterly dependant on numbers and/or luck. I would link to an article written by Colin called “Is it fun?” but that has been taken down from the ANET website as have the many principles this game was designed upon initially. They are being ignored for the sake of progression, time wasting and luck based elements even though the game has no sub and was supposed to be casual friendly.

Ursan.7846:

clay.7849:

Ursan.7846:

clay.7849:

Lol, ya I got the sarcasm.

I dunno, as a GW1 only player, I guess I don’t understand the need to have lots of different tiers of level 80 gear. I never minded just showing off with the cosmetics. No one else can see those damage numbers anyways lol.

Remember, GW1 also had “tiers” of effectiveness. Only it manifested itself in titles, not gear.

I don’t follow…

GW1 had tiers of vertical progression. Namely in the title tracks, where the more you grinded, the more effective your characters became. Faction and the EoTN titles, as well as the Salvage/Lockpick ones.

Basically, more grind = higher numbers. GW1 had vertical progression, so I’m not surprised at all at the vertical progression in GW2.

Yet GW1s “vertical progression” didnt devalue any of your previous work. The titles that you mention worked more like GW2s agony infusions since they provided small defensive and offensive bonuses only versus certain mobs or made certain PVE skills slightly better.

GW2 not even 3 months after release already made 3 gear pieces obsolete and keeps on going with one piece per month virtually destroying mechanics of the game like crafting, karma, tokens… that were meant to make max stat gear be available trough many means of play.

RedStar.4218:

I don’t care about what is said in the manifesto…they show in game footage. It’s pretty weird to make footage for a creature only to take it out (although they did create an armor for the mesmer trailer that’s not in the game, but that’s another story).

They ve shown footage of the Canthan district in Divinity as well… we all know how that turned out.
As for other “legit” reasons: not everything makes it into the game due to time constraints, development complications, etc. It should turn up eventually in one form or another.

CureForLiving.5360:

Why are you even on the forums? You seem to very much not like GW2…

I hate what GW2 has become and that s exactly why i m posting here. but i guess that s too hard to comprehend for some people.

Morena.9604:

*If you like gear progression… this game isn’t for you
*If you like playing a certain role in trinity… this game isn’t for you
*If you like raids… this game isn’t for you
*If you like mounts… this game isn’t for you
*If you like amateur pvp with different modes… this game isn’t for you
*If you like semi-amateur pvp with ladders etc like wow… this game isn’t for you
*If you like pro-pvp like moba… this game isn’t for you
*If you like real open world pvp… this game isn’t for you
*Most importantly if you like to have a goal… this game isn’t for you

‘this game isn’t for you’ is a common reply to many posts and it is sadly and actually a true reply for the most posts. I really believe that devs prepared this game for a really specific(even unique) type of a player base.

This is what happens when you abandon your core principles and game design. Trying to cater to everyone simply does not work. ANET had a good strong base with GW1 but a few months after release they abandoned it. They introduced something that they ve been trying to fix for the past 4 months and they ve only managed to kitten off most of their player base in one way or another.

They need to stop flip flopping and get back to their core principles.

Yes not all games are for everyone but if they r gonna advertise something they better stick to it.

Mercucial.6759:

Except for those that want to chase items with better stats.

But it’s all about you amirite?

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you dont need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but its not required to play the game. We dont need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who dont are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Colin Johanson

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Either this is all lies or you are playing the wrong game. Considering the nov 15th update and all the subsequent ones… enjoy the game as its been changed for you.

If i had an ecto for every time someone said “ecto salvage rate was nerfed” i d be rich.

same… perfect timing aswell with my guild doing a guild mission in 10 mins

Elitists cry there s nothing to do.
ANET gives ascended gear.
Elitists cry the game is too easy
ANET makes the game harder.
Elitists cry there s nothing to do…

Welcome to progression. Welcome to the World of Guild Wars 2.

Well that s a sorry excuse if i ever heard one. Well we did hear plenty in the past months from ANET though so i guess most of us are used to it.
If these stacks are such a bandwidth issue then i dont see why they havent already resorted to adding them up as a per second(half, quarter) tick of x damage. It would require some more server CPU cycles to add those up though.

I m sick of doing dragon events and not getting anything. I ve been screwed over almost a dozen times now by the game not spawning the chest for me. And no i m not guesting on other servers or farm all day long to trigger the DR code.

