Guild Wars 2

RebelYell.7132:

marnick.4305:

In all seriousness… it was the exact same in GW1. I don’t know what you expected but you obviously didn’t do your research. If you’re leaving a well-alive and thriving game because of that … sure feel free. I’m not sure TESO will give you what you wanted though.

In the end, it’s almost impossible to create an MMO without RNG. I’m happy it’s only for cosmetics, while stats can be farmed in a definitive non-RNG way. That’s a huge improvement over , well, every other game on the market I guess.

You can get fairly far along in the HoM progression without grinding money or relying on a rare drop. I know around Prophecies the game was all about Underworld farming and all that boring stuff the OP is complaining about, but who the hell asked for Prophecies 2?

Till you get to the lucky title track, where you have to open chests while breaking lockpick upon lockpick. Till you need minis and you have all the whites and blues. Till you need more armor, like Vabbian and Obsidian.

The HoM had plenty of grind to it, and some RNG as well with reguards to lockpicks. Most people never did max out the lucky title track.

Edit: More to the point there were TONS of rare rare skins in Guild Wars 1 that were really REALLY hard to get. Celestial compass, bone staff, voltaic spear, frog sceptor and plenty I don’t remember off the top of my head.

We failed a guild mission because of the update. We ended up being in the middle of it, thinking we still had 20 minute left before the update and BAM. Seriously we needed like 2 minutes more before it kicked us out.

If we’d known there was going to be an earlier reset, we’d not have started.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Vayne.8563:

When someone comes along and says there’s no excuse for a game not to have a dungeon finder, when in fact, very few games have launched with a dungeon finder to date, it implies that somehow this game is different from others that came before it. The implication is that this game lacks something others had included. In this case, this isn’t the case.

And I’m happy to leave up my post about anecdotal, since I happen to be right about it. If I experience something and relate the experience, that is in fact direct knowledge. In history courses, when you interview someone who was there, and record the results, that’s direct knowlege. It’s when you talk to someone who talked to someone that it becomes anecdotal.

When you write your thesis, I’m sure they’ll explain it to you.

1) You didn’t experience anything, you read some ranting on another game’s forums.
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence.
In the general context of the word and common usage:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anecdotal

What university are you a doctorate of btw?

Oh I’m not a doctor. I’m a professional editor who’s worked with academics and I’ve published a fair bit of work myself (though it’s unlikely you’d have read of or heard of any of it).

The problem with your definition is one of context. If I a say something that is demonstrably provable, like Rift didn’t have a dungeon finder at launch and that the forums had a kittenstorm about it, well that’s provable. Not just by my memory but something you can actually research. It is, in fact, a fact. There’s nothing annecdotal about a researchable fact ever.

Something only because anecdotal if it can’t be researched or proved. If I tell you that the earth isn’t flat, that’s not really anecdotal, nor is anything that’s a matter of public record.

What you’re trying to do is use the word anecdotal to diminish what I’m saying which is completely disingenuous and you ought to probably not do that. It’s a fact that Rift had dungeons at launch and didn’t have a dungeon finder at launch. It’s not anecdotal at all. No fact is.

People keep talking about WoW and Guild Wars 1, and Guild Wars 2 is, of course, neither. It’s nothing like WoW at all. In fact, it’s far more like Guild Wars 1 than WoW, in spite of the ascended gear.

But Anet also wanted to create a playground for different people to play different ways. And what people said are right. The hard core grinders will chew through this content. But what about the casual grinders (and there are plenty of them).

I’ve said this before on this forum, but it bears repeating. Everyone thinks that what they want out of a game is what the majority want. We can’t ALL be right.

There are people, a LOT of people who don’t want gear progression. And there are a LOT of people who do. We don’t know exact numbers, but it’s obvious that some people like it and some people don’t. No one can say which camp has more members, but I suspect that, of the people who care, it’s roughly even. Certainly each group is too big for Anet to ignore.

So what is the solution. Put some gentle gear progression into the game, space it out, give those who want it something to work towards, while not screwing over those who don’t want it, by gating content. It’s a compromise.

Now it’s true the top percentage and the bottom percentage will leave. People so incensed with gear progression will not stay even if it’s small and relatively harmless. And the true progression people will also leave, but not all of them…just the die-hard top percentage.

And all the people in the middle will keep playing. Some will keep playing feeling vaguely uncomfortable and some will keep playing and never even know these arguments exist…which would be most players in my opinion.

See most players don’t think deeply about their gaming experience at all. Most players don’t read forums. Most players play a bit, do some stuff, hang with friends and have fun. Then they log off.

Anet can’t afford to appease only the ends of any spectrum if they want this game to be the “big” game they’re trying to make. You could argue they shouldn’t try to make the big game and should just cater to a niche market, which is pretty much what they ended up doing with Guild Wars 1. It had a very very loyal, relatively large audience, but they couldn’t have 270 devs working on it to make the “super game” they wanted.

Those who played Guild Wars 1 and are die hard fans will leave, but not all of us. The top percentage of people who simply either refuse to adapt, can’t adapt, or hate the game.

One thing is this though. This game was aimed at a PVe crowd far more than a PvP crowd and, in my opinion, by and large the PVe crowd from GW 1 is happier with the game than the PvP crowd. And you know, I don’t blame them. The PvP aspect is much further from the original Guild Wars than PVe is.

Me, I’m a Pve’er and I’m having fun. I actually PvP more here than I did in Guild Wars 1 because it’s more casual friendly, which a lot of PvPers don’t love. But the bottom line is, no matter how much we all feel the game should represent our own interests, the odds are there is another group just or almost as big that feel the same thing.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Raine.1394:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

Don’t know if you’ve seen the video on power creep from extra credits so am linking it. A sense of progression and fresh new content are necessary in a game, but vertical progression (power creep) brings far too much extra baggage along for the ride. It is actually more a problem masquerading as a solution. A non-vertical sense of progression does take more effort to produce but is more rewarding long-term for both developers and players.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Ok, they put into words what I’ve been trying to say. Thanks for that link.

The term “incomparables” is exactly what I meant when I said “vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.”

I honestly think this is what the devs in Guild Wars 2 are trying to accomplish. Keep it ticking over gradually, with different ways to get stuff, so that no one is massively disadvantaged, but you can keep working on your character, statwise. Nice a slow, a trickle at a time.

That’s not what the video is suggesting. What it’s suggesting is instead of working towards stat-boosting gear, how about working towards new talents or skills?

Not necessarily where GW1 went by killing named mobs, but as occasional drops, chest rewards, what have you.

Of course you’ll have the instant-gratification people complaining that they have to “grind” for them, but they aren’t necessary to complete the games. Just different ways to fight.

I’m honestly pretty bored with the fighting mechanics of the same ol’ 5 spells of the GS, for instance. It would be kind of fun to be able to turn the GS into a support or control weapon with some work.

