Guild Wars 2

Sorry, but traps are to us, what stealth is to the rest of the community. Everyone complains about how OP we are, I have a feeling that these traps are going to kitten our stealth in WvW, which may (and I actually hope) leads to PvE. I don’t abuse Stealth, I use it to engage, surprise, chase, and disengage. I don’t use the D/P build of heartseeker+smoke field, so the change won’t destory my build as much just slightly hender it.

If I was a D/P build, I’d be kitten , however the D/P build is kinda cheap imho (I’m very agaisnt Meta’s so :P) so I’m kinda happy, kinda sad (cause its affecting my class) quite bitter sweet.

As a Commander though its another tool that I will be able to use in defense and offense of zergs

Lol, this just came to mind…what if by “Trap” it adds to the skills of the Classes with “Traps” (Ranger and Thief) and thus only those classes get access to the De-Stealthing Trap? XD Ranger and Thief get a buff woooo!

Coming from SWG, I know how Player Housing and Guild Halls (Housing and City Housing) should be done.

Player Housing…
- Able to add interactive Furniture…(Chairs that can be sat in, Food to be eaten, Holograms that do a dance, something besides just sitting there unable to be used)
- Trophies…killing world bosses, getting certain achievements, getting certain items (Legendary)
- DIFFERENT TYPES OF HOUSES (Everyone getting the same box with the same 4 walls is NOT the way to go)
- Able to pay NPCs to set up a shop, or able to set up a market stall in your house for visiting players (able to set items that you want to privately sell)
- Friends able to visit your house without your permission
- Able to lock said friends out of your house if you don’t want them in.
Thats really all I can think of for Player Housing…

Guild Halls
- Owning a guild hall eats away at a monthly/weekly cost via the Guild Bank, IE not a one time cost.
- Able to have other guilds visit
- Housed in only a certain city, each city costs a different amount (inspired via DOT.HACK, of based on what City you had to go to see a Guild, you knew how big their pockets were (A City in Lions Arch would be “greater” in value then a city in say, The Grove.)) estate prices and such :P
- each new function of the city (Banks, PvP, GvG, WvW, Merchants, etc) adds to the upkeep of the guild, so buying a Bank would add a new section to your city (not just an NPC) but would also cost say…1g more per month.

Yes, I know my Guild Halls opinion isnt what people are going to want…at all…but it will keep guilds active, and keep the Guild Hall as something that is only for the Guilds that can afford it.

Personally, I’d love a class that could change between Armor types.

Skills could then differ (or even simply do less damage) in exchange for more toughness

Monk would be a prime example…a Monk could use Heavy armor at the cost of all of their skills having their damage reduced by 15%, Med would be base, while Light would increase by 10-15%

How does it “ignore” skill? if anything it is dependent upon it, is there luck in it? Yes.

But if a Thief with 30% HP stealths when fighting another class with health at 100%, what does your skill/experience tell you? He is going to run. Stealth or not, the player is going to run. Does stealth give it a bit of uncertainty? Yes, of course it does, luck is still in the equation, no one is saying it isn’t, however everyone else is saying that Luck takes over skill. It doesn’t, you still act and react based on what you know.

You guys make it sound like if a Thief stealths I have the same chance at hitting him if I were to throw an AoE at my feet, as if I were 1,200m away. Use what you know, use what he was doing before, use what you were doing and extrapolate data.

What makes Stealth different from someone pressing a skill that leaps? It isn’t fair because I couldn’t stop it mid-range because its too fast! <- Same arguement, which is flawed because other classes have things which do the same effect, but in a different way.

BECAUSE of all the complaints Thief and Mesmer are getting hard counters in the form of Arrow Cart skills and now Invisible revealing traps…which btw, I can tell you arnt going to work unless they bind us because even us going into stealth you claim is a hack, so by your logic something that removes us from stealth doesn’t fix the problem.

Only playable races I think they are going to add…Tengu for sure, this has been hinted at again and again. We know that Primoudeous (spelling?) has reached inside the walls of the Dominion of Wind, so the Tengu have a connection to wanting to fight a Dragon.

The Largos have also stated that Unknown Horrors have driven them from their home, AKA Bubbles. Another race with a reason to go join our Dragon Killing Pact.