Also the loot from the mobs that spawn on those events is atrocious.

Not only was the fight utterly boring but Zhaitain is rather small. I mean that thing made Orr rise from the bottom of the ocean but is not much bigger than one of his lieutenants. He should have been at least 2x if not 4x the size he is now.

kenshinakh.3672:

…

You are giving me your opinions without addressing any of the points i made just going on and on on how these are opinions and repeating the same thing over and over. I addressed your opinions and told you why you are wrong. You ve not done the same.

You say you ve done your research and analysed this with logical thinking. Well you are obviously missing important facts and your opinion is flawed. Seriously read my posts again and go read some articles on psychology, MMO game design and ANET blog posts and interviews.

Here s two quotes that you imply were never said:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/21/guild-wars-2-interview-monetization/

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you dont need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but its not required to play the game. We dont need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who dont are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Colin Johanson

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

How do ascended items have a unique look? How are they not the best? How are exotics just as powerful as ascended items? How was this game designed with stat progression in mind? How does ascended gear fit into these statements? Please tell me with all your logic how i am wrong.

The game is called Guild Wars 2. It was made because ANET figured they could do so much more with an upgraded engine and promised us supporting GW1 players they ll do right by us if we only give them time and trust. Have they? Do you now get why ascended gear is such a big deal and will (with stat progression) forever be an issue in this game?

Yea i ve brought up this issue in the betas. Hopefully they ll add more variety in expansions.

kenshinakh.3672:

snip

I already told you why your argument is invalid. Things will not be fine in a year. You are giving me opinions, i am giving you facts. You only see till the point of “when ascended gear is fully implemented” i see beyond that and yet you are completely ignoring my points.
Stat progression requires grind. When you take out the grind people attain this new level and you have no stat progression till you turn the wheel again. It is a system that in order to please some people makes others unhappy. It cycles those two states in the end pleasing noone.

You are again confusing stat progression and item rarities. Adding another tier past the original concept is not inline with what we had. It is completely different. It is adding progression instead of having a finite stat level. Yes there can be progression leading to that finite stat level but what matters is that there is a finite stat level.
With a finite stat level playing the game becomes the players choice, not a grind for better stats. It gives players the option to get different stats, to experiment builds and different areas of the game instead of just chasing the next best gear.

You are twisting my words: “You really can’t say GW2’s progression is the same as WoW.” When i clearly state that it is a matter of having progression or not.
Stat progression is not good for the players. It was put in games as a quick way out in order to keep a vocal minority of raiders happy (and subscribed) because it is a very easy reward to make. It is also not good for the game as it affects the difficulty.

And yes a lot of people came here because this game was advertised by us the players of Guild Wars to other players. Guild Wars players made this game possible. Does that mean ANET can just shove us off now just to attract more players? Sure they can but abandoning your core player base is folly. Catering to everyone simply isnt possible.

I already explained to you why your point about ascended gear being available at launch is pointless. If the gear was in the game according to what was said it would be just another tier and it would have no point since it would have to be almost as easily available as exotics.
In any case i also explained to you that it was not and that it is contradictory to the games design.
What part of this are you still not getting?

So lets say that at some point in the future ascended gear is as easily available as exotics. The people who want better gear again now go and complain. A new tier is introduced again to please these people. How exactly is this good? How does this make everyone happy?
It doesnt matter how slow it is you either have grind and perpetual stat progression (WoW, GW2 post nov 15) or you have finite stat progression (GW1). There is no middle path on this.

As for why stat progression is a step back, why it was introduced and why it is bad for the game, the players etc. go read some articles or watch some vids.

kenshinakh.3672:

Then can’t we argue that there’s no need for Exotics even? Why not stop at Normal gear?
You have a different definition of gear treadmill. I’m not sure if you have played WoW, but gear treadmill in WoW requires you to literally gear up before you can do certain later content. That, in my book, is a real gear treadmill. GW2 doesn’t require you to have ascended to even do most of the content. You could even get to fractals 15-18 without agony resistance, but by the time you get to that level, you probably already have enough relics to get some.

Ascended gear was to add more endgame content, but without imbalancing the other parts of the game. That’s why it has agony, which is only a stat that works in fractals. The stat bonus of 10% from exotics is hardly going to give you an edge in WvW or normal dungeons. It’s a nice extra boost, but I can do both of those with 80 Rares (and I even played with 78 Exotics for 2 months before I bothered gearing).

