Guild Wars 2

Yep, 2 nights ago there was one person in the Eternal Battlegrounds channel for our server mumble, and zero in the BLs.

“We had to destroy WvW in order to save it.”

- last dev out before the fall of Anet.

TooBz.3065:

Galen Grey.4709:

if the past is any indication everyone will have no trouble acquiring a full set of ascended gear by that time.

I mean we’re one year in, can we say there is any content that requires exotic gear?

I had sometime tell me that in WvW I should increase my armor above X because of ascended weapons. This X would require 100% defensive setup. Now I don’t think it’s necessary, but perceptions are already out there that ascended weapons is changing things.

The big problem in WvW is “rallybotting”

Because of the rally on defeat mechanism, if you are undergeared or leveled, you are actually a big negative to your team. When you die you will allow a bunch of the enemy players to rally.

Already on the high tier servers guild groups are incredibly hostile to PUGs following them. Once gear becomes undeniably an advantage (close to that now), the full WoW “gearscore” mentality will come to WvW.

Hey, the Metrics!

Buttercup.5871:

Smith.1826:

Thanks for the write-up, OP. It’s nice to be able to read it in full.

On that note, it honestly just feels like one big fancy commercial.

And while we’re on the subject of posting things said by devs, my favorite piece has to be the one by Jeff Strain, “How To Create A Successful MMO”: http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

That speech was an extremely interesting read. Thank you!
Here is why:

“An MMO must deliver content at three distinct stages: the early game, which is the first twenty hours, the mid game, which is the first few hundred hours, and the late game, which is at a thousand hours and beyond.”

Now compare it against the last PAX interview, given by Colin:

http://imgur.com/a/Bk3UN

During this interview, Colin essentially explained that they made a mistake in their development of the game. He said that they had not expected players to reach the exotic tier gear so quickly, which is essentially why they introduced the ascended stat tier.

Now put 1 and 1 together. In order to fix their mistake, and remain a succesful MMO, they had to make a choice:

1) make a change to the “late game”, so that GW2 would have the necessary ingredient they considered essential for any succesful MMO. Namely, that your game should be designed such that players will reach the late stage of the game after having played it for more than 1,000 hours; or
2) distance themselves from the manifesto, and disappoint players that thought they had already reached the “late game”. In order to ease this pain, and to keep the old customer base happy, new content was promised on a 2-weekly basis, which admittedly is something no MMO to date has been able to pull off.

They had to make a very tough choice. It could well be that they made this choice based on the future. Let’s not forget that this future includes, amongst others, attracting millions of new players from Asia.

Wrong.

Having BiS gear by level 80 was intended from the beginning. In no way was it a mistake. It was a conscious decision. This is the Eurogamer quote from Johansen that is floating around.

If a mistake was made, then it was making it too easy to get to level 80 in the first place. I recall in launch week, when someone got to level 80 in 2 days via crafting, Anet called her an “exploiter” and later had to apologize. So clearly they had not expected people to level so quickly.

If that was problem, then where Ascendeds the best solution?

Short term maybe, but not long term. Best long term to solution to easy leveling is raising the level cap, and make the leveling from old level cap to new harder.

But you can’t raise the level cap 2 months after launch, so they went with the short term solution of gear grind at the current level cap.

Buttercup.5871:

Vayne.8563:

You’re right. You shouldn’t have to keep at at all…and you don’t have to keep up. There’s no reason to keep up. All the content can be done in rares, never mind exotics. The only exception is high level fractals which aren’t really casual content anyway.

MMOs need content for everyone. Saying a game is casual friendly doesn’t mean a casual should be able to do everything in the game.

As it is, a casual can still do most things in the game. There’s plenty of stuff to keep casual players busy.

What casual players shouldn’t be doing is stopping Anet from coming out with more challenging content for everyone else.

After all 90% plus of this game is casual.

Wow. I very rarely agree with Vayne. But I think Vayne is making a very, very good point here which goes to the very heart of this discussion.

What do you need ascended weapons for? Ask yourself this question, and answer it truthfully. Think about it.

You need it for very limited content that is not designed to be played by casuals. What people fail to acknowledge is that that’s ok. There can and should be content that is not designed to be bested by everyone. It’s healthy, and it gives everyone in the game something to strive for.

Let go of this concept that anyone should be able to achieve everything this game has to offer. Just let go, it’s OK.

Uh, to be able to compete in WvW?

The “casual” PvP mode.

(And if you say you can do just fine without it, then you my friend know little of WvW).

Be careful what you wish for!

My theory is exotic guild halls were planned during development. But then people complained: there’s no end game with these things!

So, rather than break the “Guild Hall Manifesto”, they pulled them for later release.

Now the choice will be run weekly time-gated Guild Missions for tokens to grind out your Ascended Guild Hall, or go the extra mile for a Legendary Guild Hall that levels up as you do.

Or, spend gems and go directly to Go.

Velkyn.5168:

What I don’t understand is why someone would willingly put rocks in the way of a healthy and lively, very motivated community in the game.