An expansion focused around the Largos would also give us the content addition to Underwater Content

…you are comparing, a fully completed game, and a game that has a multitude of updates and expansions to a new game. Yes, GW2 is still quite new. Update wise we havnt had much content added, that is a different discussion, for a different topic. Nothing was removed. Something that hasnt been added, doesn’t mean it was removed. GW2 was not just an add-on to GW1, they are completely different games, you shouldn’t compare them just straight away like that, if you wanted a better comparision compare GW2 to the first few months of GW1.

Had a great time retaking SM from GoM We tried it last night with a 6 man golem rush and barely got stopped in the Lord’s room, so we tried it again with 3 golems and oh look, we got it.

…what about a Fractal in which you take Shiro’s place (or the villians place is the main idea) and you have to kill the Togo ;D The Feels!

Or your party takes the place of the Great Destroyer and you have to fight off an adventuring party (your self) with an army of stone dwarfs behind them!

Another somewhat common sense way is buying up holiday items (such as packs of snowballs, Holiday skins, IE Temporary items) then selling them a few months after the holiday/event items have left the normal gettable means.

Example : Bought a pack of snowballs for 50c, sold it 3 months later for 5s 33c.

Reignald.3794:

For a game that was suppose to have an emphasis on vanity, we’ve gotten very little new vanity items to strive for outside of the gem shop stuff (which has been primarily town clothes).

I know that you said new however…

Armor -
Dungeon Armor
Karma Vendor Armor
WvW Armor
Gem Shop Armor
LS Gloves
PvE Common Armor
Order Armor (Story Armor)
Cultural Armor

not to mention all the dyes that you can get ONTOP of the armor…I see plenty of vanity items. Now the problem that I’ve encountered is that there isnt any new armor that is coming out that is making me want to swap up my current Armor/Dye set.

@OP – Don’t complain about some stuff being Gem Story only, ANET uses that to keep the game up, I’m quite greatful that they allow us to trade Gold for Gems, compared to most games that don’t allow trading via the currency shop.

First of all, when they say base damage, I don’t beleive they are talking about Crit Damage as being apart of the base damage…hince the BASE part…however thats odd because a core mechanic of Thief is dealing constant Crit damage…so…I dunno lol.

I’ve been fine with all the nerfs, but the SB nerfs have always rubbed me the wrong way :/

Totally. In my first group going through fighting them, 2 of our group members died (Flame Stomp thingy killed em) and they started making TMNT, and Power Ranger jokes…sooooo funny and well done.

PRETTY sure that you guys are talking about the 4 skins (Mace, Shield, Bow, Quiver) that is in the cash shop.

stale.9785:

Again, I’ll say that I’m good with complete boon negation. Give each class one (that’s one – 1 – a single and solitary) skill that removes all boons from a single target.

If the skill names aren’t being used already;

Warriors can have “Skull Crack”
Ele’s get “Mind Shock”
Mesmer gets “Panic”
Necromancers “Rend Enchantment”
Guardian “Banish”
Ranger “Magebane Shot”
Thief “Aura of Displacement”
Engineer “Dissonance Philtre”

Each skill has a variation of “Remove all boons from target” cast time 1.25, recharge 60. Make them a skill type that has a traited recharge reduction; ie survival for rangers, meditation for guardians, cantrip for ele, etc.

Gives everyone a fair shot at killing boons, without punishing classes/characters that use them.

Sorry but giving access to the same skill to everyone doesn’t make for balance…balance is dealing with the differences in each classes own way, not giving everyone the same toy…sure it gets the job done at times, but its just cheap and lazy…

Dante.1508:

Temp content doesn’t ruin the game generally, but it does feel like its a wasted effort to me, what i mean by that is while they spend so much time coding content that is temporary their main content becomes stagnant and never gets overhauls and fixes it needs, which is bad because that’s the main part of the game..

Game mechanics and large portions of the world is dead or hardly played while everyone is on this temporary content..when it goes away its back to bad unused content again which upsets and bores players into leaving..

Pointless content depends on the player, i personally liked SAB but feel spvp is pointless, so i guess each player is different in opinions..

I’d much rather see the game getting overhauls and balancing than some more flame and frost, with some temp dungeon, but that’s me..
Some temp content does feel a waste of time, but i guess that’s personal opinion..