People are always going to want more and more. That’s what they expect out of an MMO. They expect it to grow and expand, offering them something new overtime. Anyone knows that you have to keep making content or else your players will reach the end and stop… It’s not like you can expect them to release a final version of the game and then stop developing. But unlike other MMOs, GW2’s progression is like a small slope. You don’t have to try hard to get near the top of that slope, and if you decide to stop for a couple months and come back, you’re not going to be behind at all. That’s the key point here, and the key difference between their “carrot” and other MMO’s carrots… If GW2 was the type of game that required me to play constantly, I would be on the same bandwagon as you, but I can see that it’s not. There’s still a sense of progression and growth, but it’s not major enough to make me worried that I’ll be left behind if I stop.

Yes we could have easily stopped with green or blue gear. Provided the game was balanced around it. That s how GW1 worked. GW2 was advertised as having more item rarity levels and noone had a problem with that since that was clearly stated and explained. It was also explained how legendaries wouldnt be better than exotics and that you wouldnt have to grind for stats.

Better stats on gear is not content. Dungeons are content, quests are content, new areas and adventures are content.

Ascended gear imbalanced all content in the game – it made it easier. If it only had an infusion slot for agony it would be ok but it is simply better in all rest of the game
Adding levels into the game would imbalance it less than ascended gear since you are downscaled.

Now here s where you are completely wrong: MMOs do not require stat progression. It is a false perception of MMOs just as that you need a holy trinity or need to have quests or mounts in an MMO. Or any other “must be like WoW” things. You can achieve progression trough many other means many of which ANET demonstrated in GW1 yet have for some reason went back on in GW2. Yes GW2 is in many aspects a step back than its revolutionary predecessor.

If you stopped playing GW1 and came back in a year or ten you would have the exact same stats as everyone else. If you stopped playing GW2 a month after release and came back two you would be behind anyone who got a single ascended piece. Sure it wouldnt be by much but it is what it is: gear progression.
And you know why that is bad? It devalues your work. Imagine someone who spent real money to buy himself a set of max stat jewellery just a week before nov 15th. or someone who poured all their free time into getting it?
I m not one of those people but how are they less important than someone who wants to keep playing 24/7 just to have that extra +5 on his stats?

Many of us who supported ANET for many years, who spread the word of this great MMO that was to destroy the many stereotypes simply do not want a perpetual hamster wheel. No matter how slow its turning. The game is called Guild Wars 2 not World of Guild Wars for what its worth.

kenshinakh.3672:

Do you think every game informs you about every single thing? Did they ever inform you which races they want to make next? How about the next fixes they’re doing? Seriously, do you expect them to inform you of every single thing possible? They inform us of things a few weeks before, just like how they inform us of those holiday events… Think about what you’re saying. I’m willing to bet you that in a year, once ascended is finally fleshed out properly, these complaints will be of the past, and getting ascended will have many ways of obtaining, just like exotics. Oh, and exotics will be easy to obtain like how rares are considered “easy” to obtain.

Yes. Why do you think i followed this game. Because the DEVs actually did inform us of virtually everything. A complete reversal in a core game mechanic however was reported to the public trough a fansite just a few days before the introduction of it.
Company transparency is something i want. Else i can not trust that company and i will not buy their products.

kenshinakh.3672:

I’m no fanboy o.O. I’m just saying what I logically see. Please think more carefully..

If ascended had more ways to obtain like exotics (unlike right now), and it was released at launch, it wouldn’t matter. It would be exactly like it was from rares to exotics.

I never said GW2 doesn’t have a gear treadmill. It’s right there at the start already, Normal->Fine->Masterwork->Rares->Exotics. However, the gear treadmill in GW2 is not your typical gear treadmill like in WoW or other games that require you to keep up with it. What part of the argument do you not understand?

If ascended had more ways to obtain like exotics there would be no point in ascended gear. Clearly you can see that. A tier above exotic was never needed on its own.

Also you are mistaking the meaning of treadmill. Item rarity is not a treadmill. Obtaining the best gear then obtaining the best new gear again since your old gear is no longer the best is a treadmill.
Whether the gear will let you do new content is completely irrelevant as long as there is a statistical benefit to it that applies to all areas of the game (except spvp).

As for your point how s this for one: Why do we need better gear if we can do all content in our current gear?

