Guild Wars 2

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

I agree. There are those people who won’t read and just want to play and those people will never really make it in the end game of ANY MMO.

Even in Guild Wars 1, without having one of the meta builds for Underworld no one was going to let you into their pug group. Sabway, I-way whatever the flavor of the month was, you had to have it, which meant you had to have a clue, usually by going to PVX-wiki.com if nothing else.

The same is true here. As to HoT not being any more end game than the rest of the game, Anet was clear that HOT was harder from the outset, and if that wasn’t enough, there was a beta and people were saying it.

Before you buy any product you should do a modicum of research. If you don’t, that’s on you.

I understood before HoT launched that it was meant to be more difficult end game content. Anyone who doesn’t know that isn’t paying attention and those same people would suffer in the end game of any MMO.

“End Game” in every MMO I know about is differentiated from regular content by barriers to entry. End Game is usually raids or dungeons which require multiple people. Sometimes it is gated by other requirements. It is laughable for ANYONE to insist that HoT is “end game” content.

Other MMOs also have progressive open world zones. However, their zones are generally balanced so that all level 30 zones are of similar difficulty, etc. GW2 is the only MMO I know that has level 80 zones that are WILDLY more difficult than other level 80 zones. This means that people used to playing MMOs will not (and did not) expect the huge disparity of HoT zones. This is why they should have had a better description when purchasing HoT and an in-game warning as well.

It’s like going into a restaurant that serves some food that is spicy (lvl 80). All the food that is spicy is noted by a little pepper next to the name (lvl 80 label). You’ve eaten at this restaurant before, so you know you like the level of spice in their food. But you order a new dish and put a bite in your mouth and it burns your mouth off. Now there is a description at the bottom of the menu in fine print that this dish is much spicier than the rest of the dishes on the menu, but you didn’t go out of your way to look for it because you naturally assumed that a spicy dish would be of the same level of spiciness as the others in the menu.

I love how you use words like laughable to try to denigrade people’s opinions. HoT is end game, because legendary weapons are end game and you have to play HOT to make hot legendaries. This isn’t most MMOs. This MMO didn’t even launch with raids.

HoT IS end game for the open world. Something this game has always focused on…unlike other MMOs.

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

I agree. There are those people who won’t read and just want to play and those people will never really make it in the end game of ANY MMO.

Even in Guild Wars 1, without having one of the meta builds for Underworld no one was going to let you into their pug group. Sabway, I-way whatever the flavor of the month was, you had to have it, which meant you had to have a clue, usually by going to PVX-wiki.com if nothing else.

The same is true here. As to HoT not being any more end game than the rest of the game, Anet was clear that HOT was harder from the outset, and if that wasn’t enough, there was a beta and people were saying it.

Before you buy any product you should do a modicum of research. If you don’t, that’s on you.

I understood before HoT launched that it was meant to be more difficult end game content. Anyone who doesn’t know that isn’t paying attention and those same people would suffer in the end game of any MMO.

WARIORSCHARGEING.2637:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Excellent Name.9574:

However, personal likes and dislikes aside, what is not up to debate is how devastating HoT has been to player base in all three aspects of the game: PvE, PvP and WvW.

On the contrary, people are debating that very point.

this is very true but yet their are some setting back and just watching it all and waiting to see how it all rolls out this time around . before making any jumpy moves at all . compared to last time around.

the very fact of all that fake hype and hot itself put together. well seeing some trying to become hype trains right now sure is not a good kitten idea at all to have happen .giving how hot came down and all that giving the facts there is no details as of yet from the company at all . i think it can be well said a lot of us this time are taking the next pack a whole lot more differently .than the first time around . hype=death

And a lot of us will still preorder the next expansion, regardless. I will. My wife will. In fact, I’d say a good 90% of the people in my guild will.

So maybe an extra few percent of people won’t preorder. I don’t really believe the numbers of people who won’t preorder are there, particularly if the price is cheaper and the preorder bonus is decent.

Those are are saying the original farm was not done, or no one was doing it are simply wrong. Before the engineer farm, there was almost never a time of day when that area wasn’t being farmed, and I know because I’ve done it at almost every time of day.

The ease of the engineer farm killed it, along with now so many people being in WvW. But the run itself was fine and it was being done pretty much constantly.

I also believe it would have continued to be done, if not for the engie farm> Once you break momentum for that sort of thing, it almost never recovers.

Caeledh.5437:

Vayne.8563:

If you died repeatedly before the end you need to learn the game better.

kitten.

I’ve had no problem playing any other part of the game. Without any help at all.

This particular piece of content is both poorly conceived and broken.

Adrienne – like nearly every raid boss ever – is a certifiable idiot. Even after she sees that you can break her shield, she just twirls around the room so you can do it again. And again.

Had she even a modicum of intelligence she would put her shield up and stand in a corner.

But worse than just boring and stupid, this content is ridiculously overpowered.

Vayne.8563:

Don’t run out into the middle of groups., pick them off from the edges. Use the landscape. Pull a few at a time.

Saying this you reveal that you’ve never played this content.

It’s a small enclosed room (i.e. there is no landscape) and there’s an endless swarm of mobs who go for you. Plus Adrienne whose mega attack hits you before you have any chance to dodge. And that’s the truth. Australians have a 250+ ms latency handicap and while I can cope with that in every other part of the game, her attacks seem to have a shorter delay.

Then once you’re dead, that’s it. The companions rez you but the moment you’re back up, all of those mobs plus Adrienne are on you again. I die instantly – and not just go down but fully die – without having any opportunity to move, dodge or activate any abilities.

Over and over and over and over.

In all my several decades of playing MMOs I’ve never seen a piece of content this bad. ANet should be severely embarassed to have released it.

I’m not wasting any more of my time on it and if that means I can’t progress any further in GW2, so be it.

I’ve -played the content. I was responding to the line that states “even the first white mantle ambush…”

Clearly you had problems other than the last room. The last room itself is another matter. However I’m in Australia and I have soloed it a couple of times, though I usually play with my wife.

Accusing me of not doing the content is just silly. If you want, I’ll do it with you in game and show you how it can be done. Shrugs.

Ryou.2398:

Vayne.8563:

The reason why SOME people are less “friendly” in HoT is because the content is harder and not everyone is good at typing and playing. It’s easy to type in core tyria, because you’re not as ;likely to die when you do. That has nothing to do with friendly. It has to do with the ability to communicate while in danger.

Plenty of friendly people in HOT who just don’t type well.

I did not say friendly I said toxic, perhaps you missed that part?