Those GvG players made their own (not so little) niche all out of nothing, because the game as such still fails to provide any features for real GvG.
But there are enough people enthusiastic enough to organize on their own, make websites for player-managed leaderboards based on good sportsmanship, lots and lots of guilds participating because THIS is the way they want to play.

It is beyond me why such a positive vibe in the playerbase is not getting any official support but rather the opposite.

Yeah, Anet’s reaction is a mystery.

But, my theory is they are sticking to their vision of WvW as “casual PvP”.

This was one of their big selling points pre-launch, that WvW was for people who thought they didn’t like PvP. (A big reason for their being no names visible to enemies). So, this attitude prevents them nurturing a hardcore scene like GvG’s.

But, is there any such thing as casual PvP? I thought there might be when WvW launched, but now I’m not so sure. But now I don’t think so.

You need to allow the dedicated layer of players to flourish.

Also, one thing to ask when people complain, is what do they really mean?

So what is the real problem with the AoE cap. Is it zerg or anti-zerg, or what?

My opinion is people hate it because it introduces randomness to PvP.

In every PvP game I’ve ever played, if there was a random element (like resists), people complained about it endlessly.

So, as suggested above, if there was a way to make the AoE cap smart, that would be a fix. That is you would always know who you would hit (or who would hit you), then the complaints would probably dry up.

The WvW devs should be given a break on this particular issue. Changes to the basic combat system, or the resources to make the current calculation are really out of their hands.

That being said, if lag starts to be a factor in huge PvE boss fights, I guarantee you it will be changed.

GavinGoodrich.1382:

Coming from a guy who’s more or less acting as a server’s personal trainer, without a guild of their own to be biased towards, this is so draining to see. The fault goes almost entirely on the fairweathers and people on the fence that just want a good classic close matchup. Unfortunately they stacked themselves into one tier to do it.

Not much anet can really do about it, except perhaps make the matches SHORTER, say 3-4 days with a break in between. 24/7 matches just don’t work as it is, when it comes to ALL their servers.

Not much Anet can do about it? Wha?

Hit the kill switch on random matches and the League. Problem solved.

Most tiers were competitive before matchups were randomized.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Kimhyuna.1035:

Why quit when you can play sPVP all day.

God i hope this is sarcasm ^^

I don’t think there is anyone willing to spvp all day .. i mean if you want ranks, go Farm in SH. if you want fights or play frogger with zergs go wvw.. if you want to stand on a point all day and run around the same circle across different maps while playing .. by all means .. go spvp and get bored out of your skull with the repetativeness.

Could be closer to the truth than intended.

According to leaked patch notes (in the video that cannot be named), Deathmatch and King of the Hill maps are coming to sPvP.

It’s possible sPvP could become the haven for non-grinding WvW’ers.

NinjaEd.3946:

champ.7021:

NinjaEd.3946:

2. Asc weapons are hardly any better than exotics. Legendaries following that same statement, because they are skins not stat bonuses. From recent updates, they are also now a QoL item because they take soo much effort to make. I play this game almost daily and I put no work on a legendary, nor do I feel weaker for not having one. You aren’t forced to get them.

I think the maths been done enough times to show that the stat difference is enough to warrant some effort to try and obtain ascended. Its not that big of a deal because you can do everything in this game in exotic, the problem is just the idea that someone with more gold than you is inherently more powerful especially when it comes to pugs where might stacking is out of your hands.

They may be better but like you said, this game can be done with exotics. Anet never balanced the dungeons around everyone having full ascended, even with the revamps of some paths I can pull a 40 pug into AC exp mode and do any path. It’s all about player skill, some thing not everyone has yet grasped.

If ascended was drastically stronger than exotics then this would be entirely different. Currently the only place that really calls for high end gear is high level fractals where trash mobs are essentially bosses on their own. But even there after a certain point your gear is meaningless because your utility outweighs your defensive stats (walls, burst healing, blocking, blind, etc). Doesn’t mean run naked, but whether you’re at 3k armor or 2.5k armor, you will get 1 shotted by that hammer dude, and possibly the legendary shaman arrow (if you add the burn). .

Ascended weapons definitely make a difference in WvW. Everyone I’ve talked to who has one says they can see a noticeable increase in damage.

This is a fundamental change to a PvP mode that launched with what was essentially a level playing field (after a short level up to 80). It will be even worse when Ascended Armor is introduced.

You can agree or disagree, but what we have now is a completely different product.

fellyn.5083:

funkylovemonkey.3097:

fellyn.5083:

funkylovemonkey.3097:

fellyn.5083:

Where did they ever say they would never add new armor tiers right from the start?

I followed news of GW2 pretty closely before it came out and I don’t remember them saying anywhere that what the game launched with as far as equipment tiers go would be what we’d have forever.

I think a lot of people assumed that would be the case because of GW1 but assumptions do not equate to broken promises.