The only valid point in ascended gear is that it made the game desirable for the hardcore grinder/raider population. The people that need a carrot to enjoy the game. For everyone else the game was made worse trough it.

As soon as the gear becomes easily obtainable the grinders will demand a new carrot and the cycle can begin anew. The smart (and devious) thing ANET is doing though is slowly leaking this tier in a sense of dangling just a piece of the carrot in front of these people. But it doesnt matter. The end result is always the same: at some point the locusts will leave and the game that abandoned all its other players just to appease a vocal minority of never satisfied customers dies.

kenshinakh.3672:

There’s something a lot of people don’t realize.

Let’s think about it just a bit. If Anet already had Ascended gear from the opening day, and they had all the ways to get ascended gear already created, would people still screamed gear treadmill? Or would they have seen it differently and saw ascended gear as something a tiny bit above exotics, with stats like legendaries?

Before ascended, we had Rares -> Exotics = Lengendary. With ascended, you have Rares->Exotics->Ascended = Legendary, statwise.

Can you honestly still see ascended the same way once you think about it and realize that if Anet had it in before launch, people wouldn’t be making such a big deal out of it?

Don’t forget the next few months will introduce more and more ways to get ascended so that it is easier to get. And at the same time, Exotics and lower rarity gear get easier too.

You could argue it is a gear treadmill, but I can use the same argument and tell you that the progression from Normal->Fine->Masterwork->Rare->Exotic is also a gear treadmill. Ascended gear is like going from Rare->Exotic, but instead it’s Exotic->Ascended.

This is hugely different from a “real” gear treadmill because you don’t need full exotics or ascended to play the content. Unlike gear treadmill games, like WOW, if you’re caught with gear of lower tier (in wow you have Inspect gear), you usually get booted. It’s also very noticeable when people are ungeared vs people who aren’t. I’m sure you all can see that GW2 is different in that case.

Ascended is exactly inline with the design GW2 had initially, except it was half-ready. It’s not a big deal. I say just enjoy the game and play… You’re not going to be hugely affected by ascended if you have exotics already, and in a few months, you’ll probably have ascended too through dailies and monthlies and for just playing normally.

So what if they had it planed before release? They didnt inform us about its existence, its completely contradictory to several key points in their blog posts and it requires grind to obtain. It was introduced in a very horrible fashion akin to a typical progression based MMO and negates the idea that max level gear can be obtained trough many or rather all means of playing the game.

It is a huge deal for anyone that bought into “if you hate MMOs you r really want to check out GW2”, no grind for stats and several other points. It basically is fraud and besides requesting refunds some people even reported ANET to the FTC over it.

Stop being a fanboy and open your eyes.

It was not released with the game. According to ANET the game was ready when it was released. Hence the “when its done” statements we listened to for 5 years. This gear was not in the release or mentioned at all so stop buying these PR statements and spreading them further.

And no its is not to bridge a gap between exotics and legendary items either.
There was no gap in stats and the gap of money was filled with several other items like the “of the mists” weapons. Some people in ANETs PR department could easily run a presidential election spin room with statements like that.

And finally: it is a gear treadmill since the items were introduced after the game came out. It is not as bad as in some other games but it is a treadmill nonetheless. Sure they are “making it better” but that s just sand in the eyes of anyone following this game for half a decade.

There s been a ton of suggestions even before the ascended massacre of the manifesto began.

No we dont need the same suggestions put forth again. The problem is on ANETs end.

They are not listening, they are not answering, they are not prioritizing the important fixes.
A company that doesnt do those things wont please anyone.

Killigraphy.3075:

Anet’s solution; Never address the issue directly, and or have conversations with actual players, Close topic. Must be fun.

Actually they have responded to many issues.

However on this matter for a very good reason they ve just kept silent or given answers befitting a political spin room.
I mean they d basically have to admit they broke the manifesto, apologize and also explain how this happened and for what reasons.
But they wont. Why? Money.

Kinda funny how these threads go especially with the uninformed or preconditioned people pointing out that there was grind in GW1 (forgetting the only for cosmetics part) and that GW1 was not an MMO because MMOs must have a gear treadmill/grind forgetting what MMO and RPG really stand for. Here s a hint: its not gear and stats but numbers of players and roleplay.