I have no characters that use a single weapon. I swap them out. Staying with one weapon would bore me. I also use environmental weapons too. AA (alternate advancement) is done in some games, and might be done here as well. The problem with that is always balance.

But I suspect we’ll see more skills and weapons in the first upgrade, when they get around to doing it.

I don’t have one main…I have different mains for different things. For example, my mesmer is my dungeon and fractal main. She’s great a group, but she’s not much fun to run around Orr with. Not as much fun as my warrior. So I put some zerker gear on my warrior, just to run around Orr, usually with someone else.

But I don’t really love the zerker warrior when I’m visiting low level zones, and having fun with the guild. For one thing he kills things too quick and it can annoy others. So I play my ranger most of the time, when I’m just hanging out in world.

Lately I’ve been working a lot on my necro when I solo in world, because she’s going to get my second legendary weapon (yes I’m working on getting two of them at the same time…kill me now).

I don’t know how people can live with just one main. Then again, I have more time to play than most people.

I do them when they’re up and someone annouces it in guild. I also occassionally do a single CoF run.

I thoroughly uninspired by most dungeons in this game. I don’t really have fun doing them. There’s far more camraderie I’ve experienced at events than I have in speed runs. Far more. Sometimes there’s almost a party or festive atmosphere.

Farming gold is among the most annoying things I can think of doing. Farming it with four strangers who I have to work together with? I’d rather solo the world, or hang with my guild.

Mind you, I don’t really get the people who wait for an hour for a boss, but I guess some of them are doing things in real life and just come and sit down when the boss has arrived.

At any rate, I don’t understand why people buy a game to farm instead of play.

Nope. I don’t really play much SPvP. Fun for a brief diversion but I prefer the open world, lore and story.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Raine.1394:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

Don’t know if you’ve seen the video on power creep from extra credits so am linking it. A sense of progression and fresh new content are necessary in a game, but vertical progression (power creep) brings far too much extra baggage along for the ride. It is actually more a problem masquerading as a solution. A non-vertical sense of progression does take more effort to produce but is more rewarding long-term for both developers and players.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Ok, they put into words what I’ve been trying to say. Thanks for that link.

The term “incomparables” is exactly what I meant when I said “vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.”

I honestly think this is what the devs in Guild Wars 2 are trying to accomplish. Keep it ticking over gradually, with different ways to get stuff, so that no one is massively disadvantaged, but you can keep working on your character, statwise. Nice a slow, a trickle at a time.

Jordy.1570:

Vayne.8563:

Lévis.5489:

Old Anet cashshop :

-Costumes linked to events.
-Those events had new skins, greens and minis available as drops + via tokens earned in the game.

New, Nexon lite cash shop:

-Costumes linked to events
-Those events have little to no rewards (Karkas event) .
-Have to gamble in the cash shop for a new weapon skin token reward (Good boys , buying 50 + keys)
-If skins are craftable , you need a mystic forge recipe that is on par with foefire’s essence mystic forge recipe
-Free weapons are skins no one want (Wintersday weapons)

I don’t know about you, but I got a lot of stuff out of the Karka event, including a precusor, The Hunter. A lot of people did get precursors and named exotics and other stuff out of that. And an exotic earring and a 20 slot bag.

I’m not sure what you wanted, but a lot of people loved the rewards from that event. Mind you the event itself sucked, but that’s a different story.

but thats exactly the problem. some ppl get a precurser that is worth 600g, while others r ending up with nearly nothing, compared to the 600g….

there has never been a game before with such big loot gaps…..

5 ppl who did exactly the same get totally different rewards…. rng is not rng…. .gw2 has definitly the most horrible rng ever….

in every other game ppl get nearly the same rewards by doing the same thing…. there has never been such a big gap…..

in this game here its just insane….. its not creating fun to waste all your stuff u earned before by burning it in the toilet….

Just about every single MMO has these loot gaps. In fact, in most MMOs, you don’t even get your own rewards, there’s a chest, rewards pop up and you roll to see which of you gets it. You could end up getting the exact item you need and want in a chest and you roll for it and some other guy in your party rolls higher and you get NOTHING.

There are so many games out there were one guy can get a very expensive, super drop and you get nothing. It’s more common than people getting equal rewards…at least in MMOs.

Even in Guild Wars 1 it was true. You could do a dungeon with someone and get a totally worthless gold and he could have the Frog scepter.

rizzo.1079:

Vayne.8563:

Your first CoF run will net you two rares, since you can change in the tokens for level 70 rares. The next run will get you another rare. That’s three. Plus what drops of course.

Standing around waiting for events is more fun that banging my head against the wall that is any dungeon. I’d rather be standing around alive than be dead, unressable and a weight to the other 4 guys running the dungeon.

I honestly don’t like this change, but since I think you can get the big chest more than once/day/event I can see why you had to do it.

Lysico.4906:

Stop standing around then. Go do something else. For the folks that cry they have no time and “needed” the Maw on a fast timer, you could do a speed dungeon run in less time, get better loot and more money.

Every dungeon run I"ve tried takes an hour+. I’ve never done a dungeon in even close to the 30mins the Maw respawned on before. Memorizing dungeons in order to speed run them is work, I do enough work when I’m working thank you.

CoF path 1 takes 15 minutes tops. Really. It’s one of the easier dungeons. You learn the run, you can do it in 15 minutes. You’ll get at least 2 rares for your effort, if you want to spend your tokens that way, plus whatever drops.

If you run it a second time, you get another rare (due to the diminishing returns on the tokens).

Some people can run this dungeon in under ten minutes. Maybe it’ll take you 20 the first time. But it’s doable.

People in my guild run that dungeon sometimes at night, before bed to relax.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Astralporing.1957:

Shootsfoot.9276:

See, here’s the issue…you’re taking your opinion of what makes the game great and applying it to everybody when it’s just not possible to do so. If what you are saying really was the hooking part of the game, then after 4 years (arbitrary number) I wouldn’t be logging into an essentially empty Lion’s Arch in GW. The 6 million who bought the game would still be there.

There were still lot of people playing at the time of Winds of change. People left only after it became clear that due to GW2 there will be no more support for GW1 anymore.
The game to live does have to change – new expansions and content are necessary. Balance tweaks are (unfortunately) also necessary. As long as GW received those, no other form of “progress” was needed. Without continued support, it is as good as dead (though the dying stage migh last for some time).
It wasn’t lack of gear treadmill that killed GW1, but it’s abandonment by Anet.

Like Clay stated, the only real thing that kept GW going was its PvP.

And its PvP is much better than GW2’s PvP.

I think one of the biggest misses by Anet in this game was not keeping PvP skills and PvE skills separate. Much easier to balance that way.

At any rate, I love this game, it’s only 6 months old and I hope to see improvements every month.

See I disagree with this. I don’t think PvP kept Guild Wars 1 going eventually. It sure started out that way, but in the end, where did Anet concentrate it’s efforts. Because by looking at that, you can be sure they knew where the sales and money were coming from.

