So essentially what you are saying is that a condi build should be able to win a fight against a bunker no matter what? The VERY POINT of a bunker is to not lose a 1v1 under any circumstances they are supposed to hold out against ANY offense in a 1v1 no matter what. (See what I did there)
The big issue here is that toughness is a very good counter to direct damage. Which is fine ANET has stated that it is intended purpose. Vitality is a terrible counter to conditions which anet has stated they want to be the defense against conditions. It isn’t working. 1v1 a condition build is dominating the entire game. They are also dominating in team fights across the board.
I may be stupid, but Bunkers are there to last longer than their opponents so help can arrive when they need it and the point is not taken.
EDIT: Which is exactly what your quote from the wiki says. It does not mean that they should not loose in 1v1.
Put a condi cleanse on your bar and use it with some modicum of intelligence and bunker away. To be really pedantic, try looking at Melandru’s runes, and there is a sigil or two, and probably some traits that will help. You have to take condi as seriously as you take direct damage. You have to figure it into your build and take some tradeoffs for goodness sake.
The reason why people are whining so much about condi builds is that they refuse to do that, understand the threat and adapt accordingly.
Or perhaps your build and playstyle is particularly susceptible to conditions.
The current iteration of Moa allows for easy escapes. When I get Moa’ed, it sometimes ends up saving me because I, as a Mesmer, get a bunch of mobility that I otherwise wouldn’t have access to.
That is exactly what I was I was thinking. At best it makes the person run away. If the Mesmer is low on health you just stack pecking at him.
It is a good counter to Necros though. It counters DS and our transformations as well as MM builds. It is very disappointing to go from a mighty Litch to a Moa.
I don’t know if it was like this before but when I’m taking more damage than I have life force and I’m switching back to my normal health bar, there is a one second delay before I can use my normal skills again. Is this intended?
Use the map ping and drawing feature to better communicate with your team
Type out in /team when you have incoming and if you might need help
Too often it seems you do not have time to type out anything. Something to make communications in hot join and SoloQ easier would be a great help. It is sometimes difficult to know what a ping means, go here, need help, etc.
I wish we could make communication macros to ask for help at your location. I did this in WoW’s Battlegrounds when I was in a pug and it helped a lot.
They should have a new newb area that everyone attends before they can play PvP. You will go and fight where we ping. Map pings, then you do it over again. You will now have to finish someone without getting interrupted. Again. Again. You will now knockdown someone while they finish someone and then rez. Again. Again. You will now have to fight on a node and not let the enemy neut it for 1 minute. Again. Again. You will now capture a node. Again. Again. Finally you will now have to call for help by pinging the map. Again. Again. Congratulations you have passed the tutorial you are now skilled and ready to play PvP.
Are we playing the same game? Since the DS change in the most recent patch, condi necros can literally tank a 15k+ burst in DS alone…
Perhaps, if the necro has a full bar and some investment in the Soul Reaping line, but
It is hard for a standard condi build to fill up that bar. Condi necros will have it up far less than other builds.
If a Condi necro does this, it is very unlikely he will be able to use that again in the engagement.
The post we were talking about said Necrosis could tank all day with DS when consistent use of ds with a full lifeforce bar is just not possible for a condi build
What necro doesn’t invest in soul reaping now? 30/20/0/0/20 is pretty much the standard right now. That’s 20% more hp in DS, +10% life force gain, spectral armor at 50% hp…and taking spectral armor as a utility is very common now. Life force is NOT hard to get at all…when I play a necro I always have at least half my DS bar up when I enter and I use it very aggressively.
The only time a necro is most vulnerable is in the beginning of the match with no life force.
Half won’t absorb what you said it would, what was it, 15k worth of damage? Plus if you use it aggressively, your exiting with less than you started, especially if you are using scepter, and if you are condi, then you are using that for most of the fight.
As you know, that bar fluctuates quite a bit, so allways staring with half? Really? After using it aggressively in the last fight?
And yes, lf generation is difficult in the middle of a fight with a condi build. You can not continually tank with DS with a condi build which was the comment I was originally responding to said.
Are we playing the same game? Since the DS change in the most recent patch, condi necros can literally tank a 15k+ burst in DS alone…
Perhaps, if the necro has a full bar and some investment in the Soul Reaping line, but
It is hard for a standard condi build to fill up that bar. Condi necros will have it up far less than other builds.
If a Condi necro does this, it is very unlikely he will be able to use that again in the engagement.
