Guild Wars 2

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

The new living story is brilliant. Not just because of the story instances, but because of the concerted effort required to get to Tier 5.

It may seem like a lot of people, but it’s not actually a zerg event. Zerging each event scales them too high and makes them harder to do efficiently. Instead, you need to have people organized and communicating, going back and forth to events that need help, getting the bonus on the events (which is something new) to get more rep with the Zephyrites.

Getting lockpicks and new recipes for less geodes, plus the events that only spawn at Tier 4 and 5 (plus the bonus in geodes you receive for events) makes it a good zone to hang out in.

It’s fun to try to push the envelope and get to Tier 5 (which only happens rarely but it does happen).

By themselves none of the events are spectucular (though some are interesting) but the sum total of the result is greater than the sum of its parts.

I agree with you that the new tier system in Dry Top is a neat idea. It promotes as sense of teamwork and rewards everyone for working together. But what happens when someone new comes along and players migrate to that? What happens when a player can’t get the rewards they want because there aren’t enough people in the zone to reach the tier at which the reward is locked.

They can still get rewards though, just more slowly. Because you can still buy the stuff for geodes, it’ll just take longer. That’s the brilliance of it. And guilds can still do it. People can advertise for groups to do it. It’s group content that’s more casual than the Triple Threat, something this game needed. I’m pretty sure a group of fifty people could hit tier 3 or 4.

I agree. Sometimes less is more.

wasted.6817:

Vayne.8563:

No one suggested this was going to happen. That’s why I think PTS’s aren’t going to change much.

Karma trains existed long before EotM, but in EotM it became the alpha and omega because EotM is out of the WvW loop, no one cares about score in EotM. That’s why no one suggested it could happen. EotM just outlined the major flaw in general WvW rewards concept. That’s why PTS and EotM karma trains are 2 different issues. PTS did help, i’am sure it made EotM a better map and helped devs with design/fixing bugs etc. The karma/champ trains issue is a deeper core WvW problem, rather than a simple issue of some specific map’s design.

The time and resources Anet put it in for WvW people though was largely wasted on them, because in spite of their high praise for it (and there was), it’s become a joke. And people still blame Anet for that. No one saw it coming is my point.

It had to go live for that to develop. That’s a whole lot of wasted development time.

wasted.6817:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Also, it’s not ANet’s fault that the players turned EotM into a karma train.

In a way, it is. There is a window for exploitation/certain playstyle, made by AN, since it’s AN who designed the EotM and WvW. It’s possible that the problem lies not in the specific map design, but in the reward distribution. The problem is where AN put the rewards at. Currently it’s in “running in circles like a rat collecting champ bags”. This can be changed, but this will require AN to re-think their concept of rewards in WvW, what ppl are getting rewarded for, whole system should be somehow changed/tweaked, one way or another. It might be not easy, but, imo, it should be interesting task.

And Anet ran the test server filled with WvW guilds. People have been asking for a PTS since forever. Anet gave it to them. Saw the feedback. I was part of that test and I saw the feedback.

No one suggested this was going to happen. That’s why I think PTS’s aren’t going to change much.

The new living story is brilliant. Not just because of the story instances, but because of the concerted effort required to get to Tier 5.

It may seem like a lot of people, but it’s not actually a zerg event. Zerging each event scales them too high and makes them harder to do efficiently. Instead, you need to have people organized and communicating, going back and forth to events that need help, getting the bonus on the events (which is something new) to get more rep with the Zephyrites.

Getting lockpicks and new recipes for less geodes, plus the events that only spawn at Tier 4 and 5 (plus the bonus in geodes you receive for events) makes it a good zone to hang out in.

It’s fun to try to push the envelope and get to Tier 5 (which only happens rarely but it does happen).

By themselves none of the events are spectucular (though some are interesting) but the sum total of the result is greater than the sum of its parts.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Well, NCsoft has been avoiding on developing expansion to GW2 with ANet.

Hopefully the resent rumours and news are true, and we get an expansion…

NcSoft has been the one saying an expansion is coming. It’s Anet not saying so.

Axelwarrior.9084:

Lol, you want a total overhaul of the combat system?
Also, it’s not ANet’s fault that the players turned EotM into a karma train. They gave us a perfectly good map with interesting mechanics and we’re the ones that didn’t appreciate it enough.

I think it’s been confirmed that we won’t get an expansion, but LS season 2 is all permanent content, so I don’t really mind at all.

It has never been confirmed that we won’t get an expansion…ever. The closest thing that was said was that the kind of content you’d expect from an expansion is in the works and they haven’t decided how to deliver it yet.

Obsidian.1328:

Well…to be fair it technically is an MMORPG, it’s a persistent ‘verse. But that’s neither here nor there.

I’d say the way to get us REALLY good games, is rather to convince the average Joe to start buying great games. The trick is to prove you have a great game for ’em.

It’s not an RPG it’s a space flight sim with some RPG elements. No one is doing it. The guy is absolutely famous because of previous games he’s designed for Origin. It’s like saying Learner and Lowe could get someone to invest in their musical. Hardly a standard situation.

Most games don’t come out with an expansion after six months. I don’t even know where you’d get a figure like that. Games like WoW are usually a couple of years between expansions.

And has said they’re working on larger projects. We know now they have 20 people working on the Living Story. There are 300 people working for the company.

You think 280 people are delivering coffee to those 20?