Yes, the PvP scene was die hard, I get that. But as time went on and more and more PVe was added, PVe became extremely important to the success of the game. The costumes in the shops were certainly more bought by PVe’ers than PvPers. Start looking at how much time and energy Anet took, and you’ll see the shift from PvP to PVe. That’s why there’s this huge, huge world in Guild Wars 2, and PvP got off to such a slow start.

I believe the PvP will get a lot better, it’s only just starting. But PVe is what drove Guild Wars 1 for a whole lot of people.

clay.7849:

This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.

Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.

In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.

Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.

Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.

It doesn’t matter if WoW can or can’t be repeated. Guild Wars 2 isn’t like WoW in a a LOT of significant ways. You can’t just say a bit of vertical progression will make Guild Wars 2 like WoW. There are a ton of substantial differences. Having played WoW (and disliked it) I can tell you these games are very different.

Just not having a trinity makes a world of difference. Not gating content. No tagging mobs, individual resource nodes, no standard quests…there really is a world of difference. Limited skill selection bound to your weapon, active dodge, I could go on all day. Hell there aren’t even factions and you’re not farming faction rep. It’s just different.

But as I said, it’s not just WoW. It’s WoW and all the games that came after WoW. You played Guild Wars 1 and avoided it. I’ve played Aion, WoW, Rift, Lotro, Perfect World, DDO, AoC and a bunch of others. The problem is ALL those games trained people to think in terms of vertical progression, not one or two. Every single one of them.

People coming from those games, by and large, want to chase a carrot to some degree. Not all, but most of them. Should Anet close the door to every single person coming from those games that didn’t like Guild Wars 1? I don’t think so.

Anet made a compromise. It’s a form of weaning people off that gear based type of game. Some people are so stuck on the gear thing, they think the stats make that much of a difference. Those people we’re going to lose. But some will stay.

What you can’t do is ignore the bulk of potential players, just because Guild Wars 1 players won’t adapt. It really is that simple. If I were Anet, I’d rather lose some of the Guild Wars 1 players than the bulk of the people coming from other games.

MMOs are big business. Anet has to support a development team of 270 people, and that’s a lot of dosh. They won’t make it with just Guild Wars 1 players, no matter how many copies it sold.

To put it in perspective, Guild Wars sold 7 million copies of 7 years. Diable 3 sold that in the first week. Guild Wars 2 sold much much faster than Guild Wars 1, but people who bought it weren’t just Guild Wars 1 players.

Anet is going to lose a percentage of people on the edges…the die hard grinders and the die hard horizontal progressionists. But they’ll keep most of the people in the middle.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.

7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.

One of the best selling PC games ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.

I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.

So I have 50/50 and GWAMM because I was never a fan? How does one get GWAMM without being a fan? You think I played maybe for a week. You want to come into Guild Wars and see my EL kunnevang tonic, maybe?

Guild Wars never took off. I say this because it’s true. When I say take off, it didn’t have the numbers to do what Anet wanted to do with it. It made a lot of sales and it had a die hard following, but in case you weren’t around then, once heroes were introduced, people found it harder and harder to find groups.

PvPers started leaving because of balance decisions with the newer professions. Some people started leaving when Ursan was nerfed or when perma-sin was nerfed. In the end, there were a whole lot less people playing, and then it picked up again with the HoM calculator because people were excited.

The only time it was really hopping was during things like Canthan New Year, when people would log on to get celestial pets.

But I watched some very big guilds whittle away to nothing in my time there.

If I wasn’t a fan, why would I have spent so much on in game costumes from the shop?

Ok, so you were a fan. Sorry to offend you so much about a game. :/

Anyway, I agree with you about the heroes and the PvP. Those were all things ANet did that were detrimental to the game. However, to say it didn’t “take off” or wasn’t successful is simply wrong. GW1 had some of the best numbers of any online multiplayer game to date.

Also, the one thing you fail to mention, which is kind of the crux of this thread, is that it didn’t die because of no vertical gear progression.

It never appealed to the “masses” though. See I have kids in the house and I know what’s talked about. Both the kids left Guild Wars to play WoW, along with all their friends. Eventually, you’d walk into stores and Guild Wars would be in the discount rack.

I went the other way. I left WoW to play Guild Wars. Do you know how many characters I had in Guild Wars? 37, over two accounts. Every single one of them finished Factions and Eye of the North, and most of them finished Prophecies or Nightfall or both. Yeah, I was a die hard fan. There were things I felt could have been done better, but I was a fan.

But I also watched what people were doing. There was WoW with it’s ten million active accounts (Guild Wars sold 7 million copies over a period of 7 years) and a zillion WoW clones. Guild Wars with more of a cult thing. Those who played it thought it was the bees knees (as we say downunder) but a zillion other people thought it was a joke…it was known largely in as a PvP game. A lot of people didn’t even know it had PVe. Frustrated the hell out of me.

The point is, for Anet to take the game to the next step and really create a huge world and content, it would have to appeal to a larger number….remember Anet supported a staff of about 50 people, not 270. In order for them to go where they wanted and take the game to the next level, they had to go mainstream.

And mainstream was my sons, and all the other guys who got trained not just by WoW, but they 87 gazillion games copying WoW. It sucks but that’s how I see it.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

Sorry Vayne, I can’t agree with you on this one.

7 years of active population, 4 of which were after the last expansion was released.

One of the best selling PC games ever made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games

There is nothing about GW1 that failed or any evidence to show it never “took off”. In fact, all the evidence points completely to the contrary.

I don’t think you were ever a GW1 fan, I think you just say that because you think it helps your arguments somehow.

So I have 50/50 and GWAMM because I was never a fan? How does one get GWAMM without being a fan? You think I played maybe for a week. You want to come into Guild Wars and see my EL kunnevang tonic, maybe?

Guild Wars never took off. I say this because it’s true. When I say take off, it didn’t have the numbers to do what Anet wanted to do with it. It made a lot of sales and it had a die hard following, but in case you weren’t around then, once heroes were introduced, people found it harder and harder to find groups.

PvPers started leaving because of balance decisions with the newer professions. Some people started leaving when Ursan was nerfed or when perma-sin was nerfed. In the end, there were a whole lot less people playing, and then it picked up again with the HoM calculator because people were excited.

The only time it was really hopping was during things like Canthan New Year, when people would log on to get celestial pets.

But I watched some very big guilds whittle away to nothing in my time there.

If I wasn’t a fan, why would I have spent so much on in game costumes from the shop?

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

rizzo.1079:

I’ve only seen the ingame population growing since I got the game in November. Are you guys on really servers or something?

Is it because of growth or guesting?

Must be some growth since I’m getting new people in my guild. Like complete newbies. Also a few returned people who left and said they were never coming back. They were wrong. lol

Yet after this last patch not once have I been put into overflow when after every other patch all I saw was overflow.