The post we were talking about said Necrosis could tank all day with DS when consistent use of ds with a full lifeforce bar is just not possible for a condi build
Use the map ping and drawing feature to better communicate with your team
Type out in /team when you have incoming and if you might need help
Too often it seems you do not have time to type out anything. Something to make communications in hot join and SoloQ easier would be a great help. It is sometimes difficult to know what a ping means, go here, need help, etc.
I wish we could make communication macros to ask for help at your location. I did this in WoW’s Battlegrounds when I was in a pug and it helped a lot.
Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…
Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.
Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up
+1 on this.
No one has enough condi clense at this point, except mayyyyyyybe spirit rangers because of the water field in healing spring.
There plenty ways to evade + mitigate physical dmg (aegis, proc, evades, dodges) but you’re pretty much screwed when it comes to condis. The only thing you can do is pop your utilities and/or heals. In a normal setting you can realistically only fit 1 condi clear in your utilities…the other 2 are crucial to your build. Thus if you try to bring more condi cleanse, you will end up with a unsuccessful build.
Condi vs physical dmg is very skewed, especially with the current meta.
Necros can tank all day in and out of DS while dishing out nuclear bombs of condis…what exactly can a direct dmg class do that equates to this?
Every one of the the the items you list will prevent Condi damage from being applied in the first place.
Your last sentence about Death Shroud is just plain wrong. Necro Condi builds have very poor Life Force generation so utilizing DS is difficult. In one encounter, you can’t generate enough LF to refill an empty bar. If you can, then it is not a Condi build.
That is the difference between you and me.
You only want a game to work, I want a game to be worth playing.
Yeh, that’s a fair way to characterize his POV. Szesh.
BTW if you have something that reduces Condi damage and you can cleanse the condis, you go back to privileging direct damage.
To be really pedantic, the concept behind conditions is that you inflict somewhat damage but it is over time and can be cleansed. The condition build has to balance the risk of that setup.
I am surprised people are not asking for lower cooldowns on cleanses or a wider array of abilities with some kind of cleansing or condition transfer to them. It avoids having yet another stat you have to juggle in your head.
The problem is moreover that condition builds have thoughness, which directly affect power builds. On the otherside power builds have no stat to reduce condition damage. As simple as that.
I usually use rabid, but have tried Shaman’s (Toughness primary, Healing and condi) with Runes of the undead (5% of toughness into condi) which boosts my condi to 600+ (30/30/0/0/10 build). The extra survivability is nice though the drop in DPS is noticeable vs rabid.
Also I don’t rely on Terror, it simply compliments the usage of fear to lock down low-healthed opponents, for short a Terror nerf wouldn’t truly hurt the build to bring it down to normal levels.
I’ll just say it again… as long as burning is there you still have that extra damaging condition condition. It takes up one more cleansing spot, this does not only make the whole combo stronger but every condition that other classes can’t clear at once.
Nerfing Terror damage or reducing burning duration wouldn’t change that.
If the damage is reduced drastically enough to balance this specific combo then builds that don’t use both are going to be too weak.
In fact, I bet if they remove Dhuumfire, more than half of the people will stop complaining.
I call BS. We still have less conditions available to us than many other condition builds, and we are a debuff/DoT class! We are suppose to be strong in those areas. Honestly, if it was that fire took up a cleansing slot, then why do people not complain about, say engineers and the wide variety of conditions, including burning poison, etc. etc.
Because we went from being free kills to one of the greatest threats.
While there are legitimately broken builds around ( 30/30/10 comes to mind ) the necromancer as a whole is definitely not overpowered. We’re still a tier below the ever dominant mesmers.
the last patch sort of gave a minor nerf to mesmer
One man’s opinion does not make it so.
errr…
that list is compiled from top tpvp players and the rest of the community………
i took no part in making the list
tenebrous is one man,s opnion but the first post is the community
Again aggregated opinion is just that. What does “the community” or “top tpvp players” even mean in this sense?
My understanding is there was not even much of a Necro presence in top tPvP so if we start showing up as something that was not to be steamrolled we will get a reaction. Moreover, how many people play necro regularly among “Top players,” given necro’s previous lack of representation among that tier of folks.
That reaction is more representative of something new, probably something people have not played allot before, rather that what is really there.
Because we went from being free kills to one of the greatest threats.
While there are legitimately broken builds around ( 30/30/10 comes to mind ) the necromancer as a whole is definitely not overpowered. We’re still a tier below the ever dominant mesmers.