Anet isn’t talking about an expansion at this point for business reasons. If there’s not going to be a boxed expansion, the same sorts of stuff you’d find in an expansion will find their way into a game.

Colin said IF they do a new profession it will be a heavy armor class. We know that more zones are coming. They’ve already said there will be more skills added (and they’re setting up the game to do just that).

But they also just released in China and they’re not going to put out an expansion until most of the Chinese player base is 80th level. That’s business.

Obsidian.1328:

It doesn’t have to be that way. I mean look at Star Citizen. Robertson’s initial goal was what, 500k in crowdfunding? It’s now at about 50 million. And space sims aren’t exactly mainstream.

All I’m saying is there are ways around the “meta” for bankrolling these games. I have no idea if SC will be any good, but the amount of people willing to throw money at a game that doesn’t(seem to) cater to greedy investors should tell you something.

There’s always a choice, even if that choice is don’t play any of them.

There’s not always a choice. That guy found a way to invest. He’s doing something that no one else is really doing. More power to him. What he’s not doing is making an MMORPG. It’s a very different product. And the risk he’s taking is massively extreme. There’s no guarantee it will go over well.

Anet didn’t really have that luxury. They weren’t making a space flight simulator. They were making a fantasy MMO. I’m not sure it’s the same situation.

In order for us to get REALLY good games, you’d have to convince the average Joe to stop buying mediocre games. Good luck with that.

Why do you think an expansion seems far-fetched?

Guild Wars 1 came out with titles, on the average less than every year. We were supposed to get an expansion called Utopia, but Anet canceled it to make Guild Wars 2. Utopia had already been announced. From the time it was annouced until the time Guild Wars 2 launched was more than five years without any major updates. Anet took away the expansion they promoted to make this game.

The compensation we got were a handful a skins we had to grind for, because there was nothing really else left for us to do. It was, at times, a painfully slow process.

When I came to Guild Wars 2, a lost a fortune in stuff, including elite armors, expensive minipets, some rare everlasting tonics, and a ton of other stuff.

Believe me the little bit we got in the Hall of Monuments doesn’t begin to compensate us for what we gave up to come here.

Guhracie.3419:

Bellizare.5816:

Vayne.8563:

Illysharia.7286:

TheFamster.7806:

its more like buy gems then convert them to gold to unlock them for better and faster experience.

Bingo. That’s why the system was designed, and why it’s not being changed..and why Colin isn’t piping in to say anything. This is what happens when your monetizer comes from Nexon.

That would almost make sense if they didn’t use skill points as a way to gate it. Because no matter how much you spend, you’re not buying skill points. You still have to play.

So your theory doesn’t really hold together.

Well, obviously you are not aware that you can get skill points by buying BL chests and keys.

Guessing that after an appropriate interval, you will be able to buy them directly for jewels.

I’m all for bashing on this system, but this is some tin foil hat level conspiracy theorizing. Using the fact that you have the chance to get skill scrolls from black lion chests as evidence that this system is designed to milk people for money is really weak. If anything, they’re losing money on extra character slots that people might otherwise buy. Nobody seriously buys keys in the hopes of getting a skill point out of them. That’s just absurd.

People that really want chests farm keys anyway.

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Because I live in Australia and the amount of people doing content when I was awake was limited. I had little choice but to accept the meta or never do end game instanced stuff. Not like you can take your heroes and do the Deep or Urgoz’s warren, or even the Underworld. You need a party. Finding one was really hard during off hours.5

Not to sound crass, but I don’t think that’s a good enough reason for accepting the meta. The point of GW was to do it with friends and/or guildies. It wasn’t ever meant to be a single-player experience, there’s other games for that. Nor was it meant to be a “meta” build game, although it kind of did turn into that. The blame was both with ANet’s skill creep, title hunting, and skin farming, and the community in general.

If a pseudo-MMO like GW didn’t have the population you needed to do content the way you needed to, then you have to find one that does. But dumbing down a game known for its higher learning curve and competitive pvp to better serve a casual player base is not the right answer. Just make a new game if you’re going to do that.

A good enough reason for accepting the meta? LMAO! What is this some sort of great moral dilemma of the times. I hadn’t been able to complete UW on my own. I wanted to see it. It was worth accepting the meta to see it after months of trying to find people to do it without the meta. I don’t need an excuse. I don’t need to justify my actions.

I wanted to do the content, it was the only way to get the content done. So I did it. I promise you I didn’t lose a wink of sleep over it.

Dumbing down the game wasn’t so that I’d have people to play with. It’s eight years later. These games are much more expensive to make. They’re on a much larger scale. You need more players to play them to even break even.

That’s the business reality. It’s sad that it’s the business reality but it’s like Hollywood adding more starring female roles in Lord of the Rings to attact female viewers. We don’t get to pick and choose the situation in which companies exist. If they want to make games today, any sort of ambitious MMO, you need to bank roll it, and that means you need a business plan. You have to sell that plan to investors.

What Guild Wars 2 did is what WoW did. They simplified the genre to reach a bigger target audience. In some ways Anet was remarkably successful. In some ways it was a dismal failure. But I’m not convince you’ll find anyone willing to risk a huge investment in time and money for a smaller audience.

Im Mudbone.1437:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Xenon.4537:

The design philosophy around the GW2 system vs the GW1 system was to lower the number of possible builds while simultaneously raising the number of viable builds. If you look back to GW1 and the popular builds used, there weren’t really all that many per class. Some had more than others.