I didn’t miss it. But it certainly hasn’t been my experience. Of course of I’ve seen kittens, but I’ve seen far more helpful people.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Obtena.7952:

Anet has successfully decoupled gear treadmill (the reason I don’t like other games) from the ability to be successful and rewarded. They have done that by recognizing that the pablum of gear treadmill linked to progression that other MMO’s give you is NOT the only way to provide players an engaging MMO experience.

That is also wrong.

GW2 has gear treadmill because of poor balance and design. When you grind to get a full set of berserker gear, and then get into raids or high level fractals and you find yourself get kicked because you don’t have condition gear, what is that? Is that not gear treadmill?

If, in a future expansion, your next elite spec happens to rely on tank stats, or heal stats, or boon duration stats, and becoems the only meta pick for your entire profession, what can you do to not get yourself kicked, outside of grinding for a new set of stats?

Thing is, this is going to be incredibly hard for Anet to balance right, because many stat combinations overlap to achieve the same purpose. So players will simply pick whichever stat set is mathematically the best one for that given role.

In order to avoid gear treadmill in GW2, stat sets must become stagnant so that players will never need to replace them for superior combinations in the future. Alternatively, Anet can also make stat swapping free and convenient, but the fact that Anet has been willing to sacrifice game design and reward satisfaction for the sake of their economy, and the fact that they decided stat swapping should have been a privilege behind legendary grind instead of a core game mechanic, show that GW2 will very likely continue to be a gear treadmill game.

That’s not exactly successful game design.

If you have ascended gear it can be easily converted to condition gear. This treadmill doesn’t exist. I just switched three guys to condition gear without batting an eye.

The reason why SOME people are less “friendly” in HoT is because the content is harder and not everyone is good at typing and playing. It’s easy to type in core tyria, because you’re not as ;likely to die when you do. That has nothing to do with friendly. It has to do with the ability to communicate while in danger.

Plenty of friendly people in HOT who just don’t type well.

If you’re on a US server, hit me up in game. I’ve helped many many people through HoT.

DeWolfe.2174:

circuitnerd.5863:

In the recent patch to the bag farming in Lake Doric and over the years I’ve noticed an upsetting pattern of decisions made by the development team. You cannot micromanage players to how you want them to play your game. It is in fact really bad PR.

I find the “Nanny State” Anet has created as bad PR too. Especially when they sold the game as “play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play”.

Play the way you want to play has a very specific definition which was repeated over and over again. It meant everything gave you experience. If you wanted to stay in Queensdale to level to 80 you could. That’s all it ever really meant.

People simply use it to try to justify everything else. For example, it didn’t mean you could scam other players. That was not intended, even if that’s the way they wanted to play.

I wish people would stop taking this single line out of context to try to prove their points. Anet was absolutely clear about what that meant.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Actually to me, the Lake Doric engie farm was bad PR. It is the kind of thing that turns me off from MMOs in general, and I’m happy that Anet stepped in.

For me it wasn’t the engi approach to that farm that turned me off. That was just the natural consequence of the way the farm was designed. And it’s that design that ended up being bad PR.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t complete the map without that point of interest. The engie farm was making it so people didn’t want to go.

No. The path up being a pain and the farm being generally unrewarding made people unwilling to go there.

And as for PoI, no map completion element should assume there will be other players present in the future. It definitely should not assume there will be a lot of players there.

They should not have patched out engies. That was merely trying to shift the attention away from the real problem. What they should have done is to completely redesign the place.

FairyNuff.3452:

So they’ve fixed a design flaw then, like they often do in patches.

They didn’t. They treated the symptoms but left the core flaws untouched.

Okay I have no idea why you’re saying this. Prior to the engie farm, I completed Lake Doric on about 15 characters. It’s my way of “farming” for keys. I just like doing map completion.

In every single case, every one, I simply joined a farm listed in LFG, and ran to the top. There were only two times when a farm wasn’t listed. The running farm was happening pretty much constantly. The only reason it stopped was because of the engie farm.

People did the farm all the time before the engie farm.

I not only did it for the poi, but i did it to do the Lake Doric Breaking the Siege step of the LS, which I also do on multiple characters. Mind you, even during the engie farm I could do this.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Imo it’s a kitten mechanic in the first place to have to use taxiing etc. to do world events. Additionally, many argue that ‘you are in a low populated map be cause of megaservers, so you have to taxi to a map with more population’. What is this kitten? Why don’t they transport me automatically to a more populated map?

Maybe because not everyone wants to be on a more populated map.

Carighan.6758:

Vayne.8563:

It’s borderline exploit and exploits should be dealt with.

Now, I’m fine with arguing it was bad for the game. But “exploit”? Using class skills as intended?

Well, some people used them as intended and some people broke the TOS and did unattended game play which was never intended. The problem is I don’t think it was ever intended for anyone to stay in one place with turrets pretty much forever, farming while watching movies. You may think that was intended, by I don’t.

dave.5913:

Fancy pants the problem is not difficulty in finding content. Its just that I don’t like to repeat things I have already done. So if you do everything once and once only I am not finding enough content going through maps in order. I finally went to another same level area and started doing the content there to get enough XP.

There are dozens and dozens of events on each map. I doubt you’ve done or seen them all. Doing map complete doesn’t guarantee you’ve seen everything and focusing on map complete can mean you’re absolutely going to miss stuff.

Hearts are not the center of this game, dynamic events are, the orange “quests” that pop up on the map.

Every map has at least one "meta"" event, consisting of more than one dynamic event, and many other dynamic events as well.

The idea isn’t to run through map complete and run on. This game is best approached holistically. Focus more on dynamic events than anything else, except maybe for killing creatures that have high bonus experience. Use food and utility to get boosts. Use celebration boosters from daily log in rewards too.

Leveling efficiently I can get a level about once every ten minutes (or faster) just by killing mobs with high XP bonus. You should never be underleveled moving on.

Between gathering, personal story, killling mobs, event and then map completion you should easily be at level when moving on.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Cyninja.2954:

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

Wrong game, wrong forum.

Try BDO, BnS, WoW, SWToR, FFXIV, Archage, insert any number of other mainstream MMOs currently on the market.

out of those games i have played, yeah i will agree that they overall do a way better job incentivizing their gameplay. Also note that bns, wow, and ffxiv are currently out performing gw2.

like i said, i dont think gear treadmill should be gw2 answer to this problem. But it is a problem that every game must deal with and solve.

See there’s a problem with pointing out games outperforming GW 2. SWTOR has gear grind and doesn’t out perform Guild Wars 2, same with BDO and ESO.

WoW outperforms everyone because it can advertise on a level no other game can. When Guild Wars 2 has William Shatner, and Mr T in their commericals, we can add it to the same conversation. No evidence at all that WoW is where it is because of a gear treadmill as opposed to spending millions on advertising. Last I saw there was no Guild Wars movie.

