Accept it – they lied, again. There was a dramatic change in Anet’s structure right around release (2 of the 3 founders left, almost the entire dev team quit/were fired, and now we have about 6 people of the original team left.)
The people in charge now are about making money from everything – and we’re getting what you’d expect from it. Content that requires 24/7 game play, or cracking open your wallet.
It’s disappointing, and vaguely upsetting, but frankly, what I’ve come to expect from the “new” Anet.
Lie implies intent. What evidence do you have that when Anet devs made these quotes they didn’t think them true.
Yep Anet made changes to it’s originally plans. 100% true. They went in with one intention, it didn’t work out and they changed mid-stride. kitten ed a whole lot of people off in the process.
I really believe the Anet devs thought they could get away with only cosmetic upgrades…and then the game met the real world. Sucks, but what did you expect them to do. Say goodbye to most of the game’s population?
Do you guys really think Anet devs woke up one day and I said, I have a great idea. Let’s screw over our strongest fans. That will be fun!
Because I don’t think that’s how it happened.
Also there are four zones you can complete that will guarantee you two exotics each. That’s eight guaranteed exotics. You might not be able to use them but selling them to buy others is what most people do.
Even if you’re on a difference server, you can still join and play with a guild, in everything except for WvW.
But yes deleting all your characters will let you change servers for free.
Got a date on that quote? lol
Interview with Eric Flannum on Kill Ten Rats is here
http://www.killtenrats.com/2011/11/29/gw2-interview-with-arenanets-eric-flannum/
I suggest you all read it.
The company is built around the idea of iteration. They change stuff up when they see things aren’t working. They kill entire ideas. Devs are told not to be too attached to their ideas because they might well change. Anet has been up front about iteration long before launch. They try things they see if they work, they change them. Even major stuff like having energy in the game.
So how does this interview and everything they said about iteration stack up against a single or even a couple of old quotes.
MMOs have changed. They’ve moved the goal post. It was always a possibility because they iterate. They saw something wasn’t working and they changed it.
If they hadn’t changed it when they saw it wasn’t working, they’d have been lying about iteration.
Iteration? Doing a 180 regarding vertical progression…completely changing the fundamental basis upon which you’ve built your game is just “iteration”? So they’re just trying things to see if they work, then? If horizontal progression didn’t work, then how did ArenaNet ever move forward with that notion after it not working for seven years in the original Guild Wars?
They tried cosmetic only rewards and saw that wasn’t working. So yes, the threw it out. It’s the difference between intention and what you can do once the game is out.
I’m happy personally with cosmetic only gear, and in fact, this game isn’t immersive enough for me. It’s not the game I thought it would be. But I understand why it’s not the game I thought it would be. If I had responsibility for a huge and expensive project, I’m not sure what choices I would have made to save it.
The population was going down fast. The game didn’t have the stickiness.
My hope now is that the game will have more stickiness with the achievement point hunt and Anet can stop coming out with new tiers of gear. That would be ideal.
@Vayne
My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.Shame you did not follow in his footsteps…
I shudder to think that the guy who derails most forums on this site
likes put focus more on just how he perceives anybody else with another valid opinion then his own more so then the actual topic……..seems anytime a player voices their concern about the game Vayne will show up and spend more time trying to understand and prove how anybody else with another point of view other then his surely must be wrong and they need to be told why by use of fictitious numbers or taking things out of context
Not sure if he is trolling half the time or some paid bot. ALL Hail A-nets Brownish White Knight!
Actually I am concerned about the game. But I also know that using the wrong words to express your concern will invalidate your legitimate complaints.
If Anet has no intention of making a treadmill and you complain about there being one, then Anet can ignore the thread completely because they know they’re not planning on making a treadmill.
If your problem is grind, and you don’t like it, calling it a treadmill won’t change it. Complain about the grind
Due to my background, word choice is pretty important to me, and communicating your complaints effectively is the only way change can happen.
So if you have a complaint about the game, and you phrase it in an ambiguous way, it will never be heard and you’re just wasting your time. That’s why I talk about semantics so much.
That’s why I tell people not to bring up three year old videos and talk about what is going on now.
Because ultimately that’s the only way anything will be changed.
The problem lies with the RNG Aspect and Immense Grind that is required to the reach the highest tier of gear. Getting a Precursor is completely luck based. Plus when you’re going for a Legendary why would you ever waste your precious resources on an Ascended item or Unique Exotic item? Also, I am okay with people being able to sell everything they acquire in-game but now that Legendaries are getting a bump and since you can buy Gold with Real Money Guild Wars 2 has honestly become a Pay to Win Game.
Ultimately I feel that The Guild Wars franchise has gone to complete trash. I can admit that I used to be one of Anet’s biggest fans and supporters. It’s a shame because Guild Wars 2 really is a beautiful game and Guild Wars 1 is easily one of the best games I’ve ever played.
I agree with your comments about precusors. I hate the way Anet has done them. Even having gotten one, I hate the way Anet had done them. But legendary weapons don’t make this game.
If Anet makes it so that you need ascended gear to play most of the content, then this game will be everything most of the people in this thread seem to be saying.
If Anet doesn’t, then it truly is optional and if it takes time, it can take time. I won’t be grinding for it.
The Quarterly report from NcSoft, which is a publicly held company, shows that Guild Wars 2 is doing fine.
Your comments about an expansion don’t make much sense from a business perspective.
Right now, Anet is giving away content every 2 weeks. They’d sell an expansion. MMOs often come out with expansions when there’s less interest in their game to bring people back to the game and to get some more money to fund future development. The fact that Anet isn’t doing an expansion is evidence of the fact that they’re doing okay.
I suspect a good percentage of their profits are from the cash shop.
Thanks Vayne.
1. As Vayne points out, their public financial statements show that GW2 is meeting their financial targets (translation – it’s profitable for them).
2. Arenanet has hired people within its first year. Other recent MMOs have laid off people within the first year. No company is going to hire people to support an unprofitable product.So yes, GW2 is doing well financially.
BioWare was hiring right through the layoffs… it’s all about getting the type of staffing you need, not quantity.
GW2 is a small game… it’s fine, it has it’s niche, it is well-run, well-engineered. But it simply isn’t a great MMO nor is it ever going to have the impact on the genre or players or mainstream than WoW has had.
And there’s nothing wrong with that, unless you’re a player looking to invest the next 5-10 years in a game and would like alot more depth and content than is currently being provided.
Well engineered certainly well run is another matter entirely. So far all I’ve seen is one PR thing after another trying to catchup instead of actually performing the expectations that we all bought this game for originally but suddenly changed after as if their audience changed, it didn’t.
Your expectations. The expectations of people like you.