Sure there were mathematically far more permutations, but an Echo Mending warrior is pretty terribad.

You must be talking about the GW pvp meta. PvE had tons of “viable” builds, if you could grasp playing outside the pvxwiki box.

Longbow Ranger is perfectly viable here. Bring one to a meta function.. and you will be shown the door based solely on weapon equipped.

Meta perception and actual viability in the big game are night and day. In any game.

Yes, I never got asked to leave a party because I wasn’t using the build of the month in PvE in Guild Wars 1…oh wait.

There were tons of players that required absolutely specific builds to participate in runs of almost all end game content, from voltaic spear farms, to the Underworld to DOA. Looking for an imbagon paragron. Looking for IWAY. These things existed. I ran into them all the time, because I enjoyed making my own builds.

Just a question here…

If you didn’t like the meta crowd in GW1, why did you bother trying to party with them?

I didn’t myself. I finished Proph with hench, solo. Finished Factions, NF and EoTN and Legendary Vanq with Hero/Hench. Finished DoA and other stuff with 7 Mercs. That did not mean I was unaware of LFG chat, speed clear LFG chat, and idiot statements like “show stones”. And I’ve had 12 years of mmo and min/maxer meta experience and observation.

ah.. oops. wasn’t addressed to me. oh bother.

But when I played Guild Wars 1, you could only bring 3 heroes, period. No way you can convince me you soloed end game content with 3 heroes.

Vayne I still play Guild Wars and you can have 7 heroes now, been that way about a year or two before GW2 came out.

Yes, thank you I know that. Let’s put it in perspective. Guild Wars 1 came out eight years ago. For the last couple of years, after most people had done everything. after they annouced Guild Wars 2 and introduced the Hall of Monuments, they added the 7 hero thing. By then most people the bulk of the early playerbase had been playing for five years.

Yes, at the end of the life of the game, they made it so you could use 7 heroes. I’m not sure how that helped me during the five years I was playing. I still had all the problems I said.

I’m not sure what you guys are arguing with me for here. They introduced 7 heroes at a time when the Guild Wars 1 population was getting so low it was much harder to find parties for stuff. I know, because I was there.

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

Look, no company with an IP is going to keep the same world and lore and change the title…

Something like “Heroes of Tyria” or “Guild Wars: The Living Story” seem far from offensive in this regard. We knew what to expect out of GW2, of course, so I don’t see an issue in really ‘driving’ it home with a title that helps reflect that.

Yes that I agree with. But if they named it that, do you really think it would have made that much of a difference in perception? Because I don’t. People would still compare it.

Illysharia.7286:

TheFamster.7806:

its more like buy gems then convert them to gold to unlock them for better and faster experience.

Bingo. That’s why the system was designed, and why it’s not being changed..and why Colin isn’t piping in to say anything. This is what happens when your monetizer comes from Nexon.

That would almost make sense if they didn’t use skill points as a way to gate it. Because no matter how much you spend, you’re not buying skill points. You still have to play.

So your theory doesn’t really hold together.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

kitten Vayne, Merc pack released AFTER 7 Hero update. 7 heroes Oct 2010, mercs march 2011. There was NEVER a 3 mercenary limit. You got the number you paid for and could use 7 from the day they were introduced.

If you did all that.. at the dates they released, how did you not know about 7 heroes at least for Winds of Change in July 2011?

SMH

Because it was like years ago? You didn’t need the merc pack to use 7 heroes then. But I was done with the game, and everything in it except Guild Wars Beyond.

In other words, I’d already done FoW, the Underworld, DOA, The Deep, Urgoz’s Warren before the 7 hero update. That’s how I wouldn’t remember.

I also played a lot of the newer content with my guild at the time, so there were usually at least two people.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Xenon.4537:

The design philosophy around the GW2 system vs the GW1 system was to lower the number of possible builds while simultaneously raising the number of viable builds. If you look back to GW1 and the popular builds used, there weren’t really all that many per class. Some had more than others.

Sure there were mathematically far more permutations, but an Echo Mending warrior is pretty terribad.

You must be talking about the GW pvp meta. PvE had tons of “viable” builds, if you could grasp playing outside the pvxwiki box.

Longbow Ranger is perfectly viable here. Bring one to a meta function.. and you will be shown the door based solely on weapon equipped.

Meta perception and actual viability in the big game are night and day. In any game.

Yes, I never got asked to leave a party because I wasn’t using the build of the month in PvE in Guild Wars 1…oh wait.

There were tons of players that required absolutely specific builds to participate in runs of almost all end game content, from voltaic spear farms, to the Underworld to DOA. Looking for an imbagon paragron. Looking for IWAY. These things existed. I ran into them all the time, because I enjoyed making my own builds.

Just a question here…

If you didn’t like the meta crowd in GW1, why did you bother trying to party with them?

I didn’t myself. I finished Proph with hench, solo. Finished Factions, NF and EoTN and Legendary Vanq with Hero/Hench. Finished DoA and other stuff with 7 Mercs. That did not mean I was unaware of LFG chat, speed clear LFG chat, and idiot statements like “show stones”. And I’ve had 12 years of mmo and min/maxer meta experience and observation.

ah.. oops. wasn’t addressed to me. oh bother.

But when I played Guild Wars 1, you could only bring 3 heroes, period. No way you can convince me you soloed end game content with 3 heroes.