Right, because the biggest aspect of this patch was WvW, and I was in queues at times when I haven’t been in queues in weeks. lol

Lévis.5489:

Vayne.8563:

Lévis.5489:

Old Anet cashshop :

-Costumes linked to events.
-Those events had new skins, greens and minis available as drops + via tokens earned in the game.

New, Nexon lite cash shop:

-Costumes linked to events
-Those events have little to no rewards (Karkas event) .
-Have to gamble in the cash shop for a new weapon skin token reward (Good boys , buying 50 + keys)
-If skins are craftable , you need a mystic forge recipe that is on par with foefire’s essence mystic forge recipe
-Free weapons are skins no one want (Wintersday weapons)

I don’t know about you, but I got a lot of stuff out of the Karka event, including a precusor, The Hunter. A lot of people did get precursors and named exotics and other stuff out of that. And an exotic earring and a 20 slot bag.

I’m not sure what you wanted, but a lot of people loved the rewards from that event. Mind you the event itself sucked, but that’s a different story.

So, it all return to RNG, yet again.

Sure it was RNG, but everyone who played that event on an 80th level character did get the box, did get the exotic earring, and did get a couple of yellows or exotics. It’s not bad rewards, even if you didn’t get a precusor.

Shootsfoot.9276:

rizzo.1079:

I’ve only seen the ingame population growing since I got the game in November. Are you guys on really servers or something?

Is it because of growth or guesting?

Must be some growth since I’m getting new people in my guild. Like complete newbies. Also a few returned people who left and said they were never coming back. They were wrong. lol

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

The OP makes my point better than I do. Here’s a guy who’s saying there’s no real vertical progression in Guild Wars 2, or at least not nearly enough. People from other games aren’t seeing this nefarious vertical progression that Guild Wars 1 players see. Guild Wars one players see the glass half empty, when in fact it’s not quite, but almost full.

There is some vertical progression in this game, but without the gated content, it’s meaningless. At least the OP seems to think so.

There isn’t much vertical progression in this game. Even the black eye ascended gear gave ArenaNet loyalists, it still has not reached the levels of other MMO’s. True.

But, what is inherently good about gear progression that isn’t about making players feel more powerful than other players? Do you honestly think there is a need for a gear treadmill in this game because other games do it? Remember, you said yourself you were a GW1 fanboy at some point – so do you think that game needed vertical gear progression? Clearly, it did quite well without it.

I’m still a Guild Wars 1 fan. And look at Guild Wars 1. It did okay…but it never really took off. It spent a lot of time wandering in limbo, until we ended up with expansions likes Hearts of the North and Winds of Change. No thanks.

I’ve thought about this a lot and I realize that if I want a game that does what I want it to do, a game to be healthy and alive and coming out with more content, it needs more players.

Anet found out the hard way that the “masses” won’t just go for cosmetic items. They tried and failed. People weren’t going for legendaries, and they were leaving the game, because once they maxed out their characters, they were done. They were trained this way by other games.

So Anet made “the compromise”. Let’s give the grinders 1 dungeon, FoTM that they could do. And we’ll limit the progression. Make it not so bad. This keeps those guys playing, doesn’t particularly affect guys like me, and the only people really unhappy were those who didn’t see the need for the change. They didn’t see that people really were leaving until the Fractals came out. People wanted something to grind away at to get better gear. I don’t personally want or need it. But I want at least one MMO that doesn’t have the gated content that forces me to grind for that stuff, and I’ve found it.

You can look at what Anet did in two ways. They betrayed you (personally, because like, they know you) or they did what any business would do. They tried to keep everyone happy. The stat guys would like higher stats and the cosmetic guys would like no stat increase at all.

As a compromise, I think Anet did okay. The only real issue was that they should have come out with numerous ways to get this gear in the first place.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I thought all the dungeons were instanced. Except maybe mini-dungeons?

Right, mini dungeons aren’t instanced at all.

Lévis.5489:

Old Anet cashshop :

-Costumes linked to events.
-Those events had new skins, greens and minis available as drops + via tokens earned in the game.

New, Nexon lite cash shop:

-Costumes linked to events
-Those events have little to no rewards (Karkas event) .
-Have to gamble in the cash shop for a new weapon skin token reward (Good boys , buying 50 + keys)
-If skins are craftable , you need a mystic forge recipe that is on par with foefire’s essence mystic forge recipe
-Free weapons are skins no one want (Wintersday weapons)

I don’t know about you, but I got a lot of stuff out of the Karka event, including a precusor, The Hunter. A lot of people did get precursors and named exotics and other stuff out of that. And an exotic earring and a 20 slot bag.

I’m not sure what you wanted, but a lot of people loved the rewards from that event. Mind you the event itself sucked, but that’s a different story.

Join a guild that takes casual people. Then there will be people around to group with without you having to wait to spam chat.

rizzo.1079:

Honestly, if people quit because of FotM(a part of the game nobody has to do if they don’t want to) and Ascended gear(silly stat increase, not real vertical progression), then that’s fine. If you’re going to quit a game over silly crap like that then I don’t think I want to play with you anyhow.

People quit because they felt betrayed. Lied to. Not because of ascended gear directly. They worried it was the tip of the iceberg, a sign of things to come. Well, it’s a bunch of months later and it still hasn’t come. But people keep telling me it will.

I agree, I think it’s a storm in a teacup. That said, I do understand why those people left.

The OP makes my point better than I do. Here’s a guy who’s saying there’s no real vertical progression in Guild Wars 2, or at least not nearly enough. People from other games aren’t seeing this nefarious vertical progression that Guild Wars 1 players see. Guild Wars one players see the glass half empty, when in fact it’s not quite, but almost full.

There is some vertical progression in this game, but without the gated content, it’s meaningless. At least the OP seems to think so.

A lot of people did indeed leave in November. It’s a fact. A lot of people got the game for Christmas.

The people who left, who were disenfranchised with the vertical progression than came with the fractals was a relatively decent sized hit to the game’s population. It seemed less for a while., then started going up. At least, it looks that way to me.

The thing is, the people who got the game after the fractals launched, with the ascended gear, never knew the game without it. They didn’t know enough to be kitten off, so they had less reason to leave. Some of them even like FotM.

Bottom line? The population has fluctuated, but from my observation seems higher now than it was at the end of November. Not as high as launch, obviously, when everyone was in one zone, but not that far from pre November numbers, and maybe higher.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Bad logic is bad logic. If the numbers would good, and they annouced it and they had a sudden drop in numbers, then they’d look bad, which is another reason it’s not announced. It works this way in lots of industries, btw.

Oh, but the numbers were good, and they did announce them (the 3 mil copies sold). Only later they decided to be far less informative, which suggests something did change (and not for the better).

Your logic would be valid if there was no initial announcement, but it’s obvious now that Anet has nothing against revealing the numbers… as long as they are good.

They didn’t announce it just to announce it. The numbers were in a quarterly report for a public company, namely NCsoft. They didn’t trumpet it or shout it from the rooftops. They did what all public companies do. They report to their investors.