The game has met the expectations of other people.
Though I agree some things Anet have done weren’t well done, I say to you what I used to say to the management training class I used to teach. As a manager you’re literally going to make hundreds of decisions a day. Ten percent of them will probably be wrong. No one is perfect. The trick of being a good manager is to stand by what you’ve decided and work it through so you minimize long term damage with your mistakes.
Anet isn’t a person it’s a company with hundreds of people. Some of those people are going to make mistakes. It’s inevitable. So some of the stuff that’s done won’t be as good as other stuff.
But that doesn’t mean the game doesn’t meet my expectations even if some things didn’t go off as planned or weren’t accepted by people.
The games population, according to Anet, is going up again. Someone is playing and enjoying it.
This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.
Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.GW2 has lots.
Grind isn’t doing things over and over again. I wake up every single morning every day of my life…am I grinding waking up? If that’s your understanding of grind no wonder you find the game grindy.
Because in every MMO, every game in fact, everything you do is repetitive?
You’re a Guild Wars 1 fan. How many creatures did you kill? How many times did you run DOA. How many GvG matches did you play? Whatever you did in GW 1 for the time you played, you did it a lot. I did a ton of vanquishing. I didn’t have to. I did it because I enjoyed it.
Grind originally meant to kill mobs to level. That’s the original definition and later it started to be anything they people had to repeat that they didn’t like. So crafting is a grind if you don’t like it, killing is a grind if you don’t like it. The Luxon title track would have been a grind in Guild Wars 1 but it was called a farm. FFF or fast faction farm. And people repeated it over and over again to grind it out. Guild Wars 1 had no shortage of grinds.
The grind for a legendary in GW 2 is huge (unless you choose not to grind in which case it takes a long time). But people call dailies a grind and I don’t think that qualifies. Likewise time-gating something isn’t a grind. It’s time-gating. In a grind you could keep doing it until you got it. If anything time-gating is anti grind.
Maybe you want to call everything repetitive a grind, but that’s not what grind is.
Got a date on that quote? lol
Interview with Eric Flannum on Kill Ten Rats is here
http://www.killtenrats.com/2011/11/29/gw2-interview-with-arenanets-eric-flannum/
I suggest you all read it.
The company is built around the idea of iteration. They change stuff up when they see things aren’t working. They kill entire ideas. Devs are told not to be too attached to their ideas because they might well change. Anet has been up front about iteration long before launch. They try things they see if they work, they change them. Even major stuff like having energy in the game.
So how does this interview and everything they said about iteration stack up against a single or even a couple of old quotes.
MMOs have changed. They’ve moved the goal post. It was always a possibility because they iterate. They saw something wasn’t working and they changed it.
If they hadn’t changed it when they saw it wasn’t working, they’d have been lying about iteration.
I didn’t have a lot of time when I responded to the first part of your post, and I have more time now…so explain to me.
edit: on further reflection I’ve been doing the same thing you have, arguing about use of a term instead of the real issues, so I’ll cede the point — not because I agree that the arbitrary adaptation of a term needs to stay locked in stone, but because there are more important issues to discuss.
If we don’t agree on terms, no argument is even possible. If you say gear treadmill and I simply can’t accept the term because of my understanding of what it means, then we can’t go to Anet and say don’t have a gear treadmill.
Vertical progression by itself doesn’t make that in my mind. And since Anet hasn’t defined the term either, if you want to stop them from doing something, you have to talk in language they understand.
I’m pretty sure they don’t see this as a gear treadmill, that’s what I’m saying. The probably do see it as time gating and grind though.
A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.
What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.
Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.
What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.
And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.
Does it really matte what we call it? I think that it’s a new tier of gear added solely to give carrot chasers a reason to keep logging in on a daily basis is the point. Actually it’s the sub-point, the larger point being that this game was supposed to get away from genre norms.
Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?
Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.
Remember that? I sure do.
It matters what we call it to me. It might not matter what we call it to you.
Maybe it’s my work that made word usage important to me, but if we’re communicating with each other and we’re using the same word to mean different things…well the first step in communicating with anyone is to define terms.
I don’t think there’s enough here to call this a treadmill. The use of the word treadmill could conceivably throw off the argument. What people are really saying is that it’s a grind.
Saying I don’t want a treadmill is a very different thing to saying I don’t want a grind.
Let’s say that Anet devs understand a gear treadmill in the same way I do and let’s also pretend just for the sake of argument that they aren’t planning on more tiers of gear.
Then they look at a thread that says I don’t want a gear treadmill and never look further, knowing they don’t plan on having one. Meanwhile the thread really means I don’t like grinding for this gear.
If you want to have a conversation about something, particularly if you want that thing to change, you have to define what you’re talking about first.
They said that legendary weapons were meant to be best in slot always. That was directly said. Maybe someone will find a quote, but they were always meant to be BIS. They’re raising the stats now because ascended gear is coming out. I’d be very surprised if they said to people okay, your legendary is now useless.
I just don’t see that happening at all.
And I fully expect legendary armor at some point.
Well, I remember reading that too, but I also remember noticing how they didn’t take the level cap raise into it. This was around the time that ascended gear was announced and they said that legendary weapons would be matched to any tier, but again not specifying anything about what would happen in the case of a level cap raise.
I am pretty sure that the current legendary weapons will forever be BiS for level 80, but I am not so sure it will be BiS for higher levels.
Considering how much of the crappy RNG stuff they are copying from Aion, I wouldn’t be surprised if a level cap raise will include a way to upgrade your current one to level 90 or whatever, but I’d be really surprised if they’d just auto-update it to the new level cap.
We’ll see of course but I think you read a little more in those comments than was actually written there. I would be surprised if you found a genuine link to any comments that include the level cap raise in that BiS commentary.
You could be right..the future will tell I guess.
Right but until the patch comes out, no one will know. People will know exactly as much as you do right now.
The Quarterly report from NcSoft, which is a publicly held company, shows that Guild Wars 2 is doing fine.
Your comments about an expansion don’t make much sense from a business perspective.
Right now, Anet is giving away content every 2 weeks. They’d sell an expansion. MMOs often come out with expansions when there’s less interest in their game to bring people back to the game and to get some more money to fund future development. The fact that Anet isn’t doing an expansion is evidence of the fact that they’re doing okay.
I suspect a good percentage of their profits are from the cash shop.
I wouldn’t say they’re giving away content considering it always has an attachment of either tools cosmetics or boxes that all cost real money to obtain. If we went by what you said just now they’d have 0 money coming in and wouldn’t be doing good at all. So don’t fool yourself they are charging.