I think this is actually very important…. no other class is allowed to retain any progress.. why should the necro?
I am sorry but this is just ignorant. What other classes die then are unable to use their class skill once they step onto the field?
On the burning issue, Necros need something other than bleed and poison as an offencive condition in regular rotation, if they are to be a debuff/DoT class. They are too low damage (poison is more a utility debuff than a DoT in any case) and too easy to purge at a fraction of their damage.
I was surprised at the 4 sec duration for Dhruumfire (sp?) when I saw it. Perhaps it should be dialed back a bit, either in duration (2-3 sec.) or likelihood to proc (to 50% or so on crit.)
If the terror trait is the problem move it to the grandmaster tier, giving it a small buff to compensate (It moved from the first to second tier of traits w/o modification if I remember correctly).
Allot of these posts seem to want to roll back the Necro to before the patch when we were faceroll bait for everyone else in PvP, but that is just not fair for dedicated Necro players.
Lord forbid some people start putting a condition cleanse on their bar and use it judiciously (Hint: Do not use it on the first poison or stack of 4 bleeds you get).
Most of what people are talking about existed before the patch when Necors were underpowered and did relatively poorly in PvP. If you want to complain show the difference, the before and after.
I think really what is going on is that more necros are showing up to PvP so people have to figure out how to counter them.
Necro killed this game for me. Playing as a meditation guardian I just didn’t get a look in. It had an answer for anything. I gap close in, it turned blindness against me. I block with focus,..its marks were unblockable..I judges intervention in,..it feared me away..I smited condition, so now only the other 7 to deal with. I converted the huge condition stack to boons…had them corrupted. By the time I was doing damage..they swapped out to alt lifeforce bar and tormented/feared me to death.
It felted “balanced”. Pvp in this game has turned me off all of guild wars 2 in under 3 months.
So you expect to counter everything other people do, but when someone does that to you, you quit the game? That makes sense.
@Ultima Everything you describe was available to necros before the patch. What has changed?
Med.6150, great points! To piggyback a little on what kirito.4138 said, are you also fine with having every map be a conquest map? Or do you think that new game modes would/should not require respecing as well?
I guesss what I’m getting at is, what is it about changing your spec that you do not like? Is it just having to learn how to play a different spec, or is it the idea of having to click all those buttons and change your gear around (ie helped with templates)?
I would love different types of modes (pure capture the flag would be a personal favorite).
Fear spam necros? That’s a new one. Just don’t walk into the Necrowall. Other than that Necros have Stakitten which is on a long CD and fear in death shroud, which will have an both the internal CD and the death shroud CD. No way to spam fear really.
Thanx. It could have been a lot worse, I guess? But yeah, the styles do somewhat mismatch.
I don’t know if it’s just me, but although I like majority of the skins introduced in this patch in themselves, I seem to have a lot of trouble seeing how they can be integrated into my existing characters :S (including the dragon helm and the wings)
Same. Got one lucky ticket while farming holograms. Will probably save it for future use. Id imagine the jade weapons would be a good theme for tengu characters. Only weapon i actually 100% like is the axe though. The rest are either horrible or ok.
I do have a plan to put the wings on my guardian with his super weapons and the shatterer wings on my mesmer though.
If there was more actual personal skill involved in the majority of wvw….you would see less people relying on the amount of people they run around with. That is a simple fact. Not my opinion.
Granted there are some situations where really talented players run with bigger zergs, VERY VERY infrequently the case.
It is hard to tell individual skill in a zerg when it is subsumed in the mass of players. That does not mean there are not skilled players in a zerg.
Which brings me back to my original point, “More skillful players in general will rely less on masses (subsuming them)”
And in GW2, thats not the case for the most part.
The thing is you can’t really consistently take objectives above an unoccupied tower with small groups (5 or less). The nature of WvW tends to move people towards larger groups.
If there was more actual personal skill involved in the majority of wvw….you would see less people relying on the amount of people they run around with. That is a simple fact. Not my opinion.
Granted there are some situations where really talented players run with bigger zergs, VERY VERY infrequently the case.
It is hard to tell individual skill in a zerg when it is subsumed in the mass of players. That does not mean there are not skilled players in a zerg.
The point of WvW is not PPT or score, it is rating.
If you fight a stronger opponent and hold your own (while losing PPT), you will gain rating.