All companies are required to do that whether they do well or not.

BadHabitZz.1856:

Vayne as i undestood you like FoTM, ppl who are complaining about Living story and Guild mission are mostly the ppl who loves FoTM beacuse with FoTM patch they felt like the game is going right direction, but after recent updates i think they are just worried that the game is going to be all about those 2 stuffs which they dont like.
My friends once told me that anet is planing adding new fractals, i get that they dont want fractals become end-game in GW2 so maybe some other dungeon (OUTSIDE LA, the loadings are killing me and we have beatiuful cites with no players in them…)

Vayne, i know iam mention you again in my post pls dont take it as some attack i acually like your posts you have some good points there, even if i dont agree with some of them…

There are people who hate guild missions and people who like them. I’m not at all worried about the living story stuff, because frankly, that’s not a big deal either way. Most MMOs don’t have monthly content updates at all. The big updates are usually when an expansion comes out.

All Anet is doing is providing busywork. Nothing more. Till they can produce more content which takes time. Rift did the same exact thing. Stupid long events that did nothing but acted like more dailies for different currencies every month. And they did it for long enough until they could make a full fledged raid, and then later an expansion.

Guild Wars 2 is doing the same thing. They’ve had one major content patch since then, which was the fractals. I’d say it’s right on schedule.

The problem is people expect big monthly updates, but no game provides big monthly updates. The game is moving slowly. People don’t have patience.

But there’s no monthly fee and they can go play something else and come back and play the new content. I’m not seeing a problem here.

Smifer.8095:

Vayne.8563:

I think the whole point of this is to stop people from doing nothing but waiting around for events, or that event. While some people do like to do that, it’s probably not what Anet intended for a play style.

If they did all boss event completely random it would promote more people to stand around waiting for it to start as that would be the only way you could know if it was about to start.

As of now if I see there is 1h until the pre event for a boss I want to kill then that means i got about 50min freetime to do what I want before going there and wait but if I didnt know how long until pre event then I would be forced to stand there waiting so I dont risk missing the event.

Vayne.8563:

One of the big problems in recent times is people complaining about overflow servers and lag during events. I’m pretty sure Anet is trying to stop stuff like that (lag in the case of the Maw, not overflow) by making it less appealing as events go.

I mean, sure it was easy money, basically. Too easy for what you got, which is why everyone hung around there. Now Anet has made some changes to make it harder.

Personally I dont find dragon rewards to easy I rather find the other content lacking in that appartment asuming ofc that this game was not meant to be a farm game for hardcore gamers instead a more casual game.

Do I do cof p1 then i might get a rare once every 6-10 run in time that would be 1h-2h for each rare, if I farm one bugged event in orr so I got a constant supply of risen to kill non stopp then I got a rare once every 1h but I had 100-120%mf so it would actually be about 2h for each rare, this means even if I have to wait 1h for a boss to spawn it would still be twice as fast to get rares compared to any other content in the game thus many people waits for the events instead of doing other things.

So would they give the bonus chest for each dungeon path once a day/account, make jumping puzzles have about 50%(depending on difficult) chance for a rare once a day/account and farming for example orr would give about one rare for each 1h for 0% mf and non bugged events then there would be way less people doing the boss events as they are now not the only way to get high gear reward instead people could do more what they would like to do and still be rewarded.

Your first CoF run will net you two rares, since you can change in the tokens for level 70 rares. The next run will get you another rare. That’s three. Plus what drops of course.

Rizzy.8293:

Anyone who says the game population is still strong is in denial.
try finding a group for story mode even on the external dungeon finder sites.

I’ve done it and gotten groups pretty fast. However, story mode simply isn’t rewarding. It takes too long for too little reward, so most people aren’t interested in doing it. Particularly because you can do explorable mode dungeons without unlocking story mode as long as others in the group have. I have a friend who hasn’t done a single story mode in the game, but he’s done almost all the explorable modes.

The big difference is the tokens you get. Most people do the dungeons for tokens and you get none in story mode.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Vayne.8563:

But you know, reading about stuff isn’t the same as experiencing it. I’m glad you’re reading at least, but you shouldn’t dismiss people that have had years of experience in a genre, based on stuff you’ve read.

Whether you run GW2 as a window or not, finding parties should never been a speed challenge where if u are Milliseconds too late, you won’t get into a PUG.

I applaud you for not editing your posts in order to hide your lack of understanding of the concept of “anecdotal” from another person’s perspective (I.e not you).

And to years of experience etc, why should that even matter? Even if I was a veteran WOW player, WOW problems are WOW problems. I am sure people came to GW2 because of dissatisfaction with some aspect of the game or they simply got sick of that game after eight years.

When someone comes along and says there’s no excuse for a game not to have a dungeon finder, when in fact, very few games have launched with a dungeon finder to date, it implies that somehow this game is different from others that came before it. The implication is that this game lacks something others had included. In this case, this isn’t the case.

And I’m happy to leave up my post about anecdotal, since I happen to be right about it. If I experience something and relate the experience, that is in fact direct knowledge. In history courses, when you interview someone who was there, and record the results, that’s direct knowlege. It’s when you talk to someone who talked to someone that it becomes anecdotal.

When you write your thesis, I’m sure they’ll explain it to you.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Vayne.8563:

So if this is the first MMO you’ve played, and you’re making comments about what’s commonly in other MMOs, you’re basically making it all up…got it.

As for first hand experience and anecdotal experience, they’re different. No one told me Rift didn’t have a dungeon finder at launch. I played Rift at launch and saw for myself that they didn’t have one. There’s nothing anecdotal about that at all, nor about the number of people protesting it.

I could add that every time dungeon finder is brought up on any forum, including Guild Wars 2 guru, there’s always a huge argument about it. You don’t have to take my word about it, just take a look at other forums.

I know I have.

No I am basing what I know off what I read in the upcoming future and since no other notable MMORPG launched in 2012 I have had no basis for comparison for 2012. But if you are referring to GW2 forums, I am quite sure more people want dungeon finder than people who vehemently oppose them.

To you it is not anecdotal, to the rest of the world it is. No disrespect to you, I am not sure you understand what the word means.

Actually I know exactly what anecdotal means.

When a person experiences something and relates it, that’s direct experience. If you repeat it, that’s anecdotal. Direct experience means you were there. I was there. Whether it’s anecdotal to you is irrelevant. You can either accept what I say, or call me a liar. I don’t really care, because you’ve already put yourself in a place where I can’t take you seriously.

As for dungeon finders in games that aren’t out yet, sure, Guild Wars 2 is a transitional game. So the games like SWToR which had instances but no instance finders (and instances are called dungeons in MMOs whether they’re dungeons or not usually), but that didn’t come with a grouping utility and that launched at the very end of last year and yes, was a AAA MMO.

TSW launched the month before Guild Wars 2 and I’m pretty sure that didn’t have a dungeon finder either.