Keep in mind that the Dev team isn’t just working on one thing at a time, while yes a LITTLE development time is spend working on a project, there are (I would guess) atleast 5 different Content updates being worked on in some way at all time at ANET (Removing the last temp Content, Fixing bugs from the Current one, final touches for the next one, working on the one after that, and storyboarding the one after that) they can Multitask, ANET has proven they can do that quite well imo.

Just to kinda go in line with the OP and give some examples of Temp Content that was used as a testing enviroment, was the Halloween event, which the JP led to the creation of the SAB (watch the dev interview)

The Karka Event, pretty much gave birth to the living story stuff, with all the complaints and suggestions which how it should had been handled, we say from an open world event, to multiple open world events with the impacting events happening in instances…

to the LS complainers – keep in mind this is the FIRST arc of the living story stuff…the Karka event was bad because it was one time and if you missed it you were SOL…the first event of each type is GOING to be bad/have negative marks simply because it was new and untested. Give them time and they will make it shine.

I believe that with each return of Temp Content, they will either add on to it, or if they don’t, you can view it as time that is being spent on something more important. Is that the plus side? Yep, but we know the SAB is only going to get better, and I wouldn’t mind doing the SAME Halloween event atleast for 2 more years…(that freakin’ JP man…so good)

In regards to my above post, I have seen Elementalists out run Thieves using RTL and other things…while the Thief in question may have not been the best, and ignoring the Eles skill, RTL needed a SLIGHT rebalance in terms of distance traveled or cooldown. They know people use it in open world to increase run times, so why not start there?

Provost.6210:

Geotherma.2395:

What about the fact that they are changing the skills between PVP and PVE?

I don’t see what bearing that has on anything. We’ve already established that they continue to make changes across the game without considering what it is their players want. Why is this such a hard concept for you to grasp?

Let me put this in the form of an analogy. I invite you to join me at a sea-side resort. The resort serves a variety of dishes, a number of which you really enjoy, a number of which you might sample, and some of which you don’t particularly like. You can also enjoy sunbathing on the private beach, or engaging in water-oriented activities such as water-skiing or water polo.

How long would you continue to stay if I decided to change the menu, drastically reducing the things you enjoy, increasing the things you didn’t like; or dumped manure all over the private beach; or introduced a shark population into the local waters?

Suppose that I were not open to your concerns for your safety and well-being. How long do you expect you would remain at my resort?

ArenaNet has continually told its player base that it doesn’t care what they think. Do you truly find that acceptable?

Ok, I read your first sentence and stopped. As a programmer/Game Dev, there are 2 things that you work on…what the players want…then what needs to happen in the sake of balance. Just because all the players want a single class to be OP, doesn’t mean the devs are gonna allow that. ANET has shown time and time again they are open to comments and suggestions, and with enough QQing that something changed will get fixed, but guess what, it needs to get changed in the first place, EVERYONE is freaking out about hear-say at this point and its just downright sad. This is why in my game I refuse to tell people of an update until its the day of, because hear-say and misunderstanding are high.

Geotherma.2395:

Navzar.2938:

Honestly, if you really invested that much into ele and were one of the players using it long term ranger than jumping on the d/d, it’s not to bad if you stop and look at it. We’re still better off compared to the pre d/d boom time, aside from our shrinking offensive options.

Geotherma.2395:

As for the thread itself, I feel people use the term “nerf” far too much without considering the game as a whole. But since this will be locked.. my opinion doesn’t matter much here…

How do people use nerf too much? A nerf is a nerf, it’s a awakening of something. It may be good for the game as a whole, but that doesn’t make it any less of a nerf.

Because they use the term nerf in such a negative way that everything else in the thread reads “they broke the game, it is going to die, everyone should leave”. We seriously need a more neutral word for balance changes..

Rebalancing is the word that you are looking for, everyone takes any change to the game and applies the label nerf/buff when it should ALL be a “rebalancing” of skill _

I mean…to me the Mist Form, not allowing healing makes sense…if you can’t attack and can’t be attacked, why should you be able to heal/use ultilities? Did that not make sense to others? Or are the eles just sad their free heal is getting removed?

Whats sad, is that the patch notes for the 30th update isn’t even out yet, you don’t even know what is ACTUALLY happening to the Ele, and yet you are saying you are gonna quit? Please, leave the game then.