But not all content has cash shop represcussions. They didn’t have to redo T’quatl. They didn’t have to make the account wallet (in fact, they would be making more money without it, since people would have less room)…
the point is someone says Anet doesn’t care…offered no shred of evidence. If you think they don’t care, by all means. produce the evidence.
What I think is that people who don’t like where the game is going think that Anet doesn’t care because they’re not listening to THEM.
Everyone seems to forget that Anet can’t listen to everyone because people want conflicting things.
How can anyone answer this?
I don’t know the true numbers, but I strongly suspect this game needs a whole lot of players to keep the wheels turning.
It needs a lot of people spending money in the Cash Shop. The biggest aspect of that shop is buying gems for real money then converting to in-game gold.
Does not need a large percentage of the playerbase spending real money in the shop? This has been proven with various models (you can google to get the study findings). These whales, as they are referred to in casinos, are driving the real world GW2 economy post-box sales.
The question is what motivates these individuals to spend and more importantly, to buy gold from Arenanet.
If it using real money to buy mats for the “hard to get” gear or even being the “hard to get” gear directly, then it explains the introduction of Ascended and the huge requirements for both Ascended/Legendary weapons.
I cannot blame Arenanet for making changes that support their financial model. I just wonder if this focus makes the game more fun.
If you let this sort of stuff rule you, it’ll be less fun. If you just do stuff casually as it happens and don’t rush out and get everything right away…then it’s probably more fun.
Fun has to be at least partially a player’s responsibility.
They got their money they just don’t care anymore…
Based on what evidence? More content every two weeks? The introduction of the wallet. The LFG tool is coming. A redesign of T’quatl.
This must be some strange usage of the words “don’t care” that I haven’t previously been aware of.
You may not like the content or find it fun but the amount of content and the work that goes into creating that kind of content implies a work ethic quite different from what you claim.
Well lets try not to insult here. There is a thing called behaviorism when it comes to money and quality. Thats besides the point though
They can release content every day of the week, but if the content is stale and repetitive, it will be shunned by those gamers who do not have that kind of taste to do the same thing all the time.
My point is that Anet didn’t really have to go and redo T’quatl. They’re not doing it because they don’t care.
The problem is two fold. Someone is allowed to say Anet doesn’t care without any evidence whatsoever, and I present some circumstantial evidence to show at least some caring and you’re going to try to take me to task? lol
Let’s put it another way. Anet is not a sentient being. Anet is a company. The company has around 300 employees. Certainly more than 250. Let’s say 250.
So what are the odds that everyone at Anet doesn’t care? Every single person. Because we know Anet can’t care…it has no mind. It’s a fictious existence.
Throwing around words like don’t care without evidence is just plain silly.
This tends to happen a lot on gaming forums, but the fact of the matter is, the devs “dont” care, they didnt ask you what you wanted, they didnt ask me, or anyone else we know. Can you prove me wrong? Let me know when you find evidence showing people asked for anything in the upcoming patch.
Well we know for a fact people asked for upgraded gear, because we’ve seen posts about it. Surely not most of the forums, but you can’t deny there have been posts about it.
THe LFG tool, coming mid month, people did ask for that. Making big dragon events more challenging and rewarding…people did ask for that.
SAB coming back….are you seriously suggesting no one asked for that?
They got their money they just don’t care anymore…
Based on what evidence? More content every two weeks? The introduction of the wallet. The LFG tool is coming. A redesign of T’quatl.
This must be some strange usage of the words “don’t care” that I haven’t previously been aware of.
You may not like the content or find it fun but the amount of content and the work that goes into creating that kind of content implies a work ethic quite different from what you claim.
Well lets try not to insult here. There is a thing called behaviorism when it comes to money and quality. Thats besides the point though
They can release content every day of the week, but if the content is stale and repetitive, it will be shunned by those gamers who do not have that kind of taste to do the same thing all the time.
My point is that Anet didn’t really have to go and redo T’quatl. They’re not doing it because they don’t care.
The problem is two fold. Someone is allowed to say Anet doesn’t care without any evidence whatsoever, and I present some circumstantial evidence to show at least some caring and you’re going to try to take me to task? lol
Let’s put it another way. Anet is not a sentient being. Anet is a company. The company has around 300 employees. Certainly more than 250. Let’s say 250.
So what are the odds that everyone at Anet doesn’t care? Every single person. Because we know Anet can’t care…it has no mind. It’s a fictious existence.
Throwing around words like don’t care without evidence is just plain silly.
Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.
Well it’s just like your PC. There’s always a better one or a new graphics card. Some people look it something to look forward to and others will call it a neverending story.
Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.
And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.
We don’t know for sure if that’s true. They said that they would match it to the ascended tier, but there’s one question they never answered. What happens when they raise the level cap (as they already said will happen)? Will the legendary weapons be raised to the highest tier of the new level or not? You see, they said they would match it to the highest tier, but tiers can exist at different levels. They never said that level cap raises would be applied to legendary weapons. So you are going on an assumption here.
What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.
In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.
So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?
Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.
I haven’t heard about legendary armour yet but if the game would get gear that you can get and then never ever have to buy another set of gear as it automatically upgrades with level caps being raised, well, I’d say more and more people will find this game pointless….not everyone will find that amazing and I can’t imagine it being good for continued activity in an MMO.
This is actually quite a weak point in the game for the long term as I see it. Sure, some people will love it but I think it will cause the game to lose even more players over time.
They said that legendary weapons were meant to be best in slot always. That was directly said. Maybe someone will find a quote, but they were always meant to be BIS. They’re raising the stats now because ascended gear is coming out. I’d be very surprised if they said to people okay, your legendary is now useless.
I just don’t see that happening at all.
And I fully expect legendary armor at some point.
it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.
A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.
What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.
Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.
What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.
And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.
I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.
Have you play GW1? Do you realize that 7 years later and that game still cap at lv20 and no treadmill. I’m not saying it will never happen, I’m saying the chance of it ever happening are very slim.
Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a gear treadmill. Arguably it had a skill treadmill. They’re different but not so different.
Guild Wars 1 players don’t sit and complain that skills that completely dumbed down the PvE game were suddenly available. I never ran a necro without necrosis. It was too good a skill to leave behind. Ursan rank 8. Hell even stuff like poison tipped signet which wasn’t available until EotN came out.
So yes, you didn’t have to grind for gear…but you did get new skills and then, if you wanted BIS skills, you had to grind to get those skills up. Sunspear title track, Lightbringer…Luxon/Kurzick, Norn, Deldrimor, Asuran, Ebon Vanguard…and those skills were game changers. They were far more powerful in PvE than ascended gear will ever be. There were builds that completely depended on individual skills.
So Guild Wars 1 asked you to grind for BIS skills and Guild Wars 2 asks you to grind for BIS gear.