Final Fantasy also does some big advertising. They advertised at Wrestlemania for example. It’s a very old, very popular franchise. It is, after all, Final Fantasy XIV. There was also a Final Fantasy movie. And I’m not convinced it’s doing better in the west, which is key. Take a game like Lineage, which is doing better than Guild Wars 2, but they brought it out in the west and it died. It’s doing better than Guild Wars 2 because it’s more popular in the east. The west more likely has less players. Blade and Soul is doing well but again, it’s also more popular in the East, where it’s made it’s name.

The fact is, out of Western MMOs, or doing well in the West. I’m convinced it would be WoW, which is in a class by itself and always has been, followed by Guild Wars 2…which didn’t make it in the East, because a gear treadmill is expected there.

It’s hard to say that Guild Wars 2 isn’t doing better in those games in the West…which is where I live and the kind of game I want to play. And apparently it’s the main target market for the game.

no, ffxiv is doing just as well in the west than in the east. it has 32 na and eu servers and 32 jp servers.

https://ffxivcensus.com/

all of wows advertising would not work if people did not want to come back. I will not claim that gw2 is great at marketing, but while im sure advertising is a factor, it is not the only factor

you talk about these games in abstract, speaking of the ones i have played, and speaking directly to how rewarding it feels to beat endgame content, they are well above gw2.

GW2 has things it does better than them, proper balance of reward, and incentives is not one of them.

this is something gw2 designers and devs need to explore. Like i said, they cant and shouldnt use those other games answers to the question, but they need to come up with something to make it feel better to do things other than farm whatever cash meta is currently the most efficient

I’m not talking about games in abstract at all. It’s factually true that there are two IPs that have very big names due to number of titles and advertising, who charge a monthly fee. You can’t say that FF XIV is doing better than Guild Wars 2 as far as playerbase in the west with any authority or if you can, I’d like to see some evidence of it. I do believe over all, east and west combined, it is doing better, but I’m not so sure it’s doing better in the west.

But I also don’t believe it was doing better a year ago, or the year before that. It has had a bit of a resurgence in the last year.

WoW has had an expansion since Heart of Thorns came out. Final Fantasy XIV has an expansion you can preorder now.

But saying these games are doing so much better…well by that standard, WOW is doing way better than Final Fantasy XIV. Yes the both have gear grind. How do you account for that difference?

It’s just a kittenumption to take any one aspect of a game and say that’s the main reason it’s doing well.

Actually to me, the Lake Doric engie farm was bad PR. It is the kind of thing that turns me off from MMOs in general, and I’m happy that Anet stepped in.

The area was designed so that the point of interest on top would be accessible when groups of people ran up the hill to centaur farm.

You can’t complete the map without that point of interest. The engie farm was making it so people didn’t want to go.

It’s borderline exploit and exploits should be dealt with.

What Anet has done was stop people who wanted to put in the least amount of effort possible to get stuff. Good for them.

I completed disagree with Sylent. I don’t find the mobs in HOT particularly annoying. Some of them can be harder, though certainly not every mob is.

And in certain events, you can get overwhelmed if you’re not careful.

To be sure you have to pay a lot more attention in HoT, but for really difficult stuff you’d have to go to instanced content.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Yakez.7561:

And about quantity. They released all of GW1 content in much denser window… Eat this.

And burned themselves out doing so. That’s why they started making GW2 in the first place.

Not sure where you got this from, but I’ve never heard it said. They had an expansion planned for Guild Wars 1, but they wanted to do things the game itself wasn’t capable of implementing, so they decided to scrap that project and do a new game instead. A game that wasn’t locked down to the limitations built into the Guild Wars 1 architecture.

That’s the reason this game came out. according to Anet. I’ve never seen anything else to suggest otherwise.

phys.7689:

Cyninja.2954:

Djinn.9245:

phys.7689:

I am not pro gear treadmill, but a lot of standard defenders of the no gear treadmill side are missing the real point of the gear treadmill, incentivizing game goals.

There are plenty of incentives for me.

Wrong game, wrong forum.

Try BDO, BnS, WoW, SWToR, FFXIV, Archage, insert any number of other mainstream MMOs currently on the market.

out of those games i have played, yeah i will agree that they overall do a way better job incentivizing their gameplay. Also note that bns, wow, and ffxiv are currently out performing gw2.

like i said, i dont think gear treadmill should be gw2 answer to this problem. But it is a problem that every game must deal with and solve.

See there’s a problem with pointing out games outperforming GW 2. SWTOR has gear grind and doesn’t out perform Guild Wars 2, same with BDO and ESO.

WoW outperforms everyone because it can advertise on a level no other game can. When Guild Wars 2 has William Shatner, and Mr T in their commericals, we can add it to the same conversation. No evidence at all that WoW is where it is because of a gear treadmill as opposed to spending millions on advertising. Last I saw there was no Guild Wars movie.

Final Fantasy also does some big advertising. They advertised at Wrestlemania for example. It’s a very old, very popular franchise. It is, after all, Final Fantasy XIV. There was also a Final Fantasy movie. And I’m not convinced it’s doing better in the west, which is key. Take a game like Lineage, which is doing better than Guild Wars 2, but they brought it out in the west and it died. It’s doing better than Guild Wars 2 because it’s more popular in the east. The west more likely has less players. Blade and Soul is doing well but again, it’s also more popular in the East, where it’s made it’s name.

The fact is, out of Western MMOs, or doing well in the West. I’m convinced it would be WoW, which is in a class by itself and always has been, followed by Guild Wars 2…which didn’t make it in the East, because a gear treadmill is expected there.

It’s hard to say that Guild Wars 2 isn’t doing better in those games in the West…which is where I live and the kind of game I want to play. And apparently it’s the main target market for the game.

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

We know that sales are down, but we also know that when games are older sales DO go down.

Launch quarter sales were also poor, which NCSoft/ArenaNet said themselves were disappointing. The population was estimated to be around 3 million at the time, up from 1 million the previous year, but they only sold around 300k boxes; 500k being generous. Since it’s all estimated however, the population could simply be much lower and down ~50% since their last official reveal years ago, so we won’t know for sure until the next expansion’s sales. Considering the leaks however – them caving and introducing one of the biggest sale items in MMOs – they’ll likely be trying hard to appeal to the masses this time.

slashlizardy.9167:

its trying to be a niche game now

ArenaNet has always been a niche however, as they’re for the gamers rather than the casual majority as seen in most MMOs. The problem is, they heavily nerfed the game during the original 2012 beta due to players face tanking enemies and likely in fear of early losses. If they would have never done that, the difficulty of the core game would have been similar to HoT, where enemies could kill you within seconds right at the start in Queensdale. Going in this direction is obviously bad for business, but if they do plan on continuing, they need to revert the core game instead of misleading players.