They explained why they did what they did and it was 100% needed. All of a sudden we have use for the hundreds of thousands of low to mid level crafting materials that literally served no purpose other than leveling up crafting professions before. They also said they had no plans to add more.

I’m not seeing how it’s a problem if you’re actually interested in playing the game and aren’t impatient.

I don’t think it was an unreasonable expectation.

Colin Johanson’s now infamous quote “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”

And: "We just don’t want players to grind.”

And, Mike O’Brien from the Manifesto: "“GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs… and force you onto a grinding treadmill…”

To me, those are broken promises.

Here’s Colin last month: “You won’t see legendary armor any time soon, you will see Ascended Armor in 2013 for sure though, yes.”

Which means that not only are we getting the rest of ascended armor to craft, etc… But they already have a legendary tier in mind after ascended. We just won’t see it “soon.” So, probably not until 2014.

None of that says ‘we are not going to add a new tier of weapons and armor to the game ever, end of story’. You assumed that’s what they meant but that is no ones fault but your own for misinterpreting what they said.

We already know exactly what legendary armor will be so that’s a non issue. It’ll be the same as legendary weapons. Same strength as ascended just with fancy skins and the ability to change stats at will. Legendary gear will always be BiS.

P.S. There is very little grind required to get a set of exotic armor which is and will be more than enough to do any piece of content in the game.

At least… until they revamp more dragons. Which I’m not happy about. But that’s for a different thread.

Saying that level 80s will be able to get the best in game gear almost immediately was absolutely a call back to GW1 and is not what ascended represents. Saying there won’t be a Gear Treadmill is saying there won’t be new tiers added, plain and simple. You can quibble but I honestly don’t see how you can say that isn’t a broken promise. That’s what a Gear Treadmill is; adding more tiers.

I have no problem with exotics, I easily equipped 8 characters over the last year in full exotics. And while it’s true you can do all of the content with exotics right now, with a gear treadmill that will change.

The point is they’ve already caved to the people who want a gear treadmill once. And they’ve already added power creep by increasing the power of champions and increasing the difficulty of dragons. Once the gear-treadmill crowd gets their ascended armor they’re going to start calling for more, and eventually with the power creep in game, Exotic gear just isn’t going to cut it. Even if we’re all still level 80, eventually you’re going to need ascended or whatever tier is after that to compete in the endgame. And if you don’t get on the gear treadmill you won’t be able to participate in whatever content is going to get the Teq. treatment. Next comes the other dragons and the dungeons, then regular champions, and pretty soon all the mobs have to be updated to compensate for the increase in power we’ve experienced in gear.

And then it starts all over again. Which is not the game I signed up for.

One new tier of armor does not a gear treadmill make.

I’m not white knighting anet here. There is a lot of stuff in this game that I have issue with. Not the least of which is the new Tequatl and proposed future super dragon fights.

I just don’t see the ascended gear stuff as that big of an issue. Or an issue at all, really. People mostly completely exaggerate how “bad” it is to make an ascended weapon to make their argument seem more appealing to others.

Tier is red herring.

All they have to do is raise the level cap — which explicitly said they may do — and you have to grind your level 99 Ascendeds all over again.

Face it, by the end of 2013 GW2 will be a full gear grind MMO with Ascended Armor.

JudgeD.5673:

Ostra.3927:

Judge… your guild left the lower tier servers for one that was stacking heavily (Kaineng to TC) you are in a 1.5 tier server… of COURSE you havent seen the affect on the majority of servers this has had.

Fair enough. Granted I never said it wasn’t so, just that I have yet to see it.
Also in response to the guy from TC, I was EB for reset night, when we were getting double teamed by JQ and BG, yet we managed to retain some things even with little supply. This buff was not exactly what we were concerned with at that time.

And I described two cases where the 2x orb clearly affected the outcome of fights.

One was the unsuccessful defense of OW, where pre-buff exactly the same fight would have been even, with us probably winning. In fact, after we had scattered JQ’s first rush, one of the guild-mates said, “We got this.” But as I said above, the 2x orb buff prevented us finishing them off, and they were able to regroup.

The second was trying to finish off the end of a JQ zerg. Once again, the 2x orb buff allowed them to escape, where normally we’d be able to thin them out.

Ostra.3927:

Judge… your guild left the lower tier servers for one that was stacking heavily (Kaineng to TC) you are in a 1.5 tier server… of COURSE you havent seen the affect on the majority of servers this has had.

I’m on TC too, and I’m not sure what map or where Judge is playing, but I definitely saw the effects of the orb vs JQ Friday Night. I explained it above, also in response to Judge:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Orbs-are-OP/2888565

(Though to be fair, it appears it is at the level of 2x orb that the effect becomes really noticeable).

Why are you guys being so polite about this?

In a game where builds are directly tied to armor stats, not having crucial stat combos on the end-game gear is a colossal kitten-up.

Straight out incompetence.