Saying that in the future this will be a standard feature is not nearly the same as saying that it’s been a feature all along and GW 2 should have had it.

As for the gw2lfg.com, if you make your game a window temporarily and call up a browser, so you have both your browser and the game up at the same time, you won’t run into the same problem of tabbing back and forth and missing out.

But you know, reading about stuff isn’t the same as experiencing it. I’m glad you’re reading at least, but you shouldn’t dismiss people that have had years of experience in a genre, based on stuff you’ve read.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Vayne.8563:

A load of opposition from the same ppl you mean. You only quoted one game and the discussion from another game. How applicable is that?

Neverwinter seems to have dungeon finders on beta from their gameplay videos. I mean if the next few MMOs with dungeons do have dungeon finders, this totally invalidates your claims.

As of now, I can’t think of ten existing MMOs that had dungeon finders at launch. Maybe in the future, games will have them at launch, but since that game isn’t out yet, it invalidates what you’re saying.

Name three AAA MMOs that launched with dungeon finders. I doubt you can get even two, but let’s say three. Then we’ll see who is and who isn’t invalidated.

I wouldnt know about prior MMOs simply because GW2 is the 1st MMO I played. As for “AAA” MMOs, time will decide that and not based on some individual’s opinion

Vayne.8563:

I brought up Rift due to first hand experience instead of anecdotal experience.

That is the same thing. [/quote]

So if this is the first MMO you’ve played, and you’re making comments about what’s commonly in other MMOs, you’re basically making it all up…got it.

As for first hand experience and anecdotal experience, they’re different. No one told me Rift didn’t have a dungeon finder at launch. I played Rift at launch and saw for myself that they didn’t have one. There’s nothing anecdotal about that at all, nor about the number of people protesting it.

I could add that every time dungeon finder is brought up on any forum, including Guild Wars 2 guru, there’s always a huge argument about it. You don’t have to take my word about it, just take a look at other forums.

I know I have.

Edit: Also AAA MMO has nothing to do with how good an MMO is, but more to do with how much time/money went into creating it. It may not stand the test of time (though I believe it will) but that has nothing to do with a the moniker AAA.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Vayne.8563:

Rift had dungeons and no dungeon finder. I played Rift and there was a HUGE battle on the forums, and I mean huge, between people who wanted it and people who didn’t. Anyone on those forums back then would remember it, because it was so hostile on both sides.

You act like everyone in the world is in favor of dungeon finders, but there’s a load of opposition to them as well…particularly cross server ones.

That shouldn’t be a problem in Guild Wars 2, but I’m just saying, most games with dungeons don’t launch with dungeon finders, even today.

A load of opposition from the same ppl you mean. You only quoted one game and the discussion from another game. How applicable is that?

Neverwinter seems to have dungeon finders on beta from their gameplay videos. I mean if the next few MMOs with dungeons do have dungeon finders, this totally invalidates your claims.

As of now, I can’t think of ten existing MMOs that had dungeon finders at launch. Maybe in the future, games will have them at launch, but since that game isn’t out yet, it invalidates what you’re saying.

Name three AAA MMOs that launched with dungeon finders. I doubt you can get even two, but let’s say three. Then we’ll see who is and who isn’t invalidated.

I brought up Rift due to first hand experience instead of anecdotal experience.

Morthur.3894:

Hawkian.6580:

This was an extremely unsettling read. :-/

So far as I can tell, you pulled literally every number in this post except for the final “1500” completely out of thin air:
10%
100,000
20,000-50,000
50
a few thousand

It appears that you are estimating these numbers yourself based on anecdotal experience or just your own instincts, and not a single data source. If you want to engage in wild speculation of this nature, please start by saying something like, “I’m just making these numbers up, but…” or, “This is completely speculative, but…” so that people will not be mistaken into thinking what you’re saying is true.

Haha, sorry if I unsettled you with my post but since there are no official numbers the only two possible responses to this thread are either speculations or posting “I don’t know”. Since the latter would be boring I decided to speculate (as clearly indicated by my use of the term “guesstimate”).

And the numbers I’ve estimated are not totally random: it’s well known that the huge majority of people that buy MMOs (especially right on release) quit after the first month. That’s why I guesstimated 90% of the players quit.

The other numbers are guesstimated because of the server capacity and number of worlds. There are definitely not 10 million players (or there would have to be way more servers) and there are definitely not less then 10’000 (because then they’d be working on server merges ASAP to cut costs). There are likely also not 1’000’000 players because again, that would require 20’000 people per world and by my experience of server hosting and the capacity of zones (especially WvW) this would be far to many. Futhermore, many worlds are not “full” but only “medium” (and what that means in numbers is frankly anyone’s guess). Still – there are definitely more then 10’000 and less then 1’000’000 players and likely way way less (because 1 million would require over 30% of people that bought the game to still be playing which is clearly not the case).

That’s what brought me to the estimate of roughly 20-50k players (maybe 100k with luck during peaks).

Hawkian.6580:

But anyway… no numbers from the devs = it’s not going well. Otherwise they’d be hyping it to attract more investors for their future products and expansions etc.

I hate to dismiss this so handily, but this is deeply flawed logic. ArenaNet is not a publicly traded company. As long as their private investors and corporate owners are happy, there is no tangible benefit whatsoever to revealing sales information on a regular basis, whereas there are many potential benefits to intentionally withholding this information from the public.

Sure sure, they are not releasing any numbers because they want to be humble.. lol… come on… pull the other one mate. Again: If the numbers were impressive then the quacks from marketing would be the first to publish them to attract new players. That’s simply how it works. Why do you think that all successful MMOs are publishing numbers and as soon as they stop publishing them you can be sure that the numbers are not in their favour? The fact that the only numbers available for GW2 are initial sales (and other meaningless talk like “baseline players” etc. which are just euphemisms for “small playerbase”) should be enough of a hint for anyone that the numbers are not as healthy as Anet would have liked.

But it’s funny to see to what lengths people will go just to make themselves believe that their favourite game is thriving, that’s for sure. :-)

Bad logic is bad logic. If the numbers would good, and they annouced it and they had a sudden drop in numbers, then they’d look bad, which is another reason it’s not announced. It works this way in lots of industries, btw.

Another thought process is number of sales vs how many people have left. You say it’s well know that 90% of people leave a game, but I’m not sure that number is accurate at all. I suspect it’s greatly inflated.

90% might not resub to a pay to play game (though I think that’s unlikely too), but that says nothing about free to play or buy to play games. Because there’s no unsubscription.

Guild Wars 2 is still selling at least on Amazon.com (I think it’s the #2 computer RPG and the number 3 computer adventure game right now), and it’s still in the top 100 for computer products, which includes things like joysticks and mice and stuff. It’s in the 60s.

So a bunch of people buy the game and a bunch of people leave, okay, I get that. But people keep buying it. There’s lots of new people floating around.