Ha ha. See 8 pack of mercenaries. And so, I did, with 7 heroes. Old news as well.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mercenary_Hero

Mercenaries weren’t introduced until rather late in the game’s life, long after I’d stopped playing seriously. By the time they came out I already had 50/50 and GWAMM. And even when they first came out, you could still only take three of them.

Now the game as changed, persumably because of lower population, that you can take 7 heroes. In the old days you could take only three heroes, and henchmen couldn’t enter elite areas.

Uh, they came in like 3 years ago at least. Long before the launch of this game. You could buy 8 from day one of the introduction of mercs, they were never limited to 3.

7 hero update was Oct 2010. Apparently you didn’t do WiK, WoC, Hearts of the North either.

Study harder next time before inferring that I’m a liar.

First of all the word is implying, not inferring. You’re inferring something I never implied.

You could always buy an 8 mercenary pack from the moment they came out> They worked jsut like heroes. You could have 8 mercenaries butyou could only pick 3 of them. I know this because I bought the 8 mercenary pack when it came out. You could only use 3 until the 7 hero update.

I did all the content in Guild Wars 1, including WiK, Hearts of the North and Winds of Change.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Xenon.4537:

The design philosophy around the GW2 system vs the GW1 system was to lower the number of possible builds while simultaneously raising the number of viable builds. If you look back to GW1 and the popular builds used, there weren’t really all that many per class. Some had more than others.

Sure there were mathematically far more permutations, but an Echo Mending warrior is pretty terribad.

You must be talking about the GW pvp meta. PvE had tons of “viable” builds, if you could grasp playing outside the pvxwiki box.

Longbow Ranger is perfectly viable here. Bring one to a meta function.. and you will be shown the door based solely on weapon equipped.

Meta perception and actual viability in the big game are night and day. In any game.

Yes, I never got asked to leave a party because I wasn’t using the build of the month in PvE in Guild Wars 1…oh wait.

There were tons of players that required absolutely specific builds to participate in runs of almost all end game content, from voltaic spear farms, to the Underworld to DOA. Looking for an imbagon paragron. Looking for IWAY. These things existed. I ran into them all the time, because I enjoyed making my own builds.

Just a question here…

If you didn’t like the meta crowd in GW1, why did you bother trying to party with them?

I didn’t myself. I finished Proph with hench, solo. Finished Factions, NF and EoTN and Legendary Vanq with Hero/Hench. Finished DoA and other stuff with 7 Mercs. That did not mean I was unaware of LFG chat, speed clear LFG chat, and idiot statements like “show stones”. And I’ve had 12 years of mmo and min/maxer meta experience and observation.

ah.. oops. wasn’t addressed to me. oh bother.

But when I played Guild Wars 1, you could only bring 3 heroes, period. No way you can convince me you soloed end game content with 3 heroes.

Ha ha. See 8 pack of mercenaries. And so, I did, with 7 heroes. Old news as well.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mercenary_Hero

Mercenaries weren’t introduced until rather late in the game’s life, long after I’d stopped playing seriously. By the time they came out I already had 50/50 and GWAMM. And even when they first came out, you could still only take three of them.

Now the game as changed, persumably because of lower population, that you can take 7 heroes. In the old days you could take only three heroes, and henchmen couldn’t enter elite areas.

Mungrul.9358:

Vayne.8563:

In the future, stay on the topic instead of trying to make comments about the person posting.

Then I suggest you stop with ill-conceived drive-by one-liners when trying to discredit someone who has demonstrably proved their point.
I took your laughable gold-farming comment and countered it, quite effectively. Your only remit then was to imply that I was attacking you. To me, it looks like you’re the troll here.

Look, people buy stuff with gems ALL THE TIME. They spend gold on gems. Just because you don’t or can’t doesn’t make you right. However, because you decided to start off your post by singling me out with a personal attack, I don’t feel you deserve any serious consideration. Next time, keep it to the topic and you’ll get an answer. If you insist on trying to discredit people based on your own perception of them…shrugs.

It’s your issue not mine.

Mungrul.9358:

Vayne.8563:

And you don’t really deserve any kind of answer for trying to imply what you’re implying.

I wasn’t looking for an answer, I was saying things how I see them.
Further input from you was not required.

Sure it was, if you’re going to try to dismiss anything I say by painting me as a person who supports everything Anet does which is demonstrably untrue. Painting a false picture of another person always deserves a response. In the future, stay on the topic instead of trying to make comments about the person posting.

Mungrul.9358:

Vayne.8563:

Except that you can farm gold to pay for everything in the gem store, and people do.

Vayne, please stop. When every post you make consists of blind devotion to GW2, people eventually stop taking you seriously.

Personally I know it’s not the case, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of the regulars here thought you were a plant.

And besides all this, I have in the past proven that past a certain point, thanks to the ever escalating inflation inherent to the Guild Wars 2 “Economy”, at some point farming for gold will no longer be an attractive option.
Since I last posted about this, the amount of gold you can buy with 100 gems has almost doubled. And seeing as how that observation is only 6 months old, this is worrying.
In January, 100 gems would buy you ~4G80S. Today those 100 gems will buy you ~9G30S.

If you believe that players can influence the economy and that it’s on your side, you’re sorely mistaken.
It’s clearly designed to make buying gems with cash more attractive over time.

Put it this way:
200 gems will buy you a piece of tier 3 armour. As the gems-to-gold value has doubled in 6 months, I think we can safely say that in another year’s time, those same 200 gems will probably buy you almost, if not a complete set of tier 3.
I think when faced with the prospect of grinding out 120G for a full set versus spending $2.50, most players won’t have the willpower to avoid doing the latter.
And this will only become more attractive as the gem to gold rate increases over time.