JudgeD.5673:

One can also argue that having the right WvW rank/skills and killing 5 NPCs is also OP vs someone who doesn’t have the same buff, but I’ve yet to hear any complaint about this. In our current matchup with JQ/BG, either of them having an “orb” buff is not something that bothers me too much. Granted, it isn’t exactly safe to be solo in such a matchup either, since 4-5 warrior/guardian/thief players having Applied Fortitude, food buff, etc. will make short work of my engineer. Elementalists, on the other hand, are excellent roamers vs those classes.

The orb definitely had an effect on our fight vs JQ and BG.

Didn’t engage BG that much, but there were at least two fights with JQ where it was obvious the 2x orb buff they had made a difference.

The main one was defending Ogrewatch from their zerg. We had a whole kill chute made up with ACs at the entrance and around the Lord’s room. OW was defended by a sentry crew of about ten, and our zerg arrived just as JQ made it through the first line of AC’s In total numbers, they probably had about 15-20% more people than us.

Before the buff, it would have been a close fight, and we would have won. As it was, we won the first part of the engagement, and had them scattered. But, because of the buff, we just weren’t able to finish enough of them off. They were able to regroup behind the Lord’s room, and from there focus fire in the circle until they capped it.

The other fight was just engaging the back end of a JQ zerg that was somewhat scattered and running. Again, we would have been able to take down a lot of them individually. But because of the buff, many more were able to get away than before.

Also, the atmosphere in WvW was somewhat funereal. It could go either way, but, WvW could end up being something people only do because of the social ties. With Ascended meta lock-in, skill-killing orb buffs, and further competition-draining changes like the Leagues, the rational choice will be to invest much less in it.

Well said Lorelei.

WvW is turning into typical MMO PvP, which means gear grind or pay for advantage. (Or in GW2’s case, since it is B2P, a hybrid of both).

It is really unfortunate they made this choice. They could have had a permanent niche as the MMO PvP where skill was paramount. But now it is about the non-skill advantage.

Vena.8436:

Thrumdi.9216:

That just produces too much randomness — a 300 stat swing — for a PvP game.

This isn’t randomness. You’re not using the word correctly. Randomness would imply that, at arbitrary times, the server just gives the buff to someone.

This is called: being outplayed and/or outmaneuvered.

From the point of view of the individual player, the small group, or even the zerg, it is random. You have no control over when it is going to be applied to you or your opponents, or when it will be removed.

The only level at which Bloodlust could be called non-random is that of the overall server population. And only then if everyone, on all 3 BL maps, was in communication and coordinating their control of the 15 cap points.

Even in a Tier 1 server, that is basically impossible. So the behaviour you get is the same as with any very large group of people acting individually (like a city or country), the overall results are essentially going to be random.

Morrigan.2809:

I have wondered what he point of making these things account bound is.
I have absolutely no desire to craft ascended weapons- I don’t want this stuff, let me sell it to someone who wants it

Play Our Way ™

Contiguous.1345:

There’s a huge amount of negativity towards Bloodlust but really, as a game mechanic, it could be a change for the better.

Servers that realise it’s importance and have enough organisation to actually capitalise on it can take and hold the buff for extended periods. Servers that are chaotic zerg-runners will not and you’ll see the effect the OP describes.

Adapt or die. Anything that favours thinking over running around in a rabble gets my vote.

But if two or three servers are organized, and go after the buff, we’d get exactly the situation I described: the orbs changing hands quickly, frequently in the middle of the fight.

That just produces too much randomness — a 300 stat swing — for a PvP game.

I think this is the fundamental problem with the Bloodlust buff.

Not the stats, or the sPvP format, but the fact that someone can go from +150 stats to a -150 stat disadvantage in the middle of the a fight and back again. With the speed with which the cap points change hands, this can happen quite frequently.

The original orbs, protected in keeps, were not designed to change hands as much. Taking them was a long protracted affair.

Also, the degree of randomness frequent Bloodlust flipping adds is far too much for a PvP game. Some randomness is okay, but a possible swing of 300 stats in either direction during a fight is too much.

Other solutions offered: making Bloodlust buff only NPC’s, or supplies or keep walls, would also introduce far too much randomness to fights involving them.

In my opinion, the only acceptable application of Bloodlust would be directly to PPT. Controlling 3/5 cap points could put a set number of points on the board, or per turn. Alternately, controlling the cap points could act as a PPT multiplier. Control 3/5 you get +10% PPT, 4/5 +15% PPT, 5/5 +20% PPT.

Connecting Bloodlust to PPT would make the PPT game healthier, and further strengthen the importance of small groups and roamers to the overall server performance.

Tons, tons, tons of solution on these forums.

And not only solutions, GW2 has people who have played RvR games since they were created. (Most people think that’s DAoC, but it’s actually a text MUD called Darkness Falls, also by Mythic).

From this past experience people have been predicting which patches would be good, and which would be bad, and warning against the bad ones.

But as the expression goes, those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

Since spring WvW has been:

Endless Cat Tonic ftw.

The Skritt and Centaurs are too close to the Citadel, and cap points put there would be easily controlled by the home team.