No wonder this game went sour if ANET is listening to people like that. Must really every single MMO be turned into a WoW (EQ) clone nowadays so the locusts can have their fun, get bored and then leave? Apparently yes.

c4,r8 or something like that… whatever
I havent touched GW2 SPVP since beta. WvW i dropped since the game performance is just plain horrible on anything lower than OCed i5 sandy/ivy CPUs.

Here s the major flaws and reasons why this game wont ever be an esport in no specific order that i can think of right now:
you only get one launch as ANET said it themselves and there wasnt much of a launch for SPVP
boring game mode
low build variety
messy stat/trait/skill system
no observer mode/replay tools
no ANET sponsored tournaments/events
no brand recognition and effort in the esport scene
complete separation from PVE/WvW – cant show off your flair
little to no incentive for casual PVE players to play SPVP (no rewards for non-tournament play like zkeys that translate into PVE)

WvW has less problems but at least it seems they are working on some of them:
culling
game performance
zerging
map variety
PVE stat creep with ascended gear
low rewards/time invested compared to PVE
speed/teleport hacks

kenshinakh.3672:

Ascended isn’t fully fleshed out yet. So I wouldn’t be so quick to judge.

If you look at what Anet has been adding and tweaking about that, soon ascended will be like how you jump from Rares to Exotics. It’s like a small jump, definitely not vertical progression.

Plus, they said they planned ascended before the release, but didn’t have time to implement it. If they had it back at release, I’m pretty sure people would not have the same reaction as some have now.

Any “jump” is already vertical progression.

As for the “we planned it before release” nonsense:
A PR spin that i m really sick of and could discuss at length but there is no point in it since it either means the game wasnt done and we were lied to on how max stat gear was going to be obtained or (more likely) the games direction and the philosophy of the game changed shortly before release. People would have exactly the same reaction because ANET did not in any way shape or form explain and justify ascended gear besides the sentence “we listened to people”.

darkace.8925:

Ansultares.1567:

You’d have a point if they hadn’t made statements to the effect that max stats would be readily attainable

They never said “max” stats would be readily available; they said we wouldn’t have to run gear treadmills. And we don’t have to. Sure, we can grind away in an effort to obtain the most desirable gear in the game, but we can also participate in and enjoy every aspect this game has to offer without it. That’s what they meant when they said we wouldn’t have to grind to enjoy the game. I think a lot of people have greatly misconstrued what they said,

Ansultares.1567:

Anyway, it’s one thing for you or I to hold or share your opinion; it’s entirely different for Anet to do so. They need to focus on keeping as many people interested in the game as possible, and blaming the player starts them down some slippery slopes.

If a game developer tries to please everyone, they’ll ultimately please no one. Keeping as many people interested in the game as possible is certainly ArenaNet’s goal, but there’s a fundamental problem with that goal. There are too many players looking for too different things out of their MMO.

Hardcore players want to the best gear to be difficult to obtain, but casual players want a chance to obtain the best gear too. Skilled players want to be challenged by the game, but bad players don’t want to be left behind. Open world PvP’ers enjoy the thrill of hunting other players, but PvE’ers want to go about their business without being ganked.

Perfectly appeasing all of these people is impossible. You can shoot for a balance and please many of them, but you will never please all of them. There are a lot of player who need that carrot dangling from the end of the stick to keep their interest piqued. And ArenaNet has given them those carrots in the form of exotic and legendary equipment. But they’ve also given those who don’t wish to chase the carrot the freedom to enjoy every aspect of the game without them. Let me reiterate that, because that’s the important part.

There is not one single aspect of this game in which you cannot participate if you do not own exotic or legendary equipment.

That is a statement of fact. And because of that truth, the statement that the game requires grinding must be false.

First: your logic is flawed in your last statement. Grind is a very subjective thing and is not tied to exotic or legendary equipment.

However it is definitely true that you can not please everyone and it is also true that trying to please everyone will in the end please no one.
As such the introduction of ascended gear did precisely that.
Catering to a very small vocal minority of elitists forgoing their most valued customers: casuals and loyal GW1 fans by breaking their promises of how max stat gear should be available: trough many means, not by doing one dungeon over and over. Sure they r trying to mend that but in the end it ll turn out as:
Either the gear will take too long to obtain and will require too much time invested for casuals and they will be unhappy. (state after nov 15)
Or the gear will (most likely) be relatively easily obtainable trough many different means thus making the elitists unhappy by resetting the treadmill. (state in near future)

At which point a new tier can be introduced to again “fix” this “problem”. ANET had the solution in GW1 yet they decided to go back to a broken system and yet another game is ruined by vertical progression, gear grind and treadmills.