I guess my point is this. There is zero way to know that if every zone was flat and as easy as core, there would be know way to know or prove that the game wouldn’t be dong the same or even worse.

If downturn a year after an expansion is an industry norm, and downturn as a game ages is an industry norm, then trying to attribute any reason to a downtrun is just a guess. It’s just a case of confirmation bias.

I’m saying income being lower should be expected, because it pretty much happens across the industry on similar timetables, so trying to attaching a reason to this is not very helpful.

I wonder how many people use adrenal mushrooms to recharge their skills to break the bar twice with them.

Took me two tries to get it done for the HOPE collection I’m working on. The first time we didn’t break the bar at all and ran out of time. The second time we broke the bar twice and ended up finishing it with a minute to spare. It’s all about breaking the bar. People just need to learn.

I find it crazy that people want ever-increasing stats. I came here to get away from that. I played Guild Wars 1 because it didn’t offer that. And if that were introduced, I’m pretty sure I’d leave the game…if not right away, eventually.

Guild Wars 1 was a game where skins were what you played for, not stats. This game is the same. As it should be.

slashlizardy.9167:

Vayne.8563:

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

slashlizardy.9167:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

I didn’t play GW2 prior to HoT, and I’m fairly certain I wouldn’t have enjoyed it. But for me, HoT was a big hit! How do you reconcile that with some of the opinions on this forum?

Many (most?) of the threads complaining about HoT are from people who played GW2 before HoT like me. I really enjoyed GW2, it was the next MMO I was going to stay with long-term. When HoT was released, I was shocked. I HATED Verdant Brink. The entire experience there was horrible as I died and died – 50% of the time because I didn’t have the new Masteries. My solution was to get out of VB so I died my way across VB to Auric Basin. Auric Basin was better since it wasn’t so vertical, but many of the mobs were worse with more rapters, and adding so many more smokescales, arrowheads, etc. But while it was highly populated, AB is what saved me from quitting GW2. I eventually progressed into Tangled Depths and again was shocked: something worse than VB! I again died my way through TD in order to get to Dragon Stand. And of course there I was stymied as I couldn’t really do much of anything unless the Meta was active.

So HoT was almost a complete disaster for me. I left it after only progressing about 1/4 through the story and only returned because a couple Guildies came back and wanted to do the Story.

There’s another thread on the forums about Anet changing GW2 with extremes. HoT is a perfect example of that. If we had been introduced to the extreme vertical more gradually, and the expansion had more of a variety of maps, I would have liked it much better.

Meanwhile, TD and VB are my two favorite maps in the game by a longshot. So, you’re the developer: What do you do?

LS3 is probably a good indication of ANet’s answer to that question. It features more accessible events and a mix of vertical and flat maps. However, while I don’t mind the flat maps, I would be disappointed if the expansion didn’t feature at least a map or two that follow in the same vein as Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink. I particularly enjoyed exploring and learning these maps and I still return to them frequently.

Let’s hope the compromise is one we can both live with.

I agree I hope the next expac is one we can all live with and ENJOY!

This thread is about how HoT ruined the OP’s GW2 experience. I am relating how it ruined my experience also. If Anet hadn’t made HoT the way it is, our experiences might not have been ruined. And you would never know the difference.

I agree Djinn. If HoT had been more inclusive, instead of restrictive we wouldn’t be seeing the low sales we see now. When core was the only game for sale we had record sales, when HoT only was the game for sale, we had record lows….

Okay this is a conclusion that has no evidence to support it. We know that sales are down, but we also know that when games are older sales DO go down. So a year and a half after an expansion (particularly after a 9 month content draught) it’s likely that the game lost some players.

You’re making an assumption as to why the game lost those players, without even taking normal attrition into account.

Have you ever compared WoW subscriptions from when they launch their expansion to a year and a half after they’ve launched it.

You want to believe that enough people feel like you that you’re happy to draw the conclusion you drew. But there’s not only no way to prove that conclusion, but in fact,even if fewer people are playing specifically because of what you said, there’s still no way to say that other people haven’t come back to offset those people.

Game is doing less sales per quarter? True.

Normal for just about every single MMO a year and a half after an expansion? Also true.

Hard to say that your reason for displeasure is the reason that’s caused this.

Look at the game, its trying real hard now not be be a AAA game, its trying to be a niche game now, and because of that it will keep losing people and money.

I am looking at the game. It’s actually pretty successful for a 4.5 year old game between expansions. You’re not looking at the game. You’re looking at what you don’t like about the game.

How can you possibly deny that a year and a half after an expansion on a 4.5 year old game, income decreases?

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

slashlizardy.9167:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

I didn’t play GW2 prior to HoT, and I’m fairly certain I wouldn’t have enjoyed it. But for me, HoT was a big hit! How do you reconcile that with some of the opinions on this forum?

Many (most?) of the threads complaining about HoT are from people who played GW2 before HoT like me. I really enjoyed GW2, it was the next MMO I was going to stay with long-term. When HoT was released, I was shocked. I HATED Verdant Brink. The entire experience there was horrible as I died and died – 50% of the time because I didn’t have the new Masteries. My solution was to get out of VB so I died my way across VB to Auric Basin. Auric Basin was better since it wasn’t so vertical, but many of the mobs were worse with more rapters, and adding so many more smokescales, arrowheads, etc. But while it was highly populated, AB is what saved me from quitting GW2. I eventually progressed into Tangled Depths and again was shocked: something worse than VB! I again died my way through TD in order to get to Dragon Stand. And of course there I was stymied as I couldn’t really do much of anything unless the Meta was active.

So HoT was almost a complete disaster for me. I left it after only progressing about 1/4 through the story and only returned because a couple Guildies came back and wanted to do the Story.

There’s another thread on the forums about Anet changing GW2 with extremes. HoT is a perfect example of that. If we had been introduced to the extreme vertical more gradually, and the expansion had more of a variety of maps, I would have liked it much better.

Meanwhile, TD and VB are my two favorite maps in the game by a longshot. So, you’re the developer: What do you do?

LS3 is probably a good indication of ANet’s answer to that question. It features more accessible events and a mix of vertical and flat maps. However, while I don’t mind the flat maps, I would be disappointed if the expansion didn’t feature at least a map or two that follow in the same vein as Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink. I particularly enjoyed exploring and learning these maps and I still return to them frequently.

Let’s hope the compromise is one we can both live with.

I agree I hope the next expac is one we can all live with and ENJOY!

This thread is about how HoT ruined the OP’s GW2 experience. I am relating how it ruined my experience also. If Anet hadn’t made HoT the way it is, our experiences might not have been ruined. And you would never know the difference.