This is just one example.

You may very well be on ArenaNet’s side, but they couldn’t give a fig about you.

Stop trying to discredit what I say by pointing out the stuff I say that supports Anet, while ignoring the stuff I say that doesn’t. It doesn’t make your arguments stronger.

Even on the first page, there are points I’ve made where Anet has done things wrong and overcompensated. Things I don’t agree with. Therefore, not agreeing with you doesn’t make me mindless or a fan boy.

And you don’t really deserve any kind of answer for trying to imply what you’re implying.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Xenon.4537:

The design philosophy around the GW2 system vs the GW1 system was to lower the number of possible builds while simultaneously raising the number of viable builds. If you look back to GW1 and the popular builds used, there weren’t really all that many per class. Some had more than others.

Sure there were mathematically far more permutations, but an Echo Mending warrior is pretty terribad.

You must be talking about the GW pvp meta. PvE had tons of “viable” builds, if you could grasp playing outside the pvxwiki box.

Longbow Ranger is perfectly viable here. Bring one to a meta function.. and you will be shown the door based solely on weapon equipped.

Meta perception and actual viability in the big game are night and day. In any game.

Yes, I never got asked to leave a party because I wasn’t using the build of the month in PvE in Guild Wars 1…oh wait.

There were tons of players that required absolutely specific builds to participate in runs of almost all end game content, from voltaic spear farms, to the Underworld to DOA. Looking for an imbagon paragron. Looking for IWAY. These things existed. I ran into them all the time, because I enjoyed making my own builds.

Just a question here…

If you didn’t like the meta crowd in GW1, why did you bother trying to party with them?

I didn’t myself. I finished Proph with hench, solo. Finished Factions, NF and EoTN and Legendary Vanq with Hero/Hench. Finished DoA and other stuff with 7 Mercs. That did not mean I was unaware of LFG chat, speed clear LFG chat, and idiot statements like “show stones”. And I’ve had 12 years of mmo and min/maxer meta experience and observation.

ah.. oops. wasn’t addressed to me. oh bother.

But when I played Guild Wars 1, you could only bring 3 heroes, period. No way you can convince me you soloed end game content with 3 heroes.

Blue Magnolia.5207:

If GW2 had fewer skills for better balance though, why isn’t it balanced? There is still a meta with professions that are thrown to the wayside in certain aspects of the game.

No game is ever balanced. But it’s balanced a lot better than Guild Wars 1 was for most of it’s life.

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Xenon.4537:

The design philosophy around the GW2 system vs the GW1 system was to lower the number of possible builds while simultaneously raising the number of viable builds. If you look back to GW1 and the popular builds used, there weren’t really all that many per class. Some had more than others.

Sure there were mathematically far more permutations, but an Echo Mending warrior is pretty terribad.

You must be talking about the GW pvp meta. PvE had tons of “viable” builds, if you could grasp playing outside the pvxwiki box.

Longbow Ranger is perfectly viable here. Bring one to a meta function.. and you will be shown the door based solely on weapon equipped.

Meta perception and actual viability in the big game are night and day. In any game.

Yes, I never got asked to leave a party because I wasn’t using the build of the month in PvE in Guild Wars 1…oh wait.

There were tons of players that required absolutely specific builds to participate in runs of almost all end game content, from voltaic spear farms, to the Underworld to DOA. Looking for an imbagon paragron. Looking for IWAY. These things existed. I ran into them all the time, because I enjoyed making my own builds.

Just a question here…

If you didn’t like the meta crowd in GW1, why did you bother trying to party with them?

Because I live in Australia and the amount of people doing content when I was awake was limited. I had little choice but to accept the meta or never do end game instanced stuff. Not like you can take your heroes and do the Deep or Urgoz’s warren, or even the Underworld. You need a party. Finding one was really hard during off hours.5

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Xenon.4537:

The design philosophy around the GW2 system vs the GW1 system was to lower the number of possible builds while simultaneously raising the number of viable builds. If you look back to GW1 and the popular builds used, there weren’t really all that many per class. Some had more than others.

Sure there were mathematically far more permutations, but an Echo Mending warrior is pretty terribad.

You must be talking about the GW pvp meta. PvE had tons of “viable” builds, if you could grasp playing outside the pvxwiki box.

Longbow Ranger is perfectly viable here. Bring one to a meta function.. and you will be shown the door based solely on weapon equipped.

Meta perception and actual viability in the big game are night and day. In any game.

Yes, I never got asked to leave a party because I wasn’t using the build of the month in PvE in Guild Wars 1…oh wait.

There were tons of players that required absolutely specific builds to participate in runs of almost all end game content, from voltaic spear farms, to the Underworld to DOA. Looking for an imbagon paragron. Looking for IWAY. These things existed. I ran into them all the time, because I enjoyed making my own builds.

You missed the part where I stated “In any Game?” At no time did I state that GW was immune to the meta/min max mindset. Pulling up templates deemed the only “viable” build by that subset is not representative. From any game, whether it be meta builds, meta gear, meta AA builds or supposed meta classes.