I’ve had some hate for being a “Good” Thief and being able to kill people…let alone for my postings on the forum for my Mesmer Hate and Thief love I’ve had players post Guild Requests with my Screenname and account name saying a ton of nasty things about me and more but…as the picture said, Haters gonna Hate.

Kiran.2705:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Stealth was already nerfed. This was due to an unbalanced “perma-stealth” Thief troll build. Now with that said, let’s breakdown your complaints one by one:

• Time to analyze your enemy
This is done before a Thief or Mes goes into stealth. If the target is squishy, you attack. If it’s a Guardian, you run away. Simple.

• Cooldown reduction
This was the nerf. No more perma-stealth trolling.

• Movement closing
Part of the purpose of being stealthed. You can run away or move in for a hit. Nothing wrong here.

• First strike advantage
Part of the purpose of being stealthed. You can run away or move in for a hit. Nothing wrong here.

• Untargetability
Part of the purpose of being stealthed. You can run away or move in for a hit. Nothing wrong here.

• Scouting undetected
Part of the purpose of being stealthed. You can run away or move in for a hit. Nothing wrong here.

Summary – Stealth is a part of the game. If you’re unable to come up with effective strategies to counter it, it doesn’t mean it’s unbalanced or broken. It means you need to get better. There are many ways to counter a Thief or Mes, but being that I play both, I won’t discuss them (for fear of people learning how to kill me).

Only you fail to note how “the purpose of stealth” is bad to begin with. Stealth offers too many advantages while not giving an appropriate balance of disadvantages. “The purpose of stealth” has nothing to do with it. The purpose is wrong to begin with. It’s designed to be ezmode for the stealther. All I learned from your post was that you like easy kills, you have no interest in balance(for fear of people learning how to kill you), and you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Stealth is needed for those classes depend on Stealth for the rest of their mechanics, because of their low toughness/vit they need another way to survive. If a Stealthless Thief goes agaisnt a Warrior, guess who is gonna win 9 times out of 10. Yes, you could put skill in or say that certain builds factor in, but the BASE stats is going to have the Warrior win. Mesmer has it as a cantrip, mage classes have that as another survivablity.

Complaining about how it isn’t fair when the game has classes built around that fact. I would consider my self lucky that the Devs gave you some way of hurting a stealthed character, you can’t just swing your sword in the air in other MMOs and hope that you hit something.

What the OP didn’t talk about was how the characters react to someone going stealth right in front of them, they still have the same options that the stealthed character does…the Thief just has his plan hidden until the Stealth goes away.
example:
1) Warrior sees Thief, Thief sees Warrior, Thief Stealths

2) Thief’s plan of action) Look at enemies class, determine skill, engage or run away

3) Warriors’ plan of action) Look at enemies class, determine skill, engage or run away

Whats so unfair about them having their hand covered until they play it? Thats the class feature for them to make up for their squishness.

Is this example going to fit every situation? Nope, it isn’t ment to, nor will I be able to give you the perfect example that changes your mind.

Combat is Combat, stealth will shine at certain moments and it will be horrible at certain moments, I don’t see how this is more unfair then say something like creating clones and switching with them, or some people having pets when others don’t access it to. This is more a topic of “If one person gets stealth we should all have stealth!” Which should NOT be happening in a forum of a Class-based MMO…all of that is my opinion of course but still.

Oh no, you have to do more then one rotation to kill a target now?! Ohhhh no!

Min-Maxing your character will do this to you, don’t try to play the OP thing, make a build famous and this wouldn’t happen.

FYI – I’m still doing plenty of damage on my Thief and I havnt touched Mug, figure out how thats possible.

Theifs have steal, Eles have their attunements, which should count as x4 as many weapon sets. Engineers have Kits, which should up their count even more (never played an Engineer so I’m not gonna pretend that I know their stuff :P)

Now if you want to go off just RAW weapons, then you are right, Engineers win at the sucking game, but over all Elementalists are the most flexible class to the situation, and Engineer coming up close aswell.

Lets not confuse the topic here, this isn’t about Meta-Builds, this is about over-all classes.

Thieves are fine imo. The culling update was a big enough nerf to the people that everyone was complaining about, we didn’t need the stealth change ontop of it. The mug damage change coming up will be a big deal aswell, but D/D thieves will keep Stealthing people.

Engineers doing insane amount of damage with nades is more tiresome then fighting with a stealthing Thief imo.