Guild Wars 1 had a skill treadmill.
Why is one okay and one so terribad?
This started in another thread, where someone said to me that Guild Wars 2 has a gear treadmill, specifically stating that they’d never seen a definition of gear treadmill that said gear progression has to be ongoing.
Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.
Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.
And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.
What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.
In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.
So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?
Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.
You forget the tiny fact that in order to get a legendary weapon you have to:
Either luck a precursor out from the Mystic Toilet or loot (and i think everyone and their dogs knows how “easy” it is) or grind a truckload of gold and buy that from a TP Fighter.
And then, you have to grind your butt off if you want to get the legendary before you get too old to hold a mouse.
Now that’s for ONE weapon… Think about it for SIX pieces of armor + other six trinkets…
Like this isn’t already Grind Wars 2…
Everything in every game gets easier to get over time. Right now you have to grind your butt off to get a legendary.
As the game gets more and more content and closer to it’s goal of having enough to do, then those limits loosen up. They did it in Guild Wars 2, they do it in every MMO.
It’s like the titles in Guild Wars 1. It’s much easier to get Legendary Defender of Ascalon today than it was at release.
Time goes on, things get easier. You don’t have to believe me, you’ll see soon enough.
Wait is the whole point of this thread trying to prove that gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill but a gear grind. That doesnt make it any better….
It doesn’t make it better to you. It makes it a whole lot better to me.
See, the gear itself, to me, needs to be optional. I don’t need it. Case in point, I run characters with rares and exotics mixed, no ascended and I can do everything I want in the game. This hasn’t been true in any other MMO I’ve ever played. That’s the real difference.
In other MMOs not having BIS gear means not seeing content at all. In Guild Wars 2….not so much.
But when gear has better stats it is then NOT optional for pvp or other competitive activities. Therefore it is now a treadmill. Whether the increase is only a few percent or not it makes no difference.
Optimal does not equal possible. There are tons of people playing WvW now without “optimal” gear. In fact. WvW was never intended to be balanced according to Anet. Structured PvP, the balanced PvP isn’t affected at all.
It’s not a treadmill if there’s a cap, whether it’s a grind or not.
Calling it a treadmill won’t make it one.
Wait is the whole point of this thread trying to prove that gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill but a gear grind. That doesnt make it any better….
It doesn’t make it better to you. It makes it a whole lot better to me.
See, the gear itself, to me, needs to be optional. I don’t need it. Case in point, I run characters with rares and exotics mixed, no ascended and I can do everything I want in the game. This hasn’t been true in any other MMO I’ve ever played. That’s the real difference.
In other MMOs not having BIS gear means not seeing content at all. In Guild Wars 2….not so much.
It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.
@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other tread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?
I’d have been more than happy if they never had anything but cosmetic gear. That’s personally. That’s completely different than if I think the game needs it.
My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.
My answer to that is … good riddance. I don’t mean any offence but such people make the game worse for people like me who play for fun. People like your son simply can’t be pleased on the long term, without killing fun for people like me. That makes the “good riddance” a practical thing. People who don’t like RTS games shouldn’t be playing StarCraft either.
There are goal oriented people who need goals. Those goals don’t have to be gear, but gear is certainly an easy one to provide them with.
In fact, it’s so easy that it’s become the lazy cop out in the industry. I personally believe the route with achievement break points and account stats is the superior one.
What if such people were the majority of the people? What if there weren’t enough players left for Anet to expand the game.
I’ve played a whole lot of MMOs that don’t resonate with me at all. And I don’t know a whole lot of businesses that say, you know let everyone walk out, the business we have is enough. That’s not the way big business works…and MMOs have become big business.
It’s very easy when the money being invested into the game isn’t ours. We know what we want in a game. But unlike Guild Wars 1 which had a staff of 50, Guild Wars 2 has a staff of 300, bigger headquarters and far more server expense.
I don’t know the true numbers, but I strongly suspect this game needs a whole lot of players to keep the wheels turning.
Everyone knows Anet doesn’t make “grindy games”, just ask Anet, or watch their pre-release video. You know, the one that also states they won’t have a gear tread mill in GW2….yeah….that video.
Strange, I watched every Guild Wars 2 video and never saw one that said we won’t have a gear treadmill.
Like many companies, ANet uses vague terminology that can be interpreted multiple ways. Naturally, people make the interpretation that coincides with what they want to see.
Who could have known that when Colin Johanson wrote:
“When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.
But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?"
…that a subset of the players would convince GW2 to abandon this philosophy — with the exceptions of leveling speed, and that the loot drop systems with crazy low chance RNG are not in dungeons — within a year of launch.
I agree the game is grindier than it was originally supposed to be. I also think if the game wasn’t grindy and they just kept cosmetic upgrades, there wouldn’t be a game by now. That’s because people are conditioned to certain “universal MMO truths” that aren’t true, but they think they are.
So if Anet didn’t introduce the stuff, the five of us still playing could sit around in game and get a poker game. I’m exaggerating intentionally, but watching the reaction of people since launched has convinced me that the game I want isn’t the game most other people want. So I’m willing to live with the inconvenience to have an MMO I finally enjoy.
Because I don’t enjoy most other MMOs at all. I do enjoy/have fun in Guild Wars 2.
They simply can’t produce enough content fast enough to keep people playing. And if people don’t play…that’s not really good for the game either.
Adding one tier of gear does not constitute a treadmill. It is merely a flight of stairs once you get to the top (ascended) your done. There is no infinite stair case chasing new tiers of gear beyond ascended.
However if once the full ascended is out and they come out with a new tier you can officially call it a treadmill.
Getting an Ascended weapon is about as grindy as getting a similar weapon in Linage 2… food for thought.
I had no issue with a Legendary being grindy as it was purely cosmetic and a lot of blokes did it just to look awesome, or because they wanted something to do, but now that both will carry better stats, its a treadmill in the traditional sense.
I think that the word treadmill was never designed to talk about how grindy getting something is or isn’t. That’s not what the treadmill referred to. A treadmill is something you get on but you don’t get off.
If Anet keeps introducing tiers of gear..if there’s no ceiling, this is indeed a treadmill. Something that’s grindy and takes a long time to get, no matter if it has higher stats or not doesn’t make it a treadmill.
It just makes it a grind.
It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.
@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other tread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?
I’d have been more than happy if they never had anything but cosmetic gear. That’s personally. That’s completely different than if I think the game needs it.
My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.
There are goal oriented people who need goals. Those goals don’t have to be gear, but gear is certainly an easy one to provide them with.