They could design the whole northern part of each BL map though. There`s so much wasted space.

Vayne.8563:

Thrumdi.9216:

Vayne.8563:

Thrumdi.9216:

Vayne.8563:

Thrumdi.9216:

Vayne.8563:

Wow..all the failed MMO’s core philosophy changed and all the successful ones didn’t. How interesting. I’d be interested to know which MMOs you consider failed and which you consider successful.

Star Wars Galaxies: widely hailed as one of the most innovative MMO’s ever. Totally gutted by the New Game Enhancements which turned it from an immersive sandbox into a twitch-shooter in space.

The NGE was so bad that Sony was still apologizing for it years later. Before their last few MMO’s launched they had to assure people they learned their lesson and would not be changing games drastically a la the NGE. It had become legendary in the MMO community.

Will Ascendeds eventually have a bad a reputation as the NGE? Nothing can probably top that debacle, but I predict the next game Anet makes they will have to assure people nothing like Ascendeds is planned.

Read about SWG and the NGE here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_101/560-Blowing-Up-Galaxies

I know that story. One game does not a trend make. It’s one game, and one I knew about. But is Lotro a successful MMO? Because that’s changed drastically since it’s inception and as far as I know they’re still making money.

Nope, LOTRO did not change core systems. They built new systems on top of the old ones, without invalidating the old ones. These include Legendary Weapons and Mounted Combat.

The best example is probably Legendary Weapons. They start at Level 50, and basically they are an alternate advancement system that gives you marginal buffs to your character skills. Everyone gets a very good one for free, and after that they drop like rain all over the place. Only the very upper tier Legendaries are hard to get or expensive.

Like the OP said, is there an example of an MMO that drastically changed core systems and did not decline? The only way it seems to work is if you shut down and essentially have a relaunch. This is what FFXIV did, to apparently great success. Just throwing that out there.

Everyone that I know that played Lotro left the game because of the change to free to play and the increasing influence of the cash shop. Many people considered that a core change. It became a whole lot closer to pay to win for a lot of people. Unless you were one of the few who paid for a life time membership up front, the game’s changes were too much for many of the original players.

We had an entire cadre of Lotro players in my guild who just couldn’t play the game any more, because of the changes to what they considered to be core principles.

You might not see it that way but a there are definitely those who do.

Okay, let’s consider payment model a “core system”.

If that’s the case, haven’t you just proved my point?

That drastic changes to core systems cause MMO decline?

Sure, but the company made more money, ie was more successful when that system changed. The claim I was refuting was when someone here said that every time a company has done that the game has failed. It’s simply not true, that’s all.

I’m not saying they didn’t kitten people off and lose some players. I’m saying that they changed the core game and it didn’t cause the game to fail. I’m only answering someone’s argument, not saying that the game never lost a player over it. Their profits went up after the change, not down.

Actually, that’s not true either.

LOTRO saw an immediate boost after they went F2P for about the first year. The expansion Rise of Isengard, released during that time was their best-selling ever.

However, the next and most recent expansion, Riders of Rohan, seems to have been a major disappointment. Sales figures were never released, and there were lay-offs afterwards. This was for an iconic Middle Earth location, and an all-new game system: Mounted Combat.

I wonder if GW2 will follow the same trajectory. Initial boost after changing the core system, but long-term decline.

That’s the crux: has Anet sacrificed long-term growth for short-term retention with Ascendeds?

Vayne.8563:

Thrumdi.9216:

Vayne.8563:

Thrumdi.9216:

Vayne.8563:

Wow..all the failed MMO’s core philosophy changed and all the successful ones didn’t. How interesting. I’d be interested to know which MMOs you consider failed and which you consider successful.

Star Wars Galaxies: widely hailed as one of the most innovative MMO’s ever. Totally gutted by the New Game Enhancements which turned it from an immersive sandbox into a twitch-shooter in space.

The NGE was so bad that Sony was still apologizing for it years later. Before their last few MMO’s launched they had to assure people they learned their lesson and would not be changing games drastically a la the NGE. It had become legendary in the MMO community.

Will Ascendeds eventually have a bad a reputation as the NGE? Nothing can probably top that debacle, but I predict the next game Anet makes they will have to assure people nothing like Ascendeds is planned.

Read about SWG and the NGE here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_101/560-Blowing-Up-Galaxies

I know that story. One game does not a trend make. It’s one game, and one I knew about. But is Lotro a successful MMO? Because that’s changed drastically since it’s inception and as far as I know they’re still making money.

Nope, LOTRO did not change core systems. They built new systems on top of the old ones, without invalidating the old ones. These include Legendary Weapons and Mounted Combat.

The best example is probably Legendary Weapons. They start at Level 50, and basically they are an alternate advancement system that gives you marginal buffs to your character skills. Everyone gets a very good one for free, and after that they drop like rain all over the place. Only the very upper tier Legendaries are hard to get or expensive.