I agree Djinn. If HoT had been more inclusive, instead of restrictive we wouldn’t be seeing the low sales we see now. When core was the only game for sale we had record sales, when HoT only was the game for sale, we had record lows….

Okay this is a conclusion that has no evidence to support it. We know that sales are down, but we also know that when games are older sales DO go down. So a year and a half after an expansion (particularly after a 9 month content draught) it’s likely that the game lost some players.

You’re making an assumption as to why the game lost those players, without even taking normal attrition into account.

Have you ever compared WoW subscriptions from when they launch their expansion to a year and a half after they’ve launched it.

You want to believe that enough people feel like you that you’re happy to draw the conclusion you drew. But there’s not only no way to prove that conclusion, but in fact,even if fewer people are playing specifically because of what you said, there’s still no way to say that other people haven’t come back to offset those people.

Game is doing less sales per quarter? True.

Normal for just about every single MMO a year and a half after an expansion? Also true.

Hard to say that your reason for displeasure is the reason that’s caused this.

Djinn.9245:

slashlizardy.9167:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

I didn’t play GW2 prior to HoT, and I’m fairly certain I wouldn’t have enjoyed it. But for me, HoT was a big hit! How do you reconcile that with some of the opinions on this forum?

Many (most?) of the threads complaining about HoT are from people who played GW2 before HoT like me. I really enjoyed GW2, it was the next MMO I was going to stay with long-term. When HoT was released, I was shocked. I HATED Verdant Brink. The entire experience there was horrible as I died and died – 50% of the time because I didn’t have the new Masteries. My solution was to get out of VB so I died my way across VB to Auric Basin. Auric Basin was better since it wasn’t so vertical, but many of the mobs were worse with more rapters, and adding so many more smokescales, arrowheads, etc. But while it was highly populated, AB is what saved me from quitting GW2. I eventually progressed into Tangled Depths and again was shocked: something worse than VB! I again died my way through TD in order to get to Dragon Stand. And of course there I was stymied as I couldn’t really do much of anything unless the Meta was active.

So HoT was almost a complete disaster for me. I left it after only progressing about 1/4 through the story and only returned because a couple Guildies came back and wanted to do the Story.

There’s another thread on the forums about Anet changing GW2 with extremes. HoT is a perfect example of that. If we had been introduced to the extreme vertical more gradually, and the expansion had more of a variety of maps, I would have liked it much better.

Meanwhile, TD and VB are my two favorite maps in the game by a longshot. So, you’re the developer: What do you do?

LS3 is probably a good indication of ANet’s answer to that question. It features more accessible events and a mix of vertical and flat maps. However, while I don’t mind the flat maps, I would be disappointed if the expansion didn’t feature at least a map or two that follow in the same vein as Tangled Depths and Verdant Brink. I particularly enjoyed exploring and learning these maps and I still return to them frequently.

Let’s hope the compromise is one we can both live with.

I agree I hope the next expac is one we can all live with and ENJOY!

This thread is about how HoT ruined the OP’s GW2 experience. I am relating how it ruined my experience also. If Anet hadn’t made HoT the way it is, our experiences might not have been ruined. And you would never know the difference.

I’m sure HoT ruined the experiences of a relatively small percentage of people, while bringing back other people who raid, or people who like more complex zones and more challenging content.

The fact is, no one can say which group is bigger, which means no one can say if it was well or badly done. I think the casualties here were inevitable, and therefore acceptable.

Anet had to raise difficulty and complexity to move the game forward.

You have to do the meta. They don’t appear until the central forward camp waypoint is unlocked during the meta.

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

People need to be encouraged to try different things, otherwise they never will.

Like my Mommy? Sorry, I’m an adult and can decide to try brocolli or not. And when it comes to my entertainment, I especially don’t need someone else to decide what I should try.

You may be an adult, but it doesn’t man that you can’t be “encouraged” to try different things. This is particularly true because game landscapes are note real life and people don’t know what they like until they try it, yet many people are hesitant to leave their confort zone.

One guy in my guild hated jumping puzzles, with a passion. Complained about them frequently. That was a long time ago. Same guy now loves jumping puzzles and does then every chance he gets, just for fun. He was encouraged by mastery points to try some and found he really enjoyed one of them (the Silverwastes), which gave him the impetus to try more of them. His experience isn’t unique.

In fact, we’re often encouraged by advertising to try all sorts of stuff. Some of it works out and some of it doesn’t, but there’s nothing wrong with the attempt.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

And party play isn’t required. It’s like the temples in Orr. I can’t solo them but I don’t have to be in a party to do them either. It’s no different.

Really? No. Group events wherein most of the rewards in a given zone are found is not the same as wandering around a map trying to get HC’s, Vistas or PoI’s.

Actually this is completely untrue. Rewards in VB and TD are better doing map events than doing the meta. Therefore you have two wide, huge sprawling HOT zones you can explore.

Less people do the VB meta because the rewards for doing it are mediocre. The rewards for doing events are much better, because you get crowbars and chests are always there.

The only meta that gives you better rewards is the AB meta, and that’s almost always populated, and easy to do.

So I’m not 100% sure of your point.

Edit: DS doesn’t require you grouping either, though you might want to join a squad to take you to the active map.

I quoted you referring to Temple Events in Orr (which do contain a lot of the rewards Orr offers now that Plinx and the other farmable events were nerfed), and you respond as if I were referring to meta events in HoT? My point was that I can go to a temple meta in Orr. Even now, assuming anyone at all is on the map, people will come out of the woodwork. It’s a lot less likely that you’ll find random people following you around to PoI’s and HC’s in a HoT map unless you make overtures that Lady Rhonwyn seems to not want to make.

And yet, I’ve seen the Temple of Balthazar event fail many many many times in the Straits of Devastation, every single year since the game launched, including this one. Depends on which temple I guess.

IndigoSundown.5419:

While “small adjustments” were ANet’s announced approach to balance changes, according to complaining players, their adjustments are heavy-handed and extreme. My take is that sometimes the players are right, and sometimes it’s just the, “My favorite X is no longer top of the heap.” angst.

Perhaps the most extreme change in my mind was inviting (via the NPE) players who found it too hard to click 2-3 times to progress a heart, then offering them HoT.

Okay usually I agree with most of what you say, but this is way out of whack. What they did with the click 2-3 times thing, it was removed from level 1-10 areas. That means people had 70 levels to come to terms with clicking 3 times. The NPE affected a whole lot less than people claim it did.

There are usually three bottlenecks in game uptake that most games go through. First it has to be simple enough up front for enough people to understand. And even with the changes made, I still speak with people quite frequently who have no idea what to do. The idea of slowing down the rate at which people get new info is a sound one.