But the situation at Anet has changed since ascended gear was released. Back then the game had very little stickiness. People played it and people walked away without a second thought. This clearly wasn’t Anet’s intention.
Now Anet sees people logging in more (based on something Colin said) due to the living story. So Anet has that stickiness…which means they don’t need infinite tiers of gear.
My guess is if they move forward with horizontal progression and the living story and those continue to draw people back to the game, Anet has no need for additional tiers of gear.
That’s not to say if these things stop working Anet won’t go back there.
I don’t need it. But when it came out, I’m pretty sure the game did.
20 laurals is still not cheap. That’s still 20 days of dailies. And all of your are easily attainable… for the PvE crowd. Playing the way I want to play is playing WvW, and nat having to worry about who has BiS gear.
It’s 20 days of dailies, not counting the dailies you get from achievement chests, which don’t hurt either. I have over 160 laurels right now and I have amulets on at least four characters.
I’m not trying to undersell how long it takes to get laurels…but laurels aren’t hard to get at all. And I definitely think some people are trying to oversell how hard they are to get.
And if you happen to get a monthly (which some people get during the first week), you get an additional 10 laurels.
Again, it’s not nothing but it’s not a major undertaking either is my point. Dailies, monthlies and achievement point chests should make getting some ascended gear doable. Guild missions should cover your earrings at least.
Considering most of this stuff was introduced in November and it’s now September…people have had plenty of time to get the stuff if they wanted to the stuff.
I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.
Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.
In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.
A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.
You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.
I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.
I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.
It may only be a single tier of gear, but they’ve released it incrementally. Therefore, the game has a new power plateau roughly every 3 months, just like WoW et al. Granted, each new plateau is close to the last, relative to most other MMO’s, but it’s still been changing as often as a traditional MMO. You still need to hop back on the treadmill every 3ish months. And unlike most MMO’s there’s no quick way to grab the older bits. Usually when new dungeons/raids come out, the old ones get softened up a bit, and the number of runs required to gear up is lowered. When weapons are added tomorrow, rings will likely still require a month’s worth of laurals each. It might be a horse of a different color, but it’s still a horse.[/quote]
There’s no quick easy way to grab older bits? Are we even playing the same game?
Ascended amulets for example require 30 laurels and originally laurels were only given with dailies and monthlies. But you can get an ascended amulet for 20 laurels and 250 badges of honor. If you had any achievement points worth speaking about, you should have badges of honor out the wazzu. Most people don’t even know what to do with them.
Doing guild missions takes a couple of weeks to get an ascended earring, but you can get them with laurels too (though it’s more expensive).
And money is easier to get/farm now than it ever has been. Anet is pretty much throwing money at anyone who wants to run some events.
I think most of these things are easier to get.
Basically Anet is giving people plenty of time to have gotten the previous stuff if they were at all interested.
And if you do fractals, even if you don’t do them that often, you certainly will have enough ascended rings for all your characters by now.
It’s worth playing just for the lore…but you’d be best advised to find a buddy that knows it who can run you through things efficiently and give you a guided tour. I’ve done that for a lot of my guildies.
Do you know what we call a baseless claim with no evidence to back it up? It’s called fiction.
There’s no evidence the game is dying. And by none, I mean zero. Zilch. Nada.
You can say anything you want and so can I.
Evidence, however, doesn’t support you.
Neither does you.
You keep telling us that you see plenty of people every time of the day, you got 120 active members in your guild ecc.
But you are on Tarnished Coast, the most populated server where people goes to guest.I’m from Gunnar’s Hold, EU server with (last time i checked) high population, and i can tell you that from my point of view, the game is losing lots of players on daily basis.
Who’s right? Who’s wrong?
The difference is I’m saying no one knows and someone else is saying it’s shrinking. Who’s right? Me. Because I’m saying no one knows.
Now if the person arguing with me would say they didn’t know,. they’d be right too, but they’re not. They’re saying its shrinking, for which there’s no evidence.
The only thing we know is that Anet has stated publicly that the population is growing, in the summertime when it shrinks in most MMOs (and they also said it shrunk in Guild Wars 1 during the summers), but here they see continual growth. That’s what Anet has said.
I say we don’t know. Would you really care to argue that point?
Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.
In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.
A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.
You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.
I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.
I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.
I´d say you are grossly exaggerating gear progression in other mmorpg. And still I do not understand your reasons for trusting Ascended will be the final tier. Can you name me one single good reason why this tier had to be introduced into the game past exotics beside the usual reasons mmorpg introduce new gear tiers? And please do not cite AR. That could have been a simple addition to other armors and jewelery just like the seer mechanic in GW1. Again, I am not bashing the game for having gear progression now, but I do not see any reason why not call a thing what it is.
Two things. First, Anet said this was always intended, but they ran out of time before launch to get it into the game. You could say they were lying if you want, but I’m not so sure.
There usually is a tier of gear that takes a bit longer to get in most games. There was too big a game between legendaries and exotics for me to believe another tier wasn’t intended at that point.
Secondly, Anet has mentioned in their blog post about the future of moving to horizontal progression with more skills and different weapons for each profession.
I think everyone agrees that people need to feel like they’re making progression. In Guild Wars 1 it was done through skills instead of gear, but you still felt like you were making progress…and each time a new expansion game out, it came with new skills. And some of those skills raised the power level quite substantially (I’m looking at you pain inverter).
There wasn’t enough in Guild Wars 2 to work with. Anet needed a “quick fix” and they did this. But I don’t believe they ever really meant to continue it. It’s there to keep people playing. They now have other ways to keep people playing.
All they’re doing now is finishing the tier they started. Beyond a feeling from what’s been said I have no evidence…but neither does anyone else.
And most games take a whole lot less than a year to introduce an entire tier of gear.
If I want to see every raid in WoW, can I just see a raid, without gearing up? How about most other MMOs.
Yes you can.
Get in the present, its obvious you talk about distant past (lack of experience)
Okay, if this changed, that’s fine. But that still doesn’t change my point about gear being required in MOST MMOs to do raid content. And if you don’t have that gear in MOST MMOs, you can’t do that content.
If you can deny this you’re not as experienced as you think.
Again, please stop talking about things you have NO CLUE about.
Insult away. It’s okay. I can take it.
You obviously can’t win an argument with actual information.
Its you who is completely out of loop and dont have ANY actual information.
Show me where I insulted you, or called you ignorant. The fact that you can’t converse like a civilized human being has been noted…and not just by me.
You should probably try to stick to talking about ideas instead of trying to malign people. It’s really not a good look.
Calling ignorant ignorant is what it is.
You have been explained at least 10 times about same thing and you just ignore it=ignorant.
Its pretty simple.