Guarding SM is getting to be a chore on our supply…I don’t think we will be holding it much longer :/

A few NSPs in the JP are attempting to gank everyone…from guilds TROL and AS :/

Jrunyon.3012:

Nuka Cola.8520:

I wish mystic toilet was deleted and instead all those rare and good looking skins dropped in one mega dungeon. Yes, its still RNG but you know all those skins are in one dungeon and even if you don’t get what you want you could always sell it and make a lot of money or buy the one you wanted/. Making items in mystic toilet decrease the reason to do dungeons.

How about no.

Btw, none of the skins this whole topic are about are acquired by RNG. They are specific recipes so I don’t even know why you would bring that up.

Because now a days when someone says Mystic Forge everyone freaks out about the RNG…

As a programmer, I love the RNG I think they seeded it quite well. People just don’t have luck.

Darx.9842:

Lighter.5631:

im happy that you didn’t see a guardian lost 65% of his HP in one second because of mesmer’s confusion stack

Guardian is the LAST class that should complain about confusion. Guardian has more active and passive cleansing than any other class.

If you lose that much health from confusion as a guardian you need to L2P.

Agreed
Warrior and Guardian shouldnt be taking 65% or even 50% of their HP hit in the first time…don’t Zerking build :P

Irrelevant? He used the words Backstab, which of course everyone knows is just a keyword for when you guys don’t want to point us out

Don’t be so quick to throw someone else’s post out the window, maybe if you would read it you’d know why you guys are getting nerfed.

All of you mesmers are still kittening about us Thieves? Please. We took the Culling update (which was a legit problem) and the 3s → 4s Rev debuff update fine after a few of the Forum Mesmers wanted to send us to hell because they thought it was unfair, now when the attention gets focused on Mesmers locking down ability, because honestly, thats what it is.

Yes, you are right, I could just SIT there and do nothing while you keep attacking me out of fear of a high confusion hit, or I could attempt to attack you and eat the hit but hopefully kill you before I die from your confusion stacking. Dead if I do, dead if I don’t. Attempting to remove the confusion makes me waste my heal slot for damage that I take from using it anyways. Its a cheap lockdown that the Meta has taken in because its OP, it needs to be nerfed.

BTW – to avoid backstab try dodging. The “Combo” isn’t just a one hit move, if they can stealth, run up to you and backstab in a single key press like you said, then they are the gods among us Thieves, but for most of us it goes Mug → Cloak and Dagger → Run all the way around you → Backstab

Thats a 4 step process, you are hardly immoblie and just sitting there while we attempt to do this long process. I mean…if you notice a chunk of damage and a teleporting thief you just sit there? You can…dodge, teleport, cloak (Mesmers can Stealth too! Lets not forget about the class that wants to nerf Stealth because they can’t do it as well as the Thiefs ) and many other things, I don’t play a Mesmer, you do, come up with some things to do. Thieves have to fight Thieves aswell, do we like going agaisnt our own tactics? No, but thats how the Thief will play, if you want to dishout nerfs maybe next time you will learn to expect one in return. <3

As it was said before…if that was done in private time or not, that doesn’t matter, ANET has a TON of employees, it isn’t like…OK everyone, the next update is we are gonna Update Rangers, I want EVERYONE working on Rangers, you can’t work on what you specialize in, you can only work on RANGER stuff or you will be fired…RANGER-RIFIC! (Old video reference)

ANET has a team for every topic of the game, they have a team for WvW, Jumping Puzzles, Special Events like the SAB, yes, it took a tiny bit of money to make these things, but it isn’t like ANET shutdown to only work on this and the status of their other projects just stopped…

You all complained about Thieves…I think I could get a Rabble rousing group together so we could nerf Mesmers so us Thieves atleast have company.

Wait I’m confused…I get that you spent ALOT of money on crafting this item, but the drop rate on it is so low that you arnt going to ever get it from the Dragon so you were better off crafting it…yes, I know that people put it up on the TP for 95g atm, but before the Meta-Chest update Ectos were going for 30s each, now they jumped back down to around 21s each…prices change based on demand. Once the Claw of Jormag event falls out of favor (which I believe once they add the actual dragon, they will remove the Claw of Jormag) then the price will jump back up. Yes you could had saved, but I could had saved on Snow Salt if I got it in July, but I didn’t because I didn’t think I would need it then.