Like the OP said, is there an example of an MMO that drastically changed core systems and did not decline? The only way it seems to work is if you shut down and essentially have a relaunch. This is what FFXIV did, to apparently great success. Just throwing that out there.

Everyone that I know that played Lotro left the game because of the change to free to play and the increasing influence of the cash shop. Many people considered that a core change. It became a whole lot closer to pay to win for a lot of people. Unless you were one of the few who paid for a life time membership up front, the game’s changes were too much for many of the original players.

We had an entire cadre of Lotro players in my guild who just couldn’t play the game any more, because of the changes to what they considered to be core principles.

You might not see it that way but a there are definitely those who do.

Okay, let’s consider payment model a “core system”.

If that’s the case, haven’t you just proved my point?

That drastic changes to core systems cause MMO decline?

Abe Kleine.3568:

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

I’m placing my bets on the Bloodlust being re-patched in aboooout…. 3-5 weeks, I’ve never seen the forums explode with this much retaliation before. If they don’t change this soon they will lose MANY players. This almost feels like the outcry that microsoft fans had over the “always-online” xbox one idea before they trashed the idea after the backlash at E3. Lets hope the backlash isn’t to severe

If they patch Bloodlust, it has to be before Leagues start, as they are on record as saying there will be no changes to WvW during the 2 months of the League.

So what does that give us, a month to correct Bloodlust before it’s locked in for another two?

Vayne.8563:

Thrumdi.9216:

Vayne.8563:

Wow..all the failed MMO’s core philosophy changed and all the successful ones didn’t. How interesting. I’d be interested to know which MMOs you consider failed and which you consider successful.

Star Wars Galaxies: widely hailed as one of the most innovative MMO’s ever. Totally gutted by the New Game Enhancements which turned it from an immersive sandbox into a twitch-shooter in space.

The NGE was so bad that Sony was still apologizing for it years later. Before their last few MMO’s launched they had to assure people they learned their lesson and would not be changing games drastically a la the NGE. It had become legendary in the MMO community.

Will Ascendeds eventually have a bad a reputation as the NGE? Nothing can probably top that debacle, but I predict the next game Anet makes they will have to assure people nothing like Ascendeds is planned.

Read about SWG and the NGE here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_101/560-Blowing-Up-Galaxies

I know that story. One game does not a trend make. It’s one game, and one I knew about. But is Lotro a successful MMO? Because that’s changed drastically since it’s inception and as far as I know they’re still making money.

Nope, LOTRO did not change core systems. They built new systems on top of the old ones, without invalidating the old ones. These include Legendary Weapons and Mounted Combat.

The best example is probably Legendary Weapons. They start at Level 50, and basically they are an alternate advancement system that gives you marginal buffs to your character skills. Everyone gets a very good one for free, and after that they drop like rain all over the place. Only the very upper tier Legendaries are hard to get or expensive.

Like the OP said, is there an example of an MMO that drastically changed core systems and did not decline? The only way it seems to work is if you shut down and essentially have a relaunch. This is what FFXIV did, to apparently great success. Just throwing that out there.

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not twisting what Colin said, because we talked about the manifesto. Looking at Anet’s web page for Guild Wars 2, grind and vertical progression was barely mentioned at all. They talked about dynamic events, personal stories, and a living breathing world. That’s the main thing the game was marketed on.

If you can find 3 quotes over five years that say vertical progression….okay, you’ve found three quotes. So what? It’s three quotes over five years.

There were literally hundreds of hours talking about everything else. It’s people’s focus that make this the depth of the promise it was, not what was actually said.

By percentage, Anet talked about vertical progression very little.

No you are just making excuses, and stretching the truth to justify that excuse. As I said before, changing small things and backing out here and there is fine. But not when it goes against the core design philosophies you preached. It is if a game like WoW talked about Raiding and how important raiding is in their game and removed it a year after launch. Even if it didn’t take a lot of “percentage” of their time talking about it, it still is a major change for your core philosophy.

Regardless, it is idiotic to think importance is based on how long they talk about it. Talk about going the extra mile to defend this change.

I’m not going an extra mile to defend a change. I’m taking on people who say this is what the game was sold on. No. This may be what sold YOU on the game, but this was not what Anet PUSHED.

Again, I have a background in retail. I know what I push and what I don’t push. I know what Anet pushed. Lack of vertical progression wasn’kitten They pushed personal story. They pushed dynamic events. Those were what would have sold the game to most people.

There are a minority of people who even know what vertical progression is. Those are more likely to be people here on the forums. But the bulk of the population just sees something they think looks cool and buys it.

I’m not defending Anet adding vertical progression to the game. I’m calling out people who say this is the major thing Anet sold the game on.

Yes, this is what the game was sold on.

“Ignorance is bliss” – Vayne

Noone cares about your PR rofl, people know how to read.

People know how to read? lmao Yep. That’s why publishing companies are all doing so well and people skip quest text.

Language is all about nuance and studies show that a lot of nuance is lost on the average reader.