And I know people that have left and have come back after not finding the grass greener on the other side after all.

Basically there’s no real data anyone can point to, but my server is pretty kitten busy, all day and all night.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Vayne.8563:

You act as if most games have a dungeon finder in place at launch. Most don’t. And I’ve yet to see a game that had something as efficient as gw2lfg.com whether you want to use it or not.

Using it, I’ve seldom waited more than five minutes to fill out a dungeon party. If you choose not to use it, that’s your own look out.

Define seldom. And it is possible to wait 30 min for a 6 min dungeon because by the time you Alt-tabbed back to the game to join a party, position has already been filled and this will occur frequently. People’s standards of efficiency may vary though.

As for “most” games not releasing with a dungeon finder, its probably because those games have no dungeons in the first place. I wonder if ESO and Neverwinter will come up Dungeon Finders on beta release.

Rift had dungeons and no dungeon finder. I played Rift and there was a HUGE battle on the forums, and I mean huge, between people who wanted it and people who didn’t. Anyone on those forums back then would remember it, because it was so hostile on both sides.

You act like everyone in the world is in favor of dungeon finders, but there’s a load of opposition to them as well…particularly cross server ones.

That shouldn’t be a problem in Guild Wars 2, but I’m just saying, most games with dungeons don’t launch with dungeon finders, even today.

I think the whole point of this is to stop people from doing nothing but waiting around for events, or that event. While some people do like to do that, it’s probably not what Anet intended for a play style.

One of the big problems in recent times is people complaining about overflow servers and lag during events. I’m pretty sure Anet is trying to stop stuff like that (lag in the case of the Maw, not overflow) by making it less appealing as events go.

I mean, sure it was easy money, basically. Too easy for what you got, which is why everyone hung around there. Now Anet has made some changes to make it harder.

I’m not so sure that’s bad new, though it will annoy some people for sure.

Might depend on server. I’ve done the maw on my server today (Tarnished Coast). What servers are people on who say it isn’t starting?

There are lots of Aussies on Tarnished Coast too…I’m in Australia and the server is busy round the clock.

I don’t think there’ll ever be a race change, due to the way personal stories work.

I’m one of the die-hard fan bois who everyone basically takes potshots at. Definitely take everything I say with a grain of salt. lol

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Everyone I know stopped playing the game completely. I’ve witness multiple guilds just die. Twitch viewers are lower than warhammer online some days and about about 20 times lower than games like runescape in viewers. Google searches have slowed down to match other “dead” mmos. Not to mention, NCsoft stock has actually consistently dropped since the release of GW2.

I guess the people I see on the server, pretty much everywhere, and the zergs in WvW must be completely imaginary. And it’s a whole lot more servers than Warhammer.

I think people who think the game is dying have no more evidence than people who think the game is thriving, but one thing for sure.

The forums get a lot of posts.

I’m not saying the game is dead, or unpopulated, i’m simply saying that I believe a ton of people have quit already. There could still be a few hundred thousand people still actively playing and you would without a doubt experience people everywhere. I just don’t think the game kept up with the hype. I also think people will call games that fail “another guild wars 2”, but mostly for its pathetic attempt at becoming an esport.

I don’t think it’s attempted to become an esport yet. They’re only just introducing leaderboards now, and they are working on observer mode. They want to eventually make it an esport, which is not what they focused on at launch.

No game keeps up with its pre launch hype, which is the problem with hype. Those who temper hype with a dose of reality aren’t disappointed. Those who allow hype to rule them are bound to be disappointed.

I mostly agree. I definitely agree with the hype thing though. I spent countless hours with GW1, followed GW2 development since the beginning. Needless to say I was beyond hyped, until I played it at a convention. I guess I had much higher expectations from the company that brought us GW1.

You’re a PvPer, clearly. I’m a Pve’er mostly. That makes a lot of difference in what you expect in the first place.

This game isn’t a great jump from Guild Wars 1 PvP to here. But for me anyway, it’s a huge step up in PVe.

Not really a PvPer per se, but an elitist of some sort. I am a very competitive person and liked to be pushed beyond my own capabilities. I find this in PvE and PvP depending on the game, which WoW was able to do extremely well. I guess I am really disappointed with the lack of competitive/exclusive content that could push myself and friends. As far as PvE goes, I couldn’t be pleased until we received WoW type raids, which I don’t expect, nor think belongs in this game. I am also really disappointed in the conquest mode that we have in PvP. Anet could add solo queue, leaderboards, ranking, spectator mode and perfect balance and I wouldn’t be happy because I just don’t find SPvP to be fun the way Anet has implemented it.
Honestly, the game simply isn’t for me. I have a difficult time accepting it though. I wait around lurking the forums with my negativity in hopes that something will happen to change my mind, but deep down I know that it will never happen.

But Anet said from day one they’d only have conquest to start and it’s what they promoed. I’m not sure why you expected anything else.

As for WoW style raids, I’d hate them. I hate the trinity, I hate being locked out of content because of gear, I hate the idea that the game encourages elitism.

We’re definitely coming at games from a different perspective. I’ve always been challenged enough in real life (competitive jobs mostly) that I don’t feel the need to be competitive in my down time.

Welcome to the game. Don’t listen to the naysayers (there are plenty of them). Also don’t expect quite the same stuff you see in other MMOs. There are some pretty big differences in Guild Wars 2.

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Everyone I know stopped playing the game completely. I’ve witness multiple guilds just die. Twitch viewers are lower than warhammer online some days and about about 20 times lower than games like runescape in viewers. Google searches have slowed down to match other “dead” mmos. Not to mention, NCsoft stock has actually consistently dropped since the release of GW2.

I guess the people I see on the server, pretty much everywhere, and the zergs in WvW must be completely imaginary. And it’s a whole lot more servers than Warhammer.

I think people who think the game is dying have no more evidence than people who think the game is thriving, but one thing for sure.

The forums get a lot of posts.

I’m not saying the game is dead, or unpopulated, i’m simply saying that I believe a ton of people have quit already. There could still be a few hundred thousand people still actively playing and you would without a doubt experience people everywhere. I just don’t think the game kept up with the hype. I also think people will call games that fail “another guild wars 2”, but mostly for its pathetic attempt at becoming an esport.

I don’t think it’s attempted to become an esport yet. They’re only just introducing leaderboards now, and they are working on observer mode. They want to eventually make it an esport, which is not what they focused on at launch.

No game keeps up with its pre launch hype, which is the problem with hype. Those who temper hype with a dose of reality aren’t disappointed. Those who allow hype to rule them are bound to be disappointed.

I mostly agree. I definitely agree with the hype thing though. I spent countless hours with GW1, followed GW2 development since the beginning. Needless to say I was beyond hyped, until I played it at a convention. I guess I had much higher expectations from the company that brought us GW1.

You’re a PvPer, clearly. I’m a Pve’er mostly. That makes a lot of difference in what you expect in the first place.