Second barrier is when people actually level and how fast they level and how interesting that process is. Again they sped up leveling to 15 to get you past the easy area faster, still without throwing too much at your too quickly. I think this is well done, even if not everyone needs it. Now obviously there are people who find the whole leveling process boring, but I don’t think that’s a problem for most of us.

The biggest hurdle in my opinion is getting people who come to a game for free to actually spend money. A lot of changes are going to be geared toward that end, because this is, after all, a business.

Before or after the NPE, the journey from Orr difficulty to HoT difficulty still has to pass through Dry Top, Silverwastes and Season 2. That’s the real issue. Not the NPE.

As for does Anet have a middle ground? Well that’s the thing. Anet tends to react very strongly to strong criticism. The stronger the criticism, the stronger they tend to react.

People complained for years about jumping in Guild Wars 1 and look what they did to us. lol

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Vayne.8563:

My answer to all of this was to find a couple of friends. 90% plus of the hot maps can be done by a group of 3.

And this is the biggest problem I have with HoT maps.

I started playing GW2 because party play wasn’t required. Yes, you could make parties, but only because you liked the closer association that gave. Dungeons were the only place were parties where required. In all other areas you could do it alone. Having others around might have made it easier and more fun, but it wasn’t required.

Fast forward to HoT: parties are mandatory to even get the hero points, let alone events or most of the personal achievements.

I don’t have a lot of friends and I don’t want to always ask their help if I want to do something in HoT. They might be doing something else or just don’t feel like going to that one area/help with that one personal story bit.

And party play isn’t required. It’s like the temples in Orr. I can’t solo them but I don’t have to be in a party to do them either. It’s no different.

Really? No. Group events wherein most of the rewards in a given zone are found is not the same as wandering around a map trying to get HC’s, Vistas or PoI’s.

Actually this is completely untrue. Rewards in VB and TD are better doing map events than doing the meta. Therefore you have two wide, huge sprawling HOT zones you can explore.

Less people do the VB meta because the rewards for doing it are mediocre. The rewards for doing events are much better, because you get crowbars and chests are always there.

The only meta that gives you better rewards is the AB meta, and that’s almost always populated, and easy to do.

So I’m not 100% sure of your point.

Edit: DS doesn’t require you grouping either, though you might want to join a squad to take you to the active map.

kdaddy.5431:

AliamRationem.5172:

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

I think it’s important for a game to have a structure that nudges players to participate in varied content, even if they sometimes do so only for the reward. “Play the way you want” sounds great as a slogan, but how long are you going to play a game where the goal is simply to gain experience to unlock everything?

Isn’t that the whole point of having alternative methods of acquiring rewards? We do achievements, play different game modes, etc. If we reduce that to simply gaining general experience, we risk making it more of a grind even while it may be more appealing to the subset of players who doesn’t enjoy the particular content in question.

Heres what changed, core GW2 had X maps to play.

Orr had all the hard content with the Temples, if you didnt like ORR there was plenty of stuff to do.

There were boss run, JP, hearts to unlock and later harder content like Triple Trouble and Teq.

HOT did not give people multiple places to play which is why everyone has something different to say. Everyone in the game had a way of playing the game and HOT can feel like there is only 1 way to play it.

Your working for “alternative methods” is what people were looking for.

That said HoT filled in what was missing for some of us. Every other map was for people who liked what you liked. Orr was nerfed due to people complaining about it, so it’s no longer a map I liked as much. There was virtually no where in the open world that really felt like a war zone.

And again I have a guild full of casuals who can do HoT. It’s not like they’re avoiding it. Sure they had help learning. But now it’s not just casuals, it’s casuals who insist they can only solo.

There are guys on this forum who used to bitterly complain about HoT, who stopped completely once I told them around a single time. That’s got to say something.

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

And I’ll spend more because I’m happy. That’s how it works.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Vayne.8563:

My answer to all of this was to find a couple of friends. 90% plus of the hot maps can be done by a group of 3.

And this is the biggest problem I have with HoT maps.

I started playing GW2 because party play wasn’t required. Yes, you could make parties, but only because you liked the closer association that gave. Dungeons were the only place were parties where required. In all other areas you could do it alone. Having others around might have made it easier and more fun, but it wasn’t required.

Fast forward to HoT: parties are mandatory to even get the hero points, let alone events or most of the personal achievements.

I don’t have a lot of friends and I don’t want to always ask their help if I want to do something in HoT. They might be doing something else or just don’t feel like going to that one area/help with that one personal story bit.

And party play isn’t required. It’s like the temples in Orr. I can’t solo them but I don’t have to be in a party to do them either. It’s no different.

kdaddy.5431:

Vayne.8563:

kdaddy.5431:

Vayne.8563:

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

As someone who mostly PvP and WvW, i dont see it as a improvement.

After paying $200 for core and HOT and spending a little bit of cash for some items because i really enjoyed Core GW2.

I think i will wait on this one.

Bunker Wars 2.000005 even more bunkers then the HOT release !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m relatively sure that if you add people who predominantly play PvP with people who predominantly WvW, they’d still be far less than people who predominantly PvE. It’s okay that some people don’t like the game. That’s fine.

The question is if most people like it or not.

HoT did make some serious missteps, though, only some of which have been corrected (in my opinion).

The mastery system, in my opinion, was not one of the serious mistakes.

I agree that its fine, heck its Anet game and you and many others enjoy it.

All im saying is it didnt have to be this way.

Instead of 3 meta maps there could of been 2, i love the DS meta even though ive only done it twice and i really like VB.

That doesnt change that Anet really screwed up PvP, WvW and casual PvE players experience with HOT. yes they fixed some of the issues later but when you charge $100 for a expansion you expect some things to be ready and nice to play out the box. Alot of players didnt like waiting 1 year for them to be able to get things that they should of got day 1.

Im just saying that GW2 could of been huge but HOT was a big step down from core GW2 and imo alot of players will wait to see the expansion before jumping in like the majority of us did last time.

Actually Anet didn’t really screw up casual PvE. I have a guild full of people who still casually PvE. It’s screwed up maybe for bad players, but not necessarily casual ones.

As for meta maps. well, you can play those maps without ever playing the meta, because most of the time I’m on them, I’m not doing the meta. The only exception to that is Dragon Stand.

But this thread is about mastery points and I don’t think they particularly screwed up anything, regardless of anything else.

kdaddy.5431:

Vayne.8563:

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

As someone who mostly PvP and WvW, i dont see it as a improvement.

After paying $200 for core and HOT and spending a little bit of cash for some items because i really enjoyed Core GW2.

I think i will wait on this one.

Bunker Wars 2.000005 even more bunkers then the HOT release !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m relatively sure that if you add people who predominantly play PvP with people who predominantly WvW, they’d still be far less than people who predominantly PvE. It’s okay that some people don’t like the game. That’s fine.

The question is if most people like it or not.