And there are quite a few people here who do care what I have to say. You’re not my target audience and never have been.

Of course im not your target audience.

I have brain and use it.

Seems too much for you though rofl

PR failure

READ…..MY…..SIG

I’ve read your sig many times. All is shows is that a dev stated something a long time ago and it’s since changed. That’s exactly what your sig says.

Strangely, some of us expect that from MMOs. Stuff changes all the time. I’m not sure why that would surprise an experienced MMOer like you.

Yup, i expect core philosophy to not change. All successful MMOs didnt change it.
All failed ones did.

Wow..all the failed MMO’s core philosophy changed and all the successful ones didn’t. How interesting. I’d be interested to know which MMOs you consider failed and which you consider successful.

Star Wars Galaxies: widely hailed as one of the most innovative MMO’s ever. Totally gutted by the New Game Enhancements which turned it from an immersive sandbox into a twitch-shooter in space.

The NGE was so bad that Sony was still apologizing for it years later. Before their last few MMO’s launched they had to assure people they learned their lesson and would not be changing games drastically a la the NGE. It had become legendary in the MMO community.

Will Ascendeds eventually have a bad a reputation as the NGE? Nothing can probably top that debacle, but I predict the next game Anet makes they will have to assure people nothing like Ascendeds is planned.

Read about SWG and the NGE here:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_101/560-Blowing-Up-Galaxies

The two months of League time is also an eternity in game years.

You think people are going to wait around two months for the degraded Bloodlust League play to be corrected?

Rednik.3809:

I don’t like 2 things.
1. Bloodlust lag. It’s ridiculous.
2. Guilds losing control over ppt. We can’t stop random people from dying and getting stomped over the map. Before patch this fact was insignificant, but now it’s huge point sink.

That may be true, but points for stomps is moving WvW in a more hardcore direction.

I’m sure way back before launch when WvW was being planned, they discussed points for stomps and nixed it because it really starts to reward individual or group skill (stat buff aside). And as you say, penalizes poor play.

It’s probably something that should be supported.

Instead of the BL ruins giving WvW-wide stat buffs, it would be far better if they were integrated into the objective-taking meta. This would allow GvG’ers to do their thing (same with roamers), but also make the ruins attractive to strategic players.

What this means is that the ruins would be a step, or at least an option, to be controlled on the way to taking keeps or towers.

Possible scenarios:

• controlling 3/5 points buffs all friendly NPCs
• controlling 4/5 increases default supply in camps, and for Dolyak deliveries
• controlling 5/5 buffs all doors and walls

You get the idea, and there are many other possibilities.

The buffs could be limited to the particular BL, but it might be more interesting if they were WvW-wide.

The ruins are very well done, no doubt about that. It will perfect for those who want sPvP style gameplay in WvW. That is different than typical small group WvW play, but at least it is small group play.

Under the circumstances — maps that can’t be mad bigger, and lack of priority for WvW development — that is really the best that can be hoped for.

The stat buff is not good though, and I really hope it’s changed. Making the caps PPT would be best (so they would be fought over).

Having cap a point in order to have stomps count for points is also dumb and anti-competitive.

It penalizes roamers and duelists on underpopulated servers. I wouldn’t be surprised if it does cause them to transfer to higher tiers, along with the competitive guilds.

The PPT game was already almost dead from the randomized server matchups. The Leagues will probably kill it outright.

PPT was only viable as a goal when we had tiers and putting points on the board moved you up or down. With random matchups, you have no control over this, so why bother.

The only way Bloodlust will affect this state of affairs is if it destroys GvG’s and the GvG’ers put energy and theory-crafting back into the PPT game. I doubt that will happen. More likely is that both the PPT and the GvG game will die.

Yep, and wait until you play a rank 12 server in the fun new leagues that are coming.

You going to find it fun rolling over people in zerg, small group, duel with +150 to every stat?

Then again, maybe you will.

Nikkinella.8254:

we ALL knew this would happen. There were numerous threads saying it was a bad idea, most of which were deleted. I still say bloodlust and outmanned should be swapped. They’re idiots for thinking that it would cause people to grief others to stay out of wvw because we’d want the stat boost. More people is always better than higher stats. The higher stats would atleast give us a fracking chance when we are outnumbered though. It’s not that hard of a concept to grasp. You have some hard headed people working at Anet though, they can’t admit when they’re WRONG!

Also, they their stated iteration process for Bloodlust was to throw it against the wall and see if it sticks. If logins decline, then “they have a problem”.

Why not apply the same justification to a real Outmanned buff? Throw it out there, and see if it works. If people logout because of griefing, “they have a problem”.

Really don’t see the reason why it is ok to try it for Bloodlust, and not on the Outmanned buff.

The only reason I can think of is that they are still stuck in a WvW mindset with ideas that are a year old, and have no relation to the game as it is being played. So these aren’t justifications, but excuses.

violentlycar.5267:

Thrumdi.9216:

The ruins have great art design!