Well that’s the thing, when you remove the meta mindset from Guild Wars 2 there are more viable builds and things you can play around with. I know because I have with my guild. It’s definitely not nearly as much as Guild Wars 2, but then Guild Wars 1 had some crazy stuff, including Imbagon, spirit spammers, 600 monks, sabway, nornbear builds that were so OP it was silly. Just the fact that rits could solofarm the underworld for ectos was ridiculous. Even 55 monks were silly in the areas where they could function.

So that’s the other side of having too much variety. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have enough skills and builds to play with, but Guild Wars 1 had far too many.

If it ends up being in chat, it shouldn’t be in map chat. It should have it’s own channel which you can check in out out of any channel to remove it if you don’t want to see it.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Xenon.4537:

The design philosophy around the GW2 system vs the GW1 system was to lower the number of possible builds while simultaneously raising the number of viable builds. If you look back to GW1 and the popular builds used, there weren’t really all that many per class. Some had more than others.

Sure there were mathematically far more permutations, but an Echo Mending warrior is pretty terribad.

You must be talking about the GW pvp meta. PvE had tons of “viable” builds, if you could grasp playing outside the pvxwiki box.

Longbow Ranger is perfectly viable here. Bring one to a meta function.. and you will be shown the door based solely on weapon equipped.

Meta perception and actual viability in the big game are night and day. In any game.

Yes, I never got asked to leave a party because I wasn’t using the build of the month in PvE in Guild Wars 1…oh wait.

There were tons of players that required absolutely specific builds to participate in runs of almost all end game content, from voltaic spear farms, to the Underworld to DOA. Looking for an imbagon paragron. Looking for IWAY. These things existed. I ran into them all the time, because I enjoyed making my own builds.

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Okay I’ll take it step by step. Guild Wars 1 remained a niche game because a lot of people left the game because it was too hard to make builds and not everyone runs to a wiki to play games. That’s pretty much a given. I know people personally who tried the game and couldn’t cope.

Guild Wars 2 attempts to create an easier entry for people and keep them playing. It’s okay with a game that has a lower budget and 50 devs to lose people rather quickly but Guild Wars 2 is going to need to keep some players longer term. And yes I know the doom and gloom crowd think no one is playing but that’s what’s said about every MMO.

So Anet makes a world with easier content for longer to get people who maybe don’t pick up things quite as quickly to hang around for a while. See there are people that are good, people that are bad, and people that are bad but can improve. But they can’t improve if they don’t stick around.

A lot of people aren’t going to die repeatedly and stick around, even if some resilient people can do that. They’ll go play another game where the open world is more friendly.

So Anet created a friendly open world with friendly builds, which means less options. As I said earlier, I believe they overcompensated. They have a history of doing so.

But if you add more skills to start, you can’t take them away later. They added less skills and over the course of time might very well add more.

In the mean time, more people can just pick up the game and play. Having less options is part of what makes that possible. Having too many build options isn’t welcoming to newcomers.

That’s why so many people have trouble getting into SPvP. Too many options all at once.

Really?

So not only are you saying having fewer options is better than more options, but that easier is better than hard?

And people wonder why kids these days are soft.

Well, there’s a whole lot of reasons why the younger generation is different from the older generation. We put up with a huge amount of stupidity in games many years ago because there weren’t as many games. The actual amount of entertainment available to us these days is many times greater. Games come out faster. Entire TV series can be watched all at once. It’s a different world. So when a game is not as easy to get into in the front end, there’s no guarantee someone is going to stay with it long enough to get better at it.

My argument is that a game needs to be approachable. Guild Wars 2 is, in some ways not all, far more approachable than Guild Wars 1. But there are always was I feel Anet has dropped the ball and that Guild Wars 1 was more approachable than Guild Wars 2. I don’t feel they’ve done a great job of explaining the game.

Draaq Cz.9642:

GW1 had for sure better cinematics and the overall effect was far better than in GW2 but they wanted to do new style, time pressured them so they came up with this GW2 face 2 face model – simple, less time consuming, easy to make.

If it downgrades GW2? Yes. I´ve skipped all those because it´s just horrible to watch face2face boring cinematic. Well on the other hand, more time while actual gameplay :-D
You can´t compare GW1 cinematics and GW2´s. It´s like comparing the king and his infant son, yet prince, still sucking milk.
GW2 has great graphics, holiday events. If it is not enough… another story

I guess you’re talking about the old cinematics from launch rather than any of the new stuff.

First, it’s an event made for preorganized groups. Some of that content is okay. Nothing stops you from joining those groups.

More to the point, showing up in time will guarantee you fail. You need to be at that event an hour or so before it starts to get on one of the organized servers.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Well, sorry Vayne, but ‘stating something doesn’t make it true’.
Moreover, I’ve read enough posts of yours to realize you’re actually in love with either the game or the company. Or both.

P.S. Try re-reading my quotes, they offer plenty of reasons against dumbing things down.

But the player base is getting better, which surely contradicts at least some of your points, and you have no answer for it. Presumably you’re not even playing these days, so how would you know?

What correlation you see between a palyerbase ‘improving’ and lack of build diversity is beyond me. If anything, it speaks in favour of giving them more GW-like building freedom, doesn’kitten

Okay I’ll take it step by step. Guild Wars 1 remained a niche game because a lot of people left the game because it was too hard to make builds and not everyone runs to a wiki to play games. That’s pretty much a given. I know people personally who tried the game and couldn’t cope.

Guild Wars 2 attempts to create an easier entry for people and keep them playing. It’s okay with a game that has a lower budget and 50 devs to lose people rather quickly but Guild Wars 2 is going to need to keep some players longer term. And yes I know the doom and gloom crowd think no one is playing but that’s what’s said about every MMO.