HoT did make some serious missteps, though, only some of which have been corrected (in my opinion).

The mastery system, in my opinion, was not one of the serious mistakes.

slashlizardy.9167:

AliamRationem.5172:

Vayne.8563:

And on topic, the mastery system is something I quite like as well, and I don’t think it needs much changing going forward.

I’m fine with the mastery system, but it’s not perfect. They could have avoided a lot of trouble if they had made different choices.

Basic gliding, updrafts, and bounce mushrooms are critical to navigation in HoT. They should have ensured that you receive these masteries BEFORE entering Verdant Brink for the first time.

Itzel poison lore. I hate this skill. It serves literally no purpose beyond gating content. Poor design.

Mastery points from adventures. I don’t necessarily mind gaining mastery points from these mini-games, but the games themselves I find utterly unappealing. I would have appreciated more alternatives. Too many points were locked behind these games.

I also wouldn’t have linked the post-cap experience reward (spirit shards) to the mastery system. It seems to me that gaining points that do absolutely nothing for the player is a situation to be avoided.

I really don’t think any of these choices would have killed the mastery system for those who currently enjoy it, but I think it would have made a difference to those who dislike the current system. A QoL upgrade, if you will.

Yea a QoL upgrade would be appreciated. Maybe even turn in 5 spirit shards for a Mastery Point, to allow progression again…

5 Spirit shards for a mastery point? No way. I have almost 6000 spirit shards right now. I’d have every mastery point the moment the new game launched, and herein lies the problem.

While you want something quick and painless, only doing stuff you enjoy (which would be different for everyone), if you don’t slow down progress in an expansion, a group of people, probably a large group, will play until they unlock everything and go to a different game. Those people are on the opposite end of the spectrum to you.

The problem is the faster people do their thing and leave, the less chance of them spending any money in the gem store. This is how my son’s played.

They stayed long enough to finish a legendary and they left. But while they were there, they thought nothing of spending money in the gem store. Keep in mind, they’re in their mid 20s.

So the point is, if masteries are too fast easy, they don’t end up serving the purpose for which they were created.

There are always two sets of realities…what’s good for me, and what’s good for the game. I tend to only object to things I feel are bad for the game over all. I think in general, mastery points as they are are better for the game than mastery points that you can get pretty much at will. At that point they serve no purpose at all.

Seriously, even if you only spend a couple of hours with me once, I can make HoT much much easier for you. And I’m often on at the time you’re on, assuming you’re on a US server anyway.

If you’re a decent player, you can solo 90% of HoT. I solo it all the time and I’m hardly a hard core raider, nor do I use meta builds. There are a handful of things you won’t be able to solo however. A handful of hero points and meta events. Think of the temples in Orr.

But those meta events get done at all hours of the day and night. Source? I’m in Austalia and I play all hours of the day and night myself.

If you’re on a US server, I often help people get an understanding of HOT and most of them seem to like it quite a lot aftewards.

slashlizardy.9167:

Gliding and autoloot is what made HoT bearable, and I don’t know what anet can do to top them.

Actually by itself neither of those things would have necessarily saved the game for me long term, because I love the open world, but it’s just too easy. More too easy zones would not have satisfied me.

HoT offers me something the core game doesn’t, so when I want to relax I can go to the core game, but when I want to actually play I can go to HoT.

Nothing to do with gliding or autoloot though those are great too. I love the designs of the HoT zones. I think VB and TD in particular are brilliant.

And on topic, the mastery system is something I quite like as well, and I don’t think it needs much changing going forward.

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

Agreed t his should be fixed. Basically the person who started the story has to be the last in for everything to go smoothly.

I do events all the time. I’m still not sure how anyone has no use for karma, even if you’re just getting pact mapping supplies every day with them. That’s assuming you own HOT of course.

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

I never said easy or clear. I said that what you did worked out for what you needed for the story. Period. That’s a fact. If you did the low level stuff first, the easiest to get stuff, which is what a lot of people did, then you did what you needed to do to get through the story.

How would you know? Because when you try to get through the story it tells you what you need and you’d probably do that at that time.

There are not “so many” threads complaining about this. We know what complaints are like. We see them.

There were a TON of complaints that the hero points required for unlocking your elite spec was too high and Anet changed it because of that response. There was a response that was huge about having poison lore as necessary for the story and Anet removed it almost immediately.

I’ve seen a tiny handful of threads complaining about this. I’ve also seen threads complaining about not having mounts, in much larger quantity than this.

The fact is, a few people on the forums saying this doesn’t make this a tidal wave of complaints.

It’s no more or less confusing than the rest of the game. This game has always been terrible at messaging and teaching people how to play it from day one. It’s no easier to figure out how to trait for most new players. Combo fields and break bars are barely mentioned anywhere at all. Those are real problems.

I’m not sure why the messaging in general is so bad in this game, over all, but this particular complaint, because the required masteries are so low, is a non-issue. Even if you spent all your points leveling up gliding all the way, you’d only need like 3 more points do everything else you needed for the story.

And I don’t believe I’ve met anyone who leveled nuhoch all the way up before they leveled gliding.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

You need exactly six mastery points to do the hot story. You can get six mastery points without EVER doing anything like an arcade game.

You get one mastery point for finishing the first story. It requires you train basic gliding. That means the mastery point you get is the mastery point you use. You need five more. There are more than five mastery points marked on the first map that you can get just from communing with them.

The problem with this is: you don’t know any of this, if you just started HoT. It’s not self-documented, it’s not intuitive. You just spend your available mastery points randomly. You don’t know which points are easy to get and which are impossible to reach with basic masteries.

They are all spent, when you realize for what you should have spent them in the first place. Which is probably halfway through the story. But now it’s too late to ask or to look into game documentation: the easy-to-get points are spent. Now you have to go after the tedious points to just make up for your wrong decisions.

I, for example, leveled all masteries evenly, because the first levels required the least XP and the least mastery points. My reasoning was to get the most levels with the least effort. That the first levels are the most important. And that the last levels of a mastery was only for the 24/7 power gamers as time sink. I was completely wrong. But I realized this only when it was too late and I was required to retrieve the harder mastery points. How I struggled to get them. It made me not visit HoT any more for perhaps a year.

Usually, that is the departure from the game for a player. I am still around only because I have real life friends in my guild I wanted to continue to play with, so I returned after a 2 month pause, and I returned to play mainly Fractals, not HoT.

If you start out HOT, and you don’t know anything at all, and the only thing you do is follow the story, the story itself tells you what you to do, directly. First it tells you you need to level gliding. Then it tells you you need to level jumping mushrooms. There’s zero guesswork unless you don’t bother to read the quest tracker.