If you fight a weaker opponent and win by only a little (while winning the PPT), you will lose rating.
If you randomly get assigned an opponent that is too strong for you, you are not doomed. Instead, this is a great chance to steal some of their rating points. If you randomly get assigned to a weaker tier, be careful not to let your guard down, or you might lose rating.
Every battle has meaning now.
There is always the opportunity for success, even against impossible odds. This will become the new meta, it is just a matter of time before everyone realizes it.
Why would you call this a bad thing?
Because it is not tracked in game in a visable way. Again lower tier (if they are like mine) servers have more marginal players which turn out for WvW when there it seems their participation will make a difference. If it does not there is always PvE.
Rating is not an explicit in game stat. like the score is. Explaining it is kinda pointless because it is often counter intuitive, and it is mostly the WvW involved players that will check mos.millenium.org and understand the rating system.
With matchups where you are getting beat into the ground, yet gaining rating, there is all these marginal players see is the score, so they are less motivated to turn out, which means we will be consistantly outnumbered (often by quite a bit) and have a problem drawing more people into liking WvW in general. You can not sustain ratings on that.
That is a very good point. Perhaps Anet could build this into the GUI. If the ranks, ratings and rating changes were all easily visible, that would probably change peoples’ perspectives. They could even take it a step further, and show the average PPT needed to maintain your current rating, thus setting a reasonable goal in players minds.
Instead of thinking:
“We suck and this is hopeless.”
or “We are dominating this is pointlessly easy.”
They might instead think:
“We are fighting a server three ranks ahead of us and gaining rating, GJ guys!”
or “We might be winning, but we are losing rating to these guys three ranks below us.”
@Roo Stercogburn: Looks like you did not understood the new system.
So far Gunnars hold is the match winner with +56 rating points, Riverside is second with +23 points and Piken the looser of the match with -72pts.
Rating is what you are fighting for! Rating is the thing that remains with your server when the match is over. GH currently fights over expectation, and that’s why you win most.
And this is nice in the new system! It has different challenges for you. It can be either
- Defend your rating by dominating a weaker server (Piken fails to do so currently)
- win through in an even match (Riverside does this vs Piken)
- Resist the domination of a stronger server (GH’s does this well at moment)
In fact you can have every mixture of the above as you have 3 sides in the match.
Both scores matter. It hard to motivate anyone except the hard core on increases in Glicko.
Title says it all. I know I enjoyed my old server matchup in T4. Yes, we won every week in points because of a strong oceanic presence, but in North American prime time, we’d have even numbers and sometimes be outmanned. Was fun. Going up 2 tiers on a “random” multiplier is the worst idea in the history of gaming.
No fun = no more GEM $ for Anet from me.
Sounds like the can’t win = no fun bus showed up.
It is hard for a server to stay motivated when they are beaing badly beat. Losing is not fun anyway you look at it.
You can’t be serious… Then why do all the second and third place servers keep playing? JQ doesn’t win every week, but every week we have a LOT of fun.
Then why do all the second and third place servers keep playing?
Because servers have a core of players that play no mater what. When you have a smaller player base, it is easier to build that base when you have wins, because that is the only visual ingame measure of success. JQ obviously has a good sized base because it is in the top tier.
In WvW JQ (tier 1), which has a robust, dedicated WvW core, is not comparable to NSP (my server, tier 6). A better score motivates people to show up. The more people that show up, the more people that will become more dedicated to WvW. It’s simple.
If ratings were more visable in game, the story might be different, as my comrade from GoM indicated above. If you look at the ratings of the current DH-GoM-NSP matchup, NSP actually looks really . . . plucky. That story is just hard to communicate to people only nominally familar with WvW.
OMG..I’m sure that will let them overcome the 60k Point advantage you already have.
Not to mention, You have a 200 point Score advantage over HoD…..Big difference no doubt…But DB has a 400 Point Advantage over SBI…
Get. Over. Winning. If that was the case, 2/3rds of the entire game population would emoquit like you claim your server is. If you aren’t having fun with WvW, get out, it’s not meant for you.
Do you not think that aspects of WvW outside of rating do not affect morale? Do you think server morale does not matter?
As we see in the bottom tier in both NA and EU good turn out on all sides makes for better WvW.
Because it is the only visual way to measure WvW ingame, score matters for turn out and overall quaility of WvW if you like it or not, even if it is a purly psycological factor.
The point of WvW is not PPT or score, it is rating.