A disagreement of opinion doesn’t make one ignorant. You think this is a gear grind and compare this to other MMOs. Other MMOs come out with new tiers of gear 3, maybe for times a year. This game has one tier of gear that isn’t even finished coming out yet. One tier. And you call it a treadmill and then call me ignorant.
Calling someone ignorant that has a different opinion is simply sad. And again, if you had facts to back it up…hey how many tiers of gear does WoW come out with a year?
There are so many little touches in this game… I know I’ve talked about some of them before. Some of the ambient dialogue is great. Some of the little references to Guild Wars 1 lore…hell even got to talk to Anton’s ghost. That was cool as hell.
it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.
A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.
What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.
Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.
What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.
And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.
I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.
Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.
In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.
A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.
You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.
I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.
I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.
If I want to see every raid in WoW, can I just see a raid, without gearing up? How about most other MMOs.
Yes you can.
Get in the present, its obvious you talk about distant past (lack of experience)
Okay, if this changed, that’s fine. But that still doesn’t change my point about gear being required in MOST MMOs to do raid content. And if you don’t have that gear in MOST MMOs, you can’t do that content.
If you can deny this you’re not as experienced as you think.
Again, please stop talking about things you have NO CLUE about.
Insult away. It’s okay. I can take it.
You obviously can’t win an argument with actual information.
Its you who is completely out of loop and dont have ANY actual information.
Show me where I insulted you, or called you ignorant. The fact that you can’t converse like a civilized human being has been noted…and not just by me.
You should probably try to stick to talking about ideas instead of trying to malign people. It’s really not a good look.
If I want to see every raid in WoW, can I just see a raid, without gearing up? How about most other MMOs.
Yes you can.
Get in the present, its obvious you talk about distant past (lack of experience)
Okay, if this changed, that’s fine. But that still doesn’t change my point about gear being required in MOST MMOs to do raid content. And if you don’t have that gear in MOST MMOs, you can’t do that content.
If you can deny this you’re not as experienced as you think.
Again, please stop talking about things you have NO CLUE about.
Insult away. It’s okay. I can take it.
You obviously can’t win an argument with actual information.
If I want to see every raid in WoW, can I just see a raid, without gearing up? How about most other MMOs.
Yes you can.
Get in the present, its obvious you talk about distant past (lack of experience)
Okay, if this changed, that’s fine. But that still doesn’t change my point about gear being required in MOST MMOs to do raid content. And if you don’t have that gear in MOST MMOs, you can’t do that content.
If you can deny this you’re not as experienced as you think.
it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.
A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.
What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.
Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.
What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.
And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.
;Vayne.8563:Simply put, you’re wrong. There are 8 dungeons in this game and every one of them can be done in rares…including every explorable path. Every boss in the open world can be done in rares. SPvP has nothing to do with your gear so that can be done. And even WvW, many people run around in rares.
And then we have the fractals. And yes, you can do the fractals up to level 20 with no agony resistance whatsoever. So if you want to see what the fractals are like you can play them. You can play them over and over again at lower levels. It’s only an issue if you want to do higher levels, but get this. The stuff you need to do level 20 fractals you can get from the fractals. It’s absolutely self-contained and doesn’t affect any other dungeon.
Now what MMRPG can you tell me is like that. Name one.
You see, your lack of experience shows. Every MMO released in last 5 years had dungeons (even raids) playable in “greens”.
Please, refrain from posting just for the sake of posting.
Slow down, cowboy. Way to miss a point.
I didn’t say that other games didn’t have dungeons you could or couldn’t do in greens. In your desire to discredit but, you didn’t understand what I said.
Try again. Other games have dungeons you can’t do without having the required gear. That’s the point. Let me give you a crystal clear example.
In Rift, in order to queue for a specific dungeon, I had to have the requisite stats. In order to get those stats I had to do OTHER DUNGEONS. And in order to raid I had to do specific dungeons to get the gear for those raids. And you couldn’t skip a raid and do the next raid.
Now I have a friend on these very forums who played Rift since launch and then had to work a lot. He couldn’t raid with his buddies. Storm Legion came out and he couldn’t be there. His guild moved on. Leveled up. Geared up. They were raiding. He comes back to the game a couple of month later and he can’t get 20 people he needs to do the old raid from his own guild. He was leveling up by himself. He couldn’t do the new content because he didn’t have the gear.
Contrast to this guy in my guild who came back after a four month break and ran Arah with us.
There aren’t many games you can do that. Sure you can sit and do old content with lower level gear, but you need to gear up to do newer content and that’s the difference.
If you can’t see this, that’s okay. I’m sure most other people have already understood what I’ve been saying.
You mean just like fractals.
Warning: ignorance reached critical level
Only thing your post is evidence is how crappy his guild is, nothing else. The only advice your friend need is to kick that guild and look for better one (one who takes care of their members just like we run low level fractals for our members, not because we enjoy it but because they cannot play without them and have to play catch up)
And, BTW, all dungeons and fractals are old content, been in game for a year now.
I talked about fractals. You ignored me (and continue to call me ignorant, something you wouldn’t do if you can win the arguments with actual facts).
So again…people can do fractals with no ascended gear. They can go all the way up to level 20. And if they do that, they can get what they need from fractals to do more fractals. It’s self contained. That’s the point.
If I want to see what fractals are about, I can see EVERY fractal. All of them. All 9.
If I want to see every raid in WoW, can I just see a raid, without gearing up? How about most other MMOs.
In your attempt to put this game down, you only make yourself look disingenuous.
I think you’re on the wrong forums. People are only allowed to complain here. lol
I’m really happy with the world. There’s lot of little touches I just love. Too many to list here.
Good post OP!
;Vayne.8563:Simply put, you’re wrong. There are 8 dungeons in this game and every one of them can be done in rares…including every explorable path. Every boss in the open world can be done in rares. SPvP has nothing to do with your gear so that can be done. And even WvW, many people run around in rares.
And then we have the fractals. And yes, you can do the fractals up to level 20 with no agony resistance whatsoever. So if you want to see what the fractals are like you can play them. You can play them over and over again at lower levels. It’s only an issue if you want to do higher levels, but get this. The stuff you need to do level 20 fractals you can get from the fractals. It’s absolutely self-contained and doesn’t affect any other dungeon.
Now what MMRPG can you tell me is like that. Name one.
You see, your lack of experience shows. Every MMO released in last 5 years had dungeons (even raids) playable in “greens”.
Please, refrain from posting just for the sake of posting.
Slow down, cowboy. Way to miss a point.
I didn’t say that other games didn’t have dungeons you could or couldn’t do in greens. In your desire to discredit but, you didn’t understand what I said.