And I’m talking about the minimal number of points here. Not the maximum. You need 6 points one of which you get from the story (and you get others from the story along the way). There are a couple of dozen points in each zone.

Let’s pretend someone doesn’t have a guild, refuses to look on the forums or the wiki or dulfy, doesn’t have any friends in game to ask, and doesn’t pay attention to the story… that person probably can get the four easy lock boxes which are easy to get,. and get 4 points just from those.

Yes, I get the description of what to do is not in your face. Which doesn’t make it that much of a problem even if you choose wrong.

The fact that each successive mastery requires more and more points would stop someone who can’t get points from getting higher masteries anyway. Most likely those people would end up going for the 1 point stuff, and with the exception of updraft, that’s pretty much what you need, the one point stuff.

Seriously this is a non-issue.

Edit: Even what you did, leveling all masteries evenly would have worked out to get you the masteries you needed for the story. Maybe not in the right order, but it doesn’t take a long time to train 5 masteries.

DeanBB.4268:

I forget what time of day it was, but recently I went into EotM and found a basically empty map with one third unclaimed. I did see one other person from my color out there, but that was it. I wandered around, claimed a few things, gathered a few nodes, shrugged, and moved to a borderlands map.

So yes, anecdotally, there are some dead spots in the game. But not the game as a whole.

But how many maps where there, and were you on a new map. That’s the issue with comments like it’s dead.

Even world bosses. If you get there on time or a bit late, you’re in the last overflow map. Doesn’t matter that there might be 3 other full maps, because your map is dead.

Unlike WvW, EotM uses the megaserver system. When one map fills another is created. Unless you know it was the only map, you certainly can’t say it wasn’t dead.

I was in a completely dead dragon stand map the other day. I’m sure I was one of the only people on it.

My guildies were all on a full map doing the event. I simply got there late, and I couldn’t get into the main map. There was also another map doing it as well which I couldn’t get into. That’s two full maps. But my map,…dead as a doornail.

There is playing in a group that’s good for the game and playing for the group that’s not so good.

It’s pretty clear to me that the best way to get the point of interest at the top of the centaur farm in Lake Doric, where the world boss spawns, is to run up with a group, which used to happen all the time. It’s how I completed that zone on every character before the centaur farm. it was something virtually anyone can do.

Clearly Anet did not envision the new turret short cut that the playerbase thought up and while it’s not against the rules to do it, it does change the nature of how the zone was designed…in my opinion. Though I think that design was pretty clear.

Is it possible to get that point without running up with a group? Sure it is. But it’s much much harder and everyone won’t be able to do it.

In this way the centaur farm as it stands now interferes with the original design of the map, and new players getting completion on that zone (which apparently some players like).

Unintended consequences are just that. Anet did not design that area for people to stay at the bottom with turrets.

Djinn.9245:

sorudo.9054:

a story i can’t complete because i need X mastery unlocked is exactly the reason why it’s flawed, i never heard of a single game or book that makes you do something completely unrelated to the story just to continue the story.

This is the issue I have with Mastery Points. Let’s stop doing the HoT story so I can go play some arcade games to get the MP I need to continue the story. And of course the Adventures are locked behind the Meta, so you either wait or give up and go do something else that doesn’t waste your game time. Just inane.

Yes, yes, there are other ways to get the MP. But sometimes it is a choice of 2 evils. Many of the Insights and Strongboxes are in locations that I can’t reach (specifically me, not talking about anybody else) without certain Masteries but I need MP to unlock them, etc.

You need exactly six mastery points to do the hot story. You can get six mastery points without EVER doing anything like an arcade game.

You get one mastery point for finishing the first story. It requires you train basic gliding. That means the mastery point you get is the mastery point you use. You need five more. There are more than five mastery points marked on the first map that you can get just from communing with them. Two of those are very hard to get without advanced gliding, but you still have enough commune mastery points to get to on the very first map, VB, to get all the points you need to finish the entire HoT story. So what are these games you need to do to get mastery points.

What you’re saying is you can’t five five mastery points on a map to get. And considering you get one mastery point for each chapter, every time you do a chapter, you get another. Which means once you train gliding you’d have another mastery point just doing the next story, so you don’t even need to get all of them in the zone.

So tell me, how is it you can’t complete the story without doing an unrelated arcade game? It’s far more like just leveling up. Particularly if you’re following the story it tells you the next mastery you need.

People don’t seem to realize that this isn’t the plot twist at the end. It’s had almost no build up at all. I mean for us it’s been a couple of months, but it’s not a couple of months in the story. This isn’t the climax, that’s the next episode.

It’s like people don’t realize we’re in the middle of something, not the end of it.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

Labjax.2465:

Oh and BTW, I did have a time frame a few days ago (I think it was like evening-ish on a weekday) where I was trying to do events in AB and could not find people, like at all. Taxiing was pretty much dead under that section. I tried multiple times telling people I was doing pylons in map chat… got maybe 3-4 people in total in the 20-30 minutes I tried for. Tried tagging up several times, including trying queuing up in LFG to try to get people to join me.

Was mind-boggingly dead. When I finally just gave up after it took a handful of us something like 20 minutes to activate one pylon, I peeked around in LFG and did notice that TD seemed to be at the height of its meta, so maybe that was pulling in most of the active players in HoT maps. I had no idea TD was nearing that stage when I started trying to find people for pylons though, and really no way to know, without tracking the meta somehow or going to TD myself. Plus I didn’t really want to be TD at that moment.

So I mean, dead zones are not bigfoot. They are certainly something that exists in some capacity. Granted, in the times I’ve played since I came back, that is the worst I’ve seen it when I was trying to do events.

Edit: Meant AB, not VB. Wrong initials.

The meta schedule is found on timer sights like gw2timer.com which is the one I use. It’s no different than tracking world boss events. I wouldn’t bother doing fire ele until it was going to be up. That’s just how it is.

Thing is though, in this case, I wasn’t wanting to do “whatever event other people are on now.” I wanted to do AB. And I couldn’t find people for doing AB. Being able to find somewhere in the realm of 5-10 people total, in 30+ minutes, with various attempts to get people (and some of those 5-10 trickling away… I don’t remember how many there were at every point… I just know when I gave up, there were maybe 4 of us tops and most of the time, there was no more than 2-3, including myself).

Point is, during that time-frame, the map was definitely what most people call “dead” for doing events.

If I have to wait for a meta timer on a flagship HoT map to find people to do events that are happening on that map, I’d rank that pretty much as population problems in that moment.

So I’m a bit confused by your response. I’m not sure if you’re trying to respond to what I said, or just talking about the timer as a separate thing.

That’s like saying I want to do the fire elemental when it’s not up. At any rate, I often do pylon events in AB and never had the problem you had even once. Not one single time. There was always someone around. Shrugs.