This game isn’t a great jump from Guild Wars 1 PvP to here. But for me anyway, it’s a huge step up in PVe.

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Everyone I know stopped playing the game completely. I’ve witness multiple guilds just die. Twitch viewers are lower than warhammer online some days and about about 20 times lower than games like runescape in viewers. Google searches have slowed down to match other “dead” mmos. Not to mention, NCsoft stock has actually consistently dropped since the release of GW2.

I guess the people I see on the server, pretty much everywhere, and the zergs in WvW must be completely imaginary. And it’s a whole lot more servers than Warhammer.

I think people who think the game is dying have no more evidence than people who think the game is thriving, but one thing for sure.

The forums get a lot of posts.

I’m not saying the game is dead, or unpopulated, i’m simply saying that I believe a ton of people have quit already. There could still be a few hundred thousand people still actively playing and you would without a doubt experience people everywhere. I just don’t think the game kept up with the hype. I also think people will call games that fail “another guild wars 2”, but mostly for its pathetic attempt at becoming an esport.

I don’t think it’s attempted to become an esport yet. They’re only just introducing leaderboards now, and they are working on observer mode. They want to eventually make it an esport, which is not what they focused on at launch.

No game keeps up with its pre launch hype, which is the problem with hype. Those who temper hype with a dose of reality aren’t disappointed. Those who allow hype to rule them are bound to be disappointed.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Sarrs.4831:

I don’t know if I’d say the game’s degraded, but I’d definitely say that Anet seems to be moving out of the park of what the game originally was. There are only a few pieces of content that they’ve put out since release that I can definitely say have improved the game, those being FotM and the holiday events, and even then FotM needed some iteration to get right.

snip

To me, it looks like ANet’s thinking “what patch feature can we slap ascended gear onto this time?” with every second patch, occasionally mixing it up with “let’s put in a timegate lol”. Admittedly, I’ve got a very limited data set, but you need to look at what they do, not what they say. What they’re doing?… Well, they added new weapon prefixes to the wuvwuv vendors, so I guess that’s a nice start, but no armors or Ascended gear. They changed the icons for light gear?… /shrug

Also maybe they should vet some of their bigger changes like the Quickness change before implementing them. A 50% nerf to the most popular elite in the game out of nowhere isn’t very nice.

So if you liked the original content, why do you feel you need ascended gear now. Most of my characters don’t have ascended gear and I do all the content in the game on them. The only thing you’d need ascended gear for, certainly at this point, is the higher levels of the fractals, and the fractals give you the gear you need to do them if you do them.

If you like the base game and you’re playing the base game, why do you insist you need to get ascended gear? Do you know how many people get laurels and just buy dye packs with them?

Ascended gear is simply the initial implementation of vertical progression. The power of the game will continue to progress vertically, because, well, that’s what vertical progression is. It doesn’t matter in the slightest whether you feel you need ascended gear or not. If you want to play the game over time you will follow the power curve. Vertical progression primarily is used for two things. One, to provide players with a sense of progression (necessary in any game) and two, to promote continued play. How does it promote it? Simple, it doesn’t really give you a choice. We are talking about the power level of the game. You can’t play the game, long-term, if you don’t perform the activities that keep you consistent with it. Here those activities are FotM, Dailies, Monthlies, and guild missions. Please educate yourself on this aspect of game design, it’s very well known, and stop spreading misinformation about it being optional.

Please educate yourself on this game, instead of taking crap from other games and making out like it’s the only option. I’m not spreading misinformation, but I suspect you are.

By the time this game REQUIRES ascended gear to do content, there will be enough ways to get it that it won’t be that much of a hardship. You can’t prove otherwise, at any rate, and I’m sure that’s what Anet has in mind.

They’ve made the roll out this slow for a reason. Your mind is so much on all the stuff you know from other games, you refuse to see that it can’t be any other way. That’s misinformation in and of itself.

Right now, no one knows what the future will bring…not me, and not you. We both have theories. I think my theory is more likely based on the situation as it stands now. You’re just guessing.

Maybe you’ve played so many MMOs you’re over-educated and like many over-educated people you believe you can’t be wrong. I’ve played a lot of MMOs too. I see a vast gulf between vertical progression here and vertical progression there. A lot of others see it too.

Too bad you don’t.

Yes, I have played other MMO’s but don’t consider myself over-educated. And, the issue at hand is a simple one. And, if you believe what Anet has said on the subject, we know what the future will bring. Vertical: the power level of the game will increase. Progression: it will continually increase over time. Vertical progression is vertical progression no matter how you implement it. It can be fast or slow, but it will always be vertical progression. One thing that can be said for certain with vertical progression, and a simple thought experiment should be all that’s necessary here, it is not optional.

Except that so far we have vertical progression and it is optional. A simple thought process is all that’s needed to see that. Anet will make it easy to get the stuff you need to play the game, mostly because the target audience for the game is casual.

If the target audience for the game was competitive, you’d have a much better chance of being right.

Fernling.1729:

Everyone I know stopped playing the game completely. I’ve witness multiple guilds just die. Twitch viewers are lower than warhammer online some days and about about 20 times lower than games like runescape in viewers. Google searches have slowed down to match other “dead” mmos. Not to mention, NCsoft stock has actually consistently dropped since the release of GW2.

I guess the people I see on the server, pretty much everywhere, and the zergs in WvW must be completely imaginary. And it’s a whole lot more servers than Warhammer.

I think people who think the game is dying have no more evidence than people who think the game is thriving, but one thing for sure.

The forums get a lot of posts.

Of the 80 or so people in my guild that started playing about 60 of them still play. Not all of them have stayed in the guild. Some moved to other guilds but still play. I know this because they’re still on my friend’s list.

Also at halloween you could use certain buffs to make Mad King Chests, which is what I ended up doing with all the buffs I wasn’t using. I’m saving them for the next time you can use them in the Mystic Forge…even if it’s next Halloween.

In Guild Wars 1, there used to be on the forums a place where devs explained balancing decisions when balance patches came out. I’d welcome something like this for Guild Wars 2, and frankly, can’t understand why it hasn’t been implemented.

Lightning.8397:

As a genuine question to satisfy my curiosity:

If ascended gear was removed entirely from FotM (agony replaced with an alternative mechanism to scale the difficulty) and replaced with exotics (to be redeemed with relics) with no better stats than prevailing exotics, how many of you would still run FotM daily because that’s majorly enjoyable and you loooove FotM?

-edit- asking because I saw comments on how FotM was the best addition and how it’s something better than dungeons overall.

I don’t run it daily now. I run it because it’s fun, though, yes. Would I run it as often as I do now? Probably not.

Doesn’t take away that fact that I still have fun when I run it and the same can’t be said for dungeons. I never found CoE fun or SE or CM. I didn’t particularly mind AC or TA, but I didn’t love them either.

There are fun aspects of each dungeon, but as a whole I didn’t enjoy them. I do enjoy fractals.