You may argue that i do not need exotics or ascended gear to experience the game but i can just as well argue that you dont need ascended gear either. If i dont need the carrot why should you?
Finally this is not a matter of gating content but the fact that this system devalues everyones efforts of obtaining previous max stat gear. Those who realize this are already unhappy. Those who dont will at some point reach the same conclusion. A gear treadmill is a gear treadmill. You get gear. That gear is now not what you wanted (for whatever reason). You get new gear. Repeat.

Change ascended items to have the same stats as exotics. Infusions only affect agony.
Apologize to the players and promise no lvl increases and gear stat increases ever.

Adjust open world drops to be even with dungeons.
Make champions drop at least green items and reduce their health by ~20%.
Make dragon and large boss fights more dynamic.
Change Orr so you have to get the events in the first map up to a certain point to get to the next one – multi zone event chain.

Improve client performance and add server side checks for movement.

Just the few i can think of the top of my head.

Of all the points listed by the OP only the ascended gear is the actual problem.

Yes exotics do take some time to get but as in the original promise of the game once you get them you are set. After nov 15th however that however is a lie.

darkace.8925:

Astralporing.1957:

darkace.8925:

Then run FotM. What exactly is it you people want? What other MMO hands out top-tiered items for nothing?

GW1 – and it was good.

Funny, because I had to work for every single weapon and suit of armor displayed in my Hall of Monuments. I guess I missed the “Free Best Gear in the Game” Vendors in Lion’s Arch. Bummer, because that could have saved me a ton of time.

Funny because that “top tier gear” was not a single point better than a blue sword gotten of a collector for 5 junk items, crafted with a few common materials or bought of a person for pennies.

We were promised no “grind for stats” yet that is exactly what this game has turned into. Everyone was always fine with grind (progression) for cosmetics. That was the whole point till ANET supposedly listened to people and turned this game into WoW 2.0

Why do you think exotics are available trough many different means? So all players could attain max stat gear relatively quickly and in the way they wanted to play the game.
Yet this was all ruined with FotM where playing the game has turned into a one dungeon grind and this new laurel thing is just more unnecessary things ruining a very good system. For what?
So a few “proper MMO players” can have their fix for a few weeks then whine again on how there s nothing to do.

kitten ascended gear.

Vorch.2985:

I give ANet a pass on ascended gear because it was supposed to be in the game at launch and they did not have time to add it.

Should they add a next tier, I will not be as forgiving.

Something completely counter intuitive to 5 years of development, against their core philosophy of no grind for max stat gear and that being available trough many means in the game, held secret from the public… then without warning released in only one place with only one way of obtaining it.
And you believe this stuff?

Laurels are just damage control.

Also just by pointing out that “there wont be a new tier above ascended this year” they ve made it very clear in what direction this game is going.

I thought the daily would be selective (complete 3 objectives out of 5 or similar) to get the reward. What happened to that?

aluisiora.4568:

I still don’t get the complaints, do people really expect to waste time and money to get the exotic and then, after 1 year playing, still be with the same gear?

Of course the game needs some kind of progression, such as raising lvl cap, adding new stuff, new gears, new set designs. I agree that Ascended gear came too soon and it should be even harder to get, but this such things are necessary, would you play i.e. GTA for a year straight knowing that you actually didn’t make any progress? I guess not.

I hate Blizzard and WoW soo much. They conditioned most of the MMO community into thinking they need these things when in fact they provide nothing. And i hate the fact that ANET gave into this pathetic mindset of a hamster wheel.

We played GW1 for 7 years. There was no stat progression.

Because ANET sold out.

I wish ANET would put such questionnaires into the game. They sure as hell have the tech to do it.

1) Yes – in fact i d prefer if it never was implemented
2) Yes – its a reasonable fix to the whole ascended gear debacle
3) Yes – no vertical progression please
4) No – WvW should work as it was intended, an “extension” of PVE
5) Yes – only where necessary
6) Yes – MF is counter intuitive to the games philosophy of cooperation
7) N/A
8) Yes – only due to ascended gear
9) Yes – i hate RNG
10) N/A – depends on many things
11) No – i ve lost all faith in ANET and GW2 with the nov 15th update
12) No – absolutely not