Try again. Other games have dungeons you can’t do without having the required gear. That’s the point. Let me give you a crystal clear example.
In Rift, in order to queue for a specific dungeon, I had to have the requisite stats. In order to get those stats I had to do OTHER DUNGEONS. And in order to raid I had to do specific dungeons to get the gear for those raids. And you couldn’t skip a raid and do the next raid.
Now I have a friend on these very forums who played Rift since launch and then had to work a lot. He couldn’t raid with his buddies. Storm Legion came out and he couldn’t be there. His guild moved on. Leveled up. Geared up. They were raiding. He comes back to the game a couple of month later and he can’t get 20 people he needs to do the old raid from his own guild. He was leveling up by himself. He couldn’t do the new content because he didn’t have the gear.
Contrast to this guy in my guild who came back after a four month break and ran Arah with us.
There aren’t many games you can do that. Sure you can sit and do old content with lower level gear, but you need to gear up to do newer content and that’s the difference.
If you can’t see this, that’s okay. I’m sure most other people have already understood what I’ve been saying.
This started in another thread, where someone said to me that Guild Wars 2 has a gear treadmill, specifically stating that they’d never seen a definition of gear treadmill that said gear progression has to be ongoing.
Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.
Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.
And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.
What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.
In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.
So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?
Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.
But a treadmill, by definition, never ends. So if legendary is the final tier, then it can’t be a treadmill, because it’s final. That’s a definition.
You can call a bird a stone, but a bird isn’t a stone.
Legendary is not a gear tier. Legendary is a prestige skin. Legendary stats are not different than the stats of whatever the highest tier is. Thus, it cannot be thought of as a final tier. If ANet never adds another tier beyond Ascended, then Ascended would be the highest tier. We don’t yet know if that will or won’t be the case.
No definition of treadmill that I can find includes “never ends” as part of it. A treadmill does include an endless belt as one of its components. The belt is important to the treadmill’s function, but it is not the purpose of the treadmill.
That said, the function of a treadmill is to allow or cause the user to walk in place. However, the purpose of a treadmill is not to be “always on.” It is to power something or get health results. The purpose of a gear treadmill in an MMO is to promote the game’s longevity in the face of players who desire to play the game a lot. That is the purpose of Ascended.
Snip
Legendary is a final tier, because Anet has said if you get a legendary it will be equal to the final tier of gear. I have a legendary trident on my necro and a legendary rifle on my engineer.
That means the day this new tier goes life, I have top tier gear without grinding or farming. You can say it’s not a tier all you want…but it works as a tier. And therefore, it’s not a treadmill, or wouldn’t be if ascended armor works the same way.
I see you ignored the rest of my post. Nice dodge of the real issues in favor of more arguments about semantics.
Okay I didn’t think I’d have to respond to the rest of it, because it makes no sense.
What is a treadmill? It’s something you walk on and you get nowhere. Why do you get nowhere…because it’s just the illusion of progression. This is why it’s called a treadmill. By definition it has no end, because companies keep coming out with gear. I’m pretty sure that most people understand that.
A treadmill isn’t doing something until you get to the end, because if you can get to the end, it’s not a treadmill.
I didn’t have a lot of time when I responded to the first part of your post, and I have more time now…so explain to me.
How is a treadmill something the stops. Because saying the definition doesn’t include endless blows my mind completely. That’s the whole point of using a treadmill as an analogy. If they wanted an end they’d have used an escalator.
Treadmill is used because it perfectly fits in WoW and its clones and in GW2 now.
You get a lot of crap thrown at you and you go nowhere just walking in place. But if you stop walking you fall off.
You should get a bit more experience in MMOs before trying to discuss.
But then ignorance is bliss for you.
More insults from a guy who doesn’t have a valid point to make.
I have people in my guild who aren’t on the gear treadmill. They’re not on the achievement point treadmill. They log in, they do a few things, they log out. Easy right.
Some of those people have run the occasional dungeon with me, including Arah.
I’d love to see this in other games. Someone that doesn’t log in, doesn’t gear up, and tries to run the current raid or even the current dungeon. It’s not possible in most games…it is possible here.
With the exception of high level fractals, which were designed for grinders specifically, can you explain to me what content is denied people wearing rares. I’d really like to know.
“With the exeption…blah blah blah”
All the games you mention have all the things you mention.
Simply put, you’re wrong. There are 8 dungeons in this game and every one of them can be done in rares…including every explorable path. Every boss in the open world can be done in rares. SPvP has nothing to do with your gear so that can be done. And even WvW, many people run around in rares.
And then we have the fractals. And yes, you can do the fractals up to level 20 with no agony resistance whatsoever. So if you want to see what the fractals are like you can play them. You can play them over and over again at lower levels. It’s only an issue if you want to do higher levels, but get this. The stuff you need to do level 20 fractals you can get from the fractals. It’s absolutely self-contained and doesn’t affect any other dungeon.
Now what MMRPG can you tell me is like that. Name one.
The reward clearly isn’t universally bad. Some are enjoying it.
When I open my eyes, I see a lvl 20 scroll, a birthday booster, and a Queen Jennah mini. The extra minis and scrolls aren’t of any use to me, but the boosters can be. Thus, I see a positive outcome. A different mini for each gift like in GW1 would have certainly been more interesting. However, I see no reason to become more than momentarily unimpressed and certainly no reason to become angry.
snip
I agree with you and everyone else that there were valuable gifts in the birthday present. I’m not angry at ArenaNet, I just think it was kinda cheap and easy to give out identical minis instead of keeping the mystery of random chance. And yes, I know a lot of people are screaming about rng, I’m not one of them. I don’t seem to do very well, but I don’t mind it (maybe because I played D&D).
So yeah, I’m just basically providing feedback to ArenaNet that I would’ve preferred a random mini to 8 identical ones. ArenaNet has the choice to do whatever they want with that feedback, but it’s definitely not a sense of ‘entitlement’.
Yes, there was RNG with the original birthday gifts…but at least it wasn’t “you’re stuck with what you get RNG”. I think that’s what most people (at least myself) dislike about the RNG in this game…most of the RNG stuff is account/character bound.
The nice thing about GW1 birthday gifts was there was a variety of minis from each yearly birthday gift, and if you didn’t like it, wanted more, or didn’t get the one you want, you could buy/sell the minis to other players. Pretty much made everyone happy because there was RNG and it was fun, but for those who didn’t like RNG had the option to just buy the one they want.
Except that in Guild Wars 1, birthday were the main way to get minis…and bring them into the world. That’s simply not true here. So if the entire situation has changed, why would you still expect the same present?