So Anet makes a world with easier content for longer to get people who maybe don’t pick up things quite as quickly to hang around for a while. See there are people that are good, people that are bad, and people that are bad but can improve. But they can’t improve if they don’t stick around.

A lot of people aren’t going to die repeatedly and stick around, even if some resilient people can do that. They’ll go play another game where the open world is more friendly.

So Anet created a friendly open world with friendly builds, which means less options. As I said earlier, I believe they overcompensated. They have a history of doing so.

But if you add more skills to start, you can’t take them away later. They added less skills and over the course of time might very well add more.

In the mean time, more people can just pick up the game and play. Having less options is part of what makes that possible. Having too many build options isn’t welcoming to newcomers.

That’s why so many people have trouble getting into SPvP. Too many options all at once.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

I would just like to say on record the percentages Vayne mentioned were pulled out of thin air, therefore meaningless. I hope this clarifies any mislead readers.

Thank you for your time.

They weren’t hard and fast percentage it’s called an example. There was nothing in that post that should have made anyone think they were supossed to represent actual numbers. Most people reading this would have understood that. Thanks for clarifying it further for those who didn’t get it.

Yep, just to reiterate, the numbers are meaningless so the example is also meaningless…meaning it means absolutely nothing.
Using a meaningless example to support an argument is meaningless.

Okay so let me rephrase so that even people who want to argue for the sake of arguing can understand it too. It’s well known, not little known, well known, the most people don’t end up doing the hardest content in any MMO. Recently the devs of Lotro said only a tiny percent of people ever finish their raids. It’s pretty well known that there are more casual players of MMOs that originally thought. Feel free to find something to contest these concepts.

The amount of hard core players doing the hardest PvE is a minority in most games. There are surely more casual players playing these games. Therefore, the exact percentage, whatever it is, still indicated a clear majority of casual players who don’t finish hard end game content.

That being the case, Anet is smarter to cater first and foremost to the majority.

Now if you have any actual evidence against this, I’m sure we’d all love to hear it.

KarlaGrey.5903:

You never had one to start with (or rather, admitted you agreed with mine and other users’ point – that GW1 is more diverse). The rest is just random whiteknighting for the sake of it.

I’m sorry are you saying that saying there’s a reason there is less build diversity is off topic? That’s whiteknighting? You must be awfully desperate to win an argument if that’s all you can come up with to defend your point.

I think that Anet was smart to simplify the build system in this game. They took it too far (as I said earlier), but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t well done.

And calling me a white knight to discredit me doesn’t make it any less true.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

Believe as you will Karla, but stating something doesn’t make it true.

I come from a planet where we call it ‘listing arguments to make a point’.
You must be an allie(n). (;

Your arguments don’t change a single point I’ve made though. The playerbase is getting better. Some of them, anyway. What’s the argument against that?

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

I don’t know if the player base is getting better or just being conditioned to playing GW “right”.

A player getting better would be soloing champs. A player doing GW “right” is rolling over them in a 40 man zerg.

This “play your way” game is the most oppressive and restrictive game I’ve seen. It’s why I ignore most content added that requires conformity.

I used to pull a Bear out with my longbow waiting at Marionette just to fire up the crowd.

All MMOs are like that to one degree or another. In WoW there were DPS checks and you had to have “the most efficient build” or you weren’t doing enough DPS and that was that. The enrage timer guaranteed you’d fail. All games teach you how to play them.

There are still more options in this game than many others, in spite of their being a most efficient method. Games set up hurdles, players have to learn how to get past those hurdles.

And lately, you can’t just zerg content. There’s plenty of stuff that’s been out that zerging would ruin. If you zerg the events in Drytop you’ll never reach tier five. If you zerged the events in the Pavillion, you wouldn’t get a gold pavillion. There are other examples as well.

People are learning, yes how to play the game. That’s what games are about. Figuring out how to beat them.

insanelyapple.2870:

Does Guesting works after introducing megaserver system? I was trying to reach Underworld from Desolation but it didn’t worked. Is it now an obsolete feature?

What do you mean “reach the Underworld”. You’re not on Desolation and there is no Underworld. The home server you have is part of the equation that decides where you get placed. But because there is no Underworld server, how do you know it didn’t work?

Believe as you will Karla, but stating something doesn’t make it true.

There has to be a range of activities for different people, including some really hard stuff. It was like that in Guild Wars 1 also. Open world not too hard but as you progressed through the game it got harder and harder.

The new content is far far harder than the original stuff. Even the open world. There’s been talk about the AI of the Inquest has been improved. The player base is getting better. Not willingly perhaps, but it’s happening, a bit at a time.

Of course if you’re not playing you wouldn’t know.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Linked skills. bleh. In the case of Offhands, sometimes the skills linked to the “weapon” make it basically useless. I’ve played sword n board Warriors for years, but not here. Two fairly useless long cooldown skills does not a “shield” make. Skills linked to weapons > the weapon itself. My tiny human mes uses a GS, not because it makes any sense, but because of the skills linked.

Oh yeah, shield skills are relatively weak in this game…possibly with the exception of the engineer. But it’s still better than some of the builds I saw in Guild Wars 1 when people had complete freedom.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Pretty sure they cant play – or rather, their input in the zerg is negligable – when they bring a cond build using a random gear pieces, most of which are power-based, and no points in cond trait trees. So it is much like fighting the destroyers with a regular fire build, I’d say. Which brings me back to the effort wasted in dumbing things down because some players don’t know/want to skill their character properly.