If you fight a stronger opponent and hold your own (while losing PPT), you will gain rating.
If you fight a weaker opponent and win by only a little (while winning the PPT), you will lose rating.
If you randomly get assigned an opponent that is too strong for you, you are not doomed. Instead, this is a great chance to steal some of their rating points. If you randomly get assigned to a weaker tier, be careful not to let your guard down, or you might lose rating.
Every battle has meaning now.
There is always the opportunity for success, even against impossible odds. This will become the new meta, it is just a matter of time before everyone realizes it.
Why would you call this a bad thing?
Because it is not tracked in game in a visable way. Again lower tier (if they are like mine) servers have more marginal players which turn out for WvW when there it seems their participation will make a difference. If it does not there is always PvE.
Rating is not an explicit in game stat. like the score is. Explaining it is kinda pointless because it is often counter intuitive, and it is mostly the WvW involved players that will check mos.millenium.org and understand the rating system.
With matchups where you are getting beat into the ground, yet gaining rating, there is all these marginal players see is the score, so they are less motivated to turn out, which means we will be consistantly outnumbered (often by quite a bit) and have a problem drawing more people into liking WvW in general. You can not sustain ratings on that.
GRIM has had some great fights, its given us a chance to work on our fields and finishers and focus firing.
In other news, sounds like we are about ready to get an influx of folks from a popular server here in the near future, We get our Resets Fixed and Couches wont be safe in a 10 mile radius, Exciting times!
Who cares if you win or lose? All these sticklers about winning confuse me. Out of three servers in every tier, only one can win. Out of 24 servers every given week, that means only 8 are winners. Typically with the way the tiers have been arranged, only very rarely would we see close enough matches for first and second place to swap and determine a new winner, and in almost all scenarios the third place team was consistent and had no chance to be a “winner” no matter the scenario, and was reduced to playing for second most of the time. For months it was just the same 6-8 “winners” winning over and over with typically favorable-overwhelming odds, I fail to see how that begs any particular merit.
So really, the majority of servers won’t get to experience week by week winning anyways, and who really cares that much about that? If the only boast to that primarily is coverage and numbers, then it really isn’t that big a deal. If you value the match-up you get by the impressive battles contained within rather than some overrated PvDoor determined scoring system and holding a fancy green keep week by week, than you will find enjoyment no matter who your opponent is. Furthermore there is always excitement and enjoyment to be found in meeting new acquaintances, friends, rivals, notable guilds and what not.
Hey, that is great for your, but if you slap a score on something some people will naturally want a high score. Not me, but some people, and those are the people my server needs to turn out to change or WvW situation, unfortunately.
It is hard for a server to stay motivated when they are beaing badly beat. Losing is not fun anyway you look at it.
SoS is losing badly in T2, but they’re bringing the fight like crazy. They have an indomitable spirit. A lot of servers out there fight harder when they’re losing, and have fun doing it.
You can make that case for almost all servers at some level because they have some level of dedicated WvW players. The lower tier servers tend to have more marginal players where they show up if they think they can help us win, often because the PvE scene on those servers is pretty robust.
@Roo Stercogburn: Looks like you did not understood the new system.
So far Gunnars hold is the match winner with +56 rating points, Riverside is second with +23 points and Piken the looser of the match with -72pts.
Rating is what you are fighting for! Rating is the thing that remains with your server when the match is over. GH currently fights over expectation, and that’s why you win most.
And this is nice in the new system! It has different challenges for you. It can be either
- Defend your rating by dominating a weaker server (Piken fails to do so currently)
- win through in an even match (Riverside does this vs Piken)
- Resist the domination of a stronger server (GH’s does this well at moment)
In fact you can have every mixture of the above as you have 3 sides in the match.
Both scores matter. It hard to motivate anyone except the hard core on increases in Glicko.
Title says it all. I know I enjoyed my old server matchup in T4. Yes, we won every week in points because of a strong oceanic presence, but in North American prime time, we’d have even numbers and sometimes be outmanned. Was fun. Going up 2 tiers on a “random” multiplier is the worst idea in the history of gaming.
No fun = no more GEM $ for Anet from me.
Sounds like the can’t win = no fun bus showed up.
It is hard for a server to stay motivated when they are beaing badly beat. Losing is not fun anyway you look at it.
Winning makes or break people. This guy isn’t used to losing; so the system isn’t making him but breaking him. He just needs to learn that it is a part of wvw to win and lose some of the time.
.