I expect that when I buy from a company I get the same kind of appreciation from them as long as that company is around. Not that I am not “grateful” for the birthday gift, but the fact that as a company they used to do this for their players each year to show their appreciation for being a loyal fan each year, it’s disappointing to see they went cheap.
And don’t say “it’s a different game” because plenty of important and fun traditions from GW1 were transferred over, such as Wintersday. This was one they transferred over but as I said, went cheap on, and it’s rather disappointing to a customer and fan of 7 years.
But you’re not addressing my point. In Guild Wars 1 minis were rarer and thus more special. You’re holding on to that definition.
The question is what percentage of players really care about minis. I admittedly cared about them more in Guild Wars 1 than Guild Wars 2. Because in Guild Wars 2 I have 50 of them before my first birthday ever hit. So a mini wouldn’t be special to me personally. It’s a different situation not just a different game. You expect the same response from the company, even though minis are so easy to attain here, compared to Guild Wars 1. I don’t expect that.
The birthday booster, on the other hand, is a better result for me, particularly because I have so many of them. I get to have magic find boost, which gives me more chance of valuable stuff for days on end (particularly because if you log out, it doesn’t keep counting). I have weeks of boost, compared to a mini on each character.
While I understand you’d prefer a mini, I’m personally minied out. I don’t need another mini. More drops for the new upgrade however (which will possible increase my magic find permanently)? That I welcome.
It’s just a different perspective.
Wow speaks volume about the player base.To think that someone would need to post on the forum to look for a dungeon party.Good job ANET.Good job.
That’s because dungeons have been here since launch and the invasion content is here for two weeks and then slowing down. So everyone is trying to do the new content.
I tried to get a group for an older dungeon in WoW once and I couldn’t do it. Why? Because it was older content.
Nothing to see here, folks, move along.
But a treadmill, by definition, never ends. So if legendary is the final tier, then it can’t be a treadmill, because it’s final. That’s a definition.
You can call a bird a stone, but a bird isn’t a stone.
Legendary is not a gear tier. Legendary is a prestige skin. Legendary stats are not different than the stats of whatever the highest tier is. Thus, it cannot be thought of as a final tier. If ANet never adds another tier beyond Ascended, then Ascended would be the highest tier. We don’t yet know if that will or won’t be the case.
No definition of treadmill that I can find includes “never ends” as part of it. A treadmill does include an endless belt as one of its components. The belt is important to the treadmill’s function, but it is not the purpose of the treadmill.
That said, the function of a treadmill is to allow or cause the user to walk in place. However, the purpose of a treadmill is not to be “always on.” It is to power something or get health results. The purpose of a gear treadmill in an MMO is to promote the game’s longevity in the face of players who desire to play the game a lot. That is the purpose of Ascended.
Sometimes, people argue about the meaning of words to sidetrack from the real issues being discussed. I prefer to talk about purpose and intent rather than about whether a word that has been altered to fit a particular context is being used “properly” or not. The rapid evolution of words in popular culture means that their meaning cannot be set in stone. Thus, discussing the meanings of words is important in discourse so we know what each other is talking about. However, that discussion should be tangential to the real issues, rather than being used as a means to win an argument.
Legendary is a final tier, because Anet has said if you get a legendary it will be equal to the final tier of gear. I have a legendary trident on my necro and a legendary rifle on my engineer.
That means the day this new tier goes life, I have top tier gear without grinding or farming. You can say it’s not a tier all you want…but it works as a tier. And therefore, it’s not a treadmill, or wouldn’t be if ascended armor works the same way.
I see you ignored the rest of my post. Nice dodge of the real issues in favor of more arguments about semantics.
Okay I didn’t think I’d have to respond to the rest of it, because it makes no sense.
What is a treadmill? It’s something you walk on and you get nowhere. Why do you get nowhere…because it’s just the illusion of progression. This is why it’s called a treadmill. By definition it has no end, because companies keep coming out with gear. I’m pretty sure that most people understand that.
A treadmill isn’t doing something until you get to the end, because if you can get to the end, it’s not a treadmill.
I didn’t have a lot of time when I responded to the first part of your post, and I have more time now…so explain to me.
How is a treadmill something the stops. Because saying the definition doesn’t include endless blows my mind completely. That’s the whole point of using a treadmill as an analogy. If they wanted an end they’d have used an escalator.
Treadmill is used because it perfectly fits in WoW and its clones and in GW2 now.
You get a lot of crap thrown at you and you go nowhere just walking in place. But if you stop walking you fall off.
You should get a bit more experience in MMOs before trying to discuss.
But then ignorance is bliss for you.
More insults from a guy who doesn’t have a valid point to make.
I have people in my guild who aren’t on the gear treadmill. They’re not on the achievement point treadmill. They log in, they do a few things, they log out. Easy right.
Some of those people have run the occasional dungeon with me, including Arah.
I’d love to see this in other games. Someone that doesn’t log in, doesn’t gear up, and tries to run the current raid or even the current dungeon. It’s not possible in most games…it is possible here.
With the exception of high level fractals, which were designed for grinders specifically, can you explain to me what content is denied people wearing rares. I’d really like to know.
The reward clearly isn’t universally bad. Some are enjoying it.
When I open my eyes, I see a lvl 20 scroll, a birthday booster, and a Queen Jennah mini. The extra minis and scrolls aren’t of any use to me, but the boosters can be. Thus, I see a positive outcome. A different mini for each gift like in GW1 would have certainly been more interesting. However, I see no reason to become more than momentarily unimpressed and certainly no reason to become angry.
snip
I agree with you and everyone else that there were valuable gifts in the birthday present. I’m not angry at ArenaNet, I just think it was kinda cheap and easy to give out identical minis instead of keeping the mystery of random chance. And yes, I know a lot of people are screaming about rng, I’m not one of them. I don’t seem to do very well, but I don’t mind it (maybe because I played D&D).
So yeah, I’m just basically providing feedback to ArenaNet that I would’ve preferred a random mini to 8 identical ones. ArenaNet has the choice to do whatever they want with that feedback, but it’s definitely not a sense of ‘entitlement’.
Yes, there was RNG with the original birthday gifts…but at least it wasn’t “you’re stuck with what you get RNG”. I think that’s what most people (at least myself) dislike about the RNG in this game…most of the RNG stuff is account/character bound.
The nice thing about GW1 birthday gifts was there was a variety of minis from each yearly birthday gift, and if you didn’t like it, wanted more, or didn’t get the one you want, you could buy/sell the minis to other players. Pretty much made everyone happy because there was RNG and it was fun, but for those who didn’t like RNG had the option to just buy the one they want.
Except that in Guild Wars 1, birthday were the main way to get minis…and bring them into the world. That’s simply not true here. So if the entire situation has changed, why would you still expect the same present?