This is Ajini…I love the look with the T3/T2 Gear and the TA stuff…saddly the TA stuff doesn’t have a glow to it though :/

As a programmer and game designer my self…anyone who abuses exploits (ie-bug abusing) should be banned. I worked hard on this game creating the rules and then you have the gall to attempt to cheat my system? Ban-hammer on that. (talking about my own projects here)

Anet however has a even more lax policy then I do, they warn by generally coming out and saying “If you keep abusing this bug, or are doing it an insane amount of times (Snowflake glitch) you will be removed from the game”. Then you can go onto the ban appeals and get it removed generally 90% of the time.

Wrongfully banned or not its a good policy for the players since they have the EULA at their disposal, which lets all face it, what game DOESN’T have a EULA that they can bend? You can’t (in legal-ese) define what a bug/glitch/expolit is other then “an action which breaks the rules/spirit of the game”, they can’t say “If you are caught using skill X on mob X to generate more item X then intended you will be banned for expolits!”

As the OP said, don’t bug abuse/cheat/use expolits/whatever to attempt to get ahead unless you want to run the risk of being banned. This ISN’T a conversation about wiether you know if you are abusing or not, this is people who abuse and KNOW it, don’t derail the conversation.

Ashanor.5319:

marnick.4305:

Aeonblade.8709:

The entire idea of having more than one guild kills the point of an MMO to me. It just encourages guild hopping even more, which has already been a problem in games since….well…forever.

Guild hopping is only a problem for badly managed guilds, and therefore primarily the responsibility and fault of the guild leaders. Guild hopping eventually leads to extremely successful guilds at the expense of badly run guilds.

Give people a reason to represent and they’ll do it 100%. Enforcing it won’t cut it, just as much as no one ever keeps to the speed limit (except in Germany)

It works in our guild. If you don’t represent, you either leave or get kicked. If you don’t like the rules, which you are informed about prior to joining usually.. don’t join.

This is the problem though, the Multi-Guild system was intended to allow people to join Multiple Guilds and have fun with all of them. By you guys enacting this “Rep or Leave” rule, people don’t rep the other guilds. It only gets worse when you guys actually gain membership #’s.

As a Solo-Thief, I found that I only had to get a group for a few of the WP/PoIs/Vistas…I didn’t have that big of a problem in Orr, but with that said, I used Stealth…ALOT…

…you stopped doing speed runs because you weren’t built correct, you then pick on people, because they weren’t built correctly, and you expect them to just take it? Pfft, I would have kicked your rightous kitten aswell.

Wait wait wait…you are complaining about getting free things, that are normally awarded for you killing players, because you can’t handle a little combat in World Vs World to do something that shouldnt be in World Vs World? And then going to turn it all into profit anyways? Sorry but I can’t seem to understand that. Play WvW for the badges as it was intended, not farming the JP. Doing it right, like everyone one above said, you can easily get 50+ per day without the Puzzle.

Actually…I could see a Guardian or Warrior going for Tengu…from what we have seen of them, they are heavy hitting (Knockdown) attackers with Asian (READ: Cantha/Samurai) traditions. So Swords/Greatswords I feel like would fit with them. Though I am hoping that the Assassin class makes a comeback for when the Tengu come out…so much hope.

I have a RAZER MAMBA (pre-2012 edition) and it works wonders The price tag was abit high ($120 when it first came out if I remember right) but its lasted me a good few years now with no sign of it stopping.

Actually, I mapped my dodge to the Shift key…besides from accidently linking items/skills in combat it works great for me from my time on GunZ The Duel…(Blocking was Shift there, and any sword user needed a fast pinky for it…)

So after looking into the Ranger section and seeing mainly support for that class, I see that a few devs even post their view of the class and what their favorite combos (pets) are…why doesn’t the Thief has a Dev that will stick up for us and say “I think Stealth is fine, even if its still…” or something like that…

What all have we heard about our class from the Devs aside from “Stealth Nerf in the works”?

Ignoring the time you had to transfer for free…

I’d “Guest” over to their world and just go crazy in Orr and attempt to gain as much gold as you could. Hell, even getting then converting 10-20g wouldn’t take more then a week to do, if your friends can help with the cost then thats even less. Pool your money for the sake of the group.