Making the game more inclusive to casuals in the open world isn’t a waste of time…to me. If you want to believe it’s a waste of time, you’re certainly entitled to that opinion.

I’m pretty sure Anet didn’t think it was a waste of time.

But there’s an in between group of people two. There are two types of people. People who can learn and people who can’t. Not everyone is a “gamer”. Some people need a lot longer to get the hang of stuff.

Guild Wars 1 was unfriendly enough to frustrate and lose people before they could get the hang of it. I’ve watched some of the people you’d have described as hopeless and not worth it become pretty good, even very good players. But it took a long time for some of them.

Don’t be so quick to write people off.

KarlaGrey.5903:

maha.7902:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Point was that GW had immense build variety, and builds that fell out of flavour could always be replaced by other, unless the entire zone/encounter or key skills were nerfed. But even then, past builds are evidence of the sheer variety it boasted at one point in time, something GW2 cannot do now, and could not do in the past.

Remove any attack type immunities from gw1 mobs (destroyers immune to fire attacks etc.) and the respective builds built around that. How many builds does that remove? Remove hero builds because you do everything in gw2 dungeons 5-man with real people. How many builds do you have now? Sounds to me a lot of this diversity was just tailoring to specific mob types, which gw2 mostly removed, and I don’t think it’s really that interesting having to shift builds because you’re going from fighting mob type 1 to mob type 2. Here’s the thing – anet simplified traits (70 points down to 14) because players were dumb and weren’t picking up minor and major traits like you are meant to – there are people in the game who would literally stick 18 points in to a trait line. So if you want any sort of complexity, this is not the game you are looking for.

Firstly, destroyers weren’t immune to fire damage, but rather highly resistant. If all of your group was fire-based (unlikely), all you had to do was take things like winter on any character that could spare a slot, even a monk.
Secondly, GW building was actually pretty straightfoward (bar perhaps for pvp) and fun, if only you had proper reading comprehension, decent overview over the skill list (team builder ftw), and was able to put two and two together.
Dumbing the game down because some players roll bad builds is an effort wasted, simply because there will ALWAYS be players with bad builds around.
And in all honesty, I think building in GW2 is a rather tedious and unintuitive process, and a lack of templates and gear-based bottlenecks only makes things worse.

But far less so in Guild Wars 2, where five skills were linked to a weapon. It ensures everyone can at least play. I don’t think that’s a waste of time, and I’m pretty sure Anet doesn’t either.

maha.7902:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Point was that GW had immense build variety, and builds that fell out of flavour could always be replaced by other, unless the entire zone/encounter or key skills were nerfed. But even then, past builds are evidence of the sheer variety it boasted at one point in time, something GW2 cannot do now, and could not do in the past.

Remove any attack type immunities from gw1 mobs (destroyers immune to fire attacks etc.) and the respective builds built around that. How many builds does that remove? Remove hero builds because you do everything in gw2 dungeons 5-man with real people. How many builds do you have now? Sounds to me a lot of this diversity was just tailoring to specific mob types, which gw2 mostly removed, and I don’t think it’s really that interesting having to shift builds because you’re going from fighting mob type 1 to mob type 2. Here’s the thing – anet simplified traits (70 points down to 14) because players were dumb and weren’t picking up minor and major traits like you are meant to – there are people in the game who would literally stick 18 points in to a trait line. So if you want any sort of complexity, this is not the game you are looking for.

It meant you had to know your mobs, which I felt was a good thing. I hate that I can make earth elementals bleed.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Yea they tend to take many things into consideration, but that’s more or less as far as it gets.

Should they do more than take many things into consideration? I think that’s exactly what they should be doing, no?

KarlaGrey.5903:

Hehe, I’d ask you to list ‘the good’, but I don’t want to have you waste your precious time listing something that will simply be dismissed due to not meeting minimal quality requirements. Sorry.

You’d be surprised at how long my list of bad is.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Then you may stay silent and let facts speak for themselves instead of throwing around strawmen. Thank you.

I’m sorry can you explain how what I’ve said is a strawman? Assuming that Guild Wars 1 had more build variety (which it clearly did), there’s still the tendency of people to overstate how much more variety it had.

I had builds that evolved over five years. I had four less builds in the first 2 years I played. As I moved through the game, a lot of my builds were no longer optimal. Sure I could keep them forever and not delete them, but you know…I’ve also had a couple of dozen builds so far in Guild Wars 2 as stuff changed. It’s not as much as Guild Wars 1, but then if the point if this thread is just a yes or no question, it’s been answered and it should be closed.

However, I think it’s worth discuss WHY Anet made changes to things like number of skills and second profession. Surely if the build diversity changed for a reason and that reason has some positive connotations they’re worth mentioning here.

Surely if people want to exaagerate, or forget certain details it should be pointed out.

You’re trying too hard.

KarlaGrey.5903:

You’re trying too hard.

I’m really not. I seriously deleted most of my builds, because most of them weren’t really optimal anymore. There wasn’t a point to keep them.

I’ve already said in this thread multiple times that Guild Wars 1 has more build diversity than Guild Wars 2. You can’t find one place where I’ve said otherwise. So why would I be trying at all?

Komir and Rurik in Guild Wars 1 come to mind. I don’t know why. lol