Not really. I found the discordance kind of unsettling. You have a forested, hilly area right next to a place that has no grass whatsoever. These areas are next to very angular, sculpted ruins. It’s all just a mixed up mess that really messes with the general cohesion of the borderlands.

That was meant as sarcasm. Don’t most people play WvW with the graphics turned down anyways?

The ruins have great art design!

Nah, that sucks.

Who wants to win fights because of a cheesy buff?

Plus, just wait until we have to play SoR, BG or JQ in the fabulous new “League” that’s coming. It’s going to be kitten us.

Orbs of Power Part II.

The only fun thing about the Obs when they were in was the 1-2 hour fight over them on reset night. After that, they were just locked in on the winning server.

Same thing will happen here.

Did they reduce the number of mobs in WvW?

If so, seems like the “poor man’s” way of reducing downed state rallies on wildlife.

Freohr.7905:

I really love this game, I’ve burnt out sometimes and left for a while but always came back. When they first introduced Ascended items I was incredibly disappointed but – obviously – stayed around. However, slowly I’m beginning to realise… what happens after all the hamster’s in their little wheels have gotten all their Ascended weapons? ArenaNet introducing Ascended armor is the likely answer.

Then what? The issue is about trust, and I don’t trust them. I don’t trust that once the grinder’s have eaten the carrot that is Ascended items, that ArenaNet won’t then add in yet another tier in an attempt to keep them around.

Oh, they’ve said they hope that another tier won’t be added but by now I think we all realise they can’t be taken at face-value. Some on these forums would argue that because game design is a re-iterative process that their previous promises don’t matter. I refuse to accept that argument because the nature of promises is that they are supposed to be kept, not disregarded the moment they become inconvenient. But business is business, right? Something I despise but at least can understand, and so to voice my discontent I’m refusing to put money into the store.

They are so far removed from their original philosophy that it’s becoming tragic. It’ll no doubt take me a large number of months if I wanted to gear up any alts with top-end gear because I refuse to join the hamster’s in their wheels in the grind for these ascended items. I could probably go back to WoW and get the Insane title for the same amount of time it will eventually take to obtain a full set of Ascended for one character, and that’s sad.

They don’t need to add another “tier” to extend the grind.

All they need to do is raise the level cap (to avoid breaking the promise).

Then you’ll be grinding out level 99 Ascended gear (after the next expansion).

Spilluminati.3295:

What are the “Orb Bonuses” for 600 stat referring to? I am new to WvW thanks for patience but I looked it up and saw that orbs of power were removed from the game some months ago for balance reasons.

Also 5% health comes from maxed PoTM bonus amiright?

Thanks guys I’m just trying to figure out the mechanics right now not really qualified to post on the debate.

In today’s patch, the BL lakes become “ruins of power” where, if you control 3/5 cap points, you get one of the old Orb buffs (called “Bloodlust”).

MiLkZz.4789:

Mightymealworm.8409:

It is doomed, but only if you read the forums. Everyone else is in que.

A shorter queue than normal that is.

And that queue is because there is a GvG on the map.

It will be interesting to see what happens to BL queues if Bloodlust has the predicted negative impact on GvG’s.

style.6173:

People are really spending gems in order to get a new finisher for winning the league?

No they are mostly going for competition. The secondary motive is the rewards that come from winning in a competition.

Competition is fighting with and against other dedicated WvW guilds.

If Anet had addressed issues like off-peak capping, months of free transfers, and hadn’t gutted competition with the AC buff and random match-ups, low tier WvW would have been fine.

I know when we play servers like Maguuma, though they put on less PPT, their GvG’s are among the best in the game. If the problems had been corrected early, there would have been quality like that on most servers. It’s probably too late now to save low tier WvW.

Straegen.2938:

Liete.5263:

In DAoC we had character progression with RvR ranks and points. Did it discourage players from creating alts? Probanbly not. Where people who sticked to one character favoured? Yes and thats how many people liked it. You could still compete with people who played a lot (and thus had more points to spend on stats/abilities) if you sticked to one character.

Yes, yes it did. Plenty of players complained about this mainly because class and build changes came and went. Players would pour a lot of time into their class/build only to see a patch a few months down the road make them want to play something else but be faced with the daunting task of starting completely over. Giving up R8+ would be tough.

Also, older MMOs are not a particularly good guide on how to do things well. Remember harsh death penalties? How about travel time sinks that practically every MMO thought was important so players didn’t level too fast?

By far the best RvR advancement system I have seen is in Planetside 2.

All points are accumulated account wide, and then can be spent per character.

Also, many abilities overlap between characters. So if a particular gun is shared, and if you unlock it on one, it is unlocked on all.

It really seems to strike a fine balance between viability of different loadouts, and individual character advancement.

Benjamin.6235:

Hey, I got an idea. How about we have eight leagues and then move servers up and down based on their results of their games? Okay, so we have three servers so you’d have all potential match-ups in one week. Yeah, this idea might work.

Yep, 8 Leagues just might work.

In fact, you could even call them